The L&D Hypocratic Oath, and a Higher Standard with Cara North

In this episode, I chat with Cara North about her move into learning consultancy and how we, as an industry, need to hold ourselves to higher standards.

We also discuss the way people are joining the industry today and what she does to drive her continual development. Finally, we discuss L&D's role in supporting EDI initiatives in the workplace.

You can see more from Cara using the links below:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caranorth11/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/caranorth11
The Learning Camel: https://thelearningcamel.com/

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Transcript

00:00:00:02 - 00:00:28:28
Tom McDowall
This is the Ideas podcast, the show where learning and development professionals discuss ideas over a nice cup of tea morning. Other beverages may be consumed. In this episode, I chat with Karen Orth about her recent move into the world of consulting and how we as instructional designers and learning professionals can support EDI movements in the workplace. Welcome to this episode of The Ideas podcast.

00:00:29:05 - 00:00:46:06
Tom McDowall
Thank you for joining us today. We have we have a guest on the show that I've wanted to have on the show for a very long time. But as you probably know, she's just a little bit busy. She does just a couple of things in our industry at any given time by which of course, I mean a couple of couple of dozen things at the same time in our industry.

00:00:46:13 - 00:01:08:11
Tom McDowall
So joining us today, we have Karen North, chief learning consultant and founder of the Learning Camel, which is possibly my favorite name for a learning consultancy ever. Of course, you will know who she is for far more than you know who I am. You're probably tuning in because her name's on the episode, not because you've listened to the show before.

00:01:08:23 - 00:01:13:06
Tom McDowall
But without further ado, I will hand over for a proper introduction. Karen, over to you.

00:01:13:10 - 00:01:53:17
Cara North
Oh, well, hi, Tom. And hello, everybody. My name is Karen North, like you said. And I really hate introducing myself, so I'll just kind of keep it short and sweet. I've been doing learning and development for pretty much my entire professional career. I've worked in corporate higher education, and then I just recently made the switch to full time consultant, and it's been a fun ride so far and I really love everything, learning and development of similar changes over my time and I really enjoy also trying to give back to the community as much as I can because I am a firm believer in paying it forward and I certainly wouldn't be where I am today

00:01:53:17 - 00:02:00:05
Cara North
without the help of others. And so and in a place where I can help other people. So I believe in paying it forward.

00:02:01:14 - 00:02:20:20
Tom McDowall
Awesome. Thank you for that. And that's very, very a modest introduction that you're a lot more than just paying forward what you've got. I think because there's a lot of us in the industry that we're kind of figuring out what we were going to do and going, Oh yeah, this person here, I shall follow them. So, you know, I think on behalf of well, thank you for that.

00:02:21:11 - 00:02:26:18
Tom McDowall
But the real reason everyone tunes in. What are you drinking during our conversation today?

00:02:26:22 - 00:02:49:02
Cara North
Oh, great question. I actually just finished a beverage before we came on, so I am addicted to the hint water and it is a water that has no sugar in it, but it's flavored. And my favorite flavor of water is watermelon. And I bought it by the case load. In fact, there's probably, I'd say maybe 24 bottles or so of it in my fridge.

00:02:49:02 - 00:03:01:23
Cara North
Currently, I drink it a lot of it throughout the day, but I'm highly addicted to it. Everybody that I meet, I try to push it on them because I believe in it that much and a couple of my friends are now addicted to it.

00:03:03:07 - 00:03:31:29
Tom McDowall
I see single handedly propping up that company. They're so like it. Well, it's the evening here, so. And it's warm. So I have gone for a lovely gin and tonic, which I'm not addicted to. You can't say that on the Internet, people get very upset. So yes. But it is very nice. It's enjoyable of an evening. Um so the move into a learning consultancy, it's, I think everyone would agree it's, it's a big move.

00:03:31:29 - 00:03:55:27
Tom McDowall
Right, um, even just from the going, from being an employee to being entirely responsible for yours and potentially other people's income, but also in what the role is. So I guess where I'd like to start is when you look at the industry right now and when you look at consulting, what's the what's the big play? What do you want to see happening or what are you going to make happen?

00:03:55:27 - 00:03:56:25
Tom McDowall
Maybe is the answer.

00:03:57:01 - 00:04:22:03
Cara North
Oh, gosh. Well, I don't want to give away too many secrets. I'm kidding. So it's interesting. I actually and I'm not saying this is a flex, but truly, I was excited to talk with Verizon and AT&T to talk to Will Hunter recently. And we had a pretty lovely chat about just kind of everything consulting. And there was one thing that the two of us kind of agreed on and something that I'd really like to see shift in the consultant market.

