EP 204: Scaling Yourself, Then Scaling the Business

Rona Shoaienia, grew up in Toronto after moving from Munich, and being surrounded by diverse cultures shaped how she sees people and potential. She studied psychology, traveled widely, and later experienced anxiety, an experience that reshaped how she leads and shows up at work. Now, as Head of Talent at Nue.io, she’s focused on building a well-oiled talent machine in hyper-growth where speed and quality have to coexist.

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Transcript

Welcome And Meet Rona

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Hello everyone. Welcome to the show. Got a very exciting episode today. We're joined by Rona Showa Iniya. And Rona is currently the head of talent over at new.io. And I believe your team is currently headquartered in Toronto, right? Which is where you're based. Is that accurate? Is the team there or just you?

SPEAKER_00 1:08

It's in the Bay Area, actually. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

It's the Bay Area.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

But we have an office in Toronto as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Oh, you do? Nice. Where's the headquartered initially? Is it Toronto or SF?

SPEAKER_00 1:17

SF.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

SF. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

So how do you technically?

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Ah, okay. How did you guys land on uh Toronto then?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Our CEO is actually a Torontonian.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Well, there you go. That's a good reason. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

So I think he probably decided that, you know, we have a lot of good talent here and decided to open an office.

Growing Up Between Munich And Toronto

SPEAKER_01 1:35

I guess it's sort of the perks of being in the boss, right? You can just be like, yeah, you know, I don't want to be. That's why it's like people ask me, so my company, one of my company's uh secure vision is uh based in Reston, Virginia. And it's like, well, why Rust? It's like, well, that's just like my family's here. Where I'm from. Right, yeah, exactly. You know, um, well, cool, cool. Well, Rona, yeah, very, very much so looking forward to having you on the show today. I really enjoyed getting to know you on the prep call. And then again, it was good kind of catching up before we hit record, but looking forward to catching up some more. Um, but yeah, let's just let's just jump into it. Now you grew up, I know you were born in Germany, but you grew up in Toronto, is that right?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yes, that's correct. Yeah. So I moved in, I moved to Toronto when I was five, and I've lived here ever since. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

So what part of Germany are you from?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Munich.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Munich. Do you have any memories, or was it too you too young?

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah, no, I actually do. I uh I remember our house. I remember one of our neighbors who was this older lady, and she'd take me out, and she actually got my ears pierced with me without my parents knowing. Are you serious? Yeah, she got haircuts for me. Like she'd just take me out and do stuff. I so I remember her very fondly. I remember our school or my school, and I even remember the smell of the school. So there's like bits and pieces that I still I mean, I was five, right? So, like I was still, I guess, like a child, and and I spoke German fluently as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Do you still speak German?

SPEAKER_00 3:02

So, no, uh, maybe like as much as a five or six-year-old. Um, my friend and I actually, two of my friends, we went there maybe 10 years ago for a vacation. And it's crazy because like a lot of it actually came back to me.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Um, and so by like day one, I was probably not that good. But then by day seven, like it just a lot of it came back because you I don't use it, right? And so my parents still uh use it at home. Like when I was growing up and they didn't want me to understand what they were saying, they would start talking in German. So like there's words that I even thought were Farsi because I'm Persian too. Um, but they ended up being German. And so there's like three different languages in my brain still.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Do you so do you speak Farsi at all?

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Yes, that's uh that that I'm fluent in, and I can read and write as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Oh wow, good for you. Yeah, yeah. That's that's impressive. Yeah, that's really impressive. Um, well, cool. So and then so Toronto, you grew up, you actually grew up in the city, right? Yeah. What was that like?

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Amazing. I mean, um, I still consider it a small town. Like I love big cities. I tended to get really bored of it as a as a child, but we lived on I don't know if you've ever been here, but like on the main street, which is Young Street, and we lived on Young Street like three different times, which is like one of the busiest streets. Um, but it's great. There were so many first generation immigrants, and every single school that I went to, like you had people from literally all over the world, and they were also first generation. So a lot of them were newcomers as well. And so I grew up with like a lot of Persian people, like my own kind. I grew up with a lot of Koreans, a lot of Chinese people, a lot of Indian people. And so my whole friend group from childhood to now is like just mixed with a whole bunch of different races. But I think even though we're all from various different backgrounds, like one thing that you have in common with everyone is that you're all first generation immigrants. And so you kind of all go through the same thing of like trying to fit into the Canadian like Western system, despite being from like the eastern hemisphere.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Yeah, it's it's um I'm sure a pretty, pretty cool life experience, right? And it is nice, it's nice to live in areas where there's people from a lot of different walks and lives and different cultural backgrounds. Like I'm from the DC area, and it's something that I don't think as a kid I appreciated as much as I do now, is just like how culturally diverse the area is. Like my friends growing up were like I had friends from all over the place that were first generation or maybe even born overseas, but like I had friends from uh Iran, Venezuela, uh different parts like throughout like Africa, um, you know, just all over the freaking place. Um and it's just something that like again as a as a kid, you don't necessarily like value it. Not necessarily, yeah. Um, but then as an adult, it's like it's it's a pretty cool city here because you can walk down the street, you're gonna hear five different languages.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Exactly. Yeah, it teaches you a lot about the world and different cultures and I think so.

