The Breakthrough Hiring Show: Modern Recruiting, AI, and Talent Strategy
Welcome to The Breakthrough Hiring Show: Recruiting, AI, and Talent Strategy, a podcast for leaders building better hiring systems and stronger teams.
Hosted by James Mackey, the show features conversations with founders, CEOs, talent leaders, and recruiting experts on how great companies hire, scale, and adapt as technology changes the talent landscape.
Episodes cover talent acquisition strategy, recruiting operations, AI, automation, candidate experience, hiring analytics, and executive decision-making.
You will learn how to build scalable hiring systems, use AI and recruiting technology effectively, improve the hiring process, and make talent acquisition a competitive advantage.
Built for founders, executives, talent acquisition leaders, recruiters, and hiring teams.
Thank you to our sponsors, SecureVision and June, for making this show possible.
The Breakthrough Hiring Show: Modern Recruiting, AI, and Talent Strategy
EP 202: The Difference Between Filling Roles and Building Teams
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A bad environment can make someone shut down fast. The right one can change everything. Kenzie Hoelscher, Leading Recruiting at AssemblyAI, saw that shift early and it still shapes how she thinks about people and performance today. We dive into what truly makes a great recruiter stand out, why chasing volume can quietly undermine quality, and how top candidates think differently. It’s a practical conversation on modern hiring, from product obsession to blending AI with human judgment and why staying close to leadership can be a real edge.
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Let's welcome Kenzie Holstrom to the show. Kenzie, we were just talking about your name and so I got all tripped up. Uh, but anyways, Kenzie, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks for having me, James.
SPEAKER_00I I bet we're gonna have so Linda's uh our editor. Uh I have a feeling she's gonna want to keep some of that in just to jump around and us with me.
SPEAKER_02That was a pretty good way, pretty good way to start.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, hey, at least now you know it's like, hey, this is like a you know genuine conversation, no need to be perfect because I already took that pressure off, right? Like this guy, this guy. You know, we're coming up on the 200th episode. You would think by now, like, you know, but that's amazing.
SPEAKER_01I actually I didn't realize it was 200. That's great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's wild. It's actually that's gonna be the one we release on Tuesday.
SPEAKER_01Okay,
Welcome Kenzie And Episode 200
SPEAKER_01yeah, awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's kind of wild. I I saw the show four years ago. So it's been a minute.
SPEAKER_01So how many is that per year then that you've been doing?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's like it hasn't been consistent exactly. Um we were doing, we've kind of changed, had different iterations of the show, but now we're posting at a cadence of two per week.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so that's it's gonna add up pretty fast at this point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So that's fantastic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's a good time. Well, yeah, anyways, we're really happy to have you here. Uh, just for everybody tuning in, Kenzie's currently at Assembly AI, and she's leading the recruiting efforts over there. So we'll talk a little bit about that too at some point.
SPEAKER_01Awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, well, Kenzie, so where are you from?
SPEAKER_01Well, I guess we kind of talked about this before, but I'm actually originally from Minnesota. Um, but I the past five years lived between Wyoming and South Dakota. So kind of like slowly inching my way back to Minnesota at this point. But yeah, I originally grew up in Minnesota in the suburbs of Minneapolis.
SPEAKER_00Nice. Nice. Okay, cool. What was that like?
SPEAKER_01Um, it was good. I mean, I was there. We we moved around quite a bit when I was little. Um, I don't, I mean, Lake Minnetonka is like a pretty big name in Minnesota, but we like lived in almost every town, I feel like, around Lake Minnetonka.
Minnesota Roots And Outdoor Childhood
SPEAKER_01Um and yeah, I you know, I was there up until I was about 16, 17, until I got I got sent to boarding school. So, and then I was in St. Louis, Missouri. Um St.
SPEAKER_00Louis?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So I um yeah, I went to St. Louis for for boarding school. But it was like I mean, Missouri is a whole different experience from Minnesota. So it was fun to be able to see what that like different, I don't know, just like going from Minnesota to Missouri. It's just going from like cold winter lake town to cicadas everywhere. I did remember that pretty so yeah, anyway.
SPEAKER_00So, what were you like as a kid? What were you into?
SPEAKER_01Um, gosh, I I I would say I grew up quite a tomboy. Um, it's funny, like I think about this a lot, but I remember like growing up, the first thing I do when I got out of bed was run out to my backyard. We had a big pond in our backyard to go catch frogs. I don't know if that was anything that you ever used to do, but it was like um one of my hobbies growing up was catching frogs. So I'd go out to this pond and I'd catch frogs every day, put them in my bucket, carry them around with me. Um, I think I've I built a rope swing on every single tree in my neighborhood. So I I basically was like Jane with Parzan, you know, just every tree and my best friend Charlie at the time. I think we both built like three different tree forts as well in our neighborhood. So yeah, I was I was kind of reckless. I I was one of four kids. And so, and I was a middle child, and you know, you know what middle children I feel like always are are the ones that end up being the troublemakers, I guess. But um yeah, kind of just grew up out. I love the outdoors. I've always I've always loved the outdoors and very spontaneous, and so and a little rebellious as I as I got older. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00But you build your own tree forts. That was uh tree forts are cool, they're still cool. I don't care how I think tree forts are.
SPEAKER_01Tree forts are awesome. I I can't remember like exactly obviously it was so long ago, but um we got pretty far by ourselves. Like I think one of our neighbors, he was in the construction business and he would like help and like would basically donate to us like any extra wood that we could use to build these tree forts, and we actually hammered together some of these by ourselves. So these were like legitimate, yeah. And I remember thinking back on it now, I'm like so surprised that my parents weren't more worried that I was out there in trees, like with hammers, you know, building a tree fort as like a 10-year-old. Oh, totally, yeah. I mean, I I don't I remember like leaving my house in the morning and not coming back until you know dinner time. It was just yeah.
SPEAKER_00Would you could you imagine letting your daughter do that?
SPEAKER_01Oh I don't know.
unknownI don't know.
SPEAKER_01I feel like I'm uh I'm way more um strict with my daughter, but she's only two. I I think where we live right now, yeah. Um where we live right now, I would I would feel okay doing that. We're like in a really small town in South Dakota and in a safe neighborhood, but I don't know. I guess I'll have to see once we get to that point in a couple years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess it like a it depends heavily on where you live, right? Yeah, right. Like where I live, it's rest in Virginia, which is incredibly when I was growing up around here, it was not as busy, it was like starting to get busy or starting to get more populated, but there was like farmland and stuff like that here also, and then it's basically now it's just insanely populated because the toll road goes like right into DC.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's definitely different, yeah. Not not the right type of neighborhood to just like all day. Yeah, it's in my series, it's too populated, it's too many people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and like we live in a 500-person town. Um, that's pretty cool. We're like we're like 40, maybe 40 minutes from Rapid City, which is like a lot more populated, but yeah, we're I mean, you have to drive in here and uh there's only like 500 people around this town, and really there's a lot of just like ranches and like all around, and so it's pretty distributed. But um, our neighborhood is like we have like a little path that goes right into town, and but I I mean you probably see the same 500 people every day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's cool. See, that's that's not an experience that I've had.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, yeah. I actually love it. I'm like, I wish, yeah. I I think everyone should experience it once in their life because it's it's pretty fun to be in a small little town. But and in in Wyoming, we were in another small town which was like 1500 people, maybe. Um, that was a little bit more secluded because I think the closest town to us was Jackson Hole, and even Jackson Hole isn't like that big of a town. So, like if we wanted to go to Target or anything like that, we had to drive an hour and a half. And then I remember we would do like Costco runs and we would have to drive all the way to Idaho, Idaho Falls, which was like a two and a half hour drive. Yeah. So that was a little different because you you definitely were a lot more secluded from like a city, whereas like Rapid City now, which is like 40 minutes away, you know, they have Target, Walmart, everything. So we went from an hour and a half drive to a 40-minute drive, which is nice.
SPEAKER_00For me, it's sort of the opposite because I'm in such like a densely populated area, but yeah, I like to take my daughter to areas like in the Shenandoah Mountains, uh, where it's away from everyone. So we like have to be intentional about getting an hour and a half away from everything. Like grocery stores or whatever else. Like we have to really work for it. Um, but like uh we're going to actually we're gonna go to a cabin in Tennessee over spring break, which I'm really excited. And Gatlin's smoking.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I think that's all over my TikTok.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So we're we're going there. Um, or sometimes we'll go to West Virginia or just different areas that are just like way more secluded and away from everything. I feel like that's really important in tech to have balance to get away from just the craziness and pace of everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I feel like I so I get like the opposite, right? Like I get times where I'm like, I'm so secluded, I need to get into a city. And so
Small Town Life And City Energy
SPEAKER_01I'm really lucky that our company does off sites every once in a while. And then um, like just last week, I got to go into the office in New York City to because I was filming another podcast, and I was like, this is just so nice to like get you know a little bit of like the city girl out of me. Um I'm always I'm always ready to go home for a little bit and get back to like my secludedness and be out in the forest. But um yeah, I mean it's just it's fun because our office is right downtown Soho, um in like the shopping shopping district. And so it's I get to get that all out of my system during those off sites.
