SSPX Drama Continues: Sede Inc. Comes After Avoiding Babylon

A single letter from Rome can change the whole temperature of the Catholic internet, and this one hits like a brick: Pope Leo pleads with the SSPX to “please turn back,” warns of a “schismatic act,” and points to the seamless garment of Christ. We slow the conversation down and read the letters themselves, because the hot takes are cheap and the stakes are not. If you care about the Society of St Pius X, the consecration of bishops, faculties, and what “unity” actually means in the middle of a Church crisis, you need the primary sources, not the caricatures.

We also address the side drama that keeps poisoning the well: critics who misframe what we say, the temptation to turn every disagreement into a bad faith accusation, and the constant pressure to jump from “there’s a crisis” straight to sedevacantism. We explain why we won’t take the “no valid pope since 1958” route, why we think that conclusion creates a bigger ecclesiology problem, and why people owe their audience clarity if they’re going to flirt with sedevacantist arguments while denying the label.

Then we get practical and painfully real about liturgy. We play a Bishop Williamson clip that cuts through slogans: the Novus Ordo Mass is not automatically invalid by its text, but it can still be spiritually dangerous in how it forms people, especially children, through irreverence and confusion. We talk about why so many cradle Catholics only found their faith by discovering the Traditional Latin Mass, and why this whole conflict should break your heart instead of feeding your ego. Subscribe, share this with a friend who’s caught in the crossfire, and leave a review with your take: what do you think Rome and the SSPX should do next?

Transcript

Cold Open And Tradland Drama

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Answer the questions. Answer the questions. Answer the questions. Answer the questions. Answer the questions. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

That was funny. I'm sorry, Steve, if we had to do it. I'm not. Oh, the drama in Tradland. It's too fun. I don't know. You you you kind of hate this stuff, right? I think it's amazing. I'm having I it's like nostalgic for me. It's like everybody's fighting again. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

It just is a bunch of people who think they matter more than they really do.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

It's all it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Oh, but we do too.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

We all think we matter, none of us do. I don't. Honestly, it's um I all right. So we did the last show, and um Chris Jackson keeps picking fights with me, man.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

First off, I don't know why he let's not pretend that's his name.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

I mean, it's clearly not his name, but I don't even know his real name. So but he keeps picking fights and he misframes everything I say. He gets us into a into a battle with oh, you mean as a bad faith actor? No way, bad faith actor. Then he he gets us into a thing with Janet Smith. Janet Smith, man. I met Janet Smith a few months ago. I met her twice. I met her at the Catholic um at the canceled priest conference, and then I met her in Florida a few months ago. She was a lovely woman, like we had a really good time together. She thought I was wonderful. She talked you thought she was never mind. She was she was a wonderful woman. Me and her talked for hours, everything was lovely. And then she goes and throws up on Facebook that she thinks Chris Jackson's article is excellent. And it's like, no, Chris Jackson's article is not excellent.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

It's nothing about a boomer couldn't detect AI slop. No. That's a boomer fell for AI.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

No. Because the thing is, I'm pretty sure most of Chris Jackson's writings are AI. I mean, it does. Every time you put those things through an AI detector, it comes back as like 98%, 95% AI with some human, you know, mixed up. It just reads like slop too. Like you just get that sense that. I mean, we'll we'll go through that article tonight, but I also want to go through um because I I watched Anthony Stein this morning and he was reading Leo's response to the SSPX, and he kind of cringed in uh when Leo talked about the seamless garment being torn. But I think Leo actually used the proper context.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

He's not using it in like the Bernadine Bernadine way, no.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Right. So like the the Bernadine uh context for seamless garment is like, oh well, abortion and death penalty and all this stuff is one seamless thing. So if you you know you you got you you have to be against abortion, but you also have to be against the death penalty, and that was how that was used. But I think Leo is actually using it in the proper context in terms of schism. Like if the and I'm not even saying that's what's happening here, but that's the proper term.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Like you're if you're if you're you're seamless garment being the unity of the church, the unity of the church, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:34

So the the the seamless garment comes from Caiaphas, and I believe it's John's gospel. Caiaphas tears his garment, and that signifies the end of his high priesthood. And then John makes a point to point out uh that Christ they cast lots for his seamless garment that was not torn, because Christ's priesthood is now now uh you know active or whatever you would say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, right, right. So but it's also to show the division with those who accept Christ and those who don't. So it really does have a lot to do with that. There's a lot going on there because you also in that uh story you have Malchus is uh Caiaphas's servant, right? So, like, so uh they it it's like I forgot which gospel it's in, but it points out that Malchus is the high priest's servant, and uh Jesus is high, Jesus is the new high priest, and his servant Peter cuts off Malchus's ear. So it's like this whole play of showing the old high priest tears his garment and his servant comes out to get the new high priest, and and the new high priest's servant attacks him and cuts his ear, and then Jesus says, Peter, those who live by the sword die by the sword, and Jesus heals Malchus's ear and stuff. So there's a lot going on there, but I do believe that is the proper context for using that seamless garment analogy, even as even to the point where Pagliorani returned it and and spoke of it in the same way. So in Leo's letter, he mentions it, and then in Pagliorani's letter, he responds and uses the same analogy. So I know a lot of people might have just like heard that phrase, and because over the years we've talked about that phrase so much that they probably you know rolled their which Anthony Stein rolled his eyes this morning when he was reading about the seamless garment. But I I don't think it was an improper.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

I don't think his eyes do anything besides roll, to be honest. You need to be nice. Why? Why is it I why is it we always need to be the nice ones?

