Avoiding Babylon
Avoiding Babylon was started during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. During these difficult and dark days, when most of us were isolated from family, friends, our parishes, and even the Sacraments themselves, this channel was started as a statement of standing against the tyrannical mandates that many of us were living under. Since those early days, this channel has morphed into an amazing community of friends…no…more than friends…Christian brothers and sisters…who have grown in joy and charity.
As we see it, our job here at Avoiding Babylon is to remind ourselves and those who enjoy the channel that being Catholic is a joyful and exciting experience. We seek true Catholic fraternity and eutrapelia with other Catholics who, like us, are doing their best to live out their vocation with the help of God’s Grace. Above all, we try to bring humor and joy to the craziness of this fallen world, for as Hillaire Belloc has famously said:
“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!”
Avoiding Babylon
Voice of Reason Breaks His Silence (Full LOCALS Version)
This episode is only available to subscribers.
Avoiding Babylon +
Access to the FULL show on audio!When a Catholic influencer falls from grace, how should the faithful respond? This candid conversation between Christian Wagner and Anthony dives deep into the complex aftermath of the Voice of Reason controversy, examining what true accountability looks like in Catholic spaces.
The hosts unpeel layers of complexity surrounding Alex Jurado's recent apology video, questioning whether one month away from public ministry constitutes sufficient time for authentic healing and transformation. Drawing a crucial distinction between common struggles with temptation and the systematic manipulation of women using Catholic theology, they challenge viewers to consider what true repentance entails.
"Supporting your friend means dragging them to heaven, not cheering them on as they sprint towards hell," becomes a rallying cry throughout the discussion. The conversation reveals how our culture of personality worship extends even into Catholic circles, creating blind spots where followers defend influencers at all costs rather than upholding principles. Both hosts navigate this delicate topic with remarkable balance—encouraging mercy while insisting that certain actions fundamentally change what roles are appropriate for someone moving forward.
What emerges is a masterclass in discernment. Can someone return to public Catholic ministry after serious moral failings? Is quick reinstatement truly in their spiritual best interest? Christian offers a compelling alternative: those with valuable skills might serve the Church more appropriately behind the scenes rather than in public-facing roles. This isn't about condemnation but about love that holds people accountable.
Whether you're grappling with how to respond to fallen Catholic personalities or seeking wisdom on balancing mercy with justice in your own life, this episode offers thoughtful guidance rooted in both charity and clarity. Join the conversation and learn how to navigate these challenging waters with both compassion and wisdom.
Sponsored by Recusant Cellars, an unapologetically Catholic and pro-life winery from Washington state. Use code BASED at checkout for 10% off! https://recusantcellars.com/
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The CDF Show.
Speaker 3:I think you're muted. My computer is going. Oh no, you're cutting out. Oh no, my computer is like glitching on me right now. Yeah, this is what happens. Oh no.
Speaker 1:This is what happens when you don't have Rob. You tried.
Speaker 3:Oh, no, wait, Wait, we have to.
Speaker 4:Wait, let me just make sure.
Speaker 3:Wait, hang on. I got everything plugged in, all right, am I still glitching on you? You sound fine, now. Oh, this is bad.
Speaker 1:Wait, am I not late? Yeah, but there's still a delay, right?
Speaker 3:no, I can hear you. There's a delay, oh yeah, but there's a delay between us. This is not good. Hang on. It's so over. Uh, I might have to. I might have to restart my computer. Dude, I might have to. This is not good.
Speaker 1:It's so over. I might have to just cook for 10 minutes. I'm not restarting this stream. I might have to restart.
Speaker 3:Do it for two. I'm going to no, no, no, don't restart. Restart your computer, cook for two minutes. I'm going to fix this. I'll just sit here and cook.
Speaker 1:I'll just sit here and cook, I'll just entertain. So everybody from Anthony's side come here.
Speaker 3:I'm just going to have some fun for the next two or three minutes.
Speaker 1:Hey, hey, hey, start this Computer. Yeah, well, that's what happens when your computer's broken. You know, everyone leaves you and goes to my live stream. So how's it going? Everybody, all of my illustrious so he's disappeared. Now, really, wow, this is kind of strange.
Speaker 1:All of my illustrious YouTube followers, youtube supporters. I want to remind everybody. Okay, just as a little reminder, I'm not going to say anything, obviously, about the whole voice of reason situation until anthony comes back, because we're supposed to discuss that I don't want to sneak anything behind, uh, while he's gone although that would be really funny if I did do that and try to go behind his back. But it's a reminder to please remember to follow my new shorts account. I have now been only posting all of my shorts on specifically scholastic shorts Okay, scholastic shorts. So follow that on YouTube. I've been trying to get that to a thousand followers, so please remember to go and subscribe to scholastic shorts on YouTube. Also, subscribe to or follow I don't know how this works on Instagram. Follow on Instagram. Walmart Thomas. We're trying to grow our accounts in the Instagram sphere. And then for my Shorts account, there was something weird that happened with my Shorts account. So I hope that you guys do that, because if you don't, you're kind of, you're not part of the team.
Speaker 1:Okay, you're also very cringe. Senior Wagner, you are a helpful fellow. Thanks, sir. You're welcome. Long-time watcher, first-time chatter. Thank you, clark. The late award goes to Christian Wagner. That's Christian B Wagner DO, but Anthony, he is functioning. You know, anthony, the thing about Anthony, I really like Anthony, he's sort of a boomer.
Speaker 3:I'm here. He's sort of a boomer.
Speaker 2:I heard you, I heard, I was watching you on the live stream.
Speaker 3:All right, are we?
Speaker 1:good, yes, but everybody on Anthony's side now remember to subscribe to Scholastic Shorts, yeah.
Speaker 3:On YouTube, so wait a minute. I do have a taffy intro.
Speaker 1:I don't know what the hell happened there if the taffy intro is bad guys, I do not take responsibility for it. I do not take responsibility let me.
Speaker 3:Uh, I gotta pull all my stuff up again, because I've restarted my computer here.
Speaker 1:Yes, somebody asked for the scholastic shorts. If you go to my posts page on my youtube account I think that's my last post is the scholastic shorts link on my YouTube account. I think that's my last post is the Scholastic Shorts link on my posts. Okay, yes, let's see. So I will post it in chat for all of you fine young men. So you're still trying to figure out how to do this whole intro thing that Taffy made. I got it, I got it.
Speaker 3:Hang on, here we go Ready. Hang on here, we hang on, here we go ready. Hang on, here we go. Here we go hang on ready. Hey, hey, uh, I got it guys. I promise, here we go ready. Sharing the screen? Yeah, I'm not. I'm trying to figure out who the Mr Miyagi face is. Tell me if you can figure it out. Taffy always gets us demonetized with the music.
Speaker 1:Oh, he's going to get me demonetized. It's so over.
Speaker 3:I don't know. You think that music will get us?
Speaker 1:This is from.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Who's?
Speaker 3:that Axon, axon.
Speaker 1:I have no idea. Look at my eye. Wait, did you?
Speaker 3:say Axon, axon, axon. I have no idea. Look at my eye. Wait, did he say uh, axon?
Speaker 1:Axon Axon.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's Boris Axon, axon.
Speaker 1:I'm back tomorrow, Michael Boris oh that was Boris, oh no. Taffy, taffy. Okay, I do not take responsibility for this.
Speaker 3:No, I didn't even pre-watch it, eddie.
Speaker 1:Taffy. Wait, that was Michael Boris. Yes, I guess. So, even pre-watch it, I just want to make sure it's okay. Wait, so that was Michael Warris.
Speaker 3:Yes, I guess, so All right. So now that everybody's subscribed to Christian's new shorts channel, we want to make sure we do that, so all right. Now I wanted to ask you, because what was your initial thought when you watched his video this morning?
Speaker 1:Oh, I actually watched it last night.
Speaker 3:Voice of, because everybody got mad last time. We didn't like tell them what we were talking about. We're talking about Alex Harado from Voice of Reason. He put out an apology video last night. I didn't see it until this morning. What was your original thought when you saw it?
Speaker 1:Well, there were some parts in there actually that, upon a first listen and without a reflection, they're actually very touching. Some of the parts when you were listening to what he was saying, the tone, the manner of speaking, it was actually very touching a lot of what he said and it resonates with a lot of people. So that was like first impressions, like right off the bat. I was listening to it and I was like, wow, this is very, you know, heavy, very emotionally charged, like I really do feel a lot of what he's saying. Like that's first response. Right, there is definitely. It was in that sphere, like that's what my thoughts were initially.
Speaker 3:So even the first run through, like the whole beginning of the video I thought was great.
Speaker 3:I was like, okay, this, this is okay. But then I cut, I took, I cut up two clips that I thought were a little troublesome, um, and right away when I heard them I was like, oh, this don't sound right and I I was withholding from even speaking on it. And then I saw christian mario put out a video and his reasoning for putting it out was everybody was kind of just like praising alex for coming out and saying it, and I had this same exact feeling that christian mario had in his video and his point was I'm seeing all these catholics like glazing alex right now and nobody's actually seeing through what the problem is here and what it seemed like to me from the first run through, without even reflecting on it. It felt like him testing out the waters to see if he dips his toes back in, what the reaction would be, and that's just kind of how my first initial thought on it. And then there's another segment that I found pretty problematic when he starts talking about his, his priest and spiritual father.
Speaker 1:So I think what's important for a lot of people to recognize is um, it's very easy for us to lose our souls over a situation like this. When we're talking about somebody else and the uh, the, the possible on the one hand I mean, think about how high the stakes are for being rash about this On the one hand, you could be defaming somebody who has an intense work of grace in their soul, of conversion towards God, a sort of experience that truly makes people saints. But on the other hand, you could be, uh, praising and running covers for somebody who's being deceptive, uh, about this and what I, what I uh and I'm not accusing him of that, of course um, but I think what we need to remember is that alex, his background and that's why I said the initial, the initial sort of emotional response, but once I sort of reflected on this a little bit more, you have to remember alex's he's a professional actor, that's his job. He's a trained actor, tv show, he's a public speaker. He has professionals working with him to produce this statement, to record this statement. This was something professionally done by somebody who is an actor, who had hid this from people for about a decade Everybody in his life, even his most close friends.
