The Walk Family Podcast
The Walk Family Podcast is a show focused on biblical parenting (what the Bible says about parenting) and reaches all stages of life. Whether you are a new or experienced parent, we all make mistakes and wrestle through what being a godly mom or dad looks like in daily life. This podcast provides hope and encouragement through the Bible's teaching about being the parent God desires you to be.
The Walk Family Podcast
Dad Life: Where Coffee Is Essential But Jesus Is Everything
Three fathers sit down for an intimate conversation about the peaks and valleys of parenthood in this powerful exploration of fatherhood through the lens of faith. Lee Miles shares his evolution as a father of four, describing how each child brought unique challenges that revealed his own spiritual growth—from anxious over-providing with his first to peaceful trust by his fourth. "God, I got this," he reflects on his current mindset, "What I think and what I believe... Lord, you're so much more than that."
Ben Puckett offers a heartbreaking yet hope-filled perspective as he navigates being "a father to four but getting to be a father to one." After experiencing the loss of three children at different stages, he speaks candidly about parenting his six-year-old daughter while grieving, and how her questions about heaven create profound opportunities to share faith. His vulnerability illuminates the reality that fatherhood sometimes includes devastating loss.
The conversation delves into how marriage relationships transform after children arrive. Both men emphasize the importance of intentionally cultivating friendship with their wives amid the demands of parenting—whether through planned outings, shared activities, or simply creating space to connect beyond discussions about children. As Ben puts it, "I just want to feel like we're friends together."
At the heart of this episode lies a powerful reminder: "Good things will take from best things." The fathers discuss how easy it is for their identity to become wrapped up in fatherhood rather than in Christ, and how discipleship—not just discipline—creates opportunities to point children toward Jesus. This distinction becomes particularly poignant when walking children through difficult realities like death and loss.
Whether you're a new parent, a seasoned father, or someone walking alongside those experiencing the rollercoaster of parenthood, this conversation offers wisdom, comfort, and a reminder that even in seasons of despair, there remains an unshakable hope that transforms how we parent, love, and live.
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three for me was man. Will there be any of my wife to go around? It's like man. There's so much of my life that's pouring into these two. Is there enough of my wife to go around and just even feeling like man? This is going to be a game changer with number three and just again, just a lack of understanding and immaturity in the Lord's just providing over and above what we could ever expect. And so baby four is just like dude. God, I got this.
Speaker 1:Just getting into the rhythm of like man, what I, what I think and what I believe. Like Lord, you're so much more than that. You've already proven it out so many times, hey everybody.
Speaker 2:It's Tony, and welcome back to the Walk Family Podcast. I am bringing you a series titled Seasons of Despair, which focuses on different experiences of life, such as marriage, raising kids and loss of loved ones, and how people navigate those hardships. Laura and I bring to the table conversations from our own home, as well as introduce some guests sharing their stories. Everybody goes through trials and tribulations in life. Sometimes it feels we can't ever escape the pain that that brings. James 1, 2, and 3 says consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. This is easier said than done. Despair, by definition, is the loss or absence of hope. As a believer in Jesus, there is always that eternal hope we have, but sometimes we don't always feel like it exists. It's an incredibly challenging thing when we feel despair in this life, when we think there is no hope and all we experience is hurt and pain. My hope and my prayer is that this series will show that you are not alone in your moments of despair.
Speaker 2:Ladies and gentlemen, I want to just simply introduce a couple of really good friends of mine. We have Lee Miles and Ben Puckett, joining me for this special fatherhood interview, where we talk about just life as being a dad, but also the pain and the despair that we experience as well. So I just wanted to give them a warm introduction for you guys, all of you listeners out there, because I think this will be rich and rewarding and impactful for the time that you've just been listening. We are splitting this episode into two parts, so this is part number one as we dive into this final episode of Seasons of Despair. All right, ben, opening question what is your beverage of choice?
Speaker 3:Oh, okay. So Lauren got me an espresso maker. Ooh, and that's right. I'm drinking espresso with a little bit of hot water, so it's like a tiny little Americano at 630 at night.
Speaker 2:With caffeine.
Speaker 3:You're not an addict. An espresso with caffeine.
Speaker 2:I'm just the decaf.
Speaker 3:Did they have that?
Speaker 2:I don't know, I'm not entirely sure. That's a good question.
Speaker 3:I barely know how to use the espresso maker in the first place. Did I even put coffee in the thing?
Speaker 1:I'm not sure Something came out and it tastes decent.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's liquid in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so did you know. I know we're jumping in, but uh, did you know that I gave up caffeine? Did I about this? Uh, about six months were you big? Uh, yeah, it was a problem. So I mean, not like I wasn't crazy, but I'd had, it was normal for me to have like two to three cups of coffee a day.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to figure out, like why you like keep twitching all the time yeah, no kidding you gave that up two to three and you gave it up I had to, yeah, so, oh, that's right, you did I tell you about this, so I'm on your heart will explode yeah, well, not my, my veins. My blood pressure is through the roof, oh yeah that's right yeah, I didn't. I didn't tell you this. You might have an eye. Okay, it's okay.
Speaker 1:Some people know, some people don't, but I'm so sorry, but yeah, so can you do decaf. Oh yeah, I can do decaf just fine, do you still get the same like?
Speaker 2:so no, so I. So I got on blood pressure meds about a year and a half ago because it was outrageous and about it was 4th of July. 4th of July, I'm like, I'm done, Like I'm just, I think caffeine is just going to give me like it's going to be the end of me, and so even with the meds it was still high and so I cut it out and I've had two caffeinated beverages since then. That's it. Whoa, Actually, I lied, I did have one like a week and a half ago. So three since July 4th.
Speaker 3:Okay, Is this in the podcast what we're talking about right now?
Speaker 2:It doesn't have to be, but it can be.