Only Child Energy Reading And Water

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Yeah, I think it's it's really if if someone's lucky enough to be able to experience different cultures, it's uh it could be a really impactful part of someone's development, right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's really cool. Um, so you were an only child. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

What was that?

SPEAKER_01 6:28

I'm just curious, yeah. What was that like from your perspective?

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Uh as a child, I hated it. Like really, yeah, because it was just really boring. I'm like, everyone else had siblings, and I was probably the only person I knew that didn't. I'd even like when I was really young, I'd make up like that. I had a sister who was 18.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

You made it up.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Yeah, like I would just make up an imaginary siblings or like pretend I had siblings, just because it's kind of lonely when you're a child, I would say, especially when like everyone else has siblings and stuff. Now, as an adult, I love it. I'm so happy I'm an only child, but I think like growing up, it it is a bit tricky, especially if you don't have like a ton of family otherwise, um in the same region that you grow up in. Um, which is probably why like I was always really social and I had a lot of friends because I didn't have anyone at home to play with.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Yeah, I hear you. Also gives you like, I think um, sometimes only children uh are they gonna be like more introspective in a sense, like because it was like more a lot more thinking time, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Definitely a thinker, always self-aware, like from as long as I can remember. I just like always analyzed my own behavior. I was always thinking, I was always, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Right. Positives and drawbacks, I'm sure. Right. You're thinking about it. I I speak, I'll speak from my own experiences. Like, I I had a kind of a like I was a single child on my mom's side, and then on my dad's side, I had like several siblings. We just weren't that close though. So I had this like weird kind of but yeah, I kind of know that that single child kind of experience too. Um, but yeah, you said you were really social. You also said you're like a big reader, right? What kind of uh books were you into? What did you read as a kid?

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Goosebumps, that was my favorite genre. Like, I remember one summer I read every single there was like 25 of them, and I and I literally would like rent it. You know, do you remember the library cards like back in the night?

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Of course, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Or the early 2000s, yeah. I would put them out and I would read everything, like every type of book. I loved books so much. Like, yeah, I also I learned recently, very recently, a lot of people when they read, they can't picture stuff, like they don't have the ability to imagine anything. They have like it's like a special capability in your brain, and I I didn't know that until very recently. Not everyone has the ability to do that to visualize, no way, yeah. I didn't know that either.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

A lot of people or like some like how I think it's quite a lot, actually.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Uh really have no ability. Yeah, I know I was really shocked. Like, if you ask someone to close their eyes and imagine something, they don't they not everyone has the ability to do that. I didn't realize that because it's just like to me, it was so important, and that's where my reading came. I would literally create movies in my mind. Oh, yeah, which is why I love to read so much.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yeah, that's awesome. That just reminds me of the whole movie in my mind thing. Have you ever do you listen to audiobooks at all?

SPEAKER_00 9:30

No, I like to read, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Yeah, and I do too. Like, so the audiobooks now they have like some it's kind of funny. They do like these dramatized versions now where it's like they'll actually have a cast and like actors, and their whole tagline is like a movie in your mind or something like that. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. So there's like a bunch of like background noises and stuff, it's kind of interesting. Yeah, anyways. Sorry, just got when you said that it made me think of made me think of that. Um, cool. And then you uh you're also into swimming, is that right? Was that like competitively or just like for fun? Or I know you seem to be doing a lot that a lot it wasn't competitive.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Um we we always like we moved around a lot, but you like we usually lived in apartments because it was just the three of us. Um, aside from from like a few years when we did move into a house, there was always a pool, like a like a public pool for that building. And so I spent all my summers from probably like the first grade to the fifth grade swimming every single day. Um, and so my mom also put me in swimming lessons, and I think I finished all my lessons like before I was eight or nine. Um, and then when I got into university, I actually took the lifeguard exam. And so I did that, and I did lifeguarding while I was in school, and then I also taught swimming, which I hated.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

I hated teaching kids because it takes a lot of a lot of patience, God bless us.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

And it's kind of scary because they kind of go off on their own and and and uh they don't listen and it's very dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

So like I just I didn't I don't know if I'd want to be responsible for other people's children's like in a pool.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

No, and even like when I was lifeguarding, I had kids go under and it gave me a lot of trauma. I had to save two, I remember. Seriously, yeah, because like you know those donuts, like they would go in the donuts and then they'd fall through.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Um I know what do you mean by save, like CPR?

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Not CPR, like I catch it right away. Oh, you'd have to jump go under, and then and then you knew that they were not gonna backup, so you'd have to jump.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

I don't need all that pressure in my life. That's that's yeah, I always like I'm I'm worried. Like, I don't like being like with my daughter's like uh friends if I'm just the only adult, because I'm like, I don't need this kid like falling, and then it's like I know it. You don't ever want to like return a child to their parent in like a worse condition than like when they when they drop some when you want them, like yeah, so I always take it.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

It's a lot of pressure, and uh they don't like it, they're getting they're very scared of water, and so like they're just not having a good time. So I hated it, but I mean anyway, I loved I loved swimming, like that was I still like to this day. I love water, I love the ocean, I love the like everything like water is like my safe place. I love water, yeah. You live in a kind of a cold area though, so yeah, I don't see it that often.

