Matt Cossens (xrecruiter) Confessions of a Recruiter #78

When Matt Cossens swapped his fishmonger apron for the sharp suit of a recruiter, he embarked on a journey that would see him scale the heights to become a million-dollar biller. Our latest guest on "Confessions of a Recruiter," Matt, now the Chief Growth Officer at xrecruiter, unpacks his transformation, revealing the power of a high-energy sales environment and the impact of surrounding oneself with top talent like he did at Greythorne. His story isn't just one of personal triumph; it's a roadmap for any professional hungry to seize success in the recruitment game.

Ever wonder what it takes to catapult from fresh-faced newcomer to an industry standout with 54 placements in a single year? Matt breaks down the behaviors and strategies that have marked his path to recruitment stardom. He stresses the profound influence of mentorship, a laser-focused work ethic, and a mindset that treats every day as a chance to outdo oneself. But it's not all about the grind. Matt shares how affirmations, a clear vision of family and financial freedom, and even the journey home can recharge and refocus one’s drive, transforming the daily hustle into a purposeful quest for excellence.

Our conversation takes you behind the scenes of a professional's life designed with intention and discipline. Matt discusses the art of daily prospecting, the necessity of a structured schedule, and personal development as key contributors to his exceptional track record. For those ready to lead, we dive into Matt’s insights on transitioning from high-performing team member to the helm of a thriving recruitment business. His narrative is a testament to the idea that ambition, when paired with actionable strategies, sets the stage for not only achieving but redefining success in the recruitment industry.

· Our Website is: xrecruiter.io

Transcript

Matt: 0:00

Matt Cossens here, chief Growth Officer at XRecruiter. Today I jumped on Confessions of a Recruiter with Blake and Declan. We talk about performance. We talk about good to great. We talk about making that leap. Let's go.

Blake: 0:19

All right, welcome back to another Confessions of a Recruiter episode, and this is a very, very special episode because we've got none other than the Chief Growth Officer of XRecruiter, matthew Cossens. Thanks for joining us, matthew, thanks for having me boys. So, mate, we're really excited that you're here because the big news came out well when everyone's listening a week ago now you have got an incredible background in recruitment. You've achieved a lot of things, and we were just talking about off-air, just before this started, that you were the first podcast I actually ever listened to in recruitment five years ago. And now here we are today we're working together, talking on a podcast.

Blake: 0:59

Yeah, pretty crazy, eh, amazingly crazy, yeah. So I think what would be really good for everybody is to get a bit of context on who you are when you first got into recruitment, some of your wins maybe the industry that you recruited in as well would be interesting and how you go about your daily life, what your mindset is, because I think that's pretty important for a lot of people listening who want to be a high performer, they want to be excellent, they want to master their craft. They could probably get a lot out of that. So take us back, mate. How did you first get into recruitment?

Matt: 1:31

Yeah, so I fell into recruitment, like I think all good recruiters do. Right, so I was a fishmonger and most people know this story Fishmonger to million dollar biller what's a fishmonger.

Matt: 1:41

So I was like working in a fish shop doing both retail sales and down at the docks so pretty rough. It's a great way to learn about life, great way to get street smart. How'd you get into that? So I literally walked past and they said you know, staff wanted. And I was like, great, I'm working at university, I need a job. You know, let's see if I can jump in there. And that turned into a two or three year kind of filler as I went through university. So pretty of a trippy role. I never thought I'd be a fishmonger, but-.

Declan: 2:10

You're like mate, we've got tuna for 70 bucks a kilo. You were yelling out yeah.

Matt: 2:14

Like all of that part.

Declan: 2:15

Really yeah.

Matt: 2:15

Wow, yeah, proper, old school, you know, like yell at the market. Yeah, it was quite fun. So I kind of started there. I did a degree in HR, knew I wasn't going to be a HR professional and in fact the dean said you'll be a HR nightmare. Maybe I'm not PC enough, which is like recruitment's hard, it sucks, but if you're good at it you can make lots of money. As a 21, 22 year old I was like, okay, that sounds great, I'll give it a go. Interviewed at three places, got offered at two. Interpro turned me down Shout out to Interpro. I turned down all right, but I got offered at Drake and Greythorne and I chose Greythorne and started the NIT recruitment. So they did a six to eight-week kind of boot camp. Then it was jump on the floor, 40 salespeople very kind of Wolf of Wall Street back in those days we're talking 05, massive sales team, global business, and it was sink or swim and I absolutely loved it.

Blake: 3:09

What did you love about it?

