Pope Leo Responds as Trump and MAGA Declare War on Catholics

Pope Leo XIV has responded — and the battle lines between MAGA and faithful Catholics have never been clearer. In this episode, we break down Trump's escalating rhetoric, the coordinated effort to cast Catholics as enemies of America, and why the election of an American Pope may be the most providential event of our time.

We discuss the rise of "kosher Catholicism" promoted through outlets like the Daily Wire, why figures like Eric Metaxas, James Lindsay, and Jeremy Boring are suddenly targeting Catholic integralism, and how Protestant Zionist voices are working to redefine what it means to be a faithful Catholic in America.

We also dive into the deeper spiritual questions — Nostra Aetate, the failures of the American bishops on immigration, divine judgment, and whether real persecution is now at the doorstep of the American Church. Is Pope Leo the heel the Church needs to stand against the spirit of the age?

📌 Topics covered:
Pope Leo XIV's response to Trump and the MAGA movement
The "war on Catholics" from the Protestant Zionist sector
Catholic integralism and why it's suddenly under attack
"Kosher Catholicism" and the Daily Wire pipeline
Nostra Aetate, Vatican II, and the end of the Great Commission
Immigration as divine judgment
Eschatology and the coming persecution of the Church

🔔 Subscribe for more: Standing against Babylon, one episode at a time.#PopeLeoXIV #Catholic #Trump #MAGA #CatholicChurch #VaticanII #NostraAetate #CatholicIntegralism #AvoidingBabylon

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Transcript

Cold Open And Quick Banter

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Let's consider the case of your average Jew. We can simply analyze the numbers. We can look at the numbers of Jews who serve in the United States military from the United States versus the number of Jews who serve in the IDF from the United States. We can look at the number of Jews who will often fight and argue for the temporal welfare of Israel.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

That was good.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

That was a gem. That was I like that.

SPEAKER_05 0:49

Zavvy. We love our Zavie.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

He could have called me a little bit more out of context, though. My favorite one was when somebody did this, and I just happened to say, I don't even uh I think it was something like the amount of oh, it was the one he did with the amount of Jews in North Dakota. Because it's like no, no, like the Jewish, the Jewish sort of um like bodily constitution does not do well with extreme colds.

SPEAKER_05 1:18

That's why they're the Middle Eastern people. It's the one state they can't make it to.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

So they like North Dakota, South Dakota, it's like 200 Jews. It's it's crazy low population.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

There's a few thousand in Minnesota, but they're all in like a six-block radius in St. Paul. No, they all live in New York with me.

Trump Tweet Sparks Catholic Fallout

SPEAKER_05 1:36

I'm dealing with all of them. Well, okay, man. We um we had quite an exciting past 48 hours, man. It's like I I I I went to bed last night. Rob, did you text me last night the the Trump tweet? Yeah, you texted me last night. Like, I was off X for the night. I was laying down with my wife, and all of a sudden Rob sends me Trump's tweet about Pope Leo. And I'm just like, holy cow, this guy every single day gets more and more deranged. This crash out does not want to end. It started on Good Friday and it has gone right through the Easter octave. We have had nonstop mental derangement from Trump, and watching the reaction from the Catholic world has been interesting because you have a bunch of the boomer Catholics who are just still on the Trump train. Most of them are sedes. And I have this theory that they have replaced, they have such daddy issues and such hurt from the Pope over the last you know decade or so that they've basically replaced the Pope with Trump and they see him as a messianic figure themselves.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Yeah, I I definitely agree. Uh the last the last week is just well, we can actually, it's been like the last month, actually. No, it's sure it's been we one could say it's been a a solid like two years, three years that he's been going really down hard, but the past month has just been insane.

Iran Rhetoric And Who Sounds Extreme

SPEAKER_03 3:08

It's definitely since Iran started.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Yeah, the the comments about Iran have been like maddening, absolutely maddening. Because you see, you see like the the there's sort of an image that you get of the you know the radical Islamists. Obviously, there's a lot of stuff about Iran that I don't like in the regime that I don't like. You get the image on the one hand of the of the radical Islamists who are willing to you know go out there and chop people's heads off, and they're sounding extremely reasonable and they're like, okay, let's get a deal, let's do this with respect and you know, with a a degree of unity with one another and you know, mutual negotiations. And then on the other hand, you have Trump of just like, I'm gonna blow them the hell up, I'm gonna destroy their civilization, I'm gonna kill everyone. And it's like, okay, well, who's the terrorist here? You know, it it seems like this is one one one of these individuals is engaging in you know terrorist threats, killing leaders, bombing schools, and then lying about it, blockading the Strait of Hermuz all of a sudden, blockading civilian ports, threatening to destroy uh vital infrastructure. And the other group is uh, you know, seemingly coming to the table with a lot of very reasonable rhetoric. And I think they're playing Donald Trump like a fiddle. Uh, and unfortunately, I don't know why he isn't being leashed by more reasonable minds, but you know, the thing that you got to realize about Trump is he he's got a huge pride issue. Yeah, that's one of the one of the things about Trump is he's just addicted to himself, his own image, and he will just lie and lie and lie in order to support it. It's kind of coming to bite him now.

SPEAKER_05 4:45

Yeah, I'm just kind of sick of it all. And uh he's got a he's got a uh he's got a messiah complex. Like he does he thinks he's Nero. And the things that that are happening are just it's just at a point where I'm I'm kind of just sick of um Catholics who are first of all we it starts off with Leo making this like generic call for dialogue and peace, and the and the crash out from everybody was he's a Marxist, he's a liberal. And I'm like, I'm not even like trying to get into like the Pope spleen or thing here, but like this was such a milked toast, like generic statement you would expect from a Pope. Like it wasn't even remotely controversial, and watching people flip out like he's a communist because they only can see things. Um people people only see things through this dialectic of conservative version and that these people man, I can't do it. Guys are delusional, no Catholics see him as messianic, but you all have serious PDS. It was just a stupid tweet. Get over it.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

You are the people with PDS, do you not realize that? You're just delusional the other direction.

