Reform Radicals

In this episode, we talk with Lisa from Labor Notes and Scott from the IBEW reform caucus CREW about the new guide on building rank-and-file reform caucuses in existing unions. Reform caucus organizing is one of the primary strategies within DSA and the broader American labor left to support the growth of a militant, democratic workers' movement. 

Find the new Labor Notes guide, “How to Build a Union Reform Caucus,” here. 

Check out the classic Secrets of a Successful Organizer here, as well as Ellen David Friedman’s new book, Keep Going: A Guide to Organizing When it’s Hard. 

Kim Moody’s 2000 essay, "The Rank and File Strategy,” can be found here. 

Become a member of Democratic Socialists of America.

Sign up to receive NPEC's newsletter, Red Letter. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

And it's like, you know, you read about all these people from 1934 and the CIO and Teams for Democratic Union. And until you meet them, they're there's people in a book. You know, they're not something that's really connected to who you are as a person day to day. Then you meet these people who founded their own Reform Caucus, which had some real some real victories under their belts, and you're like, oh yeah, they're just like as they're just as dumb and normal as me. We could just do it too, you know?

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Hi comrades, and welcome to CLASS, the podcast of Democratic Socialists of America's National Political Education Committee, or NPEC. My name is Michaela, and I'm the current chair of NPEC and a member of North New Jersey DSA. Today we're talking with Lisa from New York City DSA, and a staff organizer with Labor Notes, and Scott from Richmond DSA and an IBEW Journeyman and Crew Reform Caucus member about Union Reform Caucuses and their role in building the labor movement into a powerful militant force against capitalist exploitation. Before we dive in, a reminder that CLASS is available on all major podcast platforms. Please consider becoming a DSA member by following the link in the podcast description. You can also send us a message about the episode and sign up for Red Letter and Peck's Monthly Newsletter using the provided links. But it has been an ongoing debate and problem for decades. The reasons for it, of course, and as always, are rooted in the historic struggle of the working class to collectively organize and raise class consciousness even enough to fight the boss, much less win socialism in a mass movement. The unevenness and decline of the labor movement is due to relentless propaganda, state policies, and capital suppression in the workplace and the economy, to stymie unions and keep their power limited, to ensure they're always dependent on the status quo institutions, supporting whatever political party seems to be the lesser of two evils. Even though union density has shrunk considerably over the last 50 years, big labor unions with their many thousands and even millions of voters are still important allies in elections and in legislative pushes. The political power of unions and the working class does not go unacknowledged by the ruling class, even as it has busily sought to suppress and control it. Each of the two parties says, cooperate with us, and it might not get any worse for you. Keeping that system in place means that unions have limited themselves internally over time as well, become less militant, democratic, and member-led, and more top-down, professionally dominated, and service-oriented. This conservatizing drift, sometimes argued as necessary for bare survival, is often called business unionism. Conservatism in the labor movement is not always overt, like a union president supporting a Republican president. It takes the form of union leadership structures and internal decision making within the union, being designed to ensure members aren't able to just directly influence the direction of the union in any meaningful way. This is the current mainstream of unions. But reform caucuses, self-organized groups of rank and file union members, are forming to change the channel on this business union status quo and fight for democratic control of their unions by challenging conservative leadership. While a relatively newer phenomenon, around the past 50 years or so in the US, reform caucuses have been a major step forward in the workers' struggle to organize effectively to fight the boss, not just bargain with him. And through that struggle to raise class consciousness about who our real enemies are and how we can collectively beat them. For socialists, this is also a step out of the wilderness and towards a real labor movement that many of us have played key roles as workers in making move. Labor Notes, which has been around just about as long as the modern Reform Caucus movement, has just released a guide on building them, which we'll link in our show notes. And we are so happy to have comrades here to talk about the guide with us as well as the relationship between socialists and labor. Lisa and Scott, welcome to class.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Great to be here. Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

Yeah, same. Thanks for thanks for thanks for inviting me.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Of course. Thank you for being here. Um, so we always ask everyone the same question when they come on, and it's how and why did you become a socialist and how and why did you join DSA?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Great question. So I became involved with the labor movement first. Um I was a grad student at Harvard when the unionization uh effort took off there. Um we won our union election in 2018, and that was about the time I got involved. And I was becoming socialism curious around that time, you know, in the aftermath of the Trump election. And um, it turned out everyone I was organizing with in the union was a socialist. Um, and one of them invited me to um a labor working group meeting uh in Boston, DSA. Um and then I got very involved with the labor working group. Um, I think officially joined DSA in 2019. Um and then uh yeah, and the in the Harvard Grad Union is affiliated with uh the United Auto Workers. So um then I got involved with the reform movement uh in the UAW um in about uh 2021. Um so that's sort of I think the brief history of of of all of that.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Yeah, kind of looping around the labor movement involving it as you went. That's also a little bit what happened with me. I organized my union at Cornell, but we lost our election. Um and then um Trump was elected, and I was like, what do I do? And then DSA happened to be the Bernie group. So I I that's how I got involved. Uh Scott, what about you?

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Um I did not start on the left or a liberal at all. Like my my my my first uh my first um my first vote I ever cast was for George W. Bush in 2000. Um and you know, just the the the Iraq war kind of moved me away from that. I'm edited at Mary in a Marine. Um and uh, you know, George Bush sent her off to Iraq. You know, that's that's what they did with Marines at the time. And um so yeah, it was like 2006. So I'm from the old DSA. You guys are from the new DSA. I'm I'm like I'm like the the single if if a seniority list was kept by DSA chapters, I am the single most senior DSA uh member, and in fact the only one from the old DSA in my chapter. Um and kind of I'm I'm looping my timeline around frequently. Um uh I'm looping my timeline around a little bit here, but sort of leading up to my my my daughter's mother getting sent off to Iraq, uh sort of purely by accident, I had read a kind of bad book by Cornell West. I think it was Democracy Matters, not as best. Um and then and then and then the same thing, like at the base library, um, I had found Barbara Ehrenreich's uh uh rank and file. Was it no it's called? What is it called? Nickelden Dimed? Nickelden Dimed, the big one from her.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

