Michael Johns (Gybe Recruitment) Confessions of a Recruiter #73

Embark on a thrilling journey with Michael from Gybe Recruitment as he unveils the twists and turns of trading corporate security for the entrepreneur's thrill. After a fulfilling decade at Michael Page, he bravely launches his own firm, offering a glimpse into the mindset required for such a bold move. Learn about the delicate art of maintaining cherished relationships while carving out a new path, the strategic selections behind industry shifts, and the profound impact personal investment has on client connections and business success. Michael's story is a treasure map for those yearning to navigate the transition from employee to owner with their compass pointing towards freedom and fulfillment.

Tune in as Michael gets candid about the dance of partnership and the growth of his recruitment enterprise. The discussion pirouettes around the nuances of choosing a business name, the significance of branding, and the choreography involved in establishing a balanced partnership. He delves into the tactical steps taken towards securing a new office space, embracing the challenges, and the ethical quandaries faced when managing candidate relations. This episode is a must-listen for those curious about the precision and grace needed to scale a business while keeping the human touch in recruitment.

Strap in for an episode that catapults you from local to national stages, traversing the landscape of high-level recruiting strategies and geographic boundaries. Discover how Michael's Brisbane-based firm extended its arms to embrace opportunities across Australian cities, reinforcing the idea that a small, independent agency can compete with the giants. Michael imparts wisdom on the power of specialisation in recruitment, the balancing act of billing versus management, and the long-term vision that should drive every aspiring business owner. This is not just a conversation; it's an expedition into the heart of entrepreneurial success.

· Our Website is: xrecruiter.io

Transcript

Blake: 0:00

Welcome back to another episode of Confessions of a Recruiter. We just had an awesome episode with Michael from Jibre recruitment. We spoke about how he transitioned from 10 years at Page being essentially part of the furniture and then going out on his own and working for himself, how he approaches new business and a whole lot of other juicy stuff. So make sure you tune in and listen to the whole episode, because it gets super, super fun.

Declan: 0:34

Well, michael, mate, thanks for coming on, no worries, thanks for having me. So, mate, 11 years with Michael Page. You started your career originally as a graduate at Michael Page and now you're the director and part owner of Jibre Consulting, and you guys specialize in mainly digital marketing and sales recruitment. Yeah, absolutely Awesome. And, mate, just like us, we're sales recruiters too.

Blake: 0:57

Yeah, we're so well-competitors right now. That's typically what we do on the podcast. We try and just get the inside scoop with our competitors and figure out how we can have one up. No, I'm only kidding. So yeah, you've got a really interesting background. You're essentially part of the furniture at Page. Really really long time. What was the driving factor to have a successful 10-plus year work experience there and then decide, you know what, I'm going to go out of my own? Was there anything in particular that happened?

Michael: 1:30

Not particularly one point in time, I think, for me in my background. I originally started there as a grad. I went to uni, studied and then saw a graduate opportunity. It was the first job, first proper corporate job I've only ever had, and I think I stayed there for so long because I was given so many different opportunities, so much development, learning, development, training recruited in a few different teams, had a few different roles. So whilst I was at the one place for 11 years it almost felt I sat there and reflected, kind of going well, this would be the same as if I left and started somewhere else, because I recruited finance for a number of years, then I launched our digital desk and I took on marketing, then I took on technology. So things were always constantly changing.

Michael: 2:16

But I think why I made the move is just over time I probably achieved everything I wanted to achieve there and I got thinking to myself. I almost felt personally like a goldfish in a fishbowl, you know, and like, hey, maybe I am the alpha goldfish here and doing an amazing job, but I'm still just in the fishbowl and there's a massive ocean out there and I don't actually know what else is out there, and so I wanted to challenge myself just to see, am I probably as good as I think I am, or am I just good in the little fishbowl that I'm in? So that was playing on my mind. And then we had a couple of people at the similar level to me at the time. You know, I was always honest and just chat to them about where I'm at, and Libby and I I think it was one time where we're at a lunch, I think it was and we were just chatting about where we're at in our career.

Michael: 3:10

And then she mentioned to me I'm maybe I think I might do something different at some stage, and I was kind of like, oh, me too. And it's kind of just like opportunistic that we just both kind of started. This just sparked up and we're like, oh, maybe we should chat about this a bit further because I could work with you and you could work with me. And it was probably about nine months in the making from that initial conversation to we actually pulled the trigger and made it all happen. But I think we're so, we're so similarly aligned in, I guess, the way that we approach recruitment, the way we approach our clients and candidates, our ethos that we just felt, you know, it was just the right place at the right time and we're just at the right point of our career.

Blake: 3:51

What did? What did Paige think about this? They're two longest standing big hitters, all both bailed and started their own recruitment agency. Was there any animosity from Paige? How did you handle? Did you tell him when you resigned? Or did you go oh look, I'm just, we're just taking a bit of time off, or what? What happened with that resignation period?

Michael: 4:07

Yeah, it went well. They took it really well. I am a big believer in you always want to leave things in a in a better place, and how you found them. And you know Brisbane's a small place, you never know who may end up where. But the time when I resigned, I'm trying to remember what my exact words were, but you know I was very open and honest and that I achieved everything I wanted to achieve and was just ready, ready for that change as an outside the fishbowl, and it was a great departure, like they were so lovely. You know, I think they were probably a bit shocked and a bit sad. You know there probably was going to be a bit of a hole, but I made sure. You know I left everything in a great place. So I think, while they were probably sad like there was no animosity or anger they understood my reasoning, which was great yeah awesome and, mate, you've said you've launched multiple deaths across different industries.

Declan: 5:06

What's the what's the process or checks and balances that you go through when you know changing from accounting to digital, or then to technology and marketing? How do you like? How have you done it? Was it just like map the market and hit the phones, or is there any method to the madness on how you've been able to successfully move industries?

Michael: 5:24

Yeah with. So when I went from finance to digital like digital for me I studied marketing, I started comms 15 years ago, so it was always like a passion, like a general interest of mine from a personal level. And when I saw an opportunity there, I literally was like I want to launch digital. I'm personally interested in this. I'm not personally invested in meeting accountants why not, mate? That's so fun. Yeah, you meet the odd Jim there. But you know, I felt like more. It was a job and you know, and that's what you go there to do, whereas, you know, within digital, it's an emerging space. It's always growing.

Michael: 6:00

I personally find it fascinating and people often say they can see my eyes light up when I'm talking to those people. So when I made the move, I think my you know, my kind of checklist was a do. I believe that I have the right ingredients to be successful. There is there a market there. And then I remember at the time I sat down and I think Libby at the time was my boss at Michael Page and I just said I'm probably going to spend probably the next two months, not make. I don't believe I'll make any money, but I'm going to go out and meet 400 people in digital in Brisbane, because that way that's the quickest way I can understand who does what, how much they're paid, what the trends are and quickly become a subject matter expert in that space to then carry that credibility to start pitching for business and filling roles.

Declan: 6:45

Wow, 400 people in two months. Yeah, did you do it? Yeah, pretty close.

Michael: 6:50

Pretty close.

Declan: 6:50

And that's clients, candidates.

Michael: 6:52

Yeah, like predominantly candidates, but the candidates would would range anywhere from entry level up to senior candidates. Who would be? Who are clients? Yeah, who would be on the market themselves.

Declan: 7:03

And you know most people would cringe or sink back into their seat knowing that someone's you know thinking about building a desk and they're going out to meet 400 people in two months.