SPEAKER_00There's uh a um a co-working space that is in Soho that I like. It's called the farm. Um right and downtown Soho. Last time I was in New York on Clive business a few weeks ago. We were actually staying in Soho. It was uh oh wow, I just missed you, unfortunately. But uh yeah, it was during like the blizzard, like the all of the oh yeah, yeah. And it was wild because like it was weird. There was uh actually a curfew uh in the city. Um allowed to be on the roads at night unless you were an emergency worker, and uh yeah, so anyways, it was just interesting because the city was like dead, and then the next day there was so much snow on the ground that I was walking through Soho and it sort of felt like a ghost town because yeah, there was some people walking around, and then it's kind of you know it's kind of weird, like you know, when it snows, people are just like, I'm just gonna walk on the street because you can't see it. I guess it doesn't, you know, it's like everybody just like walking in the middle of the street who's out. Oh my gosh, and like trees had fallen on um like cars and stuff like that. Holy cow, but yeah, it was it was kind of wild. Uh it was a really unique experience in New York. I hadn't experienced anything like it. Um, anyways, I was like right in Soho.
SPEAKER_01I was like, I I think I saw like a lot of that on social media of like the snow, and I'm like everyone was like, Where do you put where do you put the snow? Like in the city, or they it's just wait till it melts, or yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's not a whole lot you can do about it.
SPEAKER_01Can you shovel it into the harbor? Like, yeah, how does that work?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I was like trying to look for this like one photo of it. I'm not gonna be able to find it, but anyways, yeah, I took a photo because it was just like trees had fallen down like in the streets and stuff. Um, that's cool. I mean, it was that part, you know, it's obviously it's not good, but yeah, it's interesting, it's like a different New York experience to just see like a literally a blizzard, right?
SPEAKER_01I know, and like that doesn't happen very often in New York, I feel like, either.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no, I love getting to New York. It is nice to I think like the one thing for us of being in tech, it does feel nice, at least for me. I like going to New York or even specifically San Francisco, because it's just kind of inspiring and fun to be around other ambitious people in tech that are like, you know, you go into a cafe and you hear people talking about startups and tech. Yeah, particularly right now because San Francisco is sort of making a comeback. And uh, so it's it's um, it's just nice. Like it's nice to be around that energy. So I usually do come back from those trips like really excited to get back to it, you know.
SPEAKER_01Um especially like full like I being fully remote, right? Because I I you almost forget what being in office is like, and so um I'm constantly reminded, not only by myself but by my coworkers, that whenever I come in the office, everyone is less productive because I'm such a social butterfly. And so I'm like, even though it's it's so fun to just be there and collaborate with people. And there, I mean, while I was there, I was hiring for specific roles with higher managers that worked out of the New York office. And so it was kind of fun to just get that instant feedback that you don't always get being remote. Um, but then I also realized that I am way more productive at my house because I just sit in a room without anyone else around me and just have to, you know, focus on my work. Whereas at an office, I have all these people around me and all I want to do is talk to everyone, you know, like while I'm in the office and socialize.
SPEAKER_00And so maybe if you saw them every day, you wouldn't want to talk to them so much, you know.
SPEAKER_01Maybe, yeah, maybe.
SPEAKER_04I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know. We have a really, really cool team, but I I mean I think it's I think it's one of those things though that I just realized I'm like, not everyone is great in an office environment. Like I just, you know, I have times where like I'm in there, and I I again, like I said, like the collaboration with everyone, but I talk a lot, so I'm like, I don't know. I think I'm like it's good that I am probably closed off in my office in my house. Yeah. But who knows? Who knows?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's definitely different for different people. Like, I'm definitely more productive in office. Yeah, and then I also I feel like so much of what I do is like collaborating and like thinking, and it's I'm the type of person where if I'm like thinking, talking with somebody, yeah, more productive at getting through problems. Um, even things on like what some people would consider like, oh, that should be independent work. Like if I'm working on it with somebody, it's just I I just yeah, that's true. My brain kind of works. Um, so we most of my team is remote at Secure Visions, which is like my embedded recruiting RPO firm. And yeah, I I have an office in Rustin, Virginia, which is where I'm sitting now, and it's for my go-to-market team. So we're standing up our outbound sales organization for the first time. So it's like we've never done it before. So it's like, okay, we're gonna have everybody in office for that motion specifically.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then everybody else remote. So it's it's we just like it's very situational. It's like what works for me, but it's also like I think we need it based on where we're at for that go-to-market piece. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I I think that's I mean, it's probably true to a lot of different roles. Like every role is a little bit different, and every person is a little bit different. But I mean, there's some roles at our team that like we're you know, specifically looking for people in New York or San Francisco to be in those offices to, you know, collaborate with the the other team members and then also to like attend events. And so, um, but you know, most of our like employees that are in the offices are still like hybrid, you know, they they go in and out, but you give them the option. But yeah, I think it definitely just like like like you mentioned, like different teams, you know, different perspective. It just yeah, um what they're working on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like how the leaders think and operate. And yeah, I think a lot of it too is is as I'm getting older, I'm realizing it's like it's it is different for like based on how people are wired. Yeah, it's about like the stage of the company, it's about like the you know, like what needs to be accomplished as a team, and then there is also this dynamic of like how where what types of people are gonna thrive in what type of environment. Like as you said, like some people are way more productive, remote, other people like having a place to be every day at the same time and to like put on work clothes, like to show up by a certain time, you know.
SPEAKER_01Does anyone in tech do that though? You know, I mean, look at me.
SPEAKER_00Like, I so I swear I usually dress up for like podcasts, right? Because the our always looks so nice, and I'm like, so my team was like, you gotta like step your game up, and I was like, okay, I'll do it. But today, we talked about this earlier. Today, I looked at my calendar, I was like, Oh my god, it's not like a mess for the first time in weeks. I'm gonna have a more chill day. You know what? I'm gonna wear a hoodie, I'm gonna do that. So yeah, today I was like, it's gonna kind of lean more laid back tech vibe.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, I mean, like the same thing. I think every every day I I mean, I usually just throw on a sweater and leggings, like I'm not going all out, but it is interesting to see. I I thought it was funny. I saw a comment on LinkedIn not too long ago
Dress Codes And Interview Signals
SPEAKER_01about how someone should show up to an interview with a tech, like a startup tech uh company, like or like and they're just saying, don't show up in a suit. And I thought that was so funny. Because I'm like, is that like do people really like think about those things? And you you know, especially at a tech company, and yeah, I don't know. I didn't I didn't know how well how what I thought about that.
SPEAKER_00I think I so I explained this. So my go-to-market team is pretty young, they're like well, they're they're they're like 22, 23 years old, and so they were asking me my dress code, and they were talking to their parents before they got this like their first corporate job, and so they're like talking about you gotta wear suit, you gotta, you know, no jeans in the office. And I my dress code was like, look, just I don't really care what you wear, just look like you care a little bit about your parents, you know, just show up looking like well put together. It can be genes. I don't really care what it is, just you know, look like you didn't roll out of bed, right? Yeah, yeah, I guess. Like, you know, I don't know, whatever I take. I don't know if that's what you're supposed to say. Like I maybe as a T A agenda, sounds like a good policy, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00I don't know if that's something that you would put in writing, but like it's just again, just look like you care that you're in public.
SPEAKER_04Like, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00That's that's literally like the where the bar is. Like, uh uh, I don't know for interviews though, like I think it's okay. Like it probably is a good look to to to to some extent care about what you're it doesn't have to be a suit, but yeah, I don't know if people should lean into the hoodie thing on an interview. I don't know. What do you think?
SPEAKER_01I think I to be honest, at this point, it's like yeah, I mean, like we are fully remote. So I think a lot of the time I'm not even I don't even know if I notice that during the interview. You know, like I I'm I'm so focused on the skill set and just like the culture ad and like what you know, talking through those things. But I guess if it was a more I don't know, I don't know if I really focus on that too much anymore, you know, like especially since all of our interviews are over Zoom. Um, you know, you don't really see the full outfit or anything anyway.
SPEAKER_00But you have no idea what's going on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and most people it's very rare that would someone would come to an interview like not looking like put together. So I'm yeah, it's not something that's really top of mind, I guess, most of the time.
SPEAKER_00It's so we're in the Google building, and I guess big tech has changed because everyone who works for Google in our building is like pretty like you know, conservative business casual. Like everybody's got their backpack, and you know, they're they're like uh they have it's like a very specific, like everybody's like very buttoned up and they have like you know, yeah, khkies and all this kind of stuff. And then you have the sixth floor where we are, and it's like we're like in a co-working space, and there's some other startups, and you know, my GTM team will show up wearing like sweatpants.
SPEAKER_04I'm like, guys, not the whole team.
SPEAKER_00My sales guy's uh Matt, he'll just show up wearing like a hoodie and like sweatpants, looking like so cozy.
SPEAKER_04He's got this yeah, he's got this thing.
SPEAKER_00Let me show you this thing. It's like uh it's like a blanket hoodie that he wears, and he will straight up wear this around the office.