SPEAKER_02 6:37

You need to be nice. Uber Karen Janet

Knick Knack Marriage Success Story

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Smith can say what she's she wants, but I have to deliver it's an excellent. Oh man, we're gonna have to do the Janet Smith stuff. But but listen, before any of that, I we have the most amazing Knick-Knack success story tonight. It's actually an update to one of the first Knick-Knack success stories. The first Knick-Knack success story I told you guys about this loser incel named Bobby, who I met in Italy and couldn't find a girlfriend. Well, Bobby just proposed to my sister on Friday. Gave this kid a pack of knick-knacks, and he proposed to my sister this Friday. So they met in January, four months of courtship, and they're engaged, and they're probably gonna get this wedding done before November or in November. We are looking at record time. Yeah, I think so because they want to be married when we go to Italy, and uh, but it's just interesting to think like you never know what God has in store for your life, you know. Uh, Bobby came to Italy in 2024 with me at the end of 2024. We met, became like instant friends there. Got home. I invited him to a couple of family things, and then he met my sister this past January. And uh, yeah, man, it's just if they're not married when they go, one of the two of them is gonna be sleeping on your floor in the hotel. Well, no, it was gonna be Bobby was gonna stay with my son and my sister. We were gonna have to find a bunk partner for her. So we were so we went out with them on Saturday, and uh, they were just like, we were trying to figure this all out. And they're like, I think we're gonna have to do yeah, I'm not happy about this. Listen, there's a lot that goes into this. You guys don't even know. They're trying to make me go to the wedding at an Eastern liturgy. I'm furious about it. I don't even know. I might I may boycott the wedding. I don't know what I'm going to do.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Or Ant's gonna go and pull uh a Tolkien, but just with how he very to all the Latin respect.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

Very largely the right side of the cross. Well, either way, go to knick knack. I don't know how this has anything to do with knick knacks. Go to knicknack.com, use code AB25% if you guys want to find yourself a wife. Uh 25% of your first purchase.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

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SPEAKER_02 9:07

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SPEAKER_01 9:14

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SPEAKER_02 9:21

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SPEAKER_01 9:27

And when all hope is lost, don't throw these rosaries though, they will kill someone. No, they will kill someone for sure.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Go to Black Monk Rosary, use code Avoiding Babble on a checkout, and you'll get 10% off those. Black Monk Rosaries are serious weaponry, they are no joke. So if the knick knacks fail, you go right to the Black Monk Rosary. Guarantee, look, our sponsors are setting up marriages, saving lives out here. So that's all I know. All right, let's get to it.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

We got something you

GoFundMe For A Friend’s Loss

SPEAKER_02 9:55

oh, we have something else too. Um, Paul Pereira is uh like an OG to the show. Like, I'm talking very, very long time, long time friend of the show. His uh wife gave birth, uh, and the baby only lived about six days. Yeah, his son Xavier only lived about six days, and um, they do have to cover funeral expenses and a lot of medical bills. So if you guys are so inclined, Paul is an amazing guy. We met him in person. He came to Rob's uh son's baptism and we met him in person. Paul is uh he's a really good guy. If you guys can help out, that's Rob Linked's GoFundMe. Uh it's a really hard time his family's going through right now. So we love you, Paul.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

I'll put it right now. It's in the live chat, but I'll put it in the description at the end of the show.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Yeah, if you can. We uh yeah, we gotta gotta show Paul some love, longtime uh friend of the show. So um, what do we want

Chris Jackson Article And Misframing

SPEAKER_02 10:55

to start with? Do we want to do we want to start with the Janet Smith Chris Jackson drama? I guess we should, right? And then we'll get into the Leo responses and stuff. And then tonight on locals, Rob and I have been uh wanting to have this conversation for a while. We want to talk. I mean, you had the birthright citizenship thing happen today. Rob and I both think uh civil unrest is on the way. I want to I want to get Rob's opinion on just maybe I want to I want to talk a little bit about how we're being manipulated, and I also have some thoughts on like world events right now, how things are going and stuff. So we're gonna we're gonna probably just talk, you know, civil conflict at home, world events, and my crashing might be crashing her car.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Three-minute anime style taffy video that I cannot play on YouTube because of the content. Okay and Anthony is gonna hate it, absolutely hate it, just despise it.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

They don't even send me the intro videos ahead of time anymore.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

No, no. Matter of fact, uh, Taffy sent this to me, and he's like, definitely don't send this to Ant, but you might not want to watch it beforehand either. I'm like, I gotta watch it beforehand.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Yeah, you have to screen these videos ahead of time. There's no way, all right. So we'll play that over on locals, also. Um, all right, so let's do Chris Jackson's article and let's just show how he is a bad faith actor and doesn't actually um doesn't even um properly like explain what we said in our show last episode or anything, and how he's drumming up. Look, my my my my position is this they will say things like Rob and I are avoiding the question, which um I don't know what the question is that we're avoiding, but also um they're the ones avoiding the question. Um they all want to play footsie with the sede vacantists and then say they're not sedevacantes, and that is uh strange to me because uh they talk like sedeys, they push the sede vacantist position, and then they go, Well, we're not sedeys though, we're not sedeys though. And that's kind of the the the point uh Matt makes to Stephen Cox is that Steven is acting like he's just asking, he's just having the important conversations that Trad Inc. is afraid to have. I don't think anybody's afraid to have these conversations.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