Speaker 3:Okay, because I had a teacher in high school who had one story. He told stories all the time. Would not share this until you graduated. So we graduated, got coffee with him. He told us the story. He cut out caffeine. He went to some museum or something. He was always doing stuff like that had a Coke there and then leaves the museum, struggles not to poop his pants as he drives back to the hotel as fast as possible, not to poop his pants as he drives back to the hotel as fast as possible from a coat. Yeah, because I I don't know if it's like the caffeine or just the carbonation maybe or something, but like museum.
Speaker 1:What museum is this? I'm never going there, ever again.
Speaker 3:Yeah well I don't know, but yeah, he was like. He was like uh, long story short, I did not make it, and then he added to the story which I won't add here but that's hilarious so I'm wondering like is that dangerous territory? Yeah, I'm just kidding, I was the professor yeah, like you got, you got to cut class early.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so, but no, like I, I ended up giving it up because, well, the reason I say this is because I you said your espresso machines, like I can't live without it. Um, I thought the same thing, but getting off of caffeine, getting off of coffee, was much easier than I anticipated, and so that's good. Yeah, so if it ever comes to the point where you know you're you turn 35 and you have to, how dare you? How dare you?
Speaker 2:I've been thinking very well about 2025 so far, until you threw that out just now. That's, oh my god, sorry.
Speaker 3:I'm so sorry and first of all, it's not caffeine. It's not the caffeine I need. I mean, that's what all addicts say about whatever right, but yeah, it's, it's having something to sip on. It's I. I call coffee my best friend and it's not a joke. Coffee he's my best friend. I don't know, not a joke. Coffee is my best friend. I don't know if it's a he, but I can do all things through coffee. It strengthens me. That's what I say. And is that misquoting the Bible?
Speaker 2:Yes, we call people like that heretics. Yeah, my second question is, am I uncomfortable with it?
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, but do I still do it? Yes, sometimes.
Speaker 2:So let's um, as we're kind of like navigating. Yeah, let's jump into fatherhood. So, um, doesn't matter who starts. But I'm just curious as far as like an opening question you know what was your first experience of being a dad? You know how did it change you? Cause I think we can all agree that you know the first kid. Maybe we can't, but the first kid was like a drastic change, because you're now into fatherhood and for me that was the most powerful.
Speaker 1:So I'm just curious on your takes. I think this one, Ben, should tee up, especially in light of some of the new information you just shared.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, excuse the weird introduction of myself, I'd like to jump from kind of goofiness to sentimentality and back and forth. I would say it's a talent of mine. But you know, from right at the beginning, when I first met my daughter you know she's right out of the womb, Nurse, you know the cleaner up hand her to my wife, Uh, and she's so, she's on my wife's chest and the first thing that my daughter Emery does is she reaches out and she grabs my thumb and she's just got her little hand on my thumb. That's the first thing, uh, that she as she did in this life, you know, besides making her way out, I guess. But, um, that that is my most favorite experience I've ever had in my life and I mean, how do you top that? I tried to hold it over my wife, Like well, she grabbed my thumb before she even saw your thumb. So, like you know, big deal, but no, it was just like such an amazing moment.
Speaker 3:And then all the moments after, you know, of falling in love with this little baby who is somehow my daughter, but also looking at this little baby who's kind of just a really upset potato who seems to hate me for the first several weeks of her life. That's how I described her. That's how I still describe her, if necessary. It was hard, man, it was just to go from my life is my own and you think, you know, you get married, your life's not just your own anymore. I mean, your life's never fully your own, even if you're single, of course. But you start to be defined differently with these relationships, these covenant relationships, and then becoming a parent, and then you realize, like my life is not my own and that's a hard transition. Tony, you and I had a really good conversation one night a few weeks after Emery was born, where I just kind of needed someone to talk me through what I was experiencing and listen to what I was experiencing, and it was just, it was so helpful.
Speaker 2:I remember that was. It was in my house. I think I think you were here.
Speaker 3:I remember we talked on the phone once or maybe. Yeah, you're right, we had a couple conversations, um, but yeah, it's, it was tough, especially when Emery was born. To get specific, I guess she was born in, uh, november, and all my memories of that time it's just. It was dark, it was cold, we were in my little apartment, it was isolating, it was difficult, um, and then summer came and everything was better, and I don't remember anything from that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, seasonal depression.
Speaker 2:But I remember, I remember those conversations because, like, honestly, that was one of the, so that conversation that we had, whether it was on the phone, I remember we had one in my living room Well, I guess now dining room but you were, you're about to leave. I don't remember if you were here for like a game night or we had. Is this Pokemon night? No, well, no, that was years before. Do you remember the council? Yeah, yeah, so I wonder if it was after that. It was like a little gathering. It was like Lord of the Rings. It was like a gathering of people. We just talked about scripture and different passages and stuff.
Speaker 1:It was it was really cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was like getting ready to take the ring back to Mordor, I guess, but anyway, like the point is like that conversation was like hey, like you would talk to somebody where it was like they're not having any issues and you guys had kids at about the same time having any issues, and you guys had kids about the same time, and you're like, oh I'm, I'm struggling. Like nobody feels this, like nobody feels this anxiety or this frustration or this anger. And I remember talking about it's like do I feel those things all the time, like it's normal?
Speaker 2:yeah because we felt led by the lord to do something. It's like people just need to know that they're not alone yeah I think that was the biggest thing that was so helpful.
Speaker 3:I do remember that conversation. Of course, I just couldn't remember the timing of like was Emery born at that point? But yeah for sure, that's one of the things I tell brand new parents and it's kind of an interesting. It's not like a social experiment, it's just something I like to share with two new parents, um, and just kind of see how they react. Um, you know, especially if it's been like a month or just a few weeks or whatever I'll, I'll say like, hey, it's okay If you're struggling, like it's okay If you put your baby down and your baby's screaming.
Speaker 3:A screaming baby is a living baby. That's fine. And you need to go in the bathroom and turn the shower on for a couple of minutes, like the baby will be fine. You know, like that kind of thing. Uh, noise canceling headphones I won't judge you, you know stuff like that. Um, so I'll share a couple of things like that. And some people are like, ah, it's been fine. Yeah, this is the best thing in my whole life and I'm like that's great. Um, I, some people I'm like I don't know if you're telling me the truth. Some people I'm like, yeah, I, I think you're like just needing to hear that affirmation and be like it's okay, it's hard, it's hard, yeah, it's good, it can be both, you know. All right, lee, I've talked way too much.
