We Are Power Podcast
The We Are Power podcast is the podcast for your career and your life. A weekly podcast with listeners in over 60 countries worldwide where you'll hear personal life stories, top-notch industry advice, and key leadership insight from amazing role models. The podcast not only aids your personal and professional development but also delves deep into conversations around Gender Equality and Social Mobility. Each week the We Are Power Podcast will bring you a new interview from a leader within the 100,000-strong We Are Power community, hosted by Simone Roche MBE.
We Are Power Podcast
Squiggly Paths and Happy Accidents with Iwona Szmidt and Michael Howard
Unlock the secrets of successful leadership and career growth with Iwona Szmidt and Michael Howard from Bank of America.
Discover how resilience and transferable skills can transform your professional journey.
Tune in to hear insightful stories about the role of employee networks in creating inclusive workplaces, especially for the LGBTQ+ community.
Listen to Learn:
- How embracing diversity boosts leadership and drives success.
- The transformative power of active listening.
- Navigating a dynamic career path with confidence.
- The role of being an ally in inclusive workplaces.
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Hello, hello and welcome to the we Are Power podcast Northern Power Women podcast. For your career and your life, no matter what business you're in. Hello, hello and welcome to the we Are Power podcast, a podcast, and every week I am chatting to some of the most amazing role models from in and across the north of England. And this week I've got a double act. I've got two for one. I've got Ivona and Michael from Bank of America, and they have the fanciest titles in the world. We've got Ivona and Michael from Bank of America and they have the fanciest titles in the world. We've got Ivona who is the Managing Director for Markets and Operations, the site lead over at Chester where Bank of America HQ sits, and we've got Michael Howard, who is the Transaction Reporting Control Group, followed by TRCG acronyms. We love an acronym. Welcome, ivona and Michael. Welcome to the podcast over in sunny Chester and it is sunny, right, it's very sunny Hi.
Speaker 2:Simone, great to be here Hi.
Speaker 1:Michael, great to see you.
Speaker 3:Hey, simone. Hey, yeah, no, thanks for having us.
Speaker 1:Oh no, it's brilliant. It's brilliant because we love working with you as one of our fantastic partners and this gives us an opportunity to get in and beyond the Bank of America brand. And Yvonne, you have had lots of different leadership roles throughout your career and it was it was brilliant. A few weeks about, we had you on one of our brilliant webinars as well, and we were talking about different life lessons in the future of work. But what are some of those lessons that you've learned across your multiple roles?
Speaker 2:Oh, there's so many. You know, I think I probably learn every day from someone, but if I think about leadership and what I've learned about leadership, first thing I'd say is listen. I think so often people think being a leader is about talking and giving direction. Actually, it's about listening. People might have better ideas than you do, people might be able to contribute and change the way you process or the way you think.
Speaker 2:But also what I think is important is sometimes you will assume that your team or your clients are on the journey with you already, whereas actually maybe they're not, and you need to listen to be able to hear that.
Speaker 2:And so that's sort of the other lesson you need to bring your team, your clients, whoever you're working with, with you on the journey, and for that you need to think about how you communicate, how people receive the message. So it's not just about what you say and how you say it, but actually how people will receive that message. And probably the biggest lesson I've learned is actually around diversity of team, and you can be most successful and actually deliver the most as a leader if you have a team that's diverse diverse of thought, diverse of experience, diverse of background, because everyone brings something else to the table, and you just become this complete team and super strong and able to deliver. I think those are probably the main things I take with me and certainly I pass on to any mentees I have as well and I think that's what it is, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's those lessons that you learn along the way, that you can you give and gain along the way as well, don't? And it's you learn from those mentees as well, I think? I think that's that that true. I think that leadership being that kind of circular route, and we, we talk about different career paths and, um, we often talk about squiggly career paths because we, nobody, nobody, has ever has that sort of straight route, uh, to Everest Base Camp, and maybe we'll get on to that in a second Michael, but how did you go from finance or to finance where you are now, from studying psychology?