Matt: 3:11

Just the energy. Like there's something about a sales floor, right, like in a big sales floor and we probably don't have as many of them these days unless you're in a big national but you know, 40 people, small space, absolute buzz. Everyone there was flying. So their growth trajectory was kind of off the charts. So from 05 to 2010, you know, they kind of scaled to exit and they sold to 510 Group. But just the energy and the people in the room, like there was just so many killers and so many people to learn from, so I was just like a sponge. I was like, yep, sit me by the best people, but they had so many good people to learn from. So I was just like a sponge, like, yep, sit me by the best people, but they had so many good people to learn from. So you were just every day just hearing excellence on the floor and you know what a what a great way to to kind of learn your craft and and and be planted in that kind of an environment 100, so, so great.

Blake: 3:57

This was graythorne, yeah, yeah. And so there was all these really high performers, big sales floor. Do you feel like if you didn't get into recruitment in that environment from day one, the outcome of who you are today would be much different?

Matt: 4:12

Good question. I'm going to say no. I think if you're a driven individual, you find a way right. But certainly if you land in the right place and you're planted in the right soil, you're just going to grow quicker. So it could have landed somewhere else and it would have been a slower journey, sure, but I think it's on you as an individual to be great wherever you are and kind of find that path and find that way. But if you're in the right environment, you just fast track and accelerate that. So that first five years of my career I feel like I did kind of 10X just because I was around the right people and I was learning around the right people. And I think most people they don't think about that when they start out right, they're just okay, I just want to work. It's like. But choosing that right leader, choosing that right culture, that right sales floor, like that can be the difference between being average or being amazing.

Blake: 4:58

Yeah, you know what? It's funny? You say that because I've always been under the mindset of I really don't care what I do for a living. I just want to work with great people that provide value to my life. Like if I was picking up rubbish on the side of the street, but I was with a bunch of guys that I was learning heaps from and I was growing as an individual. I'd be picking up rubbish on the street. I'm not too picky when it comes to the tasks and duties of what we do, but as long as we're doing it with really good people, then that's the buzz. So it sounds like a similar philosophy that you've just explained around. Make sure you get amongst good leaders and good people that are doing stuff, and you'll be able to grow quicker.

Matt: 5:34

Yeah, and I think as a young person, you probably take that a bit for granted, like I probably didn't know at the time. Because you didn't know, I didn't know anything different, right, it's like I got into Grey's and I was like, yep, this is great. I think as you mature and you get older, it's like actually that makes a huge difference and getting that right is so, so, so important.

Blake: 5:51

You know a lot of recruiters that we speak to that are really high performers. All of them go into like super cutthroat environments that are like ultra micromanaging, ultra high volume, ultra pressure, and at the time they all go oh that was tough, that job, and they're all like no one would survive these days in that environment. But because they then they use their hindsight and they go, that was the best job I've ever had because that really crafted who I am today, gave me a really good foundation. So it's interesting, around the leadership piece and getting into a space where you have that opportunity, and at the time you might not realize that you're in a good spot to learn a lot because you're probably under the pressure and you're not seeing the green, I guess. But yeah, it's interesting that you say that because that's a lot of the things that we're talking about all the time. Yeah, you need that as a that you say that because that's a lot of the things that we're talking about all the time.

Declan: 6:45

Yeah, you need that. As a young person, I think that's all you should be looking for from 20 to 30. Like, don't even worry about the money side of things. If you can get around the best people, then the money's going to come.

Matt: 6:54

Yeah, because you build those habits and routines right and relationships, yeah, and they just space. And when I meet people who are average performers, it's usually they're the big fish in the small pond, right, like they're the best biller at their agency. But the best biller is 300K right, whereas if you're surrounded by million dollar billers, it's like, well, 300k people are laughing at you, right, like they don't take you seriously. So it's kind of I think that's the challenge some people have. They just land in this wrong spot and they get this false identity around. It's kind of like when you're at school and you run, you're the fastest person in your school, right, you're running cross-country. You then go to the state championships.

Declan: 7:34

Where the fuck did all these people come from?

Matt: 7:35

You get blasted, you realise you're not even in the game, right. And I think there's a real interesting thing with a lot of performers and I think there's a lot of parallels between sport and business and it's no different. There's a lot of people who go into that environment and then retreat. It's like, no, I'm happy just being the fastest person in my school, but that elite performer or that person with that killer mindset, they get into that environment and it's like that's what spurts them on. It's like, hey, now I want another coach, now I need ABC, now I'm going to train every morning at 5 am because I'm fired up. I think that's no different in recruitment. I think those parallels are really important. So finding that A-grade team like you're going to be miles ahead of those other performers just because you're in the right spot.

