Future of Vet Med with MicroRNA diagnostics (Dr. Eve Hanks)

In this episode of Vet Life Reimagined, Dr. Eve Hanks, BVM&S, CertAVP (EM), PhD, FRCVS, takes us inside the emerging world of microRNA diagnostics, a technology that could transform how veterinarians detect and manage disease across species.

Dr. Hanks’ journey is remarkable: from becoming a single mom at 19, to mixed animal practice, to discovering a passion for research, and ultimately founding MiRNA, a biotech company advancing early-detection diagnostics in animals.

Eve explains what microRNAs are, why they represent a major leap forward in precision medicine, and how this technology may allow veterinarians to identify chronic disease earlier and improve outcomes for both companion and production animals. She also shares honest insights about leadership, resilience, and what it really takes to build a mission-driven company from the ground up.

This conversation blends science, innovation, and career inspiration — a must-listen for anyone curious about the future of veterinary medicine.

Resources:

• Episode on YouTube
• MiRNA website
• MiRNA on LinkedIn

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Transcript

Eve Hanks

Eve Hanks: [00:00:00] I was just existing in a job and it was fine, but this allowed me to rewrite that whole story about what work means to me and what I want to take to work as well.

Megan Sprinkle: Welcome to Vet Life Reimagined. We are counting down the days to a new year, and I'm excited to bring some individuals whose career paths are contributing to the future of our profession. Just like today's guest, Dr. Eve Hanks, she's a veterinarian, a scientist. A founder, A CEO, and someone I am so impressed with.

Eve has lived so many dimensions of veterinary medicine from growing up, inspired by James Harriet to becoming a single mom at 19, to returning to vet school with a toddler to mixed animal practice, to discovering research was actually not boring, to leading clinical pathology and now founding a company called My RNA, which is at the cutting edge of epigenetics and diagnostics.

Eve Hanks: microRNA are acting like the project managers of our immune system. So we've just leveled up in the game of immunity.

Megan Sprinkle: What makes her story e specially fascinating is how all of those experience, [00:01:00] including leadership and even challenges of parenthood have shaped her into someone who is now changing the future of animal health through micro RNA based diagnostics. This is truly next level science.

That could transform how we improve animal health in the future from cats to cows. So in this episode, you'll hear how Eve built a company from scientific idea to a global team, what micro RNA actually are, and why they might be the biggest breakthrough since we've discovered bacteria. Why this technology could help us diagnose chronic disease earlier and practice more precision Medicine and Eve's incredibly honest reflections on leadership, emotional stamina, and what it really takes to grow into a person your work demands. It's part science, part career inspiration, part mindset shift. Let's get to the conversation with Dr. Eve Hanks.

 When did you know that you were even interested in veterinary medicine? I. 

Eve Hanks: Oh my goodness. What a great question. [00:02:00] So I think probably really quite young, and my sister also was interested in becoming a vet and she was older than me.

So that, I suppose, seeded the idea. And then we used to watch all of the James Harriet programs and it just seemed great. But I think after, so the vet side was one side, and I definitely thought veterinary medicine was really. Something that I wanted to be involved with. But then the next program that had a big influence on me was the XFiles.

And so I'm showing my age, I think, with both of these now, but with the XFiles, , I loved that, , character, really, uh, you know, the sort of molder and Scully type of idea of taking science and interrogating, you know, these. These, um, findings scientifically. So I think I was combining when I was younger, the idea of being a veterinary surgeon or veterinarian with the science side.

So probably that was an early clue for me that I might have ended up in the scientific part of the industry. 

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, [00:03:00] that's a lot of foreshadowing too, of what I think start to get into, . Well, , and you told me too that, you know, there, there was a little bit of a, , change of, of plans, because you ended up having a, a baby around 18 years old.

So how did that start to impact kind of your overall, thought process of career journey and, and maybe what did you find with that? 'cause as. Uh, as a newer parent too, you know, that, that, congratulations. Life changing, 

Eve Hanks: congrat. It really is life changing. I have to say, when you, so I was 18, I was pregnant, 19, I had my daughter, and she is nearly 27 now.

So it seems like a lifetime ago. But I do have to say when you're 19, you've got lots of energy. So. For all of those younger moms out there. We, we laugh quietly internally at, uh, some of the newer moms as they get older, you know, uh, because it's definitely a different type of, um, energy for running up and down stairs, chasing toddlers, et [00:04:00] cetera.

, But yeah, no, of course my, my daughter took priority. so when I ended up going to vet school, I was in my mid twenties. , So I didn't feel it was really that feasible with a baby. , And particularly when you're managing that baby on your own and you have other, things going on in life. So I did put it back.

I think it would've been easy not to go, in all honesty, it would've been easy to say, well, that was a pipe dream. And, you know, and I actually needed to go. Back to college and do exams I hadn't done and things like that, that I should have done at the end of school. But, was, going through a bit of a rebel phase, I imagine at that point, as many people do.