And um it was like this uh I know, I know, you know, I know that book can be controversial in some circles, and and deservedly so, but it did kind of make me think about my own class from outside in a way that I had never really done before, you know? And so I had these ideas like janging around my head, you know, see my seeing hold like holding my baby daughter and get on the C-130 off to Iraq. And I was like, oh, maybe the socialism thing is the only thing we can do to stop this awful war, you know. So um I literally kind of went home and Googled socialism that day. Um happened on a few group happened upon a few groups as one can imagine in 2006, and after reading through it, decided on the on the DSA. 20, 20, 20 years in as of as of this June.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Wow, congrats. And also I really hope that your chapter decides to give you a plaque or something to commemorate the fact that you're the only old DSA member. Um the old, old DSA member, because then we have to distinguish it from Y DSA, right? There's the the young, the old, and then there's the the forefathers. Um, well, it sounds like there was also a lot of sort of labor curiosity or labor um related, both organizing as well as like sort of what you said, Scott, about it sort of jamming around in your head or like this sort of realization of your class positions. But Lisa, you said that you got involved with the labor movement via your own organization. And then um, Scott, you you read Nickeled and Dimed, um, but how did you end up getting involved in the labor movement? Um, maybe Scott, you can you can go first and then with Lisa, maybe you have something else to pick up on.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

I just worked a bunch of terrible jobs my whole life, like real nickel and dimed style jobs, you know? And then I finally I got I got into the IBW in my in my late 30s and um got got in at the bottom as an apprentice. Um by the way, if you're if you're in your late 30s, just just take the plunge. You you the that it's worth it. Um I get I get into my union and I like I I love my union. Like I wouldn't be bothering to spend all this time running a reform caucus if it wasn't for it, but you find if if I didn't if I didn't deeply love it, but you find out pretty quickly that a lot of the things that you hope for, particularly if you so if you're a socialist and you've you've you've you've and your your your interaction with the labor movement have been more theoretical than than than practical, a lot of the things you're hoping for just kind of aren't present, you know? There's not a lot of democracy above the local local level. Um and frankly, even in a lot of locals in the IBW is not much democracy. Um we don't really if you're in construction, you don't have a real vote on your contract. A lot of other little things, a lot of other little things. And um after uh yeah, so that's basically how you get how I got involved. Like I got into my union and got active in it because what else you do, you know. Um and you know, eventually decided to form these ideas about changing it, you know.

unknown 10:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Lisa, did you wanna mention anything about maybe your own like, you know?

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Yeah, yeah. I think I think I also came to union reform like very honestly. Like, okay, once I got involved with DSA, I I read the rank and file strategy, which I think we're gonna talk about later. But um, you know, when we were organizing at Harvard, um there were actually two elections. There's one in 2016 that was actually overturned by the NLRB um because Harvard didn't provide uh like a full list of workers. I think it was a violation of the Excelsior rule or something like that. Um, but uh we didn't do so well in that election. It was, you know, this was 2016. You know, now I think grad unions win their elections by like a 99% margin. It wasn't like that, you know, 10 years ago even. Um, and I mean one issue was that uh we had decided to affiliate with the UAW and everyone knew that uh the FBI was raiding, you know, like um Gary Jones's house, and like, you know, this was like not uh this was like a very corrupt union. And I think uh I think that really was like a real um reason a lot of uh grad unionists um and people even like outside of Otto, which is most directly impacted by the corruption, um, you know, I think all UAW members sort of felt this stake in um uh yeah, trying to improve the union. And um it was toward the end of 2020 that I heard about UAWD. Um, and I remember being on a Zoom call and uh like wow, there's actually like an effort to try to, you know, to make this union better. Um and that's that's what inspired me to get involved.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

And UAWD stands for Unite All Workers for Democracy, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Yeah, so it was a uh reform caucus um that got started uh kind of a year or two before that. Um and it actually dissolved uh last year. Um but um at the time it was uh the reform uh caucus, the reform movement in the UAW that was organizing for direct elections of the top leadership, um, many of whom you know were which seems like a very good prompt to maybe try to get some new people involved.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

I mean, I can say from my own experience um with unionizing, it really did make me realize like if I and everyone else who is working as grad assistants in some way wasn't here, this university would stop running. And that's the power we have. So it actually was, you know, prompted by that. But I grew up working class. Um, my dad was really opposed to unions, but he was in construction um and uh got laid off and you know, we had to move out of our house. Um, foreclosed on. And so being poor and like being a person who like is working class didn't necessarily like connect with me until, you know, I actually had to work. And what you said, Scott, about working a lot of shitty jobs. Like I worked all through college, not really shitty jobs, because I, you know, worked restaurant. I mean, I didn't think they were shitty at the time. I thought they were pretty fun, honestly. I was living in Seattle, though, so I was having a lot of fun. Um, but nonetheless, like, you know, working to live really does kind of like bring it home for you. And then being in a union doesn't necessarily mean that everything's hunky-dory, right? Um, like you both have gestured towards like being in your union made you realize this union could be better, right? Like we could make it better. So what is the reform movement? Because some people listening might think that it sounds a little dry or technical or conservative, like it's reform, not revolution, right? Like if you're prone to using either or both of those terms in any way. But what's the history conception? Like, what are the kinds of things that you sort of marshal like to talk about reform caucuses? And what are some of maybe the the touchstones of of reform?