Anti-Catholic Narratives And Integralism

Faith Cannot Be A Political Tool

SPEAKER_05 6:00

Look, people that only see things through uh a political lens are broken because they see everything the Pope does as uh uh a a challenge to Trump, and everything Trump does as a challenge to Leo, and it's what the way I see like someone like that woman is she's no different than Christopher Hale. Like Christopher Hale sees Leo as taking down MAGA Catholics, and these people see it this it's just the two sides of the same coin. And what I see coming down the horizon is a coordinated effort against Catholics, and it's coming from the Zionist sector of the like the Protestant Zionist sector, and it's not as simple as just uh you know, like uh uh what's his name? Taffy asked on Matt Gasper's show, he was like, Do you think something like this could actually get the GOP to change tactics and maybe get the Zionists out of the GOP? And I'm like, absolutely not, like, there's no chance. You see everything they're doing, putting up these roadblocks to Tucker, to everything. Like, we are on a collision course right now, and I don't see anything changing.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah, to kind of get back to your uh original point of seeing everything as political, there was actually a very uh awesome tweet from classical theists that I remember. This must have been a year or two years ago, where he basically made the point that a lot of the weird conversion to something like Eastern Orthodoxy that goes on online amongst you know, chronically online people, it's because they view literally everything in life as subordinated to the political, their political ends, their personal political ends. So for them, you know, obviously I disagree with Pope Leo's practical judgments when it comes to immigration. Like I'm a hardcore immigration restrictionist. I believe this, okay. And there's a disagreement between Pope Leo and I, but when I'm thinking about, okay, what religion am I going to join? It's how am I going to honor God most? How do I love Jesus Christ most? How am I going to become most holy? Like, how am I going to get to heaven? You know, those are the thoughts that I have, not, you know, how am I going to kick out all of the brown people from my country? Like that's not even entering into the thought. Like, obviously, there are political implications to Catholicism, but you shouldn't make a primary question of what is most politically useful. And that's what a lot of these people are doing when it comes to how they're interpreting the situation between Pope Leo and Trump. They're like, Pope Leo is a liberal, he's uh you know a leftist, a progressive. It's like, dude, he's Pope. Like the Pope is the Pope for the entirety of the world. You you can't view the Pope as specifically always tied up with whatever's going on in the United States, you're just gonna ruin your soul that way.

SPEAKER_05 8:51

Yeah, if anybody, uh I jumped on with Matt Gaspers before the episode tonight. So if anybody wants to go check that out, I uh we had a good conversation. We went through all the latest, you know, Trump crash outs and some of the other stuff. But yeah, the this what I'm what I'm seeing is that MAGA Catholics, and I say that because these are people that are in a in a like in a cult of worship around Trump. What is coming down the pike, in my opinion, is the the the administration is going to start cracking down on the church in some shape or fashion. And if it's not the administration, it's going to be this Zionist segment of the Republican Party. So it may not be directly from the administration, but Trump is giving fuel to this segment that is very critical of what's going on right now. Rob, I put a tweet up, I just sent it into the telegram. Let's pop that up real quick. So there's this Zionist segment. You had Eric Mataxas, just had um uh what's his name? Uh the woke, the woke right guy, uh James Lindsay and Jeremy and John Zmirak on. Then you just had Jeremy Boring doing the same exact thing, and all of them are discussing Catholic integralism. Before Trump comes into office, you saw the FBI was was checking out traditional Catholic parishes, right? So you see uh Jeremy Boring, is there a plot to overturn the American founding? Uh McGill Patterson joins me to discuss Catholic integralism. These shows they're getting into not they're not even going after guys like Nick Fuentes, they're going after guys like Scott Hahn. Because they under they understand on a fundamental level that a Catholic sees the temporal subordinate to the spiritual. Like that's actually the proper way to view things, right? So they know that we're a problem because you you should view the temporal as subordinate to the spiritual, and we want to make laws that enact that and and play out into the public sphere.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yeah, there's a good point that somebody made, I can't remember who made this point, but basically that a lot of what we actually see with the mass conversions in America to Catholicism is that disproportionately, this is of the you know, the elite or like future elite kind of class, you know, people who are going to be in some sort of influential position. Uh, you know, when you're when you're looking at these sorts of environments, like when you go to DC, for example, and look at Republican staffers, you know, their rate of conversion is a lot more than if you go to New York City and you look at, you know, wherever Anthony lives, or if you look at, you know, the Jewish borough or whatever, wherever. Like you go to any of those areas, obviously, the there's a disproportionate relation between people in the reins of power, let's say. Um, maybe the New York Jews are in the reins of power, but you know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

And uh like all the iron miners up here in northern Minnesota, like there's not that many people.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're not seeing mass conversions amongst those sorts of people. So I think that this is actually uh a very calculated move when it comes to being very concerned as right-wing, you know, classical liberal individuals being very concerned with the future of Catholicism and how you know the intellectual leaders of Catholicism are speaking that influence, you know, these sort of staffers. I think that you know, they recognize that that has a lot more proximate effect than a sort of mass conversion on a grand scale does. You know, it's a lot more to convert 10% of the staffers in Washington than it is to convert 20% of the U.S. population, as counterintuitive as that sounds for a lot of people, you know, who have uh sort of drunk the propaganda of the way in which they think that democracy functions.

