Venture Capital is Broken: The Evergreen Solution No One's Talking About

"RAISE CAPITAL LIKE A LEGEND: https://go.fundraisecapital.co"

In this powerful episode of the Making Billions podcast, host Ryan Miller and guest Michelle Urben dismantle the outdated conventions of traditional venture capital. Michelle argues that the industry is "broken" due to its strict adherence to stage-specific investing and misaligned incentives, which create significant funding gaps. She introduces the innovative Continuum Fund model, which blends early-stage and late-stage investments to balance liquidity and durability for both investors and founders.

This episode provides a blueprint for fund managers to build a successful and lasting legacy by aligning purpose and profit.

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[THE GUEST]: Michelle Urben is the Managing Partner of Synergos Fund, an investment firm dedicated to reshoring industrial supply chains. With a focus on energy, agriculture, and mining, Synergos aims to back mission-aligned founders building scalable businesses.

[THE HOST]: Ryan is a recovering CFO turned angel investor in

Transcript

Ryan Miller 

My name is Ryan Miller, and for the past 15 years, I've helped hundreds of people to raise millions of dollars for their funds and for their startups. If you're serious about raising money, launching your business or taking your life to the next level, this show will give you the answers so that you too can enjoy your pursuit of Making Billions. Let's get into it.

Michelle Urben 

We find that this is a model that has attracted not just first time investors, not just sophisticated investors, not just experienced investors in venture, but it's really allowing us to capture the imagination and the investment interest of folks that have never invested in venture before.

Ryan Miller 

Michelle, welcome to the show.

Michelle Urben  

Thanks, Ryan, and I am so excited to be on your show, Making Billions is truly creating a strong community that's shining a light on real innovation and frankly, you know your focus on people who are out there building things that matter. Well, we need to replicate it and do it over and over. And then, obviously, if we'd love to have you in Washington, DC, I invite you to come see our our town, and as we continue to focus on doubling down on innovation, I think your expertise is is much needed here and will be much appreciated. And again, thank you for having me on your show.

Ryan Miller 

Yeah, thanks for being here, and it would be an honor. I've never been to DC. Actually. I have a pass through briefly, but I regrettably did not get the experience I had hoped, just because it was so brief, and I would be an honor to be there. Now, you are making things happen. So let's dive in, you said that traditional venture is broken. So if you had to point to one practice that makes this industry already dead on arrival, what would that be, and how does your continuum structure solve for that failure?

Michelle Urben

Sure, the practice I would point to is a strict adherence to stage specific, stage investing and what do we find? We find, or rather, what is the outcome, the outcome is that companies are funded in specific rounds, and never do they see the additional funding rounds. So it truly creates a funding gap, right? So at the synergist fund, and with our continuum model, our focus is on the mission of each of these companies. We want them to achieve the solutions that they're delivering to the world around energy, creating more base load. We have a nuclear play that we love, company I should say it's not a play. In the recycling of spent nuclear fuel, waste to sludge, waste to energy, sludge to energy, but we want to solve persistent problems. So this is our mission, and our aligned mission to each of the founders is to support them through them from the beginning to the end. 

Ryan Miller 

Brilliant. So finding that is, I guess, the biggest issue that we're talking about is that stratification and holding too hard to that line. You know, it's interesting. I've seen recently, and I'm not sure if you've seen it as well, but we've even seen private equity kind of do a little bit of what you're seeing is they'll slide into some of the later stage VC, typically they didn't play it was a very clear line to say, you get VC up to this point, and then after that, you go to PE and then after that, your IPO, and then it's public funding. And now you're spot on, I'm seeing it too, where traditional venture summer, summer call in time of death. I don't think it's that dramatic, but I think what we're really seeing, regardless of all these different calls, is there's definitely some tectonic plates that are shifting in the venture capital space. And the Evergreen model that you guys do is a really cool development of that, anything else you can add to that.

Michelle Urben  

So typically, evergreen funds, they build an exit for their limited partners on a periodic basis. Call it every year, they can make a withdrawal. But that also impacts the true liquidity of the underlying companies, right, because then you're forced, if you don't have enough buffer, you're forced to liquidate right to meet those funding gaps. So it leads to a premature or forced exit, perhaps, right? We don't want to do this, right, so what we do is the continuum Fund invests in three categories, so incubating companies, scaling companies, and then commercializing companies. Therefore the liquidity demands requirements of far LPS can be met, right? So we can show them some returns give it the three, three year time frame. We target two to 3x in that, in that segment, and then, you know, call it 5x plus for our scaling over a longer time frame, call it five to seven and seven and above for our incubating companies. Our mission is to ensure that the companies that we invest in one are really needed by the world, and we know that despite the history of all the venture funding in the world, that persistent challenges still remain. Right, we still need to keep we need to keep investing in these impactful deep tech companies. But at the same time to expand our broader to expand our base of investors, we are meeting that liquidity requirement by investing in later stage companies. Right, we find that this is a model that has attracted not just first time investors, not just sophisticated investors, not just experienced investors in venture but it's really allowing us to capture the imagination and the investment interest of folks that have never invested in venture before. And there are other characteristics of the fund that we built into it that address other pain points of folks investing in alternatives.

