Saving America By Being a Christian Patriot w/ Dr. Taylor Marshall

Dr. Taylor Marshall joins Avoiding Babylon and first explores Pope Leo XIV's first months leading the Catholic Church and what this new papacy means for traditional Catholics worldwide. After more than a decade of restrictions under Pope Francis, Marshall advocates patience and prayer as Leo navigates Vatican politics while showing promising signs of respect for tradition.

The conversation delves into Marshall's thoughtful distinction between modern Christian nationalism and authentic Catholic patriotism. His forthcoming book "Christian Patriot: 12 Ways to Create One Nation Under God" offers a roadmap for cultural renewal grounded in natural law, Church teaching, and the social kingship of Christ. Unlike many Protestant approaches to Christian politics, Marshall draws from the rich tradition of Catholic social thought dating back to St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas.

Demographics emerge as a powerful undercurrent in the discussion, with traditional Catholic communities growing through significantly higher birth rates while progressive parishes struggle to maintain attendance. Marshall projects that this "demographics is destiny" reality will inevitably reshape the Church regardless of current policies or restrictions. The hosts explore how America's unique Catholic landscape differs from the more secularized European context, creating both challenges and opportunities.

The episode takes a fascinating turn as Marshall shares Catholic perspectives on apocalyptic prophecy that contrast sharply with popular dispensationalist interpretations, particularly regarding Israel and end-times events. Throughout, Marshall maintains that regardless of whether we face minor tribulations or major apocalyptic events, Catholics are called to consistent faithfulness—loving enemies while building cultures that reflect Christ's teachings.

Pre-order Marshall's book at ChristianPatriotBook.com and discover a compelling vision for cultural renewal rooted in the Catholic intellectual tradition.

Chapters

• 0:00 Papal Authority and Dissent
• 5:09 Early Reactions to Pope Leo XIV
• 15:31 Traditional Movement Under New Papacy
• 28:17 Vatican Politics and American Influence
• 43:01 Birth Rates and Demographics
• 53:47 Christian Patriotism vs. Nationalism
• 1:08:51 Israel and Apocalyptic Prophecy

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

And then I will excommunicate all of the public figures that dissent from the teachings of the church, that I'll be out.

Speaker 2: 0:17

All right.

Speaker 1: 0:17

So let's say you make this statement and Taylor Marshall comes on and says respectfully, Holy Father, I cannot affirm this. What do you do? As the Pope, I would tell him repent, and if you don't, then I will have to ratify this automatic excommunication. You can't touch this. You can't touch this.

Speaker 2: 0:41

You can't touch this. I don't know why not cast some shade against me in the past.

Speaker 3: 0:46

Break it down.

Speaker 4: 0:57

The anti-Catholic activist Taylor Marshall Stop.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Hammer time Every time you see me. The hammer's just so high.

Speaker 3: 1:05

I'm dope on the floor and I'm magic on the mic. Now why would?

Speaker 1: 1:10

I ever stop doing this With others making records. It just don't hit.

Speaker 2: 1:15

I tour around the world from London to the Bay. It's hammer, go hammer. Empty hammer, yo hammer. And the rest can't go in play, can't touch this. No, I don't want to see your mass fit. No, do not want the mass fit.

Speaker 3: 1:42

I'm going to start therapy. That was the most epic avoiding Babylon intro we've ever had, taffy, hands down your best work to date, taffy, I mean is Taffy in the chat?

Speaker 2: 2:05

Taffy's definitely in the best work to date.

Speaker 3: 2:07

Taffy. I mean, is Taffy in the chat? Taffy's definitely in the chat. He's got a fan. He's definitely in here. You know they talk a lot about the Groiper curse, but I've seen plenty of people over the years have something to say about Dr Taylor Marshall and it never ends well for any of them.

Speaker 2: 2:26

You know, you just ignore and keep. You know, as Vanilla Ice says, did I stop? No, I just roll by. You just keep going.

Speaker 3: 2:33

You've actually always handled people sniping at you very well. You've always just ignored it, just keep on pressing, keep doing what you're doing and just go along with everything. So I respect you for that. I don't have that kind of self-control. I have, uh, really have this, this. I have this innate need to just respond to everything. So, um, how have you been? Man like I? We haven't spoken since, um, since the, the, the new pontiff, um, and I know Really.

Speaker 3: 3:06

Yeah, I don't think we've Not on camera. Not on camera. Yeah, and I know my initial reaction when it was all going down. I was like, oh my goodness, what is happening right now? And I thought the end of the, I thought it was just going to be way worse. And then, after thinking about it a bit, I was like, like you know, it's not good for the new pope to come into this hostile environment. And like I and then I saw you kind of take that, that position and I, you know it's it's been a very different mood since leo's come in right well, I mean, I gotta admit that I was.

Speaker 2: 3:41

I was dooming a little bit. I was live chatting and you know, I heard him announce it in in Latin and there was crowds and I heard the term, I heard the word Robertus. Oh boy, he got that. I was like that's Robert, sarah, baby, yeah, it's Oakley just won. This is this, is it post the dubs?

Speaker 2: 4:02

And then a non-black guy walked out. It was another robertus, it was robert prevost, and I was like, oh, I knew who he was. I was like, oh no, but you know, honestly, I did kind of tear up a little bit when I saw him dressed traditional. I immediately picked up on that's not the. So I and, and then I he gave he did the Hail Mary in Latin, and so I logged off and, um, I just prayed about it that whole day and took it in and I said you know, he's 69 years old, we're going to have this guy, unless something happens, for 20 years.

Speaker 2: 4:41

So let's just pray for him, let's let's hope that the charism of the papacy begins to saturate in his soul and let's wait and see. We've been 90 days now, or 3 months about and there's been some good stuff. I'm not thrilled about some of these appointments. I don't think a lot of people are, but you know Pope Benedict waited 2 years to do some more in Pontificum. I am waiting to see and be optimistic and pray for him and give him a chance. That's my position, still is.

Speaker 4: 5:17

Pius IX was elected as a liberal and kind of reigned as a liberal for two years, from 1846 until the right of the revolutions in 48.

Speaker 3: 5:26

So who knows, who knows what's going to happen over 20 years um, do you think there's any significance to having an american pope during this american and trump is trump, is just this figure in, he's just this historic figure like we've never seen before. And then you get an American pope seeing everything kind of drum up in Israel the way it is Like I don't know man. Do you ever get feelings of apocalyptic mania watching all these things unfold?

Speaker 2: 5:58

No, I mean, I think I said over and over, I probably said 12 times on my podcast it's not going to be an American, it's not going to be Burke, everybody just chill on that, and I was completely wrong. I honestly this is a little cynical and I don't mean to doom pill or anything here, but I think it does have to do with money is running on deficit and the richest segment of the Catholic Church in the world is the United States of America. So I think that does play into it a little bit. Otherwise, there's no reason to elect America an American. And you look at the history of you know when French popes started being elected and usually it's been Italians. But know it, it makes me scratch my head a little bit and I that right there the money element is is, I think, part of it.

Speaker 4: 6:53

And it, it. It happened only a few months after the uh, the U S federal spigot was turned off with USAID.

Speaker 2: 7:02

Yeah, it did, and I think a lot of Americans who have been generous with Peter Pence and diocesan appeals and all that they've since COVID, have tightened their purses and said, no, we're not giving you more, we're unhappy. I think this goes back to 2002, but especially the McCarrick scandal, 2018, 19,. All that you know that is also, I think, cause problems. So, yeah, there's definitely an element to that of having an American Pope.

Speaker 3: 7:33

What do you think happens with the traditionalist movement at this point? Like there was something about Francis that you know, as rough as it was for those 12 years, there was something exciting in the traditional movement where people were taking their faith very seriously and they were like, wait, we have to. You know, we have to do something because things just seem so rocky. But it seems like there's a little bit of disunity now and like people are getting a little lackadaisical. I'm saying that wrong People always make fun of me. It's lackadaisical. I'm saying that wrong, people always make fun of me as lackadaisical, I think. But people seem to. You know, without all the craziness coming out of Rome, I feel like the whole, like the, the podcast arena is changing a bit. What do you, what do you think is, is, is in it, in store for us in in traditional circles?