SPEAKER_01No way, yeah. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00So we're just you know, it's funny, it's like definitely that is really cool. You know, generally the the off like most of the office and most of the Googlers or whatever, they're you know, a little bit dressed up than we are, I guess.
SPEAKER_01But I'm gonna have to get one of those for my house.
SPEAKER_00That I was like, yeah, he just put on his headphones on and just take it away.
SPEAKER_01So that's amazing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Well, how often do you go to New York?
SPEAKER_01It kind of depends. Like, I I mean, it hasn't been a whole lot. We used to do four offsites a year, and so we'd go quarterly to our New York office, and then our company transitioned to just doing two offsites a year, and now they're always like in a different location. But every once in a while our team will just get together and and go out to New York. So, like the end of last quarter, or like yeah, the end of last year I went out to help with a marketing event, and then I just went uh last week to for to be on a podcast, and so I I just asked my team if they wanted to come with, and we just planned kind of a little team off site around it.
SPEAKER_00That's cool. So, is that a podcast through uh your company or was that something no?
SPEAKER_01It was called Twill, so it's like um yeah, so it's just a podcast where they interview. I think mostly who she's interviewing is uh talent leaders.
SPEAKER_00Nice, okay. I'll have to check it out. Is it um is it public or my podcast?
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, no, not yet. I think we just recorded it on Thursday, so I don't know how long it takes to edit these things. I guess you would know.
SPEAKER_00For us, yeah, not too we do very light editing. Um okay, so it's it doesn't take us a whole lot of time, but our there's also like lead time, um they might have different lead times of how many episodes they have like published ahead. Yeah they release like. We typically we typically only have like a few episodes ahead, so we publish pretty quickly. But you know, if they they might have like 10 episodes in the backlog, I guess it just sort of depends on that. But also in person, they might have like a more robust editing process if they had like multiple cameras and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01I don't know how to asked me if I wanted to be in person or if we wanted to do it remotely. And um ultimately I don't I was like it would be kind of fun to do that in in person in New York because it was like right outside of Times Square and the studio that they did it in. And so it's a different experience being in person doing that. But yeah, I thought it was it was fun.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, we're not set up to do in person yet, but uh I think it would be fun. I I do, I mean, again, like yeah, something about in person that's just it's nice every once in a while.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So yeah, maybe in your future.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, yeah. But yeah, hey, um, you know, I I want I do want to talk like more about like work stuff and and get into to that, but um, I guess just to back up a little bit, I am curious to learn a little bit more about your story. Um, and I know you had told me like one of the most impactful things of like kind of like formative like growing up was uh going to boarding school and like that transition. It sounds like it made a pretty big impact on who you've become. So I want to see if you want to share that story with us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So um, like I told you, I was pretty rebellious growing up. I think, you know, when I I told you all about like where I grew up was called Mound, and it was like this small suburb outside of Minneapolis. So it was probably like 30 minutes or 40 minutes outside of Minneapolis.
Bullying And The Boarding School Reset
SPEAKER_01Um, and I was there until about fifth grade. And then my parents decided to build a house in one of the towns over. Um and I it's it's kind of it was like a hard goodbye for me because, like I told you, like I grew up in this neighborhood that I just fell in love with. I had friends that knew me since birth. Um, and so, and to move in middle school is just like a really big transition because middle school, I think, is when we just grow a lot, you know, and and there's like that the new milestones that you're reaching. And so when we made that move, it was really hard for me. And I went to this new school and I um, you know, I was there from sixth grade until about junior year, but I think throughout the years, I just was very unhappy being at this new school and this new environment. And it started off because I was I started getting really bullied because I have a birthmark on my face. And I remember making that move during middle school and just like new kids, and we were kind of in like a more wealthy town. And I I remember making that move and just hating it. And I was like, why did we do this? Like I missed my old friends, I missed my old neighborhood. Um, but my parents just thought it was a better school district overall. Um, and then I just kind of became more and more rebellious over the years. Just I I think from being bullied into, you know, just not liking the school and the classes. I just I was one of those kids, like I told you, like I'm a social butterfly. Like the last thing I wanted to do is sit in class for 50 minutes and listen to like a teacher left through me. Um, so I ended up just having a hard time with all of it. And then it got to a point where, you know, I started hanging out with the wrong crowd. I um started skipping school. So I would like sign my mom's signature and just say I had doctor's appointments like every other day. And uh I started, you know, my my grades started slipping. I think it got around sophomore junior year that I think my parents were like catching on that I wasn't doing well in school because my grades were like C's, D's. And then eventually junior year, it was like, I think D's and F. Like I was like literally not going to pass junior year. And so, and then my parents found out that I was like forging notes. I think one of my teachers like finally reached out to my parents and they're like, Hey, is like everything okay with Kenzie? Like, we've we've noticed that there's been quite a few doctor visits and we just want to like check in. And my parents were like, What? Like, what do you mean, doctor? And I remember like specifically like sleeping in my car. Like, I would bring my comforter with me in my car and just sleep in my car and skip school. Um, you know, and I just I just didn't want to go. I like I didn't like the people. Like, I just, you know, for however many years I was just bullied. I mean, kids used to call me face, like it was just like not a good environment. And being a mom now, too, it's just interesting because like I think that parents just forget about some of those things. And like, especially since my parents had four kids. So it was like, how much can you keep track of? And eventually I sat down with my parents and I like told them and I was like, this is just how I'm feeling. And they had parents who were like, Well, you're at a point now that you can either stay here and repeat your junior year, but we think it would be better if you go to one of these boarding schools. And so I did a little research on all these boarding schools, and we ended up picking one, and um, it was more of a religious school, so I it's the the religion was called Christian science. And I didn't really grow up super religious, and so this was all like really brand new to me. Um, my parents both did, but like I think as they grew up and had four kids, it just like, you know, we all played sports, and so we were going to like hockey and basketball and soccer. And so church was kind of hard to attend, you know, with four kids. And then um, anyway, long story short, I ended up at this Christian science boarding school and it changed my life, truly. I think just the environment and everything that I like the people and just yeah, how I how I grew from there. My I think I graduated there with like a 3.7 and got into every college I applied to. And so I mean, it was yeah, it was a huge turnaround for me.
SPEAKER_00I think environment is just so important, and there's so many variables environment that could be like some for some people's like home environment for other people's like the environment of the school, uh the people's like I grew up in. For you, it sounds like it was like the school environment, just the culture around the school. Um makes such a big difference, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and like I respect my parents so much for just helping me make it to that point where they were like, I mean, sending your kid to boarding school can't be easy. And so I think they just sat down and understood like Orno was not the place for me. And you know, and I went in and out of waves. You know, there was a few years that were good with Orno, which was the school I went to. Um, and then there were waves that it just wasn't good, and then eventually I think it all just fell apart in the end. And I was like, I need to, yeah. And I also agreed to them. I was like, I got I think I got to a point where I was like, I need to get out of here, like send me anywhere, I'm good to go. Um, maybe not military school, but like any other boarding school would work.
SPEAKER_00But it was cool that they like brought you into the process where you were an active participant and finding and picking the school. Yeah, that's something unusual, I think. Like in similar. I just haven't heard maybe it's not actually. I don't know. I guess you would find it, but like it's pretty cool that you were able to like partake in that process, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. My dad was really awesome. He like sat down and I think he they originally researched a few schools that were like known to be really good, and then he let me sit there and research it, like all of them, and just choose which one I thought was best for me. Um the school I actually went ended up going to was like I was like fourth generation. So I think I just picked it because I was like my um, or maybe it was third generation because my grandparents went there, my parents went there, and then I went there. So the school goes from like kindergarten all the way through college. So I mean, yeah, and I think my yeah, my grandma I think actually did go there kindergarten kindergarten all the way through college. Wow. So and then I I went there from like junior of high school all the way through college.
SPEAKER_00Okay, all the way through you got your bachelor's.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I well I went there and I had all these other schools that I applied to, colleges, and I actually was admitted into High Point University. Are you familiar with High Point?
SPEAKER_00It sounds very familiar, but I'm not I'm not too familiar.