So from that point of view, yeah, I'm super proud that I stuck to my guns and went through vet school with a small child, . And what it taught me actually amazingly, and what I noticed around my, Colleagues when I was , at veterinary school is that I managed to study in short periods of time, you know, [00:05:00] like during a ski lesson or while my daughter was at a birthday party and I managed to learn how to really focus deeply on something for a few hours, you know?

Despite perhaps the tele playing or people asking you questions and things like that, it's actually been a really good skill. So , if there are people wondering about a veterinary career and wondering about how family links in with that, you know, it's very old fashioned. University is not set up for people with children, or really families at all.

And, then the veterinary profession is not really very well set up and wasn't at that time to cater to moms and dads, particularly of younger children. Particularly if you want to go on to specialize, say. You know, do an internship and a residency. I would love that to change because that was blocked to me as a way forward after I graduated because I was a parent and a single parent.

However, in the same breath, I think there was a lot of advantages [00:06:00] to being that little bit more life experience and a bit more mature when I went to vet school. So the stress didn't hit me in the same way it hit some of my classmates. 

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. That's very good observations. Thank you for sharing that. 'cause I think it's good to know and hear that, uh, especially as our profession is becoming more female dominated, and these are things that, you know, we, we have to think about and, , consider as.

Women who are, are very passionate about our careers, but also we adore our families too. And so we have to make some of those decisions and I'm glad you decided to go to vet school cause, I would be sad to miss everything that you're offering, which we'll get to. But then, bringing you back.

What you were thinking about when you were younger and the, you know, watching James Harriet and everything, , did you think that you would go into mixed animal kind of like a James Harriet or did you kind of change what that looked like once you were in vet school and, [00:07:00] starting to, to get out and taking all of life's, , into account?

Eve Hanks: That's a really good question. I was lucky in. That I graduated, there was still mixed practice jobs around, large animal equine and then a mix of small, large and equine at one point as well. So I really enjoyed that. I did want to do that. I really, really thought I wanted to do that, like 100% and I didn't find.

The research side as interesting. when I was at university, looking back, reflecting back again for any students, there was a level of naivety there because I think everything at vet school was so loaded towards clinical work. Because it's essentially what you're, prepared to do when you go out.

Everything was so loaded towards clinical work that in actual fact, there wasn't a lot of thought given to the research, and it seemed like if for some reason you weren't good enough to be a clinical vet, you could go into research. That was the impression I got when I was at vet school, [00:08:00] which of course now, you know, with a veterinary passport, as we say, a degree such as that, we understand I think more , my classmates and I now that we're.

Further in our careers, we understand about specialisms. We understand you can work in epidemiology, public health, you can, you know, do industry work. You can do research, you can be an entrepreneur, for example. So I think I didn't see the passport. I just saw the ticket. , Towards clinical practice and I was in clinical practice for a while and did a mixture of just small emergency, farm, equine and some telehealth actually towards the end.

So I did that for about 12 years. And I enjoyed it, uh, very much. Some days better than others. I'm sure every veterinarian would be nodding along, to that. So some days definitely better than others, but I did overall enjoy it. The problem was I felt like I, after the initial learning curves, I maybe just wasn't making the progress in my career [00:09:00] that I'd expected.

And again, it's that idea where you're perhaps a little bit. veterinary assistant, you know, working in that veterinary job, but there's not the opportunity to own a practice or there's not the opportunity, perhaps without a big change in life anyway, uh, to launch your own practice. So at that point I was questioning, well, what's the next step here?

Megan Sprinkle: And I know you had mentioned doing a specialty , is really hard as a single mom because it is, intense. There's very little pay, time consuming. And so that, can be pretty intimidating, and, y ou know, there are other things you can do. So I'm, I'm glad you were able to, find that.

, And actually that should be a question like, I know you decide to do, a PhD in immunology, so how did you discover, oh, like this is an option and what intrigued you about it that you wanted to go down that path? 

Eve Hanks: Um, so I didn't get the [00:10:00] first PhD that I went for, and oddly, the person who got it is now, uh, Rob, my co-founder.

Oh. So sometimes life does things, you know, that say you don't expect. So there was initially a PhD, more an equine molecular diagnostics that I thought, oh, that sounds great. And it was great. I saw Rob do it. He really enjoyed it. And, um, so we both applied. I didn't know Rob before we both applied for that one and at the end I didn't get that PhD, but the, examining committee, if you like, the decision makers said there is another one and we do like you, so would you apply for that one?

So I thought, okay, that sounds great. So, at the same time Rob and I started our PhDs, mine, ended up being more immunology and his was more on the molecular diagnostic side, so it turned out very well. But the actual idea of doing a PhD had , come from me looking for the next step really.

So, and. I did a certificate in medicine when I was in practice, so did that [00:11:00] alongside practice as opposed to a specialist. You know, it was a advanced veterinary practice certificate, and when I was doing that, I realized that I really missed the cutting edge part, the science, the new way we can apply some of these new findings, like just learning, reading papers, reviewing, critiquing, things that were happening in the overall industry had really reminded me that I did enjoy that part of the job and that's what was missing.

So naturally I thought I've got to carry on with research and started to look at PhD. 