Speaker 1:No, I had a great coaching tip from a missionary family. It was the wife. They have six kids, all in Papua New Guinea. So they were all born in Papua New Guinea. So they were all born in Papua New Guinea. So kind of not the easiest place to have children, raise children.
Speaker 1:And I was just telling her this was probably baby, it's probably our second child, second or third, and I just told her I was like man Verity, I want to say it was Verity because she had this little season where she just was not sleeping. Well, I was like man, she is just not sleeping. So we're running on fumes. Here she goes, you know, with my fourth child, the third child, whatever it was.
Speaker 1:We had the same thing and I really felt like the Lord was prompting me to wake up and pray right when I wake up, wake up as the baby wakes me up and then start with prayer and praying specifically being thankful and so like finding everything that she could give thanks for. And so she was like I would encourage you to maybe try it if you're having this like little season right here and you're just waking up and you're having to go through this and you're kind of struggling through that I was like man, that's such a good point. And my mom just recently has been going through a study of thankfulness and she was just sharing that same thing as well. Very similar vein of just in all things to be thankful but being super prayerful through all these moments, with starting with thankfulness and the focus on thankfulness. And you see so much of that with the self-help stuff that has nothing to do with Christianity but, yet are still adopting a lot of the things that we see in scripture that are very successful.
Speaker 1:They'll draw success in so many areas of our life. And seeing a thankful heart, even even when it's not focused on christ, a thankful heart, how it starts to then respond and get the focus off of self and onto other things um but, man, when it's rooted with christ, it's sustainable and gives us so much more sustenance, so to speak. So, um, so, but as you guys say that, I was just thinking, oh man, I remember her sharing that and how it was such a great pro tip. I was like, oh man, I'm sure somebody shared that at one point in my life, but, man, I needed to hear that right now, and so that was one of my go-to things looking through some of the stuff that we're gonna talk about.
Speaker 1:I was like oh man, that's one of my go-to things. That was so helpful.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad Cause like one of the hardest things for me is sleep deprivation. Like my attitude, my mood, like everything is negative when you know I'm being woken up again for the fourth time and it's weeks on end and it's just never ending. It's like, yeah, I don't really want to pray for you, I want to kick you through the window, like it just drives me crazy. But like bringing back to bringing the concept back to like Christ and focusing on him and what he's given you as a gift, it's like it starts to slowly starts to turn your mindset a little bit to where. It's like, okay, god has given me this gift, god has given me this daughter to take care of, and she's eight months old. She doesn't know what's going on, she's completely clueless, but to interject and pray for her, go to the Lord on behalf of this crying infant. It's like, yeah, it's powerful, yeah, such a good turning point for her. Go to the Lord on behalf of this crying infant.
Speaker 1:It's like, yeah, it's powerful. Yeah, Such a good turning point for me with the other kids to come, because Noble wasn't much. I'm pretty sure this was Verity, but Noble wasn't much better with Sleepy, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So was that so kind of to bounce into another question, like what were some surprises? Like that seems like there's some negative surprises, but what's some of the biggest surprises as you entered fatherhood?
Speaker 1:man that's. That's such a good question. So, baby one, surprised with my response, I again, if I could have us go and interview Lee Miles of 10 years ago with Iris, I did not think this but now reflecting upon it, I've felt like, man, I need to provide so much, which is an aspect of that is correct in stewarding that. But there was this level of taking it so much farther, of the Lord's going to provide. Even if I fail as a father, the Lord's still going to provide. You know what I mean. But I was just going above and beyond and more and more hours of work.
Speaker 1:At the time it didn't feel like worry or anxiousness, um, but there was now reflecting on it was.
Speaker 1:It was just a lack of faith, some immaturity and just who the Lord is and his promises and his faithfulness, um, so maybe one was like so hyper-focused on providing okay, man, I got to provide the business, the businesses have to be at this level, I need this much in the bank account and again at that moment I felt like I was not, I was doing the right thing.
Speaker 1:And so, baby one was definitely more of a focus on providing and again, I think there's a level of that. That's absolutely. There was probably some aspect of that where the Lord's like dude, you got, you got some stuff that I want you to be working on, but then taking it past that, which is so for me, I can only speak for myself on this, but that's so often the Lord's nudging and prodding and I'm wrestling through something and and start to do it well, and then start to bring my own stupid flesh into that, um, and spend that some of those things out of control very easily. So, um, baby, baby two was can I love this child as much as I loved the first one?
Speaker 1:Like it just seems so weird Like man and I've I've heard other parents share this as well and just thought that it's just so silly. But then having that feeling of like man if we are having that second baby, like I only have enough love for this first one and I can't even see like having this other one come into that and talking to some other parents about that and just hearing their responses like okay, well, man, I cannot see that right now, but, um, but that was just a different, unique struggle. Um, number three for me was man, will there be any of my wife to go around? It's like man. There's so much of my life that's pouring into these two. Um, is there enough for my of my wife to go around and just even feeling like man? This is going to be a game changer. With number three and just again, just a lack of understanding and immaturity in the Lord's just providing over and above what we could ever expect. And so baby four is just like dude.
Speaker 2:God, I got this Just getting into the rhythm of like man, what I think and what I believe.
Speaker 1:like dude, god, you got this Just getting into the rhythm of like man, what I, what I think and what I believe. Like Lord, you're so much more than that. You've already proven it out so many times so yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I um, yeah, Ben, nobody wants to hear from me. I want to hear from you like surprises.
Speaker 3:Um, well, for me, I'm I'm thinking, uh, thinking very specific to my story. I can share those details, if that's okay. So we had baby number one, prayed for the most normal pregnancy that could possibly happen, and we seem to have gotten it. Everything was completely normal, nothing was wrong. We went in, had the baby, came home. Emery was great. She is still great, so she's six now.
