Combining Hanoverian and Dutch Genetics with Dr. Ludwig Christmann

In this episode, Candice Klingbeil discusses combining Hanoverian and Dutch genetics with Dr. Ludwig Christmann. Dr. Christmann is the former director of international affairs, development, and education of the Hanoverian Verband. He is widely recognized as the leading expert on the Hanoverian breed. We begin our conversation of the two studbooks by discussing how the different origins and breeding aims have developed different horses in the Netherlands and Germany. As the breeding principles of the KWPN studbook began to change toward developing riding horses, Hanoverians, as well as other breeds were introduced. Ultimately, all major dressage bloodlines in the Netherlands were founded by German stallions. And in Germany, some Hanoverian breeders, with success, have introduced the sport proven genetics of Dutch horses. 

In order to gauge the frequency of these crossings, we look at the increasing number of German stallions with the Dutch stallion Vivaldi in their pedigree. We also discuss the positive attributes of the premium stallions from the most recent licensing in Verden; the majority of which had Vivaldi in their pedigree.

For more information on the podcast, please visit AHS-foundation.org or email us at ahsfoundationinc@gmail.com. 

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Transcript

Introduction

Welcome back to The American Hanoverian Society

Podcast. I'm your host, Candice Klingweil. In this episode, we discuss combining Hanoverian and Dutch genetics with Dr. Ludwig Christmann.

Dr. Christmann is the former Director of International Affairs, Development and Education of the Hanoverian Verband. He is widely recognized as the world's leading expert on the Hanoverian breed.

We begin our conversation of the two stud books by discussing how the different origins and breeding aims have developed different horses in the Netherlands and Germany.

As the breeding principles of the KWN stud book began to change toward developing riding horses, Hanoverians as well as other breeds were introduced.

Ultimately, all major dressage bloodlines in the Netherlands were founded by German stallions. And in Germany, some Hanoverian breeders with success have introduced the sport-proven genetics of Dutch horses.

In order to gauge the frequency of these crossings, we look at the increasing number of German stallions with the Dutch stallion Vivaldi in their pedigree. We also discuss the positive attributes of the premium stallions from the most recent licensing in Verden, the majority of which had Vivaldi in their pedigree.

Please stay tuned for this fascinating conversation.

Dutch Breed Origins

Hello, Dr. Christmann. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast again. I'm super excited to talk about this topic.

Could we start by discussing some history of the two Steadbooks, the KWPN and the Hanoverian Steadbook?

Yes, thank you very much for the introduction. And I think it is important to talk also about the development of both Steadbooks, because this development also explains what the two breeds can offer. Let us start with Dutch horses, with the KWPN horses.

And while they come from the Netherlands, was home to two warm blood breeds. The one was the Groninger that was spread in the North, and the Groninger was a little heavier, and was a similar type, the old heavy Hohenburger and the Auschwitzens.

And a lighter horse was the Gelderlander, and was spread more in the South.

Maybe there, maybe the soil was also a little lighter, and so the horses were also lighter. And, well, the Gelderlander was originally used as a workhorse, as a farming horse, and also as a carriage horse, but not so much as a riding horse. And, but the Gelderlander was supposed to be real all-rounder, and it was, and this was also, well, the foundation breed for the KWPN horse now.

And from the genetics, well, he was influenced many years ago by the Andalusian study book by Neapolitan, which was an Italian Baroque breed.

Some, well, French influence as well. And then there were the Norfolk Drotters, which came from the UK.

And this Norfolk Drotters would give also more knee action. And of course, when you have a carriage horse, you, that the horse have an impressive shot and with a little bit of knee action. And so, this was the Gelderlander.

And after World War Il, there were also some German horses used in the Netherlands. There was also a Werenstelden named Eklatant. He was by Doerland.

And Doerland was after World War Il, the most successful sire of dressage horses. He bred some Olympic horses. And in 1969, there were several smaller stud books in the Netherlands, and they merged.

And then the KWN was founded in 1969. And since 2006, there are four official breeding directions. So there was the dressage horse, the show jumping horse, and then a carriage horse, which almost looked a little bit like a hackney, which is a real show horse only for driving, and then the Gelderlander.

And the Gelderlander, however, is now supposed is also, so it's the own stud book for the Gelderlander.

And from the idea of the KWPN, this is supposed to be an amateur horse and a horse for leisure riding.