Psychology Spark And Travel Favorites

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Oh man. Um, so in high school, it sounded like you you did you leave, you said you left home to study psychology. Was it in like 12th grade, or was that for university, or you yeah, pretty early on decided that you were pretty like passionate about that, right? Or wanted to pursue it.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Yeah, like in high school, I never knew what I wanted to do or what I wanted to study. Uh, I didn't do well in school either my whole life. Like I was always very smart, and teachers would say, like, she's very smart, but I wouldn't do well in school academically. I think maybe I just wasn't interested or I wasn't interested in the subjects, or I don't know, I don't know what it was, but I I never really did well in school um until I got to the 12th grade and I realized like, okay, I really gotta get it together because I don't really have much of a choice at this point. And and so I became very studious, like overnight, basically. Um, and I took a psychology class and I just absolutely fell in love with it. And I read a book, um, I can't remember the name now, but it was uh about a kid who went to a psych ward. They made a movie about it, actually. Um, he went to a psych ward and so he like lived in the psych ward and the whole book was on his perspective. And I like I fell in love with psychology and psychiatry, and so I knew I definitely wanted to study psychology. I didn't know what I wanted to do as a career, but I knew like I at least wanted to go and study that. So that's kind of how I decided to go that route.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yeah, and it sounds like it sounds like you became pretty ambitious in terms of like becoming a high achiever around that same time, right? Was it do you feel like it was an environment-based thing? You were placed in a new environment and it just sort of kicked in where you're like, or was it before you moved?

SPEAKER_00 14:11

I think I was always a high achiever. Like I realize this as like as an adult now, as someone in their 30s, I realized I was a perfectionist since I was a child, but I never realized it because when when you think of perfectionism, you think of like people who care about details of like where the knife and the fork goes and like where you put the plate. Those types of details I couldn't care less about, and I still don't care about, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Maybe that was the issue with some classes in school. Because you're just like, why am I?

SPEAKER_00 14:37

I just didn't care. Like I think my perfectionism came from being seen as somebody who was like a highly intellectual person, or somebody who could achieve a lot, or somebody who could tolerate a lot, or someone just who's strong versus like a perfectionist in a in a very different way, if that makes sense. And I think I always thought of perfectionism and type A as the thing I mentioned earlier, with like the little details and like how often you spend doing your hair and makeup and stuff like that. Like those things I never really cared about. But it but it was always in like the strength and the intelligence and the knowledge, like and doing well and being known as not necessarily number one, but someone like who, you know, is successful in anything that they do. Um, and so that that was always with me. But I think I really always valued financial success. And my parents were not like that. My parents are very humble. Um, uh, they're very like, they're not materialistic, they're not, they're not like super money-oriented people. And and it's weird how I became like that because my parents weren't. But I think I always just like it was always important to me to be financially successful, not because of the materialism, but I think like growing up, I don't, I didn't like to hear no. So if someone said no to me, like I would find some other way to get what I wanted. And so I kind of associate like financial health to that. Like, I just want to be able to do exactly what I want to do and not have anyone get in my way. And so I think if you have the financial success, you you have that, right? And so that's kind of where it comes from. Like, I just I can't hear no.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

I love it. That's awesome. And so then when you when you graduated from university, sounds like you did a lot of traveling. What was uh what were the few places that you went?

SPEAKER_00 16:33

Yeah, so I went to a lot of like US states with friends, like Miami, New York. We went to New York a lot. Um, Europe, a lot of different European trips, like summer trips. It was just so much fun, like so much carefree fun.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Okay, well, so in the states, what's your favorite place of the United States? Curious.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

You know what? I would if you asked me this like six months ago, I would have said New York City, but I'm gonna say Miami now.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

It's just because we had such a terrible winter, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:05

That's why probably no, honestly, you know what? Like, because when we would go to Miami, we would stay at South Beach, which was just like dirty and you know, like too much party party. But when you go like in your 30s, you don't stay there, right? You stay in like a better area, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

So you start to like migrate to like brickle or like that's where I was exactly exactly. That's that's where like all the millennials ago. We're just like all right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

And I had not seen it before because I would always be in like the party party areas, yeah. But this time I stayed in Brickle, and it was just like everybody values fitness, health, everyone's like going for a walk, everyone's walking their dogs, like it's just young professionals who just you know, you could like feel the epitome of health everywhere, and uh it really like values like my lifestyle or it aligns with my lifestyle, and so not that New York doesn't, like there's so much greatness about New York, and I love it, and it's so much closer. But I really, really loved Miami this time because I just think I saw it in a different light, and I think it would be an amazing place to live permanently.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yeah, it's cool. I I yeah, between the two, I'm probably still gonna pick New York, yeah. But again, like just this winter has been so nasty on the east coast in the US. Like, I'm just like so over it.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

