Inside a Police Investigation with DCI Cath Cummings

In this We Are PoWEr episode, we sit down with Detective Chief Inspector Cath Cummings to explore what it means to lead with authenticity, resilience and purpose in one of the most demanding careers.

With more than 23 years in policing, Cath shares her story from aspiring police officer to senior leader, reflecting on the values that have guided her throughout her career. 

Cath also offers insights into the realities of leading major investigations, including the nationally high-profile Ashley Dale murder case. She speaks about balancing the responsibility of delivering justice for victims and their families while managing the personal impact that such challenging work can bring.

You'll hear:
➡️ What inspired Cath to pursue a career in policing
➡️ Why authenticity and honesty are at the heart of effective leadership
➡️ The realities of leading high-profile investigations under intense scrutiny
➡️ Managing pressure, resilience and personal wellbeing
➡️ The importance of mentoring and supporting future leaders
➡️ Why continuous learning has shaped her approach to leadership
➡️ The challenges and rewards of protecting vulnerable people
➡️ Advice for anyone considering a career in policing

Find out more about We Are PoWEr here.  💫

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Kat Cummins

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Hello, hello, and welcome to the We Are Power Podcast. If this is your first time here, the We Are Power Podcast is the podcast for you, your career, and your life. We release an episode every single Monday with listeners in over 60 countries worldwide where you'll hear personal life stories, top-notch industry advice, and key leadership insight from amazing role models. As We Are Power is the umbrella brand to Northern Power Women Awards, which celebrates hundreds of female role models and advocates every year. This is where you can hear stories from all of our awards alumni and stay up to date with everything MPW Awards and We Are Power.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Never imitated, never replicated, singularly wonderful, everybody's wonderful.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

Well, today I am absolutely thrilled and honoured to be joined by the legend that is, Kat Cummins, Power Lister, just amazing human.

Why Policing Was Always The Plan

SPEAKER_04 0:57

Kat, thank you so much for joining. Thank you for having me. Now you have built a career over 22 years in policing, haven't you? Did you always know you wanted to be in policing?

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's a little bit more than that now, 23 and a half years. So did it take some time off? You did, yeah, but that's fine. You can have that, you can set that back. Um so yeah, I did. I always wanted to be in the police. Um uh you don't need to submit any referral or anything, but I had an obsession with serial killers and murders, etc., and thought, um, wow, could I do that? You know, things that you see on the TV, the books, etc. So, yes, that is weird. Um, so we always had a plan. I was always gonna go to uni because I was told if you go to uni and get a degree, you might get promoted quicker. That's not the case. Um, so my plan was join the police, but if I don't get in, what am I gonna do? So I um thought, well, do you know what? Maybe teaching. So I applied to different unis and I got an interview offer at Plymouth University. I lived in Blackburn at the time, so I had to get the bus down. It took eight and a half hours to get to Plymouth. I know, it was painful. Yeah, yeah. And um went into the interview and he said, So tell us why you want to be a teacher. I said, Well, actually, I want to be in the police, but if I don't get in, then I'd I'd like to teach. Yeah, I didn't get accepted. You're my plan B right from the start. Yeah, so uh so off to Edge Hill, I went and uh and did English instead. So um that's where my journey started with Mercedeside Police as soon as I'd finished there with the degree. And tell me, just you just talked about serial killers.

SPEAKER_04 2:36

Who was the serial killer you wished you could have been responsible for bringing down?

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Wow, um I've never uh never thought of it like that. But the Fred and Rose West murders, I always thought, wow. I even read the SIO's book, um, which again is sad, but I thought, how do you how do you solve that? How do you go from a missing person report and some concerns that have been missed about one of the children um to just move on to dismantling a whole house? It was um that that was fascinating, I thought.