00:04:22:10 - 00:04:47:24
Cara North
And that's kind of like almost like a Hippocratic oath of do no harm. So for example, I recently had a client in a discovery meeting with a potential client. They were explaining to me a situation and it had something to do with training around dietary restrictions in a health care setting because unfortunately, what happened was someone had given a patient a wrong food.

00:04:48:06 - 00:05:11:14
Cara North
So this person was not supposed to have a banana and this person was given a banana. And it made a pretty significant side effect for that patient. And they found me somehow and said, hey, we need to have dietary training. And the first thing out of my mouth was, Well, why do you think this is a problem? And so the person told me the story about about the banana.

00:05:11:14 - 00:05:31:26
Cara North
And my immediate question was, well, so what happened? Why did it happen? And they just looked at me. They're like, you know, I don't know. Like so-and-so told me that we need training and to find somebody to make it. And so that's why I'm contacting you. So I think that, you know, could I have taken that person's money and built something and pushed it out?

00:05:31:26 - 00:05:55:07
Cara North
Absolutely. But I just think that we really need to, as a profession, hold ourselves to higher standards and then just content dumps. And, you know, maybe that's not going to make me a lot of money, but I'll sure sleep better at night. But I think that I've seen a lot of people talk about building like articulate rises or building videos or whatever.

00:05:55:07 - 00:06:06:24
Cara North
But at the end of the day, Tom, and I know you're also kind of the school of thought as well, like if it's not really solving a problem, what's the point now?

00:06:06:24 - 00:06:30:03
Tom McDowall
I couldn't agree more. I was I kind of broadened it when I made the I made the statement far less eloquently recently where I said, if your course contains the thing, oh, it's just an awareness piece, you shouldn't be making the bloody thing. That's yeah, that's very why I'm not that consultancy and why you're going to do very well you word it that way and I put it that way.

00:06:30:10 - 00:06:58:28
Tom McDowall
But yeah, I think it's, it's interesting that that comes across as a not the usual idea and a bit concerning really isn't it. Because you have to wonder that means there are a lot of people either unaware of or perfectly comfortable creating content that doesn't do anything and billing for it. Yeah, which is a slightly uncomfortable feeling for our industry.

00:06:59:02 - 00:07:19:13
Cara North
It is. And you know, I can also share another client of mine is doing something kind of the complete opposite. So another, I think, emerging market that I'm finding is, you know, there are a lot of professions here in the United States, I'd venture to say probably in the UK as well, Tom, that a lot of people are aging out of the profession.

00:07:19:13 - 00:07:59:26
Cara North
So, for example, there is a profession that I'm getting ready to support in some some client work around assistive technology. So meaning, you know, setting people appropriately for wheelchairs, you know, retrofitting like vehicles and really setting people up for success to live as independent lives as possible. And what you found is much like the learning development space, a lot of these practitioners fell into it like they were retired nurses or had a loved one that had maybe experienced some kind of declining health or had some significant trauma in their life to make it to where they need assistive technology in order to live their lives as as much as they can.

00:08:00:03 - 00:08:19:17
Cara North
So I found it fascinating that they they said, you know, people don't know what we do. And I was like, well, I know what that feels like. I can completely empathize with that. So what they're looking to do is kind of build out like these awareness courses about, you know, what their profession is and potentially get it accredited.

00:08:19:17 - 00:08:45:22
Cara North
And some of the work that I've done in a past life was excuse being around accreditation when I worked in higher education. So I was like excited about doing about doing that because, you know, maybe not everything asked to solve a problem. But to your point about the awareness courses, this to me is an awareness course I can get behind because we're educating people about potential perfection and it's something that I don't see anyone talking about.

00:08:45:22 - 00:09:04:25
Cara North
Like all I see is like, Oh, I want to be a designer or I want to be an instructional designer, I want to be a technical writer or a marketer. But, you know, I think that there's a lot of value in serving people and helping people. And so this kind of profession might be the right fit for somebody, but they might not know that it's out there.

00:09:04:25 - 00:09:13:04
Cara North
So if I can help amplify this and again, make more good in the world and help people, what's better than that now?

00:09:13:09 - 00:09:44:17
Tom McDowall
I think that that is a really interesting kind of area because I think Andy has one of those is were learning is one of those rare things that has just as much, if not more value outside of the workplace where like the one you know, quote unquote, corporate function. That is actually true of, you know, as important as your product may be outside of what your business does, chances are it doesn't revolutionize many people's lives.

00:09:44:25 - 00:10:07:13
Tom McDowall
But I think stuff that is has such a potential. It's funny you mention the kind of everyone wants to be these great zones. Everyone wants to be an instructional designer to going into R&D. It's like it's the one job that exists in the entire space when, as we all know, there are this huge spectrum of other jobs, some of which suit very different kinds of people.

00:10:07:13 - 00:10:21:13
Tom McDowall
And I think it's interest to find another industry like that, but that wants to do something about it and that simultaneously, Andy seems to not want to do anything about it. It's kind of at least en masse, I think.

00:10:21:18 - 00:10:49:02
Cara North
Yeah, I'm trying to remember. I think it was Tracy Cantu who posted something a couple months back and I reshared it was brilliant. Just the broad scope of learning and development. You could be a learning technology architect or an alum as administrator or, you know, somebody that just exclusively does onboarding or somebody that maybe does employee success or, you know, there's this just a wide, vast net of what encompasses.

00:10:49:02 - 00:11:18:21
Cara North
Elon, do you to your point, Tom, beyond an instructional designer that often needs good people, often pays pretty well and often are maybe underappreciated and maybe not, I'll say the fanciest or most, I guess flamboyant out there. Maybe you might not see the work like you would with an instructional designer, e-learning developer, but still critical pieces of a good functioning, mature learning and development function and organizations.

00:11:19:25 - 00:11:47:14
Tom McDowall
And I think part of really good development into any other role as well. Like I was saying someone earlier today, I'm so grateful for my time as a training facilitator, as someone who now creates the content, like I feel like I would not be anywhere near as good as what I do now, just objectively if I hadn't spent that time, stood in front of rooms of people trying to train them and finding, well, this doesn't work, even though in theory it should.

00:11:48:26 - 00:12:05:16
Tom McDowall
You know, I think, though, those that learning can so easily be lost when we kind of jump straight into a role, I guess it's the same true in the kind of the assistance technology world. If someone just finds himself in that role with no understanding of the breadth of it, they're going to be lost. So that sounds like an awesome projects.

00:12:06:01 - 00:12:24:04
Cara North
Yeah, absolutely. And to that point, you know, back in the Stone Age when I worked at Amazon, you know, my role as an instructional designer, there was I helped manage the learning management system. And I don't know about you so often I find people just kind of saying, Well, I don't ever want to touch the learning management system issue.

00:12:24:11 - 00:12:53:05
Cara North
But having that knowledge and knowing that in back in the day we actually used Moodle, if you can believe that, that that was a beast too. And Minister and having that experience, like you said, Tom has really helped to kind of make me a more well-rounded professional. And so I think oftentimes, you know, especially, I think new folks looking to transition into a learning development role, it's like they're scared to try something different because they just have these blinders on.

00:12:53:05 - 00:13:13:13
Cara North
Looking only at instructional design background, like some of these other roles really can set you up for success, especially if you're looking to transition to learning leadership. Because learning leadership, like you have to kind of know a little bit about what everybody is doing. Okay, you back that up, you should know a little bit about what everyone is doing.

00:13:13:13 - 00:13:33:13
Cara North
I wouldn't say that all learning and development leaders do do know that, but I feel like that's what made me a good leader in the positions that I was in, because I did know a little bit about everything. And even bonus, if someone was out like let's say the L.A. administrator was out for a week, guess what? I could pop in and get things done if I had to.

00:13:33:25 - 00:13:48:12
Cara North
Probably not as efficiently as they do because they're in it every day. But I mean, you know, I believe, you know, leaders step in when things need to be done. And, you know, I'm not going to put my head in the sand like an all star, like, oh, sorry, they're out on vacation. Can't do anything for a week.

00:13:48:12 - 00:13:57:06
Cara North
Shucks, really? Not that big of a deal, right? Yeah, that's fun to me as can be a poor reflection on you. And it's also going to make the team look bad. So why would you want to do that?

00:13:58:11 - 00:14:16:27
Tom McDowall
Yeah, I think even outside of that, being able to empathize with what everyone on your team does and say, look, to some extent I get it. You do it every day and thankfully I don't anymore. Maybe, but you know, I can at least say like, you know what? I dealt with something similar. Let's even if it's just a case of yep.

00:14:17:00 - 00:14:52:17
Tom McDowall
Have have a that's absolutely fine. It really helps that in the long term anyway I find relating with team members. So having gone into this exciting world of, of consulting, how do you I guess see the next, I don't know, three, four years of the L.A. world because it's it feels like we've just gone through the most bizarre couple of years I've ever had working in the industry where was super important.

00:14:52:17 - 00:15:11:02
Tom McDowall
And then we're not doing the job and then we're doing a great job and then everything's going digital and now nothing's working. And no one understands why, except everyone does understand why. We just don't want to say out loud. And it feels like we're approaching something more like a normal working world right now. But what next, I guess, is the question.

00:15:11:23 - 00:15:30:10
Cara North
I wish I had a crystal ball, but unfortunately I know. Well, I mean, I think in a perfect world, I would hope that we could do a more blended learning experiences. I do think that there's a value to a face to face or a virtual instructor alone. I am not of the school of thought that that is dead.