Speaker 3:In April of 2021, we had a chemical miscarriage, or chemical pregnancy I'm not a huge fan of that term, but a very early miscarriage and so that was. I don't know what was that nine weeks or something like that carriage and so that was. I don't know what was that nine weeks or something like that. And then, in March of 2023, we lost our son, atticus, at 39 weeks and five days, no apparent reason for that. Just literally went in that day for an appointment to check the heartbeat and everything and it was like good to go, like when he's ready, he's coming, and later that day, no more heartbeat and found out he was gone. And then, february of 2024, lost our son, samuel at 15 weeks, again no apparent reason for that. We've since named our son or daughter, riley for the chemical pregnancy that we had in 2021.
Speaker 3:So it's weird having four kids but one with me. So I am a father to four but I get to be a father to one and that is still just an amazing honor and privilege to be Emery's dad. I love it every day, amazing honor and privilege to be Emery's dad. I love it every day and she's enough. But I was looking forward to being a father to my other kids.
Speaker 3:And so the surprise to answer that question is you don't think like, what if this goes really poorly? What if it goes really well and it goes really poorly? You know, and this happens to so many people, I've come to realize, as it's happened to me and as I've shared and gotten to know other people, just how common loss is in all different stages of pregnancy and after you know, early after birth as well. So that was a big surprise of like. Ok, it's not just what am I like as a parent, it's like what am I like as a parent who's lost children? What am I like as a parent? It's like, what am I like as a parent who's lost children? What am I like as a father to my, my living child, while grieving a husband to my wife, while I'm grieving, just a faithful Christian man dealing with, like, some of the worst experiences you could have. You know, yeah, not not to like drop a bomb on the podcast, but I mean that's that's to like drop a bomb on the podcast.
Speaker 2:But no, I mean that's that's part of why we're having the conversation, cause people don't, people don't think about that. And you know kind of a follow up when you say you know, I'm a, I'm a father of four, but one is with me. Like when you tell people that, like, how do they respond? Like, was it with confusion or is it with, like you know, sadness or what's the yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 3:I have not been able to share it the way I just shared. It was probably the best I've ever done, actually For the longest time after losing Atticus. It was just so hard to talk about it with people, with people who knew and people who didn't know. And so if people you know, people always ask that question how many kids do you have? I typically will just say one, but if it's someone that you know, I've been growing a relationship with or could have continued relationship with, I'll try to share in some way. That's a hard thing to do, kind of in passing, oh yeah, one, living in ways like, wait, what you know? It confuses people. But then you also have those conversations where people go oh, how old is your daughter? Oh, six, you're going to have more kids. Like what the heck Six that's old. And it's like, bro, you don't even know.
Speaker 3:I try not to ask people. It's hard, being in a ministry, I think it's just like there's so many families around. It's natural to say how many kids you have, whatever, and it's a pretty harmless question. So if I ever ask that which I try not to much these days, but I try not to push too hard. But I also notice little reactions in people's faces, in their eyes. If I ask a question like that and it's like a little harder to say, it doesn't come out as quick or something. But yeah, when I share it with people it's hard. It's so much that it kind of it's a bit of a gut punch for some people. I have some volunteer leaders at church I've been getting to know lately and I've tried to share it with them. I recently went to a new campus so I'm meeting a lot of new people and I'm like, well, I want to have meaningful relationships with these people. So I'm sharing my story and it's a heavy thing but I think people feel pretty honored to to hear that. I guess.
Speaker 3:I think people really have a hard time figuring out what to say and I try to kind of let people off the hook for that. I'm like it's you don't have to cause people feel like they have to say something and you'll hear all kinds of things. A woman came up to me. I'm not from like a Southern tradition, but bless this woman's heart. She did not mean this. She asked if my wife was feeling better after we lost her son atticus, and, and then she, she had this face of just like why did I just say that? Like what? What was I thinking um? And so you kind of see, like people care, but they don't know how to care, necessarily. That was a really long answer to a simple question oh, that's good.
Speaker 2:That's good so as a kind of a follow-up. So when you well, this kind of goes for both of you to some extent, ben, you might answer it a little bit different, but I'm curious to know how your relationship with your wife, lauren, had changed, but also the relationship with the people that you interacted with changed. To kind of bounce off of that too. Like, how did your relationships change after you had your kids, and was it different, you know, for every kid, or was it different, kind of the same? So, ben, since kind of you were, you're alluding to this a little bit, we'll start with you, then jump over to Lee. But how did, how did your relationship with Lauren change when you had Emery? And then how has that changed with the loss over the next three?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think, um, I'll answer that with something in common for both it's. It's so easy to have your, your child, your children, become the topic of conversation all the time, like you get that rare date night, you get to go out to dinner or something and you're just talking about your kids which there's nothing wrong with that, obviously but your life becomes so revolved around your kids that you have to intentionally focus on yourself, obviously, and focus on your spouse in a way that you just didn't have to do as intentionally before. You should always intentionally focus on your spouse, of course, but there's just more demand on you that's taken away, taken away focus that you have. So, similarly, with our losses, it seems like grief is what we talked about all the time for the longest time, and it was helpful for my wife to process it and for me it was only helpful in certain circumstances. I had to open myself up a little more to that and she had to kind of choose moments a little better. So we kind of had to meet in the middle there.
Speaker 3:But at the same time, I was like I just I want to be friends with you again and, yeah, like romantic as well and stuff like that and focus on just the two of us in that way. But I was like I married my best friend it. It feels like we're carrying so much together. I just want to feel like we're friends together and we've been able to do that in some, uh, special moments. We went on a trip this year. My parents her parents came and took care of emory and it was probably spent more than we should have, but we had a blast. I just felt like I was hanging out with my friend again. It was was just a phenomenal. So, yeah, similar answers for both, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, lee. How about you Ben real quick? Can I ask a question?
Speaker 2:Yeah, go for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Ben, what, um, what have you found has helped with building that friendship, rebuilding the friendship? Well, I actually let me rephrase that what helped building the friendship and what's helped rebuilding the friendship?