SPEAKER_04 3:13

Yeah, there's a that's that's bringing in a whole lot of stakeholders into the mix there, isn't it? Not just your your tent that you pop up in the garden.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

Um and you have a mantra that I love. I love this. In a world where you can be anything, be yourself.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Yeah, absolutely. Um someone said to me once, um, well, what well, what's your brand? And uh, you know, I was thinking about going for a promotion process. Uh, your brand's not well known, and I thought, I don't know what my brand is, and just me. Um, and so it always stuck with me that, and I thought I don't need to be put into a box just as good as anybody else that's going for it. And so, yeah, so that's always stuck with me that.

SPEAKER_04 3:52

I love that because I think that's it, you know, we talk a lot, isn't it, about bringing your whole self to work, isn't it? So, and don't try and be other people, exactly. Don't try because that person's taken, that role is taken. So I I I'm always a bit like you be you. Yeah, absolutely. I'm the same. And how would you describe yourself in three words? I could give you a sentence, a push. I'll negotiate up.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Um three words to describe myself. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Um authentic, uh, honest, motivated.

SPEAKER_04 4:29

And that sticks with the authentic and honest sticks with your mantra, right? Yeah, yeah, I suppose it does. And your experience, so there's your personal brand, me. Yeah. That's what you need. Your experience spans so many areas from domestic abuse, child protection, through to homicide and covert policing. That's some portfolio, isn't it? You talk about people at senior levels of their career having a portfolio career flipping a kick. That's that's such a range. But when you look back, what has been the toughest uh part of that work?

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Um

Ashley Dale Case Under Pressure

SPEAKER_02 5:02

it's all it's all tough, but in different ways.

SPEAKER_03 5:07

Um but I think the toughest time of the career of my career was um the Ashley Dale merger investigation. It was significantly high profile. Um, there'd already been a firearmed murder the week before, which was Sam Rimmer. And then within 48 hours, there was little Olivia that was also facing murdered. So uh that was significant for Merseyside and for Merseyside police. Um, there was a lot of pressure on all the senior investigating officers involved there, on the staff. We also had a film crew in with us um that had been in uh several months before. Um, but once the murders happened, they were in a well, it was a prime location for them to focus on on the murder investigations. Um, but walking through the door every morning with minimal sleep, having a lot of pressure on on your shoulders. Um a lot of senior officers and uh the home secretary all wanting updates, and then you walk through the door and there's a film crew ready to mic you up and start following you around. So you just every move was being um watched, so that was uh significant time. And then at the same time, uh my mum was terminally terminally ill at the time. So what people don't see on the documentary is the backwards and forwards to hospitals over in Burnley, that was an hour's drive there and back, and having all that to contend with, it was yeah, a lot of resilience needed.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

And and and you can't just go and buy a bit of a uh a measure of resilience. How did you deal with that from being in front of the cameras to having the home secretary on the phone to then having that hour mental drive? It's much been a hard drive over to to see your man.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Yeah, yeah. Um I don't know how we got through it. I honestly look back and think, I don't know how I did that, but um I've got an amazing partner, which was great. So, and I couldn't have done it without her.

SPEAKER_04 7:14

And what do you think you learn most about yourself in that time?

SPEAKER_03 7:21

That I'm probably more resilient than I think uh because I got through it, um and to get a successful outcome as well for for Ashley's mum uh and her family and her friends, that that was just um yeah, that was phenomenal. And that was that's not just down to me, that's the team around me as well. Um but yeah, that that was amazing. So to come all the way through that and my mum would have been proud.

SPEAKER_04 7:49

And you talk about your mum, what's your mum's name?

SPEAKER_03 7:51

Barbara.

SPEAKER_04 7:51

Barbara and your partner. We all need people around us to hold us up at times, don't we? Even if we're the toughest, most resilient, strongest northern power women we know, right? Yeah but the importance of that and being vulnerable at times, I imagine you've you had to be yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

Um and some standouts as well. I had um two detective inspectors, both male, um, they were amazing. And I've made sure that they know about that because there was times where I had to take a step back, not for long, but I knew I could trust them to just run with it, and they take additional pressures off me as well. So they were fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 8:28

And a thread through everything you've done is that kind of it is that vulnerable and authentic leadership? Going back to the you being you from sort of growing up to going to uni to going for your plan B teacher job and then into the policing. What do you think your leadership style has been? Do you think it's been consistently authentic and vulnerable?