Ryan Miller 

Brilliant and you know, with all of that, there's tons of incentives and different things that come in for both entrepreneurs, for fund managers, for limited partners, general partners, there's all kinds of people and everyone in between. So my question for you, then is, what inefficiencies and say maybe incentives that are misaligned, are you seeing in the standard VC or venture capital models right now?

Michelle Urben

I think the obsessive, if I can call it, that obsessive focus on quick exits and this culture of information opacity right at the Synergos Fund transparency is very, very key for us, or critical for us. The more our underlying investors know about the cohort of portfolio companies they're investing in, I think that just allows them to clearly see that, you know, if they are impact investors, they're seeing the development or the progress with their values, right, with their investing values. The fund does not invest with a necessarily, with an eye to a quick exit. Again, our focus is, you know, why are we investing in late stage so that our incubating companies can get funded by the same investor, right? So that they'll be more willing to support that, because you know what, their minimum investment will be covered in a much shorter time, versus waiting for your 10 plus one plus one with a seed stage investment, right and plus, we provide diversity. Yes, we're still focused on a few areas, Energy, Agriculture, health, mining, but this still is diversified, and I we, we often have these conversations with investors, you know, but I only like agri tech. I'm already heavily involved with my own business. I own farming companies, I just want nuclear, right? So what we tell them is, well, we want to be able to continue to fund the entire cohort, support the entire cohort but after your first million, sure you can dial up, you can increase your your investments in curio or alternatively, if you wanted more agri tech, right, and agri tech, we can have a day's conversation on how agri tech companies have not gotten the support of venture capitalists, right. So there is a lot of flexibility built into the fund, but this is thoughtful flexibility, right, it, again, addresses the LPS values work, and you'll hear me say it 10, 20, 30 times today. Mission alignment is very key for us, which is why our network of investors will have us to be their trusted partner throughout this journey. So that's on the LP side, and that reflects with our relationship with the founders, because guess what they want, right? Founders need a partner, they need an aligned partner for their journey, right throughout their growth journey. And that's what we want to be, both from the deployment investing side, close partners to our founders, not getting in their way, in fact, getting out of the way or helping them find a better way. We want to support them and at the Synergos Fund, I'd love for you to get to meet my co GPS Rabbi & Yehudah Moskowitz, strong operators, strong founders. What they're able to bring to their table is their network of experts in these technologies, right their expertise and in navigating, where can we source non dilutive capital right? Their ability to map out what can we do to make a stronger, more resilient US economy, and therefore a supportive economy to the global economy, to the world, right? So it's, I think there have been evergreen funds, but the continuum approach is a way that provides foundational strength to the founders so that they can, they can solve, you know, they can deliver their product. 

Ryan Miller 

I love that so, and I'd love to talk about that so, because I've been wondering this with me ask you, so how does your continuum fund differ from evergreen, or say, just the traditional venture capital structures?

Michelle Urben 

We'll be able to provide in our continuum model, faster distributions, right, you know, again, it goes back to that managing for that most conservative investor that doesn't want a long hold. But if we keep that clip going where we give them a distribution every three years, and in fact, their minimum is likely already met at that time frame. You know, we want to be able to continue to capture, you know, a share of their wallet for these transformative companies, right? And I think we have many impact funds, we have many impact investors. I care less about measuring impact, I just want to get to the work of really delivering on with these transformative companies.

Ryan Miller 

Brilliant now a lot of times, and I know funds, maybe you've run into it, there's always fees that come up, and especially fee sensitivity. So how does your fee sensitive structure practically protect LPS when you're funding that innovation that you're talking about?