00:15:30:17 - 00:15:47:01
Cara North
I get so mad when I hear people say that that's dead. I think it certainly has a place in the learning development ecosystem and I think that there are certain tasks and things that really benefit from that modality versus e-learning. When I think of it, you learn. Just think of it as like a delivery method more than anything, right?

00:15:47:01 - 00:16:23:22
Cara North
I mean, it is kind of a convenience thing. But I'll tell you one thing I'm really concerned about and I cry about this earlier is I just find that with the influx of people looking to do this work, there is such an emphasis on the building and the final product, and I worry about us being very transactional. I think some people are already there and in my mind when we're transactional, we don't have value back to our organizations and then we are prime for the pump or layoffs or job cuts or whatever that looks like.

00:16:23:22 - 00:16:46:27
Cara North
So really being able to be what I think, Tom, a business partner and really, you know, acting on those consultant jobs to really focus on the value that we can give in, you know, having kind of this unbiased opinion about what's going on in our organizations, I think often, you know, I see some job postings saying you must be a subject matter expert in this before you train on it.

00:16:47:06 - 00:17:08:25
Cara North
I completely disagree with that. And here's why. A lot of times experts are just so inundated and all the things that they do is automatic. It's really hard for them to step back and really understand the nuances and minutia of what they actually do on a day to day. I think that is the benefit of a good instructional designer is they keep asking the question why and how and explain this to me.

00:17:09:02 - 00:17:29:16
Cara North
And that is really the value that we bring to these situations. But when we have people like writing out all of our content for us, I'll start asking questions and we just again, this copy and paste model of, oh, look, I've put in an E learning authoring tool, I'll work. It's got jazz hands that I'll look at. So cute, that's where we get into trouble.

00:17:29:16 - 00:17:52:13
Cara North
And I'm very, very afraid of what the future holds if we don't get out of that mindset. I'm seeing way too much of it on social media, and I don't think social media really reflects what's going on in organizations sometimes. But, you know, I do know that there are leaders of companies on social media that are watching. They're looking at what people are putting out there.

00:17:52:13 - 00:18:07:20
Cara North
And I think as much as we can fight kind of that shiny chrome syndrome of of everything, I think the better we're going to be. But, you know, I am very, very concerned about the transactional piece that I keep seeing.

00:18:07:20 - 00:18:34:06
Tom McDowall
That it's it's a really timely thing to consider. I mean, actually, yesterday I, I was on one of the LDA meetings with Quinn and Ruth Clarke was there and they were talking about getting information from Assamese and they touched on this idea that about 70% of an SMS knowledge is unconscious. They're not going to tell you it unless you dig for it.

00:18:35:10 - 00:18:58:10
Tom McDowall
I just really think that that is what an instruction designer is for. It's got nothing to do with, as you say, look what I can do in storyline or hold my magnificent portfolio. But I spent six months creating but didn't actually deploy any of. So there were no results to talk about. It's a it's interesting. I only say this because I'm a little I'm a little bit better on recruiting at the minute and I'm running into this problem.

00:18:59:27 - 00:19:22:19
Tom McDowall
And it is a challenge. And I think that although social media doesn't it doesn't mirror the real world, of course it doesn't. But it does heavily impact people new to the industry because that is where they're turning for their information, because there is, I think, a lack of cohesion in the what I would consider to be the correct messaging.

00:19:22:28 - 00:19:29:07
Tom McDowall
Like if you want to become a great instructional designer or a great L.A. practitioner, where do you go?

00:19:31:03 - 00:19:34:15
Cara North
I don't think you learn social media. Yeah, I said that.

00:19:35:06 - 00:19:58:10
Tom McDowall
This is it. But if you start searching on the Internet, you're going to find a lot of social media stuff before you find the real before you get to the you need to read some books. And that doesn't sound very exciting, is it, compared to watch this video and take this online course and this kind of thing? It's very it's and it's it's very difficult, I think, getting into the industry now to make the right choice.

00:19:58:24 - 00:20:21:19
Cara North
It is there's a lot of noise out there and it breaks my heart every time I hear someone say, I don't I've never heard of Michael Allen before. I'm like, what? Like, you know? So I always try to at least once a month, if not more, try to elevate some of what I call the OGs of the industry, because I do worry about exactly what you thought of all all the noise.

00:20:21:19 - 00:20:44:15
Cara North
And there's a lot of, I'll say, search engine optimization, trickery going on to really steer that message. And I think it's really sad. And, you know, I've definitely been an outspoken critic of it, for better or for worse. And I've made some enemies by being in that way. But I'll say it here, and I've said it before I was here before the idea academies and I'll be your doctor.