SPEAKER_05 12:42

Yeah. Well, we've seen, we've we're all watching like Catholicism and Catholics in very prominent positions in the culture right now, right? Like you're you're seeing the vice president is Catholic, and you're seeing uh all the biggest voices, especially the ones that are speaking out against Zionism, are Catholic, but then you have this concerted effort to present a uh a version of Catholicism that is orthodox in its in its theology, but is also palatable for um like I we've been calling it kosher Catholicism, right? So you have Matt Frad going over to the Daily Wire and you have Michael Knowles over there, and the problem is we're like the thing that you see with Trump today, those guys will criticize Trump for putting up the image of you know, the the blasphemous image of him act uh presenting himself as Jesus, and they but they'll they'll downplay the Trump and Leo thing going at each other, and then they'll also still give cover to an avenue where you can be Catholic and still give support to the state of Israel. And it's just this this branding that they're doing is very, very like thought out before like ahead of time and being presented to us.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree. I think that you know that's part of the concerted effort of any sort of action group. Uh you're you're not gonna only have you know the sort of behind the scenes. I I feel like a lot of people think that um, you know, social movements in uh in social media, you know, whoever's getting popular or whoever's getting funding, whoever's getting a lot of attention or clout, that that's very organic, kind of like you know, on on the Catholic sphere of like me or Anthony or you know, other YouTube channels gaining more or less popularity. This is a lot more organic. But in the political sphere, actually the game, the game is completely different. Like the meeting out of popularity, of funding, of support, that's actually very calculated. It's very systematic. So I it wouldn't surprise me if there was some sort of intentional uh move to try to, whether you know these individuals are complicit or not, like I don't think personally, I don't think Matt Frad is uh too complicit in it.

SPEAKER_06 15:00

No.

Why An American Pope Matters

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Um but whether somebody's complicit or not, like this it applies that you know, Ben Shapiro is probably thinking of the fact, or Jeremy Boring's thinking of the fact of oh, bringing on uh you know all of these Catholics on a daily wire that probably has a uh a good effect to you know bringing a form of kosher Catholicism to uh you know the people. I I I do not uh I do not doubt that at all.

SPEAKER_05 15:25

Yeah, I I'm seeing a bunch of the comments like look, why did the Pope feel the need to announce? Look, I'm not even going to um downplay. Yeah, it's from Rumble, but I'm not even gonna downplay the fact that there's a very high chance that Leo was elected as an American and made Pope to combat Trump. Like I like that's not a crazy thing to think. I'm not even saying that's not the case. He he probably was, they probably did elect an American as Pope to be the heel against Trump, but that's still irrelevant, right? It's I the what I'm seeing is guys who uh are choosing Trump over over their fellow Catholics. And what if there is some kind of effort to cast Catholics as enemies to America, which is what it looks like they're doing, they're trying to cast um Catholics, especially a very certain type of Catholic, as an enemy to America, and they're gonna try to make us an other so that it they they won't feel like I'm like we've seen this throughout history. How many times? You've seen it in every you know, during the Reformation where Protestants went after Catholics, like it feels like you've seen it in America throughout our history, yeah. And I it I can I feel like I'm the only one that really is looking down the road at what's going on here because there is this concerted effort to make Catholics the enemy right now. And when I see MAGA Catholics, whether they're Novus Ordo or Sede, I don't care what like where you land on it, you guys are going to help in the persecution of the church. You're gonna you're gonna be handing your fellow Catholics over to the Sanhedrin when this happens.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yeah, I think uh what you said about the election of Leo as an American being intentional. A lot of people in my live chat were uh kind of freaking out about that, like L take, you know, Anthony's crazy for this. But I actually don't think that's crazy at all. Uh when we look at St. John Paul II as a Polish Pope, uh a po first non-Italian pope since I think Adrian VI in the 16th century, you know, first non-Italian pope in centuries. The reason for choosing an Eastern European from behind the Iron Curtain was obviously quite intentional, uh, or at least it was providential for the destruction of communism. So is there sort of a uh a parallel choice when it comes to Pope Leo as a figure to counterbalance the American empire and the effect of America on the world stage, especially in light of you know Trumpism, which obviously I don't think there's a single cardinal who's a huge fan of Donald Trump. Maybe I don't think it's the craziest thing in the world. I don't think that's an insane thought at all. I think it's actually quite shocking that we got an American pope, and I don't think it was accidental, and I think that's probably one of the clearest, uh, I guess that would be one of the best guesses if I had to, you know, pull something out.

SPEAKER_05 18:30

Yeah, it was probably to combat Trump. It was also to combat the American media sphere, right? Because you remember what the American media sphere did under Francis, and it a lot of it had to do with language barrier and stuff like that. So, but who cares what the reason was that they get him in? So the way I'm looking at it is even if Leo was brought in to go against Trump, like yesterday they had Supic, uh McElroy, and it was like the McCarrick crew came out and went on 60 Minutes, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:01

Tobin. Tobin was the third.

SPEAKER_05 19:03

And who was the other one? Tobin. Tobin's the third. Yeah. So they come out and they're going on about how Trump's immigration policy and this and that. And it's like, we don't have to agree with that. Like, you don't it could be in God's providence that he put someone in that is anti-Trump for this very for for very different reasons than we'll need someone to be anti-Trump, right? Like, you don't have to dislike Trump for the same reasons those cardinals do, but it is good that there's an adversary to Trump because we're against what Trump's doing over in Iran, we're against what Trump's doing on several other things. So, in God's providence, who cares why these cardinals are against them? It's good that there's a heel to go up against Trump and to try to put a you know put some kind of a stop gap to the insanity that he's trying to pull a year.