Speaker 1:So that does not mean okay. So this is what I want to clarify this does not mean that he's lying to us. All of those things could be totally not connected with the truth or falsity of the statement, right? Totally not connected with the truth or falsity of the statement, right? So all of those things could be true and it could also be true that he's completely being genuine with us and really we don't know, and that's kind of the point that I'm going to bring forward. But on the other hand, it's also completely possible, with all of those factors in mind, that this is something which is not genuine, it's something which is a kind of a farce. And really, what I want to emphasize is the fact that those two distinct possibilities are on the table and it's something that we're not going to know which one of those possibilities are true, perhaps ever, or it's going to at least take a while of discerning of his future actions.
Speaker 1:So I want I want to everybody sure, rejoice, Be glad that he has admitted his faults. That's awesome, that's good. I think that's a, it's a positive thing but also be be as innocent as as doves and as wise as serpents. You know, have that wisdom and discernment to be careful not to just jump right in and say, hallelujah, a month has passed, he's completely, he's awesome. Now let's get him back on the tour. I think that there needs to be caution, there needs to be charity, there needs to be clarity, there needs to be all of those things. The difficult sort of like antinomies of Christian perfection is able to hold together what seems to be very opposed virtues, but we have to try our hardest with it.
Speaker 3:Look, I'm also going to say I have genuine empathy for him in that this kid for I mean I'm calling him a kid he's 30 years old but for the past decade his career path has been public apologist, so he's been, you know this is. I mean at 30 years old he finally figured out what he was going to do with his life and it turns out he blew his. It would be like going to college for for a PhD and then finding out your whole career path is just blown up in smoke. I mean I have genuine empathy for him in that aspect that, yeah, man, like some things we do completely alienate us from what we thought we were going to be able to do. I do think the fact that he was using his platform and his position too many times does disqualify him from being a public representative of the faith. I just do.
Speaker 3:And that's not to say that all of us don't have sins. All of us do have sins. I mean, I've had arguments with my wife that I would be mortified if anybody ever saw a video of you, know things like that. Arguments with my wife that I would be mortified if anybody ever saw a video of you, know things like that. But I do think that there's certain things that kind of disqualify you from being a public representative of the faith. And this, this video just came off to me as man. I don't want, I don't want to try to read the guy's heart, I really don't, but it did have an element of testing the waters out to see how people would react to him, implying he might come back. I mean, I'll play the two clips that I had that I found the most problematic and I'll see if they're the same ones that you thought.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think that we need to distinguish an objective question and a subjective question and we need to be very clear about this. Objectively, I think there's room for debate. You know, if you have somebody who falls into this sort of sin in public ministry, you know, is there a timeline for them coming back? Like that is, I think, a good faith question that Catholics can have with one another, either harsher, a little bit more laxer stances. I think that's a totally good question that we can have. Then there's the subjective question of when we can see that a timeline is so quick to be evident of some sort of bad dispositions. So if he's coming back in, let's say, two months, I think everybody kind of recognizes that that's not, that's not good and that's not sort of like a good faith, uh sort of difference, uh sort of agree to disagree type situation if somebody's coming back so quickly. Um, so if you know if he's coming back in five years, you know it's yeah, that's great, we just agree.
Speaker 1:You know he thinks that it's fine to do that. I don't think it's fine. Um, we just disagree and I do not doubt that he could be in good faith and hold that position like two, three months, you know, quick, uh sort of entrance back into the sphere. You know, I I don't think that it's acceptable. Um, I think that's a definitely sign of, of a of a lack of understanding of, uh, how damaging this sort of behavior is to somebody in the public sphere. Uh, so I I think we need to keep that clear.
Speaker 3:Bobby, I'm going to get to your comment, but it's so similar to my thoughts that I want to wait until I play the video clip. So Bobby had a good comment, but I want to play the video. Let's do that. Let's, actually I want to play. I have two clips. I want to play the first one. Let me just get it ready here. You guys know me, I'm not Rob, so all right, let's play this first one. Let me see what your thoughts are on this part.
Speaker 4:And I need everybody to know that my producer. He had no idea about what was going on. He didn't know about any of this. He didn't know my parish priest, he did not know my bishop, he did not know the people who were closest to me. They did not know the people who were closest to me. They did not know because I was keeping my sins in the dark.
Speaker 3:But, like I said, like the Lord tells us, all things will be brought to the light. So my issue here, when he's saying that his parish priest didn't know, is that because he also mentions that his parish priest had told him he should go to counseling back in november and he didn't listen. And now he's saying his parish priest didn't know. So does does that mean he's been presenting himself for communion for a decade with these kinds of things going on, living in mortal sin? I don't know. That's a big one for me that his priest didn't know. And now, if your priest advised counseling back in November, has he advised you not to come present yourself publicly now? I don't know it.
Speaker 1:Just it seems like a bad reflection upon the priest at this point by by by him bringing this up yeah, I mean it's um, it's definitely leads you, leads you to wonder, but I mean there's a there's many different uh circumstances that could explain this. So I want to be careful about drawing any sort of definite conclusion, uh, because I know for a lot of people, uh, they don't like going to confession. It seems like he obviously and he admits this you know he had an accountability problem, um, so if he was going to confession, you know he, probably part of the accountability problem is you don't want to go to a priest who recognizes you when you, when you go and confess Uh. So I mean, it could be that uh, but really it's, it's uh, it would be speculative on on my part and there's other ways of explaining it that aren't uh, insidious.
Speaker 3:Um, yeah, yeah, he could be power shopping for for that. Um, yeah, listen, it's. This isn't about. This isn't about't about judging Alex's heart here or anything. This is just about when something like this happens. To come out with an apology after a month is appropriate, yeah, that is appropriate. To come out and apologize and publicly admit that, Because I really didn't. I don't, I don't think I, I, I don't think I ever thought he really did something with a minor. My issue was more the seeing the manipulation of women by using the Catholic faith. Like he used the Catholic faith. He used some of Christopher West's theology of the body language to to beg these girls Right. Like he used a lot of that theology of the body stuff, the and that that kind of really like didn't sit well with me and um, but the the. The main issue I I had was with um, was with, uh, this one here. Hang on, let me see. Sorry, guys, this was the part that I found difficult.
Speaker 4:And that's what I want everyone else, my audience, even if you feel like you difficult. And that's what I want everyone else, my audience, even if you feel like you can't support me anymore. If you feel like you have to walk away, I understand, I totally get it. But I just want everyone to at least know that, no matter how deep we are in our sin, no matter how broken we are, no matter how fallen we are, no matter the extent of our misery, god can use those things to bring something good out of them. God can turn those things into something that gives glory to him, and all that I can do now is offer the situation to God and ask him to take this, put the situation at the foot of the cross, ask for his mercy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was really just him saying I understand if those of you can't support me anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know what that was supposed to mean. When I listened to that a second time, I definitely felt that was problematic, because there's a sort of like what's the connection between the antecedent and the conclusion? Right there, the antecedent is I understand you can't support me, but here's this consideration, that is, god can bring good things even out of these bad situations. Can bring good things even out of these bad situations. So, yeah, I do think clearly the implication is a uh, is an intention or desire to come back. But we'll have to, we'll have to see what that looks like.
Speaker 3:The timeline, because, as I mentioned earlier, it could be done in an appropriate way or it could be done in an inappropriate way, and so really, for now it's kind of speculative I thought his best bet would have been to go into like a real program to get help for these kinds of this kind of issue and then maybe in a couple of years come out and help young men struggling with similar issues like that. That I could have seen being because I do think a lot of young men do struggle with this kind of stuff, and maybe he could have. I looked at it kind of like a person who struggles with alcoholism and they go to AA and then next thing you know they're hosting AA meetings and they're helping people with the same addiction. I thought maybe there could have been an avenue for something like that.
Speaker 3:But I think you're correct in that we have to be very cautious in just because look, you do. Of course we want Alex to return to the Catholic faith and of course we want. We want what's best for his soul and we want him to be welcomed back as a brother. But that doesn't mean we want him in the public for his own good, not even because we want to rag on him or anything like that. Like for the good of his own soul, you don't want this for him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I also mentioned that there's the. There's the difficulty of scandal, because I saw a lot of people they were, you know, the, the, the hundreds and hundreds of comments on Instagram, youtube and Twitter of people basically commenting the same idea of like, oh, you know, if, if, if we ever demanded perfection from people who were to be in public ministry, then you know, nobody would be able to do that. Or like, oh, if you're without sin, why, you know, cast the first stone. A lot of people are having these sort of reactions, not to say that there is some sort of path forward, a difficult path forward, through prayer and penance, to perhaps be, you know, to return back to the public sphere, like that might happen and we can discuss whether that's a good idea and maybe how long that takes and things like that. Those are open for discussion, but it's actually people who don't even have that in mind. Rather, the only thing they have in mind is to provide some sort of excuse for the sin and to justify, uh, why it isn't that serious of an issue.
Speaker 1:And I think that it would be one thing if people were to mention the, the first way of, you know, there's a way through prayer and penance, the healing of god's grace is so awesome to be able to overcome all of these things, which seem to be more so the tenor of actually what Alex himself said. And then there's the other way forward of to just minimalize and to excuse, which a lot of people are doing. So there's genuinely, people are being tempted to view these sorts of sins in a very light way through this possibility of him coming back, and I think that's a serious point to consider is minimizing scandals. You know, scandal is something that, incidentally, occurs through a lot of different acts, unfortunately. But to minimize it is an obligation that he has and to have a return that even you know, as a sort of inkling of being quick, does put forward, whether he likes it or not, and whether it's his intention or not.
