EP 205: Neat CVs Don’t Equal Potential, Look Beyond the Resume

Growing up as the oldest of five, Tristan Mackrory was a teacher long before the classroom, a dynamic that still shapes how he leads today. That path took him from teaching into talent acquisition, and now into his role as VP of People & Talent at Almedia, where he’s helped scale teams through hypergrowth. In this conversation, he shares what breaks first at 100+ employees, what to build early to avoid it, and why unconventional talent often outperforms the expected path.

Connect with host James Mackey on LinkedIn!

Thank you to our sponsor, SecureVision, for making this show possible! 

 
Follow us:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/82436841/

SecureVision: #1 Rated Embedded Recruitment Firm on G2!
https://www.g2.com/products/securevision/reviews

Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Welcome And Weather Small Talk

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Really excited for today's episode. We have Tristan with us. He's currently the VP of People and Talent over at All Media. So uh welcome to the show, Tristan.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Hi, James. Thank you so much for having me on. Um I didn't ask already. Uh, what time is it over there?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Oh, it's uh so in the DC area. I'm in Northern Virginia. It's 1030 a.m. Nice cool. Okay. Well, I haven't got you up too early. Uh in your um are you currently in Berlin?

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Yeah, it's our first sunny day in the last like 14 days, I think. Um, and it's about 3.30 over here.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

3 30, first sunny days. You know, it's um I don't know how it's been in Europe, but the winter here in like the east coast of the US has been awful. Yeah, it's been insane, man. Like, I I I know you said you're thinking about maybe you you you and your team might be going to New York in a month or two. But it's uh, I mean, I like in February I was traveling to New York and I had to reschedule the trip one time because there was like a blizzard coming in or something. And and so I rescheduled for two weeks later, and then I got stuck in a blizzard when I was in New York two weeks later.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

It was like you tried to avoid it and it followed.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

No, it just like it just followed me and then my plane was canceled, I couldn't leave, which I guess there's like worse places to be stuck than New York City, so it's you know, like it was fine. I it wasn't, it was it was uh it was still it was still nice, it's still New York, but uh yeah, it's um wow, first sunny day in two weeks. That's uh you should be outside. What are you doing with me?

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Oh, I can miss this, but uh yeah, I will reach out to you first before we organize our travel. So just to double check if it's sunny over there, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Childhood Shaping Leadership Instincts

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Well, you definitely do, because I'll I'll come up and uh we can we can grab lunch then or something like that. That'd be awesome. Um well, cool. Everybody wants to learn more about you. Where are you from?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Uh so I was born just outside London, um, in a place called Buckinghamshire, um, in in the UK.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Okay, nice. Nice. Now you were the the oldest, uh, so you have uh one of five, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Yeah, yeah. And it's yeah, it was a pretty wild um, I guess, childhood. So my parents had me pretty young, um, uh as it goes. I think uh my mum was 18 and my dad was 16. Um and they yeah, a certain journey. And I uh they they went off into university or college over there uh together um when I was like three. So I went through that whole kind of environment at a very, very early age of between the ages of like three and six, when they were just passing me around their friends while they went to lectures and whatnot. Um it certainly had an effect on kind of what I do and how I interact today, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

So you you went to university at a pretty young age. That's yeah, yeah. Uh Einstein there. That was uh ahead of your time. So that's that's awesome. Yeah. So so you and you said your youngest um sibling is like it's like you said like 21 years younger than you, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yeah. So I was I I I started early on my career as like teaching. Um, and I I just remember being in the classroom and my mom messaging me and just saying, Hey, I'm pregnant again. And I was like, What? How? Um Yeah, there is there's a big age gap with that one, and there's a more minor age gap with the with the others.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Um you had said that you're um so before you got into the world of talent acquisition, you were a teacher. But I guess you were probably a teacher a lot like you know, way before you actually were a teacher in a school, just because you grew up with so many siblings and you were the oldest. So I'm sure you sort of like assumed that role throughout like growing up as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

It's it's a funny way of looking at it, but I really do feel like everything that I do now and have done has had so it's been such a direct impact on my childhood and and and and and and getting to us, right? Like as a as like, you know, when I was around 16, I had three young siblings, and I was by far the oldest, and I was just kind of babysitting or met uh more about uh kind of uh making sure that they don't fight too much and uh and and and the classic things. But yeah, it all it all kind of plays out and it still plays out these relationships. It doesn't matter how much and how much we kind of improve and self-improve. I think when you go back, like for the US to Thanksgiving and stuff, and you see your family around the table, I genuinely believe everyone kind of reverts to these kind of almost like childhood, childlike uh childhood, child table uh kind of uh personalities. It's true. Yeah, I don't know how much I like that, but I'm just calling it out.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