I think that we're coming to different conclusions, so and it's also the only conversation he's had now since he started his thing after getting fired from life's like it's the same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Um I I want to find um Steven's tweet real quick. So um hang on, I'm sorry, guys. Just give me a sec. Um okay, so uh Glad at his public record, Matt thinks two archmodernists are saints. I wonder why he prays to them, what he prays to them for, or maybe he doesn't. That would be odd. Uh wait, no, that's the wrong one. Wait, there's a different one. I'm sorry, guys. Bear with me. Um he said he's he made one about how Catholic Inc is or Trad Inc. is okay. Integrity is having conversations on topics that Matt Michael Matt, Taylor Marshall, Matt Gaspers, and the rest of the echo chamber of indult, FSSP, and conservative novus ordo influencers refuse to have for years. They are triggered by mere dialogue. Meanwhile, integrity contributors are are uh all having public conversations about this stuff. Uh have all publicly said they are not triggers. Matt Gaspers is angry. Some people are willing to work together on an array of issues without imposing a litmus test. Okay, so um I I am friends with Steven, um, but I think that's I yeah, Rob's not, but I am.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Um in case I wasn't abundantly clear to everybody.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

I uh I don't I don't see it that way. It's funny how the misframing goes. Like, I don't think anybody's afraid to have these conversations. I think these conversations were had for years. I think uh, well, for me, I can tell you for me personally, I'm not gonna put words in anybody else's mouth, but for me personally, I we did have these conversations for years, and the conclusion I came to was I'm not a set of a contest, like I don't see how that formula works. So the the point that like they're that they think that they're having these difficult conversations, I don't I don't think they are. It's not like it we all see that there's a crisis. So for Chris Jackson in this article is going to act like I don't think there's a crisis. We all know there's a crisis.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Yeah, even when we talk about the encyclicals or something, we are very clear.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

The entire thing is that my uh my my my thesis is that I agree with the Ticonius thesis, right? So my position is the mystery of iniquity is that the mystery of evil grows inside the body of the Lord, it's the body of the Lord and the body of Christ within one entity, which is this structure of the visible church on earth, and the body of the devil is growing stronger, and that is the mystery of iniquity. It lines up with the catechism in paragraph 675, it lines up with everything we're seeing right now. So that's just the position I take. So when I say I'm not scandalized by the things in Rome, it's because I expect them to get severely worse. I don't say there's no crisis, I don't think we have a great hierarchy right now. I understand the situation, I'm not coming to the same conclusions as you guys. I don't think Leo is an anti-pope. You guys do. That's a different position, that's not avoiding the question. So, okay, so the title screen says they're not willing to say that they believe Leo is an anti. That's my point. They avoid the question because they'll say they're not set as, but the reason they won't say they're set as because everybody knows once you say that you're a Sete, you get written off because everybody knows SETIs are crackpots, they're just nuts, like these people are nuts, and that's something I will willingly say constantly. So uh, title screen says Catholics lose their minds over the SSPX consecrations. Uh, that is already the tell. The frame is psychological. Catholics are losing their minds, people are freaking out. SEDs are being crazy, online trads are causing drama, everybody needs to calm down. Never said any of those things except sedes are being crazy. Then the conversation begins, and the two hosts accidentally say half the things that need to be said. We don't accidentally say anything, except the occasional N-word slips out. Joking. Only on locals. That's only on locals, the joke. Um uh no, like, no, we're not accidentally saying anything, Chris. This is a preposterous thesis you're coming up with. They admit the SSPX profession of faith reads like Catholic doctrine. Yes. Why wouldn't we? Like they admit that modern errors have penetrated the life of the church under the influence of Vatican II and the post-conciliar reforms. Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

I would say the I would say though it happened sort of happened way before that.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Right. That's kind of what we've really been discovering, is that these errors started way before the council. They just had their coming out party at the council. They admit that false ecumenism, liberalism, synodality, liturgical uh anthropocentrism, and interreligious fraternity are all attacks on Catholic order. They admit that Rome, or at least the hierarchy, hates tradition. They admit that the faithful at SSPX chapels are often simply Catholics trying to be Catholic. They admit that the FSSP and ICK live under a sword hanging over their heads because the local bishop can't take

Sedevacantism Pressure And Clarity Test

SPEAKER_02 18:30

away that can take away their mass at any time. Then they refuse the conclusion. That is the whole show. What conclusion? What conclusion? What conclusion am I avoiding? I don't understand. What conclusion? What conclusion are you coming to? Are you saying that none of the post-conciliar popes are valid? Is that the conclusion? Because that sounds an awful lot like Cedivacontism, Chris. And then Stephen Cox is saying that you have said you're not a Cedivocantist. Sounds like you're refusing the conclusion. That is the whole show. Avoiding Babylon sees Babylon, names Babylon, sells merch against Babylon. We really don't sell much merch. You know what?

SPEAKER_01 19:08

That's what you guys are very literally just happening right now. And Anthony, Anthony's probably upset about that. Do you see what's behind my head, Rob? Well, uh, yes, I do. And I got same guy sent me this.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