Gaza Lebanon And National Judgment

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Yeah, I think um to uh to to borrow a point from uh a man that we always talk about, I feel like we always talk about when I'm on here, uh Nicholas J. Fuentes. Yeah, he makes the point that uh the reason why he desires the Democrats to win is as a stopgap to Trump. Not because he agrees more ideologically with the Democrats or anything like that, but simply for the reason that this will kind of kneecap him to have a Democratic majority in the last two years of his term and stop Trump from causing further damage in things like the Iran war. And you can agree or disagree with that logic or the prop or the uh conclusions to that uh point if you want to. You know, you don't have to vote Democrat uh to see the point in action. But I do think there is something to that when it comes to Pope Leo. There's obviously things that me personally, I would like Pope Leo to talk about more on the social action front and the Catholic social doctrine front. You know, if Pope Leo was going hard against uh, you know, a lot of different things that ought to be criminalized, or at least against the general principle, or or for rather, the general principle of the union between the church and the state and his own temporal authority in being able to, you know, pronounce on matters of morals in the political sphere. Like I would love him to talk about those things. He doesn't as much as I would like, sometimes here and there. But nevertheless, this is a it's a good thing. You know, it's a good thing that Pope Leo is out there rejecting the Iran war. It's good that he is talking about the genocide in Gaza or uh the affronts against the sovereignty of Lebanon. These are good things. The American Empire is doing very evil things or supporting very evil things. And I think a lot of people forget that there is a sort of social and political effect to national sin, uh, to the structures of sin that can often reign uh in our nations. So when the U.S. does objectively evil things, objectively bad things are going to Happen to the United States. Like this is a simple principle. You do bad things, you're going to often in this world receive bad punishments to those things. And do you want to be uh, you know, suffering the divine judgments for uh the sins of our empire? I I don't want to. So I think this is actually a very good thing that this is a stopgap to uh whatever Trump is trying to do in some form.

SPEAKER_05 22:24

It's not okay. So it's uh it's you're 100% right. Like there are the the our the this is actually what worries me about all of this is that there's judgment that's going to come upon our nation because we deserve it, right? We've had how many decades of abortion gone through? We've had uh even and and that's what's crazy to me. Like that you'll see the the MAGA Catholics going, well, Trump turned overturned Roe v. Wheat. First off, no, he didn't. He put a judge in, and the judges overturned it, and nothing has changed since. If anything, it's gotten worse. Trump's still funding Planned Parenthood, he's pushing for IVF, he's for gay marriage. Every single thing that you guys criticize the Democrats for, Trump is for. We've got nothing, nothing for him. And the thing is, what I think a like a bigger part of what Nick is saying is if you think back to when Biden was in, how many people were focused on how horrific the country of a direction the country was heading? Yeah. And when you have Trump in, the same exact things are happening, except the people that actually could put up a fight on this stuff are now like pacified. Yeah, they're satiated because they got their guy in, right? So now all of the things that are really going to bring judgment upon our nation, you have Catholics sitting there and defending Trump, even though he's doing the exact same thing. So Nick, Nick's kind of saying, look, if we get Democrats in, maybe we can refocus the movement and put it back because everything Trump said he was going to do, he he lied to us about. He didn't do any of the stuff he said he was going to do. I don't have Trump derangement syndrome, it's Trump disappointment syndrome. And then I'm now I'm just looking at it from a I mean, I see it in an eschatological eschatological sense at this point because as soon as I saw Trump get in and he didn't end the Ukraine war, I'm like, not only is he not going to end that Ukraine war, the whole world will be at war before the end of his presidency. So he goes and starts the Iran conflict, he gets a ceasefire signed, and Israel destroys the ceasefire because they can't let that ceasefire end, right? To Pope Leo's point, Pope Leo put out a tweet the other day talking about the Christian East that's being destroyed. He's, I mean, I want the guy to come out and condemn Israel's actions. Yeah. But he's he's being very vague about it. But he and he's talking about war as a business. He's talking about the industrial complex, the military-industrial complex. I want him to come out and condemn the actions of the Israeli government. He's not going to do that, but at least he's bringing light to the to the situation in Lebanon where the Christian East is being destroyed right now by Israel because they want to expand their borders.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that um for Trump, it's when you actually compare what he has done with what he has promised to do and the lengths in which he is willing to attempt either of those two things, it becomes quite stark. You know, it in order to satiate Israel's bloodlust and desire for regional domination. He's willing to literally move heaven and earth and sends, he's literally willing to dry out our munition stores. He's literally willing to move half of our Navy across, you know, halfway across the world. He's he's willing to do all of these different things to satiate the bloodlust of the wicked Zionists. But in order to defend America, what is what he is calling Pope Leo out for, you know, not he's not tough on crime, he's not tough on immigration. Really? Is Trump tough on crime? Is he actually tough on immigration? Or is all that he is doing is uh building up the passions, you know, he's building up the anger and the hate within the United States, especially towards right-wingers, where we could actually, you know, we could have a moral front when it comes to immigration and deportations. We can say, you know, we're gonna treat these people well, we're gonna treat them properly, we're gonna treat them with kindness and respect, but you know, we gotta enforce the law for the sake of our people, for the sake of our nation, for the sake of our future. And we have to be on our best behavior while we do it. You know, obviously accidents are gonna happen, obviously there's gonna be unintended consequences and miscalculations, but you know, we we just gotta do it. And we're gonna do it in a way that's going to cause the least amount of scandal against our position, right? And that's actually how Trump got the original, uh, the original coalition together, you know, in in 2024 or up to the 2024 election, rather. This is how he did it. He held to all of these different policy choices, but they were careful to state them in such ways that as not to offend the sensibilities of different people. But rather than that, he is not actually achieving the goals, and all these is all he is doing is just pissing people off towards these right-wing positions and possibly destroying them amongst you know your average American for quite a long time in the future. Uh, just like we saw with the invasion of Iraq and isolationism and you know the the pushback against George Bush and the blue wave uh that happens uh in 2000, I think it began in 2006. You know, just like we saw all of that, so also we're gonna see this snapback against a lot of things that you know we hold dear in our hearts. So it is it is like a historic lost opportunity, and not only the destruction of you know a lot of our moral consciousness, you know, as Catholics, but also the destruction of our political movement. So a lot of the people crying, oh, Trump derangement syndrome, Trump derangement syndrome, if you actually care about these issues, the person you would be most pissed off at in the entire world would be Trump for fumbling this and bringing bringing against us the wrath and hatred of a lot of those people who were, you know, more friendly towards us, would be more friendly towards us under other circumstances.

Principalities Powers And Nineveh Penance

SPEAKER_05 28:26

Yeah, I I am no longer see things through a political lens. I I see things through like I don't because a lot of people seem to think that um oh yeah, we gotta we can't forget our ad reads. A lot of people seem to to just view things through this political lens, and I'm looking at it our enemy is not are not the Democrats anymore. Like that that that that train sale that that is such a kayfabe fake thing that they've put in front of us to keep us at war with our fellow citizens. Don't get don't get me wrong. They are the enemy still. They are, but it's there, it's not because they're democrats, it's because they're seeds of the serpent. Yeah, right. So this has to be seen on an eternal like we are not up against democrats, we're up against principalities and powers. This is this is uh a cosmic war we're in right now. You're talking about the the the the actual the actual fight is between the mystical body of Christ and the mystical body of the devil. Now, the mystical body of the devil resides inside of the mystical body of Christ, partially, because there's plenty of baptized Catholics who are claiming the name Catholic, but are working against the the you know the working against the purposes of the church. So we're we're we're fighting a battle amongst people who are inside the church and outside the church, and we have to find a way to be bring a restoration of the church in the midst of this. Now, the only way to really do that is to have a Nineveh moment, which means we all don sackcloth and ash, beg God's mercy and and do penance. Like that's the only actual way to to to sway God's uh uh justice from us. Because, like you were saying, we uh our nation if God doesn't like what was it? Billy Graham said that, right? If he doesn't if he doesn't punish America, he owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology. It's a really good statement because the things that we do in the name of the American Empire, it's hard to not see the American Empire as the return of Babylon, like as the return of the Babylonian Empire, the the return of the Babylonian gods. You see, in every in every single uh facet of public life, they elevate the most debauched behavior because that is basically worship to these pagan gods, and Christ the king is relegated to your side chapel or to your to your local parish, but you can't bring them out into the public. And anybody who says Christ is king is accused of anti-Semitism.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Yeah, I think what's um I think what's I think lost on a lot of Americans, this is funnily enough, when you look at a lot of anti-American uh Iranian propaganda, the one thing that they point out about America, it's not, you know, sexual degeneracy, it's not, you know, immodesty, or it's not the fact that we are uh we're not Muslims or whatever. The one thing they point out about America and the American world system is pride. They say that the Americans are prideful and they try to recreate the entire world in our image. And we could talk about the historical precedents for this, especially during the Cold War and what happened in our fighting against world communism and the antecedents that happened in World War II in the pre-world uh pre-war period. We could talk about all that. But ultimately, what we need to remember is that a lot of empires who had a similar size relative to other nations and other regional powers, there have been many empires who have fallen quite quickly when they overextend their bounds. And I've seen a lot of people saying, oh, we could, we could never lose this war in Iran. We could, we could never, you know, fall from grace in this way. The world could never become bipolar uh rather than unipolar uh due to a loss in Iran. But I would say don't be so quick. You know, don't think that God can't do terrific judgments against us. And we we couldn't lose with even against an objectively um incorrect and objectively evil enemy, an inferior enemy.

SPEAKER_05 32:44

I mean, it's happened throughout history, right? Go back and and read the Old Testament. I mean, when God wants to bring judgment upon a nation, he brings judgment upon a nation. And not just that, we've opened the borders to the enemy to come inside the nation. It doesn't even have to be from a foreign army, it could be from within our own borders, from the people we've let in because we've stopped serving Christ as king, and now we've let these foreign gods come into our own country.

Immigration Crisis And Bishop Failures

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think that the um not obviously not precluding action. Uh, action is a responsibility of all Catholics to bring about the social kingship of Christ. But I do see something like the immigration crisis and a lot of the impotence of a uniquely, uniquely there's an impetus of the uh American hierarchy when it comes impotence rather of the American hierarchy when it comes to the immigration crisis. When you look at certain European nations, they there will be uh bishops or cardinals here or there, or even episcopal conferences, local episcopal conferences or national rather, here and there that are a little bit better on the immigration issue and will be more in line with you know restrictionist policies on it. But the UFCCB is uniquely bad on this issue. Like the American church has in a unique way stood down when it comes to the immigration issue, uh, which could be a moral force for actually, you know, having sway with the people who want to immigrate and with a lot of the American Catholics who are in positions of power. The the church could actually provide a great impetus against uh mass immigration. Like this is something that the church could do. And she has specifically chosen not to do that in in the United States. And I think this is a great failure of the hierarchy in the United States. But I do see that you know, this impotence of the church and also the flooding of immigrants, this is very clearly a divine judgment against our people. Like hordes of foreigners coming in and overtaking our culture, our nation, our safety, our social resources that we have built up in such an excellent way to be the most wealthy and the greatest nation in the history of the world, maybe not morally greatest, but certainly when it comes to material means, the greatest in the history of the world. And I would say that, you know, technology and culture and all of these different things, America has reigned and that it was an excellent nation, and that we are being judged, you know, specifically for the sin of pride, which interestingly, when you look at Donald Trump, he is the embodiment of American pride and of the refusal to humility and of dialogue and of you know concern for others. He is the embodiment of American pride, and I think that it's a a bit of divine irony that he will be the one to ultimately fail to uh push back this divine judgment and you know ruin for the remainder of our people's history the ability to push back this divine judgment.

SPEAKER_05 35:47

It's like um man, these bishops, they uh the American bishops specifically, they're just the it's a pseudo-messianism that they that they push. It's um it's presenting uh uh uh like a false version of Christianity that there's there's um you you just need to love your neighbor. It's just the easiest way to go to make it appear like Christianity, but it's it's it's really vulgar because what they're doing is opening up the borders and putting your children in situations where they're no longer surrounded by Catholic communities anymore. Now they don't, you know, there's all these other religions around them. It makes it harder for your kids to even believe the faith because they're looking around and they're going, oh, well, how who's to say we're right when this one believes this and this person believes that? It's such a a way to destroy Christendom from within that any any remnants of a Christian nation that we once had is now gone because we allowed the floodgates to come in. And uh yeah, it's it's it really is sad.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Yeah, I have a little bit more um hope. Maybe I was a little bit doomer when I said that you know, the there's really no hope for us. I do think for the for the majority of America, uh, there is you know hope. I think there are future strategies for certain parts of America to recover from the effects of this chastisement against us. But I do actually have a lot of hope when it comes to uh future seminary uh seminarians, future priests. I I do have you know, I talk with a lot of these guys uh every day, you know, people who are young priests or seminarians or future seminarians. And it seems like 90, 95%, a lot of them are really great. A lot of them are really on the ball theologically, uh socially, pastorally. So I I do see the the seeds are planted for a sort of return uh revival of uh Catholicism around the world and specifically in America. And but I guess to be a better way of putting it, but there is a long time for that.

Sponsors Plus A Donation Request

SPEAKER_05 37:54

Let's let's get to that because I think the only way After Ed Reads. After Ed Reads. So actually 100%, because our new sponsor, Black Monk Rosaries, I've been waiting so long to get them on as a sponsor. We've been trying to coordinate with these guys for so long, begging them to come on because we only like to promote products that we actually love. Black Monk Rosaries. If you don't have a Black Monk Rosary, you guys have no idea what you're in store for. These things weigh like nine pounds, they're so much better than any rosary I've ever had. They uh I've had the Father Heilman rosary, like the the military, uh, you know, the World War I dog tags ones. Those I bring them to work, they break all the time. These are out of control how good these things are. Look at look at the Crusader one. It's got the Crusader helmet on it. They uh that we love Black Monk Rosaries. You guys can get 10% off an amazing Black Monk Rosary by going to black monkrosary.com. Use code AvoidingBabylon, uh, and you'll get 10% off. We really want to push this one, guys. We we had our last stream and it never went up on YouTube. And just from going on our local segment, we we we were able to sell a bunch of them. But I'm gonna pull the Taylor Marshall and say if you don't have a black monk rosary, you're not on the team. Like girl, If you don't have a black monk rosary, you're not on the team. So and you're gonna we're gonna need a lot of rosaries going forward, especially uh we're gonna need a lot of rosaries and a lot of knick-knacks because the conversation I'm about to get into is gonna be very heavy. And I want to see because Christian, you'd made some comments recently, and me and you disagree on some things, so but knick knack.com, uh knick knacks are the only Catholic nicotine product on the market. Catholic family that decided they wanted to sponsor us, they are the best. Uh, I'm pretty sure if you buy from them, there's some kind of indulgence attached. I don't know exactly how that works. I think if you buy the the the the the knick-knack lozenges and you put one in your mouth and you visit um a Saint Francis monastery, a Franciscan monastery, you'll get a plenary indulgence, right?

SPEAKER_04 40:07

Isn't it the year of Saint Francis? I think it's the year of Saint Francis, right?

SPEAKER_05 40:11

If you visit a monastery and buy, well, anyway, so you're a headache, is what it is. Knickknacks are a nicotine product, and nicotine is an addictive substance. And uh you cannot use it. Yeah, nicotine is a good idea. But why else would you buy it if you didn't want to be addicted to nicotine? So go buy some knick-knacks, use code AB25% for 25% off your first purchase. We love knick knacks, but all right, so to get on, oh hold on.

SPEAKER_03 40:38

Um, my wife has a friend uh who the um young Catholic couple up in Canada. The husband just moved there from the US. You have to get a work permit before you're allowed to get a job in Canada if you're from the US, apparently. So he's been out of work. Um, so they uh they're having stro uh struggles with rent. So I'm gonna put a link in the description as well as in the live chat. If anyone is feeling generous, if you can head there and possibly donate, that would be greatly appreciated.

SPEAKER_05 41:05

Yeah, send me that link personally, Rob. I'll donate to that. We'll do our poor Americans stranded in Canada. We must rescue our American American patriots, expats. Um, all right, so yeah, let's get into this a little bit because you are very hopeful. Yes, and I am too, but my hope lies in that the only way through this thing that we're we're going through is Calvary. Like, I don't see us getting through this debacle that we're in between the Trump situation, uh, the situation in the church. I mean the church crisis, I don't, you know, I I know you and I probably di differ on a a few things here, but even Fuentes, Rob, did I send that to the thing? Like, you want to play the clip of Fuentes real quick that I just sent? Sure. Uh this is this is Fuentes talking about no shirtate. Did I send it?

SPEAKER_03 42:01

No.

SPEAKER_05 42:02

Okay, hold on, let me send it right now. Uh send it right now. Like this is this is and people were accusing him of like even E. Michael Jones came out and told him he was schismatic for saying this. But I think this is just comedy.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Michael Jones is a little bit unfortunately. I think he's a little bit senile right now. I um he's uh he's done a lot for the church, a lot for uh America. He's a patriot, good Catholic, but you know, it's he he's just so just so attached to this one issue. I remember I actually uh I went to South Bend one time and I was able to get breakfast with him. And just the entire time we I would have loved to talk to him about, you know, he has a book on Iran. I would have loved to talk to him about that. I'm very interested in, you know, Middle East, North Africa, uh Muslim countries, per like I'm interested in all that stuff. I would have loved to talk to him about in his experiences, but just the whole time or anything else theological, but the whole time he was just talking about, you know, Nick Fuentes, Nick Fuentes, Nick Fuentes. Oh, really? It was like an hour. And finally, I you know, I just got up and left and drove home. I'm like, I'm just I'm there, there's no point in me staying here, you know, two, three hours. You know, when I talk to some people like that, I literally would just never leave. I would stay till midnight if I could. Yeah, but with him, it was just such a terrible experience.

