A Slice of Bread and Butter
The voice of The Bread and Butter Thing - with stories from the frontline of the cost of living crisis from one of the UK's leading food charities.
A Slice of Bread and Butter
Beyond Food and Fuel: Working Families', Hidden Struggles
Vic and Mark welcome Hayley, Assistant Chief Executive at Citizens Advice Manchester, for a candid conversation about the changing face of financial hardship in Britain today.
The discussion reveals a troubling shift in who's seeking support – it's no longer just people out of work, but increasingly those in employment who find themselves unable to make ends meet. "People who are in quotation, quotation marks, doing everything right," as Hayley puts it, yet still facing impossible financial choices. Many have depleted any savings buffer they once had and are now cutting back "to the bone" just to survive.
Most alarmingly, Citizens Advice is seeing a significant increase in people with "negative budgets" – where income simply doesn't cover essential expenses like rent, energy bills and council tax, even after maximising all available benefits. This stark reality creates challenges not only for those experiencing hardship but also for the advisors trying to help them.
The conversation introduces a powerful concept that encapsulates a fundamental problem in our support systems: "Hidden help doesn't help." Social tariffs and support schemes exist but remain largely unknown to those who most need them. Both organisations are tackling this by taking their services directly to communities – Citizens Advice with their advice van visiting locations like B&M car parks, and The Bread and Butter Thing through community hubs providing affordable food alongside access to additional support.
Vic and Mark reflect on when life became so unaffordable for working families. Was it austerity measures following the 2008 crash? The COVID pandemic? Or a gradual erosion over decades? Whatever the cause, the effects are clear – with many spending 30-39% of their income on food alone, leaving precious little for other essentials.
Want to learn how The Bread and Butter Thing and Citizens Advice are bringing practical support to communities? Subscribe to hear more conversations exploring how collaborative approaches can help people navigate an increasingly unaffordable world.
Welcome back to A Slice of Bread and Butter with Vic and Mark from the Bread and Butter Thing. We're a charity that delivers affordable food to the heart of struggling neighbourhoods to help nourish communities and act as a catalyst for change.
Speaker 2:We provide access to a nutritious, affordable range of food, which means our members can save money on their shopping, feed their families healthily, as well as access other support to right in the heart of their communities.
Speaker 1:And this is where we share a slice of life with someone involved in the bread and butter thing and hear about how they connect with us.
Speaker 2:And this week it's Hayley from Citizens Advice, so let's have a listen.
Speaker 3:I'm Hayley. I'm the Assistant Chief Exec here at Citizens Advice in Manchester. We provide information, advice, representation. Our key issues that we support people with are around welfare benefits, so that could be anything from helping somebody to understand their entitlement to welfare benefits. It could be helping people to challenge a decision that's been made about their welfare benefits and everything in between. We support people who are in debt or are worried about getting into debt and really, really importantly, all of the debt advice that we give is free and it is FCA regulated, so the FCA, the Financial Conduct Authority. That's really really important that people are getting that quality assured advice. We also deliver advice around housing, helping people to understand if they may be eligible for social housing and also helping people when they're in really difficult situations that they might be at risk of losing their home, and that goes right up to the point where we will represent people in court to try and make sure that as many people as possible remain in their homes. And really, really importantly, at the minute, we support a lot of people with energy issues. So we're seeing thousands of people across our city who need support to understand their energy bill, to be able to afford their energy costs and, where possible, save them some money on their energy bills as well, which is always very welcome.
Speaker 3:How did you get into it? Throughout university I worked in the voluntary sector. I worked with really vulnerable young people and then, when I graduated, I worked for Barnardo's in the east end of Glasgow working with young people who were involved in sometimes offending behaviour, and then my career took a little bit of a different pathway. Then I got involved in project management and business development and partnership engagement, because all of that work is so important to make sure that our organisations work together and collaborate to get all of the best outcomes we can get for people. And then I came to Citizens Advice Manchester nearly 12 years ago.