SPEAKER_03 14:46

I mean, I think historically the the touchstones we look at are our are you know, teams for a democratic union, like the you know, 1934 Minneapolis, uh, the CIO, all this stuff. But this is like frankly in the past. You know, I'm teaching for Democratic Union is still around, but the its founding was certainly 50-some years ago. Um the thing I think the thing that did it for us here in Richmond, because okay, so crew cox to rank a file electrical workers, rank file uh reform movement in the IBW, which is International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, we started here in Richmond. You know, it's now nationwide, coast to coast border to border, but we started it right here. And the thing that really kicked it off for us, and by us I mean like a like a small cohort of like some of the you know, dumbest, most normal white guys in in Richmond, uh, was helping to found uh a local affiliate of the Southern Workers' Assembly, the Richmond Workers Assembly in our case, and then meeting the people who had started the Virginia Caucus of Rangophile Educators. And it's like, you know, you read about all these people from 1934 and the CIO and Teams for Democratic Union, and until you meet them, they're just people in a book. You know, they're not something that's really connected to who you are as a person day to day. Then you meet these people who founded their own reform caucus, which has some real some real victories under their belts, and you're like, oh yeah, they're just like as they're just as dumb and normal as me. We could just do it too, you know? Um and and so yeah, we had this little little little group of people who had been uniting around some some some workplace stuff. Like I would say in particular, this is kind of you know um endemic in the in the building trades, real poor at the time, a real poorly developed steward system. Um, definitely some stuff around the way our apprenticeship is run. Um where rankling us at the time. And then, like I said, you get back to these these these big these big picture issues about actual unidemocracy, whether we're talking about over our contracts or over our leaders. Um and we meet we meet these folks and we we decide that we can we can just we could just do it ourselves. Like who's stopping us? Like we have freedom, uh you know, it's we still have freedom of associations in this country. So we like had a couple little exploratory meetings about it, and finally had like a like a little meeting at a at a Waffle House by the airport over here. And um a friend Leo wrote up a little wrote up a little charger charter and we sat down, talked it over, and put up our hand and sort of created that day. You know, that's uh that's kind of the story of that that of how that came about. So depending on who you're talking to and what you're talking to them about, it depends on whether you're gonna engage with these like these big broad issues, these things that we're gonna change in 20 years, right? Or whether the thing that you're gonna talk about is like, damn, we don't have with this, we don't have a steward out here, or the steward we have, we have out here just like doesn't do his job in representing the union, representing the men in any in any meaningful way. So it's like it's like multi- I can say it's like multi-strategy, which is maybe a cop-out, but like it literally is. Different people respond to different things, and um, you know, that that's that's that's that's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Yeah, I guess when you think about it, like reform, like you were saying, doesn't have like the most exciting connotation. Um like union reform's also even been associated with like conservative tendencies. Um uh but yeah, I don't know. Maybe we need to like rebrand this or something. Like it's about union transformation, it's about turning unions into like true organizations of the working class, like fighting for on behalf of the working class, like real vehicles for um, you know, uh actually winning the things uh we need. Um, in a sense, uh reformist things, right? Like that, but that really improve people's lives and um can also uh you know help become like the building blocks of broader um, you know, societal transformation, um, you know, become the basis for um a more socialist uh society. So yeah, reform caucus maybe doesn't capture all of that. Um but I think uh I mean, I think Scott's story of how you know uh IBW crew was started, um, is just uh yeah, I I think it really just comes down to um, you know, to kind of uh zoom, zoom out or zoom in from all the sort of like um, you know, theoretical ideas of a reform caucus. It's really like about union members who want to organize together to transform their union. That's the definition we use in um, you know, the guide to building a union reform caucus. Uh and uh, you know, that's not something we can take for granted. You need people who really care about their union, really passionate, can put in the time and energy on top of their normal jobs, sometimes holding union positions, sometimes also being active in DSA or other organizations, people who have families, um people who um, you know, really think it's possible to uh have a better union. Um and, you know, and I think those people um deserve all the help and and support.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Yeah, we're also gonna talk more about the what's actually in the guide here in a in a couple minutes, but I wanted to pick up on something that both of you said. Like, Scott, you'd said, you can be just as dumb as me and be able to do this. Can you believe it? Um, and then there's also this sense of when people find each other, like within these unions, you know, who want to change their union, there's maybe a sense of having been excluded or like having not been able to like get up through these channels. And something that, of course, as DSA members, it's in the name. We care about a democratic society. And a lot of times what we talk about whenever we're talking about why unions, you know, even without reform caucuses involved, but why unions is because they are supposed to be, in parentheses, democratic organizations, like places where workers can raise their consciousness because they're making collective decisions and they're doing things collectively. They're they're deciding on their fates, the fates of their own workplaces, their own, you know, kind of lives as workers together as workers. So maybe you can talk a little bit about what you think the role of democracy is here. Because of course, we've got Teamsters for a Democratic Union, we've got uh Unite All Workers for Democracy, we have, you know, the one that's for the UFCW, Essential Workers for Democracy. So democracy kind of like is a theme throughout. So maybe both of you can can give your take on like why democracy is such a central part of this. You did gesture at the fact that there were all of these corrupt guys, but some of these corrupt guys end up winning elections, right? Um, we know about what happened with Sean O'Brien. Um, who is not an ideal uh union president? He's not free of any kind of, you know, sort of bad politics or or what have you. But then we also have Sean Fain, that we've got the two Seans, you know, dueling. Um why democracy? Um, you know, why why is that so central to the project of the of the reform caucus movement? And I also want to talk a little bit about why we would need to change it, because I also think that reform has a transformation transformational conception. But first the democracy question.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Yeah, so I think uh the specific examples you brought up, I think both in the Teamsters and in the UAW, um I think there was a pretty strong consensus among reform-minded members that uh members did need the right to elect the top officers. Um, and I think you have to look at, you know, the structure. Um, you know, I'm more familiar with the structure of the UAW specifically, but both the UAW and the Teamsters, very um, you know, there was uh there was another caucus in place, but it was the caucus of the incumbents, and they had uh very tight control over the whole union. Um and some other international unions are also like the by international union, I just mean like sometime, you know, like the UAW and the Teamsters. Um and uh, you know, so it was it was clear that there was like sort of a very entrenched impediment to uh that uh precluded sort of further transformation of the union or else it'd be or or otherwise it would be very hard, right? If you couldn't get the administration caucus out of power uh in the UAW, if you couldn't get uh Hoffa out of power um in the Teamsters. Um so I think that is part of the reason why democracy is emphasized so much um in those reform movements, same the UFCW. Um members lack a direct vote uh for top officers in the UFCW are at uh as well. Um and that's been a major goal of the reform movement. Um but I think you know, just more broadly speaking, um uh, you know, whenever we talk about union action, like effective um worker organizing, it involves people, involves people actually being able to participate, having a say, um, having knowledge of what's going on, right? As a very basic precondition. And um those things, if you look at sort of, you know, pre uh Sean Fain, UAW, uh, you know, uh there was like the you know, the big three talks, uh the sorry, the auto uh negotiations, right, happened behind closed doors. Members didn't know what was going on. Um when uh Sean Fain was elected, they decided to do bargaining in a very different way, had regular updates, really involved the members. Um, so you know, and we saw saw the result, the best contract um in many, many decades. So I think um yeah, democracy is just uh essential for um uh affecting the kind of for for just being effective.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Yeah, democracy shows our power as well as is essential to it. I think the point about the big three is really key because also there were these Facebook updates that I watched, um, you know, just because it was so exciting what was going on. I'm not a UAW worker, but a lot of people watch those and it wasn't just like, oh, we're so happy that our president is doing this. It was like, no, this is important to like keep people's morale up, to make people stay out on strike, and to also demonstrate to these uh bosses, um, you know, the people, these CEOs running things that like people are really behind this. Like, um, you know, democracy is a big picture uh endeavor. It's not about what happens between a few people behind closed doors. And um, Scott, I want you to to weigh in on this uh democracy question too. And uh can you also answer how big a union IBEW is? Because, you know, I'm assuming it's pretty large, but probably not as big as um UAW and the uh Teamster Union.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

