S9 EP5: Tim O'Neil, Government Goodies

Tim brings strong insight into planning and development of Health projects in one of the most remote regions in Australia.

If you'd like to learn more about the AHDC, please connect with us on our website www.aushdc.org.au or on LinkedIn at linkedin.com/company/aushdc.

Transcript

[00:00:00] David Cummins: G'day and welcome to the AHDC podcast series Health Design on the Go. I'm your host, David Cummins, and today we are speaking to Tim O'Neill, who is the acting Director of the Design Office in the Department of Infrastructure Planning and Logistics in the Northern Territory. 

[00:00:15] Based in Palmerston in the Northern Territory, Tim has been working with the Department for over 23 years, which makes him a specialist in his field. We welcome Tim as part of our government goodies series and look forward to hearing more about Tim, his work in in the Northern Territory and the Department of Health. 

[00:00:29] Welcome Tim. Thank you for your time to be here.

[00:00:32] Tim O'neill: Thanks David. 

[00:00:33] David Cummins: 23 years in the Northern Territory. Are you from the Northern Territory? 

[00:00:37] Tim O'neill: No, I'm not. I was actually born in Brisbane. 

[00:00:39] Moved up here when I was about seven years old. My dad got a two year contract and he's gone back to Queensland and left me here. 

[00:00:46] David Cummins: It's a beautiful part of the world.

[00:00:48] And the thing that always amazes me, especially with infrastructure is the amount of space that you have available to you, especially being in Sydney, is that a delusion that there's plenty of space, or would you have some of the same spatial requirements and restrictions that we have? 

[00:01:03] Tim O'neill: We certainly have some problems with service land, particularly in remote communities.

[00:01:08] Urban areas isn't too bad but certainly in remote communities, there's a lack of service land, so it's an expensive project to get any of our developments up. 

[00:01:19] David Cummins: So when you say servicing, you mean the availability of services to that land? Is that what you mean?

[00:01:24] Tim O'neill: Yes, correct. So power and water and sewage and communications. The further that you spread these things out, the more expensive it becomes to put in to start with and to manage through the maintenance cycle. 

[00:01:36] David Cummins: Yeah, I must admit, having only built in major metropolitan areas, that's something I did not think of.

[00:01:42] What would be some of the other challenges that people might not be aware of when it comes to infrastructure health and building up in the Northern territory? 

[00:01:49] Tim O'neill: There's certainly a finite pool of resources in the Northern Territory, so skilled people, not only design, but in construction as well.

[00:01:59] So we've got several tier one type contractors in the Northern Territory that do a fantastic job for us but it doesn't take a lot to get the whole town jumping. They only need one major project and people are fairly busy. 

[00:02:14] David Cummins: One of the hospitals I'm well aware of up in the Northern Territory is the, the Darwin Base Hospital and I think most Australians are well aware of how specialist it is and how important it was, especially with the Bali bombings a few years ago, and the Burns Unit. 

[00:02:26] How important is that relationship of infrastructure to the Asia-Pacific region? Especially when it comes to places like Indonesia.

[00:02:34] Tim O'neill: We're in such close proximity to all these areas. We're closer to Bali than we are to Brisbane or Perth. We're the first port of call with a lot of these emergencies that do come up from time to time and we're a major service centre.

[00:02:47] At the moment we're going through some flooding in the Northern Territory and there's plenty of people being pulled into Darwin right now. Probably about seven or eight hundred people from the coverage area. 

[00:02:57] David Cummins: Wow, that's amazing. You are right it is such an important area for that region.

[00:03:01] Besides the main Darwin Base hospital, what are the health facilities in the area that people might not be aware of? 

[00:03:08] Tim O'neill: Okay, so Royal Darwin Hospital is a large teaching type campus. It has it's it has a multitude of functions and deliveries there. But just down the road in Palmerson, we've got a, we've got another hospital.

[00:03:21] Palmen Regional Hospital, which augments the Royal Darwin Hospital operations. From there, we've we've got remote health centres right across the, the Northern Territory, particularly across the top end. And a lot of this infrastructure is aging at the moment. It was built by the Commonwealth Field over 50 years ago.