SPEAKER_01Okay, it's it's North Carolina. It was this the school was amazing. I was I couldn't even believe when I went there and like toured the campus that it was a college because it was like they had pools with cabanas, and like in my dorm, there was a steakhouse on the on the top floor and like a arcade in the basement. And I was like, Wow, what is this? But I think, you know, at that point I had grown so much at Principia, where I ended up going to boarding school. Um, I didn't want to lose track of like the progress I made. And so I was like, I, you know, I got admitted to a school I went to visit, and it was a phenomenal school. But I think at the end of the day, I was like, I've been so successful at Principia. I've like turned my life around. I've been surrounded by these amazing people. Like I just want to keep going. So I ended up dropping out of that other school before even anything started. Like, I remember I had my roommate and everything, and then um last night I switched and decided to go to the college and stayed there through all four years and played soccer and yeah, made it out.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Well, that seems like a lot of um practical wisdom for somebody that young to know what environment is gonna help you stay on track and thrive.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like a lot of kids that age probably wouldn't have known how to make that type of decision at that point in their life. So that's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think luckily I went through what happened at my high school um and went through that experience that I think I already learned my lesson. You know, I was like, okay, I need to stay in a good environment and keep going forward. And I just had made so many great friends, great connections. It was just, I mean, even the teachers, like I remember the classes were smaller, you know, it was like 12 kids in my class, um, or like in each individual class. There was maybe like 60 kids in my class at a whole, whereas at my public school, it was, you know, about 200 kids and you know, the classes were bigger. And I just remember the teachers caring so much more. Like they would, you know, sit with me during the class if I didn't understand something, or have me like stay after school and work with them on it. And it wasn't in like a aggressive way. It was just like, hey, you have a lot of potential, like let's let's figure out like why you aren't understanding this and walking me through it. And um it was awesome, you know, just having to be able to have more of like that one-on-one time with your teacher.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that that's that's awesome. I I uh different experiences, but like similar in that, like I definitely wasn't thriving in high school and high school, like before. Um I needed to get out too. A lot of people don't know those, I guess they will now, but I almost failed out of high school. I passed high school by like literally, like it came down to like one test in chemistry class. Um, it was it's like it was like all the gym. Um so I mean, my uh it's funny in hindsight. Um but uh no, I my senior in high school, I I couldn't wait to get out. Like, so I decided to do dual enrollment and I did my senior year at the community college because I was just so so ready to
How Environment Unlocks Performance
SPEAKER_00get out. Um and then it's like things really started, like I think it's like environment, right? And I moved out like on my own, and I did the dual enrollment, I was out of high school, was out of the house, and that's like something turned on. I started doing like internships, Capitol Hill, like the White House, working around the clock, like really starting to make something of myself, and out of nowhere, like unlocked my ability to make great grades, like straight A's in school, and and like my ambition just like arrived out of nowhere. It was like, well, yeah, I guess here the whole time it just wasn't. I guess maybe I just needed that experience or that different setting to unlock it, right? And it's really wild to look back and I was like, wow, like it all just happened at once. It wasn't like this gradual shift, it was like shifted the environment and it significantly impacted like the results I was getting in different areas of my life.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah. So kind of fascinating to reflect back on those types of things, right? Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, parts of it like just shapes I mean where you are now, obviously. So it's it's very interesting how like just those little like what now feels like little moments in time have actually made a huge impact on your life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Anyway, so I can relate to to some of that. Um it's just it's interesting. It's like I think it's kind of like in hindsight, it's also those types of experience uh experiences are are really beneficial because you do start to realize the impact of like like your kind of environment and your approach and just general concepts. It's like in the formative years of like, okay, knowing the outcome you want to produce and like the approach isn't working, like we'll switch. Like, let's keep changing and trying different things until we kind of find a way to get where we need to be, right? Um, yeah. So it's like a good time like in life to be able to. It's like the silver lining aspect of like just like looking at it through the lens of like, hey, like this is gonna teach us resilience and it's gonna teach us like how to change our approach and stay creative until we get like to where we need to be, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So well, hey, so fast forward, let's fast forward to like where we are now. Now you've been in recruiting for uh, you know, you've been at a recruiter at Twilio, you're currently leading recruiting over at Assembly AI. Um, I I'm curious to get a sense for like just talking more about talent acquisition, what's some of the top like takeaways you have for recruiters and talent leaders out there? Like, what what do you feel like is most important to be successful in recruiting based on where you are in your career right now?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love that question. I so I actually started off my like after I graduated college, I actually started in sales and I thought that I was gonna be like a salesperson. Um, my my dad was an entrepreneur, my uncle's an entrepreneur, my grandpa was basically
Recruiting That Starts With Belief
SPEAKER_01an entrepreneur. So I I and they all um own their own businesses. I guess my my grandpa was actually the CEO of Justin's. Are you familiar with Jostin's at all? No, okay, like the class rings and like they made like I think they even make like the NFL rings. Um and I don't know, I think they also do yearbooks, like they were really big back when my grandpa was the CEO.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they designed um 38 out of 58 uh NFL like Super Bowl rings.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So um but he was the CEO of Justin Jack, but anyway, I so I I started like my whole career out in sales and then um decided that sales wasn't really for me. I was actually went my uncle owns a bunch of shoe stores. And so uh back when I was working there, it was New Balance. So he owned like 15 New Balance stores across the country. Um so I helped to manage uh one of his New Balance stores in Huntsville, Alabama. So I I literally like graduated and moved to Huntsville, Alabama and was working retail, you know, like on the floor selling shoes. Um I actually didn't mind that job. It, you know, it was pretty fun. I think what I learned about myself over time, though, like I went from there to selling airspace on the radio to um going into nursing. And I thought I was gonna get my nursing degree, which I don't know why I decided to go back to school after learning that I'm not like as school isn't like my most favorite thing in the world. Um, but I tried and that didn't work out. But what I learned after all of that is just I really love communicating with people and I love helping people. And at the end of the day, I like landed across a recruiting agency, and that's actually where I got started in recruiting was working with this recruiting agency and um recruited being at like at a recruiting agency is like so different than being an internal recruiter, like just the the whole like like environment and just you know what the goals are and everything like that. Um, but what I've learned through all of it is just I have done my best being at a company that I truly believe in and like really understanding the product. So like I just have grown to love my company so much and just what we're building. And I think that passion just shows in a lot of like my conversations that I have. Um and I don't know if I ever really took the time in the past to really understand the companies I was working at. You know, a lot of the time I was like, this is just a job, I need to hit my goals, my metrics. And, you know, the I wasn't really taking the time to learn the teams and learn, you know, the product and and really dig into like, why are we building this and what is it solving? And um, I think, you know, over the years, I realized like that's really the answer to, you know, everything is I think almost in every role, but especially recruiting. I I wrote a LinkedIn post the other day that has gotten a lot of traction just saying that recruiters at your company should love your company the most.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I saw that pulling up some of your posts actually while we're talking, just to like maybe other talking points, stuff like that. Um pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I just I I truly believe that. I just think, I mean, as a recruiter, you're their very first conversation most of the time with your candidates, right? So it's like if they don't see the excitement in your voice, like how you know, why would they continue through the process? Like if you get on the phone and you're like, yeah, my company's good, like, you know, I enjoy it here, but if they actually can like see the passion and and you have the knowledge to like talk through it, then it that conversation goes a whole different direction. So I mean, that's my biggest advice to anyone. I mean, make sure it if you're in a company and let's say you don't love your company, find something that you do love about it, you know, whether it's like something about the product, what it's doing, what it, you know, how it's creating value for the customers. Like, I mean, I even tell that to candidates. Like every candidate I ask, like, why assembly AI? Like, why do you want to work here at this company? What about our product stuck out to you? Um, and I think that the answer that they give me, like tells me a lot too, of like, you know, what what is it? Yeah, that like why should, you know, what what's gonna get if you got the job here, like why would you continue to work hard for this company? Like, are you enjoying what you're building? You know, are you, you know, like are you passionate about what you're building? Like, do you like like seeing how the customers are getting gaining success from this product? Um, but I think those conversations really matter.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think so. I think um one way I like to think about like passion or like uh really enjoying where you work or elements of where you work, um, is as I've gotten older, I've realized like willpower is not enough. Like I consider myself a very hard worker. Uh yeah. Willpower is just it's not enough. You can be the most disciplined person in the world. You have to love something about what you do because you have to be able to push through and you have to be able to kind of stay focused and engaged. Like that's when we do work. I I truly believe that, like, for instance, like the concepts of like burnout. I don't think actually burnout is caused from hours in. It certainly can be caused by lack of sleep, I suppose. But um I really think that it's like kind of like more so about our emotional state and how like it's like our work or our relationships, like, are there any kind of like conflicts we're dealing with emotionally? Like that kind of stuff is really what leads to burnout. Like if you're operating from sheer willpower, that's gonna lead to burnout. Like if there's something going on in your personal life where it's like emotionally stressful, that could lead to burnout. But like if we're kind of engaged and we're not like in this like internal civil war where we want competing things or there's not a bunch of like emotional gas leaks, yeah. Like, you know, and so, anyways, like one kind of like all over the place, but like the the main thing is like I do think it's like having some level of passion for what you do or some element like we there, I don't think anybody has a job where they love everything about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, of course not.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't like that, but I mean, you know, but um you gotta be like right, like there should be some level of passion. I I agree, like I think that's a good question to ask candidates. Like, why you know what about this really excites you, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, and I and one thing that I'll say that I've seen obviously it's so different, you know, where I'm at, and we're a startup, you know, we've got 75 employees, we're a very dense team. And so a lot of these things do really matter when you're building that foundation. But I think about other companies and previous companies that I worked at that the recruiters are so far away from leadership, you know, like the CEOs and the executives that I'm like, I almost wonder if that's the right way to do it. Like your front line of defense is so far away from you know, your leadership team. And then there's all these you're playing the telephone game of trying to like get down to the recruiters to like what they should be presenting in that first call. But I think it's really important that you know, you have like I talk with my CEO like almost every day, you know, and and I understand his perspective on like what we should be hiring for. And like, and I think he respects that I think he can knows that I'm very passionate about what we're building and and who we're bringing on to our company. And I and I love that there's no one in between that, you know, like I can talk directly with him. And I think a lot of companies get to this point where there's So big that you start missing that. And I it was funny. I was talking to my sister like not too long ago, and she was telling me that she has a recruiter, and she's like, I honestly don't think the recruiter even likes working there. And I'm like, that's that's not like good, you know? And and and some recruiters are just asking the question, like they're just reading down the script every once in a while. Like you'll say something that they want to talk about and talk through or dig deeper into, but you know, they're just modotone and and going through the because they're on screens back to back all day. So it's like, do you minimize like like for me? I'm like I maxed out at six because I know after six screens a day, I start losing, you know, that energy and that excitement. So like I know, I know my limit and I make sure that that's you know, that that's where I end. But it's like, you know, some of these companies are like, hey, like let's be on 20 calls a day, which is great. I mean, you're grinding, but then also like what are your recruiters then representing, you know, towards that 10th call of the day? Like, are they still, you know, it's excited to talk to people? Are they still, you know, creating that energy? And um, I don't know. I guess it kind of depends like company by company and recruiter by recruiter, but I just think it's really important that you know, you're taking those things into consideration.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's like it's you can never lose sight of the relationship element. And I think there's a lot of things we can optimize in business, but we have to be careful with the concept of like optimizing relationships, right? And so, like that, like when it comes down to the number of screens, like I I of course, like metrics are important, and like, okay, if it's more screens, it's more screens. I'm not gonna like, you know, every environment is different, like it's a very situational. Yeah, like like what my takeaway from what you're saying is like, yeah, we just have to be careful about optimizing. It's optimizing you can't optimize a relationship like you would optimize an ATS or like your tech stack. Yeah, there's just some things that it's like you they need to take longer. Some calls we need to have more time to like if we need to continue calls or schedule more time later in the day, or like yeah, we're in a human business and we we we can't you can't just like overly optimize like your relationship with people, like it's yeah, it's not software, right?
