David Haunschmidt - Life Is Short, So Live it.

Kia ora e te whānau. When David Haunschmidt was racing his brothers over the beaches of Westray in the Orkney Islands, he never dreamed that his life would one day take him to New Zealand and near to the top of his sport. Starting trail running in 2018 as a means of expediency (I mean, hey you can still see all the things, but just in less time) David has proven himself to be one of the most consistently high performing trail athletes we have, with a slew of wins and podiums to his name. Notably the Tarawera Ultra Trail 50km course record, and being the current European Full Distance Xterra champion.  Most notably though, David is super nice. Engaging, humble, and has a refreshingly simple (which, we note is different from easy) approach to training and wellbeing. David also serves his community as an emergency medicine specialist. Eugene and Matt speak to David about all this, how he manages to juggle a busy work and training life, and the little 1%’ers  on the latest episode of Dirt Church Radio.  Best Enjoyed Running.

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Further Faster New Zealand

Transcript

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Big races over the summer are rolling up, including Tadaweta and Old Ghost. Need an awesome pack for your next big or small adventure? Look no further than Ultraspire. Bryce Thatcher's been making the very best in hydration vests for 41 years, and they just keep getting better. Head to Ultraspire. nz for more. Wild things. We go on and on about them. But the VIP discount codes for, uh, for shop credits. Awesome. So if you use the code DCR 2023, we'll. Well, we won't. Rob will give you an epic new VIP member 20 credit to drop in the Wild Things shop. Uh, and you also get the VIP discounts with that as well. So great, great value for that little code DCR2023WILDTHINGS On this episode of Dirt Church Radio, you catch our talk with David Haunschmidt. He takes currents and he wins nearly everything. So unless you are David Haunschmidt, and by the way, hi David if you're listening, maybe you won't, but that's fine. 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No further faster there in Christchurch. Rocky is Harrying always by Jules is nice and delicious. Go further, faster now. Dirt Church Radio Episode 260 of the Dirt Church Radio Trail and Ultramarathon podcast. I'm Matt Raymond. I am Eugene Bingham. Tēnā koutou katoa. We made it. We made it, mate. We have. We have. What have you been up to? Uh, getting any Sense of refreshment ease or suckle from my holiday beaten out of me by being back at work and bit of running you Yeah, well, uh, I Had a week up north which was awesome. They don't talk about went up to the Hokianga and then across to kororareka Had some amazing runs, spotted Jenny Hurst had run a cool loop that had two ferry rides in it. And I thought, yeah, that's me. So I ran it the next day in Jenny's footsteps. So good. So good. Through the bush, uh, through, uh, coastal trails. Along path or boardwalks and pathways that I didn't even know were there, even though I've been out there a couple of times. It was awesome. It was so good. Kororareka's got some really incredible, um, it, it, for, for a relatively small geographical location, it packs a lot of goodness. And I, I think about, you know, just, we had the same, we, we had the same when we were up there. So. Saw a kiwi in the wild. Yeah, yeah at night time went out with the torches, red torches. What are they like? I mean, I guess like every other pretty similar to because they're, he's quite friendly. He's a bit chatty You know in the end we were like mate. Come on. We gotta go. It's night time. No, it was incredible We were on a track just up from where we were staying. We'd gone out at night. People said you might spot Kiwi We bumped into a bit of a local legend, it turned out, who was like, Oh, yeah, come with me. And we were walking along and he just stopped and pointed and then shone his torch. And about, I don't know, four or five meters away from us is this Kiwi tucking into some grubs or some insects in the ground. And just didn't even care that we were there. Carried on eating for about seven minutes, would occasionally look around at us. And just then in the end there was a call from another Kiwi up the hill and so he wandered off. It was incredible. Brilliant. Yeah. Shortest, shortest beak of any bird in New Zealand. Do you know that? Uh, explain yourself. A beak is from the end of the, to the nostril. Wow. And that is the beak. And Kiwi have the nostril down at the end because they grubble around and all the left mouth need to smell. Yeah. What they're doing. So they've got a tech, I mean it's a technicality. That is a, that is a, that is a great fact. That's a, that's a Keri Suter level animal fact. Short beak, long base. Wow. Anyway, we've got some exciting news. We do! So this year marks five years of Dirt Church Radio and we thought it was time to step things up. Grow up a little bit. And so we're going to be doing something extra. So in addition to regular servings of the Dirt Church Radio podcast, we're launching some subscriber extras. A new podcast, Dirt Church Radio comes out fortnightly. In the weeks in between you, if you subscribe to Dirt Church Radio, you're going to get the DCR aid station and a newsletter chock full of trial goodness. Now you can do absolutely nothing. And still keep getting your DCR podcast every fortnight and you're on your podcast platform. Nothing changes at all from that perspective if that's what you want to do, but we are offering this new feature because. Because, so if you want to sign up to the newsletter as a free subscriber, that way you'll get the free version of the newsletter in your inbox every Wednesday. And if you subscribe for 8 a month, or 80 a year, you'll get the full noise version of the newsletter, plus the DCR aid station on those in between weeks, as Matt mentioned. The full news, full noise version will include Uh, writing about trail running a DCR book club, greatest trail ever, which I like, I like the sound of that greatest trail ever. And some cool stuff we've noticed as well as. fortnightly DCR aid station podcast in that we're going to run through the hot topics of the trail and ultra world get a bit more intimate and personal and occasionally be joined by guests but it's different to the regular servings of the DCR podcast that you know and love. Yeah we wanted to actually, actually back ourself and we've been doing this a long time and we have opinions and we think that some of you want to hear what we want We know that you want to hear what we have to say. So this is something that we hope will, we're looking forward to it. And we, and we hope you really enjoy that too. So sign up, look for the link in our show notes. So you can also head along to the website and hit the subscribe now button or look out on all our socials and hit that link to subscribe, or you can search for us on substack. com. So the first newsletter. It's already up and it's free so you can check it out and the first episode of DCR Aid Station is out Next week and that'll be free as well for a little taste. So get in there and we're super excited Yeah, so as again as you mentioned Matt We're gonna make the first couple of episodes of the podcast free of the DCR Aid Station free. So January You'll get, you know, what you can get as a subscriber for free. So you can get a taste, but we invite you please to sign up as a subscriber and support us and get it amongst the goodness. It's, it is exciting. And you know, Matt and I. We started off Dirt Church without really kind of grand ambitions or, you know, magnificent ideas about what we wanted to do, but we, you know, as the years have gone by and as we've expanded and taken the podcast to the world, because we do have listeners all over the world, we've thought we should be doing something about this in terms of, you know, stepping up our game, making a You know, making use of our talents as well. You know, we both, um, have, you know, the ability to write about stuff as well, which we want to share. We can, we're good at spotting different things and spotting trends in that. So yeah, why not? We'd love to have you along for the ride. Like, like we said, substack. com. God, I think I've forgotten over the holiday break how to speak. substack. com and. Uh, on all our socials. Yeah, so, so go do it. But we've got some other stuff happening and there's some other stuff happening. So just quickly, we talked about this in the last episode, but if you haven't already, you should check out the W Run Wild for Joe event, which will be happening from 10:00 AM to 4:00 PM on the 3rd of February. To honor the memory of Joe Benbo, who took his own life last year to raise money for Joe's family and the Mental Health Foundation and to provide an opportunity for the community to connect to grieve, to celebrate. And to keep the conversation about mental health going, so we will put that link in our show notes. This week though, we have David Hounschmidt. Now this has been a long time coming, we, you'll hear that we first heard from him back in 2018 when we began, when he sent in a greatest run ever. Since then, he's, you know, and that was about the time that he was actually starting to run, but since then he's, he hasn't done too bad, has he? Have a listen to what he achieved in 2020. 