So, so over it.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Like, I just want to go south, like I, you know, but uh yeah, I went the wrong direction. It was like February. I went to New York. I had a New York trip. And I'm like, why am I why do why have I planned? Like, I'm like, I should be going, you know, kind of like I was thinking, sort of what you were saying with your your founder. I'm like, man, I should just start like targeting customers in like Miami and like Santa Monica and San Diego. Like, just let's just run sales campaigns in those markets so I have like more of a reason to go there, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yes, you should honestly it it just lightens your mood so much, and it's so different. Yeah, we don't see palm trees, we see pine trees, and like it's just the agriculture is like everything's just different, you know? And yeah, just it's just so beautiful. Like you see water everywhere you go, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

No, my mood is definitely improved. Like uh yesterday was super nice out, and today it's gonna be like 70 degrees Fahrenheit here. Um, and it's it just like I'm just happier. It's just like, oh man, this is so nice, like makes such a difference. It really does, yeah. Yeah. Um, do you ever ask your parents? You're like, why did we move to the cold? Why are we all the time?

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Do you see those memes that are like you had the choice between like palm tree beach, but you chose like and it's like a video of Montreal in a snowstorm?

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Yeah, Canada is an absolutely beautiful country for sure, but yeah, it's cool.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

We're lucky to live here.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

The downside of it is is the weather, but otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

So, what about internationally? Where's your favorite place that you've traveled to?

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Definitely Tehran, where I'm from. Um really, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

It's like it's a beautiful, it's a the beautiful, it's like a mountain city, right? Like, I don't think a lot of people realize the mountain backdrop, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:19

You get mountain, you get like metropolitan city. It's huge, it's like as big as New York. The traffic is awful because it's very overpopulated, but it's just like that was one of my favorite trips um every time I go. Like it is just like the best, best time ever. It's like very heartfelt. Yeah, um, I also really love Mexico City. It's a great, great city. I absolutely loved it. Like, cause it's kind of like also like a New York, but it has a lot of like uh European feel and Asian feel as well. So that that's probably one of my second favorite um cities.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Well, yeah, that that's that's really cool. So when's the last time you were to in Tehran?

SPEAKER_00 21:03

10 years ago, maybe 10, 15 years, yeah. Quite a while.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

What's so called culturally what's it like in the in the capital city right there? I'm just curious like what the what the like experience was going there and so it's different.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

It depends like what part of the city you're you're in. Um, because there's like in the in the north of the city, it's like recently, well, not recently, let's say like maybe two or three years ago, up until recent events. Um, it it it's very it's become very lax. So like girls are out in crop tops and not showing any, like they're showing their hair and and everything. Um but then there are some areas in the city where naturally they are really religious, right? And so you might you might see like black from head to toe. Like where my dad's family is from, it is much more conservative, like not by force, but just how people are there. And so, like, if I were to go visit his side of town, like I would just be a little bit more conservative in how I would dress, versus like my mom's side of the family is in a very like modern liberal chill side of like it's more kind of like advanced financially, too. And so they're a lot more liberal and flexed. So I think it just depends on where you are. Um, even within the city, yeah, even within the city. It's kind of like think about it like New York, like Brooklyn's different from like upper East.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

You know, so like no matter where like where you go, like it's like different vibes, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Yeah, yeah. And I've always uh Mexico City sounds like a really cool place, too. I've actually this is just seems like a random gap. I don't know how this has happened, but I've actually never been to Mexico. Um I've done a lot of traveling. I just I don't know how this has happened, but it's

SPEAKER_00 22:46

One of my favorite countries, it has the best food you'll ever eat anywhere from anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Really?

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Best food. I've Barbados and Mexico were the best places for cuisine, in my in my opinion. And I've been to like many different countries.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Wow. Yeah. That's that's that's just gorgeous.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

And it's very advanced, actually. Like it looks like you're in a like US or Canadian city.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

My mom lived there for two years. A while ago. Like uh, she really loved it. Even back then, this was like I don't know how long ago, she wouldn't tell me. Yeah. But uh it was a minute ago, uh, probably when she was in her 20s.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Nice. Yeah, you should go.

When Anxiety Turns Physical

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh huh. Just to kind of pivot a little bit, like one thing that you kind of shared with me as you kind of entered your upper uh 20s, is uh, and this kind of ties into kind of the personal and probably even like professional growth in terms of like how you approach your life and career at this point. But you also you mentioned to me that you you struggle with anxiety a little bit. Um, I think that's like maybe something we could touch on just like for because it's it's I think it's somewhat common, right, for folks to to struggle with these types of things. And um, I'm just kind of curious to learn more about your story and and then maybe like how you've like uh worked on overcoming that or or learning how to to navigate it, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah, for sure. Um it's interesting because I never thought I had anxiety even as a child. I never really had anxious thoughts. I never, at least like from what I knew. Um, one day, it was right when I think I was 29 still, and it COVID hit. And I was sitting at home. This was like maybe three weeks into lockdown, and all of a sudden I started feeling like like uh like I was shaking, my heart was pounding really, really heavy. I was getting really dizzy. I thought I was gonna faint and pass out. And I was getting these like weird, like zappy like electrocution feelings.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Jeez.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