I'm like, I've grown a lot since then, you know, like yeah, but it's true though. I think you do like when you're like kind of back around family or back around like folks that even like friends, right? Like I I don't know, I live in an area like DC area where like a lot of families they move here for work, right? Like a lot of people aren't from the DC area, like they're transplants like come here and then they leave, right? And so I was I was like born and raised here and I have family here, so I always moved back. Like I traveled a lot, I moved back. But a lot of my friends they went to school and then they they moved and they didn't move back. But it's funny, whenever I do get to see them, it's like we're 15 again, you know, it's it's it's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

It's really, really bizarre. And it like, don't get me wrong, it's not like you know, going around the family table and everyone's like jostling and like throwing peas at each other and whatnot, not when that was my childhood. Well, it's like it's just those kind of those kind of minor annoyances which would never annoy you in a normal day-to-day. But if somebody uh sibling that you've got this really close bond with, it's just you're like, Whoa, why am why am I so angry right now or unhappy or whatever? Yeah, it's fun, it's nice.

First Jobs And Learning To Teach

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's it's fun, yeah, exactly. It can't be, it can't be for sure. And so how did you get into you? Also, you had a kind of an interesting path in terms of how you got into teaching. Yeah. How did that how did you initially do that?

Thrown Into The Classroom Fast

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah, uh like I'll go over I think I think the easiest way to kind of run over that is to kind of go over my career from like day one, right? Like I was always really, really motivated. Um my parents, you know, going off to university when I was a kid and then going straight into these like really kind of relatively like high performing jobs where they're doing like 60 hours a week, um, and and really making a good career for both of them. Um I that definitely had an impact on me. And so when I was 14, I got my first job. Um, and I uh I I started swim coaching or swim teaching. Oh, nice. Um so firstly I was doing that with like large classes, classic kind of swim teaching, right? You know, uh when most people go and learn, where you've got like 15 kids and one teacher in a float and someone's saying kick, kick, kick. Um, and I had the energy for that for sure. Um, and then through like a referral, um um somebody kind of introduced me to this really specialist swim coach where it's one-on-one teaching with a very, very different method. So you've got like a mirror-bottomed pool, you've got cameras set up, and you're looking at the exact technique. And so I went from I I was doing them both in parallel at points, um, but the the one-on-one method was super expensive, really luxurious kind of style. Um, and and um I did that for many years until I was like 18, 19, uh, before I started working uh at Apple, Apple retail. Saying I'm a genius doesn't hit quite the same anymore um as it did in my teens. Um and that was you know a great kind of uh it was it was a really great opportunity to really be able to meet people from all walks of life and also uh satisfy my really tech nerd curiosity and being able to repair things and and educate. Um I remember you know my two years working there, where I think one of the most kind of enjoyable elements of my work was they used to have these kind of Britney Spears like headphone things if you're doing a talk or a speech, and I would go and do them each week where I'm taking everyone around and going, This is the introduction to the iPhone, this is what you can do with it. Um, it was it was great fun. People uh I I really enjoyed it, and I think I definitely kind of got bit by the bug of that of kind of seeing people uh get inspired and people learn. Um, and there was this opportunity at a school in the UK where you can kind of go into teaching as an apprentice, and so you kind of learn to teach on the job, and there's this whole kind of qualification that goes alongside it, um, without a degree. Now I have my own thoughts whether that's a positive or a negative thing. I think schools kind of use it as a way to kind of save on budget and ask for a full teacher, uh, but pay a little bit less than than a fully qualified one. But you know, I'm 20, I'm 21 at this point, and I'm thinking, wow, what an opportunity. Um, I can take what I'm doing at Apple uh retail, which it would only take me so far, um, and then go into the classroom. Now, what I wasn't expecting going into this was like day one, day one, first day of work, was going, this is your class. And I was like, oh, cool, yeah. And who's the like co-teacher I'm teaching with? Oh no, you're you are that teacher, which this is like public school, like yeah, yeah, this public school. How many how many students did you have in that first class? Uh like 15. 15? Yeah, what yeah, one five. Yeah, 15. I had a uh I had like a teaching assistant, which again is insane to me, bearing in mind that that's kind of what I was thinking I'd be doing and learning from. Right. Um come in three days a week.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

So how much training did you have before you were given a class?

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Honestly, James? Uh well, I'd say my whole childhood working with my siblings.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Okay, all right. That's like I mean, like my like like by by the government or whatever, like how we want.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So we had like a monthly uh we had like a uh once I started, you'd have a monthly evening session, but like day one, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

No, but there wasn't like a like a boot camp or something ahead of time, no?

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Yeah, no, what no, it's it's honestly insane, and uh without getting into too much politics, probably the state of the like the problems with the schooling in the UK at the time. Um, but it certainly wasn't a solution.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

So so like wait, but like I'm this is this is fascinating to me because I'm just like trying to figure out that must have felt like a lot of pressure going because you're just like yeah, look looking back at it and kind of thinking about it, I think it's completely crazy, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:11

But at the time it was just like, oh yeah, this is this is path of the course, this is this is how it is.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yeah. Um so you're a lot younger, right? Like you don't really your perspective on things are different, and then like as you get a little older, you're like looking back, you're like, wait a second.

Leaving Teaching For Recruiting

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Exactly. So I did that, like, you know, I'm 21 going into that, and I did that for two years, and it was I I loved it. And I I I'll always say that like if you if you're really passionate about uh teaching and education and stuff, yes, you should do it. But I also feel for for the people that and I I I've had a few friends who've had this who've gone and studied for four years, gone into it, and then gone, oh no, I hate this. Now I need to completely pivot. Uh, I was fortunate that I wasn't in that position. I was in my, yeah, I was doing my second year of teaching now, I'd gone in for the the next school year, and I just remember going into a teacher's staff room, and there was this teacher that was, you know, about to retire, they're in their late 50s, and I I was always like this bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, kind of always hype and energy. And he was just like looking at me, kind of going, don't do it. It's not what it was uh uh when I started, it's only gonna get worse. Um super, super negative. And it wasn't, it wasn't just that, but like it certainly was like the fine up the straw that broke that kind of camel's back where I was like, okay, I need to listen to this person who's been doing this for like 35 years, who looked a little bit broken at that point from from everything that had been thrown thrown at them. And it was within like six months of uh of of that interaction that I'd been I you know I started my career in recruiting and I'd messaged um I messaged this like International Recruitment Agency. I know uh many many of the listeners have probably heard of it as well, S3. Um I think it's got a little bit smaller in the last couple of years, but I do it's I know it's pretty notorious, at least over uh in Europe, being quite a hard grind. Just saying, look, I'm teaching right now. I know this is a bit more of an obscure kind of path into it, um, but you know, are there any opportunities? Uh and I went in and and kind of set up a uh tech uh permanent technical desk uh and started leading a team uh within a couple of months.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Oh, that's that's exciting. So you're already leading with it uh almost immediately. Yeah, yeah. Well, so then I guess it's that's good that you're probably feeling like, oh, this is maybe a career path I should pursue. It sounded like you had some aptitude for it, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:50

100%. Like I like any person in their very early 20s, or like many in their very early 20s, I certainly had a yeah, I can do this 100%. Okay, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah, yeah, you need some of that when you're starting out because you don't we don't have the skills, so you need something to compensate, right? Right. You have to be able to believe it yourself. Yeah, I'll figure it out. Yeah, that's that's great, that's really cool. And so and now you're like you've you've held um you know uh several different uh leadership roles. Before we hit record, you were telling me uh about I would love to start with Rapid, right? So not like now you're at all media, but uh going back to Rapid because it sounds like that company was going through some insane scale. Uh I would love to just hear that story, just like kind of start to finish, like what you know, what that was all about.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Rapid was it was honestly the best of times and the worst of times, for in in in in equal measure, right? Like it was it was such a funny opportunity that came up. Um, and let me explain that. Like, so I'm living in the Highlands of Scotland, working remotely, I have my own little kind of consultancy to where I'm partnering up with you know Preceed and and kind of maybe series A businesses in Berlin, London, and Paris. So I'm I'm working with these companies that have like 15, 20 people in max, um wanting to uh wanting to hire and wanting to understand what they need to hire. Um and then I got reached out by this recruiter in San Francisco, and he was like, Oh, let's have a chat. We're wanting to do some expansion in Europe. And I'm thinking, great, cool. So this is a big client from a consultancy, fantastic, let's go. And then, like, I had a conversation with a recruiter, realized it definitely wasn't uh just a they wanted to hire somebody here. Um, and I was really unsure about it. I said, no, no, no, let me let me set up a meeting with the engineering director who's leading out Europe and stuff. Um, you guys can have a chat and then go from there. And I had this conversation, and this this incredible person over in um over over in San Francisco was just so incredibly passionate and so driven, was like, yeah, we're gonna scale this out here. Um, I can see that you've you know you've consulted and you've helped these before. And I was just honestly, it was infectious. And it was within like a couple of minutes of that meeting, I was like, okay, cool, I want to come build for you. Let's let's go. And so I I joined, I joined the business to head up the talent for Europe as they scaled out as a remote employee based in the Highlands. About six weeks into my role there, I was over in San Francisco. Uh, and the founder, uh, he's 24 founder and CEO, um, incredible, incredible person. He was like, Do you want to move to Berlin and set up the office? And like, how can you say no to something like that when that when that kind of opportunity comes up? So, like, I think three months into my time there, I'd relocated to Berlin, I'd set up the entity, found an office space, um, and just scaled it. And it was just this kind of like building mentality, just scaling and growing. So, I uh high level. I joined the business there when there were 90 employees when I started. Um, I left at around 250 employees. Um it was a hyper growth over two years. Um, we had our main our main investor was Andre St. Horics. And so I learned an awful lot from that as well. Um, some incredible kind of hyper growth kind of strategies and and how to scale. Um, I also learned what the negatives of VCs as well. Watching the business and the leaders uh every you know every quarter have to pivot because we're still not making positive revenue. Um, and I think you know, one of the funny memories from that time, uh yeah, one of one of the funniest memories for me, we sponsored an F1 racing team when we were still we weren't actually cash flow positive. So we sponsored this F1 racing team. It was incredible. Like, don't get me wrong, like super hype. We fly out the team and the car to our AKO in Morocco along with the whole company. So we've got 250 people from the US, uh, from Israel, from Germany, all coming over to Morocco along with this team. And I'm just thinking, how? Like, like how is this working? I'm just I I looking back, I think the VCs are probably thinking that too, um, a little bit. Um, unfortunately, that kind of winded down uh why wind down a couple of months after that. Um, you know, you know how it all changed back in 2022. And I was I was really uh obviously I was I was kind of uh really saddened by this, something that we built with incredible people all in one room, um really fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Was it just that like revenue wasn't like the revenue growth wasn't where it it needed to to be? It was yeah, and say it's like a huge valuation, right? Like, I mean, didn't you guys they did by soft bank? But right didn't you like what didn't the company end up getting like a billion dollar valuation or something, like at a series D raise?