Uh the IBW is much, much larger than UAW.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Oh, is it?

SPEAKER_03 26:35

Um though though not as big as the Teamsters. Uh Teamsters is like one point.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

So in the top three, okay.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

IBW, if you go on our website, we'll claim 880,000, something like that. Uh I think I have some numbers in this, roughly 100,000 bills of retirees. So if I had to make a guess, here's 750,000, 775 working on the job. Um, so a very large union, and because our dues are so high, uh, literally the wealthiest trade union in human history uh today in the year of our Lord 2026. Congratulations. I've been giving 4% of my of my of my gross income to my local for some time for that. Um I don't begrudge him too, I'm just saying that's the dues are high, you know? Um but uh he's talking about the the contract process that that that happened under under Fain, it kind of it kind of gets at me. It's kind of heartbreaking because you got the thing is you gotta understand the relationship of the building trades union member to to his or her his or her union. The apprenticeship is is is four or five years long. It's not short, right? Um like when I say uh journeyman maybe has one meaning in the word in the world that people usually use it. In our world, that means that's like the tar that's like our terminal degree, you know? Um and if you if you go through an IBW journeyman, journeymanship, uh apprenticeship, I'm sorry, if you reach journeyman status through an IBW apprenticeship or any other building trade, the most likely result is that you will spend the rest of your um of your working life, not just in the trade, not just in the union, but in that local. Um we uh uh we go to our unions for our jobs. Like our jobs come through a hiring hall. We don't we don't I've never made a resume in my life. I've never applied an electrical contract, I never will. Um we are incredibly I'm like I'm sitting here literally playing with the IBW belt buckle that I wear almost every day. Um we are we are very, very closely tied to our union in every way. Um and we work relatively dangerous jobs. Like, you know, you can look up the you can look up the you can look up the stats anytime you want to. Construction remains a dangerous job. Um we have we have a saying that you know you are your brother's keeper. So with all this in place, with all this that is the truth, um still we don't have we don't have control over our contracting. We we don't elect anybody above the local level in our union. And in fact, I'll be honest, um job pay is pretty good. I'm not I'm not complaining about my paycheck, but um for a lot of for a lot of guys, it it they they treat the union as uh a sort of uh temp agency with good benefits, you know? Um instead of this like potentially like powerful uh uh protagonizing institution that can that can teach workers who are already on the job every day, keeping each other safe, uh carrying out uh dangerous, um uh complicated work, um to move to the next step, which is change to to take on the dangerous and complicated work of changing our unions and our industries and and and everything. Um I don't know. I I'm rambling a little bit, I I realize, but like like given how central our unions are in our lives, it is not unheard of that an IBW gentleman uh upon being chucked into the drunk tank might call his hall as his one phone call, because that's the one the one phone number he has memorized, you know? Um and uh that that that we don't that we haven't worked ourselves towards towards that that that democratizing impulse that that changes people from from these people going, like I said, you know, this this outlook that it's a sort of a sort of temp agency to the powerful authors of their own of their own destiny working work working together towards it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Yeah, I I think that was so powerful. I I also think this question of like the struggle and like the the long struggle of the reform movement. We talked about it's not that old, it's still from what the the 70s. Um and then the 70s, of course, were a time we were heading into Reaganism. Um we were you know coming out of Nixonism, I don't even know, but the the kind of heyday of unions had started to collapse by the time um these reform caucuses started. Um and LaborNotes like kind of started to emerge. And LaborNotes is an institution at this point. Um, I'd like to hear about the, you know, tell our listeners about what LaborNotes is, because we are here to talk about what Labor Notes is doing, um, in particular, this new reform caucus guide, but maybe give a little bit of background on this because I do think that the history of how people started to know about reform caucuses, like out of nowhere, kind of in this sort of emerging dark place that was, you know, the Reagan era or like the precursor to, I think is gonna give a lot of good context about why why reform, right? Um, so Lisa, maybe speak to the what is Labor Notes question, and like then we'll talk a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