23. Should we, should we do opposites in this one? No, you just read it out and we fully preface by this the fact that he's going to hate this, but yeah, David, you're doing all right, mate. The goat on the victory dice, uh, Jumbo holds, holds worse, uh, course record in the victory at Tata Weta 51k. Old Ghost Ultra, second place. Kool's Record at the King, uh, Ring of Fire, 50k. X Terra Wild, uh, West Wind. Porirua Grand Traverse. Rootburn Classic. The Tora, they were all wins. CERD at the Wellington Marathon. U2K, Kool's Record. Muka Muka Manta. Exterior European Championship, Ben Nevis Ultra, Abel Tasman Coastal Classic, they were all win, win, win, win, win. Uh, second at Ultimate Athlete, win and course record at the Loc Mara Half Marathon, win at the Mount Isthmus Traverse, second at Kepler Challenge, second in his age group at Ironman 70. 3 World Championship Qualification in Taupo. That's not even mentioning his FKT events, all these other cool things he did. Absolutely incredible, especially when you consider he's only been running for about seven or eight years. So we talk to David all about that. We talk about his childhood in a remote part of Scotland, about his career as an emergency doctor and the perspective that gives him, about his discovery of running and the big changes he's made to his nutrition and recovery regimes, which have made a key difference. Big, big korero. Greatest run ever. Greatest run ever. Greatest run ever, which is the part of the show where we ask you to write in to us and tell us your greatest run ever. It doesn't have to be a race or a mount summit, it might just be a run around the block, something that's sung to you for some reason. Send it in to us at dirtchurchradio at gmail dot com and this is from Tania Rosendorfsky. Indigenous people say that you can only truly connect to the land once you set your feet onto it. So here I was again on a beautiful Saturday morning at the start of the Paparoa Trail, 53 kilometers ahead of me, but this time, instead of a bike, I just had my feet to carry me through. Starting a trail without options to bail could leave you with a couple of questions, or a sense of adventure. or both. I've come to a point where despite the questions, I have a strong belief in my ability to endure discomfort. From about 12 kilometers in, I'd be by myself, no one to distract me when things hurt, and no one else to focus on except my own rhythm, but I was excited to be back in this place that I felt a special connection to. The first part of the trail felt slow, I felt sleepy, my mind was busy, and my heart felt closed up. I knew I had to find a way to free myself from my expectations. Once on the ridge and by myself, I felt a deepening sense of presence. For this journey, I had to be alone. A fresh breeze from the south gave me a new energy. I turned around and saw Aoraki and Te Horokoau. And their icy thrones having my back, I smiled back and thanked them for the nudge. After the ridge, I was ready to dive into the ancient beech forest with its grey and green curtains of moss. I immediately felt as part of a fairy tale and a strong connection to the past. After this trip back in time, and diving into the rainforest, which is the part I love the most, I feel a fresh sense of energy. Lots of luscious green ferns, so big, so fresh and so full of life. I found myself surrounded by so many korus, a gentle sign for the wonders of new beginnings. This run was a reminder to sometimes take the leap of faith and create something new. The energy gave me such a boost that I entered a state of flow. Everything was light and I was able to move fast, having the biggest smile on my face. When I finally got a glimpse of the Porirari River weaving its way through thick rainforest and the spectacular architecture of limestone cliffs, I knew this adventure would come to a close soon. I finished in just over eight hours, well below my expected time, with a full heart, a free mind, and deeply connected to this beautiful piece of land. Wow. Thank you, Tanya. That was, I'm going to say luscious. I just felt like I was enveloped by this beautiful bit of the world, this greenery and it sounded amazing, didn't it? Yeah, it's those runs. Like I've been kind of. Purposefully going out by myself on the weekends, just, you know, coming back from after Australia COVID that, that took a little while to kind of get things back on track and you know, I'm, I'm most of the way there, but just actually having that time to be by yourself, I love running with groups. I love running with people, but also having that time to be by yourself and really sort of settle things down in your head is, is so, so special as well. So thank you, Tanya. And the rest of you keep sending them in. Dirtchurchradio. gmail. com. Yep. We love them. We love reading them out. And if you head to the website too, you can read all about them. Uh, unabridged. So look, Eugene, take it away with the Dr. David Haunschmidt, emergency medicine doctor, winner of just about every dang thing that he enters, coach. What more is there to say? David Haunschmidt. Listen up. Dirtchurchradio. Technological vagaries of the motto aside, um, David Haunschmidt. Welcome to Dirt Church Radio. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you for having me. It's been a long time coming. Um, we've, you know, we were just reflecting before that, you know, we, we, we pulled up one of your greatest run ever that you sent us in 2018, you've been involved with Dirt Church Radio, both sort of us reading out your name, it would seem winning every Uh, dadgum race, uh, around, around the place and, and, and actually, you know, you engaging with us. So it's, it's, it's really great to, to finally get to talk to you. How are you doing? Yeah, pretty good. Enjoying the better weather for a change. Seeing some sun, training in some hot conditions. Um, yeah, no, I, I started running in 2018. So, um, I found your podcast pretty quickly. So it's been part of my running journey all throughout, actually. Wow. I feel like an apologies in order. Sorry about that. Yeah, that's exactly right. Like you haven't known anything better. Um, I mean, on that, you know, you started running in 2018, but what was your earliest memory of sport? Well, I guess I was always pretty active. Um, I grew up on a tiny island in Scotland and I think my parents, my parents style was just, you know. Send them outside and they can play and they wouldn't see us all day. And it's a very safe place. You would literally be out from dusk till dawn playing and they would feel like that was safe and fine. So I think I was just very active and that probably built up a really nice space and we did all sorts of things, you know, but nothing structured. Like our school was too small to have a running team or anything that structured, you know, we had like football and rugby, but you know, it wasn't. anything serious. Um, and then, yeah, a little bit of running here and there, some tennis and football throughout uni years. Um, but I think I, I found running certainly when I came to New Zealand. The story I've told people is, you know, I started walking all the beautiful trails and then I realized I could see them quicker if I ran and you'd get like this, this epic tramp in a couple of hours and see so much and experience the wildlife. So I kind of fell in love with it then. So just, can we just, so where, where was this remote island in Scotland? And can you tell us a little bit more about, about that, what, what that experience was like? Yeah, it's the Orkney Islands. I lived on Westray, which is one of the Northern most of the Orkney Islands. Um, very remote, our island had 600 people on it, so you kind of knew everyone. Um, the quickest way to get off the island was, you know, two and a half hour boat. So there was no police, several of us. Safe to like, leave all their car, um, cars unlocked and their doorhouses unlocked and things and yeah, it was a great place to grow up. Um. Um, we moved away when I was about 13, which is probably the right age when you wanted some civilization, but, uh, run around as a kid on, you know, the rocks and things like, I think part of the reason that I'm quite good at my balance and things and running on technical trails is because I have these memories of running along rocks, like racing my brothers to get to the other side of the bay and things like that. Um, so yeah, it was, it was a great place to live. A little bit extreme, you know, we didn't have any trees. You might have heard that about Orkney, that it's so windy and cold there that the trees don't really grow. Wow. Get the northern lights, the winters are long, you know, the middle of winter you have, uh, you can have two, three hours of daylight. Yeah, two or three hours. Wow. What do, I mean, obviously there's a community of 600 people, there's going to be a variance of roles, but what