That's pretty awesome. So uh listener Brock, I won't say his last name because I don't want to blow the spot.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Um probably say it on locals, I guarantee you watch.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Made me this awesome wood sign that says, Have you accepted Mary as your personal mother and intercessor? I'm like beyond grateful, Brock. Thank you very much. So uh, but we really don't sell much merch. But if you guys want to buy a shirt that says that phrase, you can go on our website.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Um, we'll make three bucks off of it.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Then insists that asking whether Babylon has really become the governing religious system is now somehow lunacy. No, we both agree that it has been. I've actually said in the end, it will be hard to distinguish the difference between Babylon and the church because they are both adorned in purple, they are both adorned in gold. Like this is the point. This is the this is this is the pseudo-messianism that comes at the end. Now he he makes fun of me for being apocalyptic. He calls me apocalyptic Anthony Abadi, but I don't see how you don't draw apocalyptic conclusions from the things that you're saying. Avoiding all right, so I was gonna say if Sede Vikantum is true, that's way more apocalyptic to me. Way more. That's like I I don't understand how Sede's can't come to the conclusion that these are the end times. I don't get that. This is the tragedy of much online traditionalism. It can diagnose the symptoms with energy, humor. I know he thinks we're funny though. Humor, uh, energy, and real affection for the old faith. It can see the official structures of full are full of revolutionaries. It can see that the post-conciliar establishment punishes tradition while blessing almost every liberal deviation, and that the old mass faithful are treated as dangerous while interreligious dialogues and yeah, we all know this, Chris. But when the question becomes unavoidable, it changes the subject to tone. No at all. What question exactly? The SEDAs are mean. It's not that the SETIs are mean, that they have no charity. There's a big difference. They have no charity, and they're not like they're nuts. Most of them, I know a handful that I really do like, but for the most part, they're not well-rounded people. I'm just saying, like for the most part, and that's online set as I don't want to say anything about like I have no, I've never been to a set of acuntists chapel. I don't know. Um, but when the question becomes all right, the set of acontists are mean, the converts are cringe. The other I mean, they are some of them, the ultra traditionalists are driving wedges. The people who ask hard questions are lunatics. The real problem becomes not the revolution, but the person who no, look, this is the point I made last show. We're talking about the SSPX. Nobody hates the society more than the SETA's. And the sooner the society guys recognize that, the sooner we could start with this pretend fiasco that the SETA's and the SSPX are on the same side. Because you can't tell the difference in a Mike Lewis tweet and a Novus Ordo Watch tweet. Like that's actually the point we're at. I asked this today. Who wrote this tweet? Mike Lewis or um or Novus OrtoWatch? And the tweet What was the answer? I'll tell you in a second. Let's let's find the tweet. Uh okay, so the tweet is Lefebvre maintained an absurd ecclesiology to justify his stance. Obviously, no fraternity has the right to survive at all costs, especially not against the will of the Roman pontiff.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

That's a Novus Orta watch tweet.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

That's a Novus Ordawatch tweet.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

But that could have come from Mike Lewis.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Lefebvre maintained an absurd ecclesiology to justify his stance. Obviously, no fraternity has the right to survive at all costs, especially not against the will of the Roman pontiff. Like Novus Ordawatch hates the set days. So my point is what you have with with certain guys.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

The SSBX.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry, the SSPX. What you have with the guys over at Integrity, and not all of them, I mean, I actually like all these guys. I like Steven. I like um Big Modernism. I'm not no, no, I don't like Chris Jackson.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

That's Chris Jackson.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

That's Chris Jackson. That's Big Modernism. I love Catholic Esquire. I love TLM Ryan. I love American public. I love all these guys. Like, I literally love all these guys. But I'm just saying, if you're going to play footsie with the SEDEs, I'm just telling you guys. You're good, you're feeding a beast that is about to turn on you. They will turn on you. They will turn on you. And they and they and I already see it with the SETIs. The SETIs are like Stephen Cox has a long way to go before we we trust it. It's like these guys don't like you guys. And it's because you come to the conclusion. If I mean, I don't know. You guys have to be a little more clear on where your stance is. Like, do you think just Leo's an anti-pope? Do you think just Leo and Francis are anti-pop? Are you beneficantist? Like, what I would like a little more clarity, which is why I like that Matt Gaspers is asking these questions. Like, we need to know what your position on this stuff is, because it kind of seems insane. Like you're just pushing set of contest positions and opinions without coming to those conclusions. So why do you why are you not a sede? Like it sounds like you've got to be. So you're saying it's projection. All the things they're saying about Trad Inc., all the things they're accusing Trad Inc of, that they won't come out and endorse the consecrations because they'll lose their SSPX audience. You're saying they won't come out as sede because they'll lose their Trad audience.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Is that so their position, right, is is way too you know too one side for more normie Catholics to ever you know play with, right? So they'll never have that audience. So they have the small a small part of the trad audience. Then to have you know to add to that, they then are they you know they buddy up to the settings so that they have a little bit of each side, but they're playing, you know, they're they're they're they're walking in line. If they ever fall completely to one side, they'll lose the other side because I mean that's just how that those two audiences are, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Um yeah, well, so what what what upset me with the Janet Smith thing is that Janet Smith probably didn't watch our last show, and Janet Smith would probably agree with every single thing I said, but then she goes and says excellent peace when Chris Jackson completely makes things up that I didn't say, misframes the entire episode and accuses me of avoiding conclusions. And I don't none of that is true. I just don't come to that conclude. Like I don't I I don't see how anybody can hold the position that there has been no valid pope since 1958. Like, how is that not the church defecting?

SPEAKER_01 26:03

If if if that's the case, then then it's all false.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Like the church has defected if we haven't had a valid pope since 1958, and there's been an anti-pope in the seat of power in the chair of Peter for this long, and the entire structure of the church has changed, and there's an entire like you the things that they that they say they don't follow to their logical end. They think we're not following our conclusions to it to the logical end. They're not. So it's frustrating when you have these guys doing this, but yeah, I don't know. I uh watching this whole thing fall out like this is is kind of

Pivot To Rome And The SSPX

SPEAKER_02 26:40

wild. So um, should we cover Leo and Pagliarani's interaction? Sure. Yeah, I think I think we should jump jump to that just for anybody that did not see it. Um let's see. I think I think I sent it in Taylor's tweet.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Um that's where I sent it. Well, you send two responses. I mean, should we start?

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Should we start with Leo? Yeah, let's start with Leo. Um I have uh Michael Haynes article.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Well, here, we don't need the article, we just we can read the letter itself. Yeah, the actual letter, right? Here we go. Okay. Here we go.