Speaker 3:That's a great question. So I do this. I don't need to answer it this long, but I'm going to. I do this like premarital work, at church, with people, and there's this question of like, how do you bond, Like, how do you build your friendship? This exact thing.
Speaker 3:And for the guy it's always like shared activity, some kind of shared activity, and for the woman it's feeling like cherished. That seems to be I don't even know if there's other options for the genders, but that seems to be it. And like I have to figure out what makes her feel cherished. Right, but then figuring out like what was a shared activity that we could do? There's one one day where I was like we that we could do. There's one day where I was like we should go play miniature golf, just the two of us. I haven't done that in 50 years, I don't know, but I was like that just seems like a fun activity where it's not us sitting on the couch watching TV because it's been a long day, which sometimes that's cool and laughing at a show is fun, but doing some kind of activity.
Speaker 3:And for us we like exploring and so going to different, even just different, towns nearby. It doesn't have to be just her and I. It could be with our daughter too. So the trip I mentioned we went to Ireland and it felt like every day was just an adventure. It was where are we going today? What are we doing today? And we just got to experience it, Like we'd go experience something and then go talk about it. Yeah, sometimes when we just sit down for a meal, it's like we talk about whatever's present. So it might just be grief, it might be what's Emory up to, what do we need to do as parents, and stuff like that. But when you're experiencing something together, even just like, I don't know, playing darts at a brewery or something that just helps for me, I'd be curious if you have any answers for you and your wife.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for you and your wife. Yeah, I think a common thing that you're saying that has helped on ours is time together, but um, not just which again hanging out at the house and hanging out at the house and uh and just um, watching a show or something like that, that's, that's great, but not making that the okay.
Speaker 1:This is always the norm, this is always how we have to spend time. But finding different ways to spend time, um, I I've noticed with with kayla, when I plan something and it's like man, I've got a lot of intention behind this and what we're going to do, and I have like an agenda pre-made and I'm sending her a spreadsheet of here's the time slots, here's what's. Oh, man, that's, oh, that's, that's just huge for her, cause she's like, oh, dude, this guy, this guy cares. That was the buildup for friendship. And so, like that was like the big thing. Cause she was just like, wow, this is like you've really thought out this stuff.
Speaker 1:And then that was the um, maybe not so much rebuilding but keeping that friendship, and so that's been kind of a routine thing for for me throughout the year is having at least some some type of an event and she gets that little agenda. It's pre-planned and some things there. So that's been special for us.
Speaker 3:Okay, so that's what you mean by a spreadsheet like an itinerary kind of thing yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, I was really stuck on that. I love that.
Speaker 3:That's super cool, like that's. That's some like added intentionality to an intentional time. I love that. That's really cool. Yeah, my wife would be like, why'd you do this? It's just for me.
Speaker 1:I'm sure Kayla thought that when we first, when I first did like. Now she's like hey, are you sending me over kind of like a breakdown of everything that's happening? Like yep, I got it, yeah, so I think there's some expectation on that now, but yeah, I would agree with you. That would be a common thread, which I see that biblically as well, like the Lord's involvement with us and his pursuit and dedication. And then again, what we focus on is really where our heart's going to be at.
Speaker 1:And so if we're focusing that attention on our spouse and having that be a key critical thing of like man, my friendship with you is so critical and being prayerful about that. Lord man prompt me, give me guidance on this, and I think there's going to be some big success pieces on that part there. So that's good. I'm glad that. Well, I kind of threw that question out. So I don't know if I segwayed too far away from where you're going with that.
Speaker 1:No you're fine, totally fine. I was pulling back up to your question. So, um, how did your relationship with your wife change after becoming parents? Uh, ben, you hit on the dot where it just was talking about the kids. So often, still, my client's pre-kids was always talking about what's going on in my life. Then, with Kayla, I was like, oh, what's happening with you and your wife? And then now it's almost always about the kids. They rarely ever ask about me or Kayla. They always ask about the kids, especially if they got a chance to connect with one of them or all of them. Then they're always asking. So, um, yeah, I see that that would be the change, ben. I would definitely second you that if our identity gets wrapped up in fatherhood, being a husband or anything outside of Christ, fatherhood being a husband or anything outside of Christ, that a good thing can take from a best thing where, all of a sudden, best being Jesus at the center and everything stems from that, everything pours out from that, then again good things will take from best things.
Speaker 3:Dang, that's a good line right there. If I was listening to this podcast, I would write that one down. That's good. Did you come up with that yourself?
Speaker 1:No, no, no, everything you're going to hear is from somebody else, so I'm a great Robin and duplicating. So no, actually it's from, uh, uh, butch Bennett. Um, so, gordon Bennett teaches at, uh, ethnos three, 60 or used to um for many, many years, but, um, that was something he shared with me maybe five or six years ago and, uh, we were just talking about ministry work and different things, and I don't remember the full context of everything that we were covering there, but he just he hit on like man don't like good things, take from the best thing, and uh, he was just referencing particularly ministry, take from the best thing.
Speaker 1:And uh, he was just referencing particularly ministry. But I was like dude, that applies to everything in life because oh, so much, man so much, and he's like man. I've had, I've had to really work in that and through all aspects of my life, is that good things not taken from best things? Oh, I do remember, um, one of the things we were talking about different ministries, that, um, we're talking about well digging in Africa. I don't remember how it came up, but he's like man, that's great. That's great Is the gospel message being shared. And so then he segued into in his line of work. He's like man, I've seen so many good things take from best things. And there's this outlet or there's this focus point that should be the catalyst to the gospel message being shared, and yet the gospel message isn't being shared, which I've, and I didn't plan this, but I think that's such a good segue with our kiddos is
Speaker 1:that being intentional with our time. I had a father just yesterday tell me that he was listening to a podcast and it said for every kid you have, you should spend an hour a day um pouring into their life to keep that bond solid. And so he then segued into um like I want my kids to be spoiled but, but not spoiled rotten. And then he was talking about them being provided for and it was a lot of. It was like monetary focus, so like each one of them is going to have a house when they reach 18, reach age 18 and all these different things about money, which, in my line of work, that it makes sense. And he's a fellow brother in Christ. And I said, and I would want to go one step further, and I know this is where your thought process is, but I just want to say also that the number one thing is that they have a friendship with Jesus.
Speaker 1:He's all yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, and I was like so you're hour a day with them. Each of them has, like man. The bulk of that should be how do we focus them back towards Jesus, that friendship that he is so much more important than anything in this?
Speaker 2:role. So yeah, well, I think that's. I like that. Oh sorry, you're good, you're good.
Speaker 3:I? I like that a lot because it doesn't just happen with your spouse, it can happen with your faith. Uh, like it. It's these things that become assumed Like I love my wife, our relationship's good. That can become an assumption when you're focusing so much on your kids and the same thing with your faith, right, you're so focused on the kids, especially keep adding kids, like it gets crazy. But your assumption is I'm good, like I believe in Jesus, I believe all the right things, and it's like, yeah, but are you actively, intentionally focused on your relationship with God, your relationship with your spouse? And it is tough to throw out all those things like, okay, I have to be this and I have to do this, and that's kind of the wrong way to put the pressure I love. Going back to your previous point, those are all things to be thankful for and all things that you can receive as blessing.
Speaker 2:Right, Well, and I think so kind of a segue into the next question, right, is you talk about how we can essentially stay connected with each other? And one of the questions that I wanted to talk about was how do we, how do we stay connected or how do you connect with your children. But I'm going to, I'm going to up it a little bit. It's like how, how do you find ways to connect with your children, but having Jesus at the center of that connection? So loaded question, but I'm just curious on your thoughts on your thoughts um.
Speaker 1:So quick response on that would be in discipline, so like in training, in the, the raising up process, and pointing them to christ, is really making it a focus on fellowship. This, this part that we're just talking about, chatting about, on friendship, and that fellowship with with Jesus has now been broken. So in this, this broken fellowship right now is we need to get back into fellowship with Christ and and trying not to blow up, this has been my I don't know two year journey of indiscipline, pausing and I got this from Pastor Chris but pausing and working back through this piece here of this friendship with Jesus. Our fellowship has now been broken. So we've got some broken fellowship, that's just happened. And now let's get back into fellowship and relating that back to hey, you just smacked your brother or whatever. Um has happened and so your fellowship is broken. We got to make this right. Unity needs to come into this relationship that you have with your sibling right now. We need to make this right and so spending time to be intentional and, ben, I like what you're saying earlier on not assuming. Not assuming like hey, this is my sibling or this is my spouse, or this is my friend or this is whatever, and like, hey, we're, we're still going to be friends, we're still going to be husband and wife, we're still going to be that. No, I need to be very, um, hypersensitive on this fellowship not being broken and unity being the thing. So that's been a little bit of a two-year journey for me.
Speaker 1:In parenting is in a discipline, or really probably rephrase that as more like discipleship, and discipleship that's probably the better way of phrasing that. But in the discipleship process is a hypersensitivity on Jesus, our friendship, and then God and our identity with God is that we're not doing anything more or less to make God see us any different. He sees Jesus, but Jesus, we have fellowship, friendship. There's something unique in that relationship. There. God's just seen Jesus, seen the blood of Christ, over and over and over, repeating that Now your fellowship with Jesus has now been broken.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's get back in unity. He's not looking at you and saying, man, you little knucklehead, I want nothing to do with you. That is not his fellowship, that's not his response to the broken fellowship. It is ushering that back in, calling us back in and just making that so evident at a young age and using the family immediate dynamic that has been broken, the fellowship that's been broken as an example to then. Okay, we got to make this right and foremost, most important, making this next, this, this key friendship fellowship be repaired which is just like man repenting coming back.
Speaker 1:He just wants to usher us back in. Yeah, it's like man repenting coming back. He just wants to usher us back in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like man come back in, come back. Well, I love how you, how you said it. Like you, you started using the word discipline and then you switched it to discipleship. It's like so often when, when dads specifically talk about discipline, like often think of like oh, you got to spank your kid or oh, you got to put them in timeout. It's like all of like this hard, like okay, you messed up, Now it needs to be corrected, process, which there's an element of truth in that. But usually when people say the word discipline, it's usually negative, but really what it's getting at, it's like what's, what's the heart behind it? And it's this how are you disciplining your kid? But it's how are you discipling your kid to go back to Jesus?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because if you're, you are drawing them to something Right In any way, be it knowingly or unknowingly, your parenting is drawing them to something. Are you drawing them to yourself? Are you drawing them to somebody else? Are you drawing them or pushing or drawing? You're pointing them in some direction. What direction are you going to point them that they're going to fall back to? That? These foundational learning moment like these are the foundational building blocks that are happening in their life right now. Secular side would agree with that as well, like in our house right now, we're establishing these foundational pieces that they're going to carry for the rest of their lives. So they will choose on their own where they're going to go. But now you get this moment that you are teaching them the method of pointing in a certain direction.
Speaker 1:We talked about that with your pull-up bar. Yeah, walking right through your front door, there's a pull-up bar right there. I'm like oh man, this is so on brand for the Smith family. It's like fitness is right here. It's like this is the norm. Kids, you're going to work out, mom and dad work out. You're working out, you're doing something active, but making the same, pointing to Christ. That's the norm, the norm is unity, friendship with Christ.
Speaker 2:Ben, it's kind of loaded. So if you remember going back to like the original question, like how do you connect with your kids but also connecting them to Christ, Is there a thought, is there a process behind what you do that with Emory, how you do it, et cetera. Just kind of leave that open.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I came to terms with the fact early on that, as a witness of Christ to my daughter it's active and it's passive, but it's always happening right. And so in moments I'm not proud of I try to use those moments Like maybe I raise my voice a little too much and I just have a conversation with her where I think a lot of it might be going over her head. But hopefully she gets this idea that, like dad has a value system that's defined by jesus and dad is not happy with the way he acted because of his belief in jesus. Like these are all things I mean. Hopefully subconsciously she's connecting dots like this, but also like I love exploring the world with Emery, um, helping her understand things. Uh, I love when she asks me questions and I'm like two words into the explanation. I'm like I have no idea what I'm talking about. I tried to explain like condensation to her the other day as we were driving to school and I was like uh, I was like are you smarter than a fifth grader?
Speaker 1:I was at one point.
Speaker 3:I was at one point, but we one point. But you were a fifth grader, we were, yeah, that's right. When I was six, right, yeah, uh, so, yeah, I just I love getting to see the world through her eyes, but also seeing faith through her eyes, and I I was really frustrated at first when it felt like her understanding of religion, faith, faith, jesus was going to be hijacked by the loss of her siblings, right, but it actually opened up all kinds of conversations and questions that she had to that were. Some of them were really hard for Lauren and I to to talk about. They kind of felt like little knives, kind of like that question hits us because we're grieving, but if we kind of let it hit us and then also like lean into it, it could be a really powerful moment.
Speaker 3:For instance, this is just last night I think it was the fifth time she called me into her room and I was just like what is it going? Like I'm going to go in there and I'm going to shut this down, like absolutely not, I'm not turning your light on again or whatever, no more books. Like it's bedtime, and she just looks up at me and she says where's heaven? I was like I don't know if this is some kind of tactic Cause you know that I'm going to like get down on my knees and like have a conversation with you at your bedside because I love this but that she's asked a few questions like that, and I think that is where where I feel like I've succeeded somewhat already in the fact that she's thinking about those things enough to ask them, that she trusts me to ask them and that it uh, tony, you like Harry Potter? Right, you're big, you're big, harry Potter nerd. Sorry, I do.
Speaker 2:I got coffee mugs for all four houses.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, that's what I thought I. I was pretty sure that was something in your house, so this is for you, okay, this analogy it's like you know the game with the brooms, quidditch. Is that right the golden?
Speaker 2:The snitch.
Speaker 3:The golden snitch.
Speaker 2:No, that's right.
Speaker 3:He's so close.
Speaker 2:He's like what is Harry Potter?
Speaker 1:No, we like Harry Potter too, but I'm just dying with Ben's way of breaking this down.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry I interrupted it's been a minute.
Speaker 3:It's been a minute since I've been in the world. But, like, you're about to get that snitch. Oh my gosh, it's right there. It's right there. That's like when she, when she asks a question like that, when she asks a if it's grief centered, like like will I die someday and will I go to heaven, like something, something like that. Like it's like, wow, that's really hard, but but I'm like, okay, we're, this is some very valuable. But also, um, I don't know, there's some territory I want to be in, but I want to be in it very carefully. Right, I want to walk it very carefully. But also encourage her. Be like this is a great question, thank you for asking. And and not just be like well, let me like. Well, ephesians 2 says she's like Ephesians, what now? Like, yeah, invite her into those things. Man, that's huge If I can get anything like that to take full advantage, to lovingly embrace it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, ben, we had a miscarriage it was midterm as well um for our actual fourth, so our our fourth child. I call it fourth child. That's really our fifth child, um and I. I just think I'm so glad you hit on that that drawing our kids into and I've got a little segue on this one, if you don't mind but, drawing our kids into the reality of life is.
Speaker 1:This is not it. We're just passing through this and just talking through the reality of that and yes, it is sad, it's extremely sad. Sin is sad. Death being ushered in by sin coming in is so sad. Death being ushered in by sin coming in is so sad. But how the Lord is judo-moved, that you know what I mean. Like he has spun that grief into hope and just the beauty of teaching our kids that. Oh, that is so incredible. I remember and you guys might disagree with me on this, so feel free to even throw that out there and you can cut this out of the podcast if you feel necessary.
Speaker 1:I'm going to leave it, let's see Okay, Well, you're going to leave it. Um nope.
Speaker 2:It's bad here, Jake.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I unplugged myself. Oh, you're good. Okay, for my, my two oldest kids, um, with our size of our clientele base, this is a reoccurring thing being asked to come to a funeral and be involved with that season of this family's life. And so and I've brought the two oldest um to multiple funerals and I've had some parents say what are you kidding me? Like, oh, you just damn it. One of them said you just damaged, you, damn it. There's so much therapy you're gonna owe that child.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in my immediate response was I, I disagree and um, I think death is, is natural, and I think, ben, you said going into it, uh, I don't remember exactly the wording, but it was like being careful and as you walk into those conversations and being and I would add to that as being very prayerful that the Lord is working through all of these moments, all of these just really hard, hard, harsh times that we go through, but he's working through all of them, that he is so amazing, he's so out of this world that he can work through this, the most difficult times of our lives, and so drawing our kids into that and letting them see that the lord is still good sometimes we can see, it's like obvious, it's very overt and sometimes it's hard to see it, but still talking through those things which takes time, which goes back, the greatest discipleship opportunity that you'll have outside of your wife, in that relationship with your wife and as a husband to the wife, but outside of that you're never going to live.
Speaker 1:Highly unlikely in the American culture that you're going to live 24-7 for 18-plus years potentially with another human outside of your marriage. In the American culture it's just so rare that we're going to have that, but we get that opportunity with our kiddos. So, but anyways, that that little segue there. You, if you feel free to cut that out.
Speaker 2:No, that's good. I just um, what I thought thought was taking a serious moment and turning it somewhat humorous that the the lady who confronted you about bringing your kids to a funeral, that your your first reaction was saying yeah, I disagree, like gently. I'm like, if a lady comes up to me and tells me what I did wrong and that my kids are going to be in therapy, I'm like girl, like so help me. Like kids are going to be in therapy. I'm like girl, like so help me like we're going to throw down wow, that was.
Speaker 2:That was scary, tony. I'm sorry. I just told you that video. That was frightening. I was waiting for lee to say something like, yeah, he's gonna just throw fists and he's just like no I'm gonna, I'm gonna approach this with grace and mercy, with gentleness.
Speaker 1:I'm like man.
Speaker 3:I would like to tackle this woman. That's just Lee, so beyond Lee Miles.