Speaker 3:it does put forward this minimalization of what he did, which we see all throughout the comment sections and all of the different Well, I think a big part of the problem is a lot of young guys, and I see this with a lot of young guys. They're like. They're like well, you know who am I. We can all fall for the trap of lust and have a weak moment. That's not what this was, guys. This wasn't him getting caught with his search history having some shady stuff on it. This is this is much different than that. Like this is.
Speaker 3:This is him using his public platform and knowledge of the Catholic faith to manipulate women. Like this is a very different thing than having a moment of weakness and giving into your lust and you know you have to go to confession because you looked at something wrong. It's not the same thing. This is a very serious thing and it it it's not because I think that's where most of the people, especially the young guys that I see commenting they're all trying to. They're trying to look at it from a place of oh, I don't want to judge him because I'll be judged like that, and that's understandable. I get that, but it doesn't mean he can't be forgiven. It just means he can't maintain the same position he had before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this is why I really did appreciate I don't think we've mentioned it yet I really actually did appreciate. Uh, mario's I have.
Speaker 3:I have his video up. We can go through it after you say this, but yeah, but, um, with mario's take.
Speaker 1:What I found to be so, uh, refreshing is that I think that with a lot of these discussions, there is a an aspect of christian realism and, uh, christian common sense, like sanctified common sense, that's just completely lost in these situations to where, um, this is something that my friend uh river run is really good with when he's evaluating these sorts of situations. It's like, okay, let's just kind of like cut all of the piety signaling. Let's kind of cut all of the sort of antagonism and favoritism towards different individuals and let's just be kind of honest and realistic with ourselves in considering what went on and the type of effects this has for the future, the habits, the vices that are built. Like, let's just be real with one another. Let's look at the way this affects, this has for the future, the habits, the vices that are built. Let's just be real with one another. Let's look at the way this affects other people and the way that they see the world, the way that they see sin.
Speaker 1:Let's kind of view this a little bit more objectively and abstractly, rather than thinking about this in the terms of this is the guy I previously really liked, or this is the guy I previously didn't like, or this was the guy I had this or that feeling towards, or this is my own background of the type of sense that I struggled or struggle with. Thinking about this kind of just in a common sense, objective way is very refreshing, because I was talking with somebody earlier and I said that you really do need to thread the needle on this topic so finely because it's so emotionally charged and people it seems like they just kind of throw away their brains with how they think about these sorts of situations because of all of the aforementioned effects.
Speaker 3:And and and. There's this um, there's this thing that happens now with public um, like talking heads or, you know, podcasters or whatever, where people see their, you know an influencer that they like, that it's like they'll defend anything they do because they have this attachment to that influencer and it's, it's not. It's not good, like we're all human and any one of us can make these kinds of mistakes. But I'll tell you right now, if I got caught having an affair on my wife like I would disqualify myself from doing this. It's just, I'm sorry this, there's just some things that you can't I defend you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was a joke. That was a joke, guys. I would not defend Anthony. Okay, would not defend him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, would not defend him. Yeah, yeah, like, uh, I think a lot of people felt this way. I was a little disappointed when he seemed to leave a door open for coming back to public ministry. I think that lacks discernment to bring up in an apology. But that's all. Like you know, I I don't think it's wrong that he came out and admitted to everything. I'll tell you um I.
Speaker 1:Okay, one comment I will make, and this might be extremely controversial. If you will be offended, just cover your ears. I also would really like I'm very uh much looking forward to hit the the claim about the texting of the girl. When he was a catechist, he didn't deny that any of those texts were. He didn't say they were fake or anything like that. I really would like to see the results of the investigation just to kind of get a confirmation there. Uh, because you know I, I will, I will give the benefit of the doubt, but you know I, I would like to to trust and verify on a lot of these issues. Um, and I think a lot of people have just kind of taken his word for something like that because he admitted the other things. But limited hangout is always possible with these things. But you know, obviously I'm not making an accusation here, I'm just saying that I would like to see confirmation.
Speaker 3:And not just that, even if she wasn't underage, he was her catechist, he was in a position of authority over her. I mean, that would get you a lawsuit at any company you were working at, or anything like that. Somebody's asking do you ask, wagner, how many women there's too many women to follow on this Three, and they only can be your mother, your sister or you know a family member. Yeah, I'm trying to keep it a little light here, but look, we went through this in the original video. These things are very serious, but I don't like how these young guys are equating what he did to their weakness when it comes to what they look at on the internet.
Speaker 3:There's a difference in severity. I understand it's the same. You know it's falling for the same. You know spirit, I guess. Or the same you know it's falling for lust. But this is, this is just different.
Speaker 3:Like this guy prayed upon women and prayed upon them in a way where he would, he would, he would know what to look for and what kind of woman to look for, and he knew what to present. He had a game that he laid out and he did it repeatedly, over and over, and he was successful and he crafted this over time and he had a playbook that he ran by. I mean, this is not. You know. I'm sorry, it's because I it sucks because this weekend I was thinking about like how I'm kind of trapped in this, in this position, where I seem to be commenting on everything going on in the Catholic world, but I really don't think anybody has addressed this issue properly. And it was the same thing with the Lila thing the other day when, when she did her part, like there, somebody does need to talk about this stuff without, I don't know, without, without crossing lines and stuff.
Speaker 1:These are topics that do have to be discussed by catholics, so that we do, because other people are looking in talking about it, and it needs to be discussed amongst us well, I I think that it's, uh, it's incredibly irresponsible to not address these sorts of things and I think that there has been a tendency always in the church and I think this has always been a bad thing to misunderstand the precepts around sins of speech, especially things like detraction or things like gossip, and they have misapplied this, especially when it comes to the sins of public figures. If this was your friend at the parish, sure, having a conversation about this, it may, outside of very limited circumstances, probably would be something close to a sin of speech. You have to very much guard yourself against making those statements. But it has always been recognized in the church that there is a certain uniqueness when it comes to public figures and you can read, for example, st Ignatius when he's talking about his, quickly just talking about his examination of conscience and the sins of actions, the sins of thoughts, the sins of words and how we do or do not sin by sins of words.
Speaker 1:He's very clear about this is the unique role of a public figure and the type of things that can be said about a public figure, because these need to be addressed for the common good and it would be incredibly irresponsible, uh, for us or for somebody not to uh sort of pick up the, the mantle of frankly talking about this, the lessons to be drawn, the uh, the easy, easy sins that can be fallen into, like I've been for anybody who is on the right or the left of me here.
Speaker 1:A lot of people have been saying both of like oh wagner, you know you're giving too much, or a w Wagner, you should never talk about this. For both of them, I mean, I've spoken about the dangers that can come from credulousness very easily believing people on light grounds, especially people who do not have trustworthiness and also the sins of rashness very easy to be rash about this as well. So, where there can be sins committed and where there are moral lessons to be drawn and where there is a general danger like what is exactly the problem with talking about this? I think it's from people who either haven't thought about this or have some sort of personal emotional attachment to the situation, which is what I meant about the threading the needle very closely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I'm curious, do you even because, look this, this business does require collaboration, right? Like you and I have two totally different channels, but you and I are collaborating together, yeah, do you think anybody would even collaborate with him at this point, like that? That's? That's like something I've been wondering. If he wants, if he wants to come back into this, like who would, even who would be the first. But unless he's, unless he's coming on with a guy like me to face a real interview and real questions like what is this, this, this, this? I don't know, I don't see what I mean, what's he gonna?
Speaker 3:do gonna go back to my podcast no, I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't think that um, those types of podcasts would would have the interview um. I think that there's a lot of clout goblins out there and I think that a lot of them would uh be fine with collaborating um, obviously like on a much smaller scale, but that that is. That is something that I think we need to go, we need to prepare ourselves for is, you know the contingency of? You know he's three weeks from now trying to make content again, like what are the steps? Um, you know what? What are, what are the steps to to try to oppose this?
Speaker 1:And I think think that it's perfectly reasonable to have an organized way of thinking about how this is opposed, how we explain to people who are of goodwill and are willing to listen why this is a bad thing and the type of damage it's causing, because there are a lot of people out there who you know they are, they are of goodwill, uh, they have some uh disorder when it comes to the, their own emotional involvement in this, uh, whether it's through their own uh past, whether it's through um, the, the way in which voice of reason have helped them.
Speaker 1:But there are, there are of goodwill and there just needs to simply be an explanation for the type of damage that this does, which one can even see from the um, the words of voice of reason himself. It would be hypocritical and contrary to what he said if he was to try to come back in a in a short space, and I think it's also perfectly appropriate for the contingency of him coming back and collaborating with people, that the people that he collaborates with that, uh, you know, there there'd be um, to put it in political terms consequences there'd be no, not consequences there'd be like secondary sanctions.
Speaker 1:You know, if you buy uh, if you buy uh iranian oil, you get sanctioned you know, it's a nice reason you get sanctioned I mean something happened to it yeah, yeah that's a little bit of a joke, but I mean it's kind of serious is um, when it comes to those people, yeah, there should be sanctions.
Speaker 3:Come on here. We talk for four hours, five hours a week, and I think if people are giving up, if they're producing content and you enjoy it, they could be paid for it.
Speaker 1:I don't, yeah, I mean, this is just against papal statements, and I think this is what we have to be really careful about when we just make intuitive statements like this of like, oh, I don't think laity should be making money off of the faith. The, the Pope's, when writing about Catholic action, said the exact opposite. They said that we actually need people who are um cooperators in Catholic action, who are able to dedicate everything to it. Um, and this is going to look, there's a lot of different aspects of Catholic action. You know there's, uh, everything from political action to, um, you know, the educational apostolate, the apostolate of media, people doing media work. There's a lot of different aspects of this, but, no, I just completely disagree with that, and the uh, the Pope's disagree as well.