Declan: 8:18

Yeah, and it's even like I was chatting to Jack from Yaka and he said because he played under 20s in one from Yakka and he said cause he? He played under twenties and one NRL game and he was like mate, the biggest thing is is feedback. Like you just got to cop feedback, make a decision, and that's why athletes do so well in sales, because no one can handle feedback these days, they just get you know it ends up, you know, not going well if you just give.

Declan: 8:38

But take like, if you're playing footy and it's like mate, hands up, get your fucking hands up, You're going to catch the ball, You're like yep no worries, hands are up and then you just put your hands up and catch the ball and then, like you can progress to the next stage. But I think everyone's getting a bit soft yeah. In that sense you can't do jack shit these days. Even discussing this on the podcast might get a few turned heads Ups.

Matt: 9:00

snowflakes yeah, but I think that coaching and feedback like it's critical, it's so important and there's cultures that just don't have that.

Matt: 9:07

I've worked in environments where it's like if you coach someone on the floor, they kind of look like you, like what, what are you doing? Like I'm not bad at my job, no, I'm just trying to make you better, whereas I think someone who comes from whether it's a team sport or an individual sport and I've done both but if you've played at a semi-elite level, you're used to coaching right. That's just what happens, and I think the people who are like that, they're the people who exceed, because they don't take it personal. It's like that was a great phone call, but you could have done this better, and I was really blessed, kind of early in my career and all the way through, really to have people who would take that investment. So, like Matt, fantastic phone call, you know, but if you ask the question this way, you'll get a better result, or if you ask this, you might get a different outcome, and it's all those little pieces of advice that made a huge difference in that kind of good to great transition.

Blake: 9:56

Yeah, so what was that like in your first year? Because when I was listening to your podcast five, six years ago, you were talking what did you bill in your first year?

Matt: 10:05

of recruitment. Yeah, so I had 54 placements in my first year and billings were kind of mid threes right, because it scales up. So I was a contract contract biller, so it was kind of laying that foundation for year two. Year two I kind of scaled close to 750 and that transition between year two and year three was the first kind of step to a million dollar biller and then from there I've kind of been a million forever or a million plus forever. So my biggest number was 2.3 or 2.35. But I've always kind of sat over that million dollar mark for the rest of the career.

Blake: 10:34

Wow, so you were billing a million bucks. How long ago, 15 years ago, yeah 2008.

Matt: 10:39

You're making me do the maths on the spot, yeah 15 years ago.

Blake: 10:42

So was that like were you a unicorn? Was everyone like holy shit, matt. Third year it was a big number.

Matt: 10:48

Yeah, it was a big number for that level of experience for three years in. But you know, greythorn had million-dollar billers. Like that wasn't foreign territory for them. They had a handful. So in Melbourne they had million-dollar billers Sydney and Canberra and they had million pound billers in the UK. So for them that wasn't like oh my gosh, this guy is unbelievable. It was like yeah, he's really good and I would have been in the top 5% of the company. But it wasn't like, wow, this is territory we haven't seen before.

Blake: 11:15

So what do you put your results down to? Mainly, did you have a really good leader that coached you on calls that you could have done better? As you said, you know good to great, or was it something internally law of averages?

Matt: 11:28

Yeah, kind of a handful of things there. So, yes, good leader, very good mentors outside of the business. So I sought out mentors outside of the business and you know I've spoken openly. David Carman was a very good mentor of mine early days, particularly in that Grey's Lawn journey. But I sought out mentors outside of recruitment as well. Had a couple of clients who are mentors Even today. I have four or five really good mentors that I talk to for any decisions I make. So I think that was key. But the big one was just hustle and mindset right. So I turned up every day thinking I was the best in Melbourne, right, and people laugh at that and they go. Did you actually say that in the mirror? Yes, I did right, because I'm huge on affirmations, I'm huge on how you turn up, I'm huge on kind of triggers and walking through doors and having a little phrase that kind of locks you in for the day. So mindset was a big one. And then just grind. And they were the days where the grind was expected.

Matt: 12:25

Again coming back to kind of people being soft, it's like people do a nine-hour day and think that's hard now, right. Like if you did that at graythorne or in any of the environments I was in, they'd be like, why are you working a half? Like people would joke like oh, half day today, maddie, right. So it's like you were expected to do at least 10 hours a day, so I was in at seven, I was out at six most nights.