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah, series D soft soft bank. Um it it it it it really was. I think unfortunately we just didn't some of the product uh some of the launches sorry, some of the launches didn't go uh as as we'd hoped.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah, yeah.

Joining A Bootstrapped Berlin Startup

SPEAKER_00 20:38

And so you know, at the end, you know, it went from 250 to like 35 people uh in in a couple in a matter of weeks. Um real shame, but honestly, that was the bug that really bit me about working, like building a super high performing team where everyone is it's not about just working more hours, it's about wanting to work alongside other people and learn from them and and and drive this real kind of high performance culture. Um and so when that ended, I was fortunate to have you know six months uh to really look for what I wanted to do next. And I spoke, I'll I'll tell you, James, I spoke to so many AI companies. Uh this this is you know a couple of years ago now. And my first question to one of them, bear in mind I'm coming off this kind of you know, doing 70, 80 hour weeks uh and and it kind of imploding. My first question to all of these kind of uh hiring managers and and and CEOs was what's the runway? They're like, Well, why is this person so what's the runway on this? What's what's what's the exit plan? And with many of these AI companies, they can give me a satisfactory answer. You know, we'll grow to this, we'll get another series, you know. It was it was a little more devious. Then I got probably one of the worst recruiting messages that I've ever received um to this day. Um well, yeah, tell us what it is. Yeah, yeah. So I got a message which uh it's on my LinkedIn store, and it literally just says, Do you want to make free cash come and work here? Now, like any sane person, yeah, I don't know, I know like any sane person. I was like, this is a scam, right? What what right? Like there is there wasn't really much brand visibility for free cash at that point. There were like 20 people, there was no mention of free cash really online. Um, they had they had a website but no app. Um and there was nothing about the founder or anything and I'd I'd I'd been trying to do some research on that. Um really fortunate for me of course I didn't reply to that message right I do think it's a funny intro to how I'm here. I then got a message like a month a month after from an external recruitment agency going there's this bootstrapped company in Berlin. They're like 30 people now they're looking for this you know senior people person to come in and set things up to scale and I'm thinking you know bootstrapped and they want to like go into this hyper growth the the only way that you can do it being bootstrapped is you're in this positive revenue, right? Like you're doing well and you're being able to self-fund it. And so I come in I meet the founder and CEO um Ritz. He was 21 at the time which I didn't know. And so I come in and I'm just like like this is insane. I love the passion that you have for what you're doing.

Building Career Frameworks Early

SPEAKER_01 23:44

You've set this up you set this up as a teenager while he was playing games uh I was like I can make um so you know a successful business out of this but if if I you know if I do join here and I said this like from day one we need to go for a big rebranding and make our media as the kind of like main employer uh brand for the business um and so I I I came into the business and spent a significant you know portion of my first month going through this extensive rebranding with a design agency uh which is what you see today uh throughout our throughout our business that people can really rally behind and it looks like the unicorn that we are yeah that's that's awesome and so you've um you know I know like one of the things that you you talked a little about with with me before we hit record was just uh your approach to being in a leadership uh talent leadership role at all media versus uh initially at rapid and you talked about like uh you you called it like overbuilding uh to an extent at first but like maybe maybe not right because it's like you you you the first time around you noticed all these headaches that kind of came in at the when you had scaled to like 100 150 and so you really tried to get ahead of those this time around with rapid scaling um and so like for leaders tuning in this could actually be really helpful is like when you when you know okay you walk into an environment like okay we're gonna be growing quickly what are the things that you do when you first walk into the environment to make sure you don't hit roadblocks at a hundred people plus yeah one 100% I'll I'll I'll run over that I like the the the headline I want here though is like don't build process for the sake of process.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