SPEAKER_05 43:26

He's got a lot of good thoughts, man. He's had a lot of good books. I mean, the Jewish revolutionary spirit, the logos rising, all good books. But let's let's let's pop Nick on. There's no, I don't think, I don't think there's any vulgarity in this.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

I love it when you don't check.

SPEAKER_05 43:40

I I mean I did listen to it originally, but you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

What is your take on Nostra? You take I am a Catholic, but I do not agree with that. Yeah, I uh find it to be a bit problematic. Ever since they released Nostra Tate, I believe they've put out they put something out like every decade since, correcting it. Yeah. Nostratate, and then 10 years later they like revisited it, revisited it, revisited it, and then 10 years later they did it again, and then 10 years later they did it again. If you look at the history on this, they they have to basically keep circling back and revising it because the way that it's written, it does sound like perennialism, which is this idea that there's an esoteric truth uh behind all world religions. So that means that all the world religions are are basically just a cultural expression of the same thing. Because what Nostratate says is it takes all the different world religions and says, um, that's you can kill it.

Calvary Martyrdom And Church Renewal

SPEAKER_05 44:46

I just wanted to just go like he was just critical of Nostra Tate. Now, I I think Nostra Tate is the culmination of a bunch of naive men who came out of World War II feeling horrible about, you know, they they have the Holocaust narrative put on them, and they have the privilege of being in a Christian culture and thinking all people are just good. We can just dialogue with everybody and we could just be nice to them. But I think the the effects of this have become bringing it's basically ended the the um the Great Commission on part of the church. And instead of going and uh trying to conquer the pagan gods and slay slay the idols, we've brought them into the Vatican and we're now saying we can just dialogue with you guys for the sake of dialogue. I don't think it's heretical, I think it's naive, and I think these men that came out of that um out of out of that propagandized age just don't seem to grasp how how you just can't have peace outside of Jesus Christ. You see, Pope Leo, Pope Leo going today and going to a mosque and talking about dialogue. I just think these men are very naive. And the consequences are going to be in order for us to get through this, there's going to be a walk on Calvary. Like we're gonna have to walk the Via Dola Rosa and we're going to have to suffer before there can be any kind of resurrection of the church to its former glory. Like we're not going to be able to just, oh, we got some good priests uh up and coming and stuff. I think there's going to be some real persecution coming. And I think the only way that you see the church reborn is through the blood of the martyrs.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Yeah, this is why, you know, when I look at uh nostra tate, I I'm struck with the fact, and this is something my friend Hassan brings up, that for the interpretation of Nostratate, uh Nick mentioned the clarifications that come from the Vatican, and of course those are good. But you really need to read Nostratate in light of the documents on evangelization uh from Vatican II, from St. Paul VI, and from St. John Paul II. And uh ultimately Dominus is a very good document. When you read in light of that, you're able to understand, okay, this is actually, it's not, you know, perennialism. And Nick, I think, caught himself and said, you know, I'm not saying that it is perennialism, but it just sounds like that to a lot of people. It seems like that to a lot of people, which I get, you know, I get that it seems like that to a lot of people. But when you read the clarifications uh that come from, you know, the church and the documents on evangelization, it says, okay, well, you know, we have these, you know, elements that are you know present in all of these religions. We can actually use them for the purposes of evangelization, which I think everybody in the history of evangelization would agree with. You know, that that's obviously something that you need to uh do in order to effectively evangelize people. But I do see you know a lack of balance, I guess would be the best way of putting it when it comes to a lot of clerics and the hierarchy uh after the Second Vatican Council, is that when you look at the documents of Vatican II, you you there are many good practical uh resolutions there of what the church should do. And we're not gonna focus on those. We're not gonna focus on how this could be used in evangelization, the necessity and the primacy of evangelization, the insufficiency, the utter insufficiency that St. Paul VI talks about of non-Christian religions for salvation. We're not gonna talk about all of those things over there. We're rather going to kind of selectively pick out, you know, whatever is most palatable to a non-Catholic audience, uh, basically in order to complement them and to make them feel better and to have a very surface level relationship with these people. So yeah, I think that the it's definitely a a good take, I would say to summarize a good take.

SPEAKER_05 48:48

I I think that the the the take of these bishops that are doing the exact thing you're talking about, though, what it's going to lead to is they're going to see how naive they were. Because what happened was by putting that document out, it almost gave it was like the it was like the world was waiting for the church to give its okay on something like that, and then religious freedom, and then the the the Western world opens its borders to these foreign religions, they come in and these men are so naive to think, oh, we could just dialogue with everybody, but they're they're mistaking that only the we have that privilege of thinking that because we're Christian and we grew up in Christian lands, but these people that are coming in are not from Christian lands, and there's going to be a reckoning from us not guarding what was precious to us, which was a Christian civilization. Like once you don't guard what is precious, it gets taken away from you. And I think that uh what they did, uh this has nothing to do with heresy or thinking the church, it's just it was just a naive group of men from that generation, they let their guard down. And I think that we're our generation and the ones beneath us are the ones that are going to wind up paying the price for it. And I think that the church will be reborn, but it's going to be very difficult, and there's going to be martyrdom on the on the road to get there. And I think that martyrdom will convert all the peoples that came into these lands.