Speaker 3:yeah, definitely definitely not a straight path, simone, and definitely not not where I intended to end up, that's for sure. Um, my passion was always criminal psychology and I was always intent on getting into, like the prison service or the probation service, something like that. Um, it was just a very a curveball was thrown to me. I was due to start a master's in criminal psychology and then, six weeks before my course started, uh, the university cancelled it. Uh, so, throwing an absolute curveball right at the last minute, I was like, ah, okay, I've just signed a 12 month contract at house in chester, I've taken up all the finances for the degree. What do I do now? Um, so, fortunately for me, I just started a summer job where it's supposed to be a summer job, at MB&A, which at the time was owned by Bank of America.
Speaker 3:I got into that and thought, right, okay, let's just work out what I'm going to do next. What am I going to do with this? With this master's and then, having no money, writing essays all the time, suddenly I was getting a monthly income. I wasn't in the library for several hours a day. I thought, okay, let's just stick for this a little bit longer until I work out what I want to do, and I think I'm now 16 years and I'm still trying to obviously work out what I want to do.
Speaker 3:But I'm 16 years down this career now of financial services. So not what I intended, but but I'm 16 years down this career now of uh, of financial services. So not what I intended, but a very happy accident. To be honest, simone, like the, the working at the bank, I think that's one thing I've found is there's so many opportunities that I in fact I was counting up before, before this, before this podcast how many roles have I done? I've done like eight roles in sort of that, 16 years, so I've never got bored. I've and I've obviously never gone back to education, but I've never got bored. There's always something to move on to another uh group, to join a team to do. You know different responsibilities and stuff. So it's definitely worked out really nicely for me. I can't complain, um, but who knows, maybe, maybe one day I'll get back into criminal psychology, but for now, yeah, no, absolutely loving life.
Speaker 3:Uh, this happy accident's worked out well, you've got to wait till your summer job finishes, right well, exactly, it's been a hell of a long summer, uh, a lack of sunshine, but um yeah, hell of a long summer.
Speaker 1:Job this Simone and can I just ask how did you feel at that moment? Because this is situations and circumstances out your control. So you've, you've made your plan, you've got somewhere to stay, you've got your path. I'm going to do this, masters, and all of a sudden that rug is pulled from under you. And how did you kind of deal with that? Because that's that first sort of curveball of adversity thrown in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's pretty scary because, like, yes, like I say literally, yeah, my head's sort of right, I'm doing this, this is my future, like, say, got this job here, it's going to be part-time, I'm going to be doing this course here, and and then suddenly, yeah, uh, it is, it is hard.
Speaker 3:I think it was just sort of got to take a step back and go okay, well, I was very lucky in that or sort of had that job set up so it gave me a bit of breathing space. But it's just sort of that resilience, uh, and tell you what I think, if I look back now as well, that's probably served me well for a career that you need to be resilient. Yeah, you know, things change in jobs or in across your career. Right, you'll come across moments where things change. Being able to be resilient and adapt to that change is definitely a skill that I think you everyone should try and have, right, um? So, yeah, it was, it was scary, um, but yeah, I think you just got to sort of roll, roll with the punches sometimes, just kind of see where where things land. And yeah, my experience is there's always been something good as sort of happened at the end of those sort of changes and stuff.
Speaker 1:So hopefully that continues and I think, if I know, you know we talk about that squiggly career path. You know you've gone from architecture to the finance sector, like you know, you guys.
Speaker 2:We like to mix it up. I know it's interesting, I think, when people hear that I, you know, started with architecture and even going back to A-levels right, I've got fine art, a-level. What's that got to do with working in a bank? And you know, probably I'll say, well, I moved away from architecture, I'm actually not that good at art. But actually there are definitely skills that I learned doing that degree or doing that learning that I now use because there's so many transferable skills.