And it was going on for like six, seven hours in the night. And I was like, oh my God, I have COVID. I'm gonna die. Like I thought I had COVID. I didn't, I didn't know what it was because it was like a hundred percent physical. And this was a time where, like, the you know, you're getting all this like news about these things, and so that I thought I had some like physical disease, and I called my doctor the next day because we weren't even allowed to go into the into the doctor's office those days, like everything was fully remote. And he was like, It's anxiety, and I'm and I was like, What? I'm dying, I have cancer and 12 other diseases, including COVID. This is not anxiety, and he was like, You look you I did blood work like just like a routine or whatever, maybe like two or three months before. He's like, I'm looking at your blood, it's a 10 out of 10, it's anxiety. And I'm like, No, it's not. And so this feeling, and and including that, I had like nausea and dizziness and flu-like symptoms every day for two months, and it wreaked havoc on me. I mean, I can't even explain like the the the horrific feeling I had. And I felt like no one's helping me. My doctor keeps saying nothing's wrong with me. And so I'd go online and like every time I would go online, I would see these like COVID-19 uh warning signs and all of this stuff. And it was just like, and I lived alone at the time too. Well, I still live alone, but I was alone and and my parents were like, just come stay with us, like you shouldn't be alone right now, you know. And but I was scared I was gonna that I had COVID and I was gonna give it to them. So like I wouldn't go anywhere, I wouldn't see anyone, and I was going through this completely isolated, like by myself. And every day was a literal walking nightmare. Like I have never felt so sick in my life. And like, you know, when you get the flu, it goes away after four or five days. Like, this was just like two months of constant, like I and I remember I woke up with a severe panic attack, and I thought I was dying from a heart attack. And so I called the ambulance event to come, and they were like, it's anxiety. And I was like, I just had a heart attack. What do you mean it's anxiety? And so, like, it took maybe finally after three months, my doctor agreed to see me. We did full blood. He, he, and my dad, um, my dad's diabetic and he has like thyroid issues and all these things. And my dad and I would go to the doctor together, and the doctor would call him to give results, but he'd never call me because there's nothing to say. And I'd start crying, being like, Why is he calling you? But he's not calling me. And my dad was like, You're seriously the only person I know that's upset that there's nothing wrong with them. And um, I went through this for maybe three or four months, and I was like, Okay, if nobody is gonna help me, I'm just gonna like self-diagnose myself. So I bought uh MCAT pathology book, and I'm like, I'm gonna read every chapter of this book and find out what's wrong with me. And still, like nothing, nothing would come up. I couldn't find an answer.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize if you're like struggling with anxiety or um different issues like that. It's like it's actually, I don't think it's uncommon for people to wish like I just want there to like physically like to for something to be wrong. Because if if it's sometimes like those issues, it could if there's a pill to take, that's easier. Like you sort of you hope that it's like, okay, there's a treatment that I could take for like a week. Yeah, and then when those tests come back negative, like there's actually this feeling of like you're upset because you're you're like, Well, now I like okay, so what now, right? Like, what do I have to and it's something that I don't know, I don't think people necessarily like yeah, so people just haven't experienced that, right? It's like from outside in, it's a little counterintuitive, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

I know, and it sucks. And like uh finally, I I think I came to terms with the fact that it was anxiety because like I couldn't find an answer for it, so yeah, and then that spiraled into actual anxiety because you know, you get it. My mine always started with physical, uh, and I'd get a symptom, and then I would ruminate on it of like, what is this? Like, am I dying? Like, am I gonna have a heart attack? Why am I so dizzy? Why am I so nauseous? And then you know, it's like a cycle because then your mind gets worse. It gets worse, it gets worse, it gets worse.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

It's like it deepens, and it's like it's a it can be it can feel like a trap. I I think so based on where you are today, how of like what do you you learned about navigating that? Like, because now there's been from when it started, at least there's a lot of time, and I don't know how long it was that bad for, but like how have you navigated that?