were your parents doing on? Um, yeah, so it's, um, kind of a mixture of, oh, sorry, my screen just went to the screensaver. Um, yeah, it's a mixture of mostly kind of farming, community. Um, my mom was the GP on the island, the sole GP. So that was part of the reason we eventually left because, uh, you have to be on 24 seven. Um, so I think, you know, 13, 14 years of not being able to have a glass of wine and, you know, having that responsibility does take its toll over time. Um. Now it's kind of a lot more tourism there than anything else. Some people go there to retire. Um, like it's a lovely place to live. There's a lot going for it. I would definitely recommend if you're ever in the UK to explore a bit further up. I heard recently that they started doing cruises up that way. So you can start off in, um, central Scotland and go up, stop off in Orkney. They've got some amazing biking sites. Um, and then head up further to Norway. All as part of a couple of these cruise ships. Experiences. Wow. Wow. Uh, what about, uh, should we put together a joint, um, DCR trail running tour with you of, of, uh, Northern Scotland or the Norway, Norway, Norway, Norway's on my list for trail running for sure. Yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it. We'd really have to, we'd really have to beef up our sort of aesthetics though with the crews. Cause they'd be, you know, the dancers with the hats like that and them. Magic shows and everything. That would be something we'd need to work on. But did you, have you gone back to the island and, and, and sort of with the lens of someone who now, you know, loves running trails and loves being outdoors and, and, and did, did your memories or perceptions change of the place? Well, I did go back. Um, Yeah, many years later and a couple of things. So one is I found it to be so small. It was crazy to me. So as an adult going back, it had been like quite a big break. Um, and I remember we used to walk from our school to home and to me, that was just such a huge distance. It was wild. Um, whereas now it's like, ah, it was like 5k. It was nothing. Cause the, the like length of the Island is, you know, 18 kilometers. Um, so now I'm kind of through that lens thing. Yeah. I would love to go back and just circumnavigate the island as a trail run. But to me as a kid, that would be insanity. Yeah. Did you just say you walked 5k to school? Uh, not every day, but some days. Yeah. Wow. That's. It's pretty impressive. It's a good, it's a good origin story, isn't it? When you, if, if you, you know, if you have children, you can say, well, you know, when I lived on that remote Scottish Island and, and, and granddad and Nana used to make me walk 5k to school each day. Yeah. In the dark, home in the dark. I remember being more of choice actually. Like, yeah, we did a cycle or a walk at sometimes on occasion, it wasn't a, you must, you know. You with no shoes run, running home. Like it wasn't quite like that. uphill both ways. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so when, when did you come to New Zealand and what was that decision and why did you come here? Yeah. Well my partner and I were both, um, doctors. We were working in around Glasgow, the MH sgo, the NHS, and we thought we'd try New Zealand just for six months. So organized that kind of. Work permits and things and try to do it along with a lot of holiday time. So we, at the start of that. We had about, um, three months of just travel time. So we had two months campervanning in New Zealand and a month in Australia. There was an unusual rule we fell foul of, where you had to kind of be a tourist in New Zealand, and then you had to leave New Zealand to come back as a resident, um, like a work visa. So we thought, Oh, cool. We'll go to Australia for a month. Great. So we did that, spent all of our money in three months, had the best trip ever. Campervanning around New Zealand, I think is just one of my favorite ways to just exist. It's easy freedom, you know, just excellent. Um, and then started working in Wakato for six months and yeah, nearing kind of the halfway point of that. We just thought we, we love it here. We need to stay. So then seven years later happens, you know, like it became very hard to leave. Um, and, and there's a loads of pull factors to New Zealand, like it's got so much going for it. Um, uh, I love living here, but there's a lot of push factors too. So working in the NHS as a trainee doctor at the time, you know, just kind of killing yourself to, to work and to, to get through it. And you're working on these kind of 80 plus hour weeks, no sleep, stressful conditions on the staff. Um, so certainly a better. Life for me here in that respect. Yeah. Just on the, on the medicine side. I mean, obviously with your mom being a GP, was it sort of inevitable that you were going to end up in that field? Uh, I don't know. So she was the first doctor in the family on both sides. Um, and I don't really know if she encouraged me or not. She probably told, put me off more than anything. Uh, that's what she says anyway. Yeah. Um, but no, I think I saw what she did and I identified a lot of it in terms of, you know, being a bit of a calling and helping people. Um, and then just the things I was interested in was science, health, fitness, and I just kind of fell into it from through doing well in those subjects at school. Um, yeah. And my, my other Uh, brothers. I've got three other brothers. Uh, one other one, my youngest, uh, the youngest is now a doctor as well. Yeah, maybe. Wow. It must've been, I mean, and you know, gosh, your work now in, in, in an emergency department, you know, that's a threshold that, that lots of various people step over, but being sole charge GP on an island with 600 people, I mean, your mum must've got pretty good at a lot of stuff. Yeah, she would, she would have seen it all. Yes. Yeah. If you're, if you're, it's like, you're the soul, like she had, um, a few specialist nurses that were there and again, they were just super qualified for their role to be doing everything. Um, and I've definitely taken that, you know, I, throughout my training, I've always kind of felt this almost pressure, I guess, to be the best at what I do, because I feel like you can make such a difference and You want to upskill yourself to that extent where you can kind of do everything and be the person. Um, like less so now, if I work in these big hospitals, you've got someone in the fold, people can help out. Um, but certainly when I work rurally, I do lookums in rural places, it can just be you. Um, so I think probably I did take some of that from my mom. Yeah, she's, she's big inspiration for sure. Does your drive through your, I mean, cause gosh, you know, registering as a doctor or qualifying as a doctor working in the NHS, you know, like you said, it's this, I don't think unless you're, I don't think unless you're familiar with healthcare, you realize what a, um, absolutely at times brutalizing profession medicine can be. Especially for junior doctors. And, um, did that translate in terms of your drive with medicine? Was that matched by your, like say, when you started trial running? Is, is your drive to succeed in other areas of your life as strong as, or is it, was it a, was it a different thing? Yeah, good question. Um, I'm not entirely sure. I think it helps. You know, people have asked me similar before, and I think lots of aspects of the job help and others hinder. So. Just the fact that you're working these hard conditions and you, you see a lot of struggles and you kind of experience a lot of human suffering, you put things into perspective, um, and dealing with, with harsh conditions and, you know, long shifts, you kind of build that resilience of I'll just go out and run afterwards and train and you're training on tired legs, like all that kind of helps. Um, so I think. A lot of it does help, obviously a lot of it hinders in, in terms of trying to get training in after night shifts and finishing at two in the morning and that kind of thing. Um, so it's a bit of a mixture, but you, you get, you know, you, you play the card you dealt and get on with it. Right. That's kind of my philosophy. So, um, I think a lot of it from my viewpoint has helped me, you know, the resilient side, the mindsets, um, you see everything in an emergency department, you know, you. Experience every different human emotion and all sorts. And I think it makes you very, um, like realistic and kind of value your time and your life. You know, you, you sometimes see people that were just going about their normal life, young fits, and then something happens and they're not, um, so I think for me, it's, it's made me value my life and my time and that's, that's part of why I do these races and events and adventures is because I try and get the most out of every day, right. Mm. Yes. Perspective is, it can come in some pretty raw forms, can't it, sometimes, I guess, and you know, particularly in your roles. It's, it's interesting, isn't it, that, that again, that shift work, like shift work can be a massive help because you get days off in the week, you get. You know, you kind of accumulate more