Speaker 2:You don't just have to commit yourself to one career, and there's two in particular, actually and some of my team laugh at me for the first one is presentation skills. So when I was doing my degree, once a week I had to put my drawings up on a wall and present. This is my idea and this is what I've done and this is why I think it's so fabulous. And actually in probably every profession you do, even in banking, you need to present your idea, your pitch, what you want to do or even help people understand an issue that may have happened, whatever it might be, both in a sort of presentation pack be it PowerPoint or other systems and verbally. You need to present, you need your pitch. So that really, really helped me because I used to be really shy as well. So just getting up there and talking was great.
Speaker 2:And I think the other one is resilience, which is actually hand in hand with that presentation, because those presentations I did weekly were actually to my tutor group. So, as you can imagine, a bunch of 18 to 20-year-old students not very forgiving and actually were pretty brutal with their feedback and in something like architecture, it's your ideas, it's quite personal. So to be able to take that feedback, not take it personally, not get upset, pick yourself up and go forward is it helps you with that inner strength and that sort of ability to back yourself and keep going. And you know it really helped with the resiliency. I think the first time I got out I left in tears but by the time I finished my three years, you know I was answering back and telling people why. You know their comments weren't appropriate.
Speaker 1:It's almost like that was a precursor for the Apprentice TV show. Appropriate, it's almost like that was a precursor for the Apprentice TV show. Maybe. That's where maybe your peer group were some of the trainers for some of Lord Sugar's interview skills. And, michael, you've got, you know, lots of side hustles, haven't you? But one of your key roles is being co-chair of the LGBTQ plus and employee network and pillar lead for enterprise. Um, what have been, what have been sort of the impact that you've made and been involved in as part of these, these, um, these, these groups?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, you're right, yeah, side hustles is a good, a good way to describe them, simone. Um, yeah, so I've been involved as a co-chair of the LGBTQ network for a few years and a pillar lead of the enterprise training team when I certainly on the local Chester side, being a network chair, I came in at the start of COVID. So the difference I see from then when we were all sitting at home, virtually we couldn't run any in-person events, it was really difficult to, kind of, you know, build that sort of support network. I think it was very, very hard when everyone was at home. So you know, since then, if I kind of look to now, where things have gone, where we're back to running the regular events, our membership has grown exponentially. That's been huge.
Speaker 3:The stuff we've done on the training team, which is the enterprise level, so that's across the entire organization globally, the sessions have been able to run there Training in terms of cover topics like allyship, sort of around trans topics, non-binary topics. We run panel discussions with employees that either identify that, but also some of the powerful sessions around things like parents that are either identified that, but also some of the powerful sessions around things like parents, um, and like those going through sort of the challenge of their children coming out, perhaps, and how they've coped with that, sharing their knowledge and experience with everyone else, um, sort of across the business. So those sort of things are the, the impact and difference you kind of see from them. And then, especially, sort of more, we've really built the relationship with a charity that we work with called Chester Pride. So for you or any listeners that don't know Chester Pride, they are a local LGBTQ charity. I am very privileged as well.
Speaker 3:Another side, hustle, simone, is I'm also a director of Chester Pride, which is sort of a voluntary role I took up from October. So we've really built a relationship with them. The bank now has increased its sponsorship. We actually sponsor the Youth Pride section. That's recently sort of started and through that we were able to build relationships with local schools.
Speaker 3:So we kicked off last year in 2023, going out in partnership with Chester Pride for a number of local schools speaking to the students that are part of some of these LGBTQ clubs. Schools have actually got now speaking to the kids about what Chester Pride is and how we can support them, how we'd love to see them come and support us on the day, and stuff like that. So building those relationships with the local schools that we're sort of continuing this year, that's been another sort of fantastic difference in sort of impact that we've seen locally and hopefully, yeah, that kind of stuff continues. So, yeah, it's been from when I took over in sort of yeah, covid times, to where we are now. It's a whole world of difference for sure.