00:20:44:15 - 00:21:05:11
Cara North
So we'll see what happens with that. But, you know, my way of combating it is, you know, I've started a partner with higher education, so I dreamt up Boise State University. And I'm only obviously one person. But, you know, one thing that I am doing, I'm teaching a storyboarding and scenario class is I'm trying to make it as practical as possible.

00:21:05:11 - 00:21:25:04
Cara North
So good news is we're actually using text of Ruth Clark, which is incredible. But then cross walking that amazing and like learning theory and research to what it looks like applied on the job. And I think that that's really critical to your point about recruiting and looking for talent. And I had a tough time in my last role.

00:21:25:04 - 00:21:52:21
Cara North
I was trying to fill a position as well in just basic things such as, you know, one big red flag I look for is in your resume and you say you can do all this amazing stuff. And I don't see anything other than your portfolio. That's a problem. If you have a portfolio and it only shows me the end product and I have no information about, like you said, time about how it was evaluated, struggles, challenges, etc..

00:21:53:01 - 00:22:17:02
Cara North
That's a problem. One question that really was my kind of end all be all in my last round of interviews. The question that I asked is, I don't believe in giving people assignments on the job for job interviews because I have equity issue with that. I don't know what people have going on outside of applying for jobs. If you're like me, your life is pretty chaotic outside of your your day to day.

00:22:17:02 - 00:22:39:25
Cara North
And the last thing I want to do is take someone's time and talent away from their family and friends when they may or may not get a job. And second, I think that it's automatically biased to people that maybe have better support systems and also have access to learning technologies, because a lot of learning and managers sadly are having shiny Crowe syndrome.

00:22:39:25 - 00:22:59:05
Cara North
And if you make something pretty, they're like, Oh, they're an amazing instructional designer, but maybe you have your own license of some of these tools. But, you know, unfortunately, you might miss out on a candidate that didn't have that time to do that. So one thing that I do when I interview is I actually in the middle of the interview, turn it over to them and say, I want you to share your screen.

00:22:59:14 - 00:23:26:21
Cara North
I want you to pick a portfolio entry that you have for me. Then I want you to talk me through your design process. So it's like they're doing a director's cut of it and I'll ask questions. They're all about, Hey, why did you do that? Or, you know, what were your thoughts behind that? And I can tell very quickly if they actually have what I call solid design thinking or like a solid framework of building versus if it's a template or not a template said something one time that made me laugh.

00:23:26:21 - 00:23:37:12
Cara North
You said one time I was interviewing somebody that actually used one of his templates on their portfolio, which I thought was hilarious.

00:23:37:12 - 00:23:37:19
Tom McDowall
Oh.

00:23:38:12 - 00:23:38:25
Cara North
Yeah.

00:23:39:05 - 00:24:01:12
Tom McDowall
That's I mean, as as slip ups go, like if you're going to do it, at least keep track of who you've nicked your work from so you don't go to them for an interview. I mean, go look. So funnily enough, this, this is entirely non allergy related. I made the same argument to my wife this afternoon. She was watching one of those like ghost hunting shows.

00:24:01:12 - 00:24:21:27
Tom McDowall
When they go into an old vendor, it's a shadow. There's something coming through on the talking box and it's like they're not even good com people. Like they could be social and pretend to be scientific. No, they're just extreme as a shadow due to this. Oh, everything's the most extreme possible story. It could be. It's like you're going to lie to people, at least make it believable.

00:24:22:05 - 00:24:26:20
Tom McDowall
You know, you're going to spin a story, make it a good and yeah.

00:24:26:20 - 00:24:47:26
Cara North
Another example of I, I struggle with sleeping at night. My mind is women's minds at race all the time. So at times I'll listen to like people reading Reddit posts or something like that. But one thing that I love to watch when I fall asleep is the curse of Oak Island. It's on the discovery Channel, and it's about those these two brothers that are trying to find this hidden treasure.

00:24:47:27 - 00:24:53:27
Cara North
I think that's part of Canada, like some province of Canada or Ireland or something. And the thing to do with the.

00:24:53:27 - 00:24:54:25
Tom McDowall
Templars, isn't it?

00:24:55:05 - 00:25:10:17
Cara North
I think maybe, maybe. But this went on for like three or four seasons and it drives my husband bananas. He's a why are you why you know that? I mean, everyone is like, it's good to just listen to it, but yeah, same thing.

00:25:11:17 - 00:25:24:29
Tom McDowall
But the sad thing is you can take that sentiment and apply it to an awful lot of learning content out there. Great to fall asleep, to just leave on repeat in the background. It'll keep going. You'll end up with like 16 badges to put on your LinkedIn profile at the end. It'll be great and you'll get to sleep.

00:25:26:11 - 00:25:50:00
Tom McDowall
So yeah, it's a, it's a funny space regarding that. Isn't that so, so springy swinging round into that world as well. So so you do share you share a lot with the industry and you've only touched right at the start on kind of why you do that in terms of giving back. But we kind of discussing how difficult it is to find the right resources.

