Amy Thomas (Vendito Consulting) Confessions of a Recruiter #77

Have you ever witnessed the power of transformation through strategic focus and resilience? Amy Thomas of Vendito Consulting exemplifies this metamorphosis, as she joins us to recount her pivot from retail to excelling in A&D specification sales post-COVID. With a career leap that not only doubled her billings but solidified her six-year tenure at Vendito, Amy stands as a beacon of growth and adaptation. Through recounting her shift from transactional recruitment to building long-lasting relationships, Amy's narrative is a masterclass in career evolution and the importance of aligning with a company's core values.

Amy doesn't just share her journey; she cracks open her playbook on increasing recruitment efficiency. The focus shifts from simply filling positions to understanding the unique aspirations and life situations of candidates, an approach that has significantly impacted her success. Amy's day starts with thoughtful prospecting emails, a testament to her strategic placement and timing. She hones in on the compound effect that cultivating candidate relationships has on her billings, illustrating a nuanced understanding that's revolutionised her approach. Her storytelling illuminates the process of connecting with individuals and the inherent value of looking beyond the resume to the person behind it.

Wrapping up this enlightening conversation, Amy delves into the art of personal connections and the strategic sale of retainers in the recruitment process. She educates us on engaging with hesitant hiring managers, employing storytelling to accelerate decision-making, and persuading clients to lean into the retainer model. Furthermore, Amy touches upon the delicate art of negotiating retainer fees, emphasising the importance of trust and the mutual benefits of exclusive working relationships. Whether you're a seasoned recruiter or just curious about the intricacies of the industry, Amy's insights will leave you with a fresh perspective on the power of personal connection and specialisation in the ever-evolving world of recruitment.

· Our Website is: xrecruiter.io

Transcript

Amy: 0:00

Hey guys, my name's Amy. I'm one of the partners here at Vendito Consulting. In this episode we discussed how I doubled my billings, how I pitched retained roles and how I secured really strong candidates in the industry. Hope you guys enjoy the episode. Thanks so much.

Declan: 0:21

All right, welcome back to another episode of Confessions. Today we are joined with Amy Thomas and this is Volume 2. It is and you're brought back on for many reasons and a lot's happened in the last 12 months, so we're going to unpack it all, but you've had an incredible career. It's been only with one agency Venditto.

Blake: 0:38

It has BT Jeez a long time at Vendito.

Amy: 0:43

Nearly six years in October.

Blake: 0:46

Why are you still around?

Amy: 0:51

I don't know. Nah, I think Vendito has a lot of values that I stand by. And yeah, I mean Blake, to be honest, he's a good boss and he's taught me a lot, and I just don't find any reason to leave, like, if you're happy where you're at, why look elsewhere, you know? So, yeah, that's why I'm here.

Declan: 1:13

Sweet. So you've changed industries but sort, in the last three years, what industry have you really? Has it been three years that you've really honed in on the one?

Amy: 1:21

Yeah, would have been just after COVID honed in on the one. Yeah, it would have been just after COVID. So obviously started in retail because I came from a retail background and then COVID hit so no one was recruiting store managers because all the shops were closed. And then I stepped into construction after that and then from construction into A&D specification sales. So the last sort of two and a half three years has been architect and design sales, which I really enjoy, yeah.

Declan: 1:47

What do you enjoy about it?

Amy: 1:51

I would say the client side. I really liked the creative aspect and being part of the process from start to finish with a lot of the projects as well. So you know I love interior design myself and architecture so, yeah, I think naturally falling into that space, I clicked with the clients and candidates a lot compared to other industries that I was in.

Declan: 2:12

Yeah, Nice, and has that been like? You know? You've had two, three impressive years, pretty much ever since you got into this industry.

Blake: 2:19

Is it?

Declan: 2:20

the industry. Is it Amy? Is it the time in the game? Is it all Blake?

Blake: 2:26

Let me actually give some context on amy's billings from when she first started to now. Yeah, can I do that? Sure, all right. So, um, jax, the director of haste shout out. Jax recommended you, uh, to vendito. You were working in a like a retail clothes store as like an area manager, yeah, and when you started it seemed like the natural industry to recruit in in retail because that's what you understood around store managers, casual assistants, things like this. Amy's first 12 months in recruitment she built 120K, so at the time the structure was 45K base.

Blake: 3:11

Yep 48K base 48K base plus super 10K cost of seat per month, and then it was 20% comms over that 10 grand. So she made a cost of seat every month. And I remember sitting down with you one day and going hey, tom, you're fucking only hitting your cost of seat, we're still losing money because generally it costs to run a recruiter. It generally costs two and a half to three times what their salary is to pay for all their resources and et. So. So at the time only hitting your threshold was was almost well was. It was losing money. And but amy was still trying. We used to call her part-time thomas because when she was at work she tried really hard. But it was just getting her to work which was the problem and she would keep you from work oh, dentist appointment on a friday, arvo.

Blake: 4:07

We were in the gabba and she goes I've got a dentist appointment, uh, this afternoon I'm gonna leave. I'm like, amy, it's 11 o'clock, when's your appointment? She's like, oh, two o'clock. I was like, well, why are you leaving? Now she goes oh, it's up in burping gary. I'm like who the fuck goes for a dentist appointment an hour and a half away and does it on a Friday, arvo? So it was part-time Thomas for about a year and a half, yep, but year two she doubled her billings To 240. To 240. She was much more committed in year two.

