A Slice of Bread and Butter

Debt Advice That Puts People First with Payplan

• The Bread and Butter Thing

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Money stress rarely arrives politely. It shows up as a brown envelope you avoid opening, a skipped meal to cover a minimum payment, or a quiet dread when the doorbell rings. We invited Anthony and Emma from PayPlan to share how free, confidential debt advice can break that spell and help people stabilise faster than they expect. Together, we trace the path from first contact to a realistic plan, and why a simple WhatsApp message can be a softer, safer entry point when anxiety is high.

We walk through the nuts and bolts: reviewing credit reports with consent so you stop guessing who you owe, rebuilding a budget that puts food and heat first, and tackling priority debts before they spiral. Along the way we unpack rising trends—homeowners and higher earners squeezed by mortgage shocks, self‑employed people juggling business and personal debts, and Gen Z caught by buy now, pay later while buying everyday essentials. The message is clear: early help widens your options, late help narrows them, and avoidance is the most expensive bill of all.

Our hubs see the human side every week: members borrowing to cover basics, parents putting food on credit, and households trying to make £100 stretch across a month. Community makes a difference. When advice sits alongside affordable food and friendly faces, stigma falls. We challenge a “cash first” view and make the case for “cash plus”—immediate relief paired with ongoing, practical support that reflects real life. If you’re worried about confidentiality or your credit score, breathe: asking PayPlan for advice won’t show up, the service is free, and you can choose phone, email, chat, or WhatsApp at your pace.

Ready to take the first step? Visit payplan.com, use the WhatsApp link on their contact page, or call freephone 0800-316-1833. For affordable food and community support, find us at breadandbutterthing.org and on social at TeamT BBT. If this helped, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find their way to support.

SPEAKER_01:

Hello and welcome back to a slice of bread and butter with me, Vic, and Mark. We're from the Bread and Butter Thing.

SPEAKER_03:

We run a network of mobile food clubs that take surface food from supermarkets, farms and factories. We take it straight into communities where families are struggling to get by.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, for less than a tenner, our members get bags packed with fruit, veg, fridge food, and cupboard staples. It's a weekly shop that helps stretch the budget and take some of the pressure off.

SPEAKER_03:

Our members are at the heart of everything we do. They turn food into friendship and neighbours into community, and that's what makes us tick.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and today it's Anthony and Emma from PayPlan.

SPEAKER_04:

My role is really to be a point of contact for organisations to link in with to understand more about how we can support communities and those that they serve.

SPEAKER_00:

And I'm Emma Gibbons, and my type at PayPlan is a Vulnumity lead. So I really support all of our different teams across all different operational areas to really ensure that any of your members accessing our service really get all the support and adjustments that they need.

SPEAKER_03:

Let's go headlines, Anthony. Tell us about what you do, what your ambition is.

SPEAKER_04:

So our service, we've been around for 33 years now. And originally we were set up as a dedicated debt advice service for the police. Because back in the early 90s, if you were a police officer struggling with debts, you had to really be careful with how you manage your finances and affairs. Now we help over four and a half thousand people every single week that come to us for free and confidential debt advice services. And that's something that we're quite unique in because we offer not only the advice but also a plan of action of how to resolve that problem and how to access the solution to move forward with someone's life. And our ambition really is to connect with as many people as we possibly can. We want to make sure that nobody's left behind when it comes to debt advice and moving forward. So, what does that look like as an interaction for bread and butter?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, clearly, some of the members that you'll be servicing will have wider support needs, people that are very nervous about accessing our service. So we really make sure that when we're interacting with your hubs that they're very much aware of who PayPal are, what we do, and how we can support people to really remove the stigma and embarrassment that people may find when they are in debt and in financial difficulty.

SPEAKER_03:

I guess it's practical as well as mental health support, as well, is it?