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Yeah, so the first so this this unfortunately happened to me two times in the last six years, and the first reason I still don't know. I think I think it was a accumulation of everything in my life, and I'm very strong from a mind perspective, and so a lot of it I think just got stored in my body, and then it just unleashed on me physically because I probably just never dealt with a lot of like the trauma that I had from childhood and my whole life in 30 years, right? And then it kind of just like attacks you. Um, I learned a lot from that. Like after that experience, I became such a more empathetic person. I used to never be really empathetic, like I understood human feelings and emotions really well, but I was very of the mindset of like, you know, no negotiations, like like work hard, no excuse, you know, like I wasn't I wasn't very lenient with people. And I think when I went through that, I just became such a different person. I just became so much softer. And if someone tells me they're scared of like doing the laundry, I would be like, that's okay, I understand, you know. Whereas before I'd be like, that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Like I think there's like you know, this is sort of something like my girlfriend and I are actually talking about lately. It's like like sometimes like traumatic stuff is like the stuff that teaches you how to be a better person. Like you kind of like not to say that we need it, but you kind of do, you kind of do, and I'm like trying to like I'm like for people tuning in, I don't want to come across as like the wrong way, or like so somebody would misinterpret it. But it's like it's like you want like the right amount of it, you don't want too much because that's like but you need some, you need like the right, like you know, I am out of trauma and like to like to level out, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Yeah, um it does teach you a lot, right? It teaches you perspective and it changes you as a person. There's no way it doesn't. And and so you know, I did struggle with it still for years, um, with mainly physical, like it became became like more hypochondriac, like I just and all stemmed down from like I just don't like to lose control, it's a control thing. If I'm not in control of my body, then I I don't have control and then I spiral. And so that the the illnesses and like that's kind of like where my anxiety went. And then unfortunately, last year I um I was doing my own business and I was fraction working fractionally for a few companies, and I was working for three at once. And um unfortunately, like I just put so much pressure and stress on myself that those physical symptoms came back. And thankfully, this time it only lasted maybe one or two months. But like, and I would push through, like I'd be in meetings literally on the verge of death. No one, nobody knows it. Like, even if I were to tell anybody that I worked with last year, they would have absolutely no idea because I hide it so well. Um, but I realized like the second time that this happened to me, I put my nervous system in such a crisis. And I kind of did it to myself. And and that lesson was like, I will always respect myself and put myself first and not let anything ever, ever, ever put my nervous system in that situation again. And like, I think that just taught me the ultimate like self-respect that I probably didn't have before, whether it's with relationships or work or whatever the situation may be, like now I come first and everything else is secondary.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

So I have a question, like just and I don't know if you if there's like a really I don't know if anybody really knows this, frankly, but like when did you learn any like tricks or is there like a way if if like anxieties there's like a physical manifestation where it's like hard to break a pattern where it's like showing up and then it's like you're anxious about that, and then it gets worse. Like, did you find any kind of yeah ways to like break the pattern?

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Yeah, there's it's hard to do, like I know what to do. Sometimes I don't do it. Um, but there's two things you can do. One is to sit with it and say, Okay, I know this is happening, I'm not in danger, I'm just uncomfortable. And then your brain kind of switches to like, okay, this is just discomfort, it's not danger. So that's one thing. And and they do say, like, do not focus on the symptom because you just make it worse. If you ruminate on it, and it it makes the symptom worse too. So if you just kind of like try and ignore it, that is also a way to help. Now, with somebody who struggles with anxiety, it's like there's a part of you, and a lot of CEOs also have these traits where they they want to focus on it because if they don't focus on it, it means they lose control of the situation. And then you almost feel guilty of like, oh, if I didn't pay attention to this, this wouldn't have happened to me. And so you almost want to fixate on it because you want to control it as well, if that makes sense. So it's actually really hard to ignore it because even though deep down you probably know it's anxiety, there's like a part of you that's just like, if I don't fixate on this and I actually do have a heart attack, it's gonna be my fault if I die right now.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Then you start to question, like, oh, it's an issue with like you gotta look out for yourself. Sometimes they get it wrong, like that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Exactly. Yeah, and so you but you have to know to just you know, even if you are actually, God forbid, dying, you still can't do anything about it, so you might as well just not think about it.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

That's honestly whatever happens is gonna be probably, yeah. Take the distress, we'll probably let your body heal anyways. Exactly, yeah. Um, well, yeah, thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I think too, it's like being in in tech in like a really fast-paced environment, and it's like super competitive, and it's only getting more competitive, and it's only getting like more challenging and in a way exciting because it's like you know, for high achievers, like it's it can be fun, but it's also like it's a lot, right? And I think it's just you know, and then just everything that comes with like getting a little bit older and different responsibilities and stressors that come throughout life, right? Yeah, um, so thank you. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Yeah, I think it you know, I think a lot of people go through this, maybe not in in the same ways, and everyone's triggers are different, but the end result is the same, and I think it's like everybody just really needs to put themselves first and you know, not let external things um like change their minds about themselves.

Hypergrowth Hiring Quality Process AI

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Yeah. Agreed. Fast forwarding to today, head of talent, new.io, 2026. Sounds like your team is growing pretty aggressively. Um, just like quick overview like what stage are you if you are investment backed and headcount and headcount growth goals, like what just kind of lay the land on where you're at?

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Yeah, so we uh raised series A last year, and we're probably now. I mean, this number changes every day. I think around 140 people globally. Um, and we have something like 65 open requisitions globally as well. So we have um, in addition to North America, two other offices, one in Bogota, and we're all gonna open one in India as well. So there's a lot of hypergrowth in pretty much every area of the business right now.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Wow. So that's a fair amount of volume, right? And one of the things we talked about before we actually hit record was like balancing that volume and the speed with quality. It sounds like that's sort of where your head's at. Like, how do you think about tackling that this year?