Declan: 7:11

I think people will be listening to this, going what the hell, but how did you, what did you take from that and what were the results past those two months? Because, mate, that's like to achieve like what we've learned immediate success. You've got to do something drastic in a short amount of time, get a result and then implement and then go again. So was that top-down? Is that what you've just always known? Like, where did the 400 thing come from and what were the results after those two months?

Michael: 7:36

Yeah, I think it came back to kind of going well, if I meet, I always yeah. I think what I've learned in my career recruitment is you work backwards from what you want your end result to be. So if I go, great, if I want to bill, you know, let's just whatever figure you choose, like a hundred K in a quarter, then if you, hypothetically, if you average fees, 10 K, that's 10 jobs. But how many jobs do I feel at that point in time you might go, okay, I feel one in four. So really I need 40 jobs, plus probably a few speculative ones that might drop out. So probably need 60 jobs. How many people I need to talk to to actually get 60 jobs on? And then quite quickly you know when you reverse engineer it, I got up to 400. And so from the 400, I definitely felt it paid dividends because I think in the second month I already had some work that had come on just by out meeting people and being in sheer numbers, just law of averages?

Michael: 8:28

Yeah, absolutely. And I thought you know one phrase that's always stuck with me with one of the directors at Michael Page is you've got to get out in the traffic. Yeah, and that's exactly where I saw myself. If I get out in the traffic, you're there, you're seen. So therefore, then things will just come your way. And you know, if I think back to me in those 400, like they still pay dividends in my career, you know, five, six years later from when I did that, because people remember and you know, if you leave a good impression and you're not asking for anything, they will remember that in time to come and go. Oh, that was a good conversation. He shared something with me, didn't ask for anything in return.

Michael: 9:05

Well, we'll you know, maybe I'll go back to him see if he can help me out now when I'm in a time of need.

Blake: 9:09

Well, what did you talk about? So I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of building a new desk let's call it a sales desk in digital and I want to go meet 400 sale digital salespeople myself. Are you approaching them just to say, hey, I just want to build a relationship and get to know you? Do you have 15 minutes to have a coffee or what's? What's the reason for reaching out and sitting down with them, even if you don't have a role? Because a lot of recruiters are stuck in this. If I don't have a role for someone, there's no point in me talking to them. So, like, what was that like for you?

Michael: 9:43

Yeah, it's. It comes back to what you can offer them. Like I always, every time I speak to someone, I always think from their side, what's in it for me and, even now, my career. Like a vast majority of people I meet, I'm probably not meeting about a role that I'm recruiting, but knowing that one day I will have the right role for them. So what I talk to them about is I want to meet you, to talk, you know, understand more about your career, what your next career move looks like. Provide you with some insight on the market, what what's happening in the different industries, how your salary aligns with what else is out there. So provide you with some CV advice.

Michael: 10:17

So straight away they go wow, I'm getting all of these things and you're giving up half an hour or an hour of your time and you've got 10 years of recruitment experience. Wow, this is, this is great, and they're actually quite excited about that. But at the same time, I'm not saying I'm meeting you about a job, so I'm not actually promising them anything in return. And I love that, yeah, and then that way they're quite receptive to it, because they kind of go great, there's something for me. And then, and I'm sitting there going well great they'll become on my database. I get all this more marketing information and ultimately, when I do get a job, then I've got so many more candidates that already know and I'm on the front foot. That's awesome.

Blake: 10:54

So so really the the well. The approach is look, let's catch up, learn more about you. I'm going to give you all this info, help you with your CV, see if your salary is all good, and when I do have something, who knows, I might be able to reach back out and find you something exactly that you're after.

Michael: 11:12

Yeah, absolutely. And the key line that I said a lot of people in the moment like if I don't know who you are, I'm not going to consider you for a role.

Blake: 11:18

And it's as simple as that. And then most people go.

Michael: 11:22

Well, I want you to know me then.

Blake: 11:23

Yeah, gotcha. So what about now that you've done those 400 meetings? Do you have you taken some sort of KPIs of meet two people a day, type of thing from page or what? What is your now goal, just from a daily, weekly routine or workflow, to meet people?

Michael: 11:42

Yeah, it's probably probably not as robust in terms of OK, these are the set numbers we want to achieve each week, because it does fluctuate, based based on how many roles, because I think what comes back to us and a job out probably pointed difference is our tenure in recruitment in Brisbane in marketing and digital and sales, and what we've been doing, and then therefore, how quickly we can turn that around. So, if we have enough work, we're kind of we're not going to spend our time going out and meeting more people or trying to get get more jobs on. It's kind of let's just deliver on these people that we're in partnership with at the moment and the quicker we do that, the more reputable you know. The more reputable we are and the higher credibility get and the more likely we're going to get work in return again.

Blake: 12:28

What was the? What was the feedback from clients you probably had worked with for years at page? And then you're out, you've started your own business, you've updated your LinkedIn profile and you like your beauty. All right, this is my next adventure. What was, what was the previous clients you've worked with? What was their receptiveness? With a like, oh yeah, we've got some roles, or did they stay wanting to work with page to fill their roles, or what's that? What was that relationship transition like I think to be?

Michael: 12:56

honest we were. Just, I was probably blown away by the overwhelming support, like because I think, once again, like recruitment is human to human content. People buy into you and I think, if anything, people are proud, like good on you, like you've, you've, you've taken a leap of faith really to start your own thing. If anything, they, they kind of want to support you and see you succeed. Yep, it's like when I can put a new job on LinkedIn, I'm like that's awesome, like great, like because you're personally happy, you're happy for them.

Michael: 13:23

So I felt you know you do get. You do get a lot that kind of want to see you succeed and not necessarily follow you across, but I guess, when the right time comes, if there is an opportunity, have a conversation. There's other accounts that you know, that you're on big panels and things like that where it is more of a transactional relationship and it is. It is what it is, yeah, but I guess it really does in hindsight, looking back, it really does show you where you have made a difference and really created one of those, those strong bonds with your clients and do you reckon your relationships have gotten stronger and deeper now that you're out on your own?

Declan: 14:01

Yeah, absolutely.

Michael: 14:02

Yeah, and I think what I said to a lot of clients at the moment, like, yes, our relationship we have is professional you know my business and your business but also for me it's personal, because the money, that the commitment they're giving me to fill this job, like at the end of the day it's, it's what helps provide for my family.

Blake: 14:22

So much Exactly.

Michael: 14:24

If I feel it absolutely like, if I say, yes, I'm going to feel it, I'm going to feel it and I can give them that absolute confidence and and I will commit and, however long it takes me, I'll find that person for them, because I don't have a salary to fall back on. So it's kind of like the everything is. You know, you have the high highs, you have the lower lows, but I wouldn't change it for the world. It's funny that. Sorry, mate, that's all right.

Blake: 14:51

It's funny that that mindset shift when, when you're in the fishbowl and you just punching out rolls because it's what you should be doing as part of your job, and then you are literally doing the exact same thing, but for yourself, the meaning that it has on you. You become more. I don't know you can't you become more sensitive to your relationships, your value your relationships more because they mean that they impact you, and they mean so much when it's your own business that it becomes a little bit more exciting. I feel like the flame almost comes back where. You're like, oh, this guy really wants to support me in my business and give me this job, whereas you know when you're in the fishbowl it's like, oh yeah, here's another one. Yep, beauty, that's going to get on the board, where's the next one? And then you, just you just too much in your lane where you're not thinking holistically about these relationships. Have you found that?