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely, because when we did a recent survey ourselves, 85% of all of our clients accessing our service did say that they were really struggling with their mental health. Because mental health and debt they are intrinsically linked. It's chicken or egg situation, really, which one comes first, because one will absolutely drive the other. And our teams are really aware of that, so they really do build up that trust. And some of the things that we can do are ensuring that they work with an advisor on a one-on-one level, so they're building those relationships. We can break down appointments into bite-sized chunks so they're not overwhelmed all at once, they know what to do at certain times, and we can give them a bit of an action plan. So, this is what you need to do today. So take that away, work on that, come back to us, and then we can look at what to do next. So it's really manageable.

SPEAKER_03:

Walk us through what it looks like then for an interaction with, let's say, one of our members.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, it's a good question because actually it's often not what they expect, it's a lot easier. Again, some research that we've done shows that 21% of people that finally come through to us have often struggled with debt alone without accessing support for over four years. We know that really builds anxiety and it can really lead on to mental health problems, but also that ripple effect within relationships and within the workplace. And we know that often then the longer that people delay, debt problems can then escalate to debt crisis. So for us, one of our key messages is always come to us as soon as possible because first of all, it won't be what you expect, it'll be a lot easier. And also, you'll find there's an easier path to walk through. Um, so in terms of what that path looks like and how that journey works, it's actually different for everybody that comes to us because everybody will have different requirements and needs and wants. And if we look at the average person coming to us, they will have on average about 17,000 pounds worth of debt, and on average they are struggling with about seven different creditors, seven different debts. So it's quite rare that someone comes to us with just one problem. They'll need something really holistic to help them to move forward. So, what we'll do is really work with them at a pace that's comfortable. They can select whether they want to work with us over the telephone, would they prefer digital email? We have live chat, we have our main website that people can come through and access. But one thing that we've implemented several years ago that's really come on leaps and bounds is access through WhatsApp. And that can really work in in favour of someone because it relaxes their approach to the next step. And a lot of people struggle to even know who I owe money to or how much I owe anymore because they don't want to look. They don't want to look. They've lost track of debts being passed on from debt collection company to debt collection company. So, again, to reassure people, one thing we can do with their permission is we can access credit report data and then also look at their budget. About 50% of people that come to us say, I've not been eating properly, or I've not been putting my heating on because I've been trying to pay these bills. And what we want to do is bring balance back, prioritize that person, look at everything they need within the home in terms of those costs, and then look at what we can do to deal with the debts once that's stabilised, and really come up with a plan of action and look at the options available. So it's really done at their pace, and someone could do that all in one go, or as Emma said, in bite-sized pieces as well.

SPEAKER_03:

Have you seen over the cost of living crisis, if we're still calling it that?

SPEAKER_00:

Or the new normal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Have you seen a shift in demographics and the types of people coming for advice and support?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we really have actually. We've um seen a big increase in the amount of homeowners that are coming to us. So we've always had a proportion of that, but never to the scale that we are now, and that really shows actually the impact of the mortgage rate increases and that kind of thing. So more, a lot more homeowners, more self-employed.

SPEAKER_03:

We see a lot of working people, yeah. So be that POYE or self-employed, but it's an interesting one. Nobody's actually said self-employed specifically to me before.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think that's because they have business debts, they have personal debts, they're trying to align the two, things get mixed up, they might start using their business accounts or personal accounts. I think that's probably why. And one other key difference is we're seeing a high proportion of Generation Z approaching our service for support in a way that they never have before. And when we've really started to look into that as to the reason why, it's buy now, pay later, and they're using it to buy food, yeah, to buy takeaways, and it becomes unmanageable. So we've certainly seen a big increase in that kind of demographic.

SPEAKER_03:

Because it because those buy now pay later all work nicely economically if you pay on time. Exactly. But it quickly ramps up if you don't, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

There you go, yeah, and then it starts to have that ripple effect and starts impacting on so many different things.