Pope Leo’s Letter On Schism

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Uh hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Please there.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Okay, with a paternal heart and aware of the responsibility entrusted to me by the Lord as the successor of the Apostle Peter, I address you and through you, the bishops, priests, seminarians, and faithful connected to the priestly fraternity of St. Pius X. The church recognizes the devotion to liturgical life, commitment to priestly formation, apostolic zeal, and desire for fidelity to tradition that characterize many people and communities connected to your fraternity. This has motivated the attentive and generous attitude that my predecessors have consistently shown you. In the spirit and filled with Christian affection, I plead with you and ask you with all my heart, please turn back. I urge you to consider carefully the spiritual good of the faithful because of the schismatic because the schismatic act, schismatic act, it's a tongue twister, because the schismatic act you are about to undertake would deprive them of the illicit and in some cases even valid reception of the sacraments, which they love and seek for their sanctification. The church is open to a path of dialogue and understanding that the Holy Spirit can make possible and fruitful. I pray for you because to tear the seamless garment of Christ is a sin of extreme gravity. May the Lord enlighten your consciences and awaken your hearts with a sorrowful yet hopeful heart. I feel it is my duty through the authority received from Christ to ask you to desist from your intended act. I entrust these intentions to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, mother of good counsel from the Vatican June 20. I gotta be honest, man. I have my issues, but if the frickin' Pope is saying something like that, it is hard to say like that to just flat out just be disobedient to the Pope is a tough one, man. Yeah, but yeah, that is a and I'm not saying this has nothing to do with my empathy for their situation, has nothing to do with whether I even think what they're doing is legit. I'm saying that the Pope writes you a letter, and he says, with the authority entrusted to me by Christ, I plead with you to desist from this act you are about to commit. Like that is a hard one to just say, nah, we're gonna do it anything. Like, I don't know. That's why I've never I've never taken the recognize and resist position. Like I've I've taken the uh like recognize and accept like it is what it is. There's not it's just not like looking. I I never said I don't complain about the church. What does that have to do with there's a lot one can complain about? There's plenty to complain about. I never said I don't complain about the church. I'm saying I would have a hard time if the Pope himself addressed me in a letter like that. That's a good point. It's a lot tougher to be openly disobedient to Jesus Christ. That's a yeah, I mean, look, that that's a good point. Like, and and the thing is, these well, yeah, it's a tough one, man. I'm not look, I'm not, I'm not I I like I understand that, right? The like these men, especially like that's why I said last episode. Part of me is like, go ahead and do it. Like, I I like that the society is a sign of contradiction that the church has to contend with. I like that they have a structure to them and that the way they operate actually is something for the the Vatican to contend with, like they have to deal with it and they have to face these changes, and they're the only ones that have like institutional power to confront these issues. I'm just saying, if the Pope wrote me that letter personally, yeah, I don't know if I can do it. Like it's just it's coming from the the Bishop of Rome, you know. I don't know. It's a it's a hard, it's a hard one. I'm not yeah, that's a hard one. So, all right, let's get into Paglirani's response.

Pagliarani Responds With A Father Son Tone

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Um let me see. I got it right here. Okay. Uh holy most holy father, thank you very much for the letter that your holiness so kindly addressed to me. I have been deeply touched by your paternal solicitude. For a long time, I had hoped to have the opportunity of meeting you in person in order to express to you directly our sincere desire to serve the church. Unfortunately, that opportunity has not presented itself. I ask only that you consider the sincerity of this intention, which is in no way feigned. Paradoxically, in the present circumstances, we believe it to be our very duty to do everything possible to mend Christ's seamless garment. So that's like you see the way Leo used it, and now Pagliorani's actually responding to like that is the proper usage of that term. Uh, torn by forces and pressures incompatible with a truly Catholic spirit. I ask only that you consider the authenticity of this intention before making a decision concerning the society of St. Pius X. It is not yet too late. Far be it from me, far be it from us to separate ourselves from the Roman Church. We desire, on the contrary, to serve her by means that are extraordinary, as one would assist a mother in distress who require particular help, even if such help is not understood by everyone. Yet I am certain that the Holy Father can understand it. The Holy See has shown itself capable of understanding very complex situations and of allowing time for discernment. May I therefore filially ask your holiness to take the time necessary for that discernment. If my own words are not sufficient, I would ask you to reflect upon two very simple facts. First, in the eighty eight in 1988, the society was already declared schismatic for reasons and circumstances entirely analogous to those of today. Yet after so many years, we are speaking together as a father and his son. Your holiness is paternally urging me to avoid a schism which theoretically has already taken place. Does not your very attitude, whose paternal concern I deeply appreciate, constitute proof that the society is neither schismatic nor hostile to the church? It's got a good point. Secondly, some years ago, the Holy See entrusted two bishops of the church with the task of engaging in dialogue with the Society of St. Pius X, Bishop Hounder and then Bishop of Chor, uh now deceased, and Bishop Schneider, auxiliary auxiliary bishop of Astana. Both, after taking the necessary time for discernment, recognized the profoundly Catholic spirit of the society and bore public witness to it. Above all, however, I venture to address your holiness in the name of the thousands of souls who have rediscovered the Catholic faith and the practice of religion through the apostolate of the society. This is a fact of which your predecessors themselves took note. These souls have but one desire to attain salvation through this instrument which divine providence has placed at their disposal. They have suffered and they are sincere. I am confident that your paternal heart, as universal as universal shepherd, will be moved by this very particular situation. One day all the difficult difficulties between the Holy See and Society will be resolved. A gesture of understanding on your part, far from harming unity, could only manifest before the world and before all Christians your concern for unity and your goodness as a father. I leave all this to your consideration. I renew your pre I renew my prayers for your holiness. For a long time, even before your election, I have been praying to Saint Rita for a present for the present situation. I saw in the election of an Augustinian Pope a sign of hope. I am certain that the saint will intercede. It will it is never too late. Please give us your blessing. I take this opportunity to remain with the deepest devotion in our Lord. Man, that because I'm watching both sides caricature the other. And I'm watching the society say Leo intervened the day before before he had no chance. And then I'm watching guys like Mike Lewis say the uh this is all uh this is all for the cameras on part of the society. And I'm just like, how do you how could your heart not be broken between these two positions, man? It's like, well, not even like I clearly side way more with the society. Like my I just think because Leo's threatening in his letter, he's threatening to take faculties away. Like he's threatening to take faculties away, faculties that were granted by Francis, right? Like, like this is it was like they're taking steps forward with Francis towards, you know. Look, I and and a lot of guys in the society will say, like, who cares if they give the blessing? But there's something about having the papal blessing that even if you guys are still not in canonical regularity, it gives some comfort to the faithful who are like on the fence and they're not sure, and they and like they want to go to the society because that's how they can nourish their faith the best, and they're like unsure. Now, if they see overtures of charity from that from Rome coming towards the society, like that that that's a big thing. And to I don't know, man. My my heart breaks for this whole situation. It's just I I don't I don't see Pagliorani being I hope I'm pronouncing his name right.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