Speaker 2: 8:24

I think the general consensus is what we've just discussed and that is wait and see, be kind, be patient. There is a group who have already said Pope Leo is not the Pope. This guy is Francis 2.2.0. We need to resist them and you know, but I think that's. It's not at all like it was in the traditional circles under pope francis circa 2022, like that's when it was insane man, yeah, um, yeah, like you just said the word francis and people are like off, yeah, yeah, and under benedict, even like under benedict, the traditionalists were never like hostile towards the pope.

Speaker 3: 9:16

They it was. They would point out all the issues with vatican ii and they would talk about all the issues in the novus ordo and things like that. But there was always a respect given to Benedict and even John Paul II from even you know the guys who were doing this forever, like Michael, matt and all those guys. They would never come right out and be disrespectful to the player. It was really Francis that kind of changed the tone of everything.

Speaker 2: 9:40

Yeah, early on when he made the breeding like rabbits comment. Yeah, early on when he made the breeding like rabbits comment, when Amoris Laetitia came out and Cardinal Burke and Cardinal Brandmuller and some you know he was the prefect of congregation with the doctor of faith. I think that right there opened the floodgates. People were already feeling it, people already had anxiety about it and I, you know, I know a lot of people say, oh, it's, you know Taylor Marshall's fall and these bloggers and these podcasts and all that. But honestly, I think if you go back and look at how the dominoes fell, you really do see some preeminent princes of the church starting to square off with Pope Francis in those years and I think that in a big way, not to mention Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò putting out his letter letters he kept going. I think at that moment people were willing to start talking out loud about it. I think that point was missed by a lot of people in the x social media, youtube podcast space. They've kind of forgotten how things went down back then.

Speaker 3: 11:00

It was it was mccarrick. Mccarrick, you know, I mean it. Definitely the rumbling started with the Morris Latizia, definitely. There there was a lot of things starting to brew up, but it was McCarrick that. Everybody was just like I've had it. And, which is interesting, because Vigano, when Francis visits America, vigano brings him to meet the, that woman, who, who is now bringing that case to the Supreme Court? What's her name?

Speaker 4: 11:31

Tim.

Speaker 3: 11:31

Powers. That's right. So Francis comes to America and Vigano introduces him to this woman, because this woman stood up and said I will not hand out a marriage license for a same-sex couple. And Francis kind of like shuns Vigano and that was the beginning of that fractured relationship there.

Speaker 2: 11:52

That's right. I mean these fractures and these movements were already happening in the hierarchy. Because podcasting, I mean it's not that new, but in the Catholic space it's new. That was really the first time for people to come on and commentate on it. And then you have people drinking coffee and eating donuts after mass talking about it.

Speaker 3: 12:15

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:16

Right, whereas maybe 20 years ago it was only bishops and cardinals who were aware of some of these, you know, rivalries and fights and whatnot. So I think, yeah, it's really the perfect storm, like when all that cracked and happened is all snow, when all this media stuff not just your mainstream media, you know, like your new york times and your cnn, but all these little micro voices.

Speaker 4: 12:40

It's funny how the podcasting movement has kind of created a more synodal church.

Speaker 3: 12:47

That's actually funny. No, because, look, if that had happened 10 years earlier, you'd have only gotten news from National Catholic Register. You'd have had the fish wrap out there. National Catholic Reporter, they would have had their version. You'd have gotten three or four news sources. But because it happened during this technological boom, when podcasting starts it's it's interesting because we used to have we used to have like a common pop culture where we would have water cooler talk. When everybody watched the Seinfeld episode you'd go and talk about, but it became podcast. So after mass we'd all be gathered together and talking about the latest Taylor Marshall episode and can you believe this latest scandal broke and it really did change the entire conversation in the church, I think.

Speaker 2: 13:35

Yeah, and I think a lot of people want to blame me and others for that, and that's fine, I don't really care, but this, this is not going away and I think it's probably. Francis was the first pope in the history of the Catholic Church to walk onto that stage and unfortunately he had a lot of scandalous decisions that happened under his pontificate. So in a way, maybe it was providential. In a way, maybe it was providential, but I think when they elected Pope Leo XIV you know, here it is Click the link for the PDF and then I'm talking about it in three or four other podcasts. I'm talking about that within hours, like nine hours after it breaks same day, and then, yeah, you've got people listening to it, talking about it at coffee hour and it's really viral. I think. Actually, it's kind of interesting.

Speaker 2: 14:47

Two things went together at that time. You had everybody reporting on this and then you also had a lot of the prominent voices also saying and, by the way, the solution is you should start going to traditional Latin mass and reading the Baltimore Catholicism and praying the rosary and like, just entrench in traditional Catholicism. Like it was a perfect storm for that and it's it's not going to go away. I think it's stronger than ever. It's growing, whether or not restricting or not, people are rejecting that sort of what Bishop Barron calls beige Catholicism Right.

Speaker 3: 15:27

Just because that's kind of what he presents.

Speaker 2: 15:30

Yeah, it's a different moment and I'm very optimistic about where we're going to go here, and that's why I also think it's important that we pause and give Pope Leo a chance, because Pope Leo knows, and all the cardinals know, and all the bishops know, that if this starts going sideways and there's a sense of betrayal, it's going to be a lot louder than it was under pope francis. Yeah, and I'm not trying to say that like don corleone here, right, I mean, y'all agree with me, right, a hundred percent. It's not going to be just people whistling Like this is you know, and it's twiddling their thumbs. It's going to be explosive.

Speaker 2: 16:15

It's the kind of moment that's calm in the storm. You know like let's reset the chessboard, you know what's our opening here, but again, it's a big.

Speaker 3: 16:27

The next three years will be a big moment so you said it was the money and I do think that was not that. It's only that, but you like, I do think that's a factor, but I think the having. I think pope leo understands optics, he understands american media and I don't think think Francis ever or the people around him ever expected to get the backlash they got, coming mainly from the American media. Like the English speaking media is mainly in America. There's a couple of voices in the UK that are that are good, but it was mainly American English speaking media. That was the biggest opposition to everything he was doing. And I think it's interesting because there's not a chance that pope leo doesn't know who dr taylor marshall is. I mean every, every cleric who lived under the france, who was, you know, in in authority under the francis papacy, knew who you were.

Speaker 2: 17:23

So that has to be a bit of a trip for you, right that the pope, not just me, but a lot of other people as well, like, yeah, I have it on good authority that from two different sources, that pope francis did watch my videos. He was aware. Yes, it's up there and yeah, I mean, if you're, if you're like, how come we're not getting the donations we used to get from the United States of America? And what's the deal with the Latin mass and what's the deal with Vigano? And why is Vigano and Donald Trump exchanging public letters and all this stuff is going on? You're going to start asking questions in your meetings and over tea in Rome what's going on in America? And so you know they had many years to tap into this and I think they did understand that.

Speaker 2: 18:07

I think you know Pope Leo was on Twitter. He seems somewhat active. I think he knows what's going on and that's kind of what I say Like everyone's giving him the chance. We're praying for him. We're praying rosaries, we're fasting, but we are like watching. Like praying rosaries, we're fasting, but we are like watching, like it's not, like well, that was over, that chapter's over. Um, this edifice is still exists. It's just, I think you know, being kind and being Catholic and and and praying for the Holy father.

Speaker 3: 18:38

Do you think any, uh any of the relationships that kind of got ruptured between Catholic media figures? Cause under Francis it became anybody critical of Francis could never speak to those who were not critical of Francis and like, do you see any healing amongst the siblings in the family of Christ? Right, because that was always hard seeing that where it was, it was like, oh well, you the guilt by association, oh, you talked to taylor marshall. Now I can't talk to you because you, you know, and I I'm hoping some of that can heal under leo I think it depends on the pope and the church.

Speaker 2: 19:16

I think it really depends because those those fractures that happened were all based on what is your reaction to this situation? And then people got into different segmented groups that didn't exist under Pope Ben the 16th I was going to traditional Latin mass and Pope Ben the 16th I don't remember that. You know it was very common, like someone's a charismatic Catholic and Nov novus, ordo and student bill and try and you would pray a rosary, and there wasn't this sort of like what, what brand are you? That those, those labels were there, but under francis it very much did become what are you, even to the point of are you fssp? Are you, are you SSP, like that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 20:05

Unfortunately, it really got magnified and so I think it depends on Pope Leo. If we can get back to a consensus under what we have with Pope Ben the 16th, I think we will start seeing that healing. But there's people who pop off and they want to get clicks and they want to get views and they want to get popular and a great way to do that is to infight and create your own little tribe.