Speaker 1:So, beyond Lee Miles, Well, the the interesting Ben, how old are you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, 35. Cause Tony talks about I'm 35 this year, you know. I'm approaching 35 and it's it's coming to an end.
Speaker 2:here I got you, you got a little time, you got some time. It's 35.
Speaker 1:So you and I both had kids a little bit older in life, so you've been 29.
Speaker 3:Okay. So 29 when you had Emory. Wait, I've been 29?.
Speaker 1:No, you were 29 when you had Emory. Am I getting that right, oh?
Speaker 3:sorry, oh 28. Sorry, I sorry, I'm 34. Tony made me think I was 35. He's got a whole extra.
Speaker 2:Yeah, another podcast, let me go, please. Should we cut all that out? Lee, I'm 34, there you go. He's got another year before he has to cut out coffee that's great.
Speaker 1:So you and I both had kids at my. I had iris at 30 and so, yeah, so having them later on is there. So so much, at least for me. I can't speak for Ben on this, but so much life had happened, um, versus my friends that had kids and teenagers or early twenties, is a lot of life happened between those earlier ages to having them having them a little bit late twenties, early thirties, those earlier ages to having them having them a little bit late twenties, early thirties. So, um, it's just something I was thinking about. It's just, uh, again, I feel like the Lord.
Speaker 1:Um had that original question of um the first child coming in, as being so excited of like man I am.
Speaker 1:I'm feeling like man, I need to start having some kids, or I'm going to be like 60 years old and still changing some diapers here. Um, so, feeling a little bit of that, and one of my brothers had put that he's like man, you better start having some kids, cause it's going to be hard getting on your knees and playing with them the way that you like to play with kids. I know I was like hey, get out of here. But, um, but that, but not wrong. Yeah, exactly Exactly. I was thinking like, oh man, we, we do have to have some kids. Um, but age wise, that the Lord had me in a different season of life to uh Lee having kids at 19, 20, 21 and 19,. Not even walking closely with the Lord. I was a totally different area. So the transformation process that he had brought me through in that 10, 11 year window before giving me the opportunity to have a kid, um, just what a, what a?
Speaker 1:difference, that is.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I actually want to talk about that, but Ben, go for it.
Speaker 3:Sorry, yeah, Just kind of finish that it's. It's not the idea of taking your kids to a funeral. That's the good idea, right, it's is walking with them in that experience, and that's you right.
Speaker 3:If you're 22 and you just go. This seems like a good idea, but you have no idea how to actually walk them through the experience, right versus being 34 and having a little more maturity to be able to guide them through that in a way that explains our world, how it's broken, how it's sinful, what death is, what life's supposed to be, what our hope is like, and that's that's. I think it's so simple for that woman to be like. This is damaging to them, but in reality, the question should be like are you walking, uh, are you walking through this with them? Well, yes.
Speaker 3:And you're like yeah, yeah, I'm doing my best. Yeah, which makes sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, which makes sense on her response, because of how she would have walked a person through the funeral process or the death process. Um, so yeah, not that again, that's where her season of life is at, and versus the area that the Lord had me at at that moment. So, um, but yeah, that's a interesting segue.
Speaker 2:So thanks for letting me oh no, it's fine, I actually, I want to. I want to actually talk about that for a second. This could be a side, a side note, but cause I had, I had kids, my daddy was born, my first was born, I was 23. And so like when I think about yeah, I know exactly, it's like I remember that I was like.
Speaker 3:I was like Tony, you got married and had a kid right.
Speaker 2:There's a gap between there, but there's not not a very big gap. But, like you know, when I ask people or when I'm talking, it's like, yeah, you know, like we're in our thirties. Like what do you, what do you remember about your twenties? What do you remember about your twenties? Like, what, if you could define, you know, age 20 to 30 by something? Most people don't include kids. It's usually, you know, went to college or, you know, hung out with friends or got established in a job. Like, maybe got had a relationship, got married. But very rarely do I talk to people and it's like, oh, yeah, you know it was raising kids. It's like, man, that's that's what I remember about my 20s. Like maybe not the, the 21 and 22, because I was in college, but 23, you know seven years, you know early to mid to end, it's like I had kids and so I was just it's just interesting to see.
Speaker 2:like you know, lee, you talked about having having your first having Iris at 30, and Ben, you were 28, 29, 28. Yeah, you're 28.
Speaker 1:If he's telling the truth. If he's telling the truth he thought he was 35.
Speaker 3:I haven't done the math. I've not done the math.
Speaker 2:But, but yeah, it's just interesting, like it's a, it's almost as though, like there's a lot of life lived, as you put it. I wouldn't say that I, I lost. It was just different. It's changed, you know Cause it's like okay, well, my, my oldest is going to be out of the house when I'm 42.
Speaker 3:Dang.
Speaker 2:So I'd be Lee's age and I already have an adult that's probably going to get married seriously, seriously yeah as I look in, look at some of my friends that had it yeah early 20s.
Speaker 1:That's exactly um I made my brothers and their kids at early 20s, mid-20s, so yeah, it's just different.
Speaker 2:It's, it's just different stages of life thank you so much for tuning in to the Walk Family podcast today. If you haven't realized already, laura and I are switching the format of our show. The primary difference is that we have changed our releases to fit more of a serial format, which means we will be sending out episodes throughout each week for a season. Then, once the next season begins, another series will come out. Each series will contain around 10 to 12 episodes give or take. For the winter season of 2025, seasons of Despair is our series.
Speaker 2:We still release an episode on Tuesdays, but you may see another episode pop up later in the same week as well. Also, be sure to hit the little bell to subscribe. It gives you each episode instantly once it's published. You can always connect with us at our website, thewalkfmcom, and, if you are really interested, a link in the show notes below allows you to sign up for our monthly newsletter. Our letter contains updates on the Smith family to stay connected with us, while also providing tips, tricks and challenges we are experiencing. If you sign up, you also get a free sneak peek to the first chapter of Prayer and Promises, which is a book that I'm writing and will hopefully be publishing this year. Thanks again and be blessed.