Speaker 2:We talk a lot about people struggling to get by, and we see the common things as well. We we see food and fuel, absolutely food and fuel every day, yeah from what you've just said. Clearly you get the same. Looking at the people, are you seeing, with the cost of living crisis, etc. A different demographic coming to you?
Speaker 3:yeah, without a doubt. Um, so yeah, we're seeing exactly the same things. You're exactly right food and fuel and making those difficult choices, day by day, week by week, about what to prioritize. Yeah, since the pandemic cost of living crisis, energy crisis, it's been crisis after crisis for people, um, people who are in work, um, people who have been in work for a number of years who, over the last number of years, that financial resilience has has gone. Maybe they had a buffer of some savings. That's gone. Inflation and cost of living has just skyrocketed. So, yeah, we're speaking to people across all demographics who are in some really difficult and really challenging situations.
Speaker 2:So a lot more working families absolutely.
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, people who are in quotation, quotation marks, doing everything right, who, yeah, suddenly are in that situation where, yeah, they're having to make really difficult choices and what we hear from people is they've already done a lot, they've already made a lot of those tough decisions. The holidays have gone. You know all of those kind of I mean. Some people would call them luxuries, but is a holiday a luxury? It's, it's, you know? Um, they've, they've all gone and, yeah, they're now having to really cut back to the bone and really think about what is it that they can do next to get that budget to balance? And we're seeing a significant increase in the amount of people coming to us who are in what we call a negative budget, and essentially what that means is they've not got enough money to afford the essentials, so they can't afford their priority bills rent, mortgage, council tax your energy bills.
Speaker 3:They, they simply can't afford them.
Speaker 2:And is that even with your help? So they've maximised all their income.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a difficult reality for some people. It's much more difficult to get those advice solutions for them, and that's obviously incredibly difficult for the people that we're supporting because they come to us to to find a solution, and it's also really difficult for our team because we're all in the business of solving people's problems I was going to ask you that it must be really tough when you're problem solvers, but actually even when you've tried your best absolutely, it's really, really difficult and that's why, at citizens advice, we are a twin aim organization.
Speaker 3:So, absolutely, we provide that advice to the individuals and their families to resolve those problems. But we use all of that data and all of that insight to advocate for change and because we're part of that uk-wide network, we can do that at a national level as well. So look to influence that national policy and use our voice, which is in essence, the voice of the people that we're supporting, to advocate for change to policies and practices to improve people's lives.
Speaker 2:So what are the big asks at the moment?
Speaker 3:Yeah, good question. So a lot of big asks at the moment. Something that we're really focused on at the minute is around social tariffs. So we are seeing so many people who are struggling with their energy bills and you know, energy is just an essential, isn't it and also people struggling with other bills, like broadband, because broadband has become an essential for so many of us now, particularly as more and more of us work from home, and we're asking for yet more options in terms of social tariffs. So, first of all, raising awareness that social tariffs are an option for people and also looking at how that social tariffs can maybe be extended into other utilities so that people can benefit from reductions in their gas, their electricity, which would just make such a massive difference to so many people.
Speaker 2:So that's one of our key asks one of the things that we find particularly with working families yeah is they really do struggle to find that advice and support yeah because they're busy working right, absolutely yeah, so they're not tapping into the benefits channels to get that support. We're really wanting more of that awareness raising and accessibility, because if there are things like social tariffs, for example, and if they came in as a policy, then surely you could auto-enroll people that are on a particular wage or income absolutely absolutely so.
Speaker 3:When people talk about welfare benefits we've, they very often assume we're talking about people who aren't in work, and that's that's not the case. There are so many people who rely on benefits to top up their income. So, for example, if somebody's in receipt of universal credit, they are eligible for a lot of social tariffs for example, a broadband tariff but they don't always know about them and sometimes, unfortunately, their broadband provider doesn't let them know about it.
Speaker 2:I find it super cynical that you and I can read about social tariffs in the Guardian.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And yet the people that really need them don't get marketed to.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and that's one of our key asks at the minute is to make people aware of it, but also see where there's opportunities to connect that to the welfare benefit system. So there are these natural triggers that people don't need to be asked.
Speaker 2:We've developed this into a bit of a slogan for us. We genuinely feel that this really cuts to the heart of it. Hidden help doesn't help that's a really good slogan, yeah, yeah we see it time and again with particularly working families that awareness of what they could get as support when they're doing everything that you know you and I, society would like them to be in work. They're in work. Government wants them to be in work, they're in work. So why the hell are we not helping them?
Speaker 3:Exactly, and I think for us, it's about looking for opportunities where we can take our service to people, whether that's a library, whether that's in ASDA or a bread and butter hub. The bread and butter thing Absolutely Wherever that is about taking our service to people. So we've got an advice van which enables us to do that.
Speaker 2:I know I've seen it, I love it. So we've got an advice van which enables us to do that. I know I've seen it, I love it.
Speaker 3:It's great, isn't it? And that is literally that principle of ours in action. We can take the advice van to people. So we said to people well, where do you want us to go? Because we can, I mean, we can take a guess, but we don't know Every one of our bread and butter hubs please. Yes, I know we bring butter hubs, please. Yes, I know we bring it to your hubs. Don't mean it's always great um, and they said home bargains.
Speaker 2:It's a good show.
Speaker 3:Yeah, people said, that's where I go. I go there every week.
Speaker 2:We ask people where do you want to see us? It's lovely, but I guess, like us, you must be under an enormous pressure at the moment yeah, um, we don't meet all the demand.
Speaker 3:It's always been this way, but that demand has grown significantly in the last three years in particular so that's the fuel crisis then yeah, I think it was the beginning of 2022 and I remember looking at the data and it was just a massive spike in demand and, yeah, it feels like that spike is never really flatlined and we see peaks throughout the year, as you'd expect, as we go into winter, as the new price caps are announced.
Speaker 2:January.
Speaker 3:January or end of August, when people are starting to prepare for the kids going back to school, and suddenly it's like how am I going to afford these school uniforms? My washing machine's just broken, or you know all of these, all of these things.
Speaker 2:So housing and is that rented, mortgaged or both?
Speaker 3:um, a mixture. So we've certainly seen more people come to us who are owner occupiers, so have have a mortgage, but also people who are struggling with increasing rents in the private rented sector and obviously, people looking to access social housing. Obviously that's a that's a challenge. That's not a challenge that's unique to Manchester, but nonetheless it's a challenge in Manchester.
Speaker 2:OK, lastly, what would be the priority for you, Hayley, to actually address, be that within the work that you do or the policy asks what would you like to see change?
Speaker 3:It's really hard to get it down to one. I'm thinking of ways I can weave about three into one.
Speaker 2:Well, go on, let's see if you can weave three into one.
Speaker 3:I think, first of all, it's about that continued collaboration. We collaborate with so many organisations and we can't solve everyone's problems, because they come to us and they've also got challenges with their mental health and they need to access food, so that collaboration has to stay there. And the reality of it is for, as we're a charity is around sustainability, which again comes back to collaboration. You know we've got great funders and we've got great partners, but obviously we just need to make sure that that sustainability is there, because advice issues aren't going to go away.
Speaker 2:I love it because we see it ourselves. We're piggybacking services like yours into the bread and butter house because we recognize we can't do everything for our members, so we have to bring other services in, be that financial or mental health or physical health. For that, yeah, of course. Um, so yeah, love that, and we're definitely on the same page, hayley. So we would definitely shout your stuff yeah great, no, likewise, or we'll, we're definitely on the same page, hayley, so we will definitely share your stuff.
Speaker 3:Yay, great, no, likewise, or we'll always do the same, because I know that you do so much work around digital exclusion, which is, yes, a massive barrier for so many people. So yeah long may the collaboration continue.