Speaker 3: 20:38

Yeah, yeah for sure. What we're experiencing right now is that you have the where Peter is crowd and you know Austin, ivory, all claiming Leo for them, and then you have the trads kind of sitting there very tripped it like just in trepidation, like oh, we'll see what happens. But but there, that that cannot coexist for too much longer. There's, there's going to be things that happen, and I'm pretty sure I'm thinking the end of the summer we're hoping that we get some kind of a document on the Latin mass, but I think that's going to kind of you, don't think so?

Speaker 2: 21:12

I don't think so. I think what we'll see in the fall, probably around October this is kind of what I heard We'll start to see different appointments to the Vatican, to the Roman Curia, see different appointments to the Vatican, to the Roman Curia, and we'll see. You know, if the lady continues over the dicastery for religious life, we'll see if Fernandez, kissy, tucho Fernandez, does he stay over the dicastery for doctrine, who's going to be placed in the dicastery for sacraments and liturgy. If we start seeing those changes, that I think is going to signal the movement forward and I think we'll probably maybe see that October, november. We're not going to get a document on the Latin mass by the end of the summer.

Speaker 2: 21:54

I think it would probably be earliest one year into his papacy. We would see it because, leo, it's just like when Trump took office, like, okay, who are my friends? Who are the everyone's? Like, oh man, I'm your best friend, I got the inside scoop for you. You want to listen to me? Don't listen to that guy. He's going to betray Everyone's jockeying for their place, and it really. I mean, trump didn't even figure it out in his first four years. He was getting betrayed left and right. So when you come into a powerful position, even if you have big plans, you still need to know the landscape and who the people are and who you can trust, and that takes at least one year, and so I don't. I don't think he's going to put out any moda proprios or heavy document. If he was going to do it, he would have done it in the first month, like Trump's executive orders. He'd be like signed you know, sumorum pontificum, revised, signed.

Speaker 2: 22:50

He would just, he would have pumped out like 12 motoproprios and everybody would just be celebrating and awesome. But he didn't do that. That tells me he's going to delay, he's going to figure out and then, if he does do it, I think it'll be at least a year in. So that's what, when Trads tell me like, hey, is he going to bring back? You know no, and it's not going to be the end of the summer and I would love to come back and eat a shoe on this. He was going to do it on August 30th and he did it on August 30th.

Speaker 3: 23:19

I'm really glad you're saying this because it's tempering expectations a bit. And I think you're saying this because it's tempering expectations a bit and I think you're 100 right now, especially you see the way leo's doing everything. He's like it's been so quiet, like the the news scene out of out of rome, so it's. I'm kind of glad you're saying that. Now, the other thing is he is expected to put, um, uh, something out, like he he's going to put an encyclical or something out. Do you think there's going to be anything on the podcast space? Because he didn't invite all those e-girls over to Rome for the Jubilee and made them all walk on their. No, I'm kidding, he didn't invite all of the you know the what the hell? Influencers to Rome. Yeah, so it seems like he may be gearing up to make a statement on some of the modern media.

Speaker 2: 24:16

Yeah, I mean, that might be a strategy. You have to remember that these are older gentlemen and they're sitting around and they're like man the podcast. Influencer space came at us like a tidal wave. We can't stop it. Maybe we can harness it, and that might be what this influencer meeting in rome was all about is let's bring some people in, let's get to know them, you know, and they might even want to figure out how to institutionalize that. Who are some people who can be official and they might. I look at that and I think that's kind of like your grandparents when they found out about email.

Speaker 2: 24:57

There is no stamp, and then chain letters started. Yeah, yeah, letter started, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I don't. I don't think they fully understand, like, how decentralized the moment is and the technology is. Yeah, so if they are trying to do that, they might very well be trying to do that. I don't know how effective it would be. I mean, there's obviously some clear choices of who they would choose.

Speaker 3: 25:22

Yeah, obviously it's kind of like the sonata way, when they would invite certain people to make sure they got the the end result they were hoping for. It seems like that they may be carefully choosing who they invite to rome to make sure the end result looks the way they want yeah, yeah, so yeah, I, I think they're aware of it.

Speaker 2: 25:43

I think, look, the best thing they could do, the best thing they could do is without and they're probably worried about, you know ticking off all the liberals in Europe.

Speaker 2: 25:54

But the best thing they could do and Pope Leo could do is just make very firm Catholic statements that would reassure the, the base, the people who actually go to mass, people are actually putting money in the basket, people who are actually having babies and baptizing their babies. Tighten up that base by affirming catholic teaching and I really think 60 of the anger and the contradiction, or yeah, would go away if they allowed the traditional night mass. I do too. It's a symbol of, well, it's really a symbol of the restriction and sort of the animosity of Pope Francis, and that's what everybody's still kind of injured with and wounded and bruised, kind of injured with and wounded and bruised. I think if you did, I think if Leo did that there would just be a big relief and, honestly, like the money would roll in. Not that it's all about that, right, it's not about the money, but they need the money and you know, the movement of fidelity, traditionalism, is growing Right still, even if they restricted it Bigger than it was last year and bigger than it was five years ago.

Speaker 3: 27:13

Yeah, it's funny, they always talk about how we're only 1% of the church but they're very worried about it because they see that that is where the growth, even if it's slow growth I'm not trying to overplay it, it is slow but it is where you see the vibrant youth attracted to and it's even even the novice ordo more normie crowd. They all want like communion rails and they want latin chant brought to their novice ordo, like this whole experiment that they tried putting in, which is why the detroit situation is so bizarre to me, because man, this guy, this guy, he's just like trying, he just seems like an old man trying to hold on to this revolution from the 60s. Did you see the pictures of him on that, marching with the immigrants and care for the environment? It was just filled. It was an entire church filled with people over 75 years old and there was one young family and it was just a depressing picture to see.

Speaker 2: 28:19

Yeah, and if you remember, like Pope Leo, 69, it's really that people in their sixties and up, who are the last group of people who who vatican ii was so cool and so great and I remember when the priest used to pray with his back towards us, that rhetoric you don't hear any, really, anyone under that age saying that, and we have to realize that in 20 years, that and that's the younger group, right, pope benedict? I mean sorry, pope francis, he's the younger group, right, pope Benedict. I mean, sorry, pope Francis, he's the age group that was like, really in the thick of it all, in Leo's, on the very, very, I mean he's maybe, you know, right on the border of it. In 20 years they're not going to be in charge. What's it going to look like?

Speaker 2: 29:13

You know, I think a lot of dioceses are going to go under. I think you're going to see a lot of parishes that are like the ones you were just talking about, where it's all about environment and social justice and immigration. Those are not going to endure, they're not going to be around and I think we might see a little bit of a shrinkage and a restriction. But if you look for the vocations and you look for the faith and the love and the growth and the families and I would even say the charity and the caring for the poor and the homeless it really is in traditional communities. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2: 29:56

You know we might be 1% now, but when you look at, what is it? What's the number? I always hear different numbers. I like what percent of Catholics in America go to mass? Like 17%. Yeah, I think that's the latest figure. Yeah, yeah, but so when you consider that we're 1%, but we're 1% of that 17%, we're now 1 in 17. Yeah, so when a bishop goes to a diocesan appeal dinner to raise money, that means 1 in 17 people that he's shaking hands with might go to the TLN. That's like 6 or 7%. That's pretty sizable. Those are active Catholics.

Speaker 3: 30:27

Yeah, yeah, and I think there's a very sizable portion who may go to the novus ordo but want a more traditional form of it, like the, the, the, the crazy rock band masses. I think that I think the life teen stuff has played out. I think everybody is kind of just done with all of that. So, um, now what do you make of like these, these new movements you're starting to see, of like christian nationalism and stuff? Is that so all right? So taylor's got a book coming out. Let's, let's throw the book up on screen, rob. So, um, christian patriot, 12 ways to create one nation under god. Like, have you seen some of the, the more protestant guys talking I think doug wilson's off talking about this stuff. Like, what's your perspective on on, especially the youth? You see, there's a massive swell of young people who are just like we want to make this nation a Christian nation. What's your take on that?