So Labor Notes, I think, is slightly younger than TDU, um, but it was kind of founded by the same group of same, same era, say we'll call it the same era. Yeah, same uh even the same group of left activists who um many of whom had uh taken jobs in various industries um to do rank and file organizing. And I think that really informed the perspective of Labor Notes, which started as a magazine and it's still a magazine, and we publish articles online. Um and uh we uh do a lot of uh sort of practical organizing, uh providing practical organizing resources. We also report on the labor movement. Um, and over time uh we've probably become best known for the giant conference that takes place every two years that's taking place in Chicago uh in June, and which unfortunately sold out um five weeks after we opened registration this year.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Sorry, listeners, you cannot attend unless you already have a ticket.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Um and then uh and then the thing that I actually do the most of um on or what my job mainly is, is running trainings um and supporting um workers in organizing. Like I'm on the phone a lot with reform caucus uh organizers. Um so Labor Notes is uh a media project. Um we also publish a lot of books um and an educational project. Um and it really has uh, you know, it's uh close to 50 years old. Um and I think it really has kind of um uh like you're saying, been kind of like a hub for um reform activists, um, whether or not they uh end up, you know, forming like a reform caucus or not. It's about uh our motto is like putting the movement back in the labor movement. It's for everyone who uh believes in that. We tracked um kind of a really wide uh range of uh union uh activists uh, you know, across the US and also beyond. Um and yeah, I think it's a really unique project, and I'm certainly very lucky to uh to work there.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

Yeah. Before I'd heard of the Labor Notes Conference, what I'd heard of is the Troublemaker School, which is another thing that Labor Notes is famous for, at least if you are already a union member. Um, because I think another is it is it a uh an unofficial slogan of Labor Notes that they're the troublemaking wings or the troublemaking wing of the labor movement? Is that or am I misremembering? Oh, that's another one of our slogans. Yeah. You need you have a lot of great slogans. I think that that's that's Pat. Yeah. Um Scott, how did you find out about Labor Notes? Um, I'm sure you did it take DSA or did you find out through other other channels? Like, you know, what was your what was your contact?

SPEAKER_03 34:53

It was definitely a DSA member that that told me what it was, um, now that I think about it. Uh though when exactly is a little fuzzy. Twenty years in, you know, things start to slide around a little bit. Um but but yeah, you know, um oh, you know, you so you're interested in reform for a union. Uh you you're you know, you're you're dissatisfied. You look into this. Um so so yeah, that's that's that's definitely how I heard about it.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

Um it's yeah, not always that you hit you get DSA folks on on the podcast to talk about like how all of these things come together. And I know that um Labor Notes isn't a DSA project, but a lot of people who are involved in DSA are grateful to Labor Notes for everything that it provides. Um and now we have this new reform guide, for how to make how to form a reform caucus. I'm probably saying that a little bit wrong. Um, but Lisa, you are one of the main authors of this great new resource, um, which we will have linked in the show notes. So what is what is it and and why now? And also what does it provide?

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yeah, so I think the name uh we settled on it for is how to build a union reform caucus. And uh it is um, as the title implies, targeted largely at people who are maybe thinking about building a union reform caucus, um, trying to figure out how to start one. Um, but I think there's also a lot in there for people who are at various stages of growing their reform caucus, or even at the stage where they've maybe uh run for uh leadership of their union and are trying to figure out how to navigate that, since that brings with it a whole host of new challenges. Um we talk about first, like there's like a brief overview of what a union reform caucus is. So that might be relevant even for people who aren't in unions and just want to learn more. Um, we talk about sort of what are some principles of good organizing um uh when it comes to forming a reform caucus. Um and by the way, we also uh mention, you know, you might be doing this kind of organizing, but you're not calling it a reform caucus, which um is can be the case in in some unions. Uh and uh yeah, we talk about how to get started, how to grow your reach, um, and not kind of get stuck at sort of just preaching, you know, to the choir. Um and uh, you know, the the sort of bread and butter of what we think a reform caucus um should be doing is um uh sort of being the kind of union um you want your union to be, right? Modeling how to fight the boss, um, also, you know, taking on issues, um fighting for better contracts, um, sorry, taking on issues that uh your coworkers care about. Um, and then also uh, you know, many reform caucuses organize for democratic reforms. Um they run uh or support uh candidates for union office. Uh they win office and then have to navigate uh, like I said, those challenges. Um the guide also has sections on how to navigate uh union conventions as a reform caucus and also guide to fundraising, which can be an important skill for reformers as well. So yeah, we really try to cover the range of things and um we're calling it a living document. We're hoping to get feedback on it from people who are actually using it and hoping to uh update it uh as we go along and learn more about what makes for good reform caucus organizing.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Yeah. I'm noticing um this really cool flow chart with these giant arrows. Um and uh it's it's interesting that there's also just a lot of very condensed, like classic labor notes knowledge, like sprinkled throughout. You've got the beautiful bullseye that all of us are very familiar with. Um I use it actually in political education to talk about how to bring people who are far away from you closer. Um, and also in DSA, like circulating members out of the core if they so they don't to prevent burnout and bring uh other people in. Um, but there's yeah, there's all of this incredible um knowledge about, of course, how to form a reform caucus, but also how to behave kind of in a union. Like what is it you want to model? What kind of practices, even if you're not ready for a reform caucus yet? Like what it is to be a rank and file worker who is aiming for uh transformation or who is aiming to bring people closer in. Um, Scott, if you'd had this, uh, do you feel like it would have changed anything? Um, or do you feel like how do you feel about what's in here? Obviously, we're this is so new. Um, you know, it's like, you know, I think what it was published just a few days ago or a couple weeks ago or something. So um, Scott, thoughts about this? Like if you'd had this, do you think that you would already be uh the president of U IBEW at this point? Uh and then everyone would be mad at you and organizing against you.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Uh I think you saying that you know just reveals how little people know about how the trades work. Nothing gets you mechanically.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