SPEAKER_03 8:52

That is one thing I can definitely say, yes. Um and visible what people get with me is I'm there, it's me, um, and people c seem to come along with me. So um again, I think that's down to being authentic, you know, there's uh they're not being asked to do anything that I wouldn't d do myself or that I haven't done. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

And what is was the Ashley Dale murder for getting that resolution for the family and for Ashley was that has to be one of the most rewarding times.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Absolutely, yeah, yeah. To to hear a jury stand up and my heart was going, and I'd said to Julie, can I just sit behind you on your shoulder when we go we next go back into the courtroom? Um because it was a journey where we'd come along together, and she didn't know until the trial about my mum, and then I'd lost my mum in that uh period of time. Uh, and then she did, and I just said, Well, I've done this for you, can I just sit behind you? And then when you hear the four-person stand up and say guilty, oh my days, and then it's like white noise, you can't hear um anything else apart from your own heartbeat, and just thinking, what's the next one gonna say, what's the next one? And it was just phenomenal. But Julie then standing up and just grabbing hold of me and saying, you know, thank you, thank you for everything. Because they heard and saw things in that trial that at the time and before trial, I couldn't tell them, told them a lot, but they understood professionally that they couldn't hear everything for certain reasons until they went, and they just couldn't believe the level of detail that we got into and what we'd found out um during the course investigation. So to then receive that thanks from them um was amazing.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

And what about the the film crew?

Leading With Cameras In The Room

SPEAKER_04 10:47

How was that? Like, because you've got a job to do, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:52

Um, well, it didn't go down well when I first briefed the teams that the crew were coming in. Um did you break that news? Yeah, well, as best I could to be fair, but um, yeah, it was like tumbleweeds. I could look at everyone's face of I'm not doing that. And I thought, um, don't worry, it's me that they're interested in, it's me that they'll be following round. Um, and they, you know, there was a lot of reluctance of people not wanting to engage in it. Um, but they'd been with us that long. Um I was concerned when we had what we call uh SIO conferences, so everybody comes together, I chair it, and I go round a room. Everyone has a voice uh and everyone has an opportunity to give ideas, suggestions, etc. But update on what they've done, and it's uh it's it's great seeing a jigsaw start to come together because everyone's got a little piece to do, and then we all bring it back. But not everyone likes talking in front of everyone. There was a a lot of officers all in uh a conference room, and I just thought with the crews being there that they wouldn't speak, and then the nervousness is it hindering the investigation because you I've got to know everything that's going on to then make other decisions. Um, and at first there was the quietness um where you just had to say, right, they're stopping recording. This is me and us now. We all need to speak. You can forget about that because it's further down the line, just take no notice that they're here, ignore them. There'll be loads of editing. Now can we start again? And then people just started to forget that they were there. So um became part of the furniture. But even that, one of the uh producers from LA Production actually came because they've been involved, not necessarily with the filming, but a lot of the editing and bringing the documentary together, they sat all the way through the trial. Um and again, seeing the seeing people breaking down, crying, seeing it come to that conclusion. Um there is no feeling like it that when you've been on an 18-month plus journey to hear then someone has felt that members of the jury have understood what you presented to them and then come back with that decision, and it being the right decision is just phenomenal. I can't describe how it feels.