Speaker 2:I've never met Hayley before and I really liked Hayley Hayley's brill, yeah, and I think there's all sorts that we could do together and I don't think we do enough together.
Speaker 1:Me and Hayley have got plans great.
Speaker 2:We just need to make them happen yeah, isn't it funny how we all have. I don't know. It's like if you looked at the Venn diagram of everything that we all do. We all kind of overlap. But I love the fact that they've got this van now.
Speaker 1:Because you think it's like our vans.
Speaker 2:Everyone needs a van because you've got to go into the communities, right? You can't just sit on your arse outside in an office. You've got to be active and get in there. I accept that once you've engaged you can come out, but to initially engage and build that relationship, that's exactly why we have additional services in our hubs to help that engagement piece, though. And I almost wanted it on a film as well, because it was almost like a lightbulb moment when I said hidden help doesn't help.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:It really chimed.
Speaker 1:Really, it really did chime Nice. I liked that they're taking their van into B&M car parks.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's great Genius. Take it to the people.
Speaker 2:They did what we do, yeah. They asked where should we take it?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you get some curveballs at times, but it works yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I think that's brilliant and it's great that people think about support when they're not in a time that you know everybody gets that. I've got the letter through the door and I'm feeling really rubbish about it and it's a red letter and that's a harder time, isn't it? To ask for help when you're down in the doldrums, definitely. But if you're out on B&M doing a bit of retail therapy and then they're there, you might just feel like you've got the confidence to approach him 100.
Speaker 2:There's so much about what we do together and obviously great that you've got plans, boss, because definitely think we need to lean into this relationship because they're talking the same thing. You know more people, different demographics. They're seeing more and more working families with challenges and that's a real thing that we're seeing more and more and more with. I know people are saying food and fuel all the time and Hayley was saying it but mortgages.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Mortgages are sky high.
Speaker 1:I think, just life. Yeah, nothing in life is cheap anymore, is it no? So it doesn't matter whether it's your mortgage or the landlord putting the rent up or any of it, public transport, any of it it's just all the costs arising.
Speaker 2:So I always take bread and butter home with me, and all roads lead to conversations about bread and butter at home. So the one that we're trying to work out is when was it that things were affordable? What's happened? Is it a bit like a lot of other stuff that seem like they've increased in numbers because there's a 24 hour news stream and social media? Or is it genuinely that life's harder for low income working households? Because when was it that suddenly it was a luxury for a working family to go on holiday? Because we were talking about this earlier, right, we were yeah, when's it changed? What's happened?
Speaker 1:So I don't think anyone can remember life before covid and like how cheap was it before covid versus after?
Speaker 2:I'm gonna take your covid and raise you austerity, mr osborne oh yeah 2008 financial crash yeah because there were literally millions cut out of the public purse and laid off everywhere. There was so much of it because everybody's forgot, right? You were like, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I was in the council then. I worked in the public sector then and watched loads of people be made redundant, and there was a whole thing about salami slicing services. So it wasn't. We can't.
Speaker 2:That's the second time I've heard that today. Oh really, yeah, how bizarre Because it's on the agenda again.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, the salami slicing which was around, we're not allowed to stop anything because the council has to do all of these functions, whether they had any impact or not. So it was salami slice. Make everything a little bit less.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that meant, you know, make a few people redundant, but do the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah, less, yeah, and that meant, you know, make a few people redundant, but do the same, yeah. So I think we've got to look at this and probably try and understand what's happened, because we've got stats around the percentage of income that's spent on food just about to say that.
Speaker 1:I was just about to say that it's not just about how expensive everything is. It's also about what money is. 57% of our members have less than £300 a week to live off. That's everything, and they're spending 30% to 39% of that budget on food.