Just like it's not, you know, but but no, it's just it's fantastic. These are all like things that we had to individually think our think our way through collectively individually, collectively, whatever. You know what I mean? That we had to collectively think our way through like step by step as we were growing the thing, you know? Um like making a spreadsheet to hold our membership list. Like I never I didn't make a spreadsheet until I was 42 years old, and I was we'd already started crew, you know. Um I'm still kind of bad at it. Fundraising, we we did not really start taking fundraising seriously until um until last year. We take it very, very seriously now. But um I really, really like the emphasis over and over on action. Because the thing you don't want is to be to be just the kind of group that runs their mouths and puts out statements all the time. That is not that is not moving the working class forward. I'm not saying there's not a time to take a stand in a in a um to take a stand behind a set of principles which you like articulate in a in a in a public way. But I am saying that if that's the substance of what you're doing all the time, then you're you're not gonna get anywhere. You gotta talk to workers on the job. Uh, you know what? I actually I just searched for it right now, and there's a phrase I don't see in here anywhere, which is uh one-on-one is number one. Lisa, living document, you gotta go back in there.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Oh man.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

When we get some when we get some some when we get some new crew members into a local, and at this point we have members in 98 or 99 locals across uh across the IBW, um we we tell them that you know your first your first task is to find one other person, you know? And your and your second task, frankly, is to find a third person. Because without with that without like a little core of people willing to take on the things that need to be changed in in your local, you're not going to get it anywhere. And furthermore, and furthermore, because because of the way my union is structured, because changes at the international level are so far off, like the fact that this that this guide really brings it back to the sort of like day-to-day, gut level, get things changed on your job and in your local, um, is it some of the best advice that we some of the best advice that we attempt to give people every single day. I mean, that's that's a way that's the way it grows. It grows through things that actually happen um right in front of you that you can see. I I think it's I think it's great. There's some things that there's some things maybe that we would have done differently if we had access to a resource like this. But maybe I feel great that we were able to figure out most of it, most of it most of it on our own.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Well, it sounds also like this document would not have existed had it not been for reform caucuses that had to do all of this stuff. It's like a it's a collection, really, right? A condensation, a distillation. I'm just gonna say Asian, uh, an everything of like everything that everyone has learned up until this point about how to make a reform caucus, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:29

Yeah, I I I should say like um this, you know, we have like even before I got hired at Labor Notes, you know, there were attempts over the years to try to distill all this information about reform caucuses, but there was like there's just too much of it. It was like too big of a project. And um I think the reason why we got this done was it's like a collection of links. And um, we link uh a story about IBW crew organizing. And like it's really like It really is what you said. It's like the collective knowledge that we have like gleaned over the years from all these different reform efforts across all these different unions, some of which don't even exist anymore. But you know, like they helped inform the next generation of reform activists. Um, so you know, I I think you know, that's that's really what the packet is. Like we decided we were going to collect everything that Labor Notes has, um, not everything, but uh a good chunk of what Labor Notes has um published or or created um in terms of uh you know, handouts and and trainings and um even uh links to videos um and certainly many articles about uh yeah actual reform organizing.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

Yeah, I actually think it's wonderful too. And and one of the things, I mean, in my own experience having um built and then lost an election and then left because I was no longer a graduate student um and got it got my first job, um, I, you know, was very pleased to hear that Cornell did later win uh their efforts. And part of it was that they were able to, I think, um learn from our mistakes and all the things that we did. We also did a lot of successful things. The thing was is that we had a really, really, really aggressive anti-union campaign. Um they spent twice as much money uh fighting it as they normally would, or maybe even more, I'm not sure. But we spent twice as much money trying to fight them. Um, and it was, you know, I like to say sometimes that everything I learned about organizing was by losing a union, you know, like essentially like losing a union because first of all, it was very close. Um, and that was very painful. But then also it was all this years of knowledge and all this time spent, right? And then you guys are giving the rest of the world, like, here is the blood, sweat, and tears of everyone who's learned and everything that, you know, Labor Notes has been able to write down about it in a condensed form. And I actually think that's a really great, I mean, you can't do this with everything, but a really great model of political education, right? Like where it's like you're not just, hmm, I have an idea. I think I will put it down on paper now and then force everyone to read it. It's more like I'm going to observe, I'm going to observe widely what it is that workers are doing, what the working class is doing in real time in these places, out of a sense of we need to do this, right? And then allowing other people to learn from that. Like and it, and and not just saying this is what you have to do, but also saying this is what we're we're we know about. And now also go forth and um take what you will from it and try to try to deploy it and then come back to us when you have a reform union and we'll change anything that needs to be changed. I don't know if you really want people, you know, knocking your door down, Lisa, to be like, um, excuse me, but I would like to change this bullet point.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Yeah, no, email us at labor notes at labor notes.org or Lisa at labor notes.org. We are collecting that feedback. But I mean, I think what you just said is actually exactly how Labor Notes conceives of its mission, which is to like reflect back to workers what are the what they're doing. We do that through the articles, we do that through panels at the conference, um, through resources like this. And I think it's just like, you know, we're almost like a, you know, we're like facilitators, we're also like almost like a conduit, you know, so that, you know, you know, Scott, you're saying you were inspired by um the teachers organizing in Virginia. Maybe some other group of workers in Virginia is gonna like listen to this podcast and hear about, you know, the electrical workers who are organizing and they're gonna be like, oh, I guess I could do that in my union too.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

Yeah, I hope so. That would be an incredibly cool use of a podcast. There's so many stupid uses of podcasts, so that would actually be a pretty cool use of a podcast. Um, actually, this question of like how we learn from each other or how we do this work, right? Like um Labor Notes is a model of this reflection. You know, political education in DSA is often thought of as like we need to learn from the greats. I think I'm an educator, so like everything, I'm very eclectic in my methods, but like um this idea of reflection or like being in a position and then like seeing yourself in the other person's eyes, right? And then wondering what they see, and then trying to like incorporate that back in is something that's I think really important. And it actually comes to mind that this the rank and file strategy is from an article um by Kim Moody called The Rank and File Strategy that was published first, I think, in 2000. Um, and it was has been republished um since then and is a foundational theory for socialists to get involved in the modern reform caucus movement. And through the years, this strategy or modified version of this strategy has become a centerpiece of the labor strategy in DSA. So currently, you know, DSA, the largest socialist organization in the US, is responsible, at least in some part, for encouraging socialists to go out and get rank and file jobs in strategic sectors to advance a socialist current within the labor movement, which of course is then connected to reform caucuses because a socialist in a labor movement who is committed to their union, who's able to like bring people in, like do the one-on-one, you know, bring bring folks in, can potentially successfully help lead a reform campaign. Um, so you know, you've both read the Moody article, of course. I don't know how often or how how recent, but how much do you think this strategy applies today? Obviously, we have a lot of people in Labor Notes who are, you know, diehards, uh rank and filers, uh, rank and file strategy uh disciples. Um, but it's, you know, 25, 26 years old at this point. Um, do you think that it still kind of has the same promise? Um, and how has your own experience been? Um, and then we're gonna ask a question or maybe remind us of the question here about what would you think it's the most important for socialists um who to think about if they're workers in unions? But yeah, just kind of in general, like what do you think? How do you think this applies? And like, what do you think socialists should be doing um if they are in a union, if they would like to form a union, or even if they're just, you know, uh maybe trying to offer some of these things? I see Scott like, you know, using a tool to do this, and I'm like, what do you want to do? Do you want to like wrench the socialists into the reform movement? Yeah, let me just rephrase that really quick. Like Moody's rank and file strategy, how do you think it applies today? And what do you think socialists should be doing in this moment that could potentially like, you know, take advantage of this all of this collective knowledge for reform caucuses? Scott, do you want to speak to that?

SPEAKER_03 51:26

Uh sure. And look, I'm just an incredibly fidgety guy. There's nothing I can do about that.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

No, I just thought it was funny because you're holding up this like incredibly evil looking tool in Gordon.

SPEAKER_03 51:37

This is this is the basic tool of an electrician.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Uh I know, I can see what it is.

SPEAKER_03 51:43

Uh so if you're a socialist, um, what you shouldn't be doing is is focusing mostly on running your mouth. Like, just frankly, just I'm just being just being dead honest. Like, get into a union. Do it now. Do it do it yesterday. Like, once upon I mean that we we we we still I guess we still call it industrializing. Um but this is if we if we truly believe that it's the it's a working class, I'm staring at a picture of Alexander Schlappnick off on my wall as I say this. Um if we truly believe that it's that it's the working class that will be the agent of change, right? Then then you have to get yourself as as far into the working class as possible. Now look, if you're a teacher, you know, be a teacher, but be a union teacher and fight hard for your union, you know, or any other union you can imagine. Now look, I gotta sit here and plug the and plug the the manual trades, you know, the blue uh blue collar, whether we're talking about building trades, whether we're talking about transportation, whether we're talking about warehouse. United States is the second largest industrial power in human history. There's 50 million people that work blue collar. I hear I hear socialists, people who supposedly care about the working class, say every day that America doesn't make anything. America makes everything. Um so if you I think I think I uh personally, this is my real opinion. And given and I and I uh given the the propensity of folks in those trades to be uh you know unfortunately reactionary, um you want to change that if you really want to change like that base that that you know that that uh I'm trying to say substructure, that base of the economy, get a blue-collar job. They also tend to pay pretty good, to be perfectly honest. Like um get a get a job where you can organize together with other workers to put to to really put the screws down on the economy that the that the the powerful folks in in this in in this world have have have uh have mismanaged and misled and and and made us built and made us build for their purposes rather than ours. Um that that should be the relationship of the of the socialist to the labor movement.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Yeah, I'll add to that. Uh totally agree with everything Scott said. Um yeah, and then once you get that job, you know, like be normal. I think that can be some summed up and like, you know, be respected by your coworkers. Don't don't, you know, run your mouth, you know, all of all of that. Be good at your job. This is like all of like the really, you know, this is advice to give to SALT, right? People who um uh take a job in a workplace to to organize a union. So if you take a job uh to uh organize in a workplace that already has a union, like same thing, right? Um learn how to be a good organizer, you know, do read secrets of a successful organizer.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

Wondering when that was coming.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

Yeah, I know. I was gonna say the reason why one-on-ones are not mentioned in the guide is because I refer everyone to secrets. Uh everyone should should take secrets, read the read the book. Um but uh but yeah, no, I mean, uh I think this is what's, you know, there, I think people have been industrializing, uh, you know, taking rank and file jobs on the left for for a long time now. And I think that the thing that one of the things that separates uh the the effective organizers from from the ones who've been less effective is is like, you know, like I think taking this advice and um learning how to like really trying to be like a respected leader, right? Um with with influence over your coworkers. Um and yeah, then I think once you um are in a place where you're starting to to gain that respect, um uh, you know, looking looking around and like seeing what kind of uh reform current um, you know, what what needs to be changed, right? What kind of organizing could get you there and um if there are if there's sort of a refer reform current that's building or that you could help build. Um I think I think that is the most important task for the socialist um as a worker. Um and then in term of uh the rank and file strategy, it's funny you reminding me that was written in 2000 because I just so much associate it with like the projects of TDU and Labor Nest. I was like, oh man, that it must be from like the 70s, but no, it wasn't actually written then. Um and you know, I it's been a while since I read it, but I I think like the the sort of main um problem that one of the main problems that it's raising, right, is like the separation between um the socialist move movement and and the labor movement. Um and uh I think uh that there certainly still is that separation, maybe less of it in some ways, right, than than in the 2000s because of in part because of all these um I think the efforts of uh of DSA members uh in in part. Um but uh yeah, I don't know. I I think uh it still still feels very relevant. Uh I think the main thrust of it still feels very relevant to me.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Yeah. I mean, a couple things on that, which is, you know, how do we how do we know what is just running our mouth and what is actually like an opportunity to open the door to a coworker, right? I think so much of it has to do with being politically developed yourself, right? Like knowing kind of what's going on in the world, what people really care about. And I would just encourage everyone to become, you know, not a news junkie, but like, you know, kind of know what people, you know, what might be on people's minds, of course. Um the there could be a whole other podcast about, you know, like that maybe there should be, or like a whole other episode about like, you know, different experiences, like, you know, doing reform caucusing or like, you know, trying to like organize in the workplace. There's actually a lot of labor podcasts out there that are really great that like talk to talk to people about this stuff too. But I think it kind of all also goes back to political education is also about listening and also about like kind of circulating things back to people. And I think that's also very, very much in common with how to be a good organizer. It's not about preaching to somebody and expecting them to listen to you, it's about actually opening the door for dialogue and making yourself, yes, like respected and also people know you're a person who listens, um, not just a person who is, you know, uh full of a bunch of knowledge that they can't wait to like spit on you, right? Um, and I I don't think that that's the typical socialist, right? Like I do think though that there is this separation between the socialist and the labor movement. And a lot of people might have the idea that people in the trades or you know, people who are in uh unions who are doing, you know, less intellectual or whatever be uh work, or even just people who who are not socialists, um, somehow don't have the capacity to think about themselves as um agents, right? Um, but everyone does. And that's what we believe as socialists is that we believe everybody has the capacity to lead their own lives and that they have the capacity to be political and social agents in the world, and they have the capacity for creativity and um all the things that we believe everyone's capable of. And like that's what the labor movement, the troublemaking wing especially, is for is helping people understand themselves as real movers of at least their own lives, if not history, right? Um, and we're so grateful to um LaborNotes. Like I said, I don't want to like sound like this is like a big Labor Notes, like uh, you know, advertisement, but we are, you know, like I think that a lot of DSA members, without even knowing it, have adopted a lot of the materials Labor Notes has put out over the years into their own organizing practices. I certainly have. And I think that would have been the case even if I hadn't come out of the union movement into a more organized socialist movement. Um, is there anything else that you'd like to share with our listeners about things that we already know? Read the pamphlet. We already know secrets of a successful organizer. But is there anything else you'd like to recommend for people to kind of get a hold of or read after this?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