Speaker 3:Do you want to, uh, do you want to play a Christian Mario's video?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I would like to react to that, yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, Cause I think honestly, when he put that out, I was like this is spot on. Yeah, it was exactly what I was thinking, and I consider David a friend. Let's see.
Speaker 2:Let's bring it up, okay. So I had a few thoughts on Vor and I wanted to share really quickly because a lot of people are very upset with.
Speaker 3:And look, I do think we should, because I heard somebody say we should be calling him Alex Harado. But like voice of reason is his rap name and like we got to call him by his rap name is how I see it.
Speaker 2:So I don't know about Vore, but my post where I criticized him for posting that he now has a robust prayer life after his sexting scandal, and I think I just wanted to explain some of this for people that I think have, like, maybe a faulty understanding of what it means to forgive in Christianity, or maybe they don't have a good understanding of discernment. But a few things. I'm not trying to sound patronizing. I just think this is genuinely concerning when you're caught with your pants down, caught doing something extremely immoral, like leveraging your ministry to get women to sex to you or in sexual situations with you, and you disappear for a month and then you post a video where you say I don't know what the future holds for my ministry. And then you say I understand some of you won't be able to support me anymore. That sounds like a guy who's shaken by the fact that he's been caught, but it does not sound like a guy who understands it's time to pack it up and let his ministry go, because he still wants to go online, presumably, and see if he has a shot to get his foot back in the door, because why else would you say those who can't support me anymore, and why else would you say I don't know what the future holds for my ministry, bro. I know what the future holds for your ministry. It's helping you to stop.
Speaker 2:You used your ministry to leverage women into sex. That's bad, and people will respond by going or into sexual situations. At least, I don't know about what. If you slept with these women or not, I don't care, but you used a ministry to leverage women into a bad spot. That's not good. And so for the people that are responding going well, all men have sexual sin. Okay, well, congrats.
Speaker 2:You're not understanding what I'm saying at all. Yeah, but do all men use ministry and influencer status to have a bunch of groupies? Is all men use a ministry and influencer status to have a bunch of groupies? Is that what all men do? I don't think so. I don't think that's true at all. So, yeah, it seems like a lot of guys with zero discernment go whoa, oh, oh, guys, he said sorry, so now he's untouchable. And now you know, and now we all have to be super graceful and like just accept him. Or it's rash judgment, uh, no, it's just discernment, dude. I mean, if somebody beats his wife and then says, sorry everybody, I'm not going to beat my wife anymore, are you really going to trust him to be around his wife?
Speaker 3:I think beating his wife would be less. Do you want to pause it at all, or do you want?
Speaker 1:to play it through. No, I think I want to play it through. All right, we'll play it all the way through.
Speaker 2:Wife again and not beat her. I wouldn think I want to play it through. All right, we'll play it all the way through wife again and not beat her. I mean I wouldn't maybe you would, but going on.
Speaker 3:Well, no, that that analogy works. If if the guy beat his wife and he's going out giving marriage counseling, right like that's, that's more of an apt analogy.
Speaker 2:Like if if a guy's a marriage counselor and he's telling people how to have a healthy marriage and then a video comes out of him beating his wife, that would be a more apt analogy, I think so for 25 minutes, with all these super dramatic pauses, and then saying that you're holier than thou, because now you he didn't say he was holier than thou, but now saying I have a more robust life that we should all aspire to Really. So you say the scandal happens and now you're holier than ever.
Speaker 3:Yeah, ok, you know. Look, I want to stop it there for a second because Alex did do that. Like he commented, how you know, after this month I have this robust prayer life and he said how he's going to counseling once. He's gone to counseling every week, so he's gone to four counseling sessions and he's praying every day, which is, you know, he probably should have been praying anyway, but it is kind of strange how he's presenting that, and I'm not saying he's saying he's holier than thou, but Christian's kind of right in his analysis here, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think that it's really hard because, as I mentioned, it's a lot of speculation and I don't like to speculate, but it is objectively difficult to and I want to acknowledge this. It is like objectively difficult to and I want to acknowledge this it's very objectively difficult to make a apology video and make it not sound really, really bad. Yeah, like, I'm sure there's always the, because you know you can kind of plug and chug the way in which a lot of these secular apology things went. It's like oh, I, you know, I've I example, I said the N word. I'm really sorry about saying the N word. I'm I'm a much better person now. Like I've gotten a lot better about saying the N word. I'm friends with a lot of black people.
Speaker 1:Now it's like there's a, there's a sort of script that often gets followed, but we also have to remember is like, what else are you supposed to say? Like are you supposed to say like you know, I said it, I'm really sorry, I still say it, I still struggle with saying it. It's like dude, come, come on. Like that's, that's like a really bad, uh, apology video. If you're just like, I'm sorry for doing it, I still do it. Uh. So like on the one hand, yeah, it is, it is sort of like a cliche and that's kind of how they all go, but on the other hand, it's like, okay, what else is he supposed to? Is he supposed to say like, yeah, I did it, my prayer life was really bad. It's still kind of crappy and I still kind of you know, yeah, I want to sin and you know I still.
Speaker 1:Kind of that would just be like, okay, what are you even saying now? Like this shouldn't even be an apology video. Like why did you think in the first place? I think it's just like a sin of the genre. Honestly, if I something like like this happened to me, I probably wouldn't make a big old statement, I'd probably just take the L and disappear, because it's just hard to not make it something like this. And I get why, especially in the spiritual life, it can be especially grating to people like Mario, because it's awesome to witness to the power of mercy and the power of God's grace. It's awesome to witness to the power of mercy and the power of God's grace, but it's hard to sometimes witness to that power and that mercy without it sounding like you are now getting on a pedestal and lecturing other people about how these things work.
Speaker 3:If you get what I'm saying. Yeah, and also there's a degree of this right, so okay, so we apologize. Do we just move them to another parish now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's basically the same idea of, like the moving the priests around the parishes.
Speaker 3:It's if you just go to a different ministry, uh sort of idea, but yeah let me let me finish christian's video out, because I hate when I watch people react to videos and they don't just let the video play out.
Speaker 2:So I'll let it finish out before we comment again and maybe that's true, but it seems like it's something that you're saying as an angle to get people to trust you and then at the end you performatively read a long prayer in front of everybody. That's never sat well with me. When anybody does that orthodox catholic, probably, I don't care it's never sat well with me. The public praying, praying and all this sort of thing. There's a difference between posting a prayer on Twitter that you think is pretty. There's a difference between things like that and performatively videoing yourself praying. It just doesn't sit well with me. So that's my thoughts on Vore, and I'm really tired of all the moralizing and the comments. Like he who, without sin, cast the first stone.
Speaker 3:I'm just pausing it to annoy everybody, but I'm gonna finish with it.
Speaker 2:Dude, I have sin. I'm just saying that this dude shouldn't have his ministry, that he used to leverage women into sexual situations anymore. That's it. And I'm saying that I don't really buy. I don't buy it. I don't buy that he's not trying to have a foot back into the ministry. If he said that he was walking away from the ministry, I would respect him, but that's not what he said. Instead, he was walking away from the ministry. I would respect him, but that's not what he said. Instead, he's acting like you know.
Speaker 2:Any indication I can come back in, guys, and make that Catholic ink money. I want some of that Catholic ink money and it just lacks all integrity. And the only reason I'm the one talking about it is because I don't see the Catholics talking about it. Before I saw them calling him out. But now that he said sorry, sorry, it seems like it's all good for everybody, so I'm gonna be the one to talk about it if nobody else is so that's what made me want to do this video today is because he called me out, basically, and somebody called him the timu anthony abadi I thought that was hilarious I I like when somebody said I thought this was a captive dreamer video at first taco talks, ortho taco talk video over.
Speaker 3:Uh, yeah, look he's. He's christian mario. That was, uh, that was a good analysis, I think. Uh, yeah, look, there's always a danger in pointing at others sins right like this. Past sunday was just the publican and the tax collector.
Speaker 1:And for the schismatics, not for the the novus ordo, but the bogus ordo was not hey wait, I do.
Speaker 3:I. I've read the uh novus ordo reading too. Hang on, what was the novus ordo this week?
Speaker 1:oh, it was not. Set the world. Set the world on fire. Set the world on fire, yes jesus says yeah, that he has.
Speaker 3:Uh, you know desire no, he came to bring brother against brother, sister against sister, right, yeah, okay, yeah, I forgot it for a second, but I even I know the novus auto reading of you, but now we have the publican and the tax collector for uh, for the, for the uh uh me calling you out for not knowing the novus ordo reading was basically publican and tax collector behavior.
Speaker 1:I was the tax collector like look at this poor, uh schismatic, this rad trad over here that does not know his novus ordo reading, the funny thing is I always read both.
Speaker 3:I always do read both, so. But so I did know it was brother against brother. So I, you know, I've, I've come to bring peace, not not peace, but the sword. But, um, the, the publican and the tax collector is such an interesting one because we all want to think we're the publican, like, oh, lord, have mercy on me.
Speaker 3:So if there is a danger in us pointing somebody else's sin out and like, oh, thank God, I'm not like voice of reason, right, but really there is an element of any one of us could fall into something like this. If it's like, this is this is the point of practicing custody of the eyes and not putting yourself in a situation where you could fall into the it's not, it's it's. There's a whole set of things that come along with when you're, when you're catholic, that you have to make sure you don't put yourself in a situation where you could fall into these things and a lot of. I think what happened to alex was he wasn't, he wasn't on guard for the devil. Like the devil is, you know, roaming the world. Roaming the world seeking the ruin of souls yeah, I think this is.
Speaker 1:This is also why when uh, last time and this time as well, it's you'll find this funny.