I hate that like I need to be that's not what you're talking about is super super fluid super super agitable but have some kind of framework in the background that you can refer to in the future as to why you made these decisions. So one of the pain points for me um coming into you know my last business when we're at 90 and we're we're we're we're scaling out was oh we need to create a leveling system ah then we've got these salary kind of bands that we need to do and then we need to kind of align everyone to that painful painful process a really really painful process trying to go back in past to re-level people and work work work on that. And so coming fresh off that coming into the business here I built these out at 30 employees here which is kind of funny um to have these kind of career progression frameworks to have these kind of leveling clear salary bands um right early days and I I remember like we've we've still got the the spreadsheet there's like 450 different job positions that we could have we didn't have these job positions but it was just being able to go this is why we made this decision. This is why you're this salary um in case it comes up in the future makes it much I was trying to just relieve on these pain points in the future. The other thing I built out um early days in our media and now the team have really you know iterated on it and made it such a better tool than I ever could have was a mock maker or a mission outcome competency maker. And this comes kind of directly from uh Andreasen Horitz hiring uh handbook where every role should have a mission every role should have outcomes every role should have competencies super super simple makes hiring a lot easier on both sides you've got clear expectations and so in my last business we asked hiring managers to fill these out naturally if a hiring manager is hiring like 30 different roles at once whilst also working 60 70 hours trying to get them to sit down in front of a computer and fill out these out is nigh impossible. And so what I wanted to do coming into this business is to make something really scalable from day one which partners up hiring managers with TA. And so we used Lovable to create a tool where any hiring manager can go on, type in a job title, select for level maybe that's a you know a mid-level person, senior, is it a lead is a director type in you know one of the two one or two projects you want this person to do. And then the LLM which has already been prompted by us knowing our culture, our values understanding kind of who we are as a business then refers to okay so you're looking for I don't know a finance manager and they need to do these invoices and then is able to build all around that from what a normal finance manager is. Because working at a you know a hypergrowth company where you've got these managers where for many of them it's their first time being a manager they don't know they know they need someone but they don't know what they need them to do. And so that's that prompt to really be able to help them go okay I can I can delegate these kind of responsibilities and they can they can work on that. And it also means that when you're going into that kickoff call as a talent acquisition partner the hire uh the hiring manager already has an understanding of the role you're saving so much time in discovery. Um yeah I I think I think it was it was a huge unblocker for us. I do we did learn something along the way we also created a salary band kind of tool which every role has a salary band as I discussed uh for every level of role and we actually integrated that into this so hiring managers could self-serve so say again that finance manager comes up uh and they go oh it's this level then it would show the salary uh for for for that role to the hiring manager we had to remove that feature because we realized pretty early on that it was creating false expectations a hiring manager would come in and go okay we're looking for this finance manager at this salary and it's like whoa whoa whoa whoa you said that you want them at this level but actually you need them to do X, Y, and and and and Z. Um so there's so much more on top of this and then trying to reset that expectation when they have this in their head already is really tough. So we remove that and put that kind of human back in the loop.

Hiring Lessons Beyond The Resume

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Yeah for sure it's like that not doing too much as you put it like self-service right like making sure that you're you're able to stay in the loop for sure.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