SPEAKER_00 37:00

Yeah. I think you have to put recruiters in place who really understand quality from a business perspective, from a technical perspective, from a soft skills perspective, but who can also maintain the speed of which they move and really know how to target those people as well. Um, but I think, you know, it I have unfortunately, well, maybe not unfortunately, but my whole team is a team of seniors. I'd love to bring in juniors, you know, at some point, but I think um you do need to start off with senior level folks who really kind of understand the industry really well and the profiles really well to build that foundation. And so, you know, um, the volume is one problem, but volume without quality is is almost useless, in my opinion. And even though we have, you know, targets, it's it's more important that these hires can make an impact in the business.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah, it's definitely challenging like to move really fast and keep the bar really high. Yeah. When you think about implementing that this year, I mean like I do agree. I think senior recruiters, particularly for this stage of scale-ups, is like it's critical because you need people to who really understand the business and ideally have like a level of business and strategic acumen as well, uh, to see like force through the trees or like really understand top line kind of business objectives and how that feeds into a talent strategy. I I agree. Um like so for one of my companies that's an embedded recruiting and RPO firm for the tech industry, and we only hire senior recruiters to go to customer accounts, and like the the vast majority of my final round interview is really much more so focused around behavior and uh business and strategic acumen. So we like we require they need to have startup scale-up experience, they need to have that. But really, it's like, okay, like how how aware are you of like your own behaviors and like the business needs? And so my questions are I also intentionally ask questions that I know they haven't heard before.

unknown 38:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

So it's like, but because I I want them to think, not just interview well, right? Um but yeah, I mean it's it's I think that like those are the things that really make a great recruiter. It's like they have to have the experience, but they have to be the right behavioral fit.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Exactly. They I think you need to understand the business, you need to understand that hiring managers org to the point where, like, well, I'll give you one example. We um we, I mean, we're a tech company, so obviously there was, you know, one you know, weeks of where you might have more escalations than others. And um, when you hear that in the business, it it kind of makes me think like, okay, then you know, we when we run into these situations, we need to make sure that, you know, our support hires and our TAM hires are, you know, really advanced in being able to solve these types of problems. And so, like when I'm hiring myself, I think about it from even the customer's point of view. Um, and so I think, you know, the recruiter doesn't need to go that far, but I think you do need to understand the leaders' org and their business and the challenges that they deal with on a day-to-day to be able to find people to help solve for that. And and I really think a recruiter is like an advisor and a business partner. They're not just throwing paper at you, but they're really helping you try to solve the immediate problems that your org is facing.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. So, what else? So, so like in terms of quality recruiters, business strategic acumen, uh, you know, somebody that knows their stuff, but also can execute with a certain level of speed, um, which also I think touches on like the behavioral piece in terms of like how they think about speed and like being proactive. And um, because I know you said like being proactive is another big thing, right? Like being an advisor, being proactive. So we we have those elements when you think about like process or technology, are there any like big areas for like high impact areas that talent leaders should be thinking about in 2026?

SPEAKER_00 40:50

I think your internal process is the probably one of the most, if not most important thing when it comes to high growth recruiting. Because I always say, like, you have two problems in recruiting. You have internal problems and you have external problems. Yeah, you're always gonna have external problems, right? You're always gonna have to like find talent, you're always gonna have to know where to source from, you're always gonna have situations where people, you know, don't accept your offer. These things are, you know, you can you can only do so much there. What you can control is what happens internally. And I think you need to have a well-oiled machine from a process perspective. Like one example could be not have, you know, 10 different interview stages. If you're gonna have 10, like what's the point of them and what are they each gonna actually tackle? And like, what's the alignment? And like, you know, just really making sure your internal processes are efficient from feedback to scorecard to interviews to who's gonna manage what and tackle what. Um, like one example is for engineering, we set up sprints. So Monday, Wednesday, Friday, we have 15-minute sprint catch-up, like this is the pipeline, this is what we need to do, this is what I need from you, this is what you need from me. And just like there's not a lot of dialogue, I think, with recruiting and leader sometimes. So that's one important thing. And then from a system perspective, like we use Gem, which is our ATS, it's it's great. Um, the data part of it and the reporting is like top tier. I've never used such a good like data reporting tool before. That's awesome. Um, but we like also like new is very high on AI in the sense of like everyone needs to use AI for literally everything and automate all the things. Like, do not be doing things manually for the sake of it. You should you should always find ways to automate. So, you know, using GPT and like other tools to to just like make everyone more efficient and not work on things manually if you don't have to, like even job descriptions. I think all of our job descriptions are via courtesy of Mr. GPT.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Um, well, yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, that's yeah, that's really that's really interesting. I mean, what are your thoughts too on like for um like screening interviews? Are you like leveraging AI for that for like inbounds? That's not the place.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

This is one area where you can never convince me to replace it with an AI because I think this is the most important value you're ever gonna get from a recruiting team, is the screening part. I truly believe that. I mean, I I know some people may not, but I I just don't think there's a point in having a recruiter if you're just gonna replace that with AI. I think there's a lot of AI to be used in the recruiting process, like from your ad there's so much admin that we do, like from scheduling to like even communicating and all of that can be done with AI, but I think the screening part is something that I would um never ever ever replace.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

You um what about like tools like um that are kind of like AI co-pilots? Do you to screen the CVs or no to be part of like Zoom interviews, like and kind of take notes and then update the ATS?