SPEAKER_01Like, yeah. So I honestly feel like the most important metric is quality of hire at the end of the day, right? Like how many people are coming into your company and like staying with your company, like what's their like how many people that you have a certain amount of tenure, like um, and it's it's really important to keep track of that too for yourself, like as a recruiter, who who are you bringing out the company, how are they performing, you know, and then um how long are they staying with your company and and thinking through those things. And I think that the way that we're talking with candidates now and um, you know, some of our steps that we've involved in our interview process, like we do want people that are passionate about what we're building because I think at the end of the day, you if you're really passionate about the space and like the company, you know,
Quality Of Hire Over Call Volume
SPEAKER_01comes easily, you know. It's just like you you have fun with it. And it's funny because I I took that all the way back from like my uncle, who when I was selling shoes, he was like, if you have a good product, it sells itself, right? Like you know, it you just have to find the people that are interested in that product. And I I mean, I it's it's such a simple thing, but you know, it's uh it just makes sense. And almost every company that I'm at now, I'm like, Oh yeah, like if you have a really good running shoe, you just gotta find runners, you know, want to wear the shoe.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's it.
SPEAKER_00Like it becomes more about like awareness and relations, just opening doors so that more people can get exposure to it.
SPEAKER_01Like, exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I think um the other so there's like I I like that genuine passion. I I I definitely look for that. Like, I I also look at it in like energy levels, I think. Um I don't know if that's makes sense for everybody in every company, but I I like to see that level of engagement, like in the conversation. Um, and I actually just did a post today on curious to get your thoughts. So we're hiring at Secure Vision uh my company, and like the older I get, the more experienced I get, the more I obsess over behavioral traits. Like I just do not compromise, like they like if they don't have this makeup, then we just don't move forward. I don't care what their skill set is, or even like how good the references are. Like, and let me just share this list with you. I'm kind of curious to get your thoughts on it.
SPEAKER_04Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so like a lot of my questions are based around this. Um and the other pieces I ask questions about like business and strategic acumen. Like, do they actually understand how their role impacts the company North Star? Like, do they have that awareness? Um, but yeah, I dropped the list on the side. So
Behavioral Questions That Reveal Fit
SPEAKER_00I spend most of my time trying to cover like, are they fast, proactive, responsive, highly organized? 100% safety ratio is huge for me. It's like if you say you're gonna do it, you do it. Um expectation setting, hitting deadlines, call it how it is, like all of this stuff. And for people listening, like you can just go on my LinkedIn profile. Um, it's the post I did on Thursday, March 19th. Um, so you can see it there. But like this is another big thing that I like I really dial in on when I'm hiring people. Like, do I feel like they have these like kind of behavioral characteristics and do they operate this way, essentially?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I'm curious in in your interview process, how are you asking these questions? Like, are they um like multi-layer questions that you're digging into, like projects they've done and you know what that represented at the end of the day, or are you like yeah, being straightforward and asking these things? So, one thing that I feel like it's really part of during an interview process is there are some people out there that are just really good at interviewing and like answering these questions to what you want to hear. So it's how do you get around that? And how do you ask the behavioral questions to like almost you know, see the like the back end of their personality, you know, because then you can like flag some of those things. So I'm I'm curious, yeah. How are you asking these questions?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I ask like I ask like four or five questions on every interview, and then I decide if I'm gonna hire based on that. Like now, keep in mind it's like at the end of like I get the final round.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But but there's a handful of questions that I ask. So um the first one is I and this is this throws people off. Um, not like necessarily, I'm not trying to like, but it does make them think. Um, yeah. So I'll I'll ask them, like, hey, like if you were, depending on their role, I'll be like, hey, if you were made turn in, like, if you were promoted to CEO of your company tomorrow, or you promote a VP of talent acquisition, or like you can adjust, but like tell me your your strategy. What would you double down on? What would you change? How would you approach, like what do you think you could do better? Like, how would you approach running the department or the company? Because I want to understand like how they how they think and their level of like awareness of how their role interacts and collaborates with other parts of the team. And so that gives me like just like I want to understand like their thought process and problem solving because like we all rely on each other and we all like at my company have to look to our left and our right and know that like people have our back and that we're all kind of like feeding into the same mission and same North Star. And we understand, like the way that I I think about it is like literally, look, we had different job titles, like we have different responsibilities, but we all have one job, and and that's drive retention and growth of customer accounts, like straight up, right? It's like customer experience, retention, growth. We are all here to do that. We now we have different points of impact, but I want to make sure, like, are they commercially minded enough and like aware of that kind of like motion? So I ask that question a lot, which really gets at me like understanding their kind of problem solving and how they approach things. Um, yeah. So that's a big one I ask. Yeah, which is different. Which is also helpful, I think. Asking questions that people haven't gotten them a million times gets you out of the trap of like hearing the kid responses, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. No, I really love that. It kind of, you know, and then I listened to a podcast not too long ago, and I actually shared this in another podcast I was in from one of the co-founders of Anthropic. And she asked very similar like behavioral questions. Like I one of them was along the lines of um, what do you look like on your best day? Like if you were to come to work on your absolute best day, like tell me like what I'm gonna get from you. And and the other one was like the opposite, right? Like, tell me what yeah, tell me what your worst day looks like. And I actually thought that was like fascinating because I'm you know, for her, it's all about transparency. Like, I want to know who I'm bringing on to my company and um and what I'm gonna get on their worst day, you know, what's that gonna look like? And but I think asking those more behavioral questions is like very smart. And I know that our team does a lot of that as well. And I know our CEO definitely incorporates that. I think one thing that I really enjoy learning about is like a question along the lines of tell me a time that you've really gone out of your way for your team or your company. Like, like you went the extra mile, like you didn't do something inside of your job scope, like you went outside of your job scope to do something for your company. Yeah. Because that's something that we really look for at our company, right? Like, I mean, there's times that I go help out with my marketing team, you know, I'm I'm basically like I'm in talent, but I'm also doing people operations. Like we want to look for people that are willing to go outside of just their day-to-day and do, you know, like like they see something that needs to happen. And even though that's maybe not within their job scope, they're doing it. So that's like kind of a one of our behavioral questions that I like to ask. Cause I, yeah, just want to see like, how are they going the extra mile for their team or how are they going the extra mile for their company?