[00:03:41] So and all the way down to Alice Springs. We we've got the Alice Springs Hospital down there. Each, each of the major towns has a, has a hospital, so one in Catherine in 10 Creek and Alice Springs, and two in Dallas. 

[00:03:56] So what would be some of the, the specialist design principles or innovations that would be unique to that region?

[00:04:04] Obviously building in Sydney is very different to building in Alice Springs, like not only from a. We're the protection point of view, but as you talk about the services and durability and, and obviously connecting to country for a lot of, lot of the patients in those regions, like what are some of the design principles that people wouldn't even think of who have only done metro?

[00:04:23] Yeah, it's I guess there's issues around you, you climatic factors, particularly in, in Darwin because it is a harsh environment. We have cyclones, we have earthquakes We've got termites that are, that are as big as your thumb that will eat through all sorts of things. They'll eat through concrete to get to cabling.

[00:04:46] So there's there's some pest type issues, harsh climatic issues. Obviously cyclones is the big one for structural engineers in, in the top part of the Northern Territory. So there, there's a whole range of. Of those sort of problems. But I think it comes down to the number of people, the number of specialists that we have in the Northern Territory and how, how thinly that was spread across, across the whole territory.

[00:05:16] So, it's Like I said before, it, it doesn't take much to get the whole place moving and once it's moving it's hard to get something new happening as well. Would, 

[00:05:28] David Cummins: would the, the isolation of some of these areas determine the design in reference to resources, materials? Constructability buildability, or is it pretty much what, whatever you want, you can get.

[00:05:41] Like surely that's a factor as well. In reference to construction and design. 

[00:05:45] Tim O'neill: Every, we, we don't make a lot in the Northern Territory. A lot. Nearly everything needs to be brought in from, from elsewhere. So you can get. Almost anything that you want, but it's not entirely suitable. Like I said, we've got a, a really humored type environment in the top end, but in Central Australia is is arid.

[00:06:05] So we've got, we've got quite a, a diverse climatic issues to to deal with. As far as distances goes, it's really hard to provide services in very remote places. It's hard to get people there. If you can think about. All of our buildings don't leave us. We maintain them forever. So it's really important that we, we can maintain them easily.

[00:06:30] So if you can think about, say you've got a, a leaky toilet in large, Manu, it would probably cost you more to get a plumber there than to fix the toilet. Yeah, so you've gotta put them on a plane to get them there. There's a, there's probably about $2,000 to $3,000 in airfares and then you've got a tap washer or something that's five bucks to change.

[00:06:55] So we've got those sort of challenges, particularly in the maintenance cycle where it's an expensive place to do business because of the distances involved. 

[00:07:07] David Cummins: Yeah, that's a, that's a really interesting point. So knowing that you, you pretty much build for life. Surely one of those factors as well would be sustainability.

[00:07:16] Like, is everything double glaze, solar panels everywhere, or, or you just maintain it as best you can in until it, until it collapses. Like surely that's a 

[00:07:25] Tim O'neill: factor as well. I guess we've been on a, on a fairly decent program over the last five or six years of, of replacing a lot of our aging infrastructure.

[00:07:36] Like I said, it was built by the Commonwealth about 50 years ago. So it's starting to be impossible to maintain and not fit for purpose any longer. With when, when we're replacing buildings we. We are adopting Section J 2019 for all of our new projects that that create indoor air conditioned envelope that's standard across all of our projects right now.

[00:08:02] And it's a really important factor in the Northern Territory because of those services. We have problems with power supply and water supply. Many communities don't have access to water for a large chunk of our dry season. So it is, it is really important that we can conserve as much power and water in particular, in these, in these areas.

[00:08:27] And most of the time we are looking for, for power and water neutral solutions. So we don't use anymore than we're using at the moment. We harvest drain water we reuse gray water. We provide solar panels to a lot of our facilities. So they're, they're generating their own power. We we insulate very well all the walls and ceilings under slabs if we, if we get to that sort of point.

[00:08:53] So, yeah, it, it is really important. It is hard to generate the power in these remote locations sufficiently. 

[00:09:02] David Cummins: Yeah, that the things you just talked about, I, I know plenty of buildings in metro regions that don't have half of those, initiatives. So that's, that's fairly interesting that you're actually, you'd, you'd lead in the way, but through a necessity versus, versus once.