Blake: 4:40

And you were 22 at the time, weren't you?

Declan: 4:42

Yeah.

Amy: 4:42

In year two.

Blake: 4:43

Yeah, yeah. And so she was doing retail and so this is the struggle and the problem with retail is average salaries were 50K, 55k plus super. I'm just going to throw a little bit of shade on the retail industry for now, with love, just from a recruitment perspective. So generally you know a casual sales assistant, a store manager. They're usually kind of early in their professional careers. They get a call from an unknown number. They don't want to answer it because they're like, oh, who the hell is this? So you've got to make like 50 calls to get like three connects. And then when you do talk to them and they go, yeah, okay, I'm interested to go for an interview like one in five people will actually turn up, and not only that is the average fee rate is like 10% or 11%, so you're lucky to do a deal for a 6K fee, basically. So volume.

Amy: 5:38

Yeah, it was like four or five deals to get 20K for the month. So I was doing double the amount of recruiting. Hustling is hard. And then there was someone in the office doing one deal for the same amount. I was like what is doing? Like I'm hustling so hard? I was doing heaps of calls and, like Blake said, you'll get five candidates out but only one person will show up. So it's like you had to double the increase of how many candidates you could get across, because you're always relying on hopefully one person would rock up. Yeah, it was bad.

Blake: 6:09

Yeah, so that was. I guess that in itself was the moment where we spoke about well, you're putting in the work, you're doing the deals, but you're not actually getting anywhere with your billings. So there was a lot of resistance from ATOM around changing industries because that's all you knew and you felt like you were a 23, 24-year-old having to deal with directors and GMs. It wasn't really something that you were comfortable with at the time, and then we made the decision to go to like construction products.

Amy: 6:44

Yeah, I did a little bit of medical sales off the back end of Blake's clients, so that was probably more 180. So more the candidate side, and Blake was overseeing the client side. And then that's when I sort of had an idea of what recruiting for a BDM was or an account manager, because prior to that it was just showroom managers, store managers, area managers, and that's all I knew. And then, yeah, got into the building materials space after that.

Blake: 7:14

Yep. Then year three doubled your billings again to $480. So that was good. Every year I'm doubling yeah, yeah, it was literally.

Amy: 7:24

We were looking at our figures I was like it's crazy. The last sort of three to four years I've doubled each time yeah and then um yeah, so year three was 480 and year four, last two years ago was 890 yes, close to a mil, and then last year, um well, I had three months off, so that affected my billings because I did a lot of traveling, but I still did like 700, I think, last year.

Declan: 7:53

So add an extra third you get a million bucks.

Blake: 7:56

So double it this year. Two mil On track for two mil this year. Are you? Yeah fingers crossed, yeah. So I find it's an interesting journey for amy, because one she'd never really done a proper sales role I mean retail sales is sales, but not a b2b sales role and she has the natural progression of billing 120. Usually most recruiters don't last. No, they would have given up. They would have given up, or their boss would have fired them. But then she pulled the rabbit out. How many times have you been on a performance plan?

Amy: 8:36

I reckon, three times. And I even had, like, you gave me an ultimatum If you don't bill 20k this month, you're out. And it was like a full written warning, I think. After that I really was like, if you don't build 20k this month, you're out. And it was like a full written warning, I think.

Amy: 8:50

After that I really was like, if I don't keep my job, I've got to move back in with my parents, like it really sort of hit home where I was like I really need to pull through. So I was hustling really hard. And then I don't know, I think my mindset just really changed, like when I started getting a lot of wins it's just in the first 12 months, when I wasn't taking recruitment seriously. I was partying, you know, part-time, thomas, I was probably working three days a week out of the five I just didn't think like, oh, I won't get fired, you know. But yeah, when Blake was like, look, unfortunately, this is the cost of the business, this is what you're billing. You don't bill 20K this month, you're out. And then, yeah, I think after that everything sort of changed.

Amy: 9:30

And the biggest transition for me was when Blake used to do one-on-ones like nearly every day and when me and Blake had a catch up at the end of the year I think this was like three years ago. He's like what do you need from me? And I was like I'm going to be completely honest, I don't like being micromanaged, like if I'm not billing, like then catch up with me. But when you're catching up with me every single day, I'm really struggling because I'm walking away from the meeting, going, I'm not doing well, like it's always like I might be doing four good things and one bad thing, but Blake would sort of talk about the bad thing the most. So he's all right, I'll let you Jeez.

Blake: 10:07

Jeez, sorry about that. Got one of those slack answers this morning.

Amy: 10:15

But it was crazy because he's all right, I'll leave you to it, and what it was. 12 months later we did another year catch up and he's like I was like how do you think I went? And I think that's when I did like nearly a million dollars that year. And he's like, okay, now I get it. So for me, like I don't like being sort of told what to do if I'm doing something right and someone's trying to change me, to do something different, to make it better, it's like if I'm what I'm doing is already good, then why change the situation and how I'm doing it? Uh, and then, yeah, yeah, since then we don't. I mean, we catch up maybe once a month here and there, but it's on a part-time basis.

Declan: 10:47

That's weird.

Blake: 10:48

I thought people love getting micromanaged. So here I am micromanaging Correct accountability. Yeah, what did you do in the last 12 hours, amy?

Declan: 10:57

You always want to know what you're shit at yeah.

Blake: 11:00

Yeah, and now where are you at from a career perspective inside Venditto?

Amy: 11:06

Yeah, so just got made partner. Oh, I don't know what they're doing.

Blake: 11:16

We have like sounds where it's like woohoo, so we're going to put a sound on. Yeah, we're going to put a sound on, so now you're partner yeah. How good is that.

Amy: 11:25

Yeah.

Blake: 11:26

Was it something that you have wanted to work towards or is it just something that has happened? What is the journey from where you were to where you are now? Were you always clear that you wanted to be partner?

Amy: 11:40

I think so. I would say two years ago I definitely was pushing for that when we were in conversations about do I do ex-recruiter or do I stay in Vendito. And for me, the reason why I didn't do ex-recruiter is I wanted to still work around the people in the office. I didn't want to just go out on my own and work for myself. So I made that decision to stay with Vendito. And yeah, I guess when you brought it to the conversation a couple of weeks ago and you're like where do you see yourself in, you know, the next 12 months to five years, and we started speaking about that, that's when obviously it got put forward. So, yeah, it's been good. How exciting it. So, yeah, it's been good.

Blake: 12:17

How exciting. It's only been a couple of weeks since you've been partner, but what have you noticed? Has anything changed internally? Externally, You've updated your LinkedIn profile. Are you getting more views and more people taking you seriously?

Amy: 12:39

What's the outcome now of being partner? Apart from the obvious, I've had a lot of clients reach out to me, I guess just congratulating me, and a lot of candidates as well. But yeah, I think I'm still in the transition at the moment. So, yeah, let's see what the next sort of couple of months brings.

Declan: 12:55

I see immediate change already.

Amy: 12:57

Oh really.

Declan: 12:58

Yep, just like you.

Blake: 12:59

Her hair, what she's wearing to the office. Yeah, like stepping it up. Yeah, no more active wear. Active Amy's gone Active Amy.

Declan: 13:10

No, but just your demeanour. The ideas you're putting forward. You're thinking about the business, who's potentially coming on like? Just you know I don't really pay attention, but those little things like mean a lot to a business owner. And that's when you know like, hey, I've made the right decision by promoting certain people and then immediately you see that impact. Well, that's what I've noticed just from hanging around you guys. So I've seen it to be very positive, because I know last time you'd come into the office you'd be like woo, what's happening? And all that stuff when the drinks are yeah, 10am wine time and just lay on the couch scrolling.

Declan: 13:48

So, yeah, there's been a, I think in the last two years a high level of maturity has come through from Amy and you can obviously tell that's through your results and what's happening, so good on you.

Amy: 13:53

Thank you.

Blake: 13:55

So let's talk about, then, your process on how you've been able to double your billings year on year and maybe some of the light bulb moments that you've had to achieve that dramatic compounding success. I know initially it was call clients, call clients, get jobs on fill roles. Now it's kind of transitioning to mainly reverse marketing fill roles. Now it's kind of transitioning to mainly reverse marketing. Do you want to give us a little bit of a rundown on like what a day looks like for you when trying to get new business and trying to place roles and let's get really granular, because I think sometimes we talk very high level and it's sort of summarized in five minutes.

Declan: 14:34

If we can just break down day by day what's thinking in your head and we'll talk to you throughout your process. If we can just break down day by day what's thinking in your head and we'll talk to you throughout your process.

Amy: 14:40

Yeah, I think when I first started in recruitment it was very transactional, so doing a lot of BD, getting roles on and then just trying to fill the positions, where now it's more working with the candidates more than the clients.

Amy: 14:52

So I'll build really strong relationships with those candidates where I might not fill them in a role for three to six months but I will keep in contact with them similar to client side, like always touching base with them, seeing how they're going, building that relationship so that they only want to essentially work with me as a recruiter, because other recruiters in the industry will just randomly call them, say, hey, I've got a job, try and put them in that job, but they're not actually understanding what the needs are for that candidate, what they're really looking for.

Amy: 15:19

So I would say time management's everything. That's something I've really learned over the last sort of three to four years. I used to come in not really understand what I was doing with my morning and just go, oh, I'm just going to work this role and then just start working the role, where now I always follow up from the day before what I need to follow up on and then essentially I'll do maybe 10 to 15 prospect emails every morning, so just sending out an email to some clients seeing how business is going for them, and then from that I'll get started on a role for the day. So I normally work one to two roles a day and try and get you know three to four candidates across.

Blake: 15:55

For each role or in total, or.

Amy: 15:56

No for each role.

Declan: 15:58

So you're trying to submit six to eight candidates a day yeah a day, yeah and to most people that would be shocking yeah um, even partners in extracurricular. They'll be like whoa, that's hectic yeah six to eight a day yeah so like? Is that only a compounding effect of these three years of relationships that you can just call on these people? Yeah because I know, if I were to sit there on a cold database and try and find six to eight people, I don't think I could.

Amy: 16:23

Yeah, definitely, and it's also you might get one candidate, but put them out to three roles, right? So you might have four candidates, but you got them out to multiple positions so that you're guaranteed to fill them in one position. So I don't just go one candidate to one role, I go let's get you three opportunities, and then you can take your pick on which one you want.