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. And I still think it's funny you told me that, when you were in vet school, you thought research was boring. And uh, little did you know that oh, it is actually interesting and, and the right, uh, context. So, uh, so yeah, so you start to.

Say, oh it is. It sounds really fun to be kind of on the cutting edge of what's new. Yeah. And coming into that though, with a clinical background, I think is also [00:12:00] really unique because you're able to be on the cutting edge, but also understand like practically, like how can we. Do something with this because I, I think sometimes the research kind of just is left into this journal that is, you know, people don't have time to read and it's not like carried forward where we can actually implement that into, you know, why we're in veterinary medicine.

So, what were you discovering in your, PhD program and, and it sounds like maybe you and your, your co-founder maybe shared some of these things and, and got excited together, but like how did that go forward and to eventually, getting to starting a whole company? 

Eve Hanks: yeah, you're totally right.

Applied science is what I'm really passionate about. So I have to say, during my PhD, I was just PhD focused. You know, it takes a lot of your brain and, um, a lot of your life and you actually, I loved it in the sense that I would lie awake at night [00:13:00] thinking about. How I could adjust this experiment or that experiment to get things to work.

It's both good and bad, but it definitely encroached into all areas of my life. and so I didn't really have any idea that I wanted to do innovation at that point I met microRNAs, which is what the innovation is based in, and I understood them and I thought they were important. And then I, that was it.

However, after my PhD, I took a job as a clinical pathologist, so exactly as you're describing there, the clinical knowledge. Plus at that point, then the immunology research, and then the last string to the bow, if you like. Last part of that triangle was when I was working. Then analyzing diagnostics, working with the team at the.

Pathology lab to understand, disease outbreaks. You know, the epidemiology side, the feelings in some of our diagnostics, the difficulties in interpreting, even something as simple as a blood smear or biopsy or, a blood test. [00:14:00] It suddenly dawned on me that we. Therefore could do something more. And of course into that, why are diagnostics not better than this gap?

Which I was starting to understand. I dropped in the idea of microRNA, so that's where that came from. Now initially, uh, you're right that Rob had been, doing his PhD there and we definitely bested about some ideas. Um, he was obviously innovative at the time, so as MiRNA, after I'd launched it and then I started to grow and gather some traction.

Couple of years in, I gave Rob a call. So that was how that happens. There was a few more steps, but we weren't quite as visionary as you made it sound. That would have been great. 

Megan Sprinkle: Yes. if you don't mind, let's step back and let's talk a little bit more about micro RNA because this is still fairly new to a lot of people, so do you mind sharing a little bit about how you personally discovered it and, and just kind of what it is?

'cause I've heard you just describe it really well. 

Eve Hanks: [00:15:00] Thank you. so microRNAs are tiny pieces of RNA. They're non-coding. And when I was at university, used to be involved in that part of the, nucleotide space that people call junk DNA or junk, RNA. So obviously, perhaps slightly naively now we look back on that.

But, uh, because it didn't, it wasn't like messenger, RNA, it didn't make protein. It was considered to be some sort of leftover junk. So obviously things in that field started to merge and in the last perhaps 30 years now, microRNAs have been discovered. So the last 30 years, these guys are so important as just not that long ago.

And when they were discovered, it was thought initially that they were in this. I think it's a free living worm. They were found in cousin of a parasite, that's often studied in labs in order to understand things like genetics, et cetera. 'cause they're very easy to engineer. So the [00:16:00] microRNAs were discovered there.

And not studied out with that realm really for several years until someone had the bright idea to have a look to see if they're elsewhere. And it turns out they are. So microRNAs now are, it's known, they're found in viruses, fungus, bacteria, all mammals that have been looked at plants, for example.

So they're literally ubiquitous. We also share a common ancestors. So microRNAs and Mammals evolved around 500 million years ago, and so what that means is that we have conserved microRNAs. So the microRNAs in my body are the same as a cow or a horse, or a dog or a cat. Excellent news for researchers who would like to look at different species.

so that's really interesting. And then the, scientists who really first started working with microRNAs in that discovery phase won the Nobel Prize for their discovery last year, at the end of last year. So like, literally this is brand [00:17:00] new. Like it's a sort of, it's very akin to the first time we discovered bacteria as a society, because it's literally changed thinking to that level where people are like, oh, I see why cancer appears. Oh, I can see why cancer's regressed. Oh, I understand why this inflammation has happened, you know, in one COVID patient and not in another. Or, for example, there are. microRNAs, uh, working in all different types of developments.

So, congenital problems can be attributed in a lot of cases to microRNAs alongside a variety of different, uh, responses to infectious disease, but also non-infectious chronic diseases. Pregnancy, all of that is microRNA driven. And so really what that boils down to is that microRNA are acting like the project managers of our immune system.

So we've just leveled up in the game of immunity, we've leveled up and we can see the level [00:18:00] above what we previously understood. And we understand now that microRNAs can act on lots of different pathways so they can turn genes on and off. And often one micro a can do that for a variety of genes. They also can silence messenger, RNA by binding it and breaking it down in some other mechanisms.