00:25:50:00 - 00:25:58:07
Tom McDowall
So how do you go about your kind of personal development? Where do you find your resources to continue growing and where did you find them when you were starting out?

00:25:58:21 - 00:26:26:20
Cara North
Oh, great question. So I was also pretty fortunate when I moved to Columbus, Ohio, where I live now. I met this man maker named Mike Taylor. And Mike Taylor is also a big person in the curation space and he is very giving with his time. And he shared with me kind of his own personal management strategy. And I think he also leaned into that hierarchy.

00:26:26:21 - 00:26:47:24
Cara North
I'm trying to remember the gentleman's name that kind of has this framework, but essentially mine is pretty simple. I love to read. So like as soon as I wake up in the morning, I usually spend at least an hour reading every morning and I use this tool called feebly that is an aggregator that brings in all these different resources on different topics.

00:26:47:24 - 00:27:11:02
Cara North
So there's different blogs I like to read. I'm really like different newsletters, that kind of stuff. But essentially this is my work. Most asked if I read something, I was like, Hmm, that's valuable. I share it. That's it. So it's something that I'm like, This is valuable. Or I think this this can help me in some way. I can share it.

00:27:11:02 - 00:27:37:12
Cara North
So I use a tool called Buffer and I share the link it sends it to my buffer. In my buffer will automatically post it for me throughout the day. So I'll post on my LinkedIn, set it, forget it. I get a lot of questions like, Are you on LinkedIn all the time? No, I'm not actually. I'm not even checking my direct messages anymore because I just got so overwhelmed by them because there were so many unions that like, I would just look up and it would be 1:00 at night and I'm like, I haven't ate dinner.

00:27:37:12 - 00:27:57:26
Cara North
Like I've been answering machine messages all night. Like, this is not this is not healthy. And for a lot not to say that I don't care about helping people, but I'm taking time away from my family, too. And it's like a cost benefit analysis. Probably not the best, right? So usually I'll get like different links. And then there's another tool that is called refinement.

00:27:57:26 - 00:28:17:10
Cara North
They're really like that. You can type in different topics that you like and then it will aggregate and bring in different things that you may like. And I really like that as well. And as easy as just five different links, I am on the morning brew bandwagon. I know a lot of people talked about that because now they have like an emerging tech and h.r.

00:28:17:10 - 00:28:52:20
Cara North
Version of it. That's pretty fascinating. So I'll I'll subscribe to that. Tim Ferriss has a five bullet Friday that I read, but any other kind of, I'd say worrying development newsletters from different people. I don't really subscribe to those or anything, but yeah, that's pretty much my process. And then usually that's something really powerful. So like for example, one of my favorite articles I ever read was Breaking Down Why Level one one in the Super Mario Brothers is like the perfect learning experience because it was the tutorial level but didn't tell you it was a tutorial level.

00:28:52:20 - 00:29:14:00
Cara North
Right? And I love that so much. So I will reach share that one specifically once a quarter book times. I usually get new people following me and things. And selfishly, it's also something I like to reread multiple times. So it's just a really good reminder to just get out of your head and keep it as simple and clean as possible.

00:29:14:00 - 00:29:36:00
Tom McDowall
That's awesome. I think it's yeah, it's I kind of touched on before how quite often when I say if you all you read people almost seem aghast that that is that people could primarily learn from reading the written words in 2022. Similarly there are surely you must consume a lot more podcasts and videos and online courses than you do read.

00:29:36:12 - 00:29:57:17
Tom McDowall
And I don't know. I, I'm not sure what your reasoning behind it is, but I just say this recording a podcast, I struggle to absorb something and analyze it as deeply as I would if it was written down, if I'm watching or listening to it, which maybe says something about how we should be designing certain types of learning as well.

00:29:57:25 - 00:30:18:20
Tom McDowall
But I know certainly for me, if it's something I don't know, certainly if it's something that kind of touches into the world of kind of, oh, we're going to we're going to talk about some kind of science here. I kind of want that written down because I want to scribble on it and I like to and margin comment it and that kind of thing is why I still have a printer, let's put it that way, that sees regular daily use.

00:30:18:20 - 00:30:21:09
Tom McDowall
I'm just doing my bit to destroy the planet, that.

00:30:23:03 - 00:30:45:04
Cara North
Is, I don't know about you, but I just get tired of being in front of my computer with a screen. You know, because I will just get in the flow and I'm just like, Oh my goodness, it's the end of the day. I need to actually get up, get up and move. So yeah, usually I just like I just like to read by, you know, if I'm consuming kind of media or whatever, it's usually like I've transitioned into video game brain.