So so like just to zoom out right like now that you've been in talent leadership roles for a while uh what would you say are your like top takeaways lessons learned or you know when you're sharing with other leaders who are tuning in like yeah top lessons learned let's start there I've got quite a few um I think I used to overindex on passion um and I would I would hire people who were super super super passionate early on in my kind of leadership career. It's like wow you are so passionate about this. But I've learned I learned pretty hard where I gave people a lot of rope and and maybe less structure thinking that you know that passion would be able to drive through it. But now I my learning from this is I still index on on passion but it needs to be in collaboration with curiosity too. So you're not only you you you're actually able to explore and develop one is a signal the other is a little bit more of evidence. The other one and this is probably survivor bias for sure and I'm fully aware of that is you know I think we need to stop over indexing on CVs as a whole. I think some of the most fantastic hires I've had um on my team have had a very unconventional way to get to where they are um and I think that goes some way to show the for what you know what they bring to the table may may be slightly different. So for myself you know I come with no degree I started as a swim coach ended up working at Apple then moving into kind of agency recruitment for a couple of years before going into startups um and now work as kind of a time acquisition and people leader. I think one of our best um kind of unconventional profiles started working in people and then went I don't see the longevity in this role I'm gonna go and study data science for a couple of years. A really really unique profile which didn't have a kind of clear linear um I think we gave a a a kind of a a chance on on this profile which not everyone would um and it's been insane the effect that's had so I think neat CV doesn't automatically equal real potential yeah I well I I totally agree your hiring managers it's it's a learning point it yeah we're we're on a learning journey together I I mean I've had this conversation for a couple of years and I usually win this kind of a debate you know my last two CEOs and and many of the C level actually didn't have degrees or college degrees or whatever as well. Yeah and they kind of go yeah I want someone who's come out to Stanford or Harvard and I'm like dude you don't like like what are you what do you think you know and and and it's it's the reframing and I totally understand what they're coming where they're coming from I I agree it's a super high bar and that's a really good signal but that's not the only signal we should be looking for. It's an index of what they built and it might not be going through a normal path.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Yeah 100% yeah I I also think that there's like value in that type of diversity like maybe you do want a couple of the Stanford grads maybe you do want a couple the uh less conventional paths maybe a couple dropouts maybe people that you know are career shifting uh you want some people that are more experienced and older you want some people that are younger and like you know I think like having that's something that I've learned over the years like it was actually probably a more recent realization like I see a lot more value in having a diversity in like the the also seniority like because that so for one of my companies is the Secure Vision and it's um I'm better recruiting an RPO firm in the tech space and I've I've been I started the company about like a decade ago and we really had potentially overindexed on people with like a ton of experience um and in in like in some ways like really good ways like all of our recruiters that we assign to customers are senior level like we don't actually put junior people on custom like with customers because like we need people that have like a lot of startup growth stage experience that like know how to recruit in hypergrowth environments right like that so that expertise is important but there are certain positions in which like junior talent can be really like great and we we really again like I think we overindex on like seniority and experience like traditional um and we I just opened an office in Reston Virginia outside of the DC market DC market area to to for a go to market team because we're really actually starting to go outbound to scale more aggressively and I hired junior staff a handful of folks uh 22 23 years old and I've been like so incredibly impressed uh with the the the creativity the energy uh how they approach like problem solving and actually like solving strategic problems that I wasn't really expecting uh and I'm realizing like oh wow it's like it's so important to have different folks at different stages in their career from different backgrounds on the team it just because you're gonna approach problems from ways that and solutions from ways that you otherwise wouldn't have uh so it's something where I've just learned I was like oh wow this is great like I need to be more intentional about building the company this way moving forward what 100% it's it's it's it's more about those kind of skill skills and behaviors right like behaviors too and and and drivers yeah exactly like for me it's ownership curiosity and intensity right those three things where people don't always wait to be told um but they can't but yeah don't wait to be told they genuinely care about what their work um and it's not about how they think they haven't been taught to go you need to go through X to get to Y process which I think that's how some colleges teach but it's about what they are able to output.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

When you say tell me more about what you mean by intensity like how do you like gauge that and what does that look like yeah intensity means for me it's it it kind of ties in with a passion point right like they are thinking about like I I think about work and this might sound really sad but I'm passionate about what I do. I love what I do. And so I'm thinking about work from when I wake up to when I go to when I go to bed. And I'm not sad it would be sad if you hated it right just like but I'm like on it honestly it gives me energy thinking about it going this really cool idea and I've literally today using Claude I came up a whole pitch deck which I've uh for for a new idea that I want to spin out here our media we're gonna detail you hate you can present it now we can put it out to the world I'm super hyped like I that that that was a form of being just kind of going through my head when I was trying to get to sleep and stuff of some really really cool project that I'd love to be able to say I achieve that in a year.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

But let's let's see yeah let's see nice nice that's awesome I I love that uh well yeah I mean that's interesting so ownership curiosity and intensity I have like my behavioral breakdown of of I don't know if behavioral traits is like the right way to put it um but like for hires at secure vision um I should actually share with you it's my list is starting to get like longer though so I'm wondering if there's I like yours because it's three yeah yeah we were building out our values chart here at all media like earlier on when we went through this design studio creating our new branding.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Yeah and I was just like folks this list is just getting longer and longer and longer and like nobody is gonna this this won't go in and we need to be able to condense this into like five or six yeah it's mine is starting to get like I'll share it with you on the the chat real fast.

