We Are Power Podcast
The We Are PoWEr podcast spotlights voices and perspectives that need to be heard. Our weekly podcast, with listeners in over 60 countries, delivers PoWErful conversations that inspire, challenge, and empower... from personal life stories to business insights and leadership lessons.
We share diverse experiences, bold discussions, and real solutions. Whether you're looking for career advice, topical themes, or stories of resilience and success - this is where voices spark change.
We Are Power Podcast
Finding Your Voice: Women Leaders at Royal London
In this episode of the We Are PoWEr Podcast, we sit down with Gail Hall, Director of Operational Excellence, and Emma Griffin, Group Chief Security Officer at Royal London - two powerhouse leaders with stories that move from bars to boardrooms, and everything in between.
We also explore Royal London’s commitment to empowering others, including their brilliant partnership with our Mentor of the Year category at the 2025 #NPWAwards.
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
00:49 Meet This Week's Guests: The Royal London Massive
01:49 Career Journeys: From Bars to Boardrooms
02:59 Understanding Roles at Royal London
08:33 Leadership and Diversity in the Workplace
14:26 Personal Stories and Career Advice
18:27 Empowering Women in Tech and Beyond
21:54 Fun Facts and Final Thoughts
Find out more about We Are PoWEr here. 💫
Hello, hello and welcome to the we Are Power podcast. If this is your first time here, the we Are Power podcast is the podcast for you, your career and your life. We release an episode every single Monday with listeners in over 60 countries worldwide, where you'll hear personal life stories, top-notch industry advice and key leadership insight from amazing role models. As we Are Power is the umbrella brand to Northern Power Women Awards, which celebrates hundreds of female role models and advocates every year. This is where you can hear stories from all of our awards alumni and stay up to date with everything. Mpw Awards and we Are Power Hello, hello and welcome to the we Are Power podcast. Every week, I'm joined by the most amazing guests. This week, I have the Royal London Massive in the podcast studio. Emma and Gail. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Now tell us about your role. What do you do? Oh, oh well, I feel like I'm jack of all trades, master of none in my role. Um, so my my official role title is director of operational excellence, but what that really means is that I lead teams that support all the other great teams at Royal London and customer services and to enable them to be brilliant for customers, and I also have the pleasure of being the sponsor of our diversity and inclusion plan, which is how we made the connection with you.
Speaker 1:And we are very grateful and really delighted that you've come on board as one of our fantastic partners. We are power massive. Welcome. Tell us about you.
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm Emma Griffin. My job title is I'm Group Chief Security Officer, so my job is to protect Royal London's systems, people and customer data.
Speaker 1:Now it's safe to say that neither of you started in this path, because I always think, is how do you describe nobody ever has in a one straight linear path? You don't go to school or go into further or higher education or wherever you go, apprenticeship, and then suddenly go, I'm going to go to be a Royal London person. You didn't start there, did you? Neither of you started there, gail. No, did you start behind a?
Speaker 2:bar, well a bar I am, and in front of a bar.
Speaker 1:I'm behind the bar kitchens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, matt, I did um a lot of barmaid and waitress and, like you know, emma and I's um path is really, really different. Um, because I've actually been at Royal Inns for 27 years, my entire professional working career and I joined it was Scottish Life at the time, which was a mutual in Edinburgh, and I joined it simply because I'd left university with a business degree, hadn't quite figured out what I wanted to do yet, and decided I should probably get a bit more than barmaid and waitress and experience, and so I joined Scottish Life and I loved it and I have never left because I still love it and you still don't know what you want to do now, yeah, other than be great for our customers because that's that's genuinely what I love about my job and tell us what Royal London is, yeah, so Royal London provides pensions and savings investments and also protection for customers.
Speaker 2:So protection is when you need to have some sort of investment for life shocks, you know so like life insurance or critical illness cover, and all of us are going to need a pension in the future. So we provide that. And then the customer service area that I work in we serve those customers and look after their plans for them, and what do you love most about your job, having been there 27 years?
Speaker 2:So I love the difference that we can make because if I think about something like protection right, there's a real emotional driver to that product and pension's quite different. You have pension because you know when you stop working you're going to need an income in the future. Protection you take it out for something that's potentially going to go horribly wrong. You know and you don't really want to have to use your protection plan. You want to have to use your pension plan. You don't really want to have to use your protection plan because it means something bad's happened. You've had quite a life shock.
Speaker 2:So I think we have real social impact, and that's what I love about it and I think that's always challenging, isn't it?
Speaker 1:you know, careers information is always challenging. As you're, you're growing up and as our kids and extended families they're growing up, it's hard to signpost where to go because you, you know how, would you know what that did? And you actually had an interesting path, didn't you, emma? Because one you're not 27 years in, you're less than a year in, aren't you to? To Royal London, but you started, or you part of your sort of life adventure? Career adventure was in ambulance service, yes. So how join the dots, please?
Speaker 3:and I also didn't know what I wanted to be when I was a grown-up. So, um, I was supposed to go to university and, uh, do one of many sort of engineering and sort of science related um courses, and I chickened out two weeks before I was supposed to go because I didn't really know what to do and ended up by accident at London Ambulance Service, worked my way up there and became an ambulance controller, so I was responsible for deciding which ambulances went where for North West London, you know, with Heathrow and Wembley Stadium. Oh, not busy then. Yeah, it was generally quite busy, but it's where I sort of learned sort of crisis and incident management and how to do that From there got into IT and that was. And then I've spent sort of nearly 30 years in a variety of different IT roles of moving around sort of in infrastructure and then turned to the dark side of security and not look back.
Speaker 2:But that's what I think is quite interesting about us, right? So we're totally different backgrounds and we started off on something totally different, but if you just think about that, the things that Emma learned right in the start of that are so valuable in the role that she does now in terms of incident management and barmaid and waitressing.
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 2:Incident management Proper customer service skills there.
Speaker 1:It's all transferable skills, all transferable stuff. That's then kind of stood the test of time for us in our career. I think that's really important and there'll be people listening or watching, you know, and I'm thinking, oh, I'm at that point where I've done this, but I need to go there, but I don't know how to go there. What was that direction for both of you? How did you go from hospitality, which is amazing industry I think it's an amazing place. 98% of us work in hospitality at some point in our careers and in emergency services. What was the? What was the? What was the moment that went?
Speaker 3:for you, for me, um, my appendix burst at work one day and uh, I was rushed to hospital and uh, I had my appendix out and was sent home and was told okay, you've got to rest up for a month and I'm not very good at sitting still and doing nothing. And I kept getting up and trying to do housework. So my partner now husband worked in tech so he'd set me a few challenges. So he took a computer apart and put it in a tea tray and said don't get out of bed. Treat it as a jigsaw puzzle and see if you can get it. Put it back together.
Speaker 3:So I treat it as a jigsaw puzzle and see if you can get it, put it back together. So I built the computer and then the next day he said oh, there's some seed like some floppy disks, see if you can work out how that works. And so I started doing bits and bobs, just picking up books from his, his bookshelf. And when my sick leave had finished he said you're actually really good at this, I think you should give it a go. And so I bravely went back to work and resigned and thought I'm going to start a career in technology, very naively and terrified and, yeah, powered by a makeshift jigsaw and appendicitis, yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:I should have gone first. Mine's as nobler than that, simone. Honestly, that's amazing. Mine's completely different. I'm probably quite traditional in that. At the point when I left university all those years ago Surely not At my age Edinburgh was the hub of financial services. So there's a place called St Andrew's Square and that's where all the head offices were. So your careers were quite often banking or financial services. So I applied to a few and actually I joined Scottish Life because of the feel I got. I got offered for another company on the same. I joined Scottish Life because of the feel I got. I got offered for another company on the same day, but Scottish Life was quite small and it felt like I had a family feel to it and that's actually what attracted me to it.
Speaker 1:And that's really important. You said probably, and, as you say, it wasn't very many years ago, but you know you talk about the family feel. Is that what we now refer to as like the culture you know we talk about? Should we live by our gut like that sometimes?
Speaker 2:absolutely, um, and I think you know those who are listening, I wouldn't stress about the fact that you don't want. You don't know what you want to do, because neither of us knew what we wanted to do and yet we've had, you know, very different but great careers and rewarding careers, um, and you can make those things work, whether you've got a family or or not, and in different cultures and different organisations. You know, I think you should kind of embrace it and remind yourself it's kind of okay and you'll figure it out on the way 100%.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more and it's been very much a part of some of your role being very male-dominated and as a leader in this final services sector, how have you? What's been your approach, what's been the Gail approach to leadership sector?