And then they also act on their own molecular pathways and act as their own messengers. So they're great to, eavesdrop a little bit on the conversation that the body is having between itself. The other thing that's. Super interesting is that if you remember, they're in bacteria, plants, all mammals.

Everything we eat is full of microRNAs, and therefore everything in our intestinal microbiome on our skin that we wash with, et cetera, is all microRNAs as well. So we don't just have our own microRNAs acting on us as a host, but we have the microRNAs that we ingest that live in our [00:19:00] intestines, for example, interacting with us as a host.

And, creating their own microRNAs that can make their way up to, for example, our brain. So we understand now that unexpected things like chronic pain, depression, anxiety, suicide, et cetera, can actually all also be driven by microRNAs. And it could be one of the missing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that allows us to understand more holistically the system that we live in as opposed to thinking of us as a body with some bacteria in our gut instead, understanding that whole system is in constant communication.

And, that's super fascinating as well. So there's lots of emerging areas of science that allow us to really consider aspects of medicine that need to be put in place to really deal with some of the chronic diseases we see in our human and animal population today. 

Megan Sprinkle: So is this basically part of the [00:20:00] epigenetics that people talk about?

Eve Hanks: That's right. Okay. It's epigenetics. So genetics, of course, being your, uh, genes that you're born with can't do much about that. but of course you're born with a variety of genes that may make you. or me more susceptible to a disease, let's say heart disease for example. And that's true also of dogs, cats, et cetera.

So we may have a predisposition to a disease through our genetic imprint, that we can't change at this point in time, that science is also advancing. But we can't really change that just now. However, what's actually expressed what actually happens is then. Down to the microRNAs and other markers in that epigenetic space.

So your genes aren't just randomly all expressing at all times. They will express in relation to a variety of things. So how much are you under stress? What's your environment like? Do you smoke? Do you drink? Do you stay up too late? Do you [00:21:00] need, medications, et cetera. All of that has an effect on what genes.

It's not hot genes we express at what time, but very simply, we could say what genes are on and what genes are off. 

Megan Sprinkle: you already kind of alluded to a question that I would naturally have as a nutritionist. I was like, does what we eat also affect that? And that's actually, so I've heard about epigenetics, you know, at that like very superficial level.

This is the part that turns genes on and off. I knew that much. And now you're kind of like defining it, where you're getting to the point where, okay, now we know how to backtrack and work with these specific elements to impact the epigenetics. And, I know that. In human health, they have looked at epigenetics and nutrition and, and then, what you've talked about on the Innovation podcast, was about heart disease in men. And something about you [00:22:00] can tell that if a man has a heart attack, the likelihood of them dying. I think, did I get that right?

Something like that. 

Eve Hanks: I personally can't tell, but no, it's not quite, I'm not quite as good as that. But doctors, that are working in microRNA research can tell. So what you're touching on there is the idea of epigenetics as prediction. So we have an element of prediction in genetics, don't we?

Because again, we can say, right, you've got, a father for example, who has brown eyes, a mother who has blue eyes. We know we can predict the color of the eyes of that infant, for example. So, so there's genetic prediction is possible, but it's by no means foolproof. And there have been many, breeding programs run, you know, farms are a perfect place to look for that.

These breeding programs that were run to have a particular type of muscle or height or, characteristic in a lamb or calf or a foal for example. And sometimes that happened, but [00:23:00] not always. And it was quite hard to understand, well, why not? Because we've got this blueprint and this blueprint, so why are we not getting a mix of the two?

And so that's where epigenetics really started to be explored in a bit more detail around that, prediction side. Was perhaps for the breeding side of things, but it turns out way more powerful than that. So, there are certain profiles of microRNAs that will be apparent before death, and they can be attributed to death by, a particular cause.

Now, obviously, there are inflammatory micros that might be, in. In the middle of a rising, in a death, a, a sort of old age death or something like that. But there's two that stick out for me. So the first, like you say, is in heart disease, when before really the heart attack has occurred, there are microRNAs that elevate, that suggests that heart attack will be fatal.

And we don't even know the heart attack's going to happen yet. So like you can start to [00:24:00] say to someone, you're going to have a heart attack and you're going to die from it. So it's like predictive of death or ideally you're not going to die from it. So it's predictive of death. The other one that I find, astounding, and again, a lot more research to go into this area, but, there are two or three microRNAs that elevate, in a human being in 24 hours before they die from suicide.

Oh wow. So, yeah, that's a big one. So, you know, again, it's what, what level of system are we going to, to discover here? How deep can we dig here and ethically do we want to predict this? Who knows? But actually, if we can see those events. Or events or end stage moments coming, then can we in, in some way control that either using antisense microRNAs as an actual medication, to avoid that event or giving the, good microRNAs Again, we're very far from understanding what's good and bad, but giving [00:25:00] good micros that might counteract some of those effects.

Stop that cancer, stop that death, stop that, Clot in a cat with HCM, stop that heart failure and a dog with. MMVD. So there's a lot of things that can be done with microRNAs, but it's a very watch this space because we don't really know in the scientific field what happens if you give antisense microRNAs, and particularly not long term.