Michelle Urben

It's the transparency and right and knowing what they're getting into. I think my personal experience is I can understand the two and 20 feet, which is what the which is pretty standard, but then all of a sudden you get a capital call for administrative, custodial, all of these other hidden fees that I did not know. I may have signed up to it, but not clearly that it would then run up my annual fee to a ridiculous number, between five to 10% and this often happens, and it's even harder for international investors, right? Because they go through a private bank, in private banking, Wealth Management institution, they have to create an SPV for tax or for other, for other legal regulatory issues, right? And each of those feeder funds, let's call it, that's what they're called rather, they charge another five to 8% right? So that really erodes the returns to the LPS and I think it's about time that we try to do what we can. And good news is that there are now powerful tools around administration, right, AI is accelerating and helping the way we do things on a day to day basis, much faster, much easier, right? Our tools allow for us to report to our investors their capital accounts. They have access to it whenever we have updated information on underlying portfolio companies, they get it as soon as we can get the information out to them. For me, information is power for everyone, and we're pretty secure with our deal flow, Ryan, because the truth is they come to us, or we create these companies, we help build these companies. I go back and highlight curio, which is the nuclear energy company. My co GPS founded this company, right? So where, if the solution doesn't exist out there, we will build it.

Ryan Miller 

That's the right attitude. I love it. I'm that way. It's like, either it exists or it will exist, but either way, we're getting this deal done.

Michelle Urben

And we don't want to be the only ones that do this, right, we need to remove the fee drag. We need to remove this friction of fees with investors, because there are investors that could be mission aligned, but then you tap on fees that they just can't get over. Let's help them get over that by reasonable fees and transparent fees, right and also the number of times you call. I mean, you know this, right, what, what don't you like getting a capital call every quarter? 

Ryan Miller 

Yeah, it's annoying.

Michelle Urben

Let's just simplify it and it costs money to wire, right? Well, what is it not these days, $50 per wire and you know for US investors that it's probably more convenient, right, because you can just do an ACH transfer. But like for international investors, there's buying the the currency and then the wire fee. So let's remove this, let's remove this fee friction.

Ryan Miller   

Yeah, and UBTI and double taxation, and it's a lot and so you want to be, as I like to call you want to be someone pitching deals to investors, although you are, it's better to position yourself as a solution architect, and that that essentially shifts you away from pitching deals to now saying not only this deal, but this structure and how we've done it, and our capital calls and our fees, this is a solution for you. It's not a deal. And then you're going to be surprised by all these capital calls for custodial fees. What are some of those fee categories that a lot because we have a lot of family offices around the world. So what are some of those fee categories that you would suggest that they should also check and ask that tend to be a little bit hidden in this industry.

Michelle Urben  

Administrator fees, custodial fees, other soft costs that just eat away at their returns. You know, these subscription documents, we also need to simplify them, right because there's a lot of hidden language there that, you know, it's not even in fine print, it's there. But you know, for newer investors, they don't necessarily understand this, right, they don't have the eagle eye that Ryan Miller has, for example, so let's, let's, let's just simplify it, right? The time engaged, engaging with investors should be about the investment. Should be about the companies. It shouldn't be about reminding you of your capital call please, need it, you know? Sorry, it's funny, I just aged, I just aged myself with my handheld telephone.

Ryan Miller 

You got it so, you know? So that's on the fee side, and there's also the investment thesis side and you and I have spoken about yours when we first met. I'd love to learn more a little bit about your thesis is, but my question for you is, why rate or why prioritize reshoring energy security and ag tech?

Michelle Urben

What have we seen discussed over the air and in recent months? It's really around supply chain and our reliance on perhaps not the best actors in our in our world, nuclear is quite in the forefront of that, because we do source raw materials from other countries. We need to build that capability in the US, you know, we already have nuclear fleets, where we have the largest nuclear fleet in the world. And what does that mean? We also have a lot of nuclear waste, and this is valuable waste. When you take a nuclear reactor, and I know you're very familiar with this, right, this is more for your audience's edification than yours. But you know that nuclear fuel runs for five years, and within that five years, only 4-5% of that is actually utilized. The 95%, 96% becomes waste. So allow Curio, and Curio has proven, you know, groundbreakingly so lab scale testing of this recycling capability from that recycled from that waste, we're able to capture 95-96% sense of that waste into new secure source of nuclear fuel, not to mention the isotopes, some of the world's most expensive isotopes needed for cancer treatment, needed by our laser industries, again, supporting the medical industry and space industry, I know that might be an area of interest to your listeners.

Ryan Miller 

Oh, yeah, and me as well, for sure. So we got, like, a dangerously low base load of energy supply, you've got a really cool solution that is part of your portfolio. One of the other areas that I find interesting, I love to get your take on, is rare earths. So we, I've, we've had some rare earth discussions with some economists, with some actual suppliers. We had someone that moves about 250 tons of rare earth, phenomenal stuff and I know when we first met, you were telling me a little bit about this. What are you seeing as far as what's going on with rare earths and some of the tectonic shifts that are happening around the world?

