Travel Devil – Guilt-free Sustainable Travel for Adventure Seekers

Flight Shame Debunked: Sustainable Travel Tips for When You Can’t Avoid Flying

• Clara Francken

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Is flying always bad? Should you feel guilty for boarding a plane? And most importantly, what can you actually do if flying is unavoidable?

Together, Clara and Lotte explore the reality behind flight emissions, compare flights vs train travel, and explain why aviation has such a large environmental impact, sometimes up to 30 times higher than electric trains.

But this episode is not about perfection, it’s about realistic, accessible sustainable travel.

You’ll learn:

  • What flight shame really means and why many travelers feel it
  • How flight emissions compare to trains, cars, and even cruise ships
  • Why reducing flights matters more than eliminating them completely
  • The truth about carbon offsetting (and why airline options can be misleading)
  • Practical tips to make your flights more sustainable
  • How to travel consciously even after you land

From choosing direct flights and flying economy, to supporting local businesses and rethinking how we travel, this episode gives you practical, non-judgmental advice for traveling more responsibly.

Because sustainable travel isn’t about being perfect, it’s about making better choices, step by step.

About the guest:
Lotte is the creator behind The Sustainable Travel Guide, where she shares tips and insights on how to travel more consciously without giving up meaningful experiences.


light shame explained · how to fly sustainably · sustainable flying tips · how to reduce carbon footprint travel · is flying bad for the environment · eco travel tips 2026 · alternatives to flying Europe · train travel vs plane emissions · short haul flights impact · how to travel more sustainably · climate conscious travel · green travel tips · aviation climate impact · should you feel flight shame

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SPEAKER_01

Welcome to Travel Devil. I'm your host, Clara Franken. And in a world full of masterism, we're here to talk about unconventional travel. Let's get into it. Oh wow, you travel by plane? Aren't you supposed to be sustainable? Interesting. Remind me how you get to work every single day? Alone? In your car? Today we're talking about flight gym and how you can make your next journey more sustainable even if you're flying. But we're also going to get into flights versus train travel, carbon offsetting, if you travel by plane, when are the best times to do so? What are the hidden emissions? And how can we improve plane travel overall? Today I'm talking to Lotta Smith, the person behind the blog, the sustainable travel guide, who you can also find on Instagram. Lotta has been traveling sustainably for over six years now, and she's going to talk about why we should reduce the amount of flights we take. Lotte, welcome to Travel Devil. Yeah, thank you for having me. Would you be able to introduce yourself with your own words and maybe tell me how you got into sustainable travel?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I'm Lotte. I'm originally from the Netherlands, but a couple of years ago I moved to the UK where I'm living now. For me, getting into sustainable travel was a really sort of gradual change. Um, so I got a little bit involved politically, um, trying to campaign for like greener policies and animal welfare, and trying to like incorporate sustainability in all aspects of my life. Um, so like first going vegetarian, then vegan, um, buying less clothing, buying uh more clothing secondhand when I need to, um, all those kinds of things. And then at some point, the realization hit like this should also apply to the way I travel. Um and gradually that just became like a huge interest and passion for me. So over the years, I've been yeah, trying to do better and better in terms of uh sustainable travel, and that's also the message I want to promote to other people. There's lots of small things you can do, um, and you don't have to change everything about how you travel in one go.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, that's beautiful, and it's always nice to see that it's something graduate and it's not like one day we woke up and now we want to live sustainably. Um, so today we're going to talk about flights, but I'm wondering when you travel, what is the mode of transport you usually use?

SPEAKER_00

So I mostly use trains, um, like both short distance ones and long distance. Uh, but I also really like taking ferries, especially if they're overnight, because it's quite an efficient way to travel. You just travel while you sleep. Um, and uh I don't get seasick or anything, so being on a boat is absolutely fine. So those are the two main ones.

SPEAKER_01

And you live in the UK right now, but you're from the Netherlands. So when you're going back and forth between the UK and the Netherlands, what is the way you would travel?

SPEAKER_00

I would normally take the Eurostar, uh, unless I want to bring my bike, and then I'll take the ferry from uh Hull to Rotterdam. Um, because you can take your bike on there, or you can also take cars, but either drive. Um, so yeah, it's nice to have multiple options. There's also the very cheap overnight flix bus, but I've come to a point where I'd rather pay a little bit more to be more comfortable on the train.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I can imagine that the flix bus is um intense for the overnight journeys. Uh I'm not a biggest fan either. It's very con convenient and very cheap though. But uh when you want a good night's sleep, I I can imagine that the other options you have are way better. So, what about taking the plane? Do you sometimes still fly by plane?