This is also quite interesting that, well, the, and now I think we only talk about the dressage bloodlines in the, in KWPN.

This is the topic of the talk today. And it's quite interesting that all major dressage lines in the Netherlands were founded by German stallions. And this is, I think, quite amazing.

So there were two very influential drachena stallions.

One was the stallion, drachena stallion Doruto. He was born 1962.

And recently, well, Vivaldi by Costolani has been, still is a top drachena. And the drachena is normally the breed that you use also for refinement. And Vivaldi, for example, is the sire of the famous Totilas.

And you find him in the pedigree of many top dressage horses. And there were Holstein stallions such as Flemming. And Flemming, well, was the sire of Greg C.

And Greg C was the sire of Vivaldi. And normally, the Holsteiner stallions, Flemming was also more jumping bred, the Holsteiner stallion. Vivaldi produced, he started a strong dressage line in the Netherlands.

There were also Sels-Froessé stallions, such as Le Mexico, he was a full brother to Furioso II. And Furioso II, he started the line where Ches, the famous dressage stallion in the Netherlands comes from. And I would say that Ches was really the first big star in dressage breeding in the Netherlands, but we also knew that he was not the easiest horse, and he also produced some horses that were quite difficult, but he also produced a big number of cobre horses.

There was also Voltaire, but he was only used for the Chamba breeding program. And the Rhineland stallion, Lord Leatherdale, recently has also been a very famous stallion. He started also a new stallion line in the Netherlands because he is the sire of the famous Glammerdale, who is a great Olympic horse and is one of the top international horses of KWPN.

Hanoverian Evolution

So this was a little bit an overview how the Dutch breed developed. And it is a little bit different to the development of the Hanoverian. And because in Hanover, you have a history of international, big international success for more than 100 years.

The Hanoverian start book was started in the year

1888. But you can say there were Hanoverian spread before that, because the breed was formed around the state start of Zelle. And the state start of Zelle was started already at 1732.

But let's go back to the development of the Hanoverian breed. There was, they started, stationary stallion performance test in 1922 for the Zelle stallions. And that meant that the first steps under saddle over a period of 11 months was a part of this test for 3-year-old stallions.

While one year or two years before, the very first stallion performance test in Germany was in the Drakena breed in Drakenen and the Hanoverian stallion performance test was done after the model of the Drakenas. And that was of course a time where horses were also selected as soldier horses. And part of the performances at that time was a ride over 70 kilometers for 3-year-old stallions actually.

And so long-distance riding, which is of course important for army horses. And when you look for what reason were the horses used at that time, there were two major parts. One part were the farmers.

So the Hanoverian had to be a good farm horse, had to have the willingness to work actually. And on the other side, horses were bred for the army. And the army, of course, wanted lighter horses.

And all Hanoverian bloodlines, you can say, were started by a thoroughbred stallion. So the thoroughbred had always a big influence on the evolution of the Hanoverian. And so you had on one side the farmers, they wanted more heavier work horse.

And then you had, well, the army who wanted to have the riding horse. And there were also different regions in Lower Saxony. You had some regions with heavy soil, and there you found more of the heavier Hanoverian.

And then you had regions like Fairden. You have very light soil, and you didn't need heavy horses. And you also got a lot of lighter horses, which were ideal riding horses.

And as I said, there's a history of more than 100 years for success at the Olympics. In 1912, there was the first ever Olympics with horse world decisions. And this Olympics took place in Stockholm, in Sweden.

And Vero won the silver medal in show jumping. And some years later, then there was of course a break with World War I. And in 1928, then the Olympics were in Amsterdam.

And the Hanoverian Draufganger was the gold medal winner in dressage, actually. And when you look at Draufganger on a photo, he looked like a modern horse, actually. He could be bred today.

He looks thoroughbred and certainly has been a super horse. Then after World War II, there was a big break. The biggest riding horse, Stadburg Drakenen, well, went to Russia.

Not the Stadburg, but Russia conquered the Drakena area, East Prussia. This is now part of Russia. And they also had their own Drakena Stad Girov.

But well, the horses that, the Drakenas that I saw in Russia, well, especially in type and for dressage suitability, did not have the quality like the German Drakenas. But they also have some jumping bloodlines from the Drakena breed. And well, then in Western Germany, then the Hanoverian breed was the dominating breed after World War Il for show jumping and for dressage, actually.

And there was refinement, of course, was necessary.