So one of probably the first modifications could be trying to manipulate the microRNA pattern. Through diet actually, as you mentioned, so a really interesting area, but there's a lot of work just now in therapeutics in the human side to treat things like cancer in particular.

trying to fight against some of those oncomirs, so those oncology microRNAs which are causing cancer and allow regression. So super interesting. 

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. sounds like a lot more to learn and understand. How did you decide which direction you were gonna [00:26:00] go, with this knowledge and especially for animals and, you know, what have you discovered so far?

I think the company, uh, MiRNA is about six years old, so like Yeah. How did you decide your direction and, when it comes to. The nitty gritty of like diagnostics, I happen to know it, diagnostics, you know, what have you started to work on? 

Eve Hanks: Yeah, that's a, a really good question. So you're right.

The first decision there is do we look at microRNAs from a therapeutic or diagnostic point of view? And diagnostics is going to be quicker as an applied science to actually take into a clinic. So we chose that, or I chose diagnostics. And really the reason for that, apart from it being quicker, is that therapeutics the data that we need as a community for a therapeutics can also come from diagnostics.

Because in diagnostics we mapped the disease, which is almost like the baseline data then for the therapeutics. So the diagnostics side of things we don't [00:27:00] actually need at MiRNA to know what each microRNA that we work with and diagnostically what it's actually doing. We just need to know that it's consistently there in a disease or a health state.

So. That's great. so that was the first thing and we obviously want to know what they're doing, but it's not necessary for us to 100% understand each molecular pathway of that microRNA and friends that are on our MicroRNA panels. So the next thing we had to do was decide where they might be most useful.

And I found personally in practice, it was really frustrating when I was working with chronic disease in cats and dogs. For example, you hear a heart murmur in a dog. And you just say, let's wait and see. Maybe you can't do scans. It's probably MMVD, et cetera. Or you have an older, uh, not an older, sorry, a larger dog, who maybe has DCM, but you've got no idea.

So, you know, they have a dilated cardiomyopathy and collapse, and then that's the first, you know of it. And [00:28:00] similarly with cats with chronic heart disease, around things like hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. Where they can't even just die, you know? And I just thought that was such a failing of diagnostics.

But there was no obvious pathway for some of these otherwise healthy animals to be routinely scandal of the time. So that seemed like a big gap. And so that led us initially down chronic and cardio disease, which turned into cardiovascular disease, which turned into chronic disease of all sorts. So we also work, with osteoarthritis, for example, kidney disease.

We do some work in cancer. We're working on anxiety in dogs, which is great. And we're also looking at different types of sampling in cats and dogs. So urine sampling and blood sampling, for example. So trying to make that whole thing really flexible. So the idea is that some of those really frustrating gaps where early diagnosis would be amazing, and we currently don't have a blood sample for it.

[00:29:00] That's where we targeted first. Or a urine sample and then. I actually didn't want to just do companion animals, so we definitely also have our production animal side, which we talk about slightly less. because a lot of podcasts and a lot of the visibility work that we do, um, is focused at the pet space because it tends to be where people.

Are more interested. But actually for me, production animal is as valid and as important in terms of research. One of our mission and aims around microRNAs and diagnostics in general was to diagnose early disease so we can manage it better and that absolutely makes sense and on farm as much as it does in clinic.

So on farm we have a problem with endemic disease, which really means that we're dealing with diseases we can't eradicate that are constantly sapping the welfare, the productivity, and the economics on a farm. Plus at the same time. Adding to greenhouse gas [00:30:00] emissions, for example, per kilo of meat and per liter of milk.

And that's also unacceptable diagnostically because with things like microRNAs, what we can do is diagnose that disease earlier and then manage it better so that we reduce those rates of prevalence and hopefully eradicate certain disease as we go forward. So we are working with Johne's disease in cattle, which is the same as Crohn's disease in humans.

And we're working with tuberculosis So two big targets, in the, cattle side, but we have other plans as well to work with some of the other chronic endemic diseases that affect the sector. 

Megan Sprinkle: That's fascinating. So you're saying, you're looking at opportunities where there's a gap in diagnosis.

I get that. Will this also be something like. uh, spectrum of care, uh, you know, is a big hot topic right now. Is this something that you foresee being financially [00:31:00] also option, or do you think this is going to be expensive to start out with? Like, just from that perspective as we're starting to get a little bit more into the, the application of this, what can we expect from that when we're trying to.

Talk with, whether it's a pet owner or you know, a, a farmer, how is that gonna be a part of this? 

Eve Hanks: Yeah, that's an excellent question and not to be held to any of the price discussions. You don't have to name an 

Megan Sprinkle: exact 

Eve Hanks: price. It depends on your geography and No, no, you're totally right. So this is supposed to be applicable.

Um, so it's a mid-range test for like cost-wise for our small animals. So for example, if you want to screen, let's just. You know, through our use case together, if you want to screen that slightly older cat. Pre-anesthetic to make sure there's not HCM there. It's gonna cost you about the same as a pro BMP test, but you're gonna see early disease.