Declan: 16:43

Even that's a huge value add to a candidate.

Amy: 16:45

Yeah, yeah, so you, I mean, if you put them forward to one opportunity excuse me, they essentially only have one offer and then when the when it's a really good candidate you've got three clients wanting to actually offer the candidate and then you can actually negotiate. So a candidate might be on 90k base. You've got one client going, I'll give him 100. I've got another client going, I'll give him 110. And then you go to that client and go oh look, they've got another offer at 110. Then another client will come forward and go I'll give him 115. So before you know it, you've gotten them a 25K pay rise where, if you just got the one offer, you're relying on that one offer for that candidate. So it works out a lot better that way. But yeah, I normally work with maybe four to five candidates a day and just see what they're looking for and then whether it's working with a reverse market at the end of the day and trying to get them out to some clients. But yeah, that's essentially how I structure my day is more candidate side.

Declan: 17:41

Yep. And are those 15 emails? Are they existing clients? Are they new clients? How do you decide who those 15 emails go to each morning?

Amy: 17:48

A bit of both. So if I've got a candidate that I'm working with, let's just say in flooring, I will find 15 clients in flooring and then I'll send them through a prospect email saying I've got some clients in the industry that come from X, Y, Z. How are you guys going? Are you looking for anyone to add to the team? And that could be a split between existing clients or new clients in the industry.

Declan: 18:12

Yeah, and how many roles would you be managing at once?

Amy: 18:15

I've got 17 at the moment.

Declan: 18:17

And is that constant? Is that a lot? Is that not much?

Amy: 18:21

It varies. So a lot of the roles I do recruit are actually retained. And then off the back end of that I might get a couple of clients that call and say, hey, we're looking for an account manager. So it's a bit of a specky role but it's managed between myself and, obviously, chelsea, who's my candidate manager. So I'll get her to do two roles a day. I'll work two roles a day, and so that's, and then we will work together to try and get you know between I'll do I don't know anywhere between six, eight candidates a day and she might do maybe two or three.

Declan: 18:50

Yeah, so, and this volume and pace was that instilled in you at the beginning.

Amy: 18:55

No.

Declan: 18:55

This. This took years.

Amy: 18:57

Yeah, it's taken a while. I think when I first started, as I mentioned before, I was very transactional, so I was not really understanding the didn't really have a relationship with the candidate. It was just like, hey, I've got this job, you're keen? Yep, put them forward, try and get the deal done.

Declan: 19:12

All jobs are contingent.

Amy: 19:14

Yeah.

Declan: 19:14

Yep.

Amy: 19:15

And now it's more. I will work with a candidate and build that relationship over three to six months. For example. I was dealing with a candidate yesterday and she's like Amy, I haven't used a recruiter or haven't worked with a recruiter. She's been in a current company for nine and a half years. She's like there's just something about your approach that I wanted to speak to you. But other recruiters I wouldn't sort of speak to them via LinkedIn or through phone calls, but what's the approach?

Blake: 19:42

um just more personal like can you, can you, can you read us?

Amy: 19:47

read. Read you my pitch yeah, read us like.

Blake: 19:50

I don't know. You don't have your phone on you, but I think it'd be good to like that person who said that like what? What that approach was? Because typically most recruitersers go hey, your details come up as a match. Want to talk to you about you know this role and see if it's of interest to you and this kind of stuff. But you kind of do the opposite. You go hey, um, love to learn more about you. Like what? What is it?

Amy: 20:13

how do?

Blake: 20:13

you approach them.

Amy: 20:14

That makes them want to engage with you it's good if you've got someone that's referred you to that candidate. So I'd be like, oh, like, mark, whatever.

Declan: 20:23

How did you get that referral?

Amy: 20:25

Via LinkedIn.

Declan: 20:26

You asked them.

Amy: 20:27

Yeah, yeah. So I'd be like do you know anyone that might be suitable for the role? They're not looking and they might say, oh, like, yeah, Mark, whoever his last name is, they would be a good fit. Maybe reach out to them. And then sometimes I'll name drop like, oh, angie said that you'd be a good fit. I'm currently recruiting a role, but I mean with this particular candidate that I was speaking of before. That's been there nine and a half years.

Amy: 20:52

When I first called her she's like oh, look, I'm really happy, I'm coming up to my 10 years. So I have long service leave coming up. And then, reversed on that, I just said well, after your 10 years of long service leave, do you see yourself in your current company for the next 10 years? Where do you see yourself? And I think that was the first time she's probably I haven't come at her with, hey, I've got a job for you.

Amy: 21:15

It was more of an approach of what is sort of your next steps in your career and understanding that. So she's like oh, I haven't really thought about it, but maybe I'm open to new opportunities after that. And then I just got to know her like she's a mom, she's got her son like just one-on-one understanding of what she would be looking for if an opportunity was to pop up. And then, off the back end of that, I reached out to some clients and they don't have active roles but they're like we would be very interested in speaking with you, know, angie. And then from that they just had a coffee catch-up and probably won't be a deal now because she's about to take her 10 years long service leave. But she said look, I would love to catch up at the end of April and she's a really strong candidate. She's like a $150,000 base salary plus super 20K car and been in the industry for 10 years.

Blake: 22:01

So for some, clients are like that's unheard of in our industry. So, yeah, so easily placeable.

Amy: 22:04

You just got to keep her warm, yeah yeah, and the good thing is, like when you keep that approach where it's more personable, on, you're not trying to sell a role to them, but you're trying to understand what they're looking for. So I always break it down like, apart from salary, like if you could change anything about your role or what you're currently doing at the moment. Salary, like if you could change anything about your role or what you're currently doing at the moment, is there anything you would change? Like culture, you know, um, the requirements. You know wanting to do four days a week if you're a mum, some, some people want to take one day back. Um, or is it management? Like, do you want a career? Like career progression? So, if they're in a BDM role, do they want to step into a sales manager role? Like, what does that look like for themselves? And when you build the relationship on that, it's not just selling something to them, understanding, like who they are as a person. Then you know, look, great, chatting with you, if I have anything that pops up, would love to reach out and let you know.

Amy: 22:56

Might give it two to three weeks and then I'll give them a call Like how's everything been? Hey, look, I've had a role pop up. I think you'd be a really good fit for this position. I'll tell you a little bit about the company, and so I don't even go into what the role is. I just tell them about the company culture, who the company is, what they do, how long they've been around for, and then from that I'm like look, they haven't really specified what the role actually is, but this is, they'd be looking for someone like yourself, so, like a senior BDM, it's paying around this amount, it's got an uncapped commission structure. And then I get them more interested on the actual company and the culture and the career progression more than the actual role itself.

Blake: 23:37

Yeah, how did you think to do that Like, where did this come?

Amy: 23:41

from One day I was actually sitting there and I was like, if I was a candidate, how would I want to be approached? And so, when I started thinking about it, if someone came to me like let's just say, an agency, and they came and said, hey, amy, we've got this role. It's a $1.6 million desk, you know, it's a senior principal consultant position paying this much of salary, I probably wouldn't be interested because I'm like, okay, but like I don't know anything about you, I don't know anything about the company. So, like, if someone came to me in a different approach, like, hey, amy, how you been?

Amy: 24:11

Like how's Venditto going? Like look, would love to catch up with you for a phone chat and then obviously speak about you know who they are as a business, not even discussing, you know, um, the role itself, but who that, who the the owner is or the manager is, and really going into them as a person, then I'd probably more interested in the values and and what they can bring to the table than just like a role itself. But yeah, I think that's that's what I do with my candidates. I just put myself in their position, like how would I want to be approached? And then that's how I hold the conversation.

Declan: 24:44

Well, it's very similar to like the MCP process. Think about it. Everyone tries to sell on product. What's the MCP process? So you sell yourself first. Clients get the most buying because they're dealing with Amy. Then they get buying on the company because they know vendito is reputable, they know they're specialists in the industry la da da. And then the product is like the recruitment service.

Declan: 25:08

If you just go and say all the candidates. So if you go in and say, hey, you know most people do it in reverse, so they'll just lead in and they'll just word vomit about the product. Like software, people do it really really well. Um, everything like that. Like real estate. Like real estate, it's all about the house, all about the house. So what you want to and what you've done, um, and maybe an added layer that you could add on top would be finding out who these directors or who the leaders are, the owners of the business and then bringing like, hey, this guy is like a top you know director in the industry. He's been here for 20 years. The reason why he's got such a good business is xyz, and you could add that on as an added layer of buying, because they buy into people, will buy into people first, and then the company and then, like you said, the products.

Amy: 25:46

Last then the role. Yeah, like, for example, like um, just throwing it out here like own world right, one of my clients and I would speak jeez, you're name dropping your clients on the potty. Look, me and Peter are going to do it.

Blake: 25:59

Any recruiters out there need a job on. Just hit up Own World.

Amy: 26:03

No, but like both Peter's there, they're fantastic and I essentially have grown their business with people on board. I think I've brought on like maybe four or five people in the last sort of 12 months and, getting to know Peter on a personal level, which is one of the directors, I've been able to sell that to the candidate when I speak to them and then from that I'll speak about the company culture and what they do.

Amy: 26:27

So, for example, they fly their staff over to Italy once a year to meet with their suppliers and it's fully paid for. Like they do these things where other companies probably wouldn't do that. And it's not just talking about, like um the company overall in australia, but like the things like um, last year peter's like oh, we took all our guys to the blue mountains for a yoga retreat for a week just to reset. Like things that, like you, not many people like other like clients, wouldn't say in an interview, but as a recruiter we can put that forward and be like, yeah, like they do this for their staff. Like when Blake used to pay for our lunches, you foods and our dry cleaning, you know, like he wouldn't obviously say that to someone wants to come on board with Venditto, but like internally we would know like how Blake treats us, um, as like a boss, if that makes sense.

Blake: 27:16

Okay. So if there are any recruiters out there that are interested to find out what it's like to have a VA, support them in their role whether that be to bill more, reduce tasks that they don't enjoy doing or be a more effective recruiter in their niche then we definitely recommend reaching out to the outsource people or top Reach out to them, inquire on how they can implement a VA in your agency and to support you. And if you mention ex-recruiter or confessions of a recruiter, they will give you a 13% discount off your bill per month on this VA. That will allow you to scale your business, scale your desk and to bill more and make more money. So go reach out to the outsource people, say Confession, sent you, get your discount and see what is possible there you go.

Declan: 28:07

The MCP process Obviously learned that from Tucky at Swish, but it works incredibly well and just really uncovering those relationships pay a huge dividend to everything that happens after that.