Michael: 15:44

Yeah, and I think I think I could be. I think I can be my true, authentic self. Like not that I was scared of Consequences working for a big corporate, but you always kind of have them the back of your mind of, okay, I'm representing this big global brand, so I want to do the right thing by them, whereas when it's your own business, you're the boss. So it's kind of like I can be me and I'm comfortable being me and whether that's good or bad. For, however, people perceive that I can be my true, authentic self.

Michael: 16:13

I love that and I think that therefore then makes those Relationships deeper with the people that you do connect with. And you know, everyone's not friends with everyone, so there's clients that probably they not connect with me, but then you've got other clients that you just connect so well that you like this is better than just a job like this is a yeah, I love it so much and you can tell me, your face lights off.

Blake: 16:37

So what is life now? Look what is life like outside of the fishbowl. You wanted to get out of the fishbowl. You're out of the fishbowl. You're in this big blue ocean. What's it all about?

Michael: 16:46

That's great like yeah, hopefully my goldfish getting bigger. But I think, yeah, it's, it's nice because I think you can. I have great. I have great balance between Work and home life, that flexibility of making the right decisions, of when I want to do what. Yeah, the. And I think also like working with someone else. I never wanted to work by myself, like yeah.

Michael: 17:14

People often like, oh, why don't you just go do it yourself? My brother said me a number of times oh, you could just go do this yourself. But I've I'm a big team player and I always love just that, that collaboration aspect. So I think you know that's probably one thing I look back on and value so much as being able to work with someone like Libby. We're, we're both probably quite similar and have the same ethos. So, yeah, we both sit there and go. There's no regret. People often ask us oh, have you ever woken up and have that day of gone? Oh, what have I done? But we haven't had it. Yeah, people, some people tell me it'll still come one day, but at the moment, like every day, I wake up like this is this is great, I love my job, I love what I'm doing and, yeah, I, yeah, sometimes maybe struggle with the thought of hey, would I Would if I had to go back and work for someone else. How would that go?

Declan: 17:57

Yeah, it's probably like the impact and fulfillment I think is the missing piece. Yeah, and then what about with With Libby? What's what's gonna be the plans moving forward? Are you guys wanting to scale? Is it traditionally a perm business? Do you have any contractors?

Michael: 18:13

Yeah, at the moment where we're predominantly perm, we got a small contracting business, nice, and it's more as yeah, as requirements come up with, yeah, as requirements come up with our different clients. It's like, yeah, we can, we can do that, like we have the ability to have contractors, but it hasn't been a dedicated focus. We know there's a market there but it's all about, you know, just make sure we do it right. And Temp for us is something we may look at scaling in the future. You know we've both worked purely in temp desks before, so we have a really good, robust understanding of how to do that and how that works. But it's all about the right timing and if we have the right person.

Michael: 18:51

But I think for the time being we always made a pact, like when we started first three years, just the two of us. We really. The phrase lifestyle business is probably not the right, the right idea, but we just wanted to make sure Just the two of us can do or, you know, can get the business established really humming well. We get a good satisfaction, good work-life balance. You know, paid fairly, yep, that was the initial plan. And then probably from three years onwards, and we'll start to kind of go Okay, well, what? What does next look like for us? Do we, do we scale? Do we take the same? Do we just be a small to medium-sized business but just be great at what we do? Like that's probably the next. You know, that's for us. That's just under 18 months away.

Declan: 19:30

Nice, and how did you come up with job? Is Libby a huge sailing fan as well?

Blake: 19:35

No, it's a has to be.

Michael: 19:40

It was actually her idea but, like it's, probably one of the hardest things was coming up with a business name. Oh, like it, we thought be the easiest and it turned out to probably be the toughest thing that we've done. Because we just, every time you think of a name, we like Google it, see if someone else is registered, you know someone's thought of that, someone sort of that, and you go through, like the. You know the ancient Greek mythology names, you go through the Latin names.

Michael: 20:07

That up, taken, taken, taken, taken. And then we kind of got to a point and the Libby was like oh, you did sailing for about seven years, there any sailing words? Because I always said you want something unique, so people remember it. And I kind of said, oh, here's a, here's a range of different words, maybe. What was the list mate? Oh, like spinnaker.

Declan: 20:27

Yeah, probably things like spinnaker or mast.

Blake: 20:33

Yeah, nothing, nothing, nothing too glamorous.

Michael: 20:36

And then, yeah, and there was all this tack, tack, tack doesn't really sound good for when you're trying to give a good service. So then when I said, jibes, oh, that looks pretty good. What's a job?

Blake: 20:44

Yeah, what is a job a job.

Michael: 20:46

So jibes is where the easy way to explain is where you change the direction of your boat and the back of your boat goes through the eye of the breeze, so your sail changes sides, so you're jibing, you're jibing. Yeah, it's a move, it's a maneuver.

Declan: 20:58

So that's what, that's what law connect did at the end to win it.

Michael: 21:01

this year's Sydney, no, but last year's oh they might, I'd have to say, is driving a winning movement?

Blake: 21:08

Is it just jibed through the through the finish?

Declan: 21:10

line. Well, you're tacking because you cross the, there's attack.

Michael: 21:13

There's a tack and there's a jib so if you think, yeah. So tack is where the front of your boat goes through the breeze, because you can't sail directly into the wind, so you have to go from the left to the right or right to left. The front of your boat goes through, that's called attack, and if your back of your boat goes through, it's called a jibe.

Michael: 21:27

Oh, and so we came up with like four letters. It's good, it's short, it's short is the best mate. And then and then we kind of had a big debate on how do we spell it. Do we spell it like it's spelled in sailing or do we spell it jibe? But because for people look for now phonetically and go I can pronounce it, but then People go I could be having a jibe at someone, which can be a negative connotation.

Declan: 21:49

So then we're like no, keep it to the sailing the amount of things that go through your head when you try to pick a name.

Michael: 21:54

Hey, and then and then. But you know, and we love it now. But I think it's kind of unique because some people go is it? It's a jibby? Is it guy be, is it yeah? That's a guy like Joe, like there's so many different ways pronounced, but then I see they go. That's good because it's memorable to conversation.

Blake: 22:08

Yeah, totally yeah for sure, and so we did have a quick conversation before the podcast around what went through your mind when Working out a 50-50 partnership, because we've spoken to recruiters who have gone into business With each other as 50-50 ones, a billo ones, a manager. There's a bit of a disconnect on who values what. We speak to recruiters all the time that that reach out and go hey look, I don't know if I should be going into business with myself or with with a colleague, similar to what you've done. Hmm, what kind of conversations did you have around protecting yourselves if you know there is future Disconnect or you become, you drift, you drive apart.

Michael: 22:53

Yeah, absolutely. And I think we, as it like yeah, I said was nine months in the making from like initial, I guess, spark, and then we had a number of meetings and planning sessions about what we're wanting to do, who's going to do what, how we're going to do it, and I think that was really important to to clearly map that out. And then we got, when we got to the point before we're about to launch, then we we put in place a shareholders agreement, so it's, you know, legally binding. You work out how many percentage shares each person has. If anything does happen, you know whether someone wants to leave the business one day or you know there is a disagreement. You've actually got a legal document to fall back on, because I think, yeah, it's always Rosie in the beginning, but people say, yeah, it's always times where it gets tough and and someone will Maybe be billing more than another person, and that the person who's billing more gets a bit upset, or someone's doing more in one Area than the other, and I think for us it gives us that, that confidence We've got something to fall back on.