Speaker 2:Right, and I just left Keely from the brig.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And she's telling me that a decent home to live in in Wigan rented is like £300, £400 a week. So how can you actually afford if're only on 300 quid a week to actually your property must be exorbitant. It's sucking everything out of your purse yeah, so it's both, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, but when did it change? Wait what's happened. Because you know the thatch rights would tell you it's a great thing for everybody to actually get their mortgages and own their property. And it was a very English thing to own your own home and all the rest of it. That's rubbish. It's all about your kind of monthly outgoings, isn't it? It's like I don't care if it's rented or owned, as long as I can afford it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and afford to live, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:So I say pre-covid you say austerity, maybe somewhere a bit in the both, it feels more, yeah, acute now than it did before. I feel I'm gonna nerd out a bit because I think I feel it's happened over 20 years.
Speaker 2:Okay, I've already done this work okay, I will share it with you so I love the van, but I I love the mobility, because you can't just set up in one place and expect everybody to come to you. You've got to go around each community. But I think also there's this thing about expectation. So how do you give people the ability and tools to be able to stand on their own two feet? So we do this with stretching budgets right, yeah, cab, do it through the policy and advice and income maximization. But there's a lot of things happening at the moment that, controversially, I would say, are giving people stuff rather than actually allowing them to find a way to slightly afford it, shall we say, if it's a subsidized offer yeah I think I'm thinking about agency and how we help people stand on their own two feet.
Speaker 1:Totally so slight tangent but the new free school meals announcement, which says that there's going to be another half a million kids that are eligible, because everyone that gets universal credit can now apply.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So that's a good step in the right direction. Can't say that it isn't, but where's the agency for mum and dad to put the food in the fridge?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:How are we giving mum and dad the tools to be able to provide the kids with the right food?
Speaker 2:And I haven't seen the details. Vic, I know it's everybody on universal credit, but have they moved the threshold as well? Or is it just now everybody on universal credit? Because what about people that are low income, full-time workers that don't get universal credit?
Speaker 1:So we'll need to fact check this. However, I think it's just people on universal credit. Yeah, that's what I think the gateway thing.
Speaker 2:So again, what we've got is the fringe people that we see every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, haven't benefited from this either no, and there's many of our members that will be on benefits and won't know how much they're getting as a top up yeah, week on week or month on month, and that makes them precarious. And I also don't know how the free school meal thing plays out for their children, because what happens if one month you get a top up?
Speaker 2:and one month. You don't free school meals one week I don't know yeah tricky but this is why it's so complicated, right?
Speaker 1:so this is why hayley and her team are doing an amazing job, because they're helping these people that are really busy with a lot on the place navigate something that's quite an opaque system agreed and then helping them fill out the forms, which are 20 pages long.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, and hayley's on the same page, right, because she was saying kias, more social tariffs on energy and broadband, and I would say increased awareness of those tariffs, because actually we have so many people that don't know. They don't have a scooby, they're out there and these are the people that should be marketed to. So is there a duty of care on employers of low income people? Is there a duty of care on the local low-income people? Is there a duty of care on the local authorities or the government? There should be an active marketing budget to say we've created all these tariffs and now we want people to use them. Or is it just that there's a lot of cynicism out there, that they don't really want people to use these tariffs?
Speaker 1:Well, I think if you look at the amount of budget that the government used to communicate mainstream support schemes, you'll see that that's really tiny. So social tariffs don't really belong to government. So they're certainly not going to do any promotion around there because they don't even really promote their own schemes, the mainstream benefits that people should be getting.
Speaker 2:So I'm more cynical than you are, clearly so if you'd like to know more about the bread and butter thing and what we get up to, you can find us at team team ebt on instagram, tiktok, twitter and linkedin, and online at bread and butter thingorg and yes, I did just slip tiktok in there again I know, and if you have any feedback or thoughts on the podcast or would like to come and be our guest, drop us an email at podcast at bread and butter thingorg and lastly, we're always open to new members at all of our hubs, so if you or someone you know would benefit from our affordable food scheme, you can find your nearest hub on the become a member page on our website and please do all of those things that podcasts ask you to do.
Speaker 1:Like us, subscribe, leave us a review, share us with your friends and chat about us on social massive thanks to hayley.
Speaker 2:See you next time you.