SPEAKER_04 13:12

But having that film crew there, often you can worry and think, gosh, what if it's represented wrong? How it's misedited, you only have to watch some of the reality shows to see that. This is this is a reality show on a whole different level, right? Yeah, um, but it seems like they were part of the team, they weren't against you.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Yeah, they they they did actually feel part of the team, um, which was uh bizarre. But what I'd also say is, yeah, there were challenging times, it was challenging times where I've had to have difficult conversations, shall we say, with people, and I forgot they were filming, so you'd have to go back and say, you cannot use that. Um, and they were really respectful and they engaged us all the way through with the edits we got to see um with chief officers uh and various other people around the table, the first edits of an episode and it rolled like that, and you know, I've never been involved in anything like that before, but having that professional challenge or for these reasons that you can't include that, etc. And they were they were really respectful. That brings me on to um Ashley's mum. So this was all going on, and at any point, if if Julie had said you are not doing this, then it wouldn't have ever been aired, it'd have stopped. Um, and I knew that. But the uh I think one of the toughest things I had to think about telling Julie going round on a on a family visit was about this documentary. It was the only thing that made me nervous. Um, not about updates, not about some of the challenges that we had through the investigation, it was about we've got a film crew that's been in filming for that the last several months about the murder investigation of your daughter, um, which was a shock to her. Um we introduced her with the production company, she met some of the film crew, and then you know, f how she had that strength, but then Julie got involved in it, and it was good to have her part of it and her part of that decision making.

SPEAKER_04 15:09

But is this where, you know, through your career, one of the key threads is protecting vulnerable people? Yeah. And Julie will have been as strong as she is and but equally super vulnerable during this whole time. Has that always been a pull for you uh working with vulnerable individuals?

SPEAKER_03 15:29

That's why I joined. I've always wanted to do the right thing, and I I can't bear seeing injustice to people and especially I mean that was due that'll have been Julie's or one of the most vulnerable times of her um life with no decision making, just everything put in front of her. Um so yeah, that's well, that's the main pull of why I joined police service.

What Major Investigations Look Like

SPEAKER_04 15:55

And for people who aren't sure, you know, you will have been aware of the high-profile case of Ashley Dale, but on a day-to-day basis, you're leading complex, high-profile investigations, aren't you, every day? How for people who are watching or listening today, what does that day actually look like? And I'm imagining no two days are the same. But do they get as does it ever get, I'm not gonna say simpler, more routine, or is every single one completely unique? Sounds like a daft question that, but no, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

There's so there's there's some days you walk through, you you never know what you're gonna walk into every day, so it is different. Um it's far from mundane. Um there are times where things settle down, and I suppose I talk about that as as my norm because I'll go in and that'd be normal to me because I've done it so long. But if you speak to other people, it's um it's chaos.

SPEAKER_04 16:53

And you know, family liaison, working with Julie, working with other families is key for you. Um but what does it mean to you personally? How do you look after yourself? Where's your self-care? Don't be looking down the back of the country, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Um yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Um yeah, I don't really reflect like that. I'm uh more focused on being bothered about other people, really. But you're right, should uh self-reflect and self-care more.

SPEAKER_04 17:24

And what do you do in what do you do in your down times? What's your kind of free your mind day off? Dare I say it's probably difficult to ever have a day off, but what do you do with that time?

SPEAKER_03 17:38

Love the late districts walking, just being out there in the fresh air can't beat it.

SPEAKER_04 17:43

And the wind and rain. It's always windy, it's the most beautiful place in the wind and rain in the world, isn't it? And the rest, exactly, yeah. Other brands are available. Yes, absolutely. Um, and has you have you, you know, you 23 and a half years now I've put the year and a half back on now, right? Into the you know, you're in a senior leadership role. Have you seen that change? Is that you know often you can go into senior roles and you you lose some of the stuff that you love doing? Have you still been able to keep doing the the stuff that you love?

SPEAKER_03 18:12

I have um up to the point of the the DCI role as the SIO in in the major incident team, because I just think that that's the last kind of operational um role that you will have once you start going through the ranks. But that's probably not so true because going up again, I'd probably find myself um as a detective superintendent potentially doing similar. But I've just got you just end up having a greater um what's the word I'm looking for, sphere of influence where you can see things that aren't working so you can make sure they do work for the good of everybody, um and the and obviously the public. I've not really answered that very well have I.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

No, it's all no, that's all good. That's

Role Models And A Call To Join

SPEAKER_04 19:01

all good. Let me talk to you about role models. Who are the role models that you saw when you joined up?