SPEAKER_00

I try not to. So, with it in Europe, I uh don't monstate any flights, and I've gone over five years without flying. Um, but then last October, me and my husband went to the Canary Islands and we made it all the way there by ferry and train, which is a long journey, but it was very fun. Uh, but we did have a one-way flight back.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I understand, and that's I think first of all, congratulations to be able to be flight-free for five years. I think um, for the typical European traveler, this is quite the accomplishment. And I feel like sometimes people would want to shame people who travel sustainably for then taking a flight. So, how was it for you to fly after five years?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I hated it. I already hated it, yeah. Um, just the whole experience like in the airports, the way they tried to rip you off and make you pay more for like luggage or um not like pre-registering your uh your check-in or whatever, like everything about it is just trying to like extract more money from you. And I'm like, I don't want to spend any money on this flight because I don't support airplanes, so yeah, and just the like it was uncomfortable, and they're really being really fussy about where you could keep your luggage, sort of like within the plane, and it just yeah, everything about it was pretty horrible.

SPEAKER_01

Oh man, okay. And how about flight shame? Did did you ever feel shamed for the fact that you took the took the plane, especially with your blog that you're talking about sustainable travel all the time, and then there you are on your flights?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so for me it's not really about what other people think of it, but I think I've sort of internalized the flight shame. Uh, so it's more about me not being able to justify it to myself. And I think in this case, um I I could, because it was a really long way to travel, um, to give you an ID, the ferry we took from Spain to Tenerife took 46 hours, and it was really fun, it was a great experience, but we just couldn't fit that travel time in the amount of holidays we had, and it was also just a bit of a compromise between me and my husband as to where we were going and how we were getting there. So, in this sense, like, yeah, I think it it just reinforces the message of like try to reduce the amount of flying, but don't set unrealistic goals of never flying again. Uh, because I think Eugene just put too much pressure on herself. Um, but to go to go back to like your initial question about like flight shame, I think there's two sides to it. So like it's often people who are not trying to be more sustainable that blame other people for being a hypocrite. Um, and I think that's often just like a problem they have with themselves. So yeah, it's it's like it's often people who still eat meat, who take multiple flights a year, who like love their car, and they'll be on the internet judging you for taking one flight in five years, and it's like, well, I'm trying to do my very best, and you're doing absolutely nothing. Um, so Hugh is the real hypocrite here. But on the other hand, I think sometimes uh a bit of like change can be helpful to change people's behavior because you just build up this uh thing called cognitive dissonance where you have like two conflicting ideas in your head, which is on the one hand, I want to be more sustainable and I care about the planet, and on the other hand, oh, I take flights. And if the sort of distance between these two ideas becomes too large, then people are more likely to change their behavior. So sometimes a little bit of flight shame can help. Um, but again, I think it's more important if the flight shame is sort of something you can't justify to yourself rather than not being able to justify it to other people.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I get what you mean. I guess also for me to open up a little bit on my flight journey. I tried a lot to travel without taking the plane, but I was never able to go five years since I've been a solo traveler without taking the plane, especially because people are so used to taking the plane, and also for me, I'm it's in my family we'd like to travel together, and my family would like to go to Greece every year, and it's just a long trip. I've done it a couple of times by public transport, but sometimes it's nice to take nice to take the flight back, just like you did, because it does take multiple days, and if I'm traveling alone, because everyone else is flying back, and there I am on my solo trip back home, um, or to go there one way or the other. I try to do sustainably, but the other way I'm still flying. So I also sometimes like actually this summer I struggled a lot with it because I was thinking like, how can I have an account where I share so much about sustainable travel, so much about train travel, but then I'm flying, and I understand what you say. It's like something we criticize sometimes about ourselves because we know it's like within our bubble of sustainable people, if you could call it like that. We all don't want don't would wouldn't love that. Um and it's also like, yeah, I don't really want to share, like that I'm going back by plane. And I know some creators who also are much into sustainability who take the plane but never post anything about it because either they're ashamed of it to announce it themselves, or they just don't want a commentary because it's a seen so negative. Yeah, it's just so tricky sometimes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And also, like as a a travel creator and having your your blog and your your social media, you do also want to be transparent because um, like the example you give, I think that's a really good compromise. If you want to go on your family holiday, but you don't want to fly, so you just take a long-way flight and go back by training. That's a really like realistic approach to travel. Um, and if everyone was able to do this, that would have a massive impact. And in that sense, I think it's always better to have a lot of people do sustainable travel imperfectly than a few people never flying again. I think it's about getting a massive change of reduction um rather than a few people like throwing their life upside down to to be perfect and to please the people on the internet. So um, yeah, I think you gave a really good example there.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you for saying that. And do you think for you, were you ever how to say, did you ever um get conversations about this with your family members um or friends to have like a debate about this, or is this something that most of them also see and they're totally fine with you doing because it doesn't really uh bother them?