Michael: 23:52

But I think also, for us it's it's it's keeping each other accountable. So every, every quarter, we have like we have a strategic meeting where both of us we go get a, we work, share space, we sit down and go what are our strategic goals? Who's going to do what? What do we want to achieve in the next three months? So we know and we document that. We save it on our Chair drive. So we both got as a reference point. So it's probably taking all of those really strong, I guess, management traits from page and implementing in our own business, even though there's two of us and you know there's no one else we have to manage. But it holds ourselves accountable.

Declan: 24:26

That's really good, because a lot of first-time business owners and you know I'm I did the exact same thing. I did none of that. I'd never had any management experience. But a lot of people just pass that off. God, it's just us two, let's just crack on. Yeah, so you're laying proper foundations from the beginning.

Michael: 24:40

Yeah, absolutely.

Michael: 24:42

Yeah, as it grows, it's gonna be good, and I think that was it because we sat there and going well, if we're gonna hire more people one day, we want to have, we want to have all of this set set out. So then when we hire some, we go, well, great, this is all. These are the foundations, these are the processes, and we are an attractive agency for someone to want to join, and I think it just holds ourselves accountable. You know, every Monday we we jump on a meeting, go great, this is what we both want to do for the week, this is what we want to achieve. On Friday we catch up great, how have we gone with what we wanted to achieve? You know, we both probably have different agendas, but at least the other person holds them accountable. And that probably comes back to why we both wanted to go into business with someone else Rather than, you know, having to self-manage. It's just easier for us and now in our DNA, just easy to help. I breathe that success.

Blake: 25:30

Yeah, it's interesting because when I, when I started Vendito, it was just me and I always had almost probably a scarcity mindset of like, oh, if you have another business owner, you only own 50% of it, you get 50% less money, like all these kind of things go through your head. But now Declan and I are 50-50 in X recruiter. The sheer volume of things that you can get done more than more than worth that 50% it's almost like a factor of three or four. When you have someone else that works with you that you can Soundboard ideas off, that can give you the energy if you're feeling low. They can get you back on track if you're feeling a little lost. So I think going in partnership with someone for that reason is super powerful, to be able to work together and achieve far more than you could have done on your own.

Blake: 26:20

You mentioned before around. You liked being around people and one of your considerations were if you were to go out on your own, like you're not going to really have anyone around, how did you find that going out on your own? Do you have like a little office that you both work out of, or do you work from home or what's the kind of where you're working?

Michael: 26:41

Yeah, absolutely so. We started off working from home. We're looking at office space at the moment around Newstead. Just to kind of. You know, I think we want to. You know it gives us flexibility Flexibility to start with, just working from home. We spend most of our time out meeting people anyway. But I think you know we kind of got to a point now where we go, did you?

Blake: 27:03

both work from the same home, like just once someone came over.

Michael: 27:06

No, we live apart.

Blake: 27:07

We don't live together. Oh, so you're still. Did Libby maybe come to your house and you both work from your house? For example?

Michael: 27:15

Yeah, so we did catch. Yes, every week we catch up.

Blake: 27:18

In person.

Michael: 27:19

Yes, we sit next to each other, so it's almost like having an office, but it's a dining table at Libby's house. There's no interruptions there. My house is a two-year-old and a Jack Russell dog running around, so it's a bit harder. So we did that because of the collaboration aspect. But now we've kind of got to a point 18 months in going. It's good, it's humming, we're ready to take that next step. Offer space somewhere where we can go and also, I think, with clients it builds that credibility. Great a question. They always ask us where are you located? Where are you?

Blake: 27:51

Oh, out in Stafford, mate. It's up to us, it is.

Michael: 27:54

I'm just on the inner south side, it's a great place, great cafes. And some are super receptive and some are kind of like, oh, okay, so for us, if we have an office, then they just I think the expectation is, an office builds credibility, rightfully or wrongfully. But for us we're going to go, okay, well, great, that's the next step in our journey To kind of then just build that next layer.

Blake: 28:17

What are your considerations with an office? So, if there's anyone out there, there's a ton of recruiters right now that are probably thinking about getting their first office, like we've got some Harwell got their first office in January, hp people got their first office this week and there's a lot of considerations depending on, obviously, what's important. But for you guys, what are your considerations? Newstead lots of good coffee shops around is certain size of office.

Michael: 28:45

Yeah, it's not. Size is small, does? It need a meeting room or yeah, I think for us we sit there and go well, what do we need the office for? We visit lots of big, beautiful offices with our clients and then they tell you about the rent and you kind of like that just blows your mind.

Declan: 29:00

Oh, that's crazy. I can't believe how expensive some offices are in Brisbane.

Michael: 29:03

Yeah, absolutely so. I think for us it's more, I think, like accessibility. Like Newstead great, you can drive, you can park. You know, I parked out in the front today, whereas, like in the city, people are paying an arm and a leg to get in there. So I think that's a consideration for us. What are people coming to the office for? So if you have enough room for us to sit at the desks but then just like whether it's a meeting room or a breakout area with the client does want to come into your office, you got somewhere comfortable to sit and it represents your business and it's got a bit of a vibe to it. They're probably the most important things to us, like you know, the extra end of trip facilities and things like that For us and I guess, where we are and our business journey not really as important it's more just about that collaborative space that we can be in. If a client wants to come visit us, there is a bricks and mortar location.

Blake: 29:51

Sounds like a co-working space would be perfect. Yeah, yeah absolutely so.

Michael: 29:55

that's along the tangent that we're looking at at the moment.

Blake: 29:57

Okay. So if there are any recruiters out there that are interested to find out what it's like to have a VA, support them in their role whether that be to bill more, reduce tasks that they don't enjoy doing or be a more effective recruiter in their niche then we definitely recommend reaching out to the outsourced people or top reach out to them, inquire on how they can implement a VA in your agency and to support you. And if you mention ex-recruiter or confessions of a recruiter, they will give you a 13% discount off your bill per month on this VA. That will allow you to scale your business, scale your desk and to bill more and make more money. So go, reach out to the outsourced people, say confession sent you, get your discount and see what is possible.

Declan: 30:47

We traditionally. How did you work? Were you mainly contingent at Michael Page and now you do focus on, like more retained, exclusive assignments? Or is there any big takeaways that you changed when you worked for yourself? You're like, oh shit, I have to work like this to make it less stressful or better, or what were the things that you improved or changed from how you worked at Page previously that had the biggest impact?

Michael: 31:10

Yeah, good, yeah, very good question.

Michael: 31:13

I think the thing that we've changed the most. And because it is your own business, you kind of go. It comes back to the question is it worth my time? Opportunity cost Absolutely and that's why I'd say we do.

Michael: 31:25

It's very rare that we do a competitive job because we're kind of and I quite honestly say to my clients now it's not worth my time, it's a CV race. If you want me to kind of see how quickly I can send you a couple of CVs and maybe not have done the proper due diligence, just to get them in front of you to beat the competitors, I can do that, but there's no real value and for me it always comes back to I wanna offer my clients value and I wanna feel like I'm delivering that value too. And it's the same as when a client says, oh, just flip me some CVs. I'm like no, I wanna meet you, I wanna talk about this job, I wanna understand your culture, cause otherwise I'm not. I'm gonna charge you a lot, I feel, I feel we charge a lot, but I wanna make sure I give you that value as well.

Michael: 32:06

So now with clients I'd say yeah, vast majority, it's either retained or exclusive, with the sole people working on it. We can dedicate all of our time. We don't have to worry and, as I said before, like we don't have to worry about getting more and more and more work on, we go great. Well, if you've given us that commitment, we can absolutely now commit all of our time to that and find you the person as quick as possible.