Revenue Per Employee And Talent ROI

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Um it's it's like getting there it's getting up there um but I I'm still refining it but like this is basically what I've defined as like every a player I've ever met at a startup and growth stage company including my own so it's like one is like yeah highly responsive fast proactive um two highly organized and accurate three hundred percent say to ratio to me that's huge like if you say you're gonna do it do it like you know um ask for clarification expectation setting strong prioritization call it how it is clear two-way communication commercially minded is like a more modern thing for me but like everything we do is to accelerate sustainable revenue growth through renewals and upsells like I I am huge on um one thing I've been thinking about lot lately is like making sure that there's a singular goal for the entire organization and everybody realizes that that is what they are there to achieve. So for like what I mean by that and I'm curious to get your thoughts on that but like what I mean by that is like for my company everybody here is to accelerate revenue growth. So I don't care if you're hired as a recruiter GTM finance operate whatever it doesn't matter like at the end of the day we are all hired to accomplish that goal and when I'm hiring people I actually put like a big of like part of the emphasis on on that and not their JD because I want them to understand their JD is flexible and is going to adapt and it's gonna change and it's really about the fastest place the fastest way to get from A to B to accomplish like our North Star. Um so I I want to make sure they're like commercially minded and they really understand like the outcome that we're here to produce and so I I that's a big part of it too.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Like first thing can I just say with the with those values they fit almost perfectly to what we've built out as well here at all meeting right yeah no honestly like for us what we say is own everything. So ownership but owning everything and and the the point of that value and we go into detail on this is it's not ownership not just purely the word ownership because what we don't want to do is create this kind of unconscious um or subconscious kind of thinking that it's your project and you end up with these kind of siloed kind of castles where people are going that's mine that's mine. We have own everything we want everyone to have a genuine curiosity across the business and be able to jump into anything uh very very much in the same same kind of uh uh line of thinking we're also very very transparent and I can't share this today I'm afraid we because I don't I I don't think I can send an NDA to every listener of this we share during the interview process after an NDA signed what our revenue per employee is which is multiple times what some big tech companies are right we're all like we're doing really well and we're and I I kind of say to them it doesn't matter what position you are in the business, right? You might not think that you're bringing revenue in, but you should be right in one way or another.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

That's really smart because it makes them understand like they're that they're there to contribute to that that's literally why we're why we have a like the job that's why we're being hired is to exactly it's it's slightly different line of thinking because we're we're bootstrap and we can say that like you know we're hiring uh because we're able to there's no there's no VC there's no kind of uh bank or loan coming to us we're hiring because we believe in you and we want to increase that revenue per employee and so we need you to think like a business owner any idea that you have let's go yeah yeah that's that's like yeah and I think like the whole like a level of like uh personal accountability is just massive too it goes kind of hand in hand with ownership but like the uh this typical startup stuff like being in enabled like to be like really proactive and to be able to operate with autonomy and to not need your handheld like I I think at the best startups I've I've worked with it's like there are a lot of people there that will be supportive like yeah they will answer any question they have but like you have to sort of take charge of your own onboarding to some extent and like there are resources right but like also go like just make it happen right have the conversation set them up on your calendar don't wait to be presented with information go out you you should you know there should be clarity into like the outcomes need to be produced in the role you know why you're hired get after it right like that type of persona I feel like is so critically important. Well I just I'm I just don't I hate compromising on behavioral fit I can compromise on anything else I can overlook CVs I can do anything the one thing that I just like I think is just the most important is there has to be the cognitive fees like they have to be like people have to be smart uh to to be successful at a lot of these companies but behaviorally like you I've just every time I've compromised it's been a mistake like I've I've I've regretted it.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Yeah when you start to yeah when you start to see um differences across the CV in their profile or what they've said online it's like you need to index on these things and I think I I've seen huge mistakes where you know founders in the past especially when I had my own consultancy they would overlook it they'd be like oh yeah I'm sure it'll be fine and yeah it's not it just well it was gambling at that point.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Yeah exactly yeah so you have to be like the like I think whether or not like people necessarily realize it like our job as talent leaders is we're literally managing the largest investment a company will ever make so I really do see like the role of a talent leader as like an investment manager. And like really because think about it's like it's an eight figure investment that your company's making I've probably I would assume every year it's the biggest literally the biggest investment they're making is in in over in anything else is in people it's in payroll it's like so it's like that's it's it's kind of crazy sometimes when you see like oh go in yeah yeah I well I mean we've got I've got a talent acquisition team of of uh just purely recruiters of 10 10 recruiters right now yeah um and and and and with them you know we're we're as I said earlier on we have quite a lot of first time managers and first time leads they don't always know what good hiring looks like or what good looks like and so it's their job really to be the gatekeepers of a business that's it's 100% right it's like it's a it's a talent acquisition's job to actually make sure that like the company's getting a return on investment on this incredibly large expense right uh on an annual basis. And that's why it's kind of wild to me like when you see some companies it's like they have like a really busted uh tight really busted TA process like with a really insanely tight budget. They don't want to spend any money on it They got like eight figures in payroll, but they don't want to. Oh, we why should we have to pay for this like one piece of tech or like another recruiter? It's like this is literally this person should be this is this is somebody who's doing like managing the largest investment you'll ever make that has the biggest potential to ruin you or to make you successful, right? It's sort of interesting, right? But like that's really how I see like the level of impact and where like talent you like where we should be playing. It's not obviously butts and seats. It's like, hey, we need to take a risk-adverse approach, be the gatekeeper, and we need to make sure we're getting maximum ROI or revenue per employee possible, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:25

That's the game. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Yeah, it's really fun stuff. I'm passionate about it too. I like it.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

I like what we've done.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

It's cool.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

I like the this is the kind of mission that is set off for the talent acquisition team, right? Like so for for this company, you know, joining it when there were 30 employees, we have more than doubled our revenue per employee um over that time. So we've been able to grow the business, but also be able to know density is also improving.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

I'm sure VCs are just trying to throw money at you guys. Are you sure?

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Do you need money?

SPEAKER_01 46:02

Do you want to take some?

SPEAKER_00 46:04

It's so funny. It is so funny about the kind of yeah, the kind of inbound that we get from them. And it's like now you're interested in that we don't get.

Personal Growth And Giving Back

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Yeah, I mean, that's not necessary. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. What a what a cool place to be. That's that's that's really cool. Hey, so I want to talk to you a little bit about like who you're becoming, right? Um, like what growth looks like for you at this point in your life, right? Like again, leaders tuning in, similar place, similar places to you, right? Like TA leadership roles, but I think there's a genuine, you know, you talk about the traits of like eight players that you want to hire, it's like there's this genuine level of curiosity, high level of ownership, of like this desire to consistently try to become like the best version of ourselves and to grow. And so, you know, I'm curious, like when you think about your own development, and not not just within TA, but like holistically, as Tristan, like an entire human being, not just like the VP of people, right? Like, how do you think about your own development and and being like the best version of yourself over the next several years?

SPEAKER_00 47:02

Yeah, there's a couple of tracks to this. Thank you, thanks so much for questioning. Like, there's a couple of tracks uh to this in my mind. Like there's one element of me which kind of goes, you know, take every day as it comes. And and I do, like, we can't take anything for granted, for sure. I've learned that both the hard way uh and and uh and the exciting way, right? Um, you know, we're opening up an office in New York and London in the next couple of months. That's really hype. Let's let's see how this goes and how it grows. I'm sure there'll be more sites in the future um as we uh as we continue to increase. Then there's the other side of me, which is what have I taken from the community um over the years, and how can I give back? Right. So, like one really like I I I was I was at a meetup last week, uh, and this this person in my position, another uh fast growing company, it's kind of like, why do you go to bees, by the way? Like, why are you why why are you at these? Why are you you know you're uh involved in talking to people and discussing and stuff? Um, what are you gonna get out of it? What are you what what are you trying to get here? And I couldn't answer him at first because I didn't actually understand why. I was like, well, why why do I do this? And I I had a bit of an introspective kind of couple of minutes over over dinner, and I came back to him a little bit later and she said, you know, for me, genuinely, it's about being able to uh connect with people that are going through similar, even if it's not the same kind of company, but similar kind of problems, uh, and being able to kind of share, I'm not gonna say trauma bond, but be able to share uh things, uh share share kind of problems and be able to solve them together with different perspectives. And I think it's suit it's really, really important. And I would say that to any leader out there like if you're if you're so kind of I guess just in your frame of mind at your current workplace, I would get out there a little bit and share it. If not for yourself, then for people that want to progress, because it's super like, you know, it's I I I I I think some of the tips and kind of the problems that we've been through um are can be really um can really unlock others. Uh and finally the other the other elements of this kind of story as well is like who do I want to be? Do you know if there's one thing that I regularly just comes up in in into my mind every now and then, and it's like the worst managers I've had throughout my history. It doesn't matter what kind of position, right? It doesn't matter if that's swim coaching or or um or or working in retail at points or or a recruitment agency. And I think about the traits they had, and it just kind of locks me in, right? For until next time I think about it for the next couple of weeks, I'm like, I don't want to be like that. I don't want to do that. I mean, I think about the people that really inspired me to do what I do today. And I try and apply a little bit of that magic with my own, my own kind of personality. Um that's yeah, that's from the heart, Matt. That's really true.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

I love it. I mean, it's I I do um well, yeah, there's a lot. I mean, I I also think it's like it's so important to try to be involved in peer groups, not only for our own development, but to help others. And you know, it's also interesting, and you probably know this as a teacher too. It's like sometimes when you're teaching things, it helps us understand it even better, right? Or we able are able to make other connections to get even better at what we do. So it's it's kind of nice how that that can work, right? It's like we're helping building other people up and we're also helping like it's good for us too. It feels good. Um it's good for us.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

And uh it's all yeah, exactly. It's a way to interpret it because otherwise you're not really thinking about it, you're just doing it. And then this way is kind of underlining it and you're you're understanding why. Exactly.

Closing Thanks And Wrap Up

SPEAKER_01 50:53

Yeah, yeah, that's really cool. Awesome. Well, Tristan, thank you. I I I've really enjoyed recording with you. This was a lot of fun today. Um, really, really good conversation. I I just I'm really grateful that you uh I know you you're you're scaling like crazy, you got all sorts of stuff going on, but uh yeah, thanks for setting aside the time to join the show and contribute to our audience. You're already doing it, you're already giving it back and helping out. So thank you. Awesome. Thank you so much, James. Thank you, everyone. Um, and speak soon. Cheers.