leave, you can do things more on your schedule, but it is that, it's that hindrance, I mean, there's been research that'll show it'll shorten your life if you let it, you know, like, and it will, it can't, you know, your sleep, your diet, your, you know, even substance, substance use or substance dependence, it can be an incredibly challenging, incredibly challenging time, but is, is the shift work something that you're sort of, Do you see a time when you, you step away from that side of things or are you an edie dog for life? Yeah, no, you make, you make a lot of good points. And I do try and, you know, follow, follow the evidence with everything I do. And you look at some of that literature and you just think, Oh my God, it's terrible. The shift work is, um, like in terms of shortening your life and associations with heart disease, cancer, diabetes, all these things. Um, but I think that is on an average person. Um, And I think there's so many things you can do to mitigate that. So I think that that's part of, of why I do well and why I do, you know, reasonably well in these races is that I have built in these systems and checks to optimize things and mitigate some of that. Um, and yeah, like people have a lot worse working conditions than me. I'm, I'm not, you know, putting up roofing all day, you know, manual labor, like. For me, I get to sit and write notes every now and again, busy, busy periods and quieter periods. And it's all just, it is what it is. Um, and like I said, I think having that ability to train when fatigued really helps you out in some longer events, you know, the feeling and you get used to it. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, Katie Wright, another doctor has talked to us before about the benefits of, you know, particularly in the sorts of the backyard events where you're used to in sleep deprivation. Oh yeah. Yeah. You're just going to know the feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We should start talking about some running things. This is a running podcast. Sorry, we've taken you off track, but so when you, when you came to New Zealand and, and What was the, you mentioned the enjoyment of the trails, uh, was the thing that, that got you going. So was there a moment when you sort of started running as such? Um, it wasn't like a particular one. I don't think, I think it's something I kind of just experimented with a little bit. And like I said, all the initial. forays into the trails was walking and, and I was living in Wakato. So then I would just go into the DOC website and just pick a new route. So many around Wakato, it's like an amazing base to escape to all these cool little hills and things. And they're all achievable as well. Um, so I'd walk them and, you know, think, Oh, that was really cool. You know, how the, the sign that says like, you know, this is a walk in two hours and you realize you've done it in an hour and you're like, Oh, I love how they never give you distance. So it's time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then, yeah, I think I just started realizing I could job them. Um, so it was kind of a slow build, but I, I did several events in that first year in 20, I think I started kind of probably end of 2017, start of 2018, and then did several events in 2018 cause I had a few friends that were really into events, so they just kind of egged me on. Um, and then just kind of built from there. Do you remember what your first event was? Oh, no, I probably have it written down somewhere. I'm not sure. I think one of the very first I remember, because it was so brutal, um, is the Kariai Raglan Trail. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which is, I don't know if you've, you've done it. I haven't, but I've heard so much about it. It's so, it sounds incredibly brutal. So Francois is just his baby. He's actually put it to rest now after 10 years, um, because there's so much competition in that, particularly in December when that's on. Um, but no, he's an amazing guy and he's just got this love of the mountain there and It's a 24k race with just a hell of a lot of, uh, all incredibly technical, like the whole trail running dream of this just, uh, chains and ropes to climb up and down. And pretty much everyone gets horrendous cramp coming up the back end of that climb. And it's probably one of the toughest I've done even, even now. And I think that was one of the first, and I was like, wow, this is. Insane. Yeah. And I remember thinking, oh, I was, I was, I got like 13th or something and I was like super proud. Ah, there's a little glimmer of hope there. I, I think I know how to crack this. I think I could probably get better and better. Um, and I spoke to a few of the people that, you know, are winning these things. Yeah. Can see some of these secrets and see how to get there. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's not a quick process. Like it's kind of a gradual improvement, which I think I've done, but Mm. Um, I think that was one of the very first, yeah. Yeah. So it was definitely, definitely was that you mentioned that competitive instinct and the, you know, the, the, you know, desire to succeed, I guess. Um, was that, was that there from the start? Like when you, when you first began, were you lining up thinking, Oh yeah, I'm going to, I can top 10 or top 20 or whatever. I guess for me, it's always been a measure of beating myself. I always want to try and improve where I'm at. Um, so even, even with that one, I would then do the Raglan carrier trail the next year and up my time and up my placing. Um, so I think it was more a measure of what I'm capable of. Cause you know, we're all in this just to get the best out of ourselves. I think really, um, you can't control who is on that start line on that day. So I think the real value for me anyway, is getting the most out of what I can do and achieve. And you know, whether you measure that metric on a position on a podium or your time from last year or a Strava segment, like it's however you want to measure it. Right. Um, yeah, I think that's what drives me most. Yeah, that, that competition against yourself. And I heard a recent podcast with Courtney Dubolter where she was saying the same. And as far as sports, it's, it's rather unique, you know, we don't, we're not out there to sort of, it's not mortal combat, we're not out there, you know, shooting dagger eyes. I'm sure that some people are, but generally it's. Yeah. People are there to beat themselves, you know, see how, how much they can push themselves. And, um, you know, the competition comes from that and it's, but it's not sort of that same sort of aggression. Um, I'm going to get you, um, sort of vibe on a trail race line, right? I mean, having never been at the pointy end of a race, I don't know. So I'm relying on you to tell us this, David. Yeah. I don't know. I think you get a little bit of that, you know, but for me, yeah, it's more about enjoying the process. And I probably lack that little bit of killer instinct sometimes. And I've, I've definitely fallen far left that and racist as well. I'm like, Oh yeah, I'm never going to stay. Whereas I've seen other people destroy themselves and just. fall over, collapse at the finish line. I've, I've never probably pushed that hard in terms of like really smashing myself just for an extra place or something like that. Um, yeah, my, my partner, she says it's something I need to do. She sees these people crossing the finish line, collapsing and it's like, why, why aren't you doing that? I, you're obviously not, not trying hard enough, David, what are you doing? Do you, do you think that it's because of an, an Sorry to just loop around again, but do you think it's because of the work that you do and the fact that, I guess, your bar for consequence is set quite high? And the, the, your bar for outcomes is set quite high in the, and the cost of some of these decisions that you make and the fact that essentially, like you, I mean, you know, I'm not going to list the, the race, the races that you've won, it'd be here all night, but. Um, you're doing it for fun. Does it, do you think that sort of, there's that way in, you know, like it's, if you have to go back at work on your, you know, on your bruised hair, your blistered heels and, you know, cut someone open or, you know, like literally save someone's life. It must put that into, into perspective. Yeah. I mean, I think I used to be a bit more of a daredevil when I was younger. And, uh, I look back at that and think, cool, you know, I think it's just part of aging a little bit. You know, I used to on a snowboard do ridiculous things that I just think no way now. I think that's just naturally what you kind of do. Um, so that risk ratio thing. Yeah. I definitely took some more dodgy decisions, even trail running. I think, you know, seven years ago, six years ago when I started. Um, but maybe there's a part of that where, you know, you can see those consequences. I'm very acutely aware that just how simple it is to roll your ankle and have a really horrendous fracture or something, and that's you out and having a terrible time for months and months. Right. Um, so it's something you don't want to think about really too much when you're in the middle of a race. Sometimes it creeps in. Um. Yeah. But I mean, going back to that, I think, you know, you've got to just enjoy the process and enjoy what you're doing. Um, and remind yourself, it's not, it's for you to have fun. These things are there as an adventure, as an experience to get the most out of yourself and that's why these events exist. So, you know, I'm often asked, why do you do so many events? It's because it's just an opportunity to experience a new thing with a bunch of like minded people. Um, you can do that yourself. You can go out and pick a mountain and go for it, but I think you just, you don't get that same experience. And you don't also get as much as out of yourself because you do push yourself harder for sure. So if you are wanting that metric of how good am I really challenging yourself, I think just to get that extra few percent, you need to do it in the event, really. Speaking, speaking of events that, you know, you like minded people, you're the current full distance European exterior champion. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Um, what was it, what was it like running in the dollar mines? Oh, that was amazing. Yeah. I mean, I've got good. You know, a lot of really cool memories in trail running, that's probably right up there. That was awesome. There's one point in particular. Um, I wrote about this where you, you have this just insane grade, a lot of the running in the Alps, the races that are just ludicrous. Kind of ascent and descent. And this grades, I can't remember the statistics now, but it's something like 30 plus grades percent growing up this climb that you're just scrambling up these rocks and it just goes for, I think, at least a kilometer. And then you, you come out between this pass called the Brent of the Trail Pass, and it's just line people that have. there and a cable car and then trekked a few kilometers to get there with, you know, the whole, you know, horns and bells and all sorts right in your face, like surrounding you. And you know, similar to your trail running, it's just exploding recently, but similar to those images you saw with Kourtney JoWalter, um, UTMB, right? Where you just said, wow, it's just what an atmosphere. It's crazy in the middle of the mountain. So yeah, cresting over this peak in first place with all these people around, and then you just have this. epic descent for like 20k back into town. Um, it was stunning. And then all around you is just these amazing views of the Dolomites in particular. Like you just Google, you know, postcard picture of Dolomites. That's what you were in. It was these crazy stacks of rock all around you. Yeah. That'll stay with me forever. I think that kind of, uh, race memory. And was it something that you'd, you'd, you'd plan towards, or was it the fact that you were there with your partner and you were like, well, it's, it's, let's give it a crack. Yeah, I think, I think last year we, Amanda definitely wanted to go back and see family in the UK. So we were going over anyway. Um, I'd been doing really well in New Zealand races. And just kind of, you get that on your media feed of like this race is coming up and, you know, you qualify for OCC because of Tara Weirer and you've got all this in your, you know, your periphery of like, oh, this is all possible, all these adventures out there. So I thought we, I think we just took a plunge and said, right, let's do, you know, a couple of weeks over there, a race a week, see family. Do some tourism, like trying for the all in and for the most part, it went perfectly. I stupidly injured myself before leaving, but other than that, it went really nice. So we'll kind of plan to do something similar this, um, summer as well. So yeah, escape New Zealand winter and go over and do a race season in Europe, which I'm very excited about. That'd be, I mean, that'd be amazing. What, what, what particular races have you got lined up? Do you want to say? I'm still working it out. I am going to go back and do OCC because that was. Um, but I, I did that as a conscious decision in terms of, I just wanted to see what it was like, you know, like you can watch as many videos as you want. So, you know, walk the trails on the non event days. Um, but I decided just to line up and kind of just do it slowly, which was cool. It's very different experience being at the back of the back. Um, and you're serving a nice jolly in the mountains. That was, It's still pretty fun, but now I kind of know what it, what it's like and the feel and everything. I think, you know, hopefully I can do good to show it next year. Um, but there's a few others. Yeah. I'm going to be racing at, um, as, uh, Zermatt, um, there's a really cool, uh, golden trail series event there. Um, the wild Strobel and other UTMB events. There's a event. I've completely escaped the name of it now, but in Fisch, which is somewhere we visited last year. And again, it was one of these areas where the mountains just. Totally blew my mind. And there's a huge glacier there and I was like, I want to race there. And there's a race right there on the doorstep. So they're very good at making use of their. That glaciers and mountains that for sure. Is it, what's the, what is the scene? I mean, you know, coming from having experienced trail running in New Zealand for your first crack at it. Um, what is the scene? What is the vibe like in Europe from your perspective? Um, well, bearing in mind, I only did kind of those two European races and then the one in Scotland. So, um, I'll reserve my judgment until. Next year, so I think I've got maybe five, five or six races squeezing more in. Um, I mean, on the surface, like the ones I did, the exterior European champs was yeah, kind of out of this world, huge support, massive atmosphere, huge party afterwards. loads of food and beer and steins and stuff happening. You know, it was, it was a cool whole weekend event. Um, OCC obviously is massive, like being in Chamonix around that was yeah, pretty mind blowing. Um, and then the Ben Nevis Ultra I did again, it's kind of, I picked kind of, you know, the pinnacle events, the biggest ones I could. So yeah, it's a bit hard to say based on all the other ones, but I get the feeling it's, it's huge and it's getting bigger every year. Yeah. Um, yeah. But on the same side, I would say New Zealand events have got a lot of those aspects and a lot of that going for them as well. Yeah. That's why, that's why I love it here as well. Yeah. I've had equally as special moments here racing as compared to that one in the Dolomites. Yeah. Maybe not so many beer steins, maybe more kind of, um, shots of tequila from Adam Keen and Crush the Cargill atop of Mount Luxembourg, but it's kind of the same. That's true. That's true. Yeah. So it was definitely, um, beer steins at the end of the Rootburn last year. True. Yeah. True. Come on. We've all been to the moose after Kepler. We know that there's, if it's not steins, it's certainly stein adjacent. Um, tell us about Kepler this year, last year, sorry, uh, still in that. And to sort of into period where I'm not sure what year it is, but, um, how has that been one, you know, being like a couple of minutes back at rainbow reach, what, what was that race like? Yeah, it was a very interesting race. One of the weirdest race experience I've had. Um, I. Um, obviously made a massive mistake with my shoe choice, and it's amazing. Just one of these small things can completely just change everything. Right. Um, and I do say that to people, you know, you wear the wrong socks on race day or something that you've not practiced, but they can ruin your race. Most of the things that go wrong for people are nutrition. Like you've got GI issues and that DVLT or injury, but this was something else. Yeah, I, I just, um, had always had the kind of same ratios for mountain races that I relied on and been happy with. Um, and this was just the next version of that same thing. And I had done practice runs. I'd done like a 26 K run the week before, like it kind of race conditions. Absolutely fine. Maybe had a slight blister on my heel. Maybe I should have clocked something, uh, but yeah, no, I, I was running, getting really good and kind of got to hangar valley shelter. So like kind of start off with big descents, just feeling a niggle. And then very quickly, like surprisingly quickly during that descent, I think I just eroded my heels, just the movement and the friction just opened up these holes. So I was running the last 30 K at that point. Um, cause the, at the bottom, the iris burn, I think I was just in agony. I was like, please help. Have you got anything? Have you got like blister blasters? Have you got Vaseline? And they looked for ages and couldn't find anything. So I, should I call it? Should I? But at that point, I know you. I've been there like it's a helicopter or you suffer your way out. Right. Um, and I decided, no, like you've, you've come all this way, just get on with it and started toe running, which I don't do. I'm a heel striker for sure. So I changed my running gait to try to try that out