SPEAKER_00Right. Because it's like that's kind of going along the lines of like we all are here to do one job, right? And that's to grow the business. And like people that don't see their job in terms of a JD, but in terms of impact.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it's like, okay, like I'll do whatever it needs, like we need to do. Like, I know my core responsibility, like what I have to do, but like I'm here to make impacts, like, I'm here to grow this business, right? Yeah. Like, and and like those types of people, those are the people where it's like there's seven, eight-figure returns on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. And if you stack enough, like yeah, like that's really what we actually have in the with few people at our company that just were doing that, and we realized like these are the top performers at our company. So then we we thought through that, and we're like, well, how do we bring that back into like our interview process to like find people that have this like mindset? And um, I mean, we have a a a guy in our company that started as a support engineer, and he's now helping like leading, building, building out like our speech to speech model. So he basically started as like a support engineer and now is like on our research team, like a research engineering team, like helping to build out a speech to speech model. He's like, I don't even know how old he is, but uh, it's just it's amazing because that all started because he was curious. He wanted he like was so curious about learning more about our product, learning more about like what we were building, you know, our customer base, um, and just like drove that. And I just like was, I mean, I think we had like a ha internal hackathon that we did, and everyone was on a team, you know, building out our hackathon. And uh this guy was on five teams. Like he just reached out to five of the teams that were like, Can I can I be on your team too? And we're like, you know, and then all of a sudden we're all presenting our hackathon, um, like our projects, and his face kept popping up on every team, and we're like, What? Like, yeah, but like it was amazing, you know, like just to have that mindset. Like, I just want to learn, I want to learn. And so, you know, how can you, you know, find the like that personality, like those traits from someone, and like how can you ask those questions in an interview process to find that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's funny, it's like as we're talking about this, this is like the really first time, frankly, I've like crystallized my thinking around it. I think like for particularly behavioral questions, it's like asking questions that they haven't heard before because it's like that's what yeah makes like them go from automated response into critical thinking.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, another one that I asked that I I like, I guess like again, like this is kind of cool because it's helping me think through like how I what I really think, like as we're talking about this. But like I look for people that know the difference between scoring goals and winning games. Like to me, that's that's critical. So, like what I mean by that is like one of my questions is okay, so like we have a wonderful onboarding process for our new customers when we do embedded recruiting. Like, we have the process ironed out step by step and for new hires to make sure that they're successful. I said, But hypothetically, imagine we had zero onboarding and if you were just assigned to an account without any guidance from us, what would you do? Like, how would you make it successful? And I look at like in terms of the response, is it all very tactically driven on like metrics and and and which are important, but like, or are they aligned with business outcomes and working backward from there to how they approach their metrics and driving success? Yeah. So if like they don't talk about like opening up opportunities, identifying threats, understanding the company's North Star, like in their own words, like it's not all the same, or are they just focused on like X amount of submittals, scheduling a call, like just talking about like basic like alignment stuff. Like, I I kind of like the analogy I give to my team is like, look, like helping our customers hire is like scoring goals. Retaining and growing the account, that's winning games. You could score a hundred hypothetically, you could score a hundred goals and still lose the game. Yeah, like it's so it's it's like I think that there's I think that translates to like basically a reposition. Like, there's you have to score goals to win games, but there's still a difference. And and does the does the person understand the difference and kind of understand the bigger picture behind like what their role is there to do?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that's like I really like that. I kind of like I try to judge, and there's a lot of behavioral stuff that pops up in terms of how they'd approach stuff there too. So it that's another one of like my very few interview questions that I ask.
SPEAKER_01I think it it's funny because it makes me think like one of our values is be deeply curious, right? And I think if you ask enough questions, you're gonna find the answer. And that's kind of you know, along the same lines of like what you're looking for. If you jump into a role and you don't have much guidance or resources or like mentorship, and and honestly, that happens a lot at startups, right? Like especially if you get in early, you just have to ask questions and you have to like you know create relationships and understand the business. And so uh, yeah, I mean, I I love that because I think it's just you know, again, behavioral trying to figure out like what steps are you gonna take and how are you gonna find the answer to make sure that your role or your company is successful, and a lot of that is through like navigating through, and that's what I really enjoyed about this person we hired and the support engineer is like he just asked a ton of questions, like he just dug in everywhere around the entire business, and then he just figured it all out because he learned and he he dug and and and that's something that I like love about that that value of being like deeply curious because if you if you ask enough questions, you're going to find the answer, you know, eventually.
SPEAKER_00I should probably put deeply curious like in this in this list of mine. I agree, which I think is likely, but yeah, I think like deeply curious, ask for clarification. Yeah, I'm just constantly refining this, so I'm I I'm gonna I'm gonna update it. I'm gonna add yeah. I like it. That's yeah, like you have to be intellectually curious and like engaged, and like you should be asking a lot of i oh oh so a big I've I a lot of my decision is based on the quality of their questions too. Yeah, I will not hire somebody who doesn't ask me good questions. Like if they just show up and like, hey, what's your PTO policy? Which is like fine, ask me, ask me. I will tell you. And I'm not that's not me, like that's not me saying I don't want people taking by the way, that's not me saying I want people taking PTO. I'm just saying, like, you have an opportunity to talk to me and understand our business strategy and what we're here to do. Like, show up, like ask me, ask me good questions, ask me smart questions, um yeah, and then have follow-up questions, like let's have a real conversation, right? Like back and forth. Like that's I usually leave like 15-20 minutes to field their questions, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's funny because like I I think even though I I feel less intelligent when this happens, but like I think my favorite times are is when Canada starts asking asking me questions that I don't know how to answer. Like I'm like, yeah, that's a good one. Like, yeah, yeah. A lot of times it's like they'll just get really technical with me. And you know, even though I'm hiring for these technical roles, like I don't, you know, I don't know everything down like to the T, but it's I I love when they like have enough interest to like start digging into those questions with me. And a lot of times I'm like, that's a great question. I don't know the answer to that. Like I'm I'm I'll you know have to ask the hiring manager, but it's yeah, I I I agree with that. I think when someone comes because a lot of times you do get those genetic, like, well, can you tell me what the rest of the interview process looks like, or can you tell me about your company culture? And and to be honest, like those ones I think make a lot of sense, especially in a startup. Like, if I were interviewing at another startup, like I would want to understand their culture, you know, like people can say all they want on their websites, but it's like how true are they to the culture that they're representing? And a lot of time you'll see that too throughout the interview process with the people that you meet. Um, but yeah, I I like I like those questions that almost make you have to think because you're like like an example would be like so.
SPEAKER_00I interview recruiters all the time because that's like the like lifeblood of our business is to hire great recruiters.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So if they'll ask me, like, hey, talk to me, like if they get in, it's like, okay, ask, ask me about culture, ask me about whatever you need to. Like, let's do, you know, we can do all this stuff to button it up to make sure you have a good understanding. But then it's like, ask me about like you sometimes every once in a while I'll get somebody who asks about like our growth strategy or like what we want to accomplish over the next year, like what I'm focused on and what I need to like accomplish. And so then I'll talk about how we're building out our go-to-market team for the first time and like we're getting traction, but it's challenging. And and then it's like, what do they do next? Right. And it's like, we're like, so what seems to be working? What are the challenges? What's not working? Why do you think it's not and like they're doing that kind of stuff? And I'm like, oh, this is like we're hiring this person because they get it. Like they're yeah, they immediately go into like problem-solving mode, and like we're already working together, essentially. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, not necessarily like solution, like doing solutions, but it's like they they're curious, like they're trying to figure out like how the machine is working, what's working, what's not working. They're kind of analyzing thinking, you can kind of see that they're just like, okay, yeah, you know, that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01Um I would when they yeah, like uh just made me think of when they come to the conversation and they ask me about like our competitors and like what's your plan to like beat these competitors in your field, like for us it would be like deep ground. And if they've done that research and they're like looking into like who our competitors are and you know what how we think we're gonna outperform them or how we're gonna win this race, like I I love those questions too. It's just like okay, you came, you did your research, and um, I remember like I I still ask this every once in a while. It kind of depends on who I'm talking to. Like, tell me, like, if tell me like what you know about our product, and it actually blows my mind how many people will come to an interview and be like, honestly, I didn't really do that much research on it. And I it takes like five minutes, it doesn't even take that much time, like and you have chat now, like what just yeah, so I don't know, Claude, Gemini, Chat GBT, like you have perplexity, like whatever, like use whatever too. But and and we say that too. Like, I tell everyone, like, we don't care if you use AI to prep for your interview, it's just like we know we try to refrain from them using AI in the interview, but like I think, yeah, like I love when people come and have done the research like thoroughly. And there's some people that come and even like start talking through my our models with me. And I'm like, you know more than I do, I think, on some of this stuff. And you're like, you would get so technical, but like I love that and like asking questions around it because again, that goes back to kind of showing like their passion and like that they're already finding things that you know that that are interesting to them about like our product and what we're building to like ask questions about it. So no, I agree with you. I think bringing good questions to the interview is very important. And um I don't know if I would say that I like just skip over anyone that does like ask me because like especially if we're reaching out to candidates, like from like an outsourcing perspective, um, you know, we're trying to win them over. And right, right. And sometimes, like since I'm the beginning of the process, I think it's a lot different. If you're at the end of the process, sometimes they'll be like, Well, uh I have questions, but I think they're like, I think I would probably want to talk with the hiring manager about these. And so and I respect that, yeah. Yeah, so but I yeah, I think at the end of the day, like those those questions always like make me smile. I'm like, well, and then it also brings me like I'm like, I need to go back and like make sure I'm on top of these things because sometimes people bring me things and I'm like, I should know this, like, and why do I not know this? And I'm almost embarrassed. I don't know this. And so then I go back and I make sure next time anyone asks me that question, I know everything about it, you know, like so.