Blake: 32:27

Well, so let's talk about that conversation. When someone says, just flick me some CVs, because that's probably the number one response to like a speculative, lukewarm potential lead, is it a job on? It's not really. And I feel like a lot of recruiters waste their time with these types of responses Like, oh yeah, flick me some CVs, I was like, oh, got a job on beauty, I'm going to start working the role. Really, it's nothing. So how do you handle that conversation? Do you quite literally go oh sorry, mate, I don't do that.

Michael: 33:00

Yeah, I asked. The best question I always go is okay. Well, let's unpack this a bit. What have you done in your recruiting process so far, just to kind of understand where you're coming in, because they might be like oh great, we've got an ad up at the moment. I've got three other recruiters looking at it. If you want to have a crack, great. And then that gives me all the.

Michael: 33:20

It's about uncovering the information first before then agreeing to something, because if I'm agreeing to something, that's me and my personal brand and if I'm like great, they'll send me some CVs. I'm like cool, and I can't find anyone, don't send anyone. They're like why'd that guy call me saying he wanted to send some CVs? No, his credibility is then shot and I've heard that over my career so many times. They're like oh yeah, recruiters call, say they've got someone. I say send it through. They never send a CV Because they want to.

Michael: 33:45

They need to do that. Call, they want to get the job on and they've probably gone like hey, I've got someone, and then they don't actually have someone, just wanting to kind of get the fish on the hook. And then, once they got the fish on the hook, they don't know how to reel it in. So I think for me, once I get that information, it'd be just be going okay, great. Well, maybe work through that process first. I'll send you my details and if that process doesn't work out or you're struggling to find what you're looking for, let me know, because for me and my clients and I'm here ready to dedicate 100% of my time so I want 100% of your commitment, because at the moment you're saying, if you've got three other agencies out on seek, the most you can give me is 20% commitment. So I don't want to give you 20% of my commitment. I want to give you 100% of my commitment.

Declan: 34:29

Nice, and what you've just said sounds perfectly dialed in now. What was it like 18 months ago? Could you have that conversation straight away when you first started? Or what were the domino effects that happened for you to build the confidence to then have that? Surely you would have taken anything when you first started.

Michael: 34:44

Yeah, I guess I might say like when you first started, you're kind of like oh shit, 10k flat, absolutely man.

Blake: 34:49

Where can I sign up?

Declan: 34:50

You're working with three recruiters. I usually use a compete against four.

Michael: 34:54

And I think when you first start off, it is backing yourself. So there was a few competitive jobs but you just, you know I sit there and go. Well, I'd back myself to out recruit these people Because I know I've got deeper networks, I know what I'm looking for a lot quicker, I have a better level of influence, and so you'd kind of, yeah, I guess to a degree, take what you can get and work pretty hard and then, after you get, you know one or two runs on the board and with each client, like you kind of go, you deliver a great process, you fill the candidate, then you can ask them for feedback. You know we always very big on getting feedback after our recruitment processes and going well, great, next time the role comes up, this is my recommended approach. Yeah, don't worry about this, other people, just give me a call.

Michael: 35:34

I sorted you out this time, you know. So next time another role comes up, give me, let me be the first call and we'll talk about how you find another great person. Yeah, and for them, they kind of that's what they remember. They don't think about everything else, they go well, great, michael got me that person. Let's give Michael a call again.

Blake: 35:49

It's interesting that you have that conversation, because I don't think many recruiters have that Frank, direct conversation after placing someone. Sometimes it's just, oh yeah, sweet ass, glad we can find them. Okay, see ya, and then it's kind of lost and forgotten about. Whereas if you're having that Frank conversation of, hey, look, yeah, we're able to get you someone. Maybe we were contingent this time, but hey, next time there's a better way of doing things and just call me first and we'll deliver on that, that kind of stuff is, I think is, a really good ending kind of note. When you're talking to your clients, what about like a three month follow up? Do you follow them up in three months to try and get the feedback on the candidate or any kind of like post placement?

Michael: 36:33

love. Yeah, absolutely, like it's essential. Yeah, and even just seeing about feedback and I'll come back to your question but even for roles that we don't fill, like I always like to go great, how was? Can I have some feedback? How is that process? Okay, we may not have found the right candidate this time.

Michael: 36:48

Would you consider giving me another opportunity next time? Because if you don't ask, you don't receive, and once again, you're planning the seed, so then that way they go okay, well, maybe another agency found the right candidate, but yeah, actually you gave me a really good process, you gave me a good selection of candidates. So, yeah, I'm happy to keep you in mind next time, so at least you know. Then, if you hear about a job through that company with another agency, you give them an opportunity to give them a call and say, hey, last time you said you gave me another shot, can I have another shot? Or why didn't you give me a call? Did I do something wrong? Yeah, and quite often when you ask, did I do something wrong, they're always like oh, no, no, no, no, you didn't do anything wrong, here's two jobs, yeah yeah, yeah.

Michael: 37:23

It's almost like they kind of feel like they owe you something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What was your question? I was kind of going to go first. Oh yeah, absolutely, first placement. Yeah, absolutely. So, ken and Clyde, like it's essential, it's probably ingrained from like a page. It's making sure people stick Catching up with them. Hey, how's it going? What have you learned? What are the good things? What are the bad things? Are there because you know if someone is thinking about leaving. And it's funny because I think candidates, if they're not enjoying where they've been placed, I always feel like the last person they call is the recruiter that placed them, because they feel like they're letting them down. But you actually want to be the first person they call If things are not working out, because it puts you in the position to A place that candidate again, because they're probably a good candidate because you placed them in the first place. But also you can then manage that process as well with your current client, because it could be something that could easily be fixed.

Blake: 38:16

All right. What about the moral dilemma of trying to place candidates you placed in the role? Yep, how do you like? Let's say, you know we placed Joe Blogs. He's 60 days in, he's still within his guarantee period. He gives you a buzz and he's like mate. This place is not what I expected. I thought I was going into a role with XYZ. It's actually ABC. Can you help me find something? What do you do?

Michael: 38:40

I'd work with the client first. I wouldn't pull the candidate out Okay, yeah, it's kind of like and then I'd chat to the candidate. First question have you had a chat to your manager? Yeah, see, if you've done so far and I think once again it's all about fact fine, what have you done so far? Have you had a conversation with your manager? How did that go? No, I haven't. Oh great, here's some tips of how to approach that conversation Off of something you know. So then that way they can, because they might go have that conversation with that manager and then be like oh, it's all sorted now. I just wanted a little bit more flexibility. I didn't know how to approach that conversation. You gave me some great tips. It's all sorted. I love it here. Now I actually want five grand more. Cool, let's have this conversation about how to talk about reviewing your salary, and more often than not, you'll save those conversations.

Declan: 39:24

Oh, mate, usually it's the most basic stuff that people just bail and I think it's it People go.

Michael: 39:29

It's easier just to bail than to have a conversation. I think, and I guess, as the digital era gets more and more, like you know, people are more afraid to pick up the phone. People are more afraid to have a face-to-face conversation, whereas I love it, I love going out and meeting people face-to-face and the amount of, like senior clients and cancer that I meet and they're like, oh, it's just nice to meet in person and I'm there vibing and I'm like this is great. But I think a lot of people go, oh, let's just jump on Teams or let's just have a quick phone call and move on. And I think, yeah, the more you can get face-to-face to have those conversations like if something's not going well, great, let's catch up for a coffee and let's talk about it, and you can save it, because the amount of knowledge and experience we have from how many people we've met, how many people we've spoken to and how many situations we've been exposed to there's some gold nuggets in there that you love.