SPEAKER_00

I think because it was quite a gradual change, like most of my friends and family are really understanding and they support it as well. And obviously, the distance between the Netherlands and the UK is very small, and there's multiple sustainable transport options, so it's really not an issue uh to see family or for them to come over here. Um, but yeah, I have been quite clear to some people like if you want to visit me, you're not welcome if you're flying because it's too short of a distance. And most people, most people do understand.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, that's good, that's good. Um, actually, strong opinion there. I love that you're telling people that they shouldn't visit if they're flying. You're like, you're not welcome on my couch. Okay, great. But you have flown in the past as well, right? Between London and Amsterdam. How was that like?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so this was um this was just before COVID. So I was uh a student, and as part of my degree, I had to do an internship, and you don't really like get um holidays or annual leave during an internship. Uh, but one of my friends had been living in London for a while, and um I really wanted to visit her. Um and I only had like a weekend, so um I felt really bad about it, but I booked the flights from Amsterdam to London and back, and I felt really terrible about it. And I was like, what am I doing? This is ridiculous, but at the same time, like I was obviously limited in time and money. But then um, all the way back, there was a big storm, so the flight back got cancelled, and I was so relieved. I was like, Oh, I can now just take a bus back and I don't have to get on this flight. Um, and that was sort of a bit of a tipping point for me. Like, okay, I just don't want to do this kind of ridiculous short haul flights anymore.

SPEAKER_01

Is it still more expensive to travel by bus than to take the plane? Because one of the big issues, especially in the UK, I recently had an episode about the UK as well, about train travel across Scotland and the UK to Scotland, and one of the big issues appeared to be the price of taking the train. And obviously, with the Eurostar, they're the only ones crossing the channel, so they will also be able to up the prices as much as they want, I guess, because they're the only ones offering this train. But is a bus a good solution for this?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the bus is really cheap. Um, it's probably cheaper than most flights, but um again, it's a bit more uncomfortable, especially because the the flix bus between the Netherlands and London is overnight. Uh, I just like cannot sleep on the bus. Um so it's it's a bit of a trade-off. Like, yeah, that's definitely cheaper, but it's a bit less comfortable and it takes longer. Um but yeah, that is also fine. And with the Eurostar, I think booking in advance helps a lot. Um, signing up to their newsletter as well, because they will announce when they uh release the new tickets, which are then obviously still cheaper than if you wait and some of them sell out. So yeah, I guess it takes a bit of planning, but at the same time, like people will uh look at skyscanner every day uh for a couple of weeks to find the cheapest flight. So you can just do the same with trains and you'll probably find some reasonably affordable options.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it totally agree. Okay, let's talk about planes right now. Because why are we shamed to take a flight? Why are we shaming ourselves? Why is there even this concept? Because planes have some big emission. And I want to talk about the carbon emission of planes, and I was wondering, could you could you tell me compared to a train, how much do planes actually emit? Is it really such a big problem, or is this more of a talk and then actually the reality is different?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, really good question. Um, and it's I think this is gonna be a bit of a long answer because the uh calculation of emissions is very complicated. The main problem is there's no standardized calculation. Um, so every uh sort of research into uh flight emissions can use a different calculation method. Uh, like even every um airline can use their own calculations. So it's really, really hard to get a definitive number on the emissions. So, how the carbon emissions of flights are usually calculated is the overall emissions of the plane on that flight divided by the number of passengers. And you can do the same with trains. So, how much does a train emit on a certain journey and divide that by the number of passengers, and those things you can compare. However, there's obviously a lot more things you can you can add to this calculation. There's a lot more factors uh that contribute to the overall climate impact. Um, so for example, when you look at uh at planes, you can also instead of just calculating it per passenger, you can also calculate it per passenger per kilometer. Or um you can uh think about the time for fuel that's used and like is it partly bio-based or not? You can look at aircraft efficiencies, so not only the efficiency of how they burn the fuel, but also aerodynamics. Um, and then there's other sort of hidden emissions uh like water vapors and nitrogen oxide, which is sometimes part of the overall sort of emission calculation, but sometimes emission calculation is only carbon dioxide. Um, so there's so many different variables you can add to this formula that it's really hard to get uh a straightforward answer. And then a big other complicating factor is the effect of carbon dioxide in the air compared to ground level, can cause up to two and a half times as much warming. So even though the emissions um like could be similar between a plane and a car, the effect of the plane emissions is higher, according to some research. Um, so this is also not always taken into consideration when when calculating these emissions. But if you look at a uh short haul flight and compare it to a train, and again, there you also have to make the distinction whether it's like an old diesel train or a new electric train that runs on renewable energy. Uh, so if you compare a short haul flight to a diesel train, the flight um emits between four and seven times as much uh CO2 um as the diesel train per passenger. Uh, but if you compare to an electric train, the emissions of a short haul flight are um up to 30 times as much. So yeah, it does make a big difference.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and when we talk about short haul flights, what is the distance we're talking about? Again, this is not a standardized definition. Um yeah, wow, this is it it's complicated. It seems like everybody has their own ways of calculating it, which kind of make it makes it tricky. But the numbers you showed already, or you say um if it's like 30 times or even three or four times, it's still times uh more than the the train, I guess. So it still has a big impact. And I wonder you were mentioning the what was it, the carbon dioxide in the air that is uh doubling the emission of the plane when it's in the air?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so the the emission is the same, um, but because of how the atmosphere works. And like I'm not a I'm not into like physics or chemistry, so this is a very basic description, but the emission in like certain height levels in the atmosphere causes more warming than it does if it happens at ground level.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, okay, I see. So it's actually the warming that's doubling. Um okay, and then is that the same thing as we then see these little clouds, these trails behind the plane? Is that what you're talking about? Or is this something different?