And then, of course, the Oldenburgers also became very successful. Well, Stadburg in Germany and the Holsteiners a little later than then, they became the leading Stadburg for show jumping in Germany.

And in about 40 years ago, actually, in the Hanoverian breed, we started to specialize the breeding program, so that we had special lines for dressages, dressage horses, and the Hanoverian Verband started the special breeding program for jumping horses. And while the breeding eventing horses are niche, but there are still very dedicated breeders. It is not such a big market as for dressage or show jumping, but there are quite a number of Hanoverian breeders who specialize on breeding eventers.

And the first Dutch stallions, well, were entered into the Hanoverian breeding program maybe about 30 years ago. But there were no stallions that stood in Germany. Well, KWN was then approved, and there were some breeders who got semen from the Netherlands, like Fero, for example.

And it's also quite interesting, the stallion Rousseau.

Does Rousseau, is he well known for you, Candice?

Yeah, Rousseau, yeah.

He had about two years where he stood in Germany, on a German station, but he was not used to much, and the horses he had produced were not really what the Hanover breeders was looking for, but he was very successful in the KWPN start book. One of his famous sons is Zuck, and Zuck was the sire of Seizuan who produced The Secret, and then Rousseau, he was imported to the US, and then he stood in Maryland also on a station, and he became quite influential in KWPN.

Yeah, I think known to produce very good temperament.

Yeah, maybe well, like The Secret, for example, this branch that was started by Rousseau is quite important actually. Yeah.

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So this was a little bit about the development of the two breeds. What is also interesting, I was talking about a little bit more higher knee action from Dutch horses. And while the Hanoverian breed, while we were looking for good freedom in the shoulder, but no knee action.

And so horses should have no knee action. That's quite interesting. And so there's also a difference between Hanoverian and the KWPN breeding aim.

Breeding Goals

Yeah, I would like to talk more about the breeding aim. I was just going to mention when you were talking about the stallion performance and how they had to ride over 70 kilometers. I read that for the mare performance, for one of the very first mare performances, that the mares had to pull a plow.

Is that right?

Well, they didn't have to pull a plow, but it's true that they would have to pull something. But it didn't have to have a plow, but they had to pull some weight, yes.

I always tell my mares that they have a DEC.

Yeah, but I think that was not maybe 45 years ago or so. And actually, when we talk about the Dutch horses and the Dutch dressage horses, the breeding aim is Robri horse. And it's not just that they say, we want to breed a dressage horse, they will say, we want to have, we want to breed a Robri horse.

And some criteria about confirmation is pretty similar between Hanover and the Netherlands. But with regards to the the jod, well, in the Netherlands, they want to have more knee action, of course, and also from the origin of the breed, the Gelderlander, that was the breed. And also I see that the neck is a bit more vertical, than the neck that we want to have in the Hanoverian breed.

And what we want is that the horse, the horses in Hanover need to have a good self-carriage. But, well, they must have a neck that also drops, and so that the back can swing, and that the movement goes, that you have a supple back. And both stat books want to breed a sound and a correct horse.

And the breeding aim actually is not to breed just horses for full production, to produce expensive foals. The aim must be to produce a sound horse that is still sound at the age of 15, because when you have, well, an international horse and a dressage horse, it's maybe at the peak at the age of 13 for Grand Prix and so that must be the aim actually, also to breed a really sound horse.

I read where they, for the guidelines, I just read this off of the Hanover honor website, that it said the importance of hoof and confirmation quality is to be increased again. Is that right? Was there a problem with that?

It is important. And maybe there were some cases where when you had a horse with a super type and super gaits, that there were maybe some compromises done on correctness or so. And then this can cause some problems actually.

And I think now, well, the management is a bit more strict. So to look especially at the correctness and especially also the pastimes, the pastimes have to be strong and that there's a chance that the horses stay sound until they are pretty old. And the breeding aim, the Hanoverian start book said the horse should be suitable as a sport horse or also as a leisure horse.

With regards to soundness, temperament, ability is very important. But there is also specialization on dressage, for jumping and also for eventing. And when you look today now at the salient licensing, the dressage salients don't have to jump anymore.

And the horses, the jumping horse and dressage horse, have different movement and so on. And so this was very important. But the Hanoverian Verband did not say, we want to breed, of course, we want to have cobbree horses.

But the breeding aim does not say that, well, the breeding aim is a cobbree horse. The breeding aim is a dressage horse. And but a dressage horse that can also be ridden by amateur riders.