Declan: 40:13

I think recruiters experienced recruiters are sitting on an actual goldmine of IP that they don't even realize. Like not many managers get taught how to interview, Not many of them know how to pitch a role, secure talent, onboard people it's super rare and we're in there every single day learning about a year after year, placement after placement. So, like you obviously take a trusted advisor approach, consultative approach, how do you go from being that low-level recruiter that's talking about what's your favorite personality, wanting your team, to then having a higher level of language of leaders, conversation where you're talking about risk mitigation, ROI on the person, and those types of conversation that's actually gonna drive an organization forward Because that's why they're getting hired. They're not getting hired to make sure they fit in with every like. Obviously there's elements of the culture, but how do you transition from being that low-level recruiter saying I've got candidates to then actually having a transformative, equal business, equal relationship with your clients, like where you're at in your career?

Michael: 41:15

Yeah, I think a lot of it comes back to meeting enough people and spending enough time with them, In particular meeting, I guess, meeting more senior people as candidates, Because a lot of the time you meet a senior person you ask, okay, well, what value do you deliver to a business, how is your performance measured? And you start to understand what the key metrics are in those more senior roles and therefore then that knowledge is power. Like, I think the biggest part of our job comes back to storytelling and the amount of people I meet and I'm just telling a story that someone else told me and people kind of think, oh, this guy's got so many stories. I'm like, well, not really. I'm kind of like the library and all the books are from all the candidates and all the clients that I've met and I'm just borrowing each one out as I meet different people. And I think the more people you meet, the more it builds your confidence, Because then you start to go, okay, great, well, I understand how all of these different roles are measured in these organizations and what delivers value back, Whether it's revenue, whether it's influence, whether it's projects there could be a whole range of different things and then that way, when you're meeting hiring managers, you can then start to ask those same questions, because then you've got the knowledge of what candidates have spoken about.

Michael: 42:23

I go, oh okay, well, because I've met this candidate who's delivered 10% ROI on your bottom line and therefore they can deliver X amount of value to you if you need someone in that particular vertical. And then it takes you away from oh yeah, I just met this guy and he's a great bloke To. Oh exactly, there's some more commercial benefit to each person, because that's what they're looking for at the end of the day.

Declan: 42:44

So if you wanna be able to, you know obviously get a as a recruiting opportunity. Cost is you're recruiting junior level 60K SDR roles. You wanna be recruiting, you know, gms, executives, 30, 40, 50, 60, 100K fees. What's your path to be able to get there? Because I know, like maybe business ownership is exemplified or recruiting those C-suite roles, people go, oh shit, that's not achievable for me because only play in this space. So would you still take the candidate track and just try and get as many meetings as you can with, say, cfos, you know, chief revenue officers, all those types of people as candidates? Or like, how do you make that jump to increase?

Michael: 43:24

Yeah, I've worked. I kinda work my way up the tree, yeah. So it's kinda like if you're recruiting the 60K people, I go, great, who's their boss? Meet that person. And then I go, great, who's their boss? Meet that person. Who's their boss, meet that person.

Michael: 43:36

And you can slow your work, like work your way up in each organization that you're dealing with. That's awesome, because that way you've already got a form of credibility. Oh, I've placed these people in this team. You meet the boss. Then you're like, oh, I currently deal with the person that reports directly into you. We place a great number of people and therefore I wanna meet you don't understand more about the broader strategic picture. They go, okay, well, great, you wanna understand more about our business. That's important. And also I think the most common thing that I see happen is if you recruit in those 60K jobs and you recruit lots for a client and then that client leaves and you're kinda like, oh, I don't know that person's boss, so you don't actually get to recruit that new client into that business, and then you almost lose that business overall, because it's human to human, it's not business to business.

Blake: 44:21

So was this an approach from Paige or did you become more mature and refined in that approach when you started your own business and it probably clicked a little bit more from a business owner mindset? Okay, I really understand the impact of X Y, z now so you can have those deeper conversations, or was it always like that at Paige?

Michael: 44:43

Yeah, the training was there from Paige of kinda going great, this is how you wanna work your way up. And it's probably lessons learned over my time there of when I've had clients and they've left and I didn't know their boss, should've known their boss. But then it's probably solidified more now where we kinda go great. We have our nice bunch of clients. We really wanna look after them, we wanna get repeat business. How do we make sure? How do we protect that? And so it's conversation between what if that person leaves, will we still get work or will we not get work? Okay, do we need to meet someone else in that organization? And how do we be the name on everyone's lips? I guess in that business, if an opportunity comes up, rather than just putting all of our eggs in the one hiring, manage and going oh, they're our advocate, they're a great person they'll tell everyone about us.

Declan: 45:29

And what's your time to work? I would consider that working on your clients or on your business, as opposed to with or in. How much time did you dedicate to sitting back and actually looking at, say, a client's org chart and go, hey, there's opportunity here we've missed, here. We don't know, this person don't know that. Like, how much would you suggest allocating time to doing that? Yeah, that probably comes part to our once a quarter.

Michael: 45:49

You know it's the kinda going great, who, where's our revenue coming from, and even just where's our job flow coming from, cause there's missed opportunities there as well. And then kinda going okay, well, where do we see that coming from next quarter? Because you know you might get a client go. Okay, this quarter we've placed 10 jobs with this one client. So what's the likelihood of actually having another 10 jobs with that same client? Probably not high, unless they're a global business, right, but if they're just a good mid-sized business, you're not gonna get that many jobs again from them. So where else are we getting the work from? And that's where we start to map out who are our top 10 clients? Have we, do we know the org chart? Do we know who's who? And have we met them?

Michael: 46:26

I sit there and I'm a big believer in you kinda need six points of contact till you're more likely to make a sale. Six or seven, I think it is. So it's kinda like have we called them? Have we met them? Have we sent them a salary guide? Have we invited them to an event? Have we maybe taken them to lunch? Have we sent a great candidate to them? And if we haven't done those six or seven things, then it's kind of like well, should we really be getting a job from them? Are we delivering the best possible service? Yeah, true.

Blake: 46:50

Yeah, see, there's a lot of value add through those dot points that you've just mentioned that I don't see a lot of recruiters doing like maybe 10%, 20% might be taking that approach of add value, add value, add value. Finally get a job. I was interested to know a little bit more about your geography, of where you're recruiting. So obviously at Page you're Brisbane, you're just recruiting in Brisbane, you've got a big client, you're doing an awesome job, and then they got a role in Sydney that they want you to recruit and you'd have to, I'm assuming, just hand it over to the Sydney boys and so you don't have to do that anymore.

Michael: 47:28

How good is that? Absolutely. I've been trying to decline in Thailand. At the moment I was like maybe I can get a job in Thailand.

Blake: 47:33

I don't know how that would work but yeah, how have you found being able to have like no geography boundaries on recruiting, is it? Are you kind of trying to pick up jobs a little bit of everywhere, or are you still just hyper focused on getting roles in Brisbane or what's that like?