Michelle Urben

Sure and again, I would love to have Rabbi and Yehuda continue this conversation with you. One of the companies they invested at their signatures holdings, which is their the brothers family office was USA rare earth, right? I think if I, if I recall, one of the most important steps was really around regulation, like, let's mine these rare earths, right? Let's, let's find safe ways to do this, but let's get to the to the work of, you know, mine to magnets. So I think as long as regulation and kind of this raising awareness of what we can do and some of the technologies that will help us do that, I think that's going to be very, very helpful for us, because, again, this is a national security issue, right, reliance on outsiders, and honestly, it's an economic imperative. I mean, would you rather find something here than have to import it at such a high cost, no, right? Obviously, there's an initial capital outlay that both public and private, and I think specific to rare earths, it needs private and public partnership. But let's get to, let's get to that work, right and by the way, it's not just resorting what I really want to focus on is building our own and strengthening our own supply chains, because at the end of the day, we are part of a global ecosystem, right? So let's, let's, let's also share it the other way, right? Why should we be net importers versus net exporters of these critical minerals?

Ryan Miller 

Yeah, brilliant. You know, for the longest time, the US has had a critical stockpile of oil and gas. I think in maybe it exists, and I'm just naive, and the internet will be internet and keeping me honest and please do that. But I think just as critical is a strategic reserve of rare earth metals. We've got magnets for different power plants, microprocessors are a big part of that. Solar panels are a big part of that. A lot of what we've run on is not just oil and gas, but also rare earths. And it comes down to not just making the economy work, but like you talked about, the sovereignty could be at risk if you don't have a critical supply chain in place for whatever country. But we'll talk about the US as well, and maybe Canada, where I'm at, as well. Now with that, before you mentioned that a big one of the big misalignments in the VCE space is this issue, this obsession with these exits, and some of the things kind of go funny with that. So without exits as the main driver, how do you guys balance durability with liquidity?

Michelle Urben 

I can keep talking about this, as you know, Ryan. So the companies that we invest in in the commercializing stage, these are companies where we see we have a good site to the exit right because they're already revenue generating, they just need a little bit of a an injection of capital so that they can commercialize much faster lower their cost of goods get to profitability level. And that clear focus on including this segment into the fund, again, really just allows us to then continue to invest in earlier stage companies that balances the liquidity. And again, it's really about the conversation, that first conversation with the LPS right being able to tell them that this is the the part of these are the different parts of the portfolio. This is what we aim to achieve within the portfolio. Again, this transparency, communication, regular communication with LPs. I mean, how many funds are there that never even communicate, right because they go with the understanding, or they continue. I think what is a failure to investors that a venture fund is a black box. It shouldn't be that, right? We should always like, why am I finding out public information about why am I finding out information about a private company in the public ahead of my fund manager, right? I am the I'm responsible for my LPS funds, so that transparency of communication, where, when, when we expect, exits as they come into the fund with particular companies in their portfolio. I think that just takes away a lot of this rather, it just adds the clarity between the relationship and the trust between ourselves, as in GPS with the LPS

Ryan Miller 

Brilliant. You know, you mentioned a big one, something that's cool that you do and I knew it existed, but I never saw it quite the right way until you brought it on. Is coming in at late stage, coming in a little bit later in the VC model. And I know you're we're saying, you know, that stage strata, if you're too rigid on that, that can cause a lot of problems. But just for sake of conversation, we'll say necessarily the stage, but maybe, maybe the phase of the business coming in a little bit later. There was a bit of a strategy to that as it relates to durability and liquidity and I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit to that.

Michelle Urben

Yeah, so the impact really, right, one we want all of our companies to become durable companies. We don't ever want this trade off between your values as an investor and returns, right? That's not I think for us, our mission is to deliver values and returns, deliver aligned with your values. The late stage companies again, we don't necessarily want a quick exit somehow. And as we continue to plan for this, we have a thought around creating a private equity for some of these later stage companies and continuing that relationship with the LP so that we're delivering dividends to them, right? So it's becoming, and you know this already, it's becoming a wealth management tool. And I think that just continues to not only do we invest in legacy durable companies, we're actually creating a wealth management path for families to be supported in their journey by the Synergos Fund. The durability of other companies that need supporting happens because we allow for access to late stage. So really, that is the impetus is to get more people investing in these companies that need several funding rounds by giving them liquidity with the late stage, right? So these are different companies, yes, but then over time, they're going to see themselves, oh, my money from day one, I can now see it being invested, not just as a seed investor. Now, Curio is in a Series A, it's in a series B, it's in a Series C. So this conversation, I'm so excited to have this conversation with all of our LPs, showing them these milestone achievements. These milestones are these phenomenal companies. And guess what, it's a conversation, right, we're going to get input. We're going to get insights from our LPS too, and that's what we want. We want a strong relationship. We want a strong partnership. We want transparency and again, I cannot stress this enough, we want mission alignment, where values and returns are achieved together?

Ryan Miller 

Yeah, purpose and profit to who knew those can come together? Well, I know you do, so you know, a lot of the time. So we're talking a lot about constructing it with fees, and being transparent and evergreen versus closed ended and fund model being what it is and where it's going, and balancing liquidity. What would you say as far as constructing a portfolio, especially in this industry. But everybody constructs portfolio in their own way, but let's focus on yours. What would you say is logic behind taking, say, a 40 to 60% stakes of an early stage fund or position, versus a smaller, but later stage? What's the logic between those two as far as you guys can see it?

Michelle Urben 

Yeah, it truly is balancing that liquidity at risk management, right, we know that late stage tends to be the better risk managed because it's addressed. It's gone through the hurdles, right, it's gone through their hoops. These are commercializing companies, hopefully they're revenue generating. I mean, we know that companies can IPO without even being profitable and never becoming profitable in their lifetime, right but for us, revenue and profitability are key. But, you know, we take on the this little bit, but it's also like a little bit in the late stage, but this is where we get that shorter timeframe in terms of getting a return to our LPs. But we want them to take that liquidity risk, right or lack of liquidity risk, or longer term investment in energy, sustainable energy companies like Gate 5. Gate 5 is one of the companies that we continue to vet. You know, one thing is certain is that human where we're humans and the population is growing, human waste can be processed and has the same density as coal to create energy, right? So it's, it's, it's imperative for the Synergos Fund, and honestly, this is the education, this is the advocacy that we go through with our LPs, is to, let's, let's all work towards clean energy together, whether it's, you know, clean base load, and for us, nuclear with a recycled fuel, creating a secure fuel source with a small modular reactor. You know, that's your clear cut, closed loop solution, and probably eight years, right? That's that's going to help the US, right, that's going to help our allies as well. And then sludge, you know, sludge to energy we you know, you take the solids, the solids, you burn it as energy. But what do you also capture? You know, you capture that rare resource, water, that important resource called water, so and again, that leads all the way up to our agri tech place, right, because what are we trying to do is grow? You know, with optic harvest and agrology, we want to have precision farming that allows us to grow crops faster so that we use less water and also deliver higher quality produce for consumers like us and the beauty is, farmers get better margins, right? So you mentioned profits earlier, but this really is about making an impact on people. It's making an impact on what our economy is, nothing without our people. So this is what we want to do. We don't necessarily need new technology, I mean, the world of sensors for agri tech exists, but elevate that with AI, right? Then you have a faster way of, again, building and developing farmers to even do more and be better at their jobs, right because it's real time. You know, it used to be that they would have to get a soil sample, send it to the lab, and, you know, two or three days later, you get the results. Now you have it real time, right and the technology and the rather, the information, right? Other farming countries, other farmers in the world, can now access this information, right? So you're not just talking about US sustainability, right? You're not talking about global sustainability, we're very excited about our agri tech focus again, it doesn't have to be new technology. Sensors have existed for the longest time, but add AI to that, and you've got a winning combination.

Ryan Miller 

Brilliant. So you know, we've talked a lot about your the investment thesis, the fund structure, the fees. Love to switch a little bit to the operational side, so we're innovating on a lot of areas. So one of the things that I loved, and I learned this from you, so I'm excited to talk about this. I don't think you're an investor in it, I know I'm not. I just want to make sure that I'm very clear that I don't hold anything in this company. It just sounds like a cool technology, and I learned it from Michelle. But how do tools like fast, F, A, A, S, T, how do those tools like FAAST or governance frameworks help to keep your operational costs low and transparent?

Michelle Urben

FAAST is a capability delivered by a company called Hatcher+, they're based out of Singapore, and it took a venture capitalist, it took an entrepreneur to build a strong AI driven administrative administration platform. We use it in three ways. It's our portfolio management tool, it's our client take on tool, and it's also our KYC tool. So some of the operational expenses are really around KYC, right and we focus on KYC. We want the best and the right investors to come into the fund, but we know that KYC is an expense. Typically, you would have used lawyers for this that cost a pretty penny per hour and our point is to make venture accessible to a larger population, right? So this is one of the costs that we're able to lower through using the fast platform of Hatcher+ and happy to connect you Ryan with that group. Again, it's just the ability of the fund and the smartness of funds to use these tools that are strongly powered by AI, let's take advantage of it, right? I think there still are pockets of investors that don't look at this, because these are services that are standard to venture but you know, there are providers, outsource providers, that are creating new standards, let's embrace these new standards. I won't say names, but you know, the other one that everybody uses, we all know didn't, did not, unfortunately, they didn't incorporate AI quickly enough into their process, which is why we discovered FAAST with the Hatcher+ group.