Speaker 2: 31:23

Yeah. So this book, christian Patriot, is a manifesto on that vision, on that vision, but it's a manifesto from the perspective of St Augustine, st Thomas Aquinas, church fathers, natural law, the social teaching of the church, the social reign of Christ the King. So I've been watching this for a few years and I've watched Doug Wilson and many of these Christian nationalist voices and I generally agree. You know they say a lot of right things and what I like about them is Protestants tend not want to touch or attack the founding fathers. For them, they're almost like the church fathers. Yeah, they are.

Speaker 2: 32:07

And what we're seeing in the Christian nationalist movement is they're willing to say there were errors made in the founding of America and that men like Thomas Jefferson, who didn't believe in the Trinity, he denied the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He even published the Jeffersonian Bible, where he went through and basically black highlight, markered out every verse that he didn't like, that he didn't think jesus really said. That's the guy telling us that we should have a wall of separation between church and state. Thomas jefferson, if he, if he lived in 2025, he'd be like drinking martinis with aoc, like that. That is his. He is a anti-Christian thinker. So these guys are starting to. You know they don't have the idea of a theology of politics and they don't recognize the great synthesis of Christendom between church and state from 1500 to Constantine and 313. They don't have that really. But they're kind of starting to realize that you know there's too many miles on this and it's it's running out. You know it hadn't had an oil change, it's just got a faulty system in it. And they're willing to look at options and willing to rethink what is America, or rethink, as I say in the book, any nation, not just America, any nation, and can it be a Christian nation? And what would that look like and how would you achieve that? And so they're doing a good thing.

Speaker 2: 33:41

But unfortunately they don't have, they're not really appealing to St Augustine, who talks a lot about this, or the Constantinian synthesis, or the Charlemagne synthesis, or the King Louis IX synthesis, or Thomas Aquinas, or any of the great thinkers who spent a lot of time preaching and thinking and writing about the relationship between church and state. So the book Christian Patriot I named it Christian Patriot because I want the movement to get off the term Christian nationalism and the reason I want us to get off of Christian nationalism. And I think if Catholics come into the conversation, this is going to help. The reason I don't like the term Christian nationalism is, first off, nationalism relates to the word natus, which is Latin. Nationalism relates to the word natus, which is Latin born, being born, birth. So you're rooting your political identity ultimately in nationalism. I see someone in the live chat said Catholic nationalism. We could do that, but I think the better term is patriotism.

Speaker 2: 34:47

And here's why Thomas Aquinas, in the Summa Theologiae, he explains that patriotism is one of the virtues and it's one of the sub-virtues under the virtue of justice. Justice is rendering due to a superior. It's just to worship God. It's right and just to worship God because he's our superior. And we must also honor our parents, honor your father and mother. That also falls under justice. So patriotism, according to St Thomas Aquinas, is loving your patria, and patria is Latin for fatherland. So now what we're doing is, instead of rooting our politics in being born, now we're rooting our politics of myself in relation to my patria, my fatherland. It's rooted in patriarchy. Ultimately, it goes back to God, the father. It brings in the spiritual fatherhood of the clergy. It brings in the fatherhood of your father and your great-grandfather and his great-grandfather all the way back to Christendom. And we're talking about patriotism as a virtue, as something you do, a habit, that is in your life, a character, quality, as opposed to being born, which is pretty passive.

Speaker 2: 36:09

So I think nationalism is the wrong. And the second reason is nationalism as a term becomes popular in European languages at the time of the French Revolution. I don't like that. I'd rather use terms that come from scholastic Catholicism, not French Revolution. And then probably a third reason why I think Christian or Catholic nationalism is a bad term People on the left associate nationalism with Nazi. Yeah, of course. So you know, we can just sidestep that whole conversation and say, no, we're patriots, we love, and I like the idea. I want America not to just be a nation. I want America, or every country, to be a patria, a fatherland. I mean, isn't that better? This is my fatherland.

Speaker 3: 37:03

Do you think the fact that we don't have a united cultist in this country Because, like it's such a strange time for us I mean even talking before about how we used to have a united pop culture we don't even have that anymore, right? It's almost like nothing unites us to our neighbor anymore. People kind of go about their lives, the suburbs you barely even know who's next door to you. I mean the more rural communities.

Speaker 3: 37:28

That's not how I grew up, yeah, so the fact that we don't I grew up, yeah so like the fact that we don't like we, you know we all.

Speaker 2: 37:34

We went to the same schools, same neighborhoods, played on the same sports teams. We all watched, like you said, seinfeld or cosby, and the next day we talked. We all watched the same show and the next day we talked about it, um, and then, you know, generally everyone was christian, um, and generally, you know, people were integrated culturally with one another. Now that's been fractured. But what's cool is catholicism, unlike the protestant groups, we actually have to physically go to a place for our worship because we have the universe I have. I know protestant people and I they've said to me like I haven't been to my church in like seven months and I'm like what, I just watch it on TV.

Speaker 3: 38:19

Well, it makes sense with their theology, right, but that's kind of what? Really, the only faith that could integrate everything is Catholicism, because the whole purpose of Catholicism and even when Paul talks about neither Greek nor Jew and all that stuff is because, like, when the Spanish conquistadors come into Mexico, they're able to intermarry with the locals there, because once they're united at the same altar, there's no more division between them, right? So in a way, america was founded on like disunity and and revolting against your previous generation. So to get back to a patria and to a love of your fathers and a love of your fatherland, it's almost counterintuitive to the american mindset of of revolt and stuff.

Speaker 4: 39:09

So I think catholicism is the only cure for that it's often been described that the american revolution was really a continuation of the english civil war. You know the in that the um, the american founders were basically just wigs who were revolting against, you know, almost like not quite the jacob, but but you know the, the traditional political system. So, yeah, I think you're right. I think like from the very beginning, even before I mean even even if you don't want to look at it like us revolting against a separate country, like it the founders really were revolting against same political system that the wigs were revolting against in the english civil war. So it's like baked in from the beginning almost, and you in and you, you hit there, you hit around the head there, rob.

Speaker 2: 40:02

And to magnify things and make it even worse is protestantism, because it's not catholic. Catholic means Kathaholos. According to the whole universal, protestantism always was a parasite on the state it always relied on. It's actually a new thing in the 1900s where the mainline Protestant denominations are not connected to a country, because the Lutherans right away integrated into Germanic states. The Anglicans were already, you know, know, basically an arm or a cabinet of the english monarchy.

Speaker 2: 40:36

Yeah, of course and so on and so forth. In same in scotland with the presbyterians. And the problem with that is is you're never going to have any sort of look. We, as catholics, actually want there to be a global consensus. Yeah, the global consensus is jesus christ, and if your religion is always an umbrella under the state or a cabinet part of the state, you're never going to actually achieve that. And and we were actually achieving that, you know, moving into the 1200s and the 1300s and unfortunately, you know, the Protestant Reformation happened.

Speaker 2: 41:15

So, yeah, I mean, we need a universal state, we need a fatherland. It's great to be that's the other thing Thomas Aquinas says, being patriotic and this kind of gets us, you know, into the debate of Ordo Amoris. But being patriotic and loving your fatherland over another fatherland is a virtue. Yeah, you know, like I, I want to love all people. Christ commands me to love everyone, love my enemies, but I have a special love for my wife and my children and that's actually virtuous. It's good. This is one reason why we have priestly celibacy, as we know, if you're gonna serve the congregation, the parish, equally and justly, it's good that you know 10 of those people in the parish aren't your children or your wife.

Speaker 3: 42:07

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because, like, especially with these guys like doug wilson and the and the protestants who are talking about this stuff, these guys do have a like a very strong love for jesus christ. They have a very strong moral compass, right like they don't want to play games with the moral law and things like that. But, man, they're just missing the bigger picture of things and they're missing the fact that here's what they're missing and I don't go directly into this in the book, but here's what they're missing.

Speaker 2: 42:41

Okay, doug Wilson is a Reformed Presbyterian.

Speaker 2: 42:45

His theology is Presbyterian. I was reading Doug Wilson long before I was a Catholic. I used to subscribe to his magazine when I was in college. That's interesting.

Speaker 2: 42:54

Doug Wilson, are you really telling me that you're going to integrate the United States of America or the state of Idaho with the local session of elders at the Presbyterian church? How is that going to? How are you going to get sessions of elders in your Presbyterian polity, of how you run the church, and you're going to somehow integrate that with the United States of America or the Kingdom of France? That doesn't work right. Early on, we see that when Constantine begins his conversion, you see that the hierarchy of the church, which was already in existence, right when you have bishops and you have archbishops and you have patriarchs and you have a pope and all these things, that integrates with the state. Yeah, how is the Southern Baptist Convention going to integrate with the United States of America? Like who's their head honcho? Like do they have a Cardinal? Do they have an Archbishop? You know, like the guy who makes the most money, he like the richest Southern Baptist. I mean who, who, who are the princes of the church? That that not only create the integration of church and state, maintain it, but also, with real heavenly power, discipline the kings and the princes and the politicians when they get sideways and against the church? You have to have the papacy, you have to have the hierarchy. It's the only way it's going to work.

Speaker 3: 44:30

It's such an interesting thing because we're in a time where the nations this is why the social kingship of Christ is so important and it's not just that Jesus Christ is king of your heart, right, it's that the nations have to bow to Christ the king, because we're in a time where all the nations of the world are now making laws that are going against the natural law right. So they're basically saying we know there's a God, we don't care, we're going to make our laws the way we want to, and once you do that, you start to see the disintegration of society just happen. It's amazing it's taken so long to descend. I can't believe we're still intact as a nation, being that the laws have been the way they have since. I mean, really, they started going off the rails around the time of the sexual revolution, but it's almost like a mercy of god that this country hasn't devolved into chaos yet yeah, but don't you feel that we're we're losing it a hundred percent?

Speaker 2: 45:29

and I think that's the whole thing about christian nationalism and all these young men who are disaffected, you know, like the groiper crew and all that? They feel that it's been taken away. It's been taken away the, the decency, the wholesomeness, the american dream, um, what it means to fall in love with a young beautiful lady and get married in a church and have a family and buy a home and buy a station wagon. All that's been taken away. And so in the book, christian Patriot, the first half is a crash course in the theology of Christian politics, and I wrote this book for a general audience. I want, like the people who watch Tucker Carlson and you know that that crowd to read it. So in the book this is the first book I've ever written where I'm not just like, by the way, I'm a Catholic, I'm a Catholic tuned into a Catholic.

Speaker 3: 46:28

I think the title is brilliant Christian.

Speaker 2: 46:30

I'm going. I'm going for the wider audience, and here's the audience People who realize that MAGA is just about done. In 10 years no one's going to be talking about MAGA and no one's going to be talking about Donald Trump. Probably in five years no one's going to be talking about MAGA or Donald Trump. So what does the conservative movement look like and what are we conserving? Are we conserving Israel? Are we conserving tax policies? Are we conserving wars, or do we want the conservative movement to become Christ-like wholesome? No more degeneracy, no more of this nastiness. And so the rest this really 60% of the book is 12 steps to create one nation under God. And those 12 steps I give that you can implement yourself, to begin to change the culture in your own life, the culture in your home, culture in your community and hopefully, over time, to snowball that into the culture of your people. And so the book is educational in the first half, but then the rest of the book is extremely practical.

Speaker 2: 47:40

So there's a chapter on abortion, there's a chapter on pornography. There's a chapter on usury and debts and finances. There's a chapter on marriage, the definition of marriage from a natural law point of view, christian point of view. There's a chapter on just war. Like you can't just declare war on people, like we Christians actually have a theology of how you declare war and there are conditions that Augustine and St Augustine list in obvious detail. And we need to live in a country where, when there is a conflict, the people who are Christians hold up the list of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas and say, if it doesn't meet all of these, we're not doing war, we're not going to war. And so there's a chapter on that.

Speaker 2: 48:32

So basically, 12 areas in our own lives, in our family lives, in the national life, how we can transform. And of course it begins with ourselves and our conversion, our love for Jesus Christ, our repentance for our sins, but how we begin to transform those things. So I think this book will make a big splash. I think it's going to educate a lot of Catholics, but also a lot of Protestants and maybe just your general conservative MAGA person who knows there needs to be something more fiery within the heart of the conservative and that fire has to be the Holy Ghost.

Speaker 3: 49:08

Yeah, it's interesting, especially with the MAGA movement, right, I think some of we I mean I was like really swept up in it before this election and then, man I, as time goes on, I'm just more and more just like, like he came. He came in telling us we were going to end the war in Ukraine. He told us we were going to end the far away. And I'm watching the Middle East blowing up and I'm watching Ukraine and Russia still going out. I mean he's talking with putin now, but it just all of it just seems like there's no, there's no purpose behind what they're doing.

Speaker 3: 49:40

I thought bringing doge in was going to really get the spending under control, but they are spending money. It's insane, the things that we're allowing to to go out our money go to, and there's not a real movement to actually fix the mess that we're in right now. It seems like they're putting some band-aids on it and slowing. You know it was. It was in free fall under Biden and them, but I really don't see it like any real attempt to fix this stuff. So I I think it does have to start in in the home and then building in your, in your community, and it has to. It's going to take some time to to to fix this stuff.

Speaker 4: 50:22

I guess my question is do you, do you think there's time for us to to do this snowball under, like our current society and in government or in the book.

Speaker 2: 50:35

I explain why. In christian patriot I explain why we do and the reason for that is I think we still do have a global critical mass and I think christianity is very strong in the world. I think we're on our back heel in the United States of America. I think we maybe have 30 years to implement this and if we don't, then yeah, we're done here in the United States. Canada is a little further ahead of us as well, but I think we do. I honestly have an optimism about that and a big part of that. You know.

Speaker 2: 51:15

There's a whole chapter in the book on demographics and birth rates and I think and I talked a lot with PBD about this I'm glad PBD wanted to go there because if you just look at birth rates, my demographics are destiny. Math does not lie. If women are having 1.4 children per woman, you have to have 2.1 to stay Just to maintain Right. And then you start doing the math and the projections. Even if you get under down to 1.4, the amount of babies you have to start having just to get back to 2.1, it starts grinding. It's kind of like compounding interest, like it gets really, really hard when you start looking at the math and when I was on pbd we were talking about, okay, how many, how many?

Speaker 2: 51:59

You know, there's the muslim birth rate and the mormon birth rate and the protestant birth rate and all that, and we were putting them up on the screen talking about and I said, hold up, put traditional catholic on there. And so they ran. The AI. Traditional Catholic is about four kids per woman. We win, it's over. We win. You just extrapolate that out about 120 years if we keep those numbers and it's like a complete global takeover. We keep our kids in mass. Keep our kids going.

Speaker 2: 52:28

Yeah, and that's just a fact. That's just mathematics. Right now, if the Muslims start, I think they're at three something, three, four, three, six If they do that, and then we back off and our women's are, you know, snapping their. I'm not having no babies, and all this. I'm a strong, independent e-girl. Well, we're done, yeah. Dependent e girl Well, we're done. Yeah, um, somebody's asking uh, demographics and birth rates is other than personal conversion and keeping your family conformed to Jesus Christ and in the teaching of the church. You know of the 12 chapters in Christian Patriot, that's probably the most indicative of where you're going to go is birth rates and I think in probably by the time we start dying, um, you're going to start seeing large communities of muslims, catholics, mormons and even the. The amish have a great birth rate as well. These liberals who are sort of, you know, driving on the fumes of the boomer success, they're not even having one child per woman, like it's.

Speaker 4: 53:40

Demographics aside, they're going to go away. The Muslim birth rate is falling too. It is.

Speaker 2: 53:46

And I looked it up. Islam teaches that you can abort up into the first trimester. Abortion allowed in the first trimester and they allow coitus interruptus.

Speaker 3: 53:59

Yeah, yeah. Well, this is especially when they come to America. Right, they come to America, they start getting into the American lifestyle and they just kind of become part of the American culture, to the American lifestyle, and they just kind of become part of the American culture.

Speaker 4: 54:09

The religion allows it, they can do whatever they want, as long as it's to gain power in the end. So if they feel they have to abort and contracept to become American to gain power, islam allows it.

Speaker 2: 54:21

Well, it's interesting Turkey and United Arab Emirates they already have a sub-two birth rate, so you can see an entire Islamic culture and nation can go under two births per woman, and so I really, I really think that's probably our grandchildren or great grandchildren is is watching the birth rates and seeing the collapse in Islam.