Michael: 47:48

Yeah, but I'd say our core focus is Brisbane, because we're here, but we've recruited jobs in Melbourne. We've recruited jobs in Sydney. Newcastle had a job. Yeah, regional Victoria, like all different locations. So if we A got a client in Brisbane, they're like, oh, we need someone in Sydney. Yeah, absolutely, we can do it. And it's still me same process, same result, nothing really changes. Or if there is that odd client who is based somewhere else and either gets referred to us or just happens to come across us, then same thing. Yeah, absolutely we can recruit it. And if they commit to us, then it's very easy for well, jump on a plane, we'll come meet you. If you're gonna go retain with us, if you're gonna give us a commitment up front, we're gonna give you 100% our commitment. A couple hundred bucks on a flight, there is nothing. And it just shows that we're committed to finding the best possible person for them.

Blake: 48:41

When taking it seriously, yeah, see, I used to win a lot of business from big agencies when I was recruiting on the tools at Vendeto and a lot of the business that I would be winning is a GM would say, hey look, yeah, all right, we'll give you a crack at this role. I'd feel it. And then they'd say, oh, look, we've got another role, can you do that? And I'd be like, yeah, I can do that, no worries.

Blake: 49:04

And half the time it was like, oh, I'm so glad I can just deal with one person with all this shit. Because you deal with one person, it's a great experience. You go back to them and then they give you another recruiter and then you've got to brief another recruiter on this new, like what your expectations are or what you're looking for. And then there's another role in a different state and they're doing it again with a third recruiter and it just gets so messy and not very smooth or streamlined for that actual client. So I think one of our huge value ads for being an independent small business is you can just be the one person that they deal with and then they can feel comfortable to go oh, I'll just give all my work to Jib, because I know they can recruit any role, and I'm just speaking to the one person.

Michael: 49:43

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that. And there was like a moment like that in Pageware and that probably had that light bulb moment where there was a client on the Gold Coast and they're like, oh, we need these different jobs, like we need a HR job, we need a receptionist, we need a couple of people in marketing, we need a digital person. And I was like awesome, and I sent him a proposal and I'm like great, I got this lady who specialised in HR and she's got this much experience. I got this person who specialised in office support this much experience, I do digital marketing this much experience. And then we didn't win the work. And I followed up oh great, it's already in here, win the work and I have some feedback on my proposal. And he goes oh, we just went with someone who had the one point of contact who could do everything. And then I was kind of like, oh damn.

Michael: 50:25

Libby we're doing our own thing Because of that point right, they're kind of like oh, I'll have to if that one person understands us, our business, our people, our culture, our processes. We only have to kind of do that education piece once, as opposed to multiple times.

Blake: 50:41

Yeah you're making your client do like four times the work. Yeah, yeah, and it's a little bit crazy, I don't know why what kind of internal logistical nightmare it would be for just like one recruiter to still deal with the one client nationally at Big Agency on how that would like change things from a I don't know from a revenue standpoint and who gets the money or whatever it is. But I think if Big Agency's changed their approach with that, I think that'd win so much more work. Because that's where I got a lot of work from is just Big Agencies that had so many recruiters that they would deal with and they'd just got the shits every time they had to teach a recruiter the process or what they're looking for or how they like to recruit and all this kind of stuff. So it's interesting that now you're out on your own, you can just be that one point of contact and it's fun recruiting in random locations.

Declan: 51:30

It's like oh, orange.

Blake: 51:31

Geez, never felt a job in orange before. And then you can just start to speak to people with different I don't know lifestyles in different areas and you're like, oh, wow, okay, this is what it's all about in orange, hey, and it becomes a little bit more I don't know entertaining, I feel, when you're recruiting in different locations all the time.

Michael: 51:49

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think, well, we still try to say pretty true to like areas of specialization, but there has been, you know, those one-off jobs where you're kind of yeah, I think maybe recruited a financial controller in regional New South Wales, because I think what comes with tenure and recruitment is you start to go.

Michael: 52:07

I don't need to be an expert in the exact, I don't need to be able to do the job that I'm recruiting, I just need to understand the right questions to ask to be able to highlight that to the client. And that probably rang true to me when I recruited like a food and safety manager and kind of like you know, I know nothing about food and safety but knew the right questions to ask and then how to qualify candidates to then place the right person. I was like, oh, if I can do that, I could probably do anything Totally.

Declan: 52:30

And what? What stops you from doing that Like? Is there a reason why you enjoy your niche and not wanting to just do every single role?

Michael: 52:39

Yeah, I think, because it probably comes back to a lot of times. Particularly people in Brisbane is going what's? Why do people come to us and what's our value? Our value is our network and our database, you know, and people that we know, and if it's a role that we haven't, you know, we don't deep, deeply specialize in. We're kind of going well, we can recruit, but we're starting from scratch. You know, I don't instantly know 50 or 100 people that I could just pop a message or a call to and get straight on the front foot. We'd kind of have to run a full search campaign for you.

Declan: 53:07

That slows your cash flow near yourself.

Michael: 53:09

employed as well, it's just, it's just a different proposition. So it's going to go yeah, absolutely, we can do that, we've done it before. Here's a range of people that we've done before, but it's different to then someone calling us and go great, we need a head of marketing. I go, cool, I've. I can think of five people off the top of my head and I can probably get your CVs in 24 hours.

Declan: 53:25

Yeah, yeah nice. Yeah.

Blake: 53:27

So then what's next? So 18 months you're going to still be knuckling down, bring in the money, just getting some good foundations, and then you're planning to add stuff.

Michael: 53:37

Yeah, I think for yeah, next 18 months is just really just refine what we're doing, like I think it takes a while to get things humming, and so for us it's just kind of going great. Have we really solidified who we are? Do people know who we are? Are we a leader in that space? And then do we have all of our back of office sorted, all of those aspects? So we just we feel really comfortable with that. And then, yeah, three year mark go well. Maybe you know the next person, is it a someone that purely do contracting for us? You know to build that ongoing revenue stream for us? We know, we know there's a market there, we know how to do it. Then I guess he'll just be then taking the time to find that right person.

Blake: 54:14

I've got a question. Actually you're pretty high up in page. What was your role? Split between managing or billing Were you? You were a billing manager, I'm assuming.

Michael: 54:22

No, I was people, I was doing both.

Blake: 54:24

Oh, you're doing, you're billing and managing people.

Michael: 54:26

Yep, yeah.

Blake: 54:26

Yeah, okay. So I've spoken to a few kind of high up people in Randstad Hayes page and a lot of them are pretty. There's a lot of resistance to just going pure billing. You know, thinking about going out on their own and going holy shit, everything. All the onus is on me now to make sure that I'm bringing in money. Was there? Was there much of a I don't know a conflict internally of going okay, if I go out on my own and I'm just the, I've just got to focus on billing and I don't have any more responsibility. Is that something you leaned into or you were kind of like, afraid of? Like? Oh shit, I'm purely back on the tools.

Michael: 55:07

I actually look forward to it. Like that was probably one of the things. You know, one of the drivers for me to leave and it probably came from you know, libby said to me one day when we were at page. She was like your eyes light up more when you come back and go. Oh, I just met this amazing client and this is what they do and we might get some work from them, versus like when someone gets promoted in your team. Like you know, I love developing people. I'm a big team player, but she's kind of like you can just tell from afar watching that that's really gets you excited.

Michael: 55:36

And it was that internal conflict of kind of going okay, well, you know, part of my part of my salary or part of my bonuses is personal revenue, part of his team revenue. How do you balance that to get you know your people to perform? And I think at the time you know I had like eight, eight people across digital marketing and technology. So you kind of go how do I invest my time there and management and the meeting clients are doing great processes there and it's just an internal conflict.