SPEAKER_00Um I love those situations. I know, I love it too. That's awesome. Well, we covered a lot of ground there. You gotta look at a lot of good stuff here.
SPEAKER_04Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, I you know, I I would like to keep riffing on this, but I I do want to, there's some other stuff that I'd love to cover with you. Um, you know, I'd love to get a sense for like when you think about your own professional development uh over the next several years. Like, can you tell us a little bit about who you want to become professionally, what skills you want to continue to work on, like how you want to continue to evolve as a talent leader?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's it's so funny because like when we were just talking about college and just getting through school, I was thinking back to the fact that I was like, I had no idea what I wanted to do in college. And I don't know if you've ever met those people that like wanted to be a doctor when they were like two years old and became a
Building An Innovative Talent Career
SPEAKER_01doctor. I'm like, how do people know that? You know, and just like, or did they just like convince themselves so hard that they that that's what they wanted to do? Because it took me quite a long time to like find recruiting and like get into this field. Um, and I talk with my the people who I report into with uh about this all the time, about like my growth. And um I think over the past, even just like the past four years of being at Assembly A, I have had the most growth I've had in my total career. Um a lot of it came from the things that we talked about. And, you know, I think eventually I I would love to be even, you know, I like a seen as a leader at a company and like overseeing all of talent and like building it out. And something I've really enjoyed about what I've done here is like I have had a big contribution to like building out everything from scratch. You know, I came in here and there was like 30 employees, and so how much that's changed from four years ago to like where it is now. But how much you learn along the way and how you're able to apply that again would be very interesting, or even just as you keep growing. Um, you know, I I I love my company and I think I've had such a great opportunity of like learning, and especially like AI is it's such a new space. Like a lot of the things that we're learning are kind of learning on the go. Um, but ultimately, yeah. I mean, like if I were to become VP of talent or you know, like oversee everything, which uh, you know, right now I I'm heading a lot of like the talent aspects, but I don't know. I think the next five years, like I just want to keep growing, learning from others. Um I'm I'm the type of personality, like I want to be the first to do things and I think about that a lot. And I think sometimes I get hesitant because I'm like I think back to like the very first maybe like AI started, or even like open AI or you know, even like Google or Amazon. It's like, what did they do first to like and and like how did they come up with the idea to do it to be like so successful? And like how can you do that like in talent? So like right now we're seeing this big shift of like the market, and there's like certain things where I'm like, can we change our hiring process and like just make it really unique that we really stand out? And like, like just it's a small part of our business, you know, but but could it really like change how assembly AI is represented in the field? Like and have people talk about it. I just interviewed with Assembly AI and they're doing something I've never seen before, you know. Like, how can you do that? And I I think I want to get to a point in my career in the next couple of years of like being that person where people come to me and they're like, you just built out this amazing process that no one's ever done before. Like, what did you do? And I think about that often. And I I talk about like my CEO and like I even just right now for outsourcing, I'm like, what can we do that's so different than everyone else that people like are reading our messages and they're like, I want to work there, you know? Or like, is there, you know, is there a different like can we build out a tool that like we send to them and you know, and it's like they click on it and it just becomes this whole experience and they're like, this is amazing. Like, can I like I want to interview with this company just because of like this outsourcing message? And so I I don't know, like I think about this stuff a lot, but I'm like, I haven't come up with a solution. Um, and I think over the next couple of years, as I grow and learn and especially implementing AI, I don't know how much you're implementing AI in your day-to-day right now, but I've been just messing around with like lovable and claude, and I I built out like this offer experience, um, just using those tools. And now that we have like as recruiters, our hands-on these tools, like you don't need to be an engineer to build out your own experience anymore. You know, like you can use these tools. You might need the engineering team to help you implement it and like push it to production, but like if you have an idea, like you really can run with it now if you have those tools under your belt. So I'm like, yeah, I would love to be an innovative leader. I feel like this is a really long-winded answer to your question, but I would love to be a very innovative leader that has you know the creativity to do something new and like I don't know, be that person that people are like, Kenzie did this first. And look how big it got. I don't know what that is yet, but it's I think it's gonna happen, you know, as I keep learning. But I don't know if that was a good answer to your request. Yeah, it's a great question, or great answer. I was thinking about it as I was talking, so I just kind of rambled along.
SPEAKER_00No, that's like again, that's just like kind of a character trait of an intellectually curious person, or you're just like there's all these different things like you want but it was cohesive, like it all kind of ties into like being creative, problem solving, like thinking of different ways to approach uh standing out and providing a great experience to like recruit top talent. Like, yeah, I mean that's that's a lot of what I think about. I just I think about like the question I'm asking a lot this year is like, how do we appropriately blend like human data and AI? Like you like like from a workforce perspective, it's like what should our recruiters be doing? What kind of data workflows can be uh automation can we be leveraging? Like how to appropriately incorporate AI into a people business, like how to like leverage things to accelerate, uh create great experiences, hire the best people. Um I think like that's sort of the formula like I'm trying to refine.
SPEAKER_01Like yeah, yeah. I just I mean it's it's it's hard. This is a really different market. And I don't know. I mean, I wasn't around when Google, you know, came out. Well, I was, but I wasn't, you know, in the field. Um but it's it's a market where like you really do have to try and stand out. Um, because there's so many AI startups out there. There's so many just startups right now in the tech space in general. And I was talking with my CEO about this. It's just there's we're all kind of competing for like the same talent pool in a way. Like we're all looking for people that have been in this tech space that really understand it, that are passionate about AI, that are, you know, want to be in this in this field. And it's like, how do you stick out when there's so many? And
Standing Out In The AI Talent Race
SPEAKER_01I mean, your product's one of them, right? Like if like I said earlier, like if you have a really great product, but you know, we're still growing that audience. And our our product is so skewed to like developers because we're like a voice infrastructure company. So, you know, I a lot of our target audience is like very technical, like developers. Um, so I have to try and figure out like how do we implement that though from like a talent perspective, and how do we like show up and be like, we have the coolest product out there, you know, like and how how do we get creative with that? Because the same people are probably getting targeted by Anthropic, OpenAI, 11 Labs, um, Cohere, you know, like all of these other AI. So, like, how do you make yourself stand out? I mean, even for you and your business, I mean, there's tons of recruiters out there right now. So it's like, what what makes you the best and what makes you more creative? What makes you more fun to work with? Like for us right now, like what we talked about is just we're a very dense company. And I think I talked to you about this earlier too. But it's just you like there's 75 people in our company and we're serious, whereas like, you know, all these other companies are like 10xing headcount. And so um it's dramatic. But I mean, anthropic and open eye, I have, but um, you know, you at our company, every employee works so closely to the product and to our customers. And I think that's what makes us different than a lot of these other startups. You know, they're just growing so fast. And so, and a lot of these people like get to this point where like they want to get back to like working directly with the product and the customers, like that's the part they enjoy the most. So, like, how do we take that message and then you know, apply it and make it, you know, creative that it's it's gonna stick out versus everyone, every other message? I mean, it's how any recruiter has to think, right? Like, you just have how is my message gonna be the most creative one to stick out? But how can you take that even a step further? You know, like from an entire experience.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I think one of the like takeaways I'm getting from what you're saying, it's like it's also really understanding your audience and like getting in the heads of the candidates that you are actually targeting, not just like the top talent, like best practices, like of course that matters, but like specifically the talent you're going after, what other opportunities are they considering what can you offer that maybe they're missing out on, or like contrast with those other opportunities and like thinking about the specific profiles, like it sounds like you take a lot of time to actually kind of really think through their thought process and then position your talent strategy, your approach, like everything based on that, which is like smart. Yeah, it is like kind of the layer deep deeper, right?
SPEAKER_01Um yeah. I that's like one thing I like talking like with my hiring managers about. I'm like, if you weren't working here and like someone was gonna reach out to from our company, like what would you want to hear like on your team? Because every team is a little different too, right? And like what people are gonna be working on, like what as an engineer, like right now, let's say um, you know, we have like a senior software engineer in machine learning. And I, you know, like what specifically about your role like would excite you if like you weren't working here at this company? Like what would you want to hear? And like having those conversations and really like picking those things out. And then it's a lot of it's just trial and error too. Like they'll start sending out this message, okay, like this one's getting traction, this one's not. Like, how do we refine it? Like, let's go back and talk more about it. But you know, I'll talk to my hiring manager about it, I'll talk to my CEO about it. Um, you know, even sometimes, like like right now, we're having our CEO send out messages directly because we're like, well, for these types of candidates, I think our CEO would make a bigger impact. And and sometimes, and like even like our VP of success and support will directly reach out to people. I mean, he's in sales, so he's the best person to sell his role. And so um, it's just getting creative and strategic and being like, how you know, how can we win these these candidates with like such a competitive market?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. It's uh I I think executive outreach is definitely important.