SPEAKER_03 19:08

Ah, when I joined, okay. So um my gran was a big influence, uh, and in particular enjoying. She didn't want me to join though, however, it wasn't safe, um, or she would think. Um my mum always wanted to join, but she was too short, so she didn't get into Lancashire, uh, women's police. Probably the best thing, really. She was a little bit feisty, my mother. So but she was dead proud of it. Be more Barbara. Be more Babs, yeah. Um she will she was dead proud of me getting into the police. Um, and because she'd probably wanted to done it as well. Um but yeah, I was gonna say a phrase she'd come out with, but probably best not.

SPEAKER_04 19:53

It's okay. We can we can we can put we can put an alert on it. Say it. What would Babs say? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

Babs would say, get the bastards, Catherine, and give them a dig on the way down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:03

100%.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

Yeah, but you can't quite do that.

SPEAKER_04 20:05

And if this if there's someone that's watching or listening now who thought, you know what, I didn't really see this. I'm not sure policing is for me, or or never thought for me, but actually I'm really motivated and inspired by what you say. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_03 20:18

Join. It's the best career, and it's not a job. Um, because anyone can go and get a job, well, not just anyone, but it's absolutely a career. It's it is challenging, you know, it's not always easy. Um but to and this this sounds so simple. When you get a thank you card sent in by a victim or the member of the public, honestly, it blows you away because you think you've had the time to go out and I've obviously impacted on you because you've thought about it as you've gone to a shop, you've bought a card, you've thought about what to write, then you've gone and got a stamp, and then walked to go and post it.

SPEAKER_04 20:58

And no one does that anymore. It's a WhatsApp, it's a text. It's a or it's a no time to do it.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

Yeah, and it means a lot, really does.

Karaoke Shyness And Self-Belief

SPEAKER_04 21:07

Now, I've got to ask this, but picture Kath back at the age of 10 years old. You won karaoke.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:15

Yeah?

SPEAKER_03 21:16

What was your song, Kath? Hopelessly devoted to you by Olivia Newton John. Yes, there was a bit of an obsession. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:23

And and does that still come out of the locker at any point now? Family gatherings, parties, you know, does it does it come out?

SPEAKER_03 21:31

Every now and then, and there's even a cutout of Olivia that's in the loft. She comes down every birthday. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:39

I don't even quite know where to go with that, quite fair. Now, who who would you sing with now if you were gonna do another duet? See, I'm a big fan. Ireland's in the stream, Dolly. You know? Yeah. Gotta be more Dolly.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Yeah. What would what would your song of choice be now? And I do have a song of choice.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Oh, yeah, but I can't remember it's gonna have nice. It's normally in Florida after a few beers. Um black velvet. Oh nice. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:11

I can sing you now. Not now, really? No. Okay, we'll get you back. We'll get back up for a Christmas edition. After hours edition. That's what we'll do. Couple of couple of wines and we'll have you on that, on that. It's all it's all good. Looking back to that 10-year-old calf, where was that? Where was the karaoke competition?

SPEAKER_03 22:30

So we used to go as a family to uh a caravan site in North Devon. Um we used to go for three weeks. Oh wow every now and then we were allowed to take a friend. Um and I am extremely shy. Yeah, you wouldn't believe it, but I am. And the first week I stood up in front of a load of people. You see, my mum and dad, they used to drop me and my little sister off, and they'd have kids' clubs and all kinds on. And then on a Friday night in the the big, I don't know, what do you call it, like the pub and entertainment area, there was karaoke.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

And um I first signed up and won um singing the Olivia Newton John with a big fringe, bumbag on, hands behind my back, stood straight, um, and won this raccoon thing, cuddly toy. Took that back to the caravan. The second week I joined up to do it again and I won again. Two raccoons. My mum and dad, two raccoons. Oh, but you had a sister. I did. Yeah, Sharon is carrying. Yeah, but my mum and dad thought have been stealing. She took me, took me straight back down and pleaded my innocence. They went, no, she's won it. And they were like, she would never stand up in front of a room full of people. Anyway, the third week they came down to watch me and won again.