Blake: 56:00

It's the hardest job in recruitment yeah, trying to trying to manage people, getting a small cut of what they're doing. But the more you manage them, the less you bill and the less you make. And then you got to try and find this balance of how do I maintain my revenue whilst getting the most out of my team. I think Greg Savage says it's the worst job in recruitment is being a billing manager. It's like really, really bad, because you know you've got your own personal pressures, but then you got the pressures of the team and you just you get lumped with everything all at once.

Michael: 56:27

Yeah, and it's never an excuse for a client. Oh, so I was looking after my team, like, so what?

Blake: 56:32

I don't care Like, yeah, I spend all day managing people today I don't care. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Michael: 56:37

So I think that was. It's almost like that, you know, I guess. Then what we found is then, when we've gone to do it ourselves, we're kind of oh wow, we've got so much more time. Now, you know, we're not having to do the one-on-ones, we're not having to do the management meetings, we're not having to run initiatives, so now you can just kind of now we're just spending purely that time recruiting. And I think the difference is what we've probably found as well is we're probably not working as long hours as we were, but we're working more intensely because there is none of those distractions. It's kind of your diary is empty, or you've played, you've planned it how you want to plan it, there's no one else popping things in there, so you can kind of condense your day a little bit more, but you just what you get through is like that's probably blown me away the most.

Blake: 57:18

What about your billings? Did your billings drop in your first year of going out on your road? Were you able to maintain it?

Michael: 57:25

Oh, I'd say we probably came close.

Blake: 57:28

Awesome.

Michael: 57:28

Yeah, which it was a lot of hard work, Like the first couple of months, you know, always tough and trying to find your feet, and just I think a lot of the unknowns probably come from the bit of owning a business as opposed to the recruitment side of it. You know accounting and legal, and websites and marketing and all of those other things that you kind of got to think about where we've always had. You know that department does that and that department does that, and we don't even know who they are, but you send an email and something happens, Whereas you kind of have to do it all yourself and that's probably the difference. But I guess, from the recruitment perspective, we kind of we got to the end of the first year and we, I guess we were tired of, pretty exhausted, but we were still. We were still comfortable with where we were and I think it set a good platform for now, you know, over the next 12 months, Nice.

Blake: 58:13

What was the feeling of your first invoice getting paid into your bank account?

Michael: 58:17

Oh, unreal. Someone told me like you have to go celebrate, like you'd, you know, and I think it's when you start your new business, like you know you got to start. You got to people tell me you got to. You got to celebrate your first invoice being paid. You should celebrate your 100th invoice going out, like that's pretty cool. You know, we had a. We had a party for 12 months in business, invited candidates and clients just to say hey, thanks for supporting us. This is great. You know, we went out to dinner, you know, and spent probably a little bit too much money, but you know you got to celebrate these things because you only do it once.

Michael: 58:47

And if you don't, you'll look back and kind of go oh, I wish I did. So I think, yeah, they're, they're and they're the things, because it's personal and professional, they're like, they're just yeah, like they make your head stand on it Do you have any advice for recruiters Probably in a similar situation to that you were in when you were at page around maybe how to organize their life.

Blake: 59:09

You know what to think about before starting their own thing what to think about or what's a plan for. That was unexpected when you started your own thing, like is there any kind of advice for someone listening, thinking all right, I've been at my job for 10 years now, maybe it's time for me. Should I do it? Should I not?

Michael: 59:24

Yeah, I think it comes back to, I think, a couple of things from like day to day. It's like why you like, yeah, and thinking back, and it's almost like you take, if if people didn't know the brand that you work for, would they still use you? And I think that's you know. I'd say, at the moment, people come to us but I don't think they even know the name of our company.

Blake: 59:45

They probably can't even pronounce the name of our company, but it doesn't matter. We don't care, that's come to.

Declan: 59:50

Libby and Michael.

Michael: 59:50

Yeah, and I thought back and I looked at all of those clients and I'm like, okay, well, we've got a good I've recruited for all of these clients and they, they use me for me. So, okay, I've satisfied that. And then it's kind of going okay. Well, also, where where do I want my you know career in the next five to 10 years, what's important to me? And you know, kind of writing that down on a piece of paper and I sat there going, well, I want work-life balance. You know, I've now got a two-year-old, got another one on the way.

Michael: 1:00:18

You know, we're about to hopefully buy a new house. So it's kind of all that. We've got all these life things going on at the moment. So we kind of go, we want that flexibility and we want, you know, to work and I have flexibility at Page, but I guess probably greater flexibility where, hey, I can. Only I need to take a day off because we need to move house, I need to pack the house, yeah, cool, no worries. So we want to once again, lifestyle business is probably not the right word but a lot of flexibility and working with someone that understood that. But we also, you know, I guess the financial return is probably, you know, secondary to, I guess, those other drivers, but you know at least kind of going. We're going to be there or thereabouts, and when we map that out of, okay, what are our buildings and what realistically do we think we can achieve that kind of hit the point as well. So I think it's almost, yeah, I don't want to say so, clients.

Michael: 1:01:06

Yeah, I go clients. What's important to you long term?

Blake: 1:01:09

Yeah, your career. See, the thing is, not many recruiters think past like the next 12 months.

Declan: 1:01:14

Yeah, let alone month to month, quarter to quarter.

Blake: 1:01:16

I was speaking to a recruiter yesterday and he's like mate, I'm 40. I've just had this realization that I'm just fucking thinking quarter to quarter.

Blake: 1:01:24

And I and I finally zoomed out recently and thought what the fuck am I doing over the next five, 10 years? It's not going to be this. I need to. I need to level up somehow. I want to have a family, I want to provide for them. I want to be able to go see my mom in another country if I want to go see her and be able to still maybe do a few deals or all that kind of stuff, and it's it's. It's interesting that that's one of your points, because I think that's what a lot of recruiters lack is they're not thinking five, 10 years ahead. They're thinking, oh, hopefully I do a big quarter next quarter.

Michael: 1:01:55

Yeah, and that's it. It's five to 10 years, like. We said they go. What would I be doing in 10 years time you go? Well, I don't want that job. That job seems a bit too hectic and too stressful and probably not, you know, the right balance for me. So if it's not here, where is it? And what does that look like? And that was it. We kind of sat there and go okay, well, 10 years time, we want flexibility. Yeah, if we want to go on a holiday and be on the other side of the world but still be able to recruit a job here or there, be able to do that Like my mom still says to me. Mom, she's like oh, your job's great. Like you can just do it from anywhere, can't you? I can, and your own boss? Yeah, yeah, I am. It kind of blows my mind. She probably doesn't really exactly get what I do, but I think you know at the same time she's like well, that's that's great, like, because a lot of them have that.

Blake: 1:02:33

Like I was living the dream. Yeah, Sometimes like do you still work. I do. I do my mom's a fan. No, that's really good. Well, mate, we really appreciate you coming on sharing your story and walking us through your plans and what your experience was at Page and how you kind of went out on your own as well. So, mate, we really appreciate you. Yeah, you're coming on and sharing all that info.

Michael: 1:02:53

Yeah, beautiful, thanks for having me. Thanks, mate, appreciate it. Thank you.

Blake: 1:02:56

Thanks for tuning in to another Confessions of a Recruiter podcast with Blake and Declan. We hope you enjoyed and got a lot of value and insights out of this episode. If you do have any questions or you would like to recommend someone to come on the Confessions podcast, we would love any introductions and remember the rule of the podcast, like share and recommend it to a friend. Until next time.