Speaker 1:I actually just turned off the comment sections on my video because it's weird. It's like these situations when people go into, uh, when people go into like argue about this and bloodsport about this, like oh, there's, this becomes a very strong occasion of sin to people. Either they will uncharitably judge my motives, they'll uncharitably judge your motives, they'll say crazy things about voice of reason. These sorts of things are very rare for there to be a sort of level-headed, objective critique of saying, hey, wagner, you said this point about him being an actor and how this connected. Very rare for there to be a sort of level head and objective critique of saying, hey, wagner, you said this point about you know him being an actor and how this connected to your analysis of the situation. I think it's wrong for this, this and this reason from his back. Like people aren't giving like critical, like objective analysis of the points that you made. They're usually just like accusing me of like sins or how dare you even talk about this?
Speaker 3:this is gossip and yes, guys, I did mess that up. It's obviously. The publican is the tax collector. It's the publican and the pharisee.
Speaker 1:I apologize, guys oh frick, yeah I messed up.
Speaker 3:um, yeah, look, any any time. I always get those comments whenever I discuss anything like this, where people just jump in the comments and they're like how, how dare you? Like as if we're trying to start a fight within the Catholic world, and that's not at all what we're. What we're doing, I know you and I actually, when we spoke this afternoon, it was look, we want to actually try to help people not be overly rash on this. Right Like you don't want people to just come down and curse the person to damnation. And the other one is be too gullible and welcome somebody in and believe every single word that they're saying, that there just has to be a level of we have to be cautious when things like this happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because a lot of people don't realize this, but gullibility is a vice.
Speaker 1:It's usually called credulousness, but gullibility is a vice because you have a moral obligation to be careful and prudent and aware and to have discernment about these sorts of situations, demanding that I sin by throwing away a sort of common sense reading of the situation and through, obviously, my experience with human nature, my experience with myself, my own vices, how those vices get overcome, my experience with other people and the sort of background details that they have and how sin generally works and its effects, um, it's like inconceivable for me to just kind of throw this all away and to just pretend, like you know.
Speaker 1:Oh, I guess I will just um, go beyond giving somebody the benefit of the doubt and go into a sort of like an infallible assent of faith to every word they say, because they said an apology. I think Mario is completely, you know, he kind of said that the emperor had no clothes on that one, because I almost saw a complete and unanimous, like positive reception outside of Mario and like I tried to soften the blow on the way in which I phrased it, but he kind of just went out and said it sort of a wrecking ball.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, look, I remember the first apology alex came out with was, um, everybody was doing the same thing and I and we were like, wait a minute, like hold on. He's not actually addressing what he's being accused of, he's just addressing the minor accusation, um, and you know, I, I. But part of it is it's not just that, because all of us, especially me and you in this arena, like, we all struggle with um, a bit of vanity, right, like we, we're all trying to fight vanity, right. But part of what he's dealing with is not just the, the stuff behind the scenes, but it's the public spotlight itself, right. So I still don't think he's on guard because he's fighting to get back to the status that greatly contributed to the poll to begin with, like the reason we did the first video.
Speaker 3:He came out that first apology about out and we discussed it, and I think us discussing it and then other people speaking on it is what caused him to take that initial step back to begin with, because he came out firing out with an apology right away, like he was going to come out, defend himself and stay in the public spotlight. But I think the amount of public pressure made him take a step back, and I think it's good for his soul to keep that pressure on him. Like I'm actually concerned with Alex's soul this isn't just about me not liking Alex or something, it's not anything to do with that it's that I'm very concerned that he's going to jump right back into this and fall back into old habits, because these kinds of habits that we're talking about take way more than a month to actually free yourself from.
Speaker 1:These are things that yeah, I was just gonna say, um, you're exactly right, there's, there's something interesting and, uh, providential. This morning, um, I was reading something in saint thomas about vainglory and basically for him he's like vainglory is the, it's good and it's proper to seek the good that is due to you. Like that's totally fine, that's totally good, but to seek an undue good is vicious and that's sort of like the root of pride. Pride is seeking an undue good, but vainglory is specifically seeking the good of adulation. So, like other people you know, sort of viewing you in a positive light. And he says this is specifically vainglory, you're seeking glory from others in ways that are not appropriate.
Speaker 1:And he describes what are called the daughters of vainglory. He says like basically, what are those means whereby one will use to further this vice? And one of them is hypocrory. It says like, basically, what are those means whereby one will use to further this vice? And one of them is hypocrisy. It's very interesting.
Speaker 1:He says hypocrisy is one of the daughters of vainglory, because one is seeking this sort of undue adulation so much from other people that they're willing to hide their own vices and they're willing to propose something outwardly that's different, so that people do not stop this adulation of them. And I think one of the dangers to having, you know, a response like we've had so far is it does tempt him to vainglory, it does tempt him to hypocrisy, tempt him to vainglory, it does tempt him to hypocrisy, to not be honest with himself and open about his own faults because of the sort of adulation, the universal adulation that was received from this and it would seem like this adulation would foster, would falter, rather, if there was an acknowledgement that the resolution that he, the good resolution that he expressed, was not carried out in perfection. So yeah, this is absolutely right, these sorts of responses can very easily especially for somebody who's not constantly guarding themselves against it it can very easily beget this vice of vainglory through hypocrisy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, listen, I'll tell you that that's something I struggle with, right Like I like being the center of attention. I like, you know, no matter where I go to, it's not just on this show Like I go to a party, I'm always trying to be the funny guy I want everybody to, always, you know, not, it's not easy to fight that, and any, I think any of us that step into this, into this area, probably do struggle with it, right like we, we want the attention. But if you're also struggling with something like that, this can this kind of hypes that up, and you know, I mean, yeah, I I'm genuinely concerned for Alex.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know a lot of the people. They're good intention when they're saying stuff like this, because the way that they view it is they kind of view this in a feminine way. I mean, I don't, I don't mean this to be like super offensive, but it's just. This is how females work. You know, when you have somebody who comes out with something like this, the instant desire to have that sort of like comforting presence, like, oh, I'm standing by you, I'm standing behind you, you know. Oh, it's okay, you know it's uh, you know, we receive you, we accept you, and that's like a very feminine coded thing.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know, if I, if I like for me as a man, you know, if I fall into, uh, some sort of vice like this, I'm going to want somebody to keep their foot on my neck, say like, oh, I messed up, I screwed up. I don't want them to just be super soft with me. I want them to be very realistic with me, be like hey, dude, you need to make sure you're doing this, this and this. I will help you out. This is the support of a man for another man. I will help you out with the means and advice that you need in order to overcome this, but the sort of emotional comforting that comes from praising somebody else. That is a very feminine coded thing. So where a lot of people out there who are maybe women or maybe men, who are more effeminate, who are commenting on these issues, they may not recognize that this is, you know, for a man, you know having a sort of infinite adulation, infinite sort of acceptance and, like you described it earlier, glazing to have.
Speaker 1:That sort of response can often do a lot of damage to somebody. It's not the fact that we don't like alex or that we we despise alex or anything like that that we're we're taking this more objective approach. It's the fact that actually, this is exactly what needs to happen.
Speaker 3:Um, and it's unfortunate that there hasn't been this perspective from more people yeah, the people that love him I made this point in our first conversation Like the people that love him should be the first ones telling him you don't belong doing this, like, for the good of you. I feel like I'm the only, like I don't want to say me, but whatever. I feel like we were the only ones. When we came out and talked about this, everybody was accusing us of something, when in reality, I felt like we were the only ones caring enough about him to to talk about this, to tell him no, this is not okay. You cannot. You cannot just come out with this weak apology and then just get right back into this thing.
Speaker 3:So supporting your friend means dragging them to heaven, not cheering them on as they sprint towards hell. Hold your people accountable. Yeah, there's a, there's a. There's an element of um justice that we've lost in the church, that it's this over-emphasis on mercy, to the point where people downplay the seriousness of sin, and it's happened throughout the church at this point where everything is just kind of downplayed to lowering the moral standard, and especially over the past, you know, couple of decades, where you hear all the time like sins of the flesh are the, you know, the least of the sins and they are in that they're the probably. Like you know, jesus always forgave the prostitute and things like that. But sins of the flesh lead to sins of the heart, so you have to hold people accountable when it comes to things like that for their heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I definitely agree. I think that this is a sort of way forward that we all need to be, and this is sort of a message for a lot of you guys. Um, it's, it's very easy when you see a lot of these people who and this is something that I've I've had to like learn a lot and try to check myself on a lot. When you see other people who are like in these comment sections, just saying like oh, you know, you know, are you perfect? Oh, like you know, you shouldn't, like you're gossiping, like accusing you of all of these things, speaking ill of your name, you know all of these different things, just for having a very sort of moderate, level headed, realistic take on this, obviously like not committing any sort of sins against him, just to recognize that that other person, yes, they are doing something which is objectively wrong. You need to get into their mindset of how they're falsely thinking about this and try to explain it to them in a way to where they understand why this is something which is based on love. It's not based on hatred or judgmental-ness. It's based on love for him and, most importantly, the love that one ought to have for all of his neighbors, all of those neighbors who are, and all of those fellow Catholics of yours who are seeing this situation play out, of yours who are seeing this situation play out, and if they see this treated in a way that is not in accordance with prudence and not in accordance with those principles in which we ought to hold of common sense, then what's going to happen is a lot of your brethren are going to be falling into sin. They're going to be genuinely scandalized. This is what scandal means.
Speaker 1:Scandal means not offending somebody. Scandal means that you are leading another person into sin. They're going to be genuinely scandalized. This is what scandal means. Scandal means not offending somebody. Scandal means that you are leading another person into sin. Scandal happens by example, and part of the example is a very light treatment of these sorts of situations, and you can play into the hand of scandal by, uh, treating them in this way. So I would encourage everybody who's probably a lot more um listening right now, it's probably a lot more sympathetic to what I'm saying to. When you are interacting with those other people, try to actually like explain things. I know it's really hard, you know I I have the temptation to just like block the person, or just like tell them they're being an idiot or say like OK, are you dumb? You know it's like it's very easy to do that and like I'm always tempted to do that, but you know, at your better moments try to reflect on this fact that you need to do that.