And then as There's two aspects of the technology, if [00:32:00] that's positive. As we move forward with our results and with our data, because we use artificial intelligence and data modeling to superpower these results and to build in that predictive aspect that we talked about earlier. So as we move forward into that part of the, uh, work, then we would be able to take a positive test forward for further testing to then build in prediction about.

What stage is it? How likely a clots gonna occur? you know, how likely is it that this cat could suffer a sudden death, for example. So that could be then an add-on cost, of course. but again, it's still super accessible, like it's not prohibitive. and then on the farm side, it's about the same as, as an ELIZA test for Johne's disease.

Again, so just very comparable to what's out there in the market. But again, if there's a positive reading for Johne's or TB, further work can be done, particularly in Johne's because predicting whether that, member of the herd, that cow is [00:33:00] going to go ahead to have clinically expressed Johne's compared to subclinical and, and not really that relevant Johne's can be really useful information for herd management. So there's a variety of like layers. is the answer to the question. It's a bit complex. It's a variety of layers. So there's like a, like a, sort of mega meal deal if you like. You get all of the predictions and then there's like a Diet Coke version, you know, which is just a screening and wellness test.

but both, if you imagine the, the price range of tests being, from very high to very low, both are sitting in a comfortable. place within that, sort of quartile two, quartile three of testing. 

Megan Sprinkle: And is this something that a veterinarian in, in private practice, general practice, could be able to do?

Eve Hanks: Yes. Targeted completely for generalists at this point. So generalists are usually our early disease, diagnosers and, you know, [00:34:00] absolutely. it's tough in practice to do that and to do it as economically and as quickly as possible and to screen, you know, so wellness, testing, all of that, health checks, et cetera.

That's where the test is aimed as the prediction aspect builds in more and that becomes more reliable as you imagine. We need lots and lots of data, so we've got 48,000 data points in our data models at the moment, which is amazing, and from all of our amazing collaborators and sample collectors that have got us to this point.

But. As that database builds and we are more sure of the prediction side, then of course it becomes more relevant as well for specialists because it's the sort of test you could run alongside a biopsy or a heart scan or a, you know, if you're looking at a, a scope for joint disease, et cetera. So all of that can be built in for, for our cardiologists, nephrologists, and oncologists going forward.

But we're not quite there yet. That's gonna take maybe another year to a year and a half, to put [00:35:00] together fully. 

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. Well, and thank you. You built on kind of where I was going with this is, you know, this is super exciting and in this podcast a lot of what this is about is talking about the possibilities in, in careers in veterinary medicine too.

So, as this sounds a little sci-fi almost that we're, we're getting to these levels, what's the impact for the. The professionals, you know, do you see this creating new jobs? And potentially career paths?

Eve Hanks: Yeah, that's a really great question. I think there are a variety of things that generally artificial intelligence, big data. , All of which we're part of. And then innovative models around things like diagnostics and therapeutics are going to be bringing to the table. And people say, where do you think this might be in 10 years?

But no, like one, two years. This is changing a lot, you know, and we've already seen in practice that, now in clinic there's a variety of AI tools being used, like pathology, for [00:36:00] example, ChatGPT. It's everywhere. Now I know that a lot of people lean on chatGPT to remind themselves of about anesthetic protocol, you know, for a certain, size of dog, for example.

So that type of thing. So it's going to become more prevalant in hospitals. And in clinics and on farm, and we are riding that wave a little bit. So I won't claim to create the jobs or change the behavior in practice, uh, just with what we are doing. But as that's naturally changing with everything that's happening and embracement of these new technologies and the ability to deliver better care at the right time to our patients, which is essentially the point, and the impact that we want to have that as we get longer living healthier, health spans longer living lifespans, of course, for our pets, due to these advancements. I think there is creation of jobs there. I think there is not just creation of jobs, it creation of job satisfaction, you know, of being able to do what we actually train to [00:37:00] do because we're not constantly guessing.

We're able to have the facts at our fingertips and when that moves forward as precision medicine where we will know from a simple diagnostic test. And once all this is combined and the data we hold on a pet, what treatment to use, when, when to start it, what the outlook is and what the prognosis is, genuinely, I think the owners are just going to lose that worry that comes, you know, with pet ownership.

The vets aren't going to second guess themselves all of the time because it's precision medicine, it's data is there, and then we're actually going to be able to do slightly more advanced levels of medicine, even in generalist practice. So I hope this is gonna elevate, really the job for everybody.

Megan Sprinkle: And, going back more towards your particular career path and job. how has this impacted you? I got off on a, a nerdy, uh, sidetrack, you start the, this company, you're working with partners, but [00:38:00] what are you experiencing yourself personally through all this?

What have been some of the, the challenges, but also some of the interesting opportunities? 

Eve Hanks: yeah, it's always difficult because it depends. I think it's such a different day every day. It almost depends when you ask that, like what the experience like. Well, today's all right. But, um, I think for me.

The growth that I was seeking. You know, as I mentioned, when I was in practice, I felt like definitely had, I had so many wonderful colleagues and so many great learning moments, but that lifelong learning wasn't there for me. You know, sure you, you're gonna get a shock every now and again with an emergency you've never seen.