Blake: 28:19

You know, I think you've highlighted something really interesting there around selling the people first, because I know for me early in my career I wouldn't really I didn't really care what I did for work, but what I did care was who I would actually work for. I'd be a garbage bin driver or a any sort of random job if my mentor or my boss was actually a good human and I learned a lot from them and so I'm probably actually you know that transactional recruiter where I would pitch the role.

Blake: 28:52

Hey this is an amazing role. Do you want to talk about it? And luckily I'm not on the tools as much these days, because I would probably get absolutely dominated by recruiters who lean in with a more high level of intelligence around okay, people want to work for a good person first, they want to work for a good company second, and then the roles and responsibilities probably are on the third tier of their interest level. So now that you kind of highlight that, it makes so much more sense when approaching candidates about new opportunities. Obviously you want to try and sell on the role, but ultimately, as a candidate, you just want to know who you're going to be talking to and working for before you know what the role is.

Declan: 29:37

So if you know that now that candidates are like brought to that, how much deeper your discovery calls with clients and being weary of not to go back to you know, year two, amy, just getting a contingent job and going, oh sweet, I got a job. Like how deep do you now? Like you know that own world? I think you said, like that's a great example. But like, what's your discovery call? Look like now to get this information, because you can't just get it on a one call close. Like, what process do you go through to acquire a new client and actually get this information up front?

Amy: 30:14

I think just asking about you, you know, what do you guys do outside of the business? Like, do you guys um, have any, have any incentives, like I know some of Lexi's clients for example, they'll take the guys to like a football game and put them in a big box but just asking those sorts of questions with with my clients, like you know, do you guys do like end of month lunches, like just really diving deep into what they do as a team, not just like who the company is overall and and um, do you use any still like asking.

Blake: 30:41

This kind of stuff makes me feel like you might use stories to sell yeah to sell the candidates or sell the clients, for example. So how? How much storytelling do you do in your recruitment process?

Amy: 30:57

uh, either for clients or candidates, to try and manage and get better outcomes, if at all um, I don't know how much storytelling I would do, obviously the what I explained before with own world, like taking them to the blue mountains for a yoga retreat. I think it's like selling the company culture there, like you know, they're not just like, oh, you're rocking up to a nine to a five, they actually care about you outside of work and they pay for it. Like so I wouldn't. I don't know if I would do much storytelling to my clients, but on the candidate side, selling the companies to my candidates, I would do a lot of storytelling of, like, what they've done in the business, how they've grown. You know, flying the staff overseas to meet with the suppliers, what that looks like, what new products they're winning, what projects they're winning, and then obviously going in like that.

Blake: 31:46

I like that yeah so could you add more storytelling to clients? Do you think that would be beneficial?

Blake: 31:51

On the candidates or yeah, like storytelling clients, like I'm just going to make this up let's say and I don't know how often this happens to you, but we spoke at that conference we spoke at a conference last week in front of a hundred recruiters around storytelling to get better outcomes and engagement with hiring managers.

Blake: 32:13

And sometimes if you were to have a hiring manager and I'm sure we've all experienced this that might be taking a really long time to make a decision and you're thinking, rather than me just going, hey, are you going to make a decision like are we going to offer this guy the job? Like what's going on here? Coming from from a a more selfish point, you would revert to telling a story and going, hey, look, amy, I know you want to make the right decision and it's not a decision to be rushed. I just want to explain to you, like what happened with my last client. Yeah, they were going through this process because they were just they needed to make sure they made the right hire, because it's an expensive mistake if it's not the right hire and they actually took three weeks and you start telling a story around potentially what could happen to them if they continue down the track that they are. You know whether it be a slow process, whether it be they're not selling the candidates enough, et cetera, et cetera. Do you think that might be helpful?

Amy: 33:08

Yeah, I've done that in the past. I probably don't do it that much because I'm very lucky. A lot of my clients they don't really. They make decisions quite quickly, so I don't really have to come across that much, Maybe here and there. To be honest, if I'm dealing with HR, I probably get a lot of that. But when it's to the director or to the decision maker, whether it's like a sales manager, they just it's like a one interview or two interviews, sort of let's just offer them.

Declan: 33:38

So D personalities. A lot of your clients are D personalities, yeah.

Blake: 33:42

Yeah, dominant.

Amy: 33:43

Yeah, which means quick decision makers.

Blake: 33:44

They want to get to the point and they want to get outcomes. Yeah, yeah.

Amy: 33:47

Yeah, I always question, if a client's like unsure, like I'll push back and be like like what are you unsure on? Like just so I can understand if it's the candidate or if it's themselves like, because sometimes you might think, oh, maybe the can is just not right, but the candidate could be right. It's just like they're just maybe thinking, oh, maybe there could be someone better. And then, like, once you understand that, like, oh, maybe we could see someone else and compare, it's like would would you hire this person? Yes, okay, then, hypothetically, if we don't find someone better, like where's that leave us? We could be back to the drawing board. If this can't go somewhere else, like, wouldn't you rather just bring this person on board than just hypothetically wait, um, and then from that it sort of pushes back like, oh, yeah, you're right, you know, let's just yeah, do references, maybe, and then move forward.

Declan: 34:32

Yeah, and what about retainers? The the process of learning how to sell a retainer yeah and what would be some critical ways in which you could explain.