Speaker 2:how have you? What's been your approach? What's been the the gale approach to leadership? Yeah, so I'm quite hands-on. I'm a very much a people person, so I love being around people, which is why I'm still in customer services after all this time because it's such a people-based environment. I'm and an organization like royal london we're a mutual, so what that means is we're owned by our members and our customers rather than shareholders, um, so that's why there's a sort of real family value based approach.
Speaker 2:Um, and it's that value-based approach that's kind of helped me navigate, because in customer services there are a lot of females and actually we have a really good ratio from a diversity perspective, but less so at the senior manager level. Um, and that's what em and I were talking about. You know that people will traditionally view customer services as having quite a lot of females in there, but at Leadership Rule it's a lot of males and for a long time I've been the only female on the leadership team and how I've navigated that has actually been around making connections with people. So kind of using that love of people and being really interested in people to make connections and to learn from them and get them to be my allies and my advocates, um, and actually I am the leader I am today because of a lot of the men that I've worked with um, because they've kind of taught me what to do and what not to do, because of me using them as role models 100% is that.
Speaker 1:It's whether that's mentorship, sponsorship, advocacy or just someone having your back right, absolutely, absolutely. And what about yourself? What's been your approach to sort of leadership, if you've kind of gone through, because you know, like we said, that gail said here that the the numbers are very low, aren't they at a senior female level, so what has been your?
Speaker 3:leadership. In all honesty, it's changed over time. So earlier on in my career um, there was I had this wrong impression that I had to look a certain way, be a certain way, blend in, mimic the many men that were around me in leadership roles and I try and sort of not stand out as being female and different and little and squeaky, and so I try and emulate that style and it took me some time to have the confidence to be okay with being different and and being okay with having my style and getting excited, getting squeaky and faster as I get excited about something, and then that's okay, it's just me. And so I've changed it to just bring a bit of a more authentic leadership and I think that's really important. As you, you go up the stack and and it helps advertise the importance of diversity is that if we want that diverse workforce, we've got to act it and live it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you've got to be real. You haven't, you. There's no point trying to be. It's not a cookie-cutter model. And you were saying that you've come into this environment because it had that family feel, or it had that nice vibe. So surely that enables you to be you right, doesn't it Exactly?
Speaker 2:and that enables you to be you right, doesn't it Exactly? And I think that's what's quite special about Royal London and everybody that joins Royal London. That's one of the first things they'll say when I ask them how are you finding it in their first week or their first month? And as senior leaders, we host the induction programmes as well, so we'll host them there every three months, and even for the people who've then been there three months, it's the first thing they always talk about is people feel that they can be themselves at Royal London and that you're encouraged to um, it is very much quite an inclusive workplace.
Speaker 1:Naturally, um, and what? How did you ensure that there must have been parts of this 27 year career adventure, that? How did you make sure your voice was heard and your, your, real, you was, was, was there at the table so, um, I, my number one value as as an individual, is authenticity.
Speaker 2:So, um, I, I have to be myself. So actually I was quite different to Emma that I was a bit more naturally outspoken, not in a sort of confrontational way, but just I find it hard not to kind of challenge something or share my view. If it's something I feel quite strongly about, um, and I did, I did have to make sure I really focused on that in the leadership meetings where I was the only sort of female voice, because I did have a very different view. Um, and and it is kind of scary at first when you do it, but I still remember the time when I really challenged my boss at the time on something that he was doing and his response when I challenged was quite personal back to me, not about me, it was actually about my previous boss who had actually been a female, and you know he made this comment about well, ding dong, the witch is dead.
Speaker 2:I'm here now and I just remember thinking I need to actually show that that's not OK. So, even though there's no other females in the room, that's not the value we have here at Royal London, it's inclusive space, and he meant nothing by it in that way, it was one of those throwaway statements in the moment, and so I just challenged him on it, and there was two things for me. It was one that's kind of not okay to use a term like you know, witch and the other big thing for me was well, did you ever stop to think that the reason I'm challenging you is because that's what I think is the right thing to do, not because of we were all yes people to our previous manager.
Speaker 1:So I felt it was undervaluing my opinion, um, and so felt the need to speak out 100%. And there'll be again. There'll be people listening out there and watching out there. I've gone, you know what, I've had that situation today and I should have called it out, or want to call it out. What advice would you give to that young woman or young young guy who's going?
Speaker 2:oh, it's not cool yeah, I think it's take the deep breath, and I think Emma's point about be your authentic self is really important. So if you're not comfortable calling it out in a in a public forum when other people are away, find a way to do it that's suitable for you. So maybe ask to have a chat with them afterwards, because I've done that as well, not because I've not felt comfortable, but because I knew how they might feel, um, if I was to do that in in front of other people, um, so I think it's kind of adapt and read your audience, but also do something that works for you.
Speaker 1:What's been the toughest thing for you as you've navigated these different careers and sectors and shifted those different roles Because we've talked, haven't we is that both your experiences have been totally transferable. But what have you learned about the shift, or the pivot as we say? Do we still say pivot, no?
Speaker 3:For me it's self-confidence At each of these times. I've had to make sometimes some big, scary steps and I'm naturally someone who doubts myself. It's always that bit of imposter syndrome Might seem confident to other people but inside you know not necessarily so much. So it's having that confidence to do that and being okay that sometimes you have to be uncomfortable and that you have to take a leap and you might.
Speaker 3:it might be a big step, but that's okay, you'll get there and you generally do so. Yes, I think having that self-confidence and then you know, um, so, yes, I think having that self-confidence and then you know knowing when to ask for help and, as I say again, that's okay, it's not weakness and you know getting a help and advice is really important and I think that help, advice, guidance, mentorship, sponsorship, advocacy, whatever, whatever we want to call it, who are those people, for both of you, that have either helped, guided um, directed, directed you along your way?
Speaker 3:For me a real mixture, as I say. My husband got me into technology and gave me the confidence and the oomph to go and do it and make that leap of some great managers, both men and women, who've given me the confidence to take the opportunity, take the change, step sideways, step backwards, take a leap forward, and offered advice, and I think some of the more pertinent ones was people giving you advice on that authenticity and it's okay to be you. You don't have to do it the way the person who was in that role before did it. So it's okay to be you. You don't have to do it like the way the person who was in that role before did it, you know. So it's okay to be squeaky and little and you know.
Speaker 3:I don't. I'm not like your average security officer, um, and that's okay yeah, what does average look like, right you?
Speaker 2:know who says what it should look like exactly, and you were absolutely not average, right, um, so mine is like so I've got a whole range.
Speaker 2:Actually I'm lucky to have a whole range. One of them is the individual I talked about where I had to challenge, I would say in the end, and actually quite quickly after that, he became one of my biggest allies, really championed me, kind of really pushed me. The thing is I learned most about him was how to influence and gain support from others at a very senior level and, in particular, the power of using data to do that. I was quite because I'd been in the organization a long time. You know I was trying to influence almost trading on my reputation at Royal London and you know my track record rather than actually using facts, and that worked well for the other people who'd also been there a long time, um, but wouldn't really work for a lot of others so that's, I really learned a lot of good disciplines and that kind of stuff and also about really empowering people to really solve problems and come up with solutions.
Speaker 2:Um, so he was definitely actually one of them, and you know, I've had countless others and they've definitely been the ones who've like you it's exact same as em actually the people that have kind of taught me to believe in myself. Yeah, because we all have self-confidence issues, right, we all have the imposter syndrome, and they've kind of pushed you and stretched you and challenged you and made it safe for you to do that and sometimes it's about unlocking you that authentic.
Speaker 1:It's not like it's making you something. You're someone, you're not. It is that's you inside, um, and the great thing around working for an organization like rural london is you have different campaigns and different you know sort of real things that you can champion, and I know ed and I, which is is really being challenged in the world right now. Let's face it but there's.
Speaker 1:there's something really important that I know is this means a lot to you being the sponsor, doesn't it of this? And what are you most proud of of what you're doing? Because you've got so many different campaigns around tech Menopals I love that name.
Speaker 3:I need a Menopal, not going to lie.
Speaker 1:But you've got the group, but then you've got places for everyone. I think that's really important when it comes to groups.
Speaker 2:We do. So I talk about it at a couple of levels. I'm proud on Royal London's behalf of the networks that we've built up and the great job that those people do that run the networks. You know they do this on top of their job to really make it an inclusive space and really to help educate people on some of the challenges that a lot of people will think to themselves well, those things don't exist today. You know gender equality is not an issue anymore, but actually there's so much that they do from an awareness thing and bringing people together and connecting on that. So really proud of all that stuff Locally in terms of the function that Emma and I work in and the plan that I sponsor, because we've got what?
Speaker 2:About 2,500 of the employees at Royal Undergroups more than half, and it's so broad. Our function. We've got tech and security, we've got change and they have their own different challenges around gender attraction. And then you've got customer service and operations, workplace procurement and digital, and the bit that I love about our plan is we kept it simple. There was a lot in it and I'm really proud of the focus that the team have had on attracting talent as well as retaining and upskilling.
Speaker 2:So one of our big challenges has actually been about attracting talent and getting the right pool, and you should always put the right person for the role in.
Speaker 2:You shouldn't let your targets around you and I drive who gets the role. But actually, if you're struggling to get a diverse pool, then you're always going to have a challenge and then not have a diverse team, and so that's what a lot of our focus has been on. So the stuff that we've been doing in terms of like women in tech events, running STEM sessions, that the team have all done, the connections we've started to build up with yourselves are the things I'm really proud of and the stuff that I see that we can leverage that then has a snowball effect on other stuff, because it doesn't just help attract talent, can leverage, it then has a snowball effect and other stuff because it doesn't just help attract talent. If you take um, people like shika that kind of connected us with you. Then she was presenting at one of your um events recently. That's a great, you know opportunity for her in terms of her own career growth and personal development everyone can.
Speaker 1:I think that's one of our big passions is giving people a platform, the stage, and that's what we're really excited about the partnership and where it can go, and just sometimes be careful what you wish for because these partnerships start, start and then it becomes we are that independent, independent organization. Um, how does this sort of further your wider ambitions around, ed and I sort of the partnership with ourselves and your and I know you've got big, bold ambitions around that attraction piece as well.
Speaker 2:So I think it furthers our ambition in terms of this. It's building up this connected community, I think, because I think when you've got lots of people that are connecting on topics that they all feel passionate about, then I think that the power and the impact can be so much greater. And one of the things I think we always need to be mindful of is constant learning. You know, things change, the world is continually changing, so having those connections means that we can be sharing but also learning best practice and really leveraging that. So I think it really helps us in terms of the ambition, because it gives us a broader reach than if we were just looking locally and hopefully means we can have a broader impact with Royal London if we were just looking locally, and hopefully means we can have a broader impact with Royal London.
Speaker 1:100% and is amplifying those conversations. A couple of fun facts before we leave you, emma, of course, as well as putting together sort of jigsaw pieces during your appendix that were not jigsaw pieces, but you're a black belt right. What has that taught you most about yourself in leadership and resilience terms?
Speaker 3:I think it's that. I think you used the right word. Resilience is that it doesn't matter how many times you get knocked down. It's how many times you get up, that's important.
Speaker 3:Feel a song in that, coming up Every time you get challenged, you know, pick yourself up, carry on and be humble and be respectful. And so, yeah, and train hard, work hard. Whatever you do throughout my career has been about, you know, you've got to be tenacious, you've got to push, you've got to work hard and then you, you get the reward. And so, yeah, it's kind of one of those transferable skills things and gail a chef on the side.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love a bit of what is your most favorite. Well, don't we all right? Uh, what's your dish of choice for you and your daughter?
Speaker 2:because you like cooking together, yeah, so my daughter's seven um and she's definitely got a bit of a passion for making pizza with me and from scrap. So she likes to make the dough and we've kind of gone from me doing quite a lot of it to now. You know I'm literally there in a supervisory capacity to make sure she doesn't fall off step. So pizza, um would be the dish of choice.
Speaker 1:And final, final question what are your superpowers? That's a toughie, isn't it? Just a throw in at the end, that is.
Speaker 2:I don't think I've ever thought of myself having a superpower.
Speaker 3:Everyone's got a superpower. I think I'm calm, under pressure, I think there's not a lot that rattles me. So people quite often say you know, a bit swan-like Feet might be going really crazy at the bottom, but it doesn't show when it, when it needs yeah, I think mine might be positivity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I need to watch. It's not annoyingly positive no, it's um but yeah, mine would be positivity and that it's that always finding the silver lining and helping others too as well look at that between you what a dream team.
Speaker 1:You've got the crisis management, you've got the service approach and you've got the swan like peddling, like crazy. We are so excited to be working with you at Royal London. Uh, emmering Gell, I'm so glad that you've joined us on the podcast today. Thank you so much for joining us and we look forward to our adventures together. Subscribe on YouTube, apple, amazon Music, spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Leave us a review or follow us on socials. We are Power, underscore net on Insta, tiktok and Twitter. We are Power on LinkedIn, facebook and we are underscore Power on YouTube.