SPEAKER_00

Um, I think they they are related. Um, but the the vapor trails, the contrails are also quite complex, um, because like the the the warming effect that they have depends on where in the atmosphere, um so because of like the different layers, um, but also the um just the baseline uh temperature of certain parts of the atmosphere differs. Um the effect also differs depending on where the flight is. So this is like really complicated and something they can take into account when calculating flight routes, but as a traveler, You have no influence on this. Like you can't really decide to take a different flight route, and then it will have less impact. Like that that's almost impossible to do as an individual, I think.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. No, but I feel like even the knowledge around this is still a bit lacking, I guess, because just the fact that it's not taken into account in a regular carbon emission calculation from flights, that there's no standardized way of calculating it kind of comes through this conversation as well. So why is there not like one standardized ways to where you to calculate the carbon emission and every flight can be looked at in the same way and can really be compared? But then everybody has their own calculations, and then most of them still don't take into account what you were talking about, the like the warmth that is being caused in the heights or the trails you now touched on. So if those are not even taken into account but still have an impact, then it's so tricky to really understand the full picture of what is the issue of flights. But at the same time, flights are already now known to be bad for the environment, and this doesn't put them in a better light.

SPEAKER_00

Definitely. And then like these are all still things you can sort of capture in numbers, right? But there's also effects that you can't really capture in a number. So things like uh noise pollution to people who live around uh airports, like you can't really quantify the impact it has on their lives and their mental health. So there's a lot of like extra negative effects, uh, side effects really that you can't calculate as objectively.

SPEAKER_01

Hmm, actually smart. I didn't even think of that as well. But yeah, true. Even for the animals. Oh, definitely, yeah. So you briefly compared the flights to the trains. Could you one more time like give me an overview of some numbers there?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so some studies find that um the emission per person can be like 90% lower if you take a train journey compared to a short haul flight journey. So that's obviously a massive, massive difference. But if you want to sort of like rank different modes of transportation, there's actually one that's worse than flying, and that's cruise ships. Um the emission per person for cruise ships is is even higher than for planes. Um, and also driving a petrol car over a long distance with just one person in the car can be worse than a flight. And then you're probably looking at like mid-hole distance. Um, so I think it's good to put it into perspective a little bit.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, thank you for that. It actually is uh kind of interesting to hear that as well, because it's not like all negative, there's it depends on how many people are driving in a car, it depends on uh many other things. Okay, interesting. And so when you would compare a distance, because I always say okay, so this is my rule of thumb. So if I can travel somewhere, and I say like this as a European, and I can travel somewhere within thousand kilometers, I do not agree that I should take a plane. What is your opinion on that? Is the thousand kilometer thing something you also stand by? Uh, do you did you find anything else in because you named a lot of numbers? Is this is there some data backing backing my decision?

SPEAKER_00

Or yeah, there definitely is, yeah. So I think indeed um like domestic flights, big no, no reason to fly within a country, and other short haul flights where there is a findable alternative, I fully agree. Um, and whether you say, Oh, it's any uh flights that's two hours or less, or whether you say it's a thousand kilometers, doesn't really matter, but the basic idea of like avoiding short haul flights is uh really important because what causes the most emissions when taking an airplane is the takeoff and the landing. So it's sort of more worth it, this big emission, if you have a longer amount of time in the sky, which is relatively fuel efficient. Um, so yeah, short haul flights have a higher emission per kilometer than mid-distance flights. Um, long-haul flights, on the other hand, are also less efficient than mid-distance ones, because the uh length that they have to travel is so far that they need to have more fuel on board, and that weighs a lot. So, because of the weight of the fuel, you can have less passengers and less luggage, and therefore, it's again less efficient, sort of per person if you calculate the emissions. Um, so with short haul flights, you can probably uh replace them by different modes of transportation, and with long haul flights, I think you should question like, is it really necessary that you travel there? And is there another destination closer to where you live where you can also have a really good time, but that won't uh cause such a big emission?