Speaker 1:And I think the importance of being part of these side hustles. If we call them, you know whether it be in your organisation. If we call them, you know whether it be in your organisation. So whether it's a, you know, employee resource group or a community within your organisation or outside, you know it's never. What would you say to someone who's maybe listening, who thinks you know, I've maybe wanted to get involved with this internally, or you know something over here externally, but I don't know whether I've got the experience, or I don't know whether I can, or what would you say to them?
Speaker 3:I'd there are can or uh, what would you say to them? I'd say I'd say sort of two things, but one is like you definitely have got the experience because you don't need any experience. This was a reservation and a self-doubt I personally had when getting involved because, um, I'm like I'm not part of the lgbtq community. Okay, I'm a very passionate straight ally, friends and family that are part of the community. That's kind of, uh, yeah, I think sort of crafted me to how I am, why I'm passionate. But that's a reservation for a start I always had of, well, I'm not part of the community, I can't really speak for people, I shouldn't be involved in this and I don't know enough. I'm I'm not a senior person at work and always have had those doubts. But actually, um, everyone is welcome in the sort of network for internal or external. Everyone's experience, uh, and differences are are valid and welcomed, um, and and the other thing I'd say is like it makes a huge difference people getting involved in these things. And I'll give you an example, simone, because this is something that's really sort of resonated with me since I sort of um started getting involved internally, um, so I always think sort of, you know what impact does it have? And this is a question I get asked, right, what difference does it make, michael? Who cares Like? Why does it matter if I get involved? Why does it matter if I have a rainbow flag on my desk?
Speaker 3:Well, we had a team I worked in previously. We had a brand new starter that came. They were fresh out of university. This is their very first job obviously a scary and daunting moment, right, you start your first sort of corporate job and that in itself is scary. Um, then, externally, this person personally was going through a bit of sort of turmoil in terms of not knowing how to identify. They knew they weren't straight, but they were sort of questioning a lot of stuff. Put Put those things together. Right, that's ultra scary for someone. How do you act in the office? Do you tell people generally how you are and how you practice? Do you sort of pretend to be straight because you want to maybe fit in right? You're not sure how colleagues are going to react. So that is a really scary time, I think, for anyone.
Speaker 3:Roll on 12 months and that person signed up to join the network and when they signed up I saw they flagged themselves as out at work. So I remember going to speak to them and saying great love that you've joined, and I didn't even know that you were out, it's not something you've ever spoken about. And they said do you know what? Yeah, I wasn't sure. When I first started at work I had all these mixed feelings. I didn't know whether I should be sort of out or not. And they said the biggest thing is what.
Speaker 3:I've seen, the network. I see the visibility across the office. I see there are rainbow flags on people's desks. We have these tent cards and we call them work that kind of says I'm an ally or I'm out of work. They see the events, the coffee mornings that we run and the chest of pride relationship that we have, and those things made that person feel comfortable to come out of work. It wasn't anything that we did. You know I didn't behave differently. Nobody knew this person was struggling. It was just how everyone naturally behaved. The natural stuff that network did was enough that that person thought yeah, today we're actually bank of america, I can be myself here, I can bring my whole self to work. So little stories like that. You realize that's why we do it. You know, you don't need to have any special skills or experience. You just need to be yourself, be that ally for other people, and that, can you know, can create an inclusive environment for other people. So that that's what I'd say to someone as well. It really does make a difference.
Speaker 1:And it motivates you to do more, doesn't it? Because for that one story that you've just relayed, there'll be a dozen others that you don't know about, that you'll hear in future weeks or months that you're like oh my goodness, this is why we do what we do and, yvonne, you know you're the co-chair of the global operations and the EDI councils. What are you most proud of? Because, I know, not leading the witness, your Honour, but you know, I know allyship and advocacy is really important, isn't it to you in the culture of your, your team? But there's a, there's a million things that you're driving out there. What, what sort of sparks your um, your motivation to keep co-chairing and driving that, that agenda?
Speaker 2:yeah, the, the, the, the teams have done so much, the councils have delivered so much. The councils have delivered so much. I mean, as co-chairs, really, we guide them. It's the individuals who join the networks, as Michael said, and participate. They're really the drivers and we do a lot around inclusivity and I think that's really important. I think that touches on what Michael mentioned.