Ryan Miller 

Yeah, I'm pumped after you told me about it and your experience with it, I definitely want to get in touch with the founder of that. I'd love an intro, because that's really an important part. And back to those fees, right? So a lot of times you have these extra fees, but if you achieve efficiency, which is just good business, I don't tell you that, but for the sake of our audience, just another reminder is to say, as we're operationally excellent, that the fee burden on both sides goes down, and so we don't have to charge a lot of fees, which then you would assume increases the amount that goes away from OPEX and into the actual deal, enhancing returns, effective returns, for your LPs. And everybody's happy and one of those great ways, is to say, I actually don't need to tuck in those extra fees, which kind of, you know, it puts a little bit of tarnish on our reputation. And people are like, well, it's shocking that LPs. Don't want to be surprised with hidden costs. Imagine that. So, you know, you can avoid that by just adopting better tools. I absolutely love that.

Michelle Urben

And again, that's what allows the Synergos Fund to charge a management fee that encompasses all other fees we want to raise also very fast, so that we can keep investing in other companies. So very, very excited about the technology out there and I think what I like about your community at Making Billions is really this cross fertilization that's made possible, this cross pollination that is nurtured. And I think if we keep doing that, it just has this multiplicative impact on the investing world.

Ryan Miller 

Yeah, and with the investing world, you know, there's a lot of different LPs, and they like different things, and they're aligned to different things. Alignment is a big part, especially as you go from what I call quadruple F, friends, family, fools and followers, or, as I like to say, people come to my house for Thanksgiving. So outside of that, you start to move up to family offices and institutions and sovereign wealth funds, and you're really dealing with massive asset managers, massive LPs, and that's where alignment really starts to kick in, right? We go from saying, look at all this money that we can make you, and you're going to retire faster and,  right? That works at high net worth, but when you're going into institutions, alignment really starts to take a front seat to us as fund managers and the things we want to pitch. So what kind of LPs, or would you say are most aligned with your model and you know, how do you address some of those concerns?

Michelle Urben

You know, having been in the wealth management industry for, you know, almost 30 years, I can tell you this that the blurring between institutional and individual investors. Sorry, there's been a blurring of lines between institutional and individual investors. At the Synergos Fund, we treat every investor, we get to know them quite well in terms of what their capacity is. We also know Ryan that larger institutional investors, some of them, you know, yes, they have, they write bigger checks, but we also find that some of them are writing smaller checks. And then you have the individual investors, where we expect smaller checks, but actually believe in the mission so strongly that they're willing to allocate their capital, you know, every year, take a, you know, accept another, you know, a million dollars from you, right? And that, imagine that goes on for the life of the fund. You know, all of a sudden you have one investor that made that first minimum investment, but actually becomes a 20 million investor over time, and then has a successful exit, right, successful experience with the fund. So yes, where we need the biggest chunks of money are really around nuclear, for example, and these large projects, because we know that we'll need funding, not just from private investors, but also from the banks, right? So that's when, and again, that also falls, not necessarily in the fund, but the underlying companies. But again, as we are taking very meaningful stakes in these companies, we are going to be parting participative in those conversations. And please comment on this, Ryan, because I know you're expert at fundraising, I think be open to any possibility. My only wish for institutional investors is, you know, perhaps faster due diligence could be helpful. Six to nine months, we lose the opportunity to support these companies. And you know, we hate, we don't like having to walk away from great founders and their great technology, again, that are solving real issues that persist. So I think it's all investors, so we encourage all investors to come talk to us. We're very flexible. We still do cater to accredited investors, but you know, my wish is that a broader group of investors can access pension.