And I think also that there's a big market for horses in Germany. I just looked at the population in Germany, the population of 83 million people. And in the Netherlands, the population of 23 millions.

And so in Germany, there's a big German market also for horses. And there, the rideability is very important. So also for the amateur rider.

And of course, we're also in Dressage. But the, well, the gates are supposed to be a little bit flat. And what I would now say about the differences between KW Brand and the Hanoverian.

The Dutch horses maybe don't have this big elastic rod from the beginning on. And also the walk sometimes can be a little bit smaller, a bit less than the Hanoverian. And I'm a little bit sceptical with the more vertical neck, maybe, that can lead to the fact that, well, the horse is not supple.

And I think the best gate is the candor. And the breeding aim in the Netherlands is also that the horse should be built uphill and should move uphill.

And I think this is very important.

And that is also a very important quality that we can get from the Dutch horses in the Hanoverian start book. Like a nice uphill candor and also an uphill jot.

And sometimes you can see also at the confirmation, some horses have very shorter front leg than the hind leg.

And with horses like that, it is not so easy to be uphill also in the movement. And this is certainly something that we can get positively by the use of Dutch horses. And of course, it is important that you have good rideability and good temperament.

And here, this reminds me also at the breeding aim of Marianne Heyman in the US, who wants that her breeding aim is amateur-friendly cow-breed horse.

And she did not just say this, but she also did it. And she had a very good stallion for this.

That was her stallion Don Brinchipe by Donahal out of Brinsach, Mather. And in Germany, the D line, the line that Donahal comes from, is a super line for cow-breed also, and also rideability and temperament.

And this is very important.

About the Dutch horses four years ago, I also had some interviews with some trainers and breeders in Germany, and it was quite interesting what they said.

So there was a big breeder not so far away from Zelle, who observed with offspring of Dutch stallions that maybe rhythm and impulsion and the walk maybe sometimes could have been better. And without a good walk, I cannot sell dressage horse today.

And also another big breeder from the Hamburg area put a big emphasis on rideability. He said, I need rideable horses, that also the amateur rider can ride. The horses must be clear in the head.

And so he was a little bit careful, well, with Dutch horses. And on the other hand, Heinrich Baermann is one of the most influential breeders in Germany, is now very convinced of Dutch horses. He said, the most important criteria are good self-carriage, good top line, an active, powerful hind leg, correctness, angulation of the front leg, some knee action in the front leg, and light footedness.

And the biggest asset with Dutch horses is the candour. And he said, I remain holland-minded. So he likes to use some Dutch saliens on his Hanoverian mares.

And also talked to a big trainer in Germany, was in the Olympic German team, and who is married to a Dutch rider, actually. And he also is convinced of the world program of the Dutch horse. And for him, the most important criteria of a good dresser was a good canter, willingness to perform and willingness to go.

And he also said, if the willingness to go is too great, it can be also difficult for less experienced riders. And this explains a little bit what you get from both sides, and the good points and what you have to consider.

Okay.

Yeah. So it's so interesting that there was resistance to using the Dutch blood with worries about the walk and the temperament. But it seems like Vivaldi has been used quite a bit.

Vivaldi's Influence

I was looking back to 2018, there were 16 stallions in the licensing at Bairden with Vivaldi in their pedigree. And this year, I think there were probably twice as many. And then of the eight stallions that were premium, five had Vivaldi in their pedigree.

I was wondering if you could talk about what it was about Vivaldi that made Varian breeders start to use him.

Actually, I looked it also up. At this year's licensing in Hanover, 76 were presented. And out of these, 66, out of 76 had Dutch genetics also.

And some breeders like to use some Dutch blood.

And out of these, 66, 34 had blood. Wow.

About half of the horses with the KWN blood had Vivaldi blood. And from the Vivaldi sons, of course, Italis was the biggest stallion with most offspring.

But your question, I looked it up and breeders didn't use Vivaldi so big because he never stood in Germany.

He was offered from the Netherlands, and only 190 offspring of Vivaldi were registered. But he really became a stallion with a very big influence on the breed. And probably also at this licensing, he maybe was the stallion that you found most, in particular of all stallions.

And this, I think, this is the fascination of horse breeding. I saw when Vivaldi was licensed, and you could see he's a good horse, but there were also some things that were not so super. And but he, so it was, it was good to license him.