Speaker 3: 54:46

Yeah, yeah, but it's interesting. We're talking about America, right, Like because America is a different animal than than Europe and Canada, specifically because, as as much as we think there's, you know, Christianity is is on on the decline. In America it's. We still are a Christian nation to a degree, you know, a Protestant nation to a degree, and Catholicism has a pretty significant presence here, where, I think in the UK and in France, there's almost a revulsion to Christianity, and especially in Canada. Man, I wonder what the heck is going on up in Canada with their, with their maid program, their medical assistant.

Speaker 4: 55:28

I think they said five percent of deaths in canada right now or from assisted suicide it's, it's heartbreaking because canada was so catholic, it was french catholic and it's just so.

Speaker 3: 55:40

I do think, because I you know, you talk to guys like calvin robinson and they're like no, no, america is the last hole. It's like the you guys are the last, stand for everything. Because it's over in europe, like the, the battle is lost. Islam has completely moved. They're basically just waiting in europe for there to be a, an islamic revolution over there I think it.

Speaker 4: 56:04

I think it's gonna be the opposite. I think europe is is almost done. You're right, there's not a lot of hope left. But when they realize that, when your average German realizes that, I think things are going to get ugly and it's going to be an uprising of your average European and historically that turns out to be pretty violent in Europe.

Speaker 2: 56:27

You've got a point, Rob historically, that turns out to be pretty violent in europe. When you got a point, rob, I mean europeans, aka white people pretty tolerant and pretty chill, but when their backs up against the wall, they're pretty much the most savage warriors and it's kind of scary as catholics because we want them obviously to save their nations, but there are costs that are too high, you know, at least from a Catholic perspective, when it comes to just war and things like that.

Speaker 4: 56:57

So it's scary even from that perspective.

Speaker 2: 57:01

Yeah, I don't know. I'm a little bit more pessimistic about Europe. I was in Italy.

Speaker 3: 57:12

Oh, I want to ask you about that.

Speaker 2: 57:12

Yeah, I mean it's. I would say five years ago, when I was in rome, every single waiter I had was a young, energetic italian guy, like a likable guy. I'm gonna tip this guy big. You know good italian guys that are funny and speak broken Italian, but you know they're trying really hard and hustling. I'll tell you what man in 20, in the big two five 2025, I think nine out of 10 of my waiters. I don't know what ethnicity they were, but they were Brown, yeah, and they were speaking Italian broken Italian, but it wasn't. It was like I don't know indian or I don't know what these guys were. I didn't ask, but I was like it's so weird that all of these amazing italian restaurants that I've been going to for years, these are not young italian men working here anymore, like what the hell just happened in rome. That's rome, that's not paris.

Speaker 3: 58:03

I'm telling you, I went. I went in december and I was inundated. When you're in rome with them selling you the stupid phone chargers, that's been happening for like 10 years.

Speaker 2: 58:17

But yeah, that probably wasn't there 15 or 20 years ago, but that's been there for like 10 years. But that's like street vendors and gypsies. They're working in good restaurants.

Speaker 3: 58:26

Is that like the stands at the mall? Like the stands at the mall? Yeah, they're just. I just couldn't believe how, how few italians I was seeing. It was interesting, but it was my first time going to italy, so I had nothing to compare it to. But, um, how well, uh, was this your, your kids, first time going, or you, because you took your whole family this time? Right, we took the whole family.

Speaker 2: 58:49

We, I took the whole family. We led a pilgrimage in 2016. I took, and the whole family was that time. That time too. So I've been a number, I've been tons, but yeah, this was a family pilgrimage. My we, we kind of stopped. We would go to rome like every year or two, and then, you know, when pope francis, after like 2017, 8 I guess the last time we went was 2019 we were like I just don't want to go to audiences like that's a cool part of going to rome.

Speaker 2: 59:22

You know, like it's going to the papal events and we just didn't want to go. So like as soon as leo was elected, like within weeks, my wife's like we've got to go to rome, we're done. I don't know, I don't know. And she's like let's book tickets. And I'm like all right, book the tickets, let's go so what's so funny is I?

Speaker 3: 59:39

because I went to my first papal audience but it was under francis and I was. It was empty. When I tell you empty, it was nobody there. Okay, I'm front row and I'm five feet from the Pope and I'm like, had to be this Pope man. It was just such a letdown.

Speaker 2: 59:55

Let me tell you, under Leo it is so crowded. I've been to papal audiences under Benedict Francis and Leo and this is the biggest I've ever seen man. Oh really Massive, insane, super Bowl levels, biggest I've ever seen man. Oh, really massive, like, yeah, insane, like super bowl levels. So there's a lot of hype and you know what's amazing is, I would say, so many people I met. These people audiences were europeans.

Speaker 3: 1:00:19

Yeah, they wanted to come down to rome and see the new pope yeah, let's hope the new pope, you know, because we're talking about the latin mass and all that stuff. But man, the, to me there's nothing more. There's no more crippling message that francis delivered than open borders stuff, because it's it's basically allowing your christian nation to be taken over by invaders, right, right, and you're like whatever remnants of Christendom could have been left and helped. And he took this, this message of being merciful to to the stranger and stuff like that, but without even a thought of the consequence or it was a completely intentional thought of the consequences, but it was.

Speaker 4: 1:01:07

It's the thing that is going to undo whatever christian it would have been like pies, the fifth letting in the turkish fleet you know well that's the thing is.

Speaker 2: 1:01:16

We've had so many popes preach against that, yeah, and so for francis to preach in favor of it is a scandal yeah, I think it's a demographic replacement. I know we're not supposed to say that, but it's a demographic replacement of europe but it it under look.

Speaker 3: 1:01:34

So I think one time when you came out you've been on several times now, but one of the times we were talking about just because when I came to understand the importance of the liturgical changes. Right, like all of Christian, europe is built upon the mass, and the mass is this thing that actually builds the civilization up. So, like when they have these liturgical changes, that's one thing that uproots the entire Catholic culture. It gets rid of people's sense of a Catholic identity. We lose all of our traditions and devotions that we had. So then, to, on top of that, open your borders up to these foreigners that come in like whatever remnants of a culture that we had as Catholics to continue to form our children in the next generation, I think it's the worst crime of the Francis Papacy. It's worse than any of the restrictions and any of the appointments. It was this idea that it's, that your identity as a Catholic isn't big enough of a deal to make sure you preserve it and pass it on.

Speaker 2: 1:02:39

Yeah, it's just to use the analogy. It's just like if, uh, you know, you just allow people to come into your house and start taking it over.

Speaker 3: 1:02:49

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:02:50

And you're like. Well, we have to do that.

Speaker 3: 1:02:54

It's the Christian way. Oh man, Taylor, you got another like 20, 20, 25 minutes to hang. I want to go over to locals and talk Israel.

Speaker 2: 1:03:02

If you don't mind. Okay, before I do that, christianpatriotbookcom. That's the pre-order. I want everybody to order it. Order three copies. We want to hit the new york times bestseller list. I really want to move the overton window to change the discussion out. You know, when maga fizzles out and trump is gone, our conservative movement needs to be based on patria, patriotism, christianity, the fatherland. We have to understand that theology and then we have to implement that theology, and I know of no other book that does that. This is the book christian patriot 12 ways to create one nation under god. Pre-order it. There's signed copies. Um, there's going to be a limited run. Harrison butker wrote the foreword and there's a very cool we're going to have. Um, I'm going to sign them and Harrison are going to sign them. So if you want to learn more about that, go to ChristianPatriotBookcom. And we just want to make a big splash the week of September 2nd and get this book into the hands of Tucker Carlson.

Speaker 3: 1:04:07

That's what I was going to say I would love to see you Because've seen a couple of catholics go on tucker carlson. We just saw a guy go on there, a protestant go on there to talk about the straddle. We saw bishop baron on there. I would love to see a dr taylor marshall on there. Man, there's one. There's one thing, oh, and by the way, somebody just asked if, uh, locals will be free for taylor marshall mods, mods. We'll leave the entire locals free today. So anybody that wants to watch the after show, we won't put it behind a paywall. Just go, just join our locals and you'll see.