[00:09:17] So, but you wouldn't, you wouldn't go like a full electrification of a. Hospital, would you, you would, you would purely rely on solar, which is electrification, but I'm, I'll do that question again. But you would, is there an opportunity to have a fully electric hospital or building in the Northern Territory knowing that you've got so much access to, to the sun?

[00:09:40] Is that, is that, is that a possibility or It, it wouldn't be feasible. 

[00:09:44] Tim O'neill: It's certainly the direction that we're heading in. So we've got some, some new buildings that are coming up that we're trying to. Turn into showcase type type projects for, for E S D and I, I, I guess we're looking at a a carbon neutral type solution.

[00:10:01] We've got our, we've got an e s d section within within the department that is very proactive in this space and, and, and were serious about it. That, 

[00:10:12] David Cummins: that's really good to hear because I, I know a lot of government agencies have got a commitment, but it's, it's, it's still very, very hard to implement, but, I'm just absolutely, my mind is blowing how, how amazing you guys are in reference to literally being on the fourth front, front foot with this.

[00:10:27] Because again, I, I've been working in this industry for a while and some of the stuff you just mentioned, I, I, I just haven't seen in, in some hospitals. That's amazing. Yeah. 

[00:10:35] Tim O'neill: I should qualify. It is just government buildings at the moment and it is, there is. A premium that comes along with doing this sort of work which isn't always adopted by the private industry.

[00:10:48] Yeah. 

[00:10:49] David Cummins: That, that makes sense. In, in reference to some of the local indigenous communities, how important is. Strong design for making sure they feel comfortable in a health space and making sure that they feel comfortable enough to come to a space for treatment where they may not necessarily want to come into a hospital.

[00:11:08] I know, I know some indigenous community, community members get a bit fearful. So how important is design and how do you overcome those 

[00:11:14] Tim O'neill: challenges? Oh, absolutely David. We spent a lot of time doing consultation in communities and with our. Particularly the healthcare providers we it, there are some particular issues that we do need to, to address.

[00:11:29] But our problem is that every community is different. So in some communities you might not it might not seem a good idea to. Have the men and, and women's entrance coming in through the same place, and they might want to have separate en entry points but in another community that's not an issue.

[00:11:47] So it's I find that it's not a cookie cutter approach for the work that we do. Every job is, is special in its own way, and every community's a little bit different. Apologies.

[00:12:05] Nah. Okay. Hey, see my Neil. I'm good. Good. Hey, Kimberly. I'm just doing a podcast thing at the moment. Yeah. Okay. See ya.

[00:12:24] David Cummins: It's totally not an issue. Okay. That, so that was about so you talked about what for, so you were just finishing talking about the Aboriginal maybe just go the importance of I said how important is design? You talked about the two entrances. So I think, I think you could almost finish, finish there with the consultation.

[00:12:39] So yeah, I, I think, I think you pretty much finished that. I, I, Tim sorry. Troy will find it there, so I'll just go again. So. So noting the importance of consultation for local communities and noting the importance of treatment for these for that's a bad question. So, noting the importance of consultation for communities.

[00:12:59] How important then is the models of care to get it right, knowing that there's so much variance between community groups and, and certain certain departments and certain areas in the Northern 

[00:13:08] Tim O'neill: Territory. Model of care is really important. For design. We, we need to understand how the, the client intends to operate.

[00:13:17] It, it doesn't need to be absolutely detailed down to the, to the dots, crossing the Ts and.in the i's sort of thing. But we've gotta have a, a generally good idea of the services that the client wants to provide and how they wanna provide them. It's And it's, it's not just health. It's right across the board.

[00:13:37] It's every every organization has a way of doing things. And and even within the same government department, you might find some, some small differences between what we're doing. I guess in having, having said that, we we rely on the o Australian Health Facility guidelines a lot as our starting point.

[00:13:56] With all of our projects it's a, it's an excellent resource for us but like I said, a starting point and it helps us through these models of care as well. I usually find that we need to get a health planner involved as well to interpret this and almost be an in between person, between the client and the Australian officer of the guidelines.