Probably not, but yeah, I mean it's not like you're Italian or anything.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Pagliorani, Paliorani, if it's if you're gonna try and be real, I don't know, whatever. Um, I don't see him trying to rub anything in the Vatican. Like, I really think like you can maintain the irregular canonical status, just give them permission on these bishops so they can continue what they've been doing since 1988. I don't understand. I don't I don't understand the Vatican's position on this. It's like just grant them the bishops. I think they're they're afraid that granting them this will give like uh an overture of approval. It's like a virtue, you know, it's like a a signal of approval, but they can still, you know, it just shows a willingness.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

They give signals of approval for the gayest stuff available all the time.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

I know. I know the things that they get like you think about what they did with that archbishop, that archbishop of Canterbury. Like you talk about like what scandal is is given there. You know, I saw an interesting clip today. I put it in the telegram of um of Bishop Williamson.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Yeah, about the novice or yeah, it's pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

I want to play that. Um I want to play that because you you

Williamson Clip On The Novus Ordo

SPEAKER_02 38:20

would it shows the difference in in in the sete and the SSP exposition really well, right? Because the sets straight up say that the new mass is a new religion, right? But Williamson is like, look, I don't think that every single Novos Ordo Mass is invalid or whatever. He's like it's an interesting clip. We won't play the whole thing, but there's like the first minute or two are really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

The SSPX does not say that the Novosordo Mass is not. I think people need to stop saying shit that doesn't isn't real.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

So this listen to what Williamson said, and he addresses this very thing. So it's it's actually exactly what he's addressing here.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Yes.

unknown 39:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

I go to that mass on Sunday, and uh probably denounced this, but during the week I go to another quarter mass. Yes. I understand.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

Yes, okay, yeah, right. Um so pause it real quick. So this is this is a woman who goes to the Latin mass, but she goes to a daily novus ordo, right? And like if you've ever been to a daily novus order, it's like a low mass, right? There's no singing, there's not, you know, it's just it's probably one of the most reverent versions of the new mass you're going to find, right? There's no nonsense going on, it's really just a uh it's just you know, it's basically just a quick liturgy of the word and then the liturgy of the Eucharist, and then you know, you go. So she asks him, What you know, you'd probably denounce that, but what do you say to that?

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Can I put it in?

SPEAKER_00 40:13

There's the principles and then there's the practice. In principle, the novel sort of mass is a key part of the new religion, which is a major part of the worldwide apostasy of today, and therefore, the archbishop would say, in public, he would say, Stay away, keep away from the new mass. Um you might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb. You might, yeah, you might you what's the other what's the proverb? Um, you might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb. If you're gonna steal, then steal a sheep and don't just steal a lamb. What it means is um uh I'm gonna stick my neck out. I'm gonna stick my neck out a long way. And if anybody wants to chop it off, they're welcome. Uh I would say that in certain circumstances, like those you mentioned, uh exceptionally, if you're not gonna scandalize anybody, because they they know that you're a Catholic, they know that you are you're sticking to the true faith, and then they see you at the new mass, they may the conclusion that many of them will draw is the new mass is okay because she's going. You've got to be careful of that. So you've got to be careful. Um, I myself don't think that the new mass is always invalid. I don't think that. I don't know the artificial defense didn't think that. It it's there's nothing in the text of the new mass which makes it inevitably invalid. There are people who say so, I don't think they're right. According to Catholic theology, I don't think they're right. I think as you say, that it's very possible that the consecration is for real. You say that it's a priest who says it uh worthily. What I would say is that tomorrow there are going to be many novels ordered priests who are gonna come through, while there are gonna be traditional priests who are not gonna come through, exactly on what I've been saying, on the principles I've been saying. Some of the last will be first, some of the first will be last.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

I mean, look, we don't have to go through the whole thing, but just when Lefebvre spoke, he's saying, like, if you're gonna steal, like if you're gonna, if you're gonna get in trouble, like get in trouble. You know what I mean? Like, if you're gonna if you're gonna say something bombastic, say something bombastic, and it's like and the society is saying, like, their position is not that every novus order mass is invalid, their position is that the novice order liturgy is um uh dangerous. Like it's it, and it, and look, I don't care what anybody says, the new mask is look at look at all of our upbringing. Like the average person who goes to the Novus Orda, like you're losing your faith in like, and it's because of the way it is celebrated. I'm not saying the church promulgated something intrinsically you know wrong, I'm saying the way it is celebrated at the majority of parishes, it is something that is harmful to the faith. Like, I you you if you can bring your children to a traditional liturgy, bring your children to a traditional liturgy. But to his point, there's nothing in the theology of the the words of consecration that are not are to imply that it's not a valid mass, right? So my whole point with like the sedes and stuff is, and even even maybe guys in the society, I don't know what their position on this is, but to me, the church has the authority to change the liturgy, the church to to not its substance, but like the in the way things are celebrated and stuff. The church has the authority to change the language, the church has the authority to change certain things about it. It can't change, you know, its intrinsic. form but the church does have that authority and including ordinations and stuff so it's like how can you show me that the in all of all of the ordinations are invalid all of the all the bishops are invalid and what's the what is the solution to this mess that you guys have created by saying this I don't I don't understand how we get ourselves out of something like that and it it just makes it just doesn't make sense to me whereas I gotta run but it's crazy how the assessment of a long island moron and a man with autism is the most compassionate and thoughtful on offer in the Catholic world. Five stars five stars oh we should do we should do um we should do reviews there's any new ones there are there are new reviews oh boy um I thought so but my other ones um we aren't at a point in the church where people don't know when when to sit to kneel to stand they don't know the basic posture to take during a mass this is where we are at and it stems from Rome to be fair that no such things existed until the novosurdo came about as far as rubrics there were no rubrics for the laity yeah um look it's just the I I don't feel right speaking about the society because I don't know like I don't attend the society chapel right so I don't I don't like to speak on behalf of them and I don't like saying that I I understand the position I understand they I I understand even them looking at the situation and going our conscience demands we do this yeah like I you you see the insanity coming out of the Vatican and I understand them saying my conscience demands I I have to go on like this and they are not disobeying the pope but they are not dislike they're they're they are seeing it as if it's I'm either disobedient to Christ or the pope because their conscience demands it now if anybody should have compassion to this view it's the modern Vatican right I mean how often do we hear conscience allows you to do whatever you want yeah I mean you're talking about some of the most insane things coming and they'll and they'll they'll say well somebody's conscience that you know it's the primordial Christ and they have to follow the primordial Christ in their heart and that you know and they've used it to justify people who have had malformed consciences whereas the society guys do not have a malformed conscience like they're seeing the Catholic faith that has been passed on to us throughout the ages and then all of a sudden they're not allowed to celebrate the same mass that was celebrated for thousands of years you know to a degree whatever small changes and stuff um the consecration is not necessarily invalid but the new right itself is harmful to the faith because the prayers and structure are contrary to the teachings of the faith that is the SSP exposition. Yeah I mean I I I don't I think the new right itself can be harmful I don't say it always is but I do definitely think it can be I mean I think I think the old right is the foundation upon which western civilization is built I think it's where it's it's what built the western world I hate saying the western world it's what built christendom and I think where the new right is built upon if the old world if the old right built the the Christian the old world the new right was built by the modern world yeah yeah the opposite way around right like the old right built the the the old world and the new right was built by the modern world like it it absolutely can be harmful to the faith and most people are harmed by it the especially in the way it's celebrated. You that you we've talked how many times about how disordered it is to have girl altar boys you talk about the trans issue that's going on in our culture the same boomers who are freaking out about the trad issue uh the trans issue are then going to a novice order mass where there's girl altar boys and not seeing the connection there not seeing that the church has confused the role of male and female i don't know if it's even right to say the church the hierarchy whatever i you know if i make a mistake it's a mistake it's not it's just like the the the things that the vatican has allowed have confused the masses to to feminism has crept into the liturgy in unprecedented ways like and you you think about how much influence the synagogue has had on our liturgy like I'm sorry man it's just there there's no culture that is going to be inspired by the novus ordo liturgy to be built like it's just not going to inspire a new culture the way the old liturgy inspired the old world it's not going to happen so yeah I I am I don't know it's hard it's hard to not see both sides in this one and I and I I think everybody needs to see both sides because I think I think if if your heart isn't like broken by this I think that you're you're missing something because this is this is a tear in the body of Christ somehow even if it's not like an official tear or anything like that. Like it's a it's a tear it between a father and son. You're watching a dialogue between a father and son and you're seeing a family in in in agony right like it's just I don't know I it's it's hard for me to not not for my heart not to hurt there in this whole thing the novel novasoto mass is not dangerous like a robber is it's dangerous like a bad security system is that's that's a good analogy. You see who it is Cameron O'Hearn yep very cool yeah um it's just look look I mean we all we all grew up in it we all grew up in it Rob and I are cradle Catholics I was raised in this stuff yeah and the thing is like my faith came alive when I found tradition like that's when that's when like my faith came alive. So I I talk all the time about like you know you don't ever hear like the set a conversion story where it's like once I came to the conclusion that the Bishop of Rome was an anti-pope my life was you don't hear that but you do hear stories of people who grew up in the novice order and all of a sudden they find the traditional mass and they're like man I can't tell you how different my life is ever since attending this literature it helped my spiritual life it helped my relationships it helped everything. But I don't see that with sideism I'm sorry I see nothing but bitterness when people come to that conclusion bitterness and anger and cult-like behavior where if somebody doesn't agree with you you cast them off and you want nothing to do with them and I can't even talk to this person and that's that's what I see in Cedivacantism. So clearly there's there's something going on there and I'm I don't know I whatever man I'm sorry that you guys are left having the opinion of a Long Island construction worker and an autistic gun collector but this is where we're at and it's like I don't you know I I don't know Catholic Esquire I I I freaking love he's in our chat tonight like I'm not I'm not um I'm not even knocking those guys over there. I think Stephen Cox really does need to work through what he actually does think and I think he needs to come out with a coherent statement of what he what he what his position is because or maybe he should get offline until he's ready to do that. No I think he's a very talented writer and I think he's you know whatever I just think to for Chris Jackson to be accusing us of avoiding the question I'm not avoiding anything and I'll have a conversation with anyone did you see in the chat earlier no putting words in her mouth again you guys actually think Leo is being sincere in this letter that is a sign that I don't think you understand what's going on with no no no I didn't look dropping it a day before I don't I'm not saying he's insincere he could have done this a long time ago I understand all that I'm just looking at the letter itself and the response like I really do think the society really does it's I don't think the society wants full communion right they don't they I think they just want permission to to consecrate the bishops so they can continue their irregular canonical status and I think that's kind of okay I kind of think that's okay. I think they should have an irregular canonical status and I think that the the pope should give them permission to consecrate the bishops and I think they should kind of have this this sign of contradiction like I don't I don't think they should be like the indult communities. I think I think they serve a purpose to society I I don't go to one myself but I do think they serve a purpose and I think that God's going to use all of this for his purpose and one day and I do think there will be a full reconciliation one day too like I do think there will be a restoration of Peter the way Peter was restored after he denied Christ three times like I think that's how the story plays out I think there's going to be a restoration of Peter where he'll once again Christ will say Peter feed my lambs or Peter do you love me you know I love you Lord Peter do you love me you know I love you Lord feed my lambs feed my sheep that's going to happen because that's how the story plays out I don't know when it's going to happen but that's how I see this whole thing playing out but I don't see any any place where I would leave the visible church like I I don't know and I would agree with what Williamson said there that you have to go where you have to go to live a Catholic life right now. And if the only option you have is a Nova Sorta go to the most reverent one you possibly can do everything you can to make sure the fit the nonsense in that liturgy are not ruining your children's faith because there are going to be things there that your children will see and subconsciously will just you know when you're handing out the Eucharist like it's a cracker subconsciously that has an effect on a person.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