SPEAKER_04:

And also if they were used traditionally for what they were intended for, which was to bridge the gap if there was an emergency and a white goods like a fridge freezer broke down, and I just need to stretch that over a few months to make it manageable. But as you say, the usage of that's changed so much, hasn't it? So much.

SPEAKER_00:

And the cost-living crisis has really done that, I think it's really generated that kind of usage.

SPEAKER_04:

Years ago, we used to see a lot of people, it would be your traditional credit card, it would be a loan and overdraft. And what we are seeing is rising levels of priority debts. So perhaps. Sorry, we explained to the novice a priority debt is. So we talk about debts in two kinds of categories: non-priority debts and priority debts. Non-priority debts would be things like credit cards, overdrafts, loans, store cards, catalogue debt. And the reason why they're a non-priority is because the consequences of not paying those or not paying them on time are less severe. Whereas a priority debt would be something such as rent, mortgage arrears, council tax arrears. The consequences of not paying those could lead to homelessness. For council tax, not paying that. Worst case scenario, it could be imprisonment. For us, we're seeing rising levels of priority debts. That always needs to be tackled first.

SPEAKER_00:

And the other thing that we have seen, again, that we are really keeping a close eye on is the clients and your members that are accessing our service. They are a lot more complex than they've ever been before. So they've got lots of other needs underpinning the debt as well. So that will be the mental health that we've already mentioned, but it will also be things like compulsive behaviour, such as gambling, drugs, alcohol, it will be domestic and economic abuse. So there's lots of different things that are really impacting people's ability and awareness of really accessing support when they need it as well.

SPEAKER_03:

So as that complexity then does that mean that you have to have a broader array of skills in your team, without doubt. Without doubt.

SPEAKER_00:

100%. The vulnerable client teams that we have to really support our clients and your members with those wider support needs, they do have that additional layer of training. So they do know about the adjustments that they can make when they are working with somebody, for example, with a compulsive behaviour, with a mental health condition, they recognise those signs and they know how to adjust those conversations they're having. I mean, they range from people that have got very kind of like high-risk mental health conditions, people that have got bipolar, for example, people that are suicidal. Sadly, we probably call the emergency services every day for a client that is on the phone that we're really concerned about. We make safeguarding referrals for people that talk to us on the phone and say, I've not eaten for a week, I can't put the heating on, I'm sat here freezing.

SPEAKER_04:

To add to that, actually, the other demographic that we've seen an increase in, and this is the first time we've seen this in about 12 years, is higher earner households. So people that are on healthy wages but are no more immune to these problems than anyone else. And so mortgage rates going up, and they perhaps have taken out large mortgages and suddenly have benefited at one stage with low interests and now have come off that and it's doubled, or they've got larger houses and there's big council tax bills and they're increasing, or to heat the home. Again, I think that really shows that it's not just one particular population of the UK, it's everybody that we see.

SPEAKER_03:

I think we're seeing similar patterns where there's a there's a colour of people that you try to help, but that colour's growing within the demographics, isn't it? And more and more working, successful people are being dragged into this.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. And that's really why we do what we do in terms of really raising awareness around pay plan, what we can do, how we can support, and that we are available to everybody and to make us accessible to everybody.

SPEAKER_03:

How do we try to put things in place so that we can try and reduce the number of people that need you two?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. I guess one of the things would be urging people to access our support as soon as possible. And that's a challenge because that comes with trying to reach out to people to get them that information.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, yeah, and it's almost the stress levels as well, isn't it? Because that those first red letters coming through the door, you kind of think, I'm okay with this, I can I can ignore this, and it just keeps building, building, building. And it's only when it gets to a tipping point that suddenly they go, right, I need to talk about it.

SPEAKER_04:

And it often is to that point where the red letters come through, or it could be that there is an enforcement agent on the doorstep and someone's calling us out at that point to say, I've got someone at my house now, what can I do? And again, there will often be further things that we can do the earlier that people interact with us. So absolutely reach out as soon as possible would be one key message.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, so what can bread and butter do to help with that? What should we be doing, or how could we talk to our members?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, we've started absolutely so we've reached out to all the different hubs to ensure that people there are very much aware of PayPal and who we are, what we do. We've shared leaflets, we've shared resources, so that's a great starting point. But we want to do so much more. So the plan for next year is that we absolutely come out and meet more of the hubs, and it's amazing. I mean, I was blown away with the support on offer, absolutely blown away.

SPEAKER_03:

Fantastic. Every hub is very similar, they're like a micro community and they're fantastic at looking after their own. If you go and pack the bags with them, they will become your advocates and they will sell your services to the rest of the members that come through the door. And you could absolutely see that that happened. Yeah, it was fantastic.

SPEAKER_04:

You almost you came away thinking, how can I be part of this family? It was so empowering. And people are going there for sometimes sad reasons, but you couldn't help but come away without a smile on your face because you could see the the great good that that was doing, and it was just wonderful.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and just seeing as well when your members pick up the bags and they see the contents of those bags and the looks on their faces, like they go away, they go, Oh, it's relief. They I can I can feed my children today. You you can't buy that. That was just absolutely that was the most incredible feeling coming away from that hub.

SPEAKER_04:

I think that's one of the reasons why we were so pleased to be part of that and to join because what we did do is we went, of course, there and we put a banner up, and we and some people we could see, you know, we know some people don't want to come and ask questions about debt because they they might think, well, I don't want someone in the community to know I'm struggling, and that's absolutely understandable. And sadly, as an as a nation, we feed into that because we don't talk about money externally, we keep it very close to our chest, and we really shouldn't, but that's where we are. But what we could see was happening was people were noticing what we were there to really shine a light on, and to think, okay, pay plan, I'm going to look at that later. Or they might say, I've got someone that I'd like to take that leaflet away and give to, and that's great because that's about sharing. It might not be for them, but if we could just make the difference to one person, it's time well spent.

SPEAKER_03:

Let's just say we've got a bread and butter member and they are listening to us now and they're not sure, they don't know whether or not they're actually in a place where they need that help. What would you say to them? Relax, don't worry.

SPEAKER_04:

A lot of people feel that way, certainly that we speak to. Reach out and really just get that support to see if this is what you need. Because a lot of people are hesitant thinking, if I reach out, will someone find out? Will will my employer find out? Will my partner find out? It's completely confidential. The other thing that they'll worry about is perhaps will speaking to pay plan impact my credit score? A lot of people are very worried about credit score. People can come to us and get full advice without any impact on credit score. If you go into a debt solution, then that can improve our credit score in different ways. But getting advice and understand what your options are, no impact. So you've got nothing to lose and everything to gain. No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

And the debt advice that we offer, it's free. There is no charge, there's no monetary implications to getting advice.

SPEAKER_03:

So, that being the case, then, how do they get hold of you?

SPEAKER_00:

Lots of different ways. So they can be introduced from different partners that we work with, such as yourself, they can come through our website, they can pick the phone up, they can start getting that support over the phone, whichever they prefer.

SPEAKER_04:

To see that timescale of how long someone waits until they access debt drink, that's a real key mission for us.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, lots, lots, lots to unpack. But I think we've had a series of these episodes recently where we've talked to people that have been helping with support and services, and everybody's saying the same things but in slightly different ways. But let's go over some of it. So, Vic, this is about debt clearly. What sort of state of play do our members have? How many people are in debt? Do we know?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, we do. Well, we don't know how many people are in debt. We know how many people are borrowing just to cover everyday essentials. So for me, that's worse than just being in debt.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01:

Um because they're having to borrow to pay for food or you know, kids' school shoes or the winter coats. You know, we it's the wrong time of year, isn't it? To be you just had Christmas and then, you know, it's it's a tricky time. Um, so we know that there's a third of members that are shopping with us right now that are borrowing, even though they're shopping with us to to help pay for everyday essentials.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. So I guess they could be part of what Anthony and Emma were talking about, whether buy now, pay later, the Klana types, buying everyday food just on Klana.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. But I think it could be more than that. We know that we've got nurses that are putting food on credit cards because they can't afford a family shop unless it's going on the credit card. So some of it will be around cash flow, but I can also uh imagine that people aren't paying off that credit card at the end of every month. So the level of debt is building. And what do you do? Do you do you not live or do you get into a bit of debt?

SPEAKER_03:

So this is something we've discussed before, but it's a valid topic, isn't it, to say one of the things that we always find is what do you do? So we've talked to pay plans, stop loan sharks, money matters, uh and a bunch of others, and everybody's saying the same thing about this. It's just like there isn't an answer to people that if they went through an affordability test would fail it, they still need money. So where can we go from there? Because that is what's happening. The klarantypes are are doing it because it's easy, but not only because it's easy, but it's just very accessible. People that are taking money from doorstep lenders are taking it because it's easily accessible exactly when they need it. It's a growing problem.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and there's you know, there isn't a right answer, is there? There's it's it's so complicated for many people, and I don't think anybody understands the scale of how much people are in debt. We've been saying this for ages, haven't we? That the government will report on debt that's like, you know, we've heard people talk about the priority debt, you know, are people reporting on priority debt, but then not reporting on the other stuff?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, so who understands the scale of like Britain's real finance? You know, we've got a little slice of it, but I don't think anybody anybody really knows.

SPEAKER_03:

I don't think so either. Uh and one thing's for sure, we're not overestimating it.

SPEAKER_01:

No, so like let me lead you on to another, yeah, another kind of link to this. So I was also looking from our latest survey, what income people are spending on food um per month, which is one of the questions that we ask. So this isn't asking people about how much you are earning or how much you indebt. It's like, okay, so what's your food budget? How much do you have to spend? And when we look at up to£100, 60% of our members only have up to£100 to spend. Now that's not taken into account family size. So you could argue, well, if you're one person and you've got that, then it's not that bad. But we know that our average household size is 2.73 people. So if you were dividing that, it suddenly gets really tight for how much you got to spend on food.

SPEAKER_03:

It does.

SPEAKER_01:

And if you want to feed your kids well and feed yourself well, it's just out of reach for everybody.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, do the math is just over a quid a day.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you're the accountant, so you can do the month of the math. I know. But it you know, that's why people have already you know, it I think it's illustrative to say, you know, people will go, really? You've got a third of people borrowing just to just to get by on the on the daily stuff. And then when you kind of put that, it provides the context to that, doesn't it? It makes that it makes that feed more believable. Because that's just not possible, I don't think.

SPEAKER_03:

No, I I don't think it is. I'm going to extrapolate it a little bit as well and talk about the um people that have more than a hundred quid. But to say that cohort of people is growing. There's a more and more people that would have been considered safe, secure, comfortable, whatever you want to describe it as, that are absolutely being dragged into food insecurity. And I don't know, would you class it as poverty if they're food insecure? That's a really difficult question when they're homeowners that have got a mortgage and they've got a full-time job. Absolutely. It's tricky, right? Because everyone thinks they're going to be successful and everybody everybody expects them just to get by. And possibly, I don't know, but just speculating whether or not they have actually more stigma about it because they should be able to see that they can stand on their own two feet a lot easier than most potentially.

SPEAKER_01:

Um I've been doing some nerding today because you know that I uh I like a bit of this.

SPEAKER_03:

Good nerding prep. I like this.