Speaker 3:All right. So, honestly, I do think everybody needs to pray for Alex, and I mean that genuinely, I'm not just like say like really pray for Alex, and I mean that genuinely, I'm not just like say like really pray for Alex, and I mean I I think if Alex does see this, alex, you need to consider another line of work. You need to figure something else out. Like this is not the path. You're not going to be a Catholic commentator, you're not going to be an apologist, you're not going to be a catechist. It's not going to happen. You have to figure something else out.
Speaker 3:I don't know what that means for you, but this ain't it. And I don't think anybody should enable him to come back into this space out of love for him, not out of enmity or anger or anything like that. Out of love for him and out of care for the people who enjoyed him. Like there's just, you know, we, you just kind of have to do this. Um, I, I honestly I feel bad for him because I can't imagine what that's like, but it's not. But he doesn't have a wife and children. So this, you know it's, it's not, it's not the end of the world for him.
Speaker 1:It's not like you know he's going to be out on the street or anything, but he needs to figure something else out. Yeah, I, I mean, I I think that there's a lot of different ways in which this could, uh, this could, look. I I think that, um, one of the most illustrative examples of this from a previous generation, which we brought up in the beginning, is actually the the situation with E Michael Jones and Michael Voris. So, for those who don't know, michael Voris practicing homosexual, continuously practicing homosexual for a very long time, including after he reverted to the church and this was about to be exposed. So he himself admitted to it in an apology video that bears striking resemblance to a lot of what Voice of Reason was saying. And he came back, he said I repented, I left that lifestyle behind. Everyone's like oh okay, this is awesome.
Speaker 1:E Michael Jones, after that was exposed, said no, you were practicing homosexual for a very long time. You have, you can see the effects of some of these sins. These sins are very grievous and they affect your soul at such a deep level that you need to step away for a very long time. Go behind the scenes. You know you can still work in media, but go behind the scenes, don't be in front of the camera. That easily plays into your pride. It plays into a lot of different vices that homosexuals often struggle with. So you need to sit back. I will myself like he said, I will myself become the owner and CEO of the company, and Michael Voris completely refused. A few years later, it was exposed that Michael Voris was engaging in the same exact behavior of a sort of homosexual strain and he lost everything. Church Milliton completely fell apart and then now he's still trying to seek attention on some backwater YouTube channel, getting 100 views after apologizing for the 70th time.
Speaker 1:And I think this is an illustrative example and the advice of E Michael Jones is prudent Get away from the camera can very easily inflame a lot of those bad dispositions that are acquired through these types of sins, and you don't need to completely leave in every single way. Anthony probably disagrees with me, but you don't need to completely leave uh in in every single way. I don't. Anthony probably disagrees with me, but um, uh, you don't need to leave completely in every single way. Uh, you can write stuff. You can. There's a behind the scenes. You could edit videos like there's a lot of different ways you can help catholic action if truly that is your passion, and not wanting to get back in front of the camera. So, yeah, yeah, I think that everybody should should look back and think about the Michael Voris, the Michael Jones situation, because it could easily spiral into something like this and it shows a lot of the same patterns actually.
Speaker 3:That's actually really, really good advice that you just like, like there's other ways you could do, you could do this without being in the public. I like that. Like if you, if you could do, you could do this without being in the public eye. Like that Like if you, if you really do have something to contribute, you just don't need your face and name out there. Like that you could just contribute and even have a pseudonym or something like that. If you think it's valuable to the church and this is, you know, that's a. That's a totally different way to go about it. That's a. That's an interesting point. I didn't even think of something like that. Um, christian, you got a little bit longer. I want to. I want to talk to you on on locals for a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, that's fine. I'm supposed to play call of duty a little bit later, but I need you like like 20 minutes.
Speaker 3:I want to get to the bottom of this Catholic ink thing that you went and did this this creator conference little bit.
Speaker 1:Okay, we can, we can talk about that. You can harass me about it, yeah, no no, we're gonna.
Speaker 3:We're gonna do a little talk. I want to. I want to see how your uh, how your weekend over there was with them. So if you guys aren't locals members, come join us over on locals. Uh, I want to talk to christian a little bit about some of the, some of the things he did while he was over there. Uh, and maybe uh get to the, to the bottom of some some of his scandal that he's put forth before everybody. I'm going to start removing these other streams. Facebook's gone.
Speaker 1:Everybody on my channel real quick, want to go through some of these super chats. Hey boys, your Boomer Mimi here, hello Boomer Mimi, Pray the rosary so true. Pray the rosary at the TLM so true. And yeah, that's all of them. But everybody, reminder, follow the shorts account.
Speaker 3:I will talk to you guys, uh, later, goodbye yeah, anybody that's, uh, that's subbed to Christian and not avoiding Babylon goes up to avoiding Babylon, even sub to avoiding Babylon and not scholastic answers go so yeah, because I'm I'm like 500 away from 30 K, so getting close and Christians are Christians a really, really good friend and we want to support our friends.
Speaker 3:So there may be a. Me and Christian have talked about like conferences in the future and things like that, so there might be some things coming up. So help, help. Christian have talked about like conferences in the future and things like that, so there might be some things coming up. So help, help, help one another's channels out and, uh, share the show. And here goes the youtube feed.
Speaker 1:Let's say that's removed, all right, I gotta get rid of x, hang on, that would be pretty cool to have. Uh, have a catholic uh creators conference, uh, but for all the trads, I could be the bridge that binds the Catholic Inc and trad creator conferences.
Speaker 3:That's what's interesting. That's kind of what I wanted to talk to you about, because you put out a video after you would have gone there. All right, we're good, we're just on locals. You put out a video after you had gone there and you kind of hinted at, like you see, some avenues for collaboration and things like that. And you you had said, um, you didn't get grief for anything. You thought you would Right, like you, you will. You thought like you thought it might've been like some of the Jewish content.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that wasn't really what you caught crap for Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought I thought it was going to be like some of the comments on race that I've made, some like the political stuff. You know, some of the comments on the jews, you know, I thought it was going to be stuff like that. You know, other tradisms, like you know, the random stuff people get like pissy about, uh, like limbo, or you know just random stuff they'll get pissy about. But no, that, like I, and some of those topics came up. I won't say which ones, but some of them came up and they were very. Almost everybody I talked to there was. You know they they are Gen Z. They are right, you know, and that's you know. Draw your implications, but that's just how they are and there's a lot of room for agreement on those things.
Speaker 3:It typically comes down to streams like this that they hate, right, like what we did tonight, like that's, that's, that's pretty much what they dislike. But I'm, I'm curious what their position on on israel is like. Were they, were they never offended by any of that? Because, because you're you and I have had like pretty good conversations on you know.
Speaker 1:I've said I think, it was like um, so if, if I were to, uh, if I were to like kind of summarize it a little bit, I think most of the Gen Z people kind of uh, share like our views on on Israel and like having like I don't think there's anybody there who's like a james lindsey style, like anti-woke right person you know, I don't think there's anybody like that there.
Speaker 1:um, I think that with the generation above, so, if you're talking, some of the catholic answers, apologists, um, like, obviously, mattadd, like they're going to generally have a more positive view of Israel, but I think a lot of the people that I'm talking to you've probably never heard their names before. There are a lot of the people who are the editors, who are the people behind the scenes working in the organization, like those sorts of people, some in front of the camera but most of them behind the camera, and it's very interesting to to talk to. How many of the people had very positive appreciation for what I do and how many of them said that they watch my streams or they have watched my streams, that they think that you know they'd like me seeing, like to see me doing this or that, but yeah, I mean they. You know they'd like me, seem like to see me doing this or that, but yeah, I mean they. With the things that they didn't like about me, they, directly to my face, confronted me right away, and they were not secret about it.
Speaker 3:It was so refreshing actually. Yeah, it actually is refreshing when people just come right out and tell you what their issue is. You know, like, like you'd rather know, and I look, I think both of us are always going to fall into this issue. If you're going to comment on things that are happening in the Catholic world, like it's almost unavoidable to discuss people that they're friends with, I see it as a long housing where they're, they're all afraid to criticize the women in that sphere because they all want to be on the women's podcast, right, so they all want to be on Lila's podcast. They all want to be on religious hippies pocket. I know you guys are besties now I don't want to, but I kind of see it as they're all afraid to criticize like things that need that hat that there should there is valid criticism for, but it's like it's this almost false version of charity where it's like like you just have to be nice, be nice no matter what, and you can never have a critique Like I I'm kind of, I had a, I had a back and forth with Novus Ordo watch, right, and I I put out a video with some of my concerns with set of a countism and Novus Ordo watch did a rebuttal video of my video but it was like totally charitable and it was completely fine, like I I there was no personal insults on either of our end.
Speaker 3:It was critiquing the actual substance of what I was saying and it turned into hey, maybe critiquing the actual substance of what I was saying and it turned into hey, maybe we could just jump on stream together and just have a conversation, because I do think there's a lot of uh which I cause. When I put that video out it was like a you know hit record and just like a stream of consciousness and I didn't. It's not like I wrote it or anything, I didn't really think it out and I kind of just spit some things out. But there are some serious things inside of accountism that I would want to question somebody like that on without it being a debate. It doesn't have to be an argument, but I think there's ways to handle these discussions without it becoming personal or thinking we're insulting. But you can have disagreements on a topic, substantial disagreements, and still remain cordial with one another. But I think they go ahead and still remain cordial with one another.