SPEAKER_01

Okay. And so we talked about the big issue of flying. But what if I still say, like, okay, but I want to fly, I need to take this plane, there's no other way to get to my destination. Is carbon offsetting a solution?

SPEAKER_00

Um, yeah, so the I think the intentions behind people who use carbon offsetting are good. Uh, the intentions behind uh airlines offering carbon offsetting schemes isn't also good, it's basically greenwashing. So, what you quite often see is if you book a flight, then there is a tick box somewhere at the end where it's like, oh, for 52 cents you can offset your emissions. And it's like 52 cents, really. Um, that's not gonna be enough. And also, it's really like it's not transparent where this money is going. Um, and even if they do mention what project they're donating to or how they're gonna use the money, um, it's still not clear like what percentage of this 52 cents, because this is a real example I've seen, um, it is actually going to that project. And like maybe a bit of it is taken off as like an admin fee. And obviously, if they donate it somewhere, like how much of the money is then going into the thing they are supporting, and how much of it is just going to go to like their CEO's salary. Um, so there's a lot of issues around compensation schemes offered by airlines. So if you want to do um anything in the way of like offsetting your personal emissions, uh, there's lots of websites where you can calculate what your emissions would be. And then I would advise find an organization that protects nature, preferably somewhere where you live, because a lot of these like tree planting schemes and nature protection, they're all sort of far away. If like if you live in Europe, it will often be like, oh, protect the Amazon or um like plant trees in Africa, whereas actually like we need more trees and we need more nature protection in Europe as well. So try to find a local uh non-profit organization or charity that protects already existing nature and make a direct donation to them.