But you would not say when he was presented to you, what a superstar. So that was not Vivaldi. But this is sometimes you cannot foresee what a stallion produces.

And sometimes you have stallions that look super.

And after five years, nobody talks about the stallion anymore because he was disappointing in what he produces. And then you have stallions that, so the stallions that look good, that also had a good type, and were writable and they could work.

But you would never think that the stallion would influence the breed, actually. And this is exactly what happened with Vivaldi. So he did not look like a stallion who would become a superstar.

But he just produced good horses, actually. And he passed on a certain type, and they were leggy, and they were also writable, and yet his hind leg could have been, from the confirmation of the hind leg, he could have been a little bit better. But you could not see that so much in the offspring, actually.

And it is really amazing how influential Vivaldi came.

But there's no real reason. You could not say he was a superstar when he was presented.

Wow. That's so interesting.

I think that is quite interesting. And his son Vitalis is now really much stamping while the German dressage breeding. And he was bred in the Netherlands, but while his dam sire is, he was in Oldenburg, Stelten, raising back to Donnerhall.

Vitalis Legacy

Vitalis also has Donnerhall on the dam side. And I think, well, this is for me also maybe part of the reason why he is what he is, because he has three good gates, he is nice and uphill, has a very active hind leg, but he is also supple. He doesn't have this vertical neck, but very well formed neck, has a strong back and is super rideable, and gives a lot of things to.

And his development, I think, is also quite interesting because he is as a three-year-old. He was, I think, licensed for the Westphalian Stadbuch in Germany, but he was not licensed in the Netherlands. And then he was successful in the US.

In 2013, he won the USAF Championships for six-year-olds in the US. And his rider was Charles-Otto Eurost, so an American rider. And then he went to Europe, and he was highly placed in the World Championships for young dresser shows.

And then he was sold to Paul Schogemoehle, and three years later, he was successful in the Berger Burg Pokal. This is the biggest championship in Germany for younger, upcoming dressage horses. And he really puts a stamp on his offspring, really passes on his type and his temperament and the way he moves.

And so this is very interesting. It will be interesting how this will develop in the future.

During our breed orientation course at Lamplight, we saw a lot of horses with Vitalis and also a lot of horses with Secret in their pedigree. Yeah, a lot.

And in, at the licensing, I think this Valdiviani's son, he was sold to the US. Yes, he is already a grandson of Vitalis. His sire is Veneno, and his dame sire is Diamante as the D line again.

I think that the Valdiviani, the dame was Feinrich.

Yes, Feinrich. Well, he has a diamante mother.

Oh, okay.

But the Valdiviani's son, he had a Feinrich dame, yes.

And but Garnier, I think is just a nine-year-old now, and he is three horse already, and he was trained by Isabel Wehrd. And so I think he's also a very talented dresser horse, and is very popular in the Rhineland area, where he stands also on the breeding station.

And I think he was a good pig actually at the licensing this stallion. I had some remarks about him, and he was correct, and was always appealed, that was I mentioned, with a really good counter, and his temperament also looked very good. So that was the notes that I took actually.

So I wish the new owners all the best, that this was a good pig maybe. Yeah.

Yes, it's an owner in Washington State, and also on the west coast of the US. Very exciting, super exciting.

Yeah, he was a premium stallion.

There was another premium stallion that went to Sala, the Vivaldon diamond hit.

Yeah. Well, it was also, and Vivaldon also became popular, actually. In the beginning, breeders were a little bit not so enthusiastic, but he really produced the talented dressage horses, and Vivaldon himself had Donahal on the dam side as a dam sire.

And so there is, with this pedigree of this Vivaldon son, it is line bred also to Donahal because his mother was a daughter of diamond hit. And then you have Wiedertanz, who was also a good sire for, also for Grand Prix horses, actually. And this is also the mother line of Franziskus who has been an Olympic horse for Germany.

And this statue was not on the sale because the owner that presented him has a connection to the state statue, and he will stand at the center.

Yeah, that's exciting.

Yeah, he was also a brain room style then, and he certainly deserved it, actually.

I think they have named him Luis Dorro, L-O-U-I-S-D-O-R-O, yeah, of gold. So maybe, yeah. I thought it was really interesting to see a son of Viva Vitalis.