Speaker 1:But I think we're because I kind of and I think that these are the sort of limits for my interactions with a lot of people is, with a lot of people I will like, even sometimes the conversation gets a little heated and you will have like the stronger language, the stronger condemnations, and that's that's like. That's fine. It's a bit of a sort of like masculine thing where you can, um, have those uh, the sort of increased rhetoric, I guess would be the best way. But where I uh, where I kind of draw the line, is when there's a, a sort of personal disrespect for another person. So, like, if somebody goes and like calls me stupid, they're like you're stupid, you're dumb, or something like that. Once they start saying those things, or they'll start going for like oh, you're a young man, you don't know what you're talking about. When they go for those things, it's like okay, come on now.
Speaker 3:We're not dealing with the substance of an argument here.
Speaker 1:You could say a lot of different things. You could say my argument's stupid, like I'm sure I've given a lot of stupid arguments you could. You could say like a lot of different things about me, but once you like start trying to personally disrespect like me, it's like okay, like this is just not going to work out. There has to be a base of respect that make these things productive, even when they get heated. If you still have that respect, then it's able to be fruitful.
Speaker 3:But when there's no respect, like that's just I'm just not there for it, I'll just yeah there's also like a level of where where men can spar a bit and even if they have it out, they can sit down and talk out their differences after. Like tim gordon was taking shots at me on his stream today because, yeah, because I, I just look him and taylor. They just you know him and taylor like oil and water, and I just had taylor on and tim was taking shots at me on his streams and saying that we were like I don't know whatever he was saying, but like I don't care, like whatever, but that's because I'm friends with him, so I could. You know, when a friend insults me, I I kind of like just take it as a jab, but if it's somebody that I think is not a friend taking a shot at me, it's like I want to go for the jugular. You know, like I'm going to. There's going to be some hands thrown in that situation.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I would like to be able to, because I think a lot of those guys even like like me, but they're afraid to associate with me because of the baggage I bring where, you know, I did criticize one of their friends or something like that. But I think that Catholic Inc really needs to add you to their stable man Like there's. There's so much potential for you because you fit in well with like presenting especially Tomism in a good way, but I'm I'm worried they're going to neuter you if they do it.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, no, I don't want to see a neutered. I won't be neutered. I won't be neutered for sure. I mean, if I, if I ever was, I would I would assume that a lot of people, people would be saying stuff uh to me about it. I, I don't, I don't think that. I I think that it's appropriate to like understand the different types of rhetoric that are appropriate for different situations. You know, like I'm a live streamer, like I'm a live streamer, sometimes I say, just to be like funny and provocative, I'll just say things like on the uh.
Speaker 1:For anybody who deny like doubts that I'm genuine about this, literally watch the charity stream, watch my segment in the charity stream. I was joking about saying racial slurs during the, the charity stream for catholic inc. It's like, and they thought it was funny, they thought it was hilarious. People literally walked, like while I was sitting there on the little couch, people walked downstairs so they didn't have to watch me say these things through a television. They wanted to like to see me say it in person. They thought it was hilarious like they thought it was so funny. We had a lot of fun actually, uh, and I heard, I heard uh become the night took a little shot at me and you backed me up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I did I did yeah, yeah, yeah, become the night. That guy's awesome, uh, yeah yeah, I messaged him afterward.
Speaker 3:I was like dude, like, because I think a lot of those guys think I'm a certain way that, because I, you know, maybe I presented myself a certain way when I was arguing against lofton or something like that, but like, men need to be able to have an argument or have a disagreement and then just get on and hash it out. I feel like we've lost that in our culture completely, where even um, no, he would be a bad example but um, yeah, like I, I think I think there's something healthy about like two guys that really maybe didn't like each other at one time, but then when they sit and have a conversation and they can actually, you know, have a beer together and just, oh yeah, I mean that was this thing out.
Speaker 1:Like Tim Gordon, we obviously had some very fiery exchanges I don't know a year and a half, two years ago, and recently he had watched my video taking down Michael Lofton on his other religion comments and he thought it was just an awesome video, like he thought it was really. He thought it was good, he was impressed by the quality of it. So he posted it and tagged me in it and I was like, dude, we're still kind of blocked on Twitter, so we moved past that and we started texting and we have a lot in common. He seemed like a chill dude, so it'll be awesome to meet him in person for the first time.
Speaker 1:But it is those sorts of things where I've had a lot of experiences of and I try to hold this as a rule. Now to where I've had bad, very bad experiences with people online. But once you just kind of start talking to somebody in person or in DMs or whatever else it may be, you're more willing to give a latitude to the other person as well and like not take something as uh, as personally. It's like, oh, even when they disagree with me, they're probably like they probably genuinely mean it. It's whatever we disagree, it's not a huge deal, uh sort of thing there's there's something about being online and arguing, especially when you don't know the person.
Speaker 3:Like you, you, you, you're willing to say things and take shots that you, if you were ever face to face with that person, you would never cross that line. You would talk to them totally differently. And especially if you're willing to say things and take shots that you, if you were ever face to face with that person, you would never cross that line, you would talk to them totally differently. And especially if you're arguing with an anonymous person, like it's very hard to remember there's a human being behind that avatar, you know, and you just it's, it's. It's a hard thing for all of us like not, you know, not just me, and you like anybody that's online.
Speaker 3:When you're disagreeing with people on twitter specifically, man, like you forget there's a person back there and they forget you're a person, and you just start saying things and then you get the whole guilt by association thing where you, oh, if you like this thing, if you disagree with me on one thing, I can't like that person. And it's like if we were just at a bar together and just having a beer, we would be friends. It's a, it's a, it's a weird silly thing and I, I, yeah I also think there's these weird presuppositions.
Speaker 1:Uh, there was, uh it admittedly it was after like a, a night of drinking that I posted it, um, but I posted the like lafev is cool, you know, I, I was just wanting to troll, you know, I was to be honest, I just kind of wanted to rage bait some people. I was like lefebvre is cool and I tweeted send tweet. Um, the next morning I I like woke up and I was like frick, I think. I posted this tweet and I like checked it. I was like dang it. I did post a tweet, um, so, like I was like okay, well, I need to defend.
Speaker 1:Now I can't say I was wrong about this, that would be awful. But, um, you know, it's uh, it's a sort of thing where I saw a lot of the uh, but actually some good came out of it, because I noticed I actually noticed a lot of things. But because there were a lot of people who were like in the comments saying like you cannot say that a schismatic is cool, and I thought about that, I was like that is the most retarded thing I've ever heard in my life. It's like okay, but let's suppose for a second. You know, obviously you're a SSPX, I'm not SSPX.
Speaker 1:Let's, let's have this assumption right now that Lefebvre, for the sake of argument, is a schismatic. Does that mean he's not cool? No, schismatic does that mean it's not cool? No, there's a lot of people who are super cool. They're super awesome that we're definitely not super catholic. So, like the, the sort of like internet brain rot as well. To like compartmentalize so much to where, like, unless one is in complete ideological agreement with me, like I can't even admit something as simple as like they were just cool and interesting.
Speaker 3:Christian Mario. I mean, he's orthodox, he's technically a schismatic. Not only is he cool, like I think I consider him a friend like him and I talk outside of Twitter. Like I talked to him on the phone especially he had gone through something a couple months back and I spoke to him on the phone for like an hour. He was going through some, some like relationship stuff and like I had like a really long conversation with him to help him like go through a difficult time he was going through. And it's like if I can't say he's cool because he's not cat, like are you people insane? It's just totally nuts to me.
Speaker 1:It was like the, the pope respecter guy, or uh, can't remember which guy it was.
Speaker 3:Modern Boethius or something. Modern Boethius, it was Modern Boethius, yeah, he was like schismatics are not cool.
Speaker 1:And then I started posting a bunch of different people I found to be super cool. I'm like dude. I think my freaking pet fish back there in the tank is super cool. What do you mean? My fish is not Catholic. I think a lot of people are cool. I think there was a time when donald trump was super cool. Um, not anymore. I think there was a time when donald trump was super cool. I think that, um, uh, that you know, there's historical figures like I think napoleon was super cool. I think that, uh, I think that julius caesar was super freaking cool. I think that, uh, porphyry, you know, I think he was cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but they wouldn't say it about any of those guys, it's just Lefebvre. He's like a.
Speaker 1:I don't get it. They'll say, like I wouldn't ask him is Palamas cool? That's always the one where they just like start seething. They're like ergh, but he was mentally ignorant there's just something about
Speaker 1:lefebvre. That just drives people nuts. And the fact is that he is. He was cool like. He just he had he had awesome drip, like, and the guy was just, he was just cool, like, even when I disagree with him, I'm like this is like. Admittedly he was a little, he was a frenchman. You know, he, he has a penchant for being a little bit dramatic at times. So like when you hear some of the things you'd say it's like okay, dude, that's a little bit dramatic, but like you said it in like a really freaking cool way, it's like I, I, I can't hate on this, it was just like a really cool way in which you said this there's also, um, I have a rule of never, never drinking and tweeting anymore, because I don't say things like that like everyone said the n-word no, no.
Speaker 3:Well, that was sober that was totally so when I wrote that, no, I'll, I'll. I'll tweet sappy stuff like, oh it's so bad, like I'll tweet stuff about my like loving my wife or something, and I'm like I'll look at the next I was like it was the most disgusting thing I've ever seen in my life. What is wrong with me? So you turn gay. You turn gay when yeah, I get, I get super like italian sappy, and gay when I drink.
Speaker 1:It's bad yeah, I'm, I'm a nord, I'm a germanic, so I I turn like total war when I'm drinking that's, that's it.
Speaker 3:And I've hung out with you when we drank, actually that that was like the first time. I think we both realized, like man, I really like this guy like we had a fun time together just hanging out, me and me and christian watched some guy drink jameson and chocolate milk and he started off telling us how good it was and I'm like that doesn't sound right, and a half hour later he was vomiting his brains out. Yeah, I've never try Jameis in a chocolate milk man. But yeah, dude, I'm really glad that you and I have struck up a friendship. I always enjoy streaming with you. You reached out to me today.