But things can get a little bit routine. So for me, this flipped the hat completely on its head and the, the amount of learning that goes on when you're in a startup position, a leadership position. and at the cutting edge of science, I mean, it's insane. I learned something new about every hour, nevermind every day.

So it's wonderful. , [00:39:00] But for me there was a couple of big transitions. So the first one was I was a scientific founder, so dreaded by every venture capital funds, you know, worldwide. Um, so I was a scientific founder at Science First. I wasn't doing this, and still I'm not really doing this for the financial return.

I was doing this to apply the science, so it's for me, a scientific project that got a little bit out of hand. but now obviously we have raised money, quite a few times. We've got 35 people working with us in 10 different countries. We've got. Literally close to a hundred collaborators, or partners in different areas and places, working with us, you know, in, in terms of, everything from data samples, processes, right through to the end delivery of a diagnostic and from that point of view, I had to move from being a scientific founder to being the CEO and that professional development path was way harder than I had signed up for. [00:40:00] just the emotions of that, the changing who you think you are, what you think you can do, like no comfort zone existed for many years. And of course, the thing is you're doing a lot of this.

While you're working another job, because at the start of a startup, you don't have a wage, like nobody's there to pay you. This is just some crazy idea that you've had in your bedroom one time, you know, and, and written in a notebook. So you've got to make it into something before you can actually join the company.

So I think I was like staff member number five or something like by the time I was employed, so I think that I didn't realize, I thought you raised investment then sort of got on with it. But you have to do a lot before you get anywhere near investment or grants, et cetera. So that was a big barrier for me.

And then you have to change and be the best version of leader that you can. Because you're then genuinely in a CEO position and you're not in a founder position. You, you are, but like the two have changed. So I'm just finishing off, um, my MBA. So I think that's been a [00:41:00] really important journey for me.

So just professionally putting that degree in place so that I know that I'm working with the business and the science and the people knowledge by them. So that's been really good. And then personally, for me, I've taken this opportunity really to. To explore a little bit about what I wanted in life.

My daughter has grown up, of course, you know, I moved house, I got a counselor, which is like the best thing ever. Everybody should do that. you know, and I started to invest in me. So there is an element of, people talk about resilience, when you are a startup founder, they're not wrong, but resilience isn't something you're born with.

Resilience. I think for me, certainly. It's something that, it's almost like building stamina. It's like emotional stamina as opposed to resilience. Sounds a little bit like you just get up, get knocked out, get up, get knocked out. It's not really how it works, you know, I think it's [00:42:00] emotional stamina to ride those difficult times.

of doubt, of rejections, of all of that, that comes with trying to raise money, trying to sell an idea or a dream if you like. Partnerships that don't work out, whatever it might be. And I think the stamina that comes with that is something you can practice, but to practice that you need the self-care.

You know, like you need to actually give yourself a little bit in the tank before you go to work every day. So I think from that point of view, something I'd never really considered was self care was actually the key. To the productivity that we find, or I find, uh, that I have locked up, if you like. So, , that was a complete change Before I was just, you know, running every day, not really thinking, not really analyzing, not really, taking joy in my work, if you like.

I was just existing in a job and it was fine, but this allowed me to rewrite that whole, that whole story about what work means to me and what I want to take to work as well. [00:43:00] 

Megan Sprinkle: That is probably something most people just needed to hear, so I thank you for sharing that. , And , now, one of the things you graciously shared with me, and as I'm listening to you, I'm like, oh, this is so interesting. You had such a desire for growth and learning at the same time. Failure or the idea of failure, maybe even to start with, is really terrifying. And, and you shared that this is one of the things that you've really had to work on.

Which is extremely common one in life, but especially in a startup like, 'cause that's just part of startups, right? Like you fail fast, you learn and you go, And so I think this is such, is an interesting almost paradox, right? Like this, this need for learning, but along with learning it is like failure.

Like failure is how we learn most of the time. So do you mind sharing a little bit more about that? Because I think a lot of people relate to this. So if you don't mind, again, asking for a little vulnerability, but uh, sharing a little bit of your [00:44:00] journey here.

Eve Hanks: No, of course. No, I'm really passionate about this. One of the other roles I have now is I coach other startup businesses, through an initiative, that the University of Surrey, run and. This is a matter that comes up quite often actually. And it's those first one to three years where this really bites if you like.

But what again? And it is not, but it's just, it's just hard to go through. There's no, but it can just, sometimes it can just be difficult. You don't have to say but positively. And it is just difficult, that part. I think the emotional stamina comes from having gone through that part though also, and what kind of happens after a little while is for me is that I realized that what I was worried about happening was always worse than what happened.

Now we can say that about any part of life, of course, but in particular in business, the moment someone started relying on me and my ideas for wage. [00:45:00] That was like every person we took on was like on my shoulders, if you like. If you imagine that, then the failure, it's not about me losing face. It was never really a fear that I had.