Blake: 12:38

Um, let me ask you this so when you're working and putting in all these hours that, frankly, I don't think a lot of new recruiters do they're certainly within the you know eight to five let's go home. So did someone tell you you need to put in extra hours when you first started, and that's when you thought, okay, I'm going to break the shackles off and just do whatever it takes. Or was this something that you chose to do on your own accord?

Matt: 13:04

There's two things there. So one, there was an expectation. So I turned up and they're like, well, your contracted hours are 8.30 to 5.30, but everyone does 8 till 6, right, as a minimum, that's what we expect. I was like, okay, cool. So I was just like, well, I'm just's a part of the result, um, and you've got to, but you've got to know what you're sacrificing for, right.

Matt: 13:56

right.

Matt: 13:56

So I was very open with my wife. So I'm very, you know, communicate early, communicate often. We do our goals together. Here's our goal, here's what we want to achieve. To do that, this is what it means I'm in a sales business, this is the money we could achieve. But that means this level of commitment, this level of hours, and it comes back to that kind of time, talent intensity that I talk about often. It's like you've got to put in the time, you've got to be growing your talent and you've got to be intense when you're in. So you know, any role I've been in, that level of intensity through the day is just through the roof right, because there's no point in doing 12 hours at 50%. You want to do 10 to 12 hours at a hundred, a hundred plus.

Declan: 14:32

Yeah, I feel like that was similar to us when we started in recruitment. We'd get excited about coming in on a Saturday to build a hit list. We'd be ready to go for Monday hit list at night, falling asleep on the laptop, Deanna's like mate, where do you work? This is not normal.

Matt: 14:44

Yeah.

Declan: 14:44

Like and. I'm falling asleep in bed next to her trying to. I have to get this hitty ready for tomorrow.

Matt: 14:49

Yeah, and always just listening right Like I'm like dad BD, you know I'm down at the playground with the daughter and it's like you hear someone talk about IT because I was a tech recruiter.

Blake: 14:59

It's like Did you have any pushback with your partner? Because I'm just thinking about a lot of conversations that I've had with other high performers that sacrifice a lot, that are really devoted to success in their career, and sometimes there's a lot of friction between them and their partner on, hey, you need to be home more. Why aren't you home more, all this kind of stuff. So was there any difficult or like challenges personally, when you decided that, no, I'm going to be an elite performer, I know what I'm sacrificing? What was the conversation like at home?

Matt: 15:32

Yeah, so, um, so shout out to the wife she's amazing, um, she's been brilliant, right. And I think a big part of that is is that communication piece right? So doing goals together, having that open conversation? She knew what it meant, right? So it was like this is the path I'm traveling down, this is what it means for our family, this is what we're going to achieve Now.

Matt: 15:50

If we weren't achieving it, I think we would have had difficult conversations. But if you set that tone, you set that. You know, here's the plan. I need five years, I need, you know, whatever, whatever that timeframe is. Then you just got to go and bloody deliver, right. And because I was delivering, because she could see the fruits of that labor and life was becoming easier for us, it was like, well, keep doing what you do.

Matt: 16:10

But it's about that open communication and that changes every year and the goal setting process we go through really kind of locks us in, because it's very clear that, okay, you want to achieve this, I want to achieve this as a family, we want to achieve these things together. But then what does that mean? What are we willing to sacrifice and what is that sacrifice? Because that's the part people miss, right? You can have these big goals, but you haven't had an open conversation around sacrifice and what it actually means. That's where you have conflict. So we've never had conflict over me working too hard, and she knows my personality type. It's like if I'm interested in anything, it's like if I'm interested in anything, it's like I'm all in ice baths. Good example. You boys have done that with me before. It's like that started with a hey, I've got into some breath work. I've done my first ice bath. I now do it every day. She does it every day. You know, we're way certified. We've gone crazy.

Matt: 16:55

Right, we've gone absolutely crazy. But she knows that's my personality type as well. Right, if I'm into something I'm all, I'm not interested, cool, I'll do it once and I'm done. But I think that communication part is the part people miss. And then also understanding, say, their love language, what makes them tick and what are those things you're going to do for the family so that you're on with your family?

Matt: 17:19

So when I go on holidays, I'm not sitting on the phone, I don't take the phone, don't take the laptop. It's like if I'm locked in with the kids, I'm locked in with the kids. You catch me Saturday at breakfast. I'm at breakfast, there's no phone ringing. I leave it in the car Because that undivