S8 EP1: Jan Golembiewski, Biophilic Benefits

Jan is one of the world’s leading researchers in architectural design psychology, with a concern for phenomenological experience and the neurological mechanisms that cause them. 

If you'd like to learn more about the AHDC, please connect with us on our website www.aushdc.org.au or on LinkedIn at linkedin.com/company/aushdc.

Transcript

David Cummins: G'day and welcome to the AHDC podcast series, Health Design on the Go. I'm your host David Cummins, and today we are speaking to Jan Golembiewski.

[00:00:25] Who is one of the world's leading researchers in architectural design psychology with a concern for human experiences. 

[00:00:32] Jan recent work involves a new interest following a recent pattern. He is now looking at readdressing the enormous impact his industry construction and design has on the earth.

[00:00:43] His new invention Earthbuilt is a technology that can help reduce the carbon and financial costs of construction very effectively 

[00:00:50] We welcome Jan and look forward to hearing more about his exciting work. 

[00:00:54] Welcome, Jan. Thank you for your time to be here. 

[00:00:56] Most people in the industry have heard about you, especially for your research.

[00:01:00] For me doing a lot of podcasts, I to try and pigeonhole people. Your research goes over so many different disciplines, whether it's innovation, whether it's sustainability, whether it's mental health, whether it's human-centred design. 

[00:01:15] It just is a broad spectrum of knowledge. What drives you to be so passionate in so many areas with architecture?

[00:01:24] Jan Golembiewski: Look, that's really well observed. I do cover a lot of areas because my research has brought me to, a I guess, a fountain head of knowledge a kind of high point. And from where I stand, I can see a hell of a lot that's going on because I'm one of the very few people in the last a hundred years who's looked at the psychology of design and how it affects health and wellbeing. 

[00:01:49] And in looking at how it affects health and wellbeing, I've found out how it affects things like creativity, things like workplace relations. All kinds of other things that fall out of that general gamut of behavior and health outcomes. 

[00:02:05] David Cummins: Yeah. It's really interesting because a lot of people say they do health, but to actually live and experience and understand health is completely different. A lot of your research does focus on human-centred design and patient-centred design. How important is that with your design process, what is actually required in the actual design principles that you've discovered?

[00:02:25] Jan Golembiewski: It is so critical, David, I can't get over how critical it is, but what a lot of people refer to as human-centred design or patient-centred design really isn't. 

[00:02:40] I believe in the engagement of people who represent, at very least the final users of the space from the very outset, but I don't ask them questions like, do you like this peach ccolour, or do you like the softness of this vinyl?

[00:02:59] I'm not asking them about the detail. I can design the detail. 

[00:03:04] What I want to know from them is, about what they want from the process. Now we're talking very high level. So I'm talking school children, I'm talking patients for hospitals. I'm talking about shoppers for shopping centres.

[00:03:20] I want to know why people are going to that space and what they hope to achieve. And then I want to try and extract from them what they see as barriers to their engagement. And once I find those barriers, I can usually extrapolate from those barriers, barriers to all kinds of other things, all kinds of issues.

[00:03:43] And if we can get rid of people's barriers, they find it much, much easier to engage and it is not what they say nearly as much as that they are actively engaged and feel heard in the process. 

[00:04:00] Because when people don't feel heard, when they aren't involved, then they feel unheard and that it's somebody else's process, and then they'll never engage with the project properly.

[00:04:12] David Cummins: So when you're talking about the importance of psychology with architectural design, you're really talking about that early stage from involvement and consultation, but also to the final end user from, how it feels and looks and how a patient will actually interact with that space, correct? 

[00:04:28] Jan Golembiewski: Yeah. The earlier, the better. And also the later, the better too. You know, continual involvement is really ideal. 

[00:04:35] With a hospital, for example, when somebody goes into a hospital, they might not have been one of the people that was consulted on the design of the hospital in the first place, but that human, who was involved in the consultation in the first place has left their legacy that I want people to be able to pick up on.

[00:04:53] People should be going into a hospital and going, "this is an unusual space, this isn't a hospital, as I imagined it, with the tracks on the floor and the beeps everywhere. This is somewhat different". And if people can break with their expectations, it's a really good place to start. 

[00:05:10] David Cummins: Yeah, it's interesting.

[00:05:11] So in reference to more specialised fields of health design, like mental health (I know you've done a lot of work in the mental health space) and I think everyone who's listening can identify bad design with mental health. 

[00:05:26] How hard is it to get good design for mental health and how important is it, especially knowing some patients have extra needs than other departments?

[00:05:34] Jan Golembiewski: Like all healthcare spaces, the big problem is making the space, not about delivery of care, but a space that allows the natural process of recovery to occur. People will recover you give them the right medicine, you give them good food, you give them the right people, you give them the right environment, and all those things will come together to help that person recover.

[00:06:07] So if you don't have those things, if you're missing them, it's like missing a leg on a table. Maybe you can get away with not having the right food, but the table will be a bit wobbly. Maybe you can get away with having an insufficient environment, but the table will be a bit wobbly. 

[00:06:22] Maybe you can get away with not having the medicine, but again, the table will be a bit wobbly, but try and get rid of a few of those legs and the table will collapse.

[00:06:30] David Cummins: Yeah, it's very interesting. So what is something that designers get wrong with mental health design and what's something that people should be looking for when it comes to designing mental health spaces? 

[00:06:40] Jan Golembiewski: Well, the main problem that they have is that they have to deal with inexperienced clients. Very few clients are going to go into a process having done this a few times before, and very few of those clients are going in and saying, "look, having done this before, I've seen what goes wrong in the past".

[00:06:58] If any client is going into this going, " I want to make this a great success. I am going to stick to the guidelines from beginning to end and make sure that the guidelines are followed from beginning to end to make sure that this is a perfect health institution", I can guarantee failure because the health facilities guidelines, which I also involved in creating in some small way, are designed to deliver health care as if it were a factory process. 

[00:07:33] It's all about delivering the healthcare and that peripherals the person at the centre of the healthcare, who is the patient, the person who is at the centre of the healthcare should be that patient. So it should be there to support that person in whatever ways is.

[00:07:51] And those ways include manageability. That's something that the hospitals tend to get, right. They help people even breathe if necessary, they've got that facility. 

[00:08:01] Comprehensibility. They have to help people understand the process that they're in. They have to understand where they're going, how to get there, and how to get what they want from the system.

[00:08:13] And most importantly, the environment has to create a sense of meaningfulness. That's something that is absolutely bereft in most healthcare spaces. As you're separated from all the things that create meaning in your life. 

[00:08:27] You are separated it from your families, you're separated from your animals, you're separated from your work, you're separated from your religion, you're separated from your loves. You are even separated from the artwork that you've surrounded yourself with all these years. 

[00:08:40] So you're separated from everything. And how do you give all that back in a kind of way that's generic enough that it will still be okay for the next patient. It's a really big question, and it's one that I've been grappling with for years, but there are ways of doing it.

[00:08:55] One of the ways is quality. 

[00:08:57] You put people in a quality space and they read " whoever it is who designed this hospital cares about me", right? Not generic, but quality. 

[00:09:11] Something generic they won't see. Generic is entirely what they expect, and they know what generic looks like. They've watched Grey's Anatomy. If you can give them some sense that the space that they're in is special in some way, then they will really respond. And we are very, very attuned to that. 

[00:09:28] Go into a nice hotel, you might not like the style, you might find the chinsy finishes and the chandeliers a bit tacky. It doesn't matter. It's still a nice hotel.

[00:09:41] You'll still have a compulsion to behave well in that hotel. You put somebody in a space, which is, I don't know, grungy, dirty graffiti ripped up, they'll feel on edge no matter who they are, even if they're the ones that ripped it up in the first place. 

[00:09:59] That space is designed to have that effect. So we are working within that gamut and we want to push them to the edge of quality.

[00:10:08] That's one of the keys. It's not the only one, but it's one of the keys. 

[00:10:12] David Cummins: How do you find those discussions with project managers, developers, governments, when you're talking about high quality, which can sometimes infer more money. 

[00:10:24] Jan Golembiewski: You know, the weird thing about health design is that high quality doesn't cost more. High quality often costs less. You're going and have a look at medical architecture's Kidderminster Hospital in the UK. 

[00:10:38] It was built for a song, but go in there. There are Carrara Marble benchtops because the Carrara Marble happened to be cheaper than the stainless steel and the nonsense that was specified. The wooden floors covered in two layers of two-part epoxy resin, so they're as good as any vinyl floors, but they're timber, right?

[00:10:59] They have really nice finishes throughout that whole place. And the place by healthcare standards was literally done on a wing and a prayer. 

[00:11:11] David Cummins: Yeah, that's a good example. I dunno that hospital itself, but I do know similar ones, certainly in UK in Europe and America that I've heard are quite, not necessarily breaking budgets, but they've got amazing design innovations and amazing technologies.

[00:11:25] So I think it's a good tip for people to be mindful of that quality does not necessarily mean more money. 

[00:11:31] No, it doesn't. It doesn't, but it it does mean more time for the designer because the designer has to have time to bang their head against the wall as they try and convince their clients to come with them on this journey.

[00:11:44] I'm sure we could have another podcast just on that point itself. 

[00:11:47] Jan Golembiewski: I'm sure we could. 

[00:11:48] David Cummins: Just before we go, cause I know we are running outta time, but Earthbuilt.. Do you mind telling us a little bit more about that because that's something that stands out for me and I'm a big advocate for sustainability, especially how to reduce the carbon footprint in Australian healthcare.

[00:12:00] What is actually Earthbuilt? It sounds phenomenal. 

[00:12:02] Jan Golembiewski: So, it isn't specifically to do with healthcare, it's to do with architecture. My colleagues and I have designed a piece of machinery which compresses earth, wraps it in a film and lays it as walls in situ, which means that all you're doing is bringing earth (which is usually found on site) and other clean fill, pumping it into a machine or putting it in a machine and letting the machine build the walls.

[00:12:25] And it's structurally better than brick. It survives earthquakes, better water inundation. It's got some amazing engineering qualities to it, and it costs almost nothing, and it has almost zero carbon footprint. So that's an innovation that I'm doing. It's called Earthbuilt.tech. Have a look 

[00:12:42] David Cummins: That's phenomenal because, I understand it straight away, but has that been used anywhere at the moment? 

[00:12:48] Jan Golembiewski: No. I mean we're in early stages. We're still trying to find money to put it together. 

[00:12:54] David Cummins: It's a phenomenal idea because I think people listening out there, they're always looking for new innovations, new technologies and stuff like that. Especially when it comes down to reducing the carbon footprint of any construction. 

[00:13:04] So that is something that I'd like to learn more about for sure. Keeping in that theme as well with sustainability. I know some of your designs help reduce the carbon footprint as well. 

[00:13:13] How hard is it to convey that message to people about the importance of designing to reduce the carbon footprint of an operation of a fully operational hospital, if not every building. 

[00:13:22] Jan Golembiewski: It's really important, but the real goal of the hospital is to get people better. So perhaps the hospital isn't the best place for it. I will use my technology in that milieu if I could, but really, I let the primary purpose lead and I know where to pick my battles. 

[00:13:43] And in a hospital design, using a brand new construction technology is not the right place to have that battle. 

[00:13:50] David Cummins: Yeah, I a hundred percent agree.

[00:13:51] As someone I know, says you always wanted someone else to try that technology before it comes into healthcare because healthcare's obviously so important, so specialist, and so unique that you have to really make sure that everything's accounted for, especially with accreditation. 

[00:14:04] Jan Golembiewski: I have to say, I do fantasise about using it in healthcare design and I would love to be able to produce some very, very cheaply built hospitals in Papua and Guinea, in parts of Asia and Africa, where they're not going to be so fussy about the building materials and would prefer to be able to spend that money maybe on a new fMRI machine or something.

[00:14:24] It's a very, very good point, very, very interesting. I would love to learn more about that and I'd love to follow that journey. 

[00:14:30] Just before we go, I know again, some of your research does really talk about the importance of access to nature, connecting to nature, not only in mental health, but also in the word of health.

[00:14:40] How do we continue to have that fight with land owners and hospitals arguing for more land for nature when space is always at a premium. 

[00:14:52] Generally speaking, a lot of the hospitals built on existing sites, and I know several hospitals that I've worked on in the past that the gardens have gone, but the staff get upset because the gardens are gone and we're just building a new building there.

[00:15:04] How does one that argument, to push that further to make sure that we can show the benefits to patients and staff and end users of the space. 

[00:15:12] Designing buildings in natural environments is an area of research that a lot of people doing some fantastic work in. I'm not one of them. I am an advocate, but I'm not one of them. 

[00:15:23] It fits in very well with my own philosophy about health design. Having said that, there are some fantastic examples, for example, the emergency department in the hospital designed by Stantec in Victoria Island.

[00:15:39] In that emergency department, they've got three gardens inside the emergency department and they're all minute. They're all sealed so that you can only see them through glass, but they're like these vitrines of greenery in the middle of the emergency department and they are incredible and people love them, patients and staff alike.

[00:16:05] So we can do it. It's worth it. It's medicine. 

[00:16:09] David Cummins: That's phenomenal. And what a amazing innovation technique. It's, not actually taking up too much space, but it's given all these benefits and it's internal and it's in ED, which is one of the busiest places. So that calming effect of nature makes tremendous benefits.

[00:16:22] So I think you've just inspired a few people listening, especially the young people, and the designers who are doing EDs.

[00:16:28] Jan Golembiewski: Oh, I love designing EDs. 

[00:16:30] David Cummins: Yeah. Yeah. That's phenomenal. 

[00:16:31] Jan Golembiewski: EDs are fabulous. 

[00:16:32] David Cummins: Thank you so much for your time.

[00:16:34] I do have many more questions. I know we're limited of time, but you are literally an innovator, a researcher, a leader. 

[00:16:42] All your research and all your design principles are certainly world famous and I know you do talk on a lot of podcasts around the world, and I think it's certainly people like you that they help represent Australia and Australian health.

[00:16:52] And certainly all your research and all your principles certainly do help with improving patient care and human experiences as well. So thank you so much for your time and dedication to our industry. So thank you very much. 

[00:17:01] Jan Golembiewski: Okay, well, let's call out just contact me if you need me. And thanks very much, David. 

[00:17:07] David Cummins: You have been listening to the Australian Health Design Council podcast series, Health Design on the Go. 

[00:17:11] If you'd like to learn more about the AHDC, please connect with us on our website or LinkedIn. Thank you for listen