SPEAKER_01

I really love that tip, that's really nice. Um, in general, though, do you think it's a good idea to go tree planting? Um, because I've heard mixed things about it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so planting trees is obviously like a well-intended thing. However, it takes quite long for a tree to become fully grown and have like its maximum capacity of carbon dioxide it can take from the air and turn into oxygen. So it's much more efficient and effective in terms of yeah, capturing carbon dioxide to keep existing trees alive. So I'm very much in favor of trying to protect nature that already exists rather than planting new trees. So planting new trees is is very important still because so many trees have been cut down over human history. But if you're purely looking at what will have the most impact, then it's protecting what's already there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, okay, interesting. I want to share a little story from my side on that part as well, because I was in Portugal uh a year and a half ago, and I participated in a project, and we also talked about planting trees. We actually went tree planting, which was kind of fun, and you felt I felt like, oh, I'm doing something good here, and I'm planting these trees with my hands, and then uh in the afternoon we went and saw a place where there was already the tree planting happened 20 years ago, so we would see the effect of it today, of what we had just done now. So if somebody would go back to the place where I was planting trees in 20 years, they would see the effect. So I was basically going fast forward in time within the day in the afternoon, seeing this piece of nature with all of these trees which are planted, didn't realize that the biodiversity was super low there. So I don't know if I'm the person that's supposed to be saying, like, yes, this is a good or this is 100% bad, because I'm sure there's different scenarios in which one is better than the other. But from what I saw, I would also uh underline everything you said because it did seem that one part of this old forest that we went to visit, which was partially in a it was in a valley, so one part of the valley had been just reforested in a way that they took away the whole soil and they put in the new trees, with sometimes another alternative tree in between, but mostly it was the same tree. So it's monoculture, every tree is in a specific line. You would sometimes have like a small bush in between to make sure like diseases don't spread too quickly, but still it's very much monoculture, and then the other side of the valley, they decided not to do anything with it because they were like, Yeah, okay, let's just keep it this way, we'll see what happens. We don't have the money to invest in it anymore right now. I think that was part of the issue. They just let it happen, and nowadays, if you walk in the same valley, you see on the one side, you see the beautiful trees that have been planted. But when you look at the soil and you look around and you listen to the nature, you hear less birds, you see less moist, there's less biodiversity in general, and there's still plastic laying around, by the way, from when they were planting trees 20 years ago. Luckily, when we planted trees, we didn't use plastic, and I feel like more and more people are stopped stopping to do this. But this is like trash still laying around in this forest part, and then you would go to the other side of the forest, almost impossible to walk through because it's so full of nature, many different trees. You could see that they were burned in the past because you saw it on the oh my English, how do you call the this the bark? The bark, like the bottom of the tree. Oh, the trunk. So you would see it, yeah. The trunk, thank you. Okay, so you would see it on the trunk of the tree, you would still see that it was burnt, but then this beautiful tree grew from it, and you would hear the birds chirp like so loudly, it was immense the difference you would see in biodiversity, and just in the feeling the you could feel the moist in the air almost walking through this, and this was like five or ten minutes walking distance from each other, just two parts of the same what used to be the same forest. And that's just an example. Probably the way the sun shines on the valley also has an effect on everything, but still I was kind of shocked, and I was almost like, why did we go tree planting this morning? What was in it? Like, I felt so good. Why am I feeling so bad now?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, it's just like humans can't engineer nature, like as much as they try. And I think with yeah, like with planting trees, like you say, it's so complicated to make sure uh it's native trees, there's the right ratio of different species. Um, and you basically need like a team of very good ecologists to set up a plan for biodiversity, whereas a lot of these initiatives indeed might be just like, oh, let's plant some trees.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm sure there's really good initiatives you can go to as well. So I loved your idea of saying, okay, let's let's just contribute to something good. And I feel like people, including me, by the way, I'm including myself here, are very lazy because for the flights that I took, I did not do a carbon offsetting and I did not go to another company, and I should maybe. So if you have any like maybe concrete tips, like do you have any websites where you think, okay, so this is a place you could go to to donate or to look at? That would be very helpful for me, even because once we're like we booked a flight, we're a bit like, oh, okay, well, I've booked a flight, okay. Fuck it, I did it. Okay, so I'm trying to do my best for the rest. So I didn't really take that into consideration that I should or could uh also decide by myself to donate somewhere else. If you have any tips there, that would be more than welcome.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I actually have a um a guide which is much broader than that, about like if you're flying, what are all the different things you can do to sort of make it as sustainable as possible? Um, and that also talks about carbon offsetting and how to approach it with some tips of like what to look for. Okay, and that's a a blog on your on your page? Yeah, it's a it's a PDF guide that's linked for my blog, but I can make sure the link is included. Um, would you mind sharing some of the details from this PDF already? So, as I said, like if you fly, choose a bit distance flight. That's one of them. Also, a very important one because the takeoff and the landing um cost the most admissions, it's very important to always choose a direct flight when possible. And I would say it's it's so worth traveling by train or by car to a different airport if that means we can take a direct flight. So say you want to go somewhere from Brussels, but it means you would have a layover, then by all means take a train to Amsterdam or to London or to Düsseldorf and get a direct train, direct flight from there. Another tip which which you very nicely illustrated is okay, if it's a bit far and you're struggling for time or you're struggling for money, take a one-way flight and make your way back or make your way there by other modes of transportation. That's the good one. If you're a little bit more ambitious, then I think that's the a really nice way to do it. And another one is always choose economy class because business class means you take up more space in the airplane, which means less passengers, so a higher emission per person overall, and it's much more efficient if you can have as many people as possible on the plane.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, can I ask you something on that part? Because maybe I might be the the devil's advocate here, but this this podcast is called travel devil, so let's go with it. If I'm sitting in the economy or business class, like that's not gonna change the amount of seats that the plane has. Like if I want to sit and have more space, or if I want to sit and have economy class, it's still this like the space is if I'm not taking it, someone else is taking it, or is that a ridiculous uh excuse?

SPEAKER_00

No, I see what you mean. But the thing is, whatever you pay for is something you reinforce. So if you pay for business class seats, you're basically saying there should be more business class seats. If you book a seat on the train, you're saying there should be more trains. So if no one books business class seats anymore, then new airplanes won't have as many of them. Um so it's about what you're reinforcing.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, yeah, no, I love this answer. Actually, very, very smart, thoughtful answer. Because I have been like told this question because me being vegetarian or something, and people would be like, Yeah, but the meat is in the supermarket anyway. Yeah, but I still don't want to eat it. But the way you just formulated it, yes. Oh god, okay, yeah, very beautiful answer. I will I will copy that and and paste it in my next conversation.