Well, everybody has, but that I felt personally would impact me heavily in my life. It wasn't so much that it was more, you know, I've got these members of staff with families and kids and dreams and lives and holidays they're paying for and mortgages and this is reliant on me, and I felt very much like that.

So every decision you take gives you that shoot of adrenaline, that moment of fear, because what happens if this doesn't go right? And of course if you leave any questions such as that, to ruminate in your brain, then you're gonna get all sorts of scenarios that aren't necessarily going to be the most positive.

However, luckily for me, I'm naturally optimistic so I can see that things could go wrong, but I feel that it's more likely that things are going to go well [00:46:00] and, what you actually change. I was talking to a friend this morning on a walk actually, so I'll share that, conversation because I think that's useful.

What actually changes is you move from a scarcity mindset, and perhaps you've heard about this, to more of an abundance mindset, and that's what you're describing where you fail fast, and then you get on with it in some other way. It's every failure. I was so cliche, but every time you fail, there is another opportunity.

. It's that idea where it's not the scarcity. I had an idea it failed. I can't do anything else with it. I tried to raise money. They said, no, I'm stuck. Or, um, I tried for this partnership, it didn't come off. I've got nowhere to go. That scarcity mindset, actually. You're right, you can't do anymore.

But if you go with that abundance idea, I try to raise money with these people. They said, not yet. So I need to try to find someone more linked to this aspect of the sector. Or maybe I need to have more angels on board you before I get VC money or. [00:47:00] Whatever it could be. So it's always having that idea that it's gonna work out.

There's going to be the opportunity there. And if I'm, if this partnership isn't ready to unlock yet, well that's great. 'cause these resources can go here towards this partnership so that change from scarcity where I was at first, where I just followed one simple path and then got a no or a yes sometimes, obviously I also got a yes, it was great, but you know, and got a no.

I started to realize that that path zigzags everywhere and there's all sorts of tangents that come off of it and that the nos. are still nos and there's still that emotional response to a no, but that the nos themselves often allow you to take that tangential path and find something that would've been better actually overall.

So, yeah, I don't know. There's no answer to failure. We all fear it, like you say, it's not a pleasant feeling, but I think scarcity versus abundance can help, just to, or certainly help me to ease some of that. [00:48:00] 

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, and, and I think there's a little bit of experience in it too. I think I kind of caught it too when you were talking about it.

I, I think when you, you have failed once and you realized. I didn't die. and there's something else came around it's still hard. Yeah. But it kind of builds that abundance mindset. It's like, okay, you know, we've done this before. And so, being around other people with experience, so that's so wonderful of you to. Be there to support other startups so you can hear other people say, been there. it stinks. but there is that, you never know what might be around the corner. So it now's not the time to stop or, or get stuck.

It's to keep looking. Well, our time is almost gone. So, , before we have to leave, if people wanna follow more about you and miRNA, where can we send people to? To follow up. 

Eve Hanks: I love, the LinkedIn community, so definitely I got a [00:49:00] lot out of LinkedIn and, and always love to hear from people, messages, et cetera.

You know, I try to respond to that and post, we post what we're doing as a team, so that's always handy. And then in the next few months, we should have a lovely revamped website. So I loved the old website too. so I was very heavily involved in that, but we're getting a bit more professional, so there's gonna be, if, if it's interest in things like scientific papers that we're publishing.

Or conferences we're speaking in, or presentations, videos about the company, then the website's great for that. So that's probably the two main areas. and generally we were just saying that things like normal conference life, like actually arriving at veterinary conferences, I'm often there. So it's always great to meet people in person as well.

Megan Sprinkle: Sounds good. We were just talking about VMX, so if anybody's headed to VMX, look up miRNA and reach out. Let's do It's do it. Yeah. It's good. Awesome. Well, the question I always love to end on is what is something you're really grateful for right now? Just the first thing that comes up to your mind. 

Eve Hanks: The walk I had with my [00:50:00] friends this morning.

So honestly, my friends, my family, my, colleagues. Just that human interaction to keep you sane. Yeah, I love that. So, so, so grateful. 

Megan Sprinkle: What I didn't tell you in the intro was that almost a year ago, I gave a presentation at the Global Pet Expo about the future of animal health and nutrition, and I actually mentioned Eve's Company, my RNA. It's incredible to be able to meet individuals. All over VetMed impacting the profession in their own unique way.

Dr. Eve is such a powerful example of what can happen when you stay open, curious, and willing to follow a path that's en unfolding in front of you. I appreciate that she shared her journey in leadership, resilience and emotional stamina, and the reminder that all of us have to invest in our personal growth to do big things. When we step outside our comfort zone and have a supportive environment.

We can surprise ourselves with what we can do. A huge thank you to Dr. Eve Hanks for sharing her story, her science, and her vision for better health across [00:51:00] species. And thank you to our podcast platform supporter, Dr. Kelly Cooper, for helping make conversations like this possible. If this episode inspired you or taught you something new, please take a moment to follow the show and share it with a colleague.

It truly helps this podcast grow so that we can go on to do more and bigger things in the future that I'm excited about, and as always, let's keep reimagining what's possible in veterinary life.