Speaker 2:We very much believe here at Bank of America about bringing your whole self to work and Michael mentioned that and it's about everyone should feel comfortable being whoever they are when they come to work, and that is about inclusivity and people feeling comfortable and as part of those counts. I mean, there's a long list of things we did, but actually the thing I'm proudest of and I'm going to say it as we try to create more Michaels because we had an initiative called All Four or hashtag All Four, and it was focused on that inclusivity. But it was focused on encouraging people to join networks as allies, not to join the network because they identified with that particular network or the diverse group that network represented, but to be an ally. And the reason why that's so important and why I feel so proud about it because I really do believe that, by listening and getting knowledge about people's points of view and experiences. It fosters understanding, because you understand a lot more about why people may do things a certain way or what they're going through. And once you foster that understanding, people become more tolerant, they become more inclusive, and that just changes. I don't want to sound like big ideas, but it can change society, never mind the way an organization works. So we kicked off an initiative like that and it really took off, I think. One because it really resonated with the culture of our organization, but two, I think people wanted it.
Speaker 2:I think there were a lot of people, like Michael said, who didn't feel why would I join? What can I bring to this? And it was like giving them permission or that little nudge to do so. And again, like Mike said, we have people with email signatures, with all four cards. I've got a poster in my office, but even if you don't use the hashtag, as Mike said, I have a rainbow flag in my office. I also don't identify as LGBTQ+, but I know that as a senior member of the team, if someone who's dealing with those issues can walk past my office and see that, that hopefully means it's okay, you can be yourself when you come to work and really pushing those initiatives and that coming from the team rather than a directive from the top. I think that was huge and I feel really proud that. I think along the way we became more inclusive and maybe changed people's perception and minds a little bit as well as they got a better understanding of various groups.
Speaker 1:And it's little by little, and obviously, as you say, we need more Michaels. Right, you know.
Speaker 3:but Michael, I'm not sure we do, simone, I'm not sure we do.
Speaker 1:I can feel that on a tote bag or a t-shirt right now, yvonne, I reckon. But, michael, what do you think? What do you wish you'd have known when you were starting out? And I don't know whether that starting out was in your summer job that you're still in, or, or you know, prepping for your masters, or as you've navigated the last 16 years yeah, I think.
Speaker 3:Well, I think what one thing is I would definitely say I sort of touched right. There is like stepping outside your comfort zone. You know, like I said, I've always had those self doubts of whether it's when I stepped up to be co-chair of sort of the local Chester network, whether I stepped up to be on the enterprise level. I've always sort of thought there's probably a bit too much. I'm just gonna be outside. Oh, that's gonna be too much too. It's too important role for me. Um, and I've sort of hesitated over applying and in the end I sort of jumped in and done it and you know what? It was fine. The scariest bit was that just that initial put in putting your hand up and say, yeah, I think I could be interested in this. Um, don't be afraid to sort of, you know, just jump in and step outside your comfort zone, because it really isn't as hard as as, or scary as people sort of think. It's this that initial, or should I do it? Once you've done it, only good things have ever happened, um, for me, um. But what I'd also definitely say is I wish someone sort of said at the start that I think I think probably like a lot of people.
Speaker 3:When you start out on your career, I think I very much thought that careers were sort of ran vertically and to be successful it had to run vertically and you had to keep moving up. And if you stop moving up, you're probably not. You know, you stop being successful right, and, as I imagine, everyone, a lot of people starting off when you come out of university, probably have that thought. That myth is right. You know, I need to be jumping that corporate pattern going up and up.
Speaker 3:But I think if somebody said to me look, this isn't just vertical, you can have success moving horizontally. Take those sideways moves, you know, grow your skill set, learn, you know, new areas and new knowledge, because that in itself one makes you a more rounded person and makes you successful. But it also opens up more opportunities, and that's certainly what I found. You know, opportunities have come from those sideways moves. So I think someone, if someone has sat me down and said look, success isn't just moving up, you know, success is much more rounded than that that definitely would have set me well. So yeah, I'd share that with folks. Simone.