SPEAKER_00

By all means, yeah. I think in that sense it's a little bit of a paradox because especially in the meat, like if people just like the if the whole world suddenly stopped eating meat, then a lot of it would be wasted, and that seems very wrong, but that that's the only way to decrease the production in the long term. So even though, like with flights, if no one is booking the business flights, then there will be empty seats on the plane, and that's less sufficient. But in the long term, it means they won't have as many business class seats anymore. So it is a bit paradoxical, but I think it's always good to remind yourself that whatever you pay for is what you're reinforcing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, that's very, very true. Um, and is there anything else we should keep in mind when we're flying anyway?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so a really big one that I feel quite passionately about is trying not to fly at night. So try to, if you book a flight, try to have it take off and land after eight in the morning and before 10 at night. So, why that's this is because of the noise problems to do with the takeoff and landing. Um, so studies have actually found that people who live close to airports are much more likely to be hospitalized for any types of issues but coming from disrupted sleep. It has such a big effect on people's lives, and again, this is one of the things that's very hard to sort of measure or like put into a number. Um, but yeah, it's it's a massive issue, and it's also really sad because there's people who live close to an airport who are suffering from these late night flights, but they can't sell their house because nobody wants to live there. And then you can say, Oh, well, why did you buy the house in the first place? Well, the airport has expanded while they live there, so these people are just stuck, like they can't move anywhere because they can't sell their house, and when they moved there, the airport wasn't as close to them, and yeah, it's just such a such a horrible thing to imagine living next to an airport and just not being able to sleep and there being no way out.

SPEAKER_01

So, what would you define as a night flight? At what time can I start flying again during the day? And what is the latest time I should land?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so like I said, I would say between 8 in the morning and 10 at night. I think that's reasonable. And luckily, more and more airports are closing curfews, so they don't have flights that land or take off after these times. But sadly, there is also routes from certain places in Europe to the US where because of the time zones and the length of the flight, like there's not really a way around it. Um, but if you can, yeah, this is one of the things where you can really make an impact on people's lives by changing the type of flight you take. And not only people but also animals are affected. So, like sleep patterns of of bats and insects are also disrupted by nighttime flights. So, yeah, I think it's the thing not many people realize, but it has such a massive impact.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, interesting. That's crazy. Okay, so now if we fly anyway and we get to our destination, is there any other way to leave the place we visit a bit more or to visit the place we visit a bit more consciously?

SPEAKER_00

I think that's a really good question because obviously transport is only one part. Of sustainable travel, and I think it's the one that gets the most attention, and therefore sometimes also discourages people a little bit because it's like, oh, if I can't swear off flying, never fly again, then I can't really travel sustainably. But actually, there's a lot more you can do. I think another very big one is accommodation. So obviously, you can look for like certifications of accommodations that implement sustainable measures in terms of like water use, how they separate their rubbish, the energy efficiency, and all of those things. Like that's one part of it. Um, but I think the more important part is where the money you pay for an accommodation goes to. So even though a lot of chain hotels have like all these green key certifications and whatnot, they don't really contribute much to the destination. So if you if you stay at an international chain hotel, then your money leaves that place because it goes to the international sort of business, and the owners will be foreign people. Um, it depends, like sometimes they do employ locals, but sometimes a lot of the staff are also international. So all of the money you pay towards this accommodation that is in your destination, the money actually leaves. So if you look for accommodation, like anything small scale owned by local people, is the way to go. As long as it's also not an Airbnb. Um, in places that have a lot of tourists, to say, like Amsterdam, Barcelona, Paris, it's such an issue that all these Airbnbs are basically taking up space where locals could live. And oftentimes they're also like rented out by people who don't even live in that country. So accommodation is a really hard one, I find personally. But it does also make a big impact on whether your travel is something positive for your destination or whether it's actually negative for the residents. But taking it even a bit broader, it's like with everything you do. If you're booking a tour, if you're going to a restaurant, if there's any sort of other activity you do, make sure it's locally owned and locally run. So it creates jobs and it keeps the money in the local economy of the destination.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I really wish there was a way even for like Airbnb and um other applications to know where the owners are based. Because I love using Airbnb. I'm such a fan of Airbnb. But then, yeah, obviously it's not nice if I would be staying at somebody's house who doesn't even, I don't know, staying somewhere in Germany and they don't even live in Germany. They they just bought the place and they're renting it out. And in my naive mind, I I don't assume that those are the people. I'm assuming you live in the same city, but you're renting this out because it's like your sidekick. That's my assumption of all Airbnb um owners, you know. But maybe that's not reality.