Amy: 34:42

You find it easy to sell retainers I think the best way to sell a retainer is what you get out of a retainer. So non-exclusive means there's no risk, which I respect. Anyone that you know doesn't want to go retain and I always say that. But falling onto like, look, we are working with a number of candidates at the moment in the industry and you know these candidates are the candidates that will be filled quickly in roles. So when I go to a client asking like you want to go non-exclusive or retain, they always push back like what's retained?

Amy: 35:14

And then I just say, look, 90% of my clients work on a retained basis means you have two people on the role. We, you're guaranteed, guaranteed to fill the position and you, you don't essentially have to deal with any other recruiters, because I think a lot of the time clients actually don't like to deal with multiple recruiters. It's like, oh, it gets too messy, I've already seen this candidate from someone else, or I just want to deal with one person and that's it. So eliminating having to pay you know, 22 and paying 15 instead, it's like you're getting the same outcome but you're just paying it up front. So that's what I put forward to my clients is like wouldn't't you rather the discount at 15% than paying 22% for the same result in the end. Yeah, maybe a worse result.

Blake: 35:56

Yeah. So for context our terms, we charge either 22%, any salary package with a three-month replacement guarantee under a non-exclusive agreement, and then if you go retained, which essentially means you pay 50% of the fee upfront and then 50% of the fee when the candidate accepts the contract, so before start date, and that's a 15% fee with a six month replacement guarantee. So from a commercial sense, it's like three times better to go retain. It's a really big carrot to dangle to go. Well, double your replacement guarantee will reduce the fee by essentially a third, which is what that is. If you just pay 50% up front, it makes it much easier to sell, in my opinion, as well as, like I usually and I'm just going to jump in here when I was selling retainers, I'd normally go look, what's your experience with recruiters? Have you ever been ghosted by a recruiter? Yeah, okay. Have you ever briefed a recruiter and not got any candidates? Yeah, okay. Do you know why that has happened? No, they're lazy. They just tell me what I want to hear and then they don't deliver, and I usually create a story and go well, no like. Let me tell you the inside scoop, mr Customer, so you can make a better decision on which agreement you want to go with.

Blake: 37:18

If you were a recruiter and you were having a chat to three different clients, one client said I'll pay you 50% upfront. And the other client said nah, I'll only pay you when the job's you know 100% done. I don't want to do any risk. Who are you going to invest more time in? You're going to invest more time in the retained assignment because it's a guaranteed good use of your time, whereas, let's say, a recruiter's talking to you and they get your job brief and then the next day a retainer comes up, you're dropped. There's no point in working with you if you've got a retainer. Just come through the door. So by going contingent, you're just always going to be at the bottom of the priority list if any other clients come through the door.

Blake: 38:01

So if you want something that's an agreement, you're more of a priority. You're treated like with a first-class service and you're not going to ever get ghosted by the recruiter because now we've got an obligation to make sure you get value out of your fee, then it's a bit of a no-brainer. But if you're happy to be, you know, potentially put at the bottom of the pile when another business comes in and goes hey, I'm, I really want someone. Good, then you need to be fighting for that position, and a retainer is how you fight to stay number one and usually they go fuck, all right, yeah, I guess I don't want to be put at the bottom of the pile every time. I really need this role field. But well, yeah, so just do the retainer, we'll save you some money and we'll give you a double the guarantee period and half the time they go.

Blake: 38:44

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So when you explain the story on like the actual mechanics, on why a recruiter would ghost you or not send you candidates, um, you just go look, why would someone send you a candidate? That's a rock star. If they've got a retained client in the same industry that has already paid them, they'd go. I'll send my best candidates there. Any leftovers, I'll pump them out to this guy because they're not committing to me, so I'll just send them the leftovers like you don't want to do. You don't want to get sent leftovers, do you?

Blake: 39:12

well no, oh, okay, well, yeah, well, let's go retain, then. It makes. Makes so much sense, doesn't it? I guess so yeah, we'll just transcript that and put it in a training manual, but that's what I find is the easiest way to sell retainers you just tell them a story about what happens in a recruiter's day-to-day process, as to why they have bad experience with recruiters and how you can change that with the agreement. Anyway, I digress.

Declan: 39:39

That's bloody good. Back to you, Declan. So what percentage of your roles would be retained?

Amy: 39:45

90% 80% yeah.

Declan: 39:47

Yeah, nice, do you get that? Maybe it's different because you've sold so many. But I get a bit frightened and be like oh shit, I've got to deliver, I've got to deliver and I start wigging out.

Amy: 39:55

I think when you're in the same industry, like Way easier.

Amy: 39:59

It's way easier because you can have one candidate out for three different retained roles and so you're guaranteed to hopefully fill the position. So, for example, I might have three different clients in furniture. If I've got a candidate out to all three clients, then like, hopefully you know I'm going to fill the position and then that's one off. But if you were in like different industries, like if I was in like IT, medical sales, you know, a&d specification sales, and I had three different retain roles, I think that would be a lot harder.

Declan: 40:28

Yeah, that's what you're stepping to me yeah, it's it's.