Speaker 1:Thanks, michael and Ivana. What advice would you give that young fine art student or that architecture professional? What advice would you give them with their aspiring to enter the finance industry or not sure which industry they want to go into?
Speaker 2:well, do you know what? I think it's so much advice, um, but uh, um, I. I mean, firstly I'd say, uh, and this is trying not to sound too much, too old, but when you're young you still got your whole life ahead of you. Don't decide what you have to do at the start. Leave your options open. That's okay. And a little bit to michael's point, you don't have to have this strict career path you have to stick to. You can have a wiggly line, and that might mean changing job types or even industries, but I mean around finance.
Speaker 2:I think the biggest thing I would I would tell that architecture student is that finance isn't all about accounting and trading. There's those preconceptions. Right, you need to be an economist or a mathematician, and that just isn't true. There are so many different types of roles within the finance industry and particularly if you look at an organization the size of Bank of America, we employ people with such a diverse skill set and there are so many different roles, career trajectories. You know we have engineers, we have very technical coders, and then we will have lawyers and client service specialists, or auditors and risk experts.
Speaker 2:So such a variety of roles and the great thing is, you can vary your career and you know, as Michael said, he had eight. You know eight roles in 16 years. You can move around and that's good and you learn and you can decide along the way what really sort of suits you. And I think the best advice I can give your goal should be to find something you're good at and that you enjoy doing, and if you can merge those two to find something like that, you have literally hit the jackpot. And then it's not about getting a corporate title or moving up a trajectory, because then you're enjoying and giving back and you're good at it, so that career will almost naturally move with you. So I'd say don't have a strict idea of what you need to be. Be open to opportunities and go with the flow a bit.
Speaker 1:Enjoy the adventure. Exactly, talking of adventure, michael, what was your highlight of your trip to Everest Base Camp last year? That's a tough one, isn't it?
Speaker 3:That is a tough one. Yeah, I mean that was. It's a cliche to say it's a trip of a lifetime, but it was a trip of a lifetime. Yeah, no, it was incredible. I mean I think you can't even describe words, don't do it justice when you actually see Everest up close and the views and scenery and stuff around it was next level. I know what I would say is certainly the challenge of dealing with altitude is horrific and is not to be underestimated. So that definitely was a challenge to deal with. But yeah, I mean feeling when we actually sort of reached there, we've got. You know, you hit base camp, you can see the other sort of guys on the expedition actually going off to do sort of proper Everest, the real mountaineers, not just us pathetic hikers Like that was great to see as well. So, yeah, honestly, such a good trip that and we're even I'm very fortunate, next year is my 15th permanent year at the bank, um, and they, they provide a sabbatical program.
Speaker 3:So in 15th year you get an extra four weeks paid holiday that you can use as a block. So I am already looking at going back to the himalayas again next year, um to hit up a different uh, a different summit called uh island peak, which is a little bit higher, a little bit more challenging. So hopefully that will be even better, simone, than Everest Base Camp. Have me back next year and I'll tell you all about it.
Speaker 1:We absolutely will, scaling great heights in your career. Ivana, michael, thank you so much. We've taught resilience. We've taught leadership. We've taught leaning into opportunities. We've talked about not having a plan right at the start. So many tips, so many tote bags, so many t-shirts to put those messages on. And, of course, we need more michaels uh, iran and michael. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for all the support we gain from the bank of america. Massive thank you for being on the we are power podcast. Thank you, thanks, and thank all of you for listening. Please do stay connected on all of our socials Twitter, instagram and Twitter, Twitter, instagram and TikTok even we are power underscore net and Facebook and LinkedIn. We are power. Please leave a review, get in touch, join the conversation. We love hearing from you. My name is Simone. This is the we Are Power podcast of what Goes on Media Productions.