on the middle of a race. Um, So I kind of suffered that until the next aid station, and then they had Vaseline, so I just smeared that all over my shoes and socks. Um, I think that's what got me to the end, but it was not pretty, and mentally probably the hardest race thing I've done in a long time. Yeah. Because they were, they were de roofed, right? They weren't, it wasn't like a, a blister, they were, because they were holes. Yeah, it was like running on knives. Yeah, it was not great. And do you know, there's sometimes, you know, with injuries and things where you get to a point where it just numbs and you're kind of like, yeah, no, it's fine now. Like if you've got blisters on your toes, but this didn't do that. I was like, when is this point? Start numbing already, please. No, it didn't. It didn't really happen. I remember at the end, I kind of, uh, one of the first things I said, it was like, Oh, congratulations, Dan. That was amazing. Well, and how did you find the shoes? Cause he's running in the same shoes as me. And he was like, great, fantastic. And I was like, Oh, I've had a different experience to you. It's, it's, it's amazing, isn't it? That, that, like you say, that those, those little there, you can control what you can control. And sometimes, you know, down to the fact that it was, uh, you know, brand X version Y versus brand X version X, you know, like that potentially, I mean, how much time not to, excuse me, not to throw any shade or how much time do you think you lost? You know, throw, throw the shade, it's fine. Uh, I, I, I still feel like it's like a really stupid, um, decision of mine, but I, I kind of felt like I did my due diligence and ran that practice run. Yeah. You know? Yeah. No, I was, I was talking about throwing shade, like trying to set up like a, uh, a rivalry between you and Dan that, that that's not what my intention was, but like, if, do you think that all going to plan, if you'd had a sublime. ride you would have, you would have, you would have reeled them in? Oh, well, I was thinking about that potentially, but it changes the dynamics. If, if, you know, you're behind and, you know, Dan probably has way extra in his legs at the end anyway, but I think based on, yeah, what I, what I think happened is I've lost at least. Two minutes I, um, I was burnt and then probably four, five minutes vacillating my feet, taking my shoes and socks off and putting them back on again at the next aid station at Rocky Point. Um, so it was quite a substantial amount of time and Well, and then I feel you also had to read Born to Run and learn how to run differently, you know, so that that must have taken a little while. So, you know, the minutes add up. Yeah. So I do feel based off of that, potentially I would've, you know, rocked up and down and run with him for a while and then it would've been a fight to the finish. And I think that would've been really cool. It would've been a great way to do that race. Yeah. Um, but like. Dan is an amazing runner and yeah, he's probably got more on his legs and more speed in his legs at that point. I have no idea like It would have been great to have had that situation. Well, next year, there's always next year. That must've been quite fraught at that aid station. I mean, that must've been quite fraught at that aid station where you had your, you had your, you know, you had your deps off and you, you, you were rubbing Vaseline on your feet going, when's third going to arrive or head, you know, when are people going to turn up? That must've been quite nerve wracking. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I felt quite level at that time. you get, you get into a bit of a, you know, just acceptance. Again, going back to what we talked about before, you're in this with fun to challenge yourself, enjoy the process. And, and it was a beautiful day, uh, Kepler this last year. Um, so I was having a good time despite that and trying to like, you've got to distract yourself and, and enjoy the things you can enjoy. So I was looking at the forest and the birds. So many. Um, here this year, it was crazy. Um, so I was doing all that. And I think I just got to that point of, I just, they had a chair. So I sat down on the chair and took my shoes off and I was just like, yeah, it is what it is, you know, a bit dejected. I was still in my mind thinking I might just walk out at rainbow reach, we'll see what happens. because it's a long way at that point. Um, so the aid station volunteers there were absolutely awesome. They gave me so much encouragement. You don't really hear it though at that point. You just like, you know, I, I accept what you're saying, but I don't believe you, but thank you, you know, but they were fantastic. Yeah. And they helped me immensely there. So yeah, kept going. I'm really glad I got to the end. I saw Amanda. She kind of has this system where she pops up at rainbow reaches and runs me for maybe 500 meters and has a chat, finds out how I'm doing. Um, so we did that this year and I think she was like, you were very close to dropping out, David. So she was very glad I kept going. That's the thing that people talk about, isn't it? They say Rainbow Reach, it's just 10k to the finish, but that's a long 10k, you know, and whilst it's not over the mountain, if anything, it's, it is the, it's the sharp point of the race because you've got 50k in your legs. It's up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down. And it's, it's, it's no mean feat. Yeah. I mean, my rationale at that point was. It's going to hurt anyway. Like if I walk out now and go to the car, it's just going to hurt. It's going to hurt all day. Having a shower. I'm already thinking about what that's going to feel like. So me running 10 more K is probably like, no, actually a big deal. Now it's going to hurt anyway. Just get on with it. Yeah. That was how I rationalized it. Um, and I think I sped up in the last 10k cause I felt like skinner done. Yeah. So anyway, that was my Kepler this year. I've, I've enjoyed all my, my, um, events there, but this one was certainly different. You always wondered with your heavy race schedule and your, um, work situation situation, that sounds bad. Your work, you know, your work life. Do you. Have a structured training approach or do you just wing it? What is your approach to training? Yeah. So I've become more mindful of this. Over the last couple of years, um, particularly as I started coaching some people, so I kind of have a bit more thought processes of how I'm structuring things and reflecting on what I've done to become good at this. Um, and for me, actually, I think I keep a general structure in my head in terms of how many sessions I want to do and how hard I want to go, but I very much have become experts listening to my body. And even if that means starting a workout and having a little warmup and then move and see how you feel and then decide what your session is going to be that day and being quite opportunistic. I think that's what I'm really good at. It's just listening to my body and doing the best training I'm capable of that day. Um, And I've learned a lot along the years, like in terms of nutrition, recovery, how many sessions you should be doing, cross training, like head the foray into triathlon and how that can be really helpful to your running as well. Um, and a lot of the, you know, small wonder centers in terms of your equipment, your race tactics and all that stuff. So yeah, it's been a process. And you're always, you're always learning as well, right? Always trying to find ways to improve. So it's almost a hybrid model then. Yeah. I guess so. Hmm. Hmm. With recovery. I mean, I almost sort of said what you consider recovery because, you know, I mean, this is the guy who goes to Kepler, goes to the 70. 3 and then has a crack at an FKT as well. So what does, what does, when you say that word recovery, what do you mean by that? How do you, how do you measure that? Yeah. I mean, recovery means a lot of things, right? I think a lot of the stuff I didn't do well when I started off running and actually led to me having a stress fracture and then going into triathlon was, um, just not eating enough and not recovering well. So I would do things like, yeah, go out for a two hour run and then quickly stuff a sandwich in my face and then go to work for a 12 hour shift. Like obviously that wasn't sustainable and led to me. getting a stress fracture. Um, and now my life looks so different. Like I will work hard to eat enough. Cause I think if you try to the extent, you know, some people training to do these races, it's quite hard to get in the number of calories and good calories too. Like you don't want to just be eating junk. Um, That's probably number one, uh, sleep incredibly important. That's probably a weak spot of mine. Um, but again, there's so much you can do to optimize that. And there's so much written on sleep hygiene and how to just get that bit extra. Um, and yeah, if you wake up, this is part of, you know, the listening to your body thing. If you wake up in the morning and you're feeling knackered. Listen to that. Don't, don't rely on, you know, Oh, my, my heart