[00:14:18] Yeah, we do do things a little bit differently up here from everywhere else, and I'm not sure if that's because of the people or the place or, or our existing facilities and, and how we currently use them. And. I, I guess the trap for me is to ensure that we're not reproducing something that we've been doing again and again and again.

[00:14:40] Because people are just used to working that way. It might not be the best way to be able to do it. And I find the, the input, particularly from specialist health planners that all come from, from southern states we don't have any of those sort of people here. It's invaluable and. Our local healthcare providers, trust them.

[00:15:03] They can see that they know what they're talking about, which is fantastic. 

[00:15:06] David Cummins: Yeah, I'm, I'm a big, big, big supporter and fan of health planners and clinical health planners. I think, I think, the whole 90% planning, 10% execution, and I've certainly been on projects where we haven't used them and it has not, Oh God.

[00:15:18] Well, let's put it that way. Yeah. So you've been in the industry for over 23 years. Like what would you say are some of your biggest lessons or teachings that future generations can pick up and not make the same mistakes? 

[00:15:31] Tim O'neill: You've gotta talk to the right people to start with. A lot of our briefs come through that are quite high level, and it, it takes a lot to, to work through that to get to the point where we are happy with what we're providing.

[00:15:46] So number one is consultation and make sure you're talking to the right people. The other thing is that once you've got an idea of what you wanted to do, you want to be talking to as many people as possible within the operational space. So the people that can actually, that, that are doing the work day in, day out that understand their challenges it is really important to, to get their take on it and develop working groups that work.

[00:16:15] And, and we get results and we resolve solutions. I guess the other one is that, and it might be a Northern Territory type thing in that if you're unsure of something, go and have a look. Don't rely on other people. Actually get, get in the car or, or get a charter. Because there's nothing like being able to see it yourself and make your own determination.

[00:16:42] Yeah, they're, they're 

[00:16:43] David Cummins: really good tips. I love to see it yourself. Everyone's had a junior in their team who, who says something's there, but it's just not so, especially, especially if you need to visually see it, to see exactly what the problem is. I, I think that's a really good tip. Just, just before we go, not noting some of the challenges that you've talked about with working in the NT for me, automatically, like architects love a challenge, architects love designing, architects, love having no restrictions.

[00:17:08] NT sounds like the place to be for any designer, for any builder, anyone like that. What words of encouragement would you like, the industry to do, to support, support you guys and, and become more involved in some of the designs and development up in the Northern Territory? 

[00:17:22] Tim O'neill: Absolutely we're a l land of opportunity here, David.

[00:17:25] And we do have some, some restrictions in, in how we do things for sure, because of our climate, where we are and our, our client groups. So there are restrictions on what we do for sure. And I think you'd find that in any government organization the where, where we struggle is. The skilled labor and, and the building professionals within the Northern Territory.

[00:17:52] Now, I guess it's a, it's a matter of. Scale of work and number of projects, but we, we tend to go through a bit of a boom bust cycle in this part of the world. And to be able to flatten that out is, is probably the key. And we're working through that process now. We, we've got a, a pipeline of projects that we've developed.

[00:18:12] And it's a matter of being able to roll these projects out and they're in they're in critical type areas where we know we're gonna have problems over the next, next decade. So a lot of remote work is coming up and how we do that, it's gonna be it is, it's not gonna be straightforward, I don't think, just because the number of people that we have here and what's available to us as far as skilled labor goes.

[00:18:37] David Cummins: Tim, thank you so much for your time. I've had so much fun talking to you. I've, I've found some of that stuff absolutely fascinating and really, really interesting and I think our listeners will find that as well. Thank you so much for your dedication to the department, to the Northern Territory.

[00:18:49] Certainly as you said, there's a lot of challenges, but I have no doubt that you have been. At the forefront of all these challenges as people like you, that certainly the people of Northern Territory probably don't see behind the scenes, but as people like you that certainly help make the NT is actually an amazing place.

[00:19:04] So thank you so much for your dedications to the industry. 

[00:19:06] Tim O'neill: Fantastic. Thanks Dave. 

[00:19:08] David Cummins: You have been listening to the Australian Health Design Cancer podcast series, health Design on the Go. If you'd like to learn more about the A H D C, please connect with us on our website or LinkedIn. Thank you for listening.