Speaker 3:I was concerned with doing this stream because I have kind of put myself in this arena where I'm always the guy commenting on this stuff, and I had this thought over the weekend of like where, where do I kind of want to go with this show? And then, of course, this stupid drama came up. But, like I was, I was thinking, cause I was with a friend this weekend who's um he was raised Catholic Um and recently he asked me if I had a good audio Bible that he could listen to. So when I hung out with him this weekend, I was talking to him I was like hey, did you get a chance to listen to the audio Bible? And he's like no, not, really not yet. And I told him he should probably sit and read a gospel instead of just listening to it on audiobook, because something happens to us when we read the gospels, especially when you go through the Sermon on the Mount, things like that.
Speaker 3:And that conversation developed into what happens in eternity with what gods we follow in this life. I forgot how the conversation came up, but I was just saying, like, whatever gods you follow in this life, you're going to chase into eternity. So if it's, if you're chasing money, if you're chasing women, whatever it is, whatever it is, whatever god you follow here, you're going to follow into that next life. And and the conversation seemed to have struck him and it got me thinking like man, all the, all the different directions this show has gone, the most valuable are always when you have that eureka moment, when something like deep happens in a conversation and somebody that might have been atheist or somebody that you know might be away from the faith for a while, like something just clicked with them and it's like oh, like those messages you get when somebody's like dude.
Speaker 3:Listening to your stream made me go back to confession for the first time in 10 years, or um, I got this one kid that follows me that was a Protestant and he's like I don't know. Listening to your show just made me want to become Catholic and now he watches every episode and stuff. So I was trying to think of ways to kind of bring a few episodes at least a few episodes back to something a little bit more concrete.
Speaker 1:And then this stupid drama came up and I was like fighting the temptation to not do it and then you texted me and it was a wrap, I'm a weak man, yeah, I mean I, I think that, um, that's also like because I, I have those, I have those thoughts as well. It's like, okay, you know my, am I gonna stream for the 57th time on the philio quay and peter diamond? And it's like, okay, well, there are still, there are still people diamond. And it's like, okay, well, there are still, there are still people because and it's not really so much, uh, on like the peter diamond thing, that there are people who are diamondites like, yeah, sure, they exist, but they're like pretty rare, um, and a lot of them aren't super, super serious. But you do have the people like of the, like a redeemed zoomer class where they will watch like Peter Diamond videos to figure out arguments against the church. Um, so it's like it's very valuable for those people.
Speaker 1:And even though it's not something that I would like to do, like I would like to talk about other things than this issue for the 5,000th time and uh, but I also know that there there's a certain like detachment from my own will on these points when I do those sorts of streams where it's like, yeah, it's, it's useful, for I don't like doing it, but it's useful for people and I know that there will genuinely be people who are.
Speaker 1:That's what I think about each time. It's like it's crazy you get 10,000 people who watch a stream. It's like it's crazy you get 10 000 people who watch a stream. Like there are probably like dozens, if not hundreds, of people who legitimately like this has an effect on them, like it would be awesome if it was everybody, but you know it's only a percentage of them. But like there's people, dozens, hundreds of people who had, you know, a minor part of their life changed by you know, something that I said, maybe in a cumulative way, maybe in a indirect way, but it's changes people. And to to kind of put that as the end and then ask for the grace to be able to discern that rather than going at like whatever I find to be the most entertaining or the most lucrative.
Speaker 3:Well, it's a difficult balance, right, because, look, we have to be entertaining or nobody's going to watch so, and sometimes, like a show like tonight will bring a new viewer in, right, like they would have never saw your stream before. But then all of a sudden they catch it and they're like, oh, these guys are kind of entertaining and then they watch the next one that does have that deep moment in it. So it's a. It really is a tricky thing to do where you have to balance entertainment with, every once in a while, putting something with a little depth to it. Then sometimes you have to open up and share some personal stuff because something had an effect on you and somebody can identify with your struggle that you're going through, or something like that. People that see people podcasting or they see people putting out content. It's not that easy to come up with a new thing to talk about every single episode. Every once in a while you pick a low-hanging fruit. Today's low-hanging fruit was Voice of Reason. I don't know what to tell you guys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is that sort of thing as well. Because what's crazy is I was talking to somebody, um, who's like a frequent viewer of mine probably watches like 60, 70, like that sort of range of viewer which is usually pretty good. Most of your subs aren't viewing you that much, um and I like he asked a question about immigration or something. I'm like, oh well, I treated this like four or five months ago just go re-watch that. And he's like what? Like I've never seen this before? And you think about it's like, okay, well, you could, I could literally schedule out six months of streams and just repeat the same thing every six months, and most of my audience wouldn't even notice that I'm doing it because just the way the algorithm works, it's so weird.
Speaker 3:I've had that conversation with Rob because Rob rolls his eyes a lot when I repeat stuff and I'm like dude, you don't realize, not everybody's sitting here having the conversation with me, like you are, some people catch 20 minutes of your show, so you do have to repeat stories and you do have to say the same thing over and over. And he's like so sick of the Israel conversation. But it's like that. I thought we had a really good conversation about israel with taylor marshall the other day, really really good.
Speaker 3:Like taylor, I couldn't believe how freaking based he was on it and he like he was like you know, the end times gonna have worldwide jewelry and like I mean really oh, he went off and it and it and it, because I I've repeated the same my my position on it a bunch of times, which is I basically see america as the new roman empire, which is like the return of the beast, and israel is the whore of babylon riding on the beast, you know, and it's an image that I kind of have imprinted in my head. And when I gave that to taylor, taylor just ran with it, but I saw rob kind of being like oh, in my head. And when I gave that to Taylor, taylor just ran with it, but I saw Rob kind of being like, oh gosh, here we go again. But you never know what you're going to get out of somebody.
Speaker 3:And that clip, a lot of people saw it on Twitter that don't normally watch our show and they were like, wow, this is pretty cool and that and telling personal stories, like things that happened to me from when I was a kid. Not everybody watches every single episode. And then you get people who feel like they're missing out on an inside joke if you make a reference to something before. But yeah, it's kind of the trick to doing radio, essentially Like you got to tell the same talking points over and over, especially if it's a good one and that's kind of how you get your messaging through to people and then they can actually articulate the point you're trying to make, because they heard you say it a few times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's also. Another weird thing is you have to like and this is something that I used to think was one of my weaknesses that I kind of had this like OCD thing where I needed to overly contextualize literally everything, where I would just need to explain it back to the principles, where I'm getting at this and I need to explain all the details and stuff like that. I used to think that was a super big weakness of mine, that I couldn't be super concise about those things and that I needed to over-explain and lengthen it, where most people would just give you a 30-second answer. But I've actually found that that's actually part of the reason why a lot of people watch me is I do like to kind of take things back to their principles, explain the reasoning out, like explain kind of where we're branching off at all these distinctions, and people are able to come away and say, okay, well, if you would have just given me, like the, the 30 second answer, I would have been able to like repeat a mantra, but I kind of wouldn't have understood like the inner workings of what was going on here.
Speaker 1:Um, but yeah, that that's so. Also another thing with uh, streaming is you just gotta you just gotta explain things in a way that's overly like exuberant. It sort of reminds me of uh uh, what nick does on america. First, a lot is is nick does this is he will explain a point that most people would explain in two minutes and he'll take 20 minutes to expound upon it, but it really does lead to um a understanding for a lot of people who don't have the sort of powers of perception to cut through um the issue to its core.
Speaker 3:Well, think about Jesus. I'm not comparing either of us to Jesus, but think about Jesus traveling around with the apostles. Right, he gave that Sermon on the Mount not one time. He gave that Sermon on the Mount several times. He repeats the same things over and over throughout those three years, to the point where all the things Jesus said are kind of ingrained in their heads. So that's how they're writing the Gospels and they have such an accurate account of the things Jesus said.
Speaker 3:Because you sit there for the Sermon on the Mount the first time and it's like your mind is blown. You sit there for the second time and you're starting to process it. It would be like going on tour with Dr Scott Hahn and listening to one of his presentations. Yeah, if you're on tour with him the first one, you're like, wow, this is amazing. By the fifth time you're watching him give that presentation, you can repeat it, you can actually give Scott Hahn's presentation, you know.
Speaker 3:So it's a lot like that for us, especially, like we went through like a period where all we talked about was the ancient world and the spread of christianity in the ancient world, and we discussed it for a solid five, six months and then it kind of we were like all right, we're done with this. Then we kind of got onto new, uh young earth creation and evolution. We spent like four or five months discussing evolution not every single episode, but it was like a theme running through the show for a few months, um, and then, like you wait for a new thing to kind of pop up that you, that you're ready to rest on, and like spend a couple of episodes on and really expound on and it helps. It helps me work out my thoughts on things and it helps me kind of uh like have have these, uh, uh, especially on the saints, like we did this.
Speaker 3:We did we had a conversation with Joshua Charles about relics and the saints and it made me really have an understanding of how, how important patron saints are, because there's like the spirit of the saint replaced the God that was worshiped in that area and the and the. The saint, like the patron saint spirit, actually resides in the city and the thing you love in the patron saint is actually Christ. Every single saint has a different aspect of the life of Christ and every saint only has a special aspect of Christ. None of them are Christ, but there's something in each saint that you love, and the thing you love in them is Christ. So when you have a patron saint, there's something about Christ's spirit that resides over that city and it kind of is the governing spirit of that city that replaced the pagan god that was worshipped before that, and it took me a few conversations to actually piece that together and understand that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome, but my COD players are All right. I'm going gonna let you go.
Speaker 3:all right, christian thank you for doing this, man. I'll let you fly. We'll do this again soon, man. Thank you absolutely. God bless adios brother oh.