00:30:45:10 - 00:31:14:16
Cara North
I, I play video games every day and make time for video games every day, even if it's 30 minutes just because I want to decompress. But to I've gotten so many amazing design ideas from just playing video games, even just like through the user experience or, you know, the storytelling or, you know, colors. I mean, there's just so much inspiration you can get from video games, but that is something I make time to do that every single day unless I am traveling.

00:31:14:21 - 00:31:35:00
Cara North
And then I switched to mobile gaming, which is not my favorite, although Apex Legends is now on mobile and I do like it, so we'll put that out there. But yeah, I think that's really important. But yeah, same time I enjoy reading and do get a lot of it as well because you can really kind of linger on the words and just kind of let it set in your brain and then think about it.

00:31:35:19 - 00:31:37:28
Cara North
So yeah, I think there's something really powerful about that.

00:31:39:10 - 00:31:42:05
Tom McDowall
So more serious question then favorite video game?

00:31:42:19 - 00:32:06:20
Cara North
Oh gosh, of all time. That's a that's a really hard one, I would say probably of all time. And I share this with trepidation because they are remaking it and I'm scared to death. But probably nine to the older public. Star Wars is probably my favorite game of all time. I am scared that they're remaking it because I love the Star Wars battlefront games and I hate what he hated them.

00:32:06:20 - 00:32:35:17
Cara North
Recently I. I tried to have an open mind about it. I was not happy. But the reason that I love that game so much, that's the public republic. The first game I can remember playing that was this amazing kind of art. It was like a role playing game. But then you saw the effects of your choices. So I hope I'm not spoil anything if you haven't played the game, but you essentially get to choose if you want to be like a Jedi or if I've never played the Jedi.

00:32:35:25 - 00:32:39:04
Cara North
That's why I always go real dogs to games.

00:32:39:04 - 00:32:42:01
Tom McDowall
Too much work, it being good all the time now. Yeah, I.

00:32:42:01 - 00:33:20:24
Cara North
Go complete complete 100% set. But the challenge of the game is obviously you make these decisions that are kind of evil, but then you have a crew of people around you and there's different degrees of difficulty because they struggle with kind of their own morality and what they want to do. And there's one character in particular that is super hard to get, dark side and I even watch all know how many guides about you get one shot to turn this person dark side and the challenge of that is something that I always look forward to and I find myself is another game I replay at least once a year and my husband hates that.

00:33:20:24 - 00:33:40:20
Cara North
He thinks it's the most boring game on the planet, but I love it. And then I'm also a big platformer fan, so probably my favorite platformer game is Super Mario Brothers three. I love it so much, especially because I am so much better at it than my husband. He's not a platformer family. He falls off the cliff and I just laugh and he gets so mad at me.

00:33:41:03 - 00:33:45:21
Cara North
But yeah, I really enjoy that game too.

00:33:45:21 - 00:33:55:01
Tom McDowall
Good. Good answers that relate back to what we're talking about. Otherwise as good and yeah but yes no it's the old public is a phenomenal game if for no other reason the cutscenes.

00:33:55:08 - 00:33:56:21
Cara North
Like oh yeah, those are good.

00:33:56:24 - 00:34:02:09
Tom McDowall
Masterpieces. Especially when you consider the age. Like it doesn't look like a game of its age.

00:34:02:09 - 00:34:05:29
Cara North
It's quite impressive. I agree.

00:34:05:29 - 00:34:29:10
Tom McDowall
So then going off on a completely different direction, here's a topic that I've been not struggling with, but thinking about a lot recently and I can't quite make my mind up on like a set position. I think you have an interesting take on it now. I'm sure you will have an interesting take on it, and I think everyone does.

00:34:29:21 - 00:34:41:02
Tom McDowall
What do you think Ellen D's role is in terms of kind of equity, diversity and inclusion in the workplace? It's a tricky one.

00:34:41:11 - 00:35:08:07
Cara North
No, I think we carry the torch. Right, because we impact have the potential to impact everyone in our organizations. And so if not us, then who. Right. And so, you know, I think that we need to consider how to have those difficult conversations. You know, I was in a conversation earlier today and a question came up about accessibility.

00:35:08:07 - 00:35:36:27
Cara North
Like, you know, when you design, do you, you know, kind of design assuming that you need to have different pieces in your design process? Or is that something that you kind of audience? And I very bluntly said, no, I design as accessible as I can on the front end because retrofitting is a nightmare and to the right thing to do that like everyone can benefit from some of these functionalities of assistive excuse me, accessible components and learning experience, right?

00:35:36:27 - 00:36:02:06
Cara North
So I think that we have a big role to play in it. Now, checking my privilege here, a heterosexual white person. You know, there's a lot that I certainly don't understand about, you know, that journey that people go on. But I can listen. And I think really the biggest thing that I've learned, especially the last couple of years, is, you know, to believe people and their experiences matter.