Eschatology Tease And Move To Locals

SPEAKER_01 50:15

Yeah, there's the the myth of infinite progress that was pretty popular amongst Europeans of that time of basically, you know, there was this idea that we could, you know, forever and ever and ever sort of get better and better and better. And there's sort of the we'll lose the the limits of of our humanity. You know, now it's in the form of transhumanism and ideas like this. But there was a sort of um friendliness to the world that was present amongst a lot of these bishops, and they did imbibe some of this myth, uh, in my opinion, in the practical way in which they went about uh, you know, ruling the church. And I think what was ultimately realized by somebody like St. Paul VI, which I think he's the by far the greatest of the post-conciliar popes, I love St. Paul the Sixth. I think he was uh personal friends with venerable, his personal friends with Venerable Pius the XII. And uh he is you know unique in the fact that he will talk about a lot of traditional doctrines of the church that aren't as spoken of as much by other post-conciliar popes. And what was recognized is you know, St. Paul VI, he actually, I don't think a lot of people recognize this, he actually fasted to death, basically, um, near the end of his life in looking at around him the state of the church, especially the state of the liturgy. And uh, you know, that this is recognized by some clerics, is just how bad, you know, things things got from the pre-conciliar era. But once you, you know, once you let the once you kind of let the dragon in, it's too late. You know, there's you can't control it without a sort of Gestapo-like control over the seminaries and the universities and you know, over the the different dioceses and the episcopal conferences, and that just wasn't seen as being you know realistic.

SPEAKER_05 52:16

Yeah. Um, all right. I what I what I think what we should do is I do want to talk to you about eschatology. Yeah. Um, because you put out that video the other day, but I think we should do that over on locals because uh I wanna I want to poke at some of the things you said in your video the other day.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

Unfortunately, I'm gonna I I have to go soon. How how much time you got left? Uh 10 minutes. That's all you got? Yeah. I got some friends coming out over.

SPEAKER_05 52:47

All right, maybe we'll do that another night. All right, me and Rob will jump over to locals and uh and we'll let you go. But yeah, I don't know, man. I think uh I think the stuff with with Trump is I I hope that I hope that Catholics can differentiate between the political and the religious because I think everybody's gotta stop viewing things through such a political lens and seeing Leo, you know. I I think in God's providence, he may have given us a pope that is gonna going to push back on Trump and some of this insanity that we're gonna see.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Yeah, I I absolutely agree. I um yeah, I think I think we kind of put everything out there except the eschatological stuff.

SPEAKER_05 53:33

Although that's that's a that's that's a good 40-minute conversation because I I definitely disagree with you on that one.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

Yeah, I know it's it's for me, you know. I guess if anybody wants to watch the video, you can just watch the video that I produced. I think it was last week uh that I did it. But basically for me, I I think that there are uh you know, understanding that when it comes to eschatology, like the signs that we are given, they have so frequently throughout the history of the church been been claimed and rescinded. And intrinsically it's so hard to recognize when these things are versus when they're not. So I'm not entirely closed to the possibility of, you know, maybe I'm just misunderstanding the data, maybe I'm wrong, maybe, you know, actually we are in this uh apocalyptic time. But I do think that you know, from my right reading of scripture and tradition, that there needs to be certain conditions met, especially around the conversion of the nations of the world that haven't been met yet. So I guess to give like a minute-long summary. So I don't actually think Trump's antichrist, although I'm open to it.

SPEAKER_05 54:36

Yeah, I don't even necessarily think he is either. I think he might be some type of forerunner or um you know, a type. At least that he's a type of antichrist for sure, at minimum. Um, but he may be like the chaos agent that comes in and then the antichrist comes in promising peace after and then something like that. But I I definitely think we're way further along the line than you do. But yeah, I don't know. That's a that's a full conversation because I think you were you were focusing a lot on Old Testament scripture and things like that. And uh yeah, I don't I don't, you know, especially conversations Rob and I have had about the conversion of the Gentiles and and the fullness, you know, getting into Romans 9 through 11. But I got some stuff me and Rob can do over on locals. We'll do that another night, and uh yeah, we'll go from there. So um you if you're well, you're gonna do something with Josh towards the end of the month, but I don't know. I'd like I'd like to jump in on one of those conversations.

SPEAKER_01 55:31

Yeah, Joshua Charles and Gideon Lazar and I will be doing a little bit of an eschatology conversation. I'm supposed to uh I have a few speeches this next week, so I'll be out of town. Um so I I will not, I'll I won't be here for like a week, and then after that, I think we're doing the conversation. So there will be a content drought for a lot of my listeners right now, but we'll get right back into it. Yeah, we're supposed to have that discussion. I'd love to come on again and uh you know discuss the topic further.

SPEAKER_03 56:06

Anthony, maybe if you did stuff like give speeches, Joshua would invite you on for stuff.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Yeah, maybe I doubt it. Dude, Josh, Joshua, that's a hard, it's a hard get. Joshua's like, I've never been invited on before.

SPEAKER_05 56:20

Uh so that this is I'm thinking about not bringing him back on here until I get the invited. Because I'm tired of like plugging his stuff and him him thinking I'm not learned enough for his channel. I'm not a scholar.

SPEAKER_01 56:35

I guess I'm I'm not a scholar either. We're we're down here, we're down here in the trenches, Anthony.

SPEAKER_05 56:40

Yeah, he's not he he wants scholars on his show. So no, we love Josh. But uh, all right, Christian, we'll let you go, man. It was nice talking with you, brother.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

Okay, absolutely. God bless.

SPEAKER_05 56:50

All right, take us out, Rob.

SPEAKER_03 56:52

Yeah, I'm just gonna kill the streams.

SPEAKER_05 56:54

Well, yeah, if anybody wants to join us over on locals, we're gonna go do some fun stuff on locals.

SPEAKER_03 57:01

Okay, Facebook gone, Twitter gone, Rumble gone. Man, Rumble's a dumpster fire when we talk about politics, isn't it? And YouTube is going now. Everyone head over to locals. Um, so