rate variability says, great. Go for it today. No, if you feel terrible, just be mindful of that and do something a bit easier. You go for a gentle swim, go for a walk with your partner, enjoy, you know, just having some time off. Um, and then other days. You can decide to just give it a little nudge and see how you feel. And they can be some of your best training days ever if you just get into it and start your body moving. And so I think you got to just do what you're capable of on the day. And then, you know, I, I, with this coaching thing, I sent people. You know, we work out on training peaks and keep it very structured. And we periodize the training and, you know, taper for races and build up that kind of thing, and that's all great as a general plan to start off with, but we, we very much rely on feedback and listening to your body and yeah, looking at some of those metrics in terms of. You know, your sleep and your resting heart rate and things. But I think I try to try to instill that listen to your body and yeah. Get the most out of yourself. I was going to ask you about sleep specifically and sleep specifically as someone who, you know, like I did 21 years of shift work, um, and I'm thankful every night that I go to bed. And get my good sleep now that I don't do that anymore. Um, how do you, after a shift, like what, you know, you, you're coming home. I'm guessing you don't do full night shifts anymore. What do you know? So I'm lucky now. Yeah. I'm on call overnight, so. You can go home at one in the morning and then get called back two hours later and have to go into an emergency that's happening, which is always fun. Um, and then you could be scheduled on like the next day after that on an AM shift, waking up at seven in the morning again. So it is quite disruptive. Um. I think it gets harder the older you get, for sure. Easy, son. Easy. No, for me. I look back at the things I could do in my 20s, like starting off as a doctor, and you're like, man, how on earth did I survive that? It's ridiculous. Yeah. For now, yeah, you have to be very mindful of having your routines of winding down for bed. Um, like I take magnesium, I try and do all the one percent things to, to improve my sleep and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work so well. Yeah. But you gotta do your best. So it's funny, isn't it? That even that being on call and, and, and so just, uh, those, those things that kind of disrupt you, I was on call last night and I slept like a log and then some nights I'll be on call and I. Won't sleep at all, you know, and it's very variable in terms of what what you know It might not be even anything different. You don't know what's gonna happen some nights You know, you're in for a rough time But if it it's so funny, isn't it and how that actually Like you're right as you age as you get older how important it is In terms of like, if you haven't got enough sleep, how that can affect your, your physical wellbeing. It's just no, I mean, it's torture. Sleep deprivation is torture. They use it as torture. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And, and, you know, you have to be really mindful of the knock on effects too. So though you're not your best self, if you've had, you know, four hours sleep and you try and carry on with your normal life of socializing, training, you know, appointments, making decisions, it just doesn't go well. You're not your best self, so you've got to be mindful of that and give yourself break. I think you have to be quite kind to yourself. So again, going back to those training decisions, those are the times when you, you wake up and you're like, you know, you've not had enough sleep. Those are the days I'm not going to go hard because you'll put yourself in a bit of a hole. But David, it'll be read on training pics. Oh, no, but this is the thing is that these are the things that we, we hold ourselves back with. I can't think, I can't tell you how many times I've had, and I've been there on training peaks going like, I feel like, you know, 10 pounds of caca in a five pound bag, but I'm going to go out because it's the thick, cause it says green and I don't. You know, I'm paying 20 bucks a week for this and I'm gonna get that you know, or whatever it is. I mean, I, I was very late to a lot of the technology. So like, I only got, I've gone and watched again, a gift from my partner, um, I think in like 2019. So I, I've been running for years at that point, maybe 2020 because I, it was run my triathlon time. Yeah. And, um, I'd never used training peaks. I'd never really been on Strava and then just, I, I, I use them with a pinch of salt. I think your motivation shouldn't come from a green tick, it should come from, you know, something a bit deeper than that. Um, and for me, well, I mean, it can come from wherever you want to be fair, but for me, it doesn't, it doesn't come from that. And I do fall foul of doing that with races though. So there's been plenty of examples when I've had the FOMO of missing out of an event or an experience, or someone's invited me to do an adventure and I'm not being ready for that, and I've just, no, I'll, I'll, I've paid my money. I'll book the trip. I'm gonna do it. So, I do, I do follow, follow up that, so I, I do get where you're coming from there. Mm-Hmm. Um, and again, you, you just wanna balance, wanna get the best out of life, don't you? So sometimes absolutely. Decisions. Retrospectively turn out to be good. Sometimes they turn out to be bad. They do. They do. So I, I had the first 15 odd years of my running without GPS watch, cause there weren't GPS watches. Um, and my first watch was look at the kitchen clock before you go running and then go run and then come back and look at the kitchen clock again and go, Oh, okay. Yeah. I was out for. Um, but I think I was, I was the same cause I would look at my, I would drive to, um, Kakapuka this, this old mountain and, um, we've got to run up and down it. And I'd look at my, my car clock when I got back and that'll be my time and like, I did better this time. Great. Yeah. Um, I was on my first year of doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I certainly have memories of scrambling in the door, like pushing people out of the way. So I could look at, you know, get out of the way, mom. I need to see the clock. Oh yeah. Okay. Um, but, but I do, it is, it's, it can be, you know, now I, of course I have a GPS watch and of course I look at, you know, all that, all that sort of, I love. Kind of geeking out on data and you know, you're, you seem to take a very scientific approach to things as well. So it's very easy to fall into that trap of, um, not even, even beyond just that, that green tick, Matt, the, the sort of actually being fascinated by all the numbers and what, what the data is telling you, because there is just so much data. Well, I mean, your vertical oscillation. Important. Right. Exactly. I mean, I'm not even sure what it means. I recently got a new watch and it's telling me about the power. Yeah. Yeah. It's telling me about the power of my running and I'm like, I need to look into this because I'm unsure what this means. Yeah. Absolutely. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a metric that cyclists use, but I, I think if you're going to use power, you need to use more. I'm very used to it in cycling. Yeah. But. Not, not with my shoes. But your power needs to be majestic. How does it even figure it out anyway? It's magic. What is the sorcery? But we just wanted to, um, come back to nutrition because you, you mentioned that as something that's made a big difference and you know, without dealing with it, you ended up with a stress fracture and that is something that, you know, it's, that's, that's real, it's real life for a lot of people. So what changes? Did you make, and can you sort of describe without sort of, um, you know, going into private details or anything, but how, how do you, what's your approach to nutrition? Yeah. I mean, I, again, bigger picture, I, I'm also into this because of longevity and health and you know, the, uh, Good nutrition and exercise thing is just fantastic for so many aspects. And even the things people don't think of, like, you know, dementia protection for the future, um, and having a better health span. So living into your eighties or nineties and still being able to do things like, you know, I aspire to be like some of my patients who are in their nineties. Running and playing with their grandkids or going out in the mountains. Um, that's how I want to be. So I think approaching it from that perspective, rather than just a pure performance perspective is important to me. So I don't train on, on, you know, lots of sugar and gels, because I think you do just get yourself insulin spikes. And yeah, maybe I do slightly better in my performances and training because of that. But. Um, I generally train, you know, based on real foods and fuel up really well afterwards. So that's, you know, loads of vegetables, loads of different colors. Um, I eat meat, so I get a good protein source from that, but try and add in protein from nuts, seeds, legumes, you know, um, and just a very varied diet. I think, you know, your body. It's just this amazing machine that you feed it the right stuff and the amazing nutrients that are out there and it will perform for you and be better for it and make you feel better too. And again, that's, that's another thing for those poor sleep days. If you feed yourself a really amazing, vibrant diet, you feel better. It's just life is good. Um, so I think that that's kind of just where I approach things from. It's just having a real good and enough diets. Um, I think the biggest thing I didn't. Do well at the start was just, yeah, the volume, I didn't realize I needed to perform and to maintain. Um, you know, muscle mass and to improve, um, because certainly there's, there's early years, I would set myself these challenges and, you know, go out for three hour run up a mountain, crazy virus, and then take nothing with me. And then get back and think, God's kind of a salad. What are you thinking? Whereas now I'm, I'm always having like, there's lots of snacks in the car and healthy, you know, protein bars and thing. Um, I'll definitely get in like enough protein in the day. So, yeah, I hope that. things that tell my athletes it's like at least 1. 6 grams per kg of lean muscle mass to protein. That's how much you should be getting. Um, yeah, so there's lots of these just basics that you can get right for your performance and health. So yeah, I think that's how I approach it. It's not, not any particular secrets. It's just all these. And, and I, I try and improve it all the time, you know, and, and little things like even, um, you know, like I'm unlucky enough to be an ambassador for currents. And the way I started with them was I looked into them for health and I was like, man, these great idea to get just boost how much, um, you can get in a day. So that's where it started. And then all these, uh, benefits of potentially improving your endurance and recovery and recovery. You know, your performance and I was like, man, this is really cool. And I've got the science behind it. So, um, yeah, those are the kinds of things I'm interested in and you can improve, you know, even a 1 percent from some of these extra things and then great. Yeah. More for that. There's no, yeah, there's no easy answer. Is there what you're saying? Sounds quite simple, you know, simple, but hard, right? Well, simple is not easy to do well. Simple isn't easy, but easy is easy is often what people want. And, and, and I think even in this sphere, this space, you know, we're always looking for that next big thing or that, you know, that next, and what you're saying in terms of diet is yeah, eat, eat, eat a good diet, eat an okay diet, get some sleep, drink some water, go outside, have a run and you'll be pretty good. And enjoy it. That's, that's what it's there for. Yeah, absolutely. David, this has been wonderful. I think there's, there's, there's no secret. Be good at this. You know, there's so many people thriving and running and endurance thoughts and people do it in their own way and they do it differently. Um, you just have to find your own, your own process. And if that means, yeah, just building in extra little ways to enjoy and eat well and sleep well, then that's, that's how you get there. Right. Just take it day by day. Absolutely. It's interesting, even in the space that you see people who appear to be miserable and you got, you got to think like what, whatever you're carrying or whatever you're kind of searching for, it'd be nice to sort of. put, put that down a little bit, eh? Because you're right. This is, I mean, you know, gosh, you see it every day. This, we get one shot and, and there's no guarantee. Well, there's, there's one guarantee at the end, uh, but there's no guarantees leading up to that, right? So we might as well enjoy the time that we have. No, life is short. Enjoy every day. Uh, that's why I try to remind myself too. If you're having a bad day to stay, not like this could be, you could not be here whenever. Um, so enjoy what you're doing. Fantastic. Would you like another shot of the greatest run ever? Your delightful, delightful one here from 2018, which is just starts Dear Matt and Eugene, which is lovely. Would you, have you got another one or? Yeah, that was probably a bit out of date. I've, I've had many careers run since then. I think, uh, I did think about this, obviously I'm a fan of the show. So, uh, I wonder that I could cheat a little bit and. There was a little trip we did down for my first ever Kepler, and it was the one where they canceled it and placed it a month later in January. So we were down there in December, decided just to keep our Airbnb and our bookings and things. And in the space of five days, I ran Kepler by myself. Fantastic. Beautiful day. Lots of Kia. Saw the course for the first time. It's like, this is insane. And then we were in town and I was like, Oh. You know, Milford is really close and there's all these companies that have the boats that go across. Should I just do that? So did Milford and run that again. Great day. It was, um, because of the COVID spike, really quiet. So I had it pretty much not to myself, but a lot quieter than it normally is. And then we went down to Rakiura and the plan there was actually just to do some Kiwi spotting and have a nice time. And. I was like, why not just do the rocky road track, did that as well. So in the space of five days, did three of the great walks and had just an epic week. And that's kind of my greatest run ever because they felt like it was the same process and the same trip. So yeah, again, part of why I came over here and why I'm living here and why I think I'm staying for a long time. Um, just love. experiencing these trails and these new adventures. Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. That is, yeah, you, you can definitely have that one. We'll, we'll let you have that one. Um, not just because you already had one, but, but, um, because you are who you are and, you know, we, we really appreciate, um, you coming on and we, and we loved. Watching you and marveling at your incredible feats. So keep it up and we can't wait to see what's next. Yeah. I appreciate the work that you do as well. So thank you very much. It's, uh, you know, you're right. It is a, it's a call to service, right? So thank you for that too. And, um. I hope you have a ripper of a year. Thank you. Yeah, no, I've got to say I've been a massive fan from the start. So thank you for what you do. I think you elevate sports and, you know, I think the reason it's taken me so long to come on is because I just felt a bit in awe of all your other guests and the amazing chats you've had. So, um, thank you for doing what you do. It's pretty incredible. I was just thinking, and one last thing, I was just thinking if you're in a plane, you know, it's like, is there a doctor on board? Yes, there is. Yes, I am. Even if they'd need it. Is there the full course exterior champion on board? Yes, I am. You know, like you've done amazing, man. Like don't hide your light under a bush away. Thank you for having me on. I'm a fan. Yeah. Yeah. He was, you know, he said to us that he was nervous about doing it and he had kind of Yeah. Avoided us a little bit. No, no, he turned us down. We courted him for a long time. It took me calling him out publicly. That's right. When I talked to Carly. You did, you called him out. Called him out. And then he got in touch. Glove slap. Yep. That's right. I forgot about that. Yeah, we should have had him on about that. But no, look, it was worth the wait, wasn't it? It was an amazing insight really. It was well worth the wait. It was an amazing insight. I felt a real sense of professional admiration for him. I've spent a lot of the last, well, a lot of the last actually, especially the last 15 years hanging around in EDs, um, and working with some pretty amazing. Emergency medical doctors and, um, you know, and, and, and nurses, of course, but, uh, you know, an emergency medical specialist, it's a pretty, it's a pretty, not everyone gets to be an emergency medical specialist, and there's a good reason for that, um, and. Yeah, it's just fantastic and also it's been interesting him and I've been kind of chatting back and forth about We talked about it and well you've heard just how terrible shift work is for you. There's been a lot a lot of chat about that But um, yeah, thank you David. It was it was it was well worth the wait and and and we you know I can't wait to see what you, what you get up to this year. Thank you to everyone for tuning in. We are on social media at Dirt Church Radio. You can email us dirtchurchradio at gmail. com. Don't forget to sign up to the new podcast and newsletter, please. Don't forget to write in with your greatest run ever. We'd love to hear from you and you can read them on the website too, and sign up for our new newsletter. Thanks to our sponsors, Scott Running, Further Faster, Curren, Cieli, and Wild Things. Our sub stack subscribers, go on, you know you want to. Stay tuned for our show in two weeks when we have another guest lined up, and check out the DCR aid station next week. Hei konei, hei kona. Thanks,Rigby.