Ryan Miller 

I love what you said, and I do have a position on that, and it is this. I posted a YouTube poll that says, should you get the deal first and then the capital, or should you get the capital first and then the deal and the overwhelmingly, they said you got to get the deal first, before the capital. And I actually have a more of a contrarian position on that to echo what you asked is for me to comment on this. So I will, all right, you asked me to comment, I'm going to comment. So what I I think that it's better to get the capital first, raise the capital, and then go get the deals, which can be a bit of a challenge. And the bridge between that, because most people are like, you find a deal, then you go pitch the deal to investors to say, here's the deal, you want to throw some money at it. That makes sense and I did that too. There's nothing wrong with that model at all. Nothing wrong with that. But what I've found over the years is actually, instead of trying to pitch a deal, pitch your thesis, and you can raise to say, here's my Buy Box. This is the way I see the world's gonna work. We're gonna raise $500 million to go accomplish those that fit into our Buy Box and that agree with how the world works, right, like we need more impact investment. We have a dangerous base load of energy, we need nuclear, whatever that is. So you build your thesis and you go out and raise. That's typically the fund model. And I find that when you can go out, then they're just doing fund due diligence instead of fund due diligence, partner due diligence and deal due diligence. That's gonna take a long time, and you've experienced it, and so have I and you're like, I'm glad you checked all your boxes, but unfortunately, we don't have the deal anymore because it took nine months to get this done. So so how I was able to accelerate that, and for the listener, and I'm sure you'd agree, for our listeners around the world, is to say, before you go pitch the deal, and I'm not saying don't pitch the deal, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with it, but you do run the risk that you were talking about, Michelle, is that they may also want to do that too, and they probably should. But instead we analyze, we want to pitch it and pitch an investment thesis, get the capital, and then we go out more of you know, I know, I realize I'm pitching a blind pool type of model right now. That's okay. There's many models out there, but if we're able to and build that trust and show hey, you can count on us, we're going to come through. We're dead serious about this, we've got a great team. Pitch our thesis, raise off our thesis, and then go out and complete the thesis, to me that that accelerates it. And what better place than you find a deal and you got the money to do it right away, and then all you're the one who does deal due diligence, and it tends to be a smoother model. It's not without its turbulence, don't get me wrong. It's got its issues too, but that's why we're here, right, LPs are trusting that we're able to look around corners, get things done, run our operations efficiently, use AI if we have to. But whatever that is, that is part of the job. So I think pitching the thesis tends to help mitigate some of that counterparty risk, or due diligence, or whatever we want to call it, that risk of saying, if this takes too long, I might lose the deal. And that's not great for any of because we put a lot of time in finding this deal and courting the founders and assessing the technology, and then it's all gone because an institutional investor wants to do their homework. Well, it's fine, do your homework, but don't cause me problems in the process, please. So I think that the best bridge to comment at your request tends to be maybe, maybe pitching a thesis and pre raising with that thesis might help to put some salve on that burn a little bit. So if anyone out there is realizing it, I've been there, Michelle has been there. Maybe try that approach, or, you know, join a community that could teach you that, whatever that might be, so any anything you'd like to add to that?

Michelle Urben

I appreciate that insight, but, but again, you know, there could be situations where, yes, you try to foresee everything, and then something comes up, right, so we have to be able to flex. And this is why, right, once you identify the right companies, and again, the Synergos Fund, we're focusing on our first cohort of companies, I think that the conversation really did start with the mission, right, not with the proposed companies. So, you know, you know, you having me and inviting me to your show, or having me on your shows, is really helpful to us, to kind of emphasize, remind our LPs, and, in fact, invite others to look at that mission. But again, GPs, you know, we're in the tough seat, right? We have to, we have to flex too sometimes and sometimes, there are good deals that we just want to get into, and then you're, you're, you're a little bit on the back foot. But I think if you have the right mission, then it's easier and that mission is clear to the investing world. I think it's easier to go back to them and say, actually, this deal is here now. Would you like to join it? Join us and and if we can't get the quantum necessary, then we've done what we can right. It's just an it's an imperfect process to support transformative companies.

Ryan Miller 

Well, you would definitely know your tip of the spear on that one for sure. You know, and finding those trans then those transformative companies comes a lot down to how we source deals. And you know, some even argue that evergreen models, they risk complacency. How do you prove them wrong?

Michelle Urben  

We can't be complacent at the Synergos Fund, right because our model is continuum. It's not just an evergreen fund, right because, let's be clear, some evergreen funds essentially all it means is they're continually fundraising. It doesn't mean that they're supporting the companies at their, on their in different parts of their journey, right? The Synergos Fund, you know, if we're, if we come in at the scaling, we'll be there for commercializing. If we come in at seed stage, we're going to be there to your exit, right? So we just, we've built the strategy to be complacent for you, right? It's, it's, it's, it doesn't happen. It can't happen because, you know both from the founders, right? So founders, too have to elevate themselves or do things better, right? We have, we have in history, we've seen studies of founders that get just a chunk of money and fail because they ramp up expenses where it could have been done better by a kind of distribution or a deployment at different times, right? So again, complacency has existed, continues to exist in many of the investment strategies that we certainly have in our portfolios, but this structure really cannot exist in the Synergos Fund.

Ryan Miller 

Brian and how does legacy tie into all of that?

Michelle Urben 

We build. We want to build strong companies. You know, one of the stories that my co GP shares is that his grandfather has been receiving a particular dividend check from a large US company for many years and then never even actually check, cashes them out, but, like this, collects the checks, right? So we want to be a durable company, right, that's the legacy. We want to invest in companies that have a runway and that solve real issues. You know, we for that very reason, you know, we don't invest in SaaS, types of companies. We want to solve large industrial complexities.