People should go to labor notes.org/slash store to see uh everything we put out. Um uh we have two books coming out this year. One just came out, uh Ellen David Friedman's uh book that she's been working on. Uh wow, I'm so sorry, Ellen. The name is escaping me right now. But uh it's it'll be in the show notes. It's fine. It will be in the show notes. I'm so sorry. Uh it's uh it's really great. Um and um Ellen contributed a lot to the Caucus Guide as well, and um has been an enormous uh source of support for so many uh reform activists. Um and we are also putting out a book on running for union office uh based on the TDU book, um, but updated kind of with more general advice um for people, you know, outside of the Teamsters. Um, and that'll be coming out in a few months. So those are both books that I think will be relevant for people. Um, you know, uh in the middle of reforming their unions, um it's uh, you know, Ellen's book is about how to stick it out for for the long haul. Um, and you know, reform is is a long haul project. And then of course running for union office is is something that we need many more people to do, and it's it's an important project uh for reformers.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:50

Thanks, Lisa. Scott, do you have anything you'd like to recommend before we wrap it up?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:54

It's not gonna be a book. I'm gonna talk about two brothers of mine. Uh if that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:00

Okay. Um, these are two two fellow crew co-founders, uh Chris and Colin. We're both out of IBW Triple Six in Richmond, Virginia. Um again, just two two very dumb, very normal white dudes just like me. Um who ended up being stewards on some of our some of the biggest jobs in our local. I think each one of these guys would call call themselves a socialist, but but neither one of them is a member of anything, uh, of anything other than crew, that is. Um Colin was was a steward on this the second steward on the big maybe the biggest job my locals ever had. There might have we might have had 700 people out there. Um and he like spent every day finding new ways to uh to go after the contractor, to make sure that to make sure they were actually following the contract, to make sure they were actually getting getting water out to people, to make sure they were actually following the brakes, um, to make sure they were actually respecting the over the overtime list, so on and so on and so on. And the great majority of the people that were getting put on that job were a new phenomenon in our local, which was a lot of very recent immigrants from Central America and Venezuela. Um and he figured out how to do the thing that our local had already always broken his teeth on, which was to um to enroll members in Spanish, you know. Um Colin does not speak Spanish, you know, um, but he figured out how to how to find the tools to make that happen. Um and uh then uh uh the other one, uh Chris, became the steward at the second biggest job in the local, I think it's the biggest job in the local right now, um took that took that ball and just ran with it and figured out um all the ways to take all these all these new members from groups who had never been included in our union and um like figure out a way to make them like full members of a union who like fully participate in the life of the union with a clear path to journeyman status for each one. A lot of these a lot of these uh uh uh brothers and sisters had too much experience to really go through the apprenticeship, but that we have an alternate path to journeyman status. He keeps on uh on his laptop that he takes to work every day uh a spreadsheet tracking every single person on this program's hours to make sure that they walk up the steps and get to journeyman in order. Um and it's just it's like uh it it's it's amazing to watch these these two guys who, again, just as dumb and normal as me, right? The way that they have like transformed our local probably permanently, probably brought in 300 people into our local between the two of them. Um like I I wish I could make them available to everybody to talk to to talk to them about how to transform their local. But the the larger point I'm making is that like if we can do it, if if if guys like us can do it, anyone can. Um and uh I want folks to I want folks to know that that like that that being normal does not preclude you from from changing things.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:52

Thank you so much, uh Lisa and Scott. So appreciate having you on. And thanks to our production crew, Emma, Michael, and Tim, who put all this together. Class is a podcast of DSA's National Political Education Committee, or NPEC, which works to expand the knowledge of DSA members and non-members in the service of winning the struggle for socialism and democracy. You can find out more about NPEC by searching for us online or following us on social media, but the best way to find out what our committee is up to is by signing up for Red Letter, NPEC's monthly newsletter. If you aren't already, you can become a DSA member by following the link in the podcast description. Okay, until next time. Solidarity.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

Wer mit Lüge und Schmutz sich verbindet, wer das Volk und den Frieden besteht, wer die Fakten des Krieges entzündet, hat sein eigenes Leben verspielt. An der Ostbahn, an der Weichse, an der Wolldau, an der Spring, stehe Waffenmödergenose, auf das Leben weiß