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Or you do we use all of that, yeah. So we we we even record our interviews now because you've probably heard of all the like fraudulent things happening industry. So now we record interviews and then like so we use we use fellow for that, we use Note Taker as well. Um, so we yeah, even intake meetings, we use note taker and then like we'll send out the note taker to so that we're aligned.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Yeah, it's just such an easy thing to do that makes such a big difference.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Yeah, particularly when you speak with so many people. I wish like someone would come up with an AI scheduling tool where like the recruiter just didn't have to do anything, like you press one button and the scheduler just talks to the hiring manager or something like that. Yeah, that would be great. Um yeah.

Core Values Peace And Social Support

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Yeah, for sure. I want to talk a little bit about the the future as well. Um, and get a sense for From a TA perspective, word like professionally, I mean in general, like how do you see yourself progressing? Like what's like your big obsession or focus over the next several years?

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Yeah. I really want to get talent acquisition to like a really, really, really good place where it's a well-oiled machine and you know, we're just kind of we know what to do and there's no problems and an ideal scenario. And then I'd love to take on like other departments at some point in my life. I mean, in the far future, like I would love to lead like a BDR team or something because I just think it's like very similar to recruiting. Or I'd love to go somewhere in the organization where they're facing like a lot of problems and look at things from a process perspective. I'm very good at processes, like I can take a look at something and break it and build it back up. I mean, I've only been at new for four months, and that's really what I spent a lot of time doing was, you know, meeting with all the executives and building out processes. So that's also something like I would love to do at some point as well, um, is going, you know, outside of talent acquisition to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

Yeah, for sure. That's uh well, it sounds like you're like just very interested in like problem solving in general, like looking at anything that's like not effective or efficient and like fixing it and making it better.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

Yes. Um I love that.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

That's awesome. Because like one thing that you mentioned to me though is like you you seem very clear on like you're living life by your core values. And you mentioned like four to you that you're really going to be focused on in your future. Could you kind of uh and I wrote them down here? Um and and so I I have them here, but I was hoping you could tell us more about them. I mean, like the one of the first ones you mentioned is like financial health. Um there's a few others, but could you just walk us through like these core values and and why like they stand out to you as the most important things as you think about your future?

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Yeah, I think we also talked before, like I truly believe that if you want to be not happy, because happy is an emotion that comes and goes, but like content with your life, your behaviors do have to fall aligned with your values. And I think oftentimes when people are really unhappy, it's because what they're doing is not aligned to their values. And so I go by four that, you know, I have categories for each of the four, but financial health is one that you mentioned, physical health is super important to me, spiritual health is very important, like you know, relationships and uh learning and self-growth, um, meditation and just, you know, being like with your inner peace is very important. And then obviously the fourth is mental health. Um, and a lot of mental health falls into spiritual health, but I think mental health is really just like managing your day-to-day stress, um, and just you know, striving for peace always and and trying to do things throughout your day that you know can can give you happiness essentially.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Yeah, you and one of the things you told me before we recorded was like that peace is the most important thing above everything else. So maybe you could tell us more about what you mean by that.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Yeah, I think being at peace means you are happy with yourself and you are not portraying something to the world that is not how you feel inherently. And that's like being really honest with yourself and and you know, you're being at peace from that perspective. And I think it's also like how you show up with other people, you're not people pleasing constantly 24 hours a day. You're you know, you're putting yourself first. And so I think you know, that's one thing. But I also believe it's like you're you're incorporating fun into your life, you know, your life is not just about like responsibility all the time because that's not gonna bring you peace, you know? Um, and and so I think you need to be at peace with yourself, but also with your life. And you have to, you know, we always always do things we don't want to do, but you have to then like if you're gonna do something you don't want to do, you have to then give yourself something nice that you want to do and and like learn how to balance it. And like I think it's all about balance. Like, you can't be one extreme one way and one extreme the other because you're just not gonna be at peace. And so I really think like you need to again be happy with yourself, be happy with the life you've built. And if you're not, you know, come up with ways of like how can you make the changes so that you have that peace. Because when you don't have peace, you I mean, I I think the opposite of peace is stress. And when you don't have stress, like it comes with disease, it comes with bad sleep, it comes with just being miserable all the time. Yeah, but I think if you have peace, you you have like you're rich, like you have everything at that point.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

I agree. I agree, that's awesome. Yeah, I mean, it it's also like you talk a lot about like one thing you didn't touch on yet, was like relationships too. Um, and I think you called it like a social system or a social circle, or but how do you think about that and like that impact, like in terms of how that impacts your health and well-being, and and why is that so important to you as well?

SPEAKER_00 49:42

Yeah, I have, I mean, my girlfriends that I'm the that I'm friends with, I've been friends with since I was 10 years old. So um we're like I have really, really good social system and and friendship and family. My mom and dad are like we're best friends. We talk all the time, we talk about everything. I spend like once a week with them at least. And so I have a lot of really, really good people around me. Um, and I think that, you know, when I mentioned like fun, like that's you know, that's where my fun comes when I get to spend time with the people that I love and care about. And you know, that's super important.

Closing Thanks And Final Thoughts

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Yeah, yeah, I I totally agree. Well, Rona, look, this has been a really insightful conversation. I've had a lot of fun speaking with you today. Um, I just want to say thank you for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Thank you. Yeah.

unknown 50:33

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Thanks for everybody tuning in. Thanks for joining us, and we'll talk to you next time.