Ryan Miller  

Excellent. So, you know, I'm curious, from what you're saying here is, what practical steps can other fund managers or family offices to what can they take to reduce that dependency on exits?

Michelle Urben

Identify the right companies, from the get go right again, as we've structured as a continuum fund, we are looking at different companies in different stages. And what is interesting is, though not all of them have the potential of cross pollinating, we find that different companies actually are supportive of each other. So allowing this diversified approach, we could have a one two punch, not just with one company, we're able to address issues in the world with two companies, right, that are partnering up or or that will position to large conglomerates or to other countries for implementation. So the building portfolios with underlying portfolio companies that actually have relevance to each other is, is magic, right? And we talked about it earlier, when you recycle spent nuclear fuel, you capture isotopes in the recycling process that is used by laser companies that treats cancer, right? So it's this, I don't want my kid makes potions, right, we're able again because we are supportive of founders. We want them to be successful, all of these insights from our founders, you know, we bring all of that to bear to the entire portfolio.

Ryan Miller  

Brilliant. This has been absolutely phenomenal. I've really enjoyed talking with you here, and so before we wrap things up, my final question for you is, what breakthroughs or global shifts do you think will shape capital flows in the next decade?

Michelle Urben

From a US perspective, I'm really hopeful that more investors can access private deals. So in fact, that's a those are the two things really is one regulation allow for non accredited investors who have access to advice, to access private companies, and I think private investments should and hopefully become mainstream, right? We talk a lot about our bankers, our financial advisors, underserving investors, we also need to help scale them up, right, so that they're not just looking at your Vanguards, they're not just looking at your ETFs, but they're actually balancing that portfolio with elements of risk that entail investments in private or venture funds. Private equity funds, because the relationship of a banker or a financial advisor and investor, really? I mean, we're taking advantage of that kind of not too smooth a relationship, right? But it should be that way, right, where there is that relationship, where there is risk taking, there's proper risk taking and investing to the values aligned to the values of the high net worth of the LP.

Ryan Miller 

Thank you for that. So before we wrap it up, final thoughts, anything else you'd want our listeners around the world to know? Any ways to contact you if they want to learn more, anything at all?

Michelle Urben 

Firstly, Ryan, thank you so much. I appreciate the work you do at Making Billions. I'm looking forward to engaging with you more and your broader community. And again, I invite you to Washington, DC. We'd love to have you here. We are creating an innovation ecosystem, building on an innovation system here. And I think your insights would be very, very valuable for the founders that are setting up here in the district. My List, for your listeners and for investors out there, and founders who are investors themselves, right is that you don't have to choose between returns and values, and this is what the Synergos Fund believes, believes that we talk about Conscious Capitalism all the time. We talk about legacy really simply put is we want you to we want to invest your money the way you want it invested. Because the meaning of the returns is not that it delivered 2x yes, we want you to get the 2x, 10x, 20x but we want you to achieve your desires or your expectations that someone's life has been elevated, right, farmers have better ways of farming. Again, it ultimately benefits us as consumers, this education is facilitated, right, that you now have, like, you know, education, a lot of it is now AI supported, right? What does, what, what's needed with AI is processing power, right? So, let's, let's bring other ways of increasing our base load energy. And you know, if you're, if you're interested in learning about us, please follow us on you know Synergos Fund, reach out to us on LinkedIn, and we'll get you know what we're happy to have a conversation on what we do. You know, our website is also a great place to see what our thesis and our portfolio is looking like. But with that said, Ryan, I am so thankful to you, let's help create more wealthy people, right, not just wealthier, not just wealthy people wealthier. Let's create a level of a better playing field as it comes to venture investing and frankly speaking, making an impact.

Ryan Miller 

 Brilliant, well said. So just to summarize everything we talked about, focus on operational excellence to improve your returns for your investors, while also building that positive legacy. The other thing is, focusing on late stage investments can help to increase liquidity without getting rid of durability, and finally, leverage tech and AI to improve that transparency and LP experience. You do these things, and you too will be well on your way in your pursuit of Making Billions. 

Ryan Miller 

Wow, what a show, I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Now, if you haven't done so already, be sure to leave a comment and review on new ideas and guests you want me to bring on for future episodes. Plus, why don't you head over to YouTube and see extra takes while you get to know our guests even better, and make sure to come back for our next episode, where we dive even deeper into the people, the process and the perspectives of both investors and founders. Until then, my friends, stay hungry, focus on your goals and keep grinding towards your dream of Making Billions.