SPEAKER_00

No, I think a really good, a really good way around this is to always book a room instead of the whole accommodation. And try to yeah, try to look for Airbnbs with a live-in host. So like you take off one of the bedrooms, but the host is sleeping elsewhere in the house. Like that's absolutely fine.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I love that as well. And I think it's so nice because then you still have like a bit of a contact person as well. So I'm I'm a big fan of those kind of stays as well. Okay, nice. And is there anything else we can do? I'm thinking on top of my mind, maybe like when I go to a beach, for example, I would like to leave the beach a bit cleaner than when I arrived. Is there anything similar in that mindset that you would have as like little actions you could do, like an afternoon or one hour doing something to improve the environment you're visiting?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think litter picking is a really great example because you can do it anywhere, you don't need any equipment for it, and it's a very sort of tangible possible impact. Also, because as they say, like litter attracts litter, so the more rubbish people see on the streets, the more likely they're to like throw something on the street as well. Uh so it has like a compound effect. So I think that's a really good one. But also things like where you buy your souvenirs, or if you do like a workshop, you pay towards like artists or crafters at your destination, and it makes like a real impact for them because they can make their living off this, and you have a very nice experience or a very nice token from the place to take home. So, yeah, these are kind of small things you can do, as well as just like walking and cycling and taking public transport at the destination rather than renting a car or using taxis.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. And when we're looking back at everything we talked about right now, I feel like all of us travelers are never fully sustainable. What do you think is currently the issue that most travelers have? And what would you propose as the best solution against that?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I think indeed, like you say, travel can never be entirely sustainable. But this applies to life in general. Like, you can never be 100% sustainable. It's about trying to make as much of a positive rather than negative impact in everything you do. And I think the main problem is travel, is people's mindset behind it. Um, so people travel to like escape their normal life and like escape work and sort of have this almost like utopia for a week, which is very sort of extractive from a destination because you're going there to feel better, you're going there to have a nice time, but it's not at all about what you're bringing. Um, and sort of linked to this is very much the sort of quantity over quality. Like people want to go as far as possible, see as many countries as possible, and like it's not really a holiday if you haven't left your country, and like all of these sort of mindsets make travel unsustainable. It's yeah, I would I would always recommend try to travel sort of slower, see less places, but see them more in-depth and like really experience the culture and meet people. Um, but also you don't have to go far to have a good time. There's probably cities or nature areas an hour from where you live that you've never been to. Like, why wouldn't you go there? Why do you have to book a flight to this island far away? Okay, maybe the weather is a little bit better, but like there's so many nice experiences very locally as well. So it's really, really about changing the mindset of what travel is and what travel needs to be.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I guess COVID taught us all that we can travel a bit closer to home as well. If there's one good thing about it, is that I even saw my own home country for the first time a bit better. I went out of Flanders. So wow, what a big deal! Because normally, like I'm living in the Flemish part uh of Belgium, or I'm born there, and when we would go to travel, we would also go like far away. Like my family and I, we would do a lot of road trips, would be mostly by cars, we would go to Sweden, Norway, or we would go to down to Italy, Spain. Closest would be France. But within our own country, or going up to the Netherlands, going up to Germany, like never happens. Like maximum for a museum or something, but not like really a thing. There's so much like people are visiting your country. Why aren't you? You know?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, okay, I love that. Thank you so much. Do you have any final words of wisdom you want to share, maybe? Because one more thing that I do think is still very active within me is what is it called? There's a word for this climate anxiety, and I feel like we all just want to be so perfect or as good as possible. I mean, we all just but we're also kind of setting ourselves sometimes up for disappointment if you're like, oh, I don't want to fly, but then I'm flying anyway, so I'm like, okay, well, I didn't accomplish what I wanted, and then there's the anxiety X aspect of it that's like really growing within young people. For some reason, older people are less attracted to this issue. Some people still are, but I just wonder like, do you have any like words you want to share on that note?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think to do with climate anxiety, you can go two ways. You can become sort of apathic and not do anything because it doesn't make a difference, or you can try and say, okay, maybe maybe the world is going towards a bad place, but at least I've tried to make an improvement, however big or small. And in that sense, I think it's really important to set realistic goals. So if we come back to flying, you can say, okay, I will only take two flights a year instead of five. Or I will from now on, if I travel in Europe, always take the train, or I will try to go one way by public transport and one way flying. Or you can say, for every flight I take, I will donate 15% of the costs to a nature organization, or even an organization that campaigns against flying and airport expansion. You know, there's so many things you can do, but you'd have to find what works for you and make sure it was realistic.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for that. Thank you so much for being a guest on today's episode. Would you like to tell me where my listeners could go ahead and find more content from your site?

SPEAKER_00

First of all, thanks for having me, and thanks for listening. I am on Instagram at the Sustainable Travel Guides, but there's like a dot in between all the words. And the sustainable travelguides.com is where you can find my blog. And yeah, I'll make sure the links are included in this episode. And I hope you learned something, and I hope it's been a positive encouragement to uh try and make a small change.

SPEAKER_01

This was Travel Devil brought to you by me, your host Clara Franken. Thank you so much for listening. If you want to continue the conversation or suggest any future guests, you can go to my Instagram at Clara Franken. Take care, and I will see you next Thursday.

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Clara Francken

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