Speaker 2: 1:04:37

You do have to buy the book you do have to buy the book.

Speaker 3: 1:04:39

Yes, there was such an interesting moment when Bryson Gray, you and him had a conversation and it was right after Barron was on with Ben Shapiro, and Barron was talking about the you know, the Vatican Second Vatican Council talks about Catholicism being the privileged way, or Jesus being the privileged way, and it was like such a watering down of beige Catholicism that Barron was presenting. And you went on and had a conversation with Bryson Gray and he asked you very difficult questions. You were just like, yeah, there's no salvation outside the church. It was such a breath of fresh air to watch that conversation. Man, all right, so go buy Christian Patriot Taylor Marshall's book. I know there's not a single person that subscribes to us that doesn't already subscribe to Taylor's YouTube channel, but go check out the new St Thomas Institute. Um, that's also an awesome resource. Um, yeah, marshall and Rogan would be pretty awesome too. Um, is it? And uh, yeah, just go buy his book. We always got to support our, our, our, our fellow travelers in this arena. It's not just I don't.

Speaker 2: 1:05:48

I don't necessarily need the support. I want our culture to change. I don't want to generosity, I don't want to trans, I don't want people chopping off their genitals. I want our kids, you know, to live in a culture that's beautiful and true and wholesome, and and we have to do something like it's faith and works. At this point, we gotta, we gotta do the works. So I think that's why it's really important, like it's a critical time, and we need a movement of people who you know the next movement might? It's not going to be MAGA, let's make it, christ, you know like yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:06:22

We need the Protestants to be on board, you know.

Speaker 3: 1:06:25

Yeah, it's fertile ground. It's funny they were bleeding Catholics out of the church for so long, but I think they're a little worried that we're starting to pull them back into our scene. So I think the internet had a big part in that. So, all right, I want to ask Taylor about our older brothers.

Speaker 2: 1:06:44

Israel 1948. Israel at Locals Now let's do it.

Speaker 3: 1:06:48

Yeah, all right, so we'll add on over there. It will be free. So if anybody wants to check it out, you just. You don't have to pay for it. It won't be behind a paywall. We're going to head over there. I think it's over, rob.

Speaker 4: 1:06:58

I'm doing right now, almost done. Okay, all right, all, right, okay, all right, okay, all right.

Speaker 3: 1:07:11

so, man, there's been such a change in the conversation around this topic, especially over the last couple of years, right, and one of my biggest disappointments in trump has been seeing him just kind of bend over backwards to appease Israel. And I mean, I've heard you speak a bunch about dispensationalism and stuff like that, but do you see anything apocalyptic about them even being allowed to gather back as a people in this land after God? I mean, he allows the temple to be destroyed. He disperses them throughout the nation. Even the fact that they come back there, isn't that like a very significant event?

Speaker 2: 1:07:54

It's prophetic, but it's bad prophetic, like that's where we disagree with the dispensationalists. The dispensationalists are like oh, they're coming back, like this is so amazing. Give them money. And, from the Catholic point of view, I wrote a book a couple of years ago called Antichrist and Apocalypse. That's a sign of the Antichrist.

Speaker 3: 1:08:12

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:08:12

The red heifer building the temple, world jewelry, all of that I mean.

Speaker 2: 1:08:18

The church fathers say that the end times religion enforced by the Antichrist is Judaism and he will require Saturday Sabbath keeping. He will get rid of all the gods of the nations A lot of people think the the antichrist is going to have like this ecumenical powwow where there's like Shiva and Allah and Jesus and like all these different pantheon of gods. The church fathers, based on a prophecy in Daniel, say that he will get rid of all idols, all gods, and he is going to impose a form of global jewelry and he's going to also get rid of baptism and the mass and the priesthood and all that. Because why he says he is the Messiah, antichrist means, instead of the Messiah, he is going to say I am the Messiah, I am the king, I am God. Worship me in the temple here, I I fulfill everything moses and the prophets said, and he will deceive people. Yeah, and this is why dispensationalism is so dangerous, as they're telling people to prepare for this as if it's good yeah, it's.

Speaker 3: 1:09:25

There's something happening right now where I kind of see America as the new Rome, with its tentacles throughout the world and doing all these things, and it just looks like Israel is the whore riding the beast and it's like I'm like it's the only image I can see that that makes sense of everything. I can see that that makes sense of everything and it's like the they, because everybody keeps the way this conversation seems to be happening Isn't really theological. I see everybody talking about all the Jews and they're talking about it Usually and they're talking and it's like, yeah, I get all that stuff, but I'm looking at it on a story level of Christianity and when I read the apocalypse and I see the persecution of the saints in the end, I feel like that persecution is going to come from the, the jews, and and it seems like this is what is happening, like they're getting geared up for this yeah, I mean the epoch.

Speaker 2: 1:10:23

The book of revelation talks about the synagogue of satan and if you read the description of the whore of Babylon in the book of Revelation, it's based on the description, sometimes word for word, of the description of Jerusalem as a whore and as a harlot. Jerusalem Jerusalem, is described as the whore. Why? Because Jerusalem was the wife and the bride and the consort of Yahweh and he was married to her in a covenant and he gave her a home called the promised land, just like we do for our wives. And it says that she lusted after the genitals of the other nations this is very graphic language in the Old Testament and that she slept with him under every tree and she acted like a whore. But she was such a whore she didn't even take money because she enjoyed it. All of this is in the old Testament. Yeah Right, very graphic.

Speaker 2: 1:11:18

Of the of the, the whore wife, the, the adulterous wife of Yahweh, is re described in the book of Revelation. So when people say, oh, the is re-described in the book of Revelation. So when people say, oh, the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon, no, no, no. The whore of Babylon is apostate Jerusalem.

Speaker 1: 1:11:35

Yeah but I also One more thing, one more thing, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2: 1:11:39

When Christ, our Lord and Savior, is standing before the Sanhedrin and the high priest and they're interrogating him and he says I tell you, you shall see the son of man riding upon the clouds. Right, the high priest tears his vestments, which moses says you're not allowed to tear vestments, it's a sin. He tears his vestments and they say we have no king but caesar. That's like your wife saying I have no husband but my boss at work. Yeah, they denied their marriage to Yahweh, to God, and they instead said our king is a Roman, idol-worshiping, debauched Roman emperor, and they walked out of the house of their husband. And so if you understand the old Testament and you read Isaiah, jeremiah and Ezekiel the minor prophets as well and Daniel, you read those four books and then you read the book of revelation. It is scandalous because you understand everything being told in the book of revelation.

Speaker 3: 1:12:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:12:46

And.

Speaker 3: 1:12:47

John is telling us right that this beast will rise again, right? So there's this period where the devil is restrained and the kingdom spreads throughout the earth, but that beast is going to rise again. And I can't help but think, especially when you see the things that were going on with USAID and us using like America, going into overturned governments and foment revolution. It's like America's got its tenets. It's worse than the Roman Empire ever could have been. It's more evil than anything. And then you just see it. You see Israel like colluding with America. And then you see the figures from the church even getting involved with it, because I do think there will. I don't think the church could ever be the whore of Babylon. I'm saying there's going to be elements of collusion, just like the high priest and the Sanhedrin colluding with maybe Judas Iscariot working.

Speaker 3: 1:13:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah it's so wild that people could could leave the faith when they see this stuff. Because to me, I'm just like this is we are watching the story unfold before our eyes right now and, if anything, it should increase your faith Because, man, it's so wild how this is actually playing out before us right now and I don't know what that means. I don't know if this is a hundred year process and I do especially like what you're saying like um, with even um building something that comes after, like this could be a, a type of of the end, and then there's something that comes after that could be the reign of our lady, the reign of the immaculate heart of mary could come. So there's several different things that could happen, but I do see the story playing out in front of us right now.

Speaker 2: 1:14:31

Yeah, we could. This could be a minor tribulation that leads to the reign of our lady, or this is the end. I'm open. I've talked to father Ripper about this and you know, I think he leans a little bit more towards this could be the minor tribulation, but he's also like this could be it as well. But here's the thing Even if it is the end, we still have to live our faith the same way. We still have to love our enemies. We have to love our enemies. We have to love those who hate Jesus Christ and those who hate us. But we still have to build cultures and we still have to build our family to whatever we can. You know. But if you know, this really good looking, persuasive guy gets elected after Netanyahu and they start building the temple and he starts like enthroning himself in there and all that. I'm moving out to the farm and I'm not coming back. Man, you're not going to see me ever again.