00:36:02:15 - 00:36:15:25
Cara North
And there's a lot that we can learn from the experiences of other people. And we don't necessarily have to say anything like even just listening is a good start. You'll be surprised when you go, don't even do that.

00:36:16:23 - 00:36:52:04
Tom McDowall
Yeah, yeah, I think I think it's really interesting because my, my kind of concern, certainty with it, I think is at least partially being, especially in Britain, you know, middle class white male. Yet mine is the voice that needs to be heard here. Oh, we go. Which is always a little bit tricky, but I think more so I think the fact I think the fact that it's been done so badly in so it took by what I've seen because what I've seen is a lot of content being pushed out there is what is racism and what is this and what is that an awareness of this.

00:36:52:04 - 00:37:11:18
Tom McDowall
Why the next day and kind I'm thinking from a from a workplace having deep stretch I don't look at it and think awareness of what is in issue here is not the problem. If someone's doing it, they don't care. Cause I don't think anyone at this day and age is going, Oh, I didn't know there was this thing called racism.

00:37:11:18 - 00:37:14:04
Tom McDowall
I had no idea I was supposed to be a decent human being to everyone.

00:37:16:08 - 00:37:38:04
Tom McDowall
I feel like we have to get past that and into that kind of. We're going to have conversations that people are going to find real uncomfortable and they're just going to have to go with it. And I guess part of that is the capability in L.A. has to change to be able to make that happen. And maybe I've just not seen that happen, you know.

00:37:38:14 - 00:37:38:27
Cara North
So it's.

00:37:39:07 - 00:37:39:22
Tom McDowall
Interesting.

00:37:39:27 - 00:37:57:24
Cara North
It would be easier if we were in the manipulation business, but we can't change someone's heart on the surface, right. I think that really for it to be successful, it's going to have to be multifaceted in organizations. We're going to have to have the partnership of the leadership of the organization. And I said this in my disrupt h.r.

00:37:57:27 - 00:38:23:05
Cara North
Talk that i did a month or so ago is that, you know, bottom line is no matter how much stock you have, all the high fives and, you know, the awards you pay for, for being the best workplaces of whatever the culture of your organization is, behavior that it tolerates, that's it. No matter what your statement is on it, whatever culture is, whatever behavior is tolerated, that is the culture of the organization.

00:38:23:12 - 00:38:43:16
Cara North
And we can't train that out of people. That has to be enforced. And we have to have partnership from our leaderships in our organizations in order to truly make a difference. So I think to your point, I think that's why a lot of it fails because it's like all you can train it out of them or how, you know, you just make them aware and that's good enough.

00:38:43:16 - 00:39:10:02
Cara North
No, that's just step one. Step two is how do you enforce it? How do you say that? That's what you value, right? I've seen a lot of folks talk about kind of this performative allyship, especially during the month of June with pride. Right. It's like, oh, make your your logo, rainbow, but then show me the policies of, you know, helping people that maybe have different needs in the organization.

00:39:10:02 - 00:39:34:03
Cara North
And you would probably be surprised on the, you know, the way that it's handled so I think it all boils down to, again, partnership in making sure that the organization is supporting what it is that they're saying their support. Because at the end of the day, what's the point if you don't have kind of that back up to enforce the culture that you're wanting to build, then?

00:39:34:14 - 00:39:48:07
Tom McDowall
Yeah, I think that's that's essential. And it's one of those topics where I think it's just going to it's going to take a long time, certainly for me to get to grips with where I think I stand on it. But I think, yeah, it's it's one of those topics where, you know, you know, you need to do something.

00:39:48:11 - 00:40:07:26
Tom McDowall
You just got to figure out exactly how you're going to make it work. Right? That's awesome. Well, I know we're coming up on time, but I always just like to finish off by just saying, hey, if as if that was one message, one thing that you're thinking off this message to, I say I always say the L.A. world, but it's like the listenership of this podcast.

00:40:08:00 - 00:40:22:26
Tom McDowall
It's not quite the L.A. world, not yet. You know, this this episode kind of a small pocket of the Internet. Next episode, probably the same small pocket of the Internet. But, you know, we can dream what would be that kind of final from yourself?

00:40:23:10 - 00:40:28:03
Cara North
It's easy to tell somebody that you love them today. Tomorrow is not guaranteed.

00:40:29:20 - 00:40:53:03
Tom McDowall
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the podcast. You can find links on how to get in touch with Kara in the description of the episode. If you enjoyed this or learned something, please do let us know in the comments. Remember to hit the like button and subscribe on YouTube. If there's someone in your network who you think would benefit from this show, please do share it with them and if you have something you'd like to share.

00:40:53:09 - 00:41:03:02
Tom McDowall
Get in touch today to come on the show.