SPEAKER_04So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like, yeah. It's it's that's big. Um, we we do like I I do uh help recruit. And uh I guess the secret between the two of us sometimes when my top sourcer is sourcing, she'll use my profile for for certain proposals.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh yeah, and you can do that. I think in in cool, like we can link directly to our CEO's account and think on like Jem or something, but uh he really likes he likes to do it, yeah, yeah. So I mean yeah, yeah, I think um it is really important because especially for like your more senior level roles, it just the fact that the CEO went out of their way to send you a message, I I think that
Executive Outreach And CEO Recruiter Alignment
SPEAKER_01already like I'd be more interested in taking that call, you know. And he even says, like, I'll take the first call and talk with them, and and then if it all works out, like then they'll come to me.
SPEAKER_00And sometimes like the word track or how like a CEO will think about things is just a little different. Like one of the uh people I hired for the GTM team, I actually did all the hands-on recruiting myself, like all of it. Um I did like outbound, like myself, like uh on LinkedIn. We also used uh handshake because it had like younger talent, so it's like the one that the people apply like through the colleges and stuff. Um, but there was one of the people I hired, same one who has that big massive like blanket hoodie thing. Um, he had just started like another sales job, and like in his summary, it was talking about like he was really into like wanted to get into tech sales, but then he was working at like uh a company that was selling um like some something like way different, right? Something way different. And so I reached out to him like, hey, like so you're interested in like tech sales, like this is what I'm doing over here. I have secure vision. I also just started a software company, stuff set like AI for uh interviewing and and uh sourcing, and um you know this could be something that's really interesting. And yeah, he he followed up saying, Well, I you know, I just started another job, but let's keep in touch. I'm like, and so he followed up with it, and this is maybe where it's like a little different. It's like look, I hear you, and also like look, this could be your shot to get into tech recruiting. You know, if this is really what you want to do, we should talk. And yeah, you know, it's just like very kind of like again, it's just like a very, it's not there's no template there. It's it's just like a git, you know, it's just different. I think be as like a founder and like talking about like, look, like I read your profile. I think it's like just based on what you're saying, it's like, are you really doing what you really think you you want to? Like, let's that's awesome, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sure enough, like we do two interviews, and I think I hired him on the spot in the final round. I was so impressed. I think I hired him uh while he was in the office.
SPEAKER_02Um, wow, really cool.
SPEAKER_00But but yeah, I think like some of that is like true. It's like when there's like really important hires to make, like like talents, like really it is truly the most important part. Yeah, it's the biggest investment companies will make too. Like, think about payrolls, like the biggest annual investment every company makes. Like it should be a top priority for everybody.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it always is like, and I don't know what every company, there's a few companies as that were, you know, as a recruiter, I just felt like you're the bottom of the food chain type type of situation. And I mean, I'm so lucky I land on assembly AI and how they treat me, but any company that does look at their recruiters that way is doing it wrong. I mean, like your recruiters are literally the ones finding profiles to pass to you. And so it's like you have to like they are the ones making the ultimate decision of like who's getting hired. And you know, you get a selection pool of like who you're gonna hire, but they all come from your recruiter. So, like if your recruiter wasn't there to like send you these, you know, people, it's just it's yeah, it's amazing to me because it's just like they really do have a huge impact on like how you're growing your company because they're choosing those initial profiles to send through the pipeline.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, the way that I think about it, and it's like in my perspective has evolved as I've gotten older and like more experienced, but like it's like crew's like they're like your investment manager, they're they're they're managing the largest investment you will ever make, like all your VCM, all your ARR, like all of it, like most of it is going toward payroll. This is like a like eight-figure investment that the company is making on an annual basis. Like, you got to have the right person in that seat. Like, you need and and they need the right resources. Like, this is like a massive investment that you're making. Like you're making an eight-figure investment, and you know, like you need the right qualified person running it, you need to make it a priority. You need to, I mean, like, if it's the biggest investment, like it should have like the like you should, I mean, it should be like a pretty buttoned up process and approach, uh, and strategic point of impact within the business. And um, I guess we're sort of biased, I suppose, but like to me, it's like just like look at just pure dollars. Look at a PL. Like, it's like it's literally the biggest investment companies are making. Yeah, get it right.
SPEAKER_01Like and it it kind of just goes back to like what I was saying earlier, is just also, I mean, understanding your business. And if you have a bigger business that has like a bunch of like levels before getting between like you and the the recruiter, I just think it's so important, like for you and your comp like you're running your company. And I'm assuming that you are very close to a lot of your recruiters the way that you've been talking about it, but having like those conversations directly with your recruiting team so that they understand like what you are looking for and understand your business and and really coaching them um is huge because I just see a lot of companies where there's just such a huge gap between like their CEO and their recruiters. Like, there's so many companies I never even once had any communication with my CEO what whatsoever. And I'm like, I just think that's really important. I think it's important that you, your team, your recruiters who are out there finding the best people for your company, have a some sort of relationship directly with the CEO. Because I mean, if you're building out an entire company, like you should want that team to understand what you're building, you know, why you're passionate about it, like what your vision is. And a lot of times, like, you know, companies have these all hands, but it's just something I respect so much about my CEO is just he comes to me directly and has these conversations. And of course, we're a really small company, but like the way that he's wanting to build out this company is that that that continues to happen because he just thinks it's so important on every team, you know, just like working directly with these teams to understand the vision and that everyone's aligned. And I do see as these companies grow, I think they lose touch with some of that with the recruiters. And it would be cool to see companies, you know, take a step back and reevaluate that and and what like you know, what's being put in between the you know, the top leaders to the recruiters and like how can you close that gap a little bit and or even just completely close this gap and just have have that relationship because I just think it's I mean, it's important, like that's how the process goes. You know, you start with the recruiter, and a lot of times, like for our company, you end with the CEO. So those are like some of the most important conversations that you have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. I like I I couldn't agree more. It's like it's a very strategic part of the business, and it like you need to have those direct conversations. I don't think uh like executive should ever take too far a step back for being directly involved in and recruiting. Yeah, I I I have done it in the past and I regretted it. I I'm very yeah, like I'm very, very hands-on with anybody who comes to to work for me. And it's I just it's it's also like it takes a lot of discipline, like keeping the bar like really high, even when the pressure's on to grow. Um yeah, and by the bar, by the sometimes what I mean by the bar is like we might speak with an amazing person, they're just not the right behavioral fit, or like they're not, yeah, like there's they might be awesome, uh, and and but just not the right fit. Um but yeah, I think it's like executives should be involved, and you gotta just maintain a super high bar, even when you feel the pressure to grow. Yeah, you know, that's the hard part.
SPEAKER_04It builds so much respect.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I think it it does build so much respect. Like if you see like it, you know, even today, like I have so much respect for the leaders at my business because they're still all so hands-on, you know, they're all helping. And I have seen, I was actually just talking to one of my coworkers about this the other day. Like, my CEO is still building stuff. My VP of success and sales is like if his team is underwater, he's getting in there and doing, you know, the dirty work. Like, you know, our our support engineer manager, like he's still hands-on. Like everyone at our company is still in there, like doing things that they maybe were doing 10 years ago, and they they still love it. And they're and they're doing it because they're passionate about what we're building. And so it's just like, you know, even at a bigger company, you know, I'd hope that you know, your CEO, because like your recruiters will respect that, you know, they're like, they love to see that. Like if you're having those conversations directly with them, and um, you know, even if it's like a team meeting, it's just hearing that directly from your CEO and they're coming to your team to be like, I want to talk this through with you, and just this is what we're looking for. Is then you have questions with talk, like let's like what are we seeing? And um, what do you have questions on? I don't know. I just think it makes such an impact and creates such a respect for um, you know, your your team and and your CEO at your company. Like I think I have actually probably grown more passionate about what we're building because I've built a relationship with my CEO.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, that's what yeah, I love that. I think that's really good advice and hopefully executive student again, take that to heart.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I again I've never been like I haven't been at a bigger Twilio was fairly large, and I had a short stint there. And um, you know, I worked at a recruiting agency where I mean that's huge. And so it's just because we had branches like all over the United States, but like during those experiences, I just remember, I mean, we were so out of touch. Like, I don't even know if I knew who my CEO was at my at my recruiting agency. I only knew the person like leaving our office.
SPEAKER_04Wow, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so disgusting. I mean, I I I did, but it was like on all, and I was like, you know, but it's just like if they were to reach out to me, like, hey, I want to get on a call with you and and share with you more about like my vision for our company, if like I want to get a call on like with your team and just have a direct conversation with you, I think it would just Would have changed my whole perspective, you know, just from the beginning and continuing the like those communications too. Like you can't just do it once and then just not talk to them for like three years. You know, you have to make sure that you're again. So it's just, I think that's it's really important. Like your recruiters are out there trying to find you the best people, but are they gonna find you the best people if they don't know you, they don't, you know, you know, they don't know your vision, they don't care about you know what you're gonna care as much too, right?
SPEAKER_00Like just building that relationship will people will typically dig a little deeper, I think, too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So exactly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, anyways, look, this has been a lot of fun. We're coming up on time here, so uh it's probably a good good stopping point. But Kenzie, I just want to say thank you so much for joining me on the show. I've had a lot of fun chatting with you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you too. I I had a great time. I appreciate you having me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this was a good one for sure.