SPEAKER_01:

So um, well, it was actually because on my way into work, I'd heard that Joseph Roundtree had released a new report around poverty. So I thought I'd check it out, given that we were going to be chatting. I thought it was timely. And I've not done the full nerd, but they're talking about kind of levels of poverty and absolute poverty. And there was one bit that I read that if people are in poverty, if they need two of these things, so forget the forget the income. Because I wanted to come on here and say, well, Joseph Roundtree say if you're if you've only got this much, it's that. And I haven't got to that point, which is a bit sad. But they were saying, you know, if you're struggling to feed yourself or you're struggling to put the heating on and things like that, then that's just a sign of poverty. And I think more and more the work that I do in the survey results that we got this time are telling me that there isn't one description, you know, like I'm not okay today and in crisis tomorrow. It's a slippery scale, and I don't know what's gonna tip me over the edge.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And nobody does. So there's no one really out there that can be, you know, big brother isn't watching all of these households going, oh, tomorrow they'll be in crisis, because no one's got that crystal ball, and that makes it really tricky for lots of support services to be able to know when the right time to intervene is, and crisis support just comes too late for people when all household coping is out of the window.

SPEAKER_03:

Doesn't it also mean that government actually are gonna really struggle as well? Because if you can't find a data set to measure it by, how on earth do you know? So I I understand the uh how JRF are basically saying if that there's these criteria and if you meet two of them, you're in poverty. But how do you measure that? Because people like government are gonna need some way of being able to apply some sort of rule to it to be able to say if this happens, then you can get support.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, this is kind of the whole thing about traditionally supports being a crisis intervention and it just comes too late. And we need to be talking about prevention and stabilising families kind of before they get to that, and not trying to anticipate when they've done the race to the bottom, but going, let's not get you to the bottom. JRF, just to be really clear, also do talk about less than 60% of median household income means that you're in deep poverty. Well, these are just big words and not really helpful for us or any of our members to go, oh, if you've got£2.50, then you're not okay, which we kind of all know, but it would be helpful to have some figures, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_03:

It would.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Do you want some quotes?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, always.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So uh one of our members in Durham told us that bread and butter is literally the only reason they've managed to start tackling debt without starving their family.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

People are trying new foods without paying debt off. Um and then there's one here, uh, again from the North East, actually from Hartlepool, saying, Help me budget and repay some of my debt, giving me the opportunity to share my worries with people in a similar position, which I think kind of leads to why the services really work in our hubs, because it's okay to say, actually, I could do with some help.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because you know that the person sat next to you is in exactly the same boat and could also do with some help. And there's also there's like almost safety in numbers.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, definitely. So can I throw a provocative cash first question at you?

SPEAKER_01:

Of course.

SPEAKER_03:

Because people like PayPlan and all the other services that we have come into our hubs and do fantastic work. Their funding won't come from a cash-first policy. No. And I would see it's why we kind of look at a cash plus argument, right? Because you've got to have the ecosystem that goes with the cash because cash alone won't do it. Agree. Yeah, I was gonna ask you a question about it. So I I was gonna say to you, what is it about cash first that potentially then means that well, how would somebody that was sat there with cash first say that services would actually be funded or whether they're needed?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so let me put my thinking cap on. No. Um, so I think there's two things. One is that we've already got a whole load of people that are already in debt that cannot make ends meet and are now repaying that debt and trying to make ends meet. And they've got, they've already been skipping meals, they've already the kids have already got a school uniform that's a you know a bit small, or they're having to get the two big school uniform to last them a year or or whatever. So they're already living in that, and then there needs to be more of a package of support that's more holistic and is not just about money to help those people build the self-esteem, feel like they're not on their own, feel like they don't have to be ashamed, all of that kind of stuff. Then you've got people that maybe are getting to the point where they might need some cash and they're not yet in this situation, and then you could argue that giving them some cash first might really work.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Interestingly, I was talking to somebody today and they were saying that their daughter had started going to college and it was 135 quid a quarter to send their daughter on the college bus.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

And those quarters were really tight months. But I can't not let my daughter go to the right college that's going to do them the best for their education. So, you know, maybe 20 quid on those 135 things, would that help? But it's not making the bus journey go away, is it?