Speaker 3: 1:15:35

It's like look, the Antichrist will be the Jewish Messiah, and so much of the conversation I'm seeing is like getting into the minutia of how. Look, there's this enmity that has been built up over 2000 years. It's played out in the Old Testament through every story, from Jacob and Esau to Cain and Abel, and it's always this description of the birthright supposed to go to the older brother and it ends up going to the younger brother. And that's what actually happens where Israel is God's firstborn son and the covenant goes to the Gentiles and to the nations.

Speaker 3: 1:16:11

And there's this enmity that's built up over the course of 2000 years because everywhere the Jews go, they wind up butting heads with the Catholics and they have to get thrown out of the nation. They in history because they are gathered back into the land of Israel and I just think God destroys the temple and, as a judgment upon them, disperses them from the Holy Land. So for them to be allowed to ingather back in there seems like a very significant part of the story. To ingather back in there seems like a very significant part of the story. And I think people and when you see the christians the freaking zionist christians aren't, they're the scariest people on it. They scare me more than anybody because they misunderstand the story so much that they think this is a fulfillment in a positive way, and these people are absolutely out of their minds.

Speaker 2: 1:17:10

Yeah, you nailed it. I mean, that is the problem right there and it's a theological problem. Yeah, ted Cruz says these kind of things, or Lindsey Graham or any of these people. It's a theological problem and I honestly believe if that's your theology, you will be deceived and you will follow the Antichrist.

Speaker 3: 1:17:33

Yeah, it's like the Antichrist will be greeted by throngs of heretics and you just see all of those heretics being formed right now. They're all like, oh, let's build that. I see videos every day of you just had. This whole group of of like American politicians went to Israel and they sat there and they talked about building a third temple and I'm just like these people are completely out of their freaking minds and I don't know. To me, I sit back and when I watch these conversations it's like it should never lead to hatred of a people. It should just make you kind of reflect on the story a bit and say, man, this is a very significant thing that's happening right now.

Speaker 2: 1:18:18

Yeah, and I want to touch on a lot of people say well, how do you know that the Antichrist can be Jewish? People don't like that. They want the Antichrist to be Barack Obama or Donald Trump. Yeah A, all the church fathers say the Antichrist to be Barack Obama or Donald Trump. Yeah, Um, a, all the church fathers say the Antichrist can be Jewish. In my book Antichrist and Bacchus, I chronicle every single one of the footnotes, If you want to see it there it is. But also I think you said it, Anthony do you think that the Jewish people on earth are going to Christ means Messiah? They're going to accept as Messiah a Chinaman or a Muslim, Half white, half black. Barack Obama oh, he's the Jewish Messiah. No, they're only going to accept a Jewish Messiah. Like the Antichrist, has to be Jewish.

Speaker 3: 1:19:04

Yeah, and their idea of it's the same reason they didn't accept christ. It's because, as soon as jesus goes and starts talking to the gentiles, they're they're completely scandalized by it. Right, the? The idea that the covenant can be shared with the gentiles is so scandalous to them. They don't want a covenant with the gentiles, they want to rule the world in the name of Israel. They want Israel to rule the world. And I'm sorry, but they do Because, look, I work around a lot of different types of people in New York City, right, so I'll work in black areas, I'll work in Spanish areas, but when I work in Jewish areas, I feel their hatred. They hate you.

Speaker 3: 1:19:51

if you are not one of them, I'll work in Spanish areas but when I work in Jewish areas, I feel their hatred Like they hate you if you are not one of them and it's probably seen you online, so it might be because I'm Italian, but no, it's like if you're not one of them, there's this hatred built in them. So, just seeing how their vision of a messiah is a conquering messiah, they, they don't want a a. They don't want what god had in store for us, which was, you know, the lion will lay down with the lamb. It's just, it's not what they wanted.

Speaker 2: 1:20:22

So and we do have a conquering messiah, but he conquers in a different way. He conquers through love, forgiveness and martyrdom. Yes, that's how we conquer as catholics, and um, we have to be that people, even if they persecute us that's gonna that's gonna be the tricky part um, seeing as where many of the early zionists?

Speaker 4: 1:20:55

Yeah, seeing as where many of the early Zionists originate geographically.

Speaker 2: 1:20:57

Do you think it can be said that Zionism is one of the errors of Russia? Yes, yeah, oh, that's interesting. We can't get too far into that, but definitely the overthrow of the Russian monarchy had a very large Jewish contingent to it had a very large jewish contingent to it.

Speaker 3: 1:21:13

So I never even thought of thought of it from that angle. But, um, yeah, I just man, I don't know. These are very interesting times we're living in and, you know, for those of us who have children, like you, I want to always remain hopeful for my children and for the future. So I'm glad you wrote this book. Like what? What is your thought process when you write? Because the last couple of like you wrote this book. Like what? What is your thought process when you write? Because the last couple of like you wrote infiltration and then I was waiting for like an infiltration part two or something it's like. And then you know you wrote something on the apocalypse and then you decided, no, I'm gonna write something on christian patriot. Like what's your thought process when you go into book mode?

Speaker 2: 1:21:45

I honestly just I'm like I'm writing two books right now. I just write, write what I like, just write what I like. You know, and that's how you, if you're going to write a lot of books, you have to do it that way, cause it's such a I mean it is. It is laborious and it's hard and your eyes hurt and you get headaches, and you know it's. It is a hard thing to do, but it's so. If you don't like it, you're not going to do it.

Speaker 3: 1:22:06

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:22:07

And in a way I kind of jokingly tell people they're like why didn't you ever write a sequel to Infiltration? I'm like I did. It's called Antichrist and Apocalypse.

Speaker 3: 1:22:17

That's the sequel.

Speaker 2: 1:22:18

Oh man.

Speaker 3: 1:22:21

Yeah, look, we're in some very interesting times, Taylor. I'm always grateful when you give us time to come and hang with us, man.

Speaker 2: 1:22:28

Absolutely. I love your show. You guys are blowing up man. You got on X and here, man, you guys are putting out good stuff.

Speaker 3: 1:22:36

I'm very, very grateful that you'd say that. Man, Honestly, somebody made the comment, like when they blame you for everything and they were like, hey, taylor Marshall's called Avoiding Babylonics. There's a very big degree to which that's true, because watching your show made me want to do it. You know like it was. It was watching your podcast. I was like, oh man, I want to get into that, I wanted to be a part of the conversation. So then to actually what? Like when it came full circle and I got you on, it was a really, really you wanted to be part of the company.

Speaker 3: 1:23:07

You really you of all people oh man, it's always fun talking with you, dr taylor marshall.

Speaker 2: 1:23:14

Thank you rob anthony, keep up the great work. Hey, thanks for that. That fun intro too.

Speaker 3: 1:23:20

Shout out to taffy, that was fun I'm so glad you, because I I did send it to him before the show. I was like are you okay with this? I wasn't sure. And wait, I have to say something. We're on Locals. Every so often you guys will see a tweet from me that may come from Taylor. I'm not saying which tweets, but maybe there are times where Taylor might want to say something I don't think I can get this out. He'll slip into me, knowing I can't help myself, and I'll fire him up.

Speaker 4: 1:23:57

But for the record everyone, it is not. They're definitely not Anthony's worst tweets. Those are all.

Speaker 2: 1:24:03

Anthony, if they're real bad, those aren't.

Speaker 3: 1:24:08

They're always funny, funny, but they're always just like, yeah, he doesn't want to get caught up in the riffraff so much so but he knows, if he slips it my way, I just can't help myself and I'll throw it out there.

Speaker 4: 1:24:17

So um, my favorite is when you ask him if you can use something and then two seconds later you text back ah, too late, I just did it anyways I just like making people laugh man.

Speaker 3: 1:24:30

Honestly, I think a big part of what's lacking in Catholicism today is people have to lighten up a little bit. We've got to laugh about stuff. It is part of my job to try to bring some humor to the arena. We'll let you go, Taylor.

Speaker 2: 1:24:48

Thank you so much for coming on, man. Thank you very much. God bless Godspeed. Keep it up. Take us out, Rob.