So do everything you can to guard against the stuff that made all of us lose our faith growing up so all right look we'll keep this one short I'm just glad that after tomorrow and you know whatever the Pope Leo does that's gonna settle it once and for all and we never have to talk about this again right there's gonna be one definitely what happened after 1988.

Rerum Novarum Tease And Locals Wrap

SPEAKER_02 54:39

Yeah well there's going to be a response from Rome and we're going to see what happens like we're gonna we're going to see what happens um Rob and I are going to do Rarum Navarum on Thursday um part one anyways part one it's going to be a two parter so if you guys uh you know we're dealing with all of the things that led up to the chaos we're in today so that's uh we're gonna do it on Thursday part one of Rare Mavarum um and you know it's funny some of the uh some of the quotes from Leo Francis even earlier from JP2 that people complain about sounding communist I'll tell you right now some of the tough one man rare is a tough one I'm telling you you guys I I can't I going through it you're just like holy cow were we indoctrinated as Americans yeah honestly that's that you holy cow were we indoctrinated as Americans and it is just it's a challenging encyclical to read I had to buy another book to go along with it to try and like understand it better because there's some stuff in there that you would be like oh this is commie and he's like literally condemning communism a next sentence later so it's just you know it's it's how capital relates to the worker and it's it's a it's a heavy subject so it's we're gonna have to break it into two parts and we're gonna do a deep dive into it because uh yeah it it's definitely a challenging one Catholic should not have just a capitalist mindset. So we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna tackle that on Thursday um we're going over to locals now locals we got a lot of stuff to do over on locals man my wife crashed my car her car and I got a story for the woman I she she hit a parked car and she calls me hysterical you have to come back there with me and leave a note I'm like why don't you leave a note she's like I can't go back there you have to come with me so I go back and I leave a note oh my gosh no good deed goes unpunished that's all I'll say at least you're not getting sued this time around like last time around how did you never talked about that lawsuit after the initial thing I had both of my kids got an accident that maxed out my insurance policy a hundred thousand dollar liability coverage both of my kids within six months of them beginning to drive my son first and then my daughter so I can't put another one through insurance so I have to pay for this one cash it's just it's a yeah it's just a scratch you can buff it out it's just a scratch you can buff it out I'll go to see Sebastian about a scalco in two months so yeah we'll save it for locals we're doing it over our locals all right guys meet us on the other side oh my gosh Rob just got booted from the stream now I have to take us out let me see if I can find a song oh he's back he's back guys button I thought I was gonna have to figure out how to end this thing all right take us out Rob play a song bring us over to locals well I'm gonna I'm gonna take us out make sure we're on locals and then play the uh oh we got Taffy's video we got taffy's we got taffy's video which I have not seen you guys will not want to miss it on locals so hold on let me get the the link for locals real quick for everyone I can't believe ocean didn't get banned or a timeout this episode I mean there's still time on locals I've never given him a locals timeout that's because you don't know how I do I can do it from my computer I almost did last episode I almost gave gave ocean a timeout last episode on locals guys and for those of you who are not on locals it's five bucks nobody still charges five dollars everywhere else is eight bucks twelve bucks Rob and I have kept it at five we call this foreshadowing by the way yeah it's going up rates are going up soon because not enough of you are coming over there and this is the only way we keep the lights on at this place so is ocean about to get the boot ocean nah can't ban me over here oh really ocean let's see timeout timeout for we'll give him one minute just to show him I can down for a minute ocean you got a one minute timeout all right take us out Rob okay I'm just gonna cut the streams here okay Facebook gone