SPEAKER_02:

No.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think the thing with cash first is it's like a one-off help. And I don't think people recognise this. It's not actually more benefits, more money, a better universal credit system. It's just, all right, you're in crisis, here's 20 quid. But we're not talking about people in crisis, we're talking about people that on a daily basis, forever, cannot make ends meet. So for me, cash first has a place for crisis, but it's so complex. And because it's a really easy thing for people to just go cash first, and everybody thinks they understand it, it massively misses the point. And it's easy, but it's not, is it?

SPEAKER_03:

No, it's not, it's not. You're following the same philosophy of being in the preventative space because if we can get to people and give them the right advice and the right support early, it prevents crisis. And most of the cash first argument is in within crisis, would you say?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I think it doesn't help people get out of crisis either.

SPEAKER_03:

It eases the immediate pressure.

SPEAKER_01:

There's a place for it in terms of right, Mark, you've you can't make ends meet, you can't feed the family. You're gonna go to a food bank or the council, and they could say, Here's a package of food, but that's not fixed your problem. It's fixed your problem for four days. So there's got to be a broader package of support around people that is more about referrals into food clubs, holistic support, you know, the debt services, the whatever it is that's causing you the problem to help it work. And I think we're unique, like we're in the community, we chat to our members. There's lots of food clubs that don't see the people side of it, and that gives us a unique insight, I think, to understand how complex it is.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Okay, let me loop you back around to pay plan.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I think one of the things that I like that they do is re-prioritize everything because when you're prioritizing with a low-income home, you kind of go, Well, my my priority debts need to come first. So my rent and my council tax or my mortgage and my council tax need to be paid before anything because I don't want to lose my house. And then my energy, so I don't get cut off, and then it's got any debts, so I avoid the bailiffs.

SPEAKER_01:

It's so not it's so not like that though, is it? No, it's it's Rob Peter to pay Paul. It's like I'm gonna skip a month on the rent. The council can wait three months because they'll be slow in coming round. Sorry, councils.

SPEAKER_03:

That is the theory and that is the pathway, but actually, the truth of every day you were saying, Vic.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, just too complicated. And it takes me back to Jackie and Sam when they were kind of going, oh, and we've got this cash flow within the family. Yeah, so the lecky are like we're borrowing off one to pay the other for the lecky. And anybody that thinks that there's a hierarchy to debts is I I think on a different planet.

SPEAKER_03:

No, I know I I I I think the hierarchy actually comes from whoever is threatening the most at that given point.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, or you know, what the kids need. Yeah, different people shouting from different places. And, you know, if it's a letter in a brown envelope, like honestly, who opens those anymore? I wouldn't. I'm scared of posts. I only get bad posts. We know that people have the drawer where they ram in all the letters, so they don't even really know who's shouting at them.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I think we've got to say huge thanks again to people like PayPlan coming along. Let me tell you how to get in touch with PayPlan. So it is payplan.com, and if you go to their contact page, that's where the link is for WhatsApp, so that you can WhatsApp them, or their phone number is a free phone, phone number 0800-316-1833. And massive thanks to Anthony and Emma.

SPEAKER_01:

So if you'd like to know more about the bread and butter thing and what we get up to, you can find us at TeamT BBT on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, LinkedIn, or online at breadandbutterthing.org.

SPEAKER_03:

And if you have any feedback or thoughts on the podcast or you'd like to come in on an attack, just drop us an email at podcast at breadandbutterthing.org.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and we say lastly every week, but it's not lastly. Really importantly, really importantly, we're always open to new members at all of our hubs. If you or someone you know would benefit from our affordable food scheme, you can find your nearest hub on the Become a Member page of the website.

SPEAKER_03:

And please do all those things that podcasts ask you to do. Like us, subscribe to us, leave us a review, share us with your friends, chat about us on social, but just get my numbers up. Come on, guys, share us.

SPEAKER_01:

See you next time.

SPEAKER_03:

See you next time. Bye.

Head Shot

Mark Game

Host
Head Shot

Vic Harper

Host