SPEAKER_04 23:48

You can only have so many raccoons, can't you? Of course you can. And bad fringe and bumbag. Oh, yeah, yeah. I used to cut my fringe myself and it was always a little bit ropey, but you know, it was a woman of an era. It was all it was all good and just stood wonky. Um, what advice would you give to that 10-year-old Kath now, other than get on that stage and stand up straight?

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Yeah, exactly. Uh, believe in yourself.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

And do you like you you talked about the when you were going through the trial and the the the two guys used, you know, kind of the times you had to kind of go, I'm need to just take a moment here to kind of step

Mentoring Masters And Lasting Legacy

SPEAKER_04 24:21

out. And they leaned in. Is there a structure of kind of that mentorship sponsorship within within the the service, within the police service?

SPEAKER_03 24:30

Oh yeah. Um, I mean, I even do mentoring coaching myself as well. Um, because I've had a mentor, um it's someone you can sound off to, look for ideas, look up to, um take yourself out of a comfort zone and have that honest conversation and that chat of where you're up to, and it's inside work and outside work. Um so there are some good schemes and there's some great people at at uh May's side.

SPEAKER_04 24:57

And how do you keep learning? You've you've done or doing a master's? Done. You're done? Finally. How did you find the time to do that? And what what motivated you've got your degree, so what motivated you to go back and do a master's?

SPEAKER_03 25:10

Because it was in senior leadership. Um I looked at the opportunity through work to be funded to do, it was a master's degree apprenticeship. So it was actually two qualifications all at the same time, a busy job, then mum not being well, and thought, what am I doing here? It was supposed to be two years part-time. I think it took me three and a half years before I graduated, but you know, I achieved it. Um when I looked at what it entailed, I thought to go to the next level um in strategic leadership. I thought this contains a whole host of things that will take me out of my comfort zone. It's not policing, it's nothing to do with policing at all. Um, and can I do it? Well, one can I learn um and what can I reflect and take back at work to make me better? So that's why I went for uh the double whammy of a master's degree apprenticeship. Yeah, it was hard. But it's done. It's done, it's done, it's done.

SPEAKER_04 26:04

What do you want to be remembered for? What do you want the CATH legacy to be beyond the trial, beyond the film star? Documentary star. Two million views, was it? Or something like 2.1 million. 2.1 million a night. What you must have one of them I am A I M D B, is it, when you get referenced, you'll probably have one of them. Will I? Yeah. You'll be getting an equity card before we know it. What do you want to be remembered for?

SPEAKER_03 26:26

What type of I'd like to pee, so I can talk now about people that have influenced me or supported me through uh my career. It'd be lovely to think that there's other people that would say, oh Kath, Kath helped me out along the way. I think that's how I'd like uh the legacy to be left.

SPEAKER_04 26:49

Well, the one thing I would like you to do now is this is gonna be the most difficult thing of your career, which is to delve into our power jar. So our power jar is a jar full of questions by previous guests, okay? Okay. I mean, literally, it's tricky this. Like, so I'm gonna pass the jar to you, Kat. Right. You pick a question out, take a pause, think who the heck was that one? Yeah. Oh, you're gonna love this. I should have brought the glasses. Do you want mine?

SPEAKER_03 27:19

Might do. I'll have a go. So I've got to read this. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

What's a small thing that reliably makes you happy even on a busy day?

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Honest answer? Yes.

SPEAKER_04 27:36

Oh look at that. That's every birthday, Valentine's. You said it on a podcast. And and I have one just because of everything you've done. Who would play you in the story of your life?

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Um, I'd like Saranna Jones to play me.

SPEAKER_04 27:56

Oh yes! What a great that's a good bill in that, Kath. It is a good bill in. Kath Cummins, keep being awesome, keep being brilliant. I know you never stop. You're going straight from here to go and talk to students at Edge Hill. You're involved in our PowerPoint for students at the City of Liverpool College. Thank you for all the stuff you do that equally people don't see as well. Thank you. For vulnerable, authentic, and outstandingly you. Thank

How To Subscribe And Follow

SPEAKER_04 28:22

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