I think he was the only Viva Vitalis in the preselection, and he was selected, and then he was also a premium stallion. Yeah, and his damsire was Dante's Junior, and the dam's damsire was Now or Never, and he was also a premium stallion. Do you have any comments on him?

No, just a moment. Viva Vitalis. He was a stallion with some substance, I think.

He was spread by Manfred Schäfer, who has been the president of the Hanoverian Verband, who was more of a jumping breeder, but he also has a couple of dressage wares. And it's quite interesting that once a stallion also has on the dam side some jumping blood, even staccato is on the dam side. But some jumping blood for dressage lines is good, because then you get strength and power, and that can be also be an advantage.

But he looks like a powerful stallion to me.

Yeah, he's certainly powerful. And as a two and a half year old, he was already 170, and had quite a lot of substance. So I think he will be a because actually.

And he was sold by Hildesland. So I would see maybe a career, a good career maybe as a performance source. And I think that is probably maybe a good pass for him.

Could you also speak a little bit about Viva Vitalis? He is one that I really have been following and like a lot.

Viva Vitalis is almost a copy of Isaiah Vitalis. And he was this year, he was the best at the

Bundeschampionate in Warendorf. Germany has the equivalent to the Young Horse Championships in the US, also in Warendorf every year.

And Viva Vitalis won the glass of six-year-old dressage horses. So he was the best six-year-old dressage horse in Germany. And I think that says a lot about him.

And he did not do any wrong step, and he was just an amazing horse there. And I think it is also a good breeding. And so I think the point is, however, of course, there are so many sons of Vitalis now.

And this is, and many of them are really very good producers and pass on exactly what you want, actually.

Yeah, we have two stallions by Vitalis in North America. Valantis, who we saw at Lamplight in Chicago, and then also Valancio in Canada at Panagia Farms.

Yeah, and this is a pretty tall horse, and he came from California. And you could see he was one of the best young horses at the championships. And I think he's still in a developing stage, and he will fill up a little bit more.

He lost some weight because of the long shipment from California. But he really did always a super job.

He was always with a rider, and really was a good performer, actually.

Yeah, it was fun to meet him too. He's very sweet temperament. And then I know you're not familiar with Valancio, but he certainly has another pedigree that combines the Dutch and the Hanoverian bloodlines.

Yes. His name is Sire Lancet. He was a Varen stallion.

I think he was a Wenceson, maybe. And he was an international co-briere, also, but while competing in the Netherlands. And the third sire is Rubenstein.

He started a very famous Bresage bloodline in Germany, was also a co-briere stallion. And I looked at the production of Valancio. Well, he's born 2011, it's now 14 years.

But he already produced a son in Germany that is successful on co-briere level, actually. I don't think he was, he bred a lot of horses, maybe, at his time. But one of his sons already successful on co-briere level.

And I think he also had three, three licensed sons, three licensed sons. Yeah. I would love to hear your overall impression of the stallions this year at the licensing.

Breeding Outlook

As the mechanics are improving, is the confirmation and the correctness also improving to support the health and the longevity of these more modern horses? Do you have any concerns or cautions for breeders?

In general, of course, while the stallions were preselected, like there's a preselection, while the commission gets to see maybe 200 stallions who are presented or 250, and then they pick the best, maybe the 80 best stallions out of this. And so, well, so in general, there, I did not see a big soundless problem.

Where I'm a little bit concerned is there were quite a few tall stallions, and when a stallion is licensed with a height of 172 or 173 centimeters, then he will end up to be 17.3 hand stallions at the end.

So, and I think we have to be careful that while the stallions, the horse are not getting too tall and too big actually. And then we look in the Netherlands. In the Netherlands, they also know what they have to improve, and while they also use a lot of German genetics, so the Dutch horse become more German, and the German horse becomes a little bit more Dutch actually.

But also, when KWPN uses German blood, there must be also connection to Grand Prix, and I think the best blood lines that you can use for Dutch blood is the D line. It's just an amazing blood line with Donahal.

Right. Very established in the Grand Prix. Thank you so much, Dr. Christmann.

It's been a pleasure.

Well, thank you. It was a pleasure also. It was for me also a good conversation with you, Candice, and thank you for doing that.

Thank you, and I hope you join us on the podcast again. Thanks for listening, and thanks again to Dr.

Christmann for his availability and sharing his valued knowledge. For more information on the podcast, please visit aahsfoundation.org, or email us at aahs-foundation-inc, or one word at gmail.com.

We'd love to hear from you.