Amy: 40:31

You can't cross reference, you can, it's over. So for me I'm actually getting retained roles off the back end of really good candidates. So how I really started in the retained space is I would forward a candidate and then like I don't want to pay 22 percent and they've already sort of seen the details, without seeing the resume of who this candidate is, and like I'm like, well, you can do 15%, which is retained. You've already seen what sort of candidates I'm working with. Wouldn't you like rather go with that than like not at all? And they're like oh, yeah, okay.

Amy: 41:00

So that's how a lot of my retain rules did pop up and then obviously off the back end of just building that trust. So if I filled a role with a good client and they had a good experience with myself and maybe they haven't in the past with other recruiters and they've got other roles, I always push it forward Like, hey, look, you paid 22% last time. You've seen the work. Obviously you see what I'm capable of doing. If you pay 15%, it's exclusive to me. You weren't working with any of the recruiters last time, so it's a no-brainer. And then that's how I've been able to, like, I guess, secure some really good clients that only work with me at retain now. It's because they've seen the candidates that I've put forward into the business yeah, what are your thoughts on increasing our fees?

Blake: 41:40

oh well, I was just thinking the other day right. Every year people put up their prices yeah and not many recruiters have the balls to put up their prices because In fact, they probably put them down each year.

Blake: 41:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like I, we never used to charge a flat 22% any role. It used to be like a tiered structure which a lot of recruiters are probably familiar with. You know zero to 60K salary it's 14%. 60 to 100K it's 18%, 100k over. Blah, blah, blah. We made the decision maybe three years ago just to like scrap this whole oh, depending on like, let's calculate the salary and work out the fee rates and all this complicated stuff. So we just decided to go all right, we've got two fee options either 22% if you're not exclusive, or 15%. You pay half up front and then that's it, which makes it far easier to negotiate the pros and cons between just two choices, whereas instead of having like four different rates for four different salary packages and then it's exclusive and then it's retained and it gets overly complicated. We've started now slowly increasing our rates, but we haven't done it for maybe two years. I'm thinking just on face value. If we went 25% non-exclusive, 18% retained, do you think you would have pushback from clients more than usual?

Amy: 43:07

Yeah, just because I know what other recruiters are charging in the industry. Usual, yeah, just because I know what other recruiters are charging in the industry and so I mean it could be different for different industries in recruitment. Like I know, accounting is a lot higher, um, because the pool of candidates is less, so you can charge because it's essentially they they need to fill the roles and like, well, it's for a good accountant, um, they'll just pay whatever. But I think in my, if there's other recruiters, maybe let's just say 15% retained and 22% non-exclusive. We were to move that and we've been already working with the clients at 15%. I think I would have a lot of pushback. They'd probably be like you know.

Blake: 43:46

Just new clients.

Amy: 43:47

Yeah.

Blake: 43:48

I wouldn't typically change the goalposts on existing clients if they've been with us for a while, but do you think the rate would make much of a difference when you send an amazing candidate and let's say they've never seen our terms before, and you just send them the terms and it says 25 and 18. Do you think your conversations would be much different?

Amy: 44:11

Yeah, because even sometimes now I'll get pushback from clients that go, wow, your fees are really high compared to some other agencies, so I mean putting it up again. I think I probably wouldn't even get replies to be honest, oh A-Tongue.

Blake: 44:27

I reckon you'd have the same conversations, because remember when they used to be 20% and we put them up to 22% and everyone in the office was like, oh fuck, what are you doing to us BT, we're not going to win any deals? And then all of a sudden, everyone just got used to it and fucking sold the rate. And now, if we just put it up again, I reckon we will just get used to it and start doing 25%ers.

Amy: 44:46

I mean in the UK it's like 35% exclusive 50% in Japan. Yeah, wow.

Blake: 44:51

Yeah, it's wild. I think the average rate in the US Run a poll what?

Declan: 44:55

should the fees be?

Amy: 44:56

Yeah, I reckon Like yeah, america like average rate, even retained, is like 30%, 35%, yeah, I mean.

Blake: 45:05

We're the lowest charging country in the world. I'm on like recruitment forums and they fucking hate aussie recruiters that try and muscle into like recruit internationally because they they literally sit there and bitch about how aussie recruiters fucking charge. Yeah, undercut everyone at like 10, 15 and like they don't value recruitment over in australia. They're fucking, they just, they just accept any fees, blah, blah, blah. And how can I ever sell a 30% fee when I've got some fucking Aussie who's selling a 14%? That's so funny.

Blake: 45:37

Yeah, yeah, so I think we could slowly increase the rates.

Amy: 45:40

Yeah, you could trial it. Maybe just do it to a couple of people and see what happens. If it doesn't work, go back.

Blake: 45:47

Well, you can lead the charge on that one.

Amy: 45:48

Yeah, yeah.

Declan: 45:50

Awesome, eh, tom Mate, it's good to catch up. Thanks for breaking down your desk. I think there's a lot of good takeaways that people can learn about selling retainers how to double your billings every year. There's not too many recruiters that could come on here and say that, and all at such a young age.

Amy: 46:03

Yeah, Thanks guys.

Blake: 46:08

And congratulations on being Venditto's new partner. Thanks for tuning in to another Confessions of a Recruiter podcast with Blake and Declan. We hope you enjoyed and got a lot of value and insights out of this episode. If you do have any questions or you would like to recommend someone to come on the Confessions podcast, we would love any introductions and remember the rule of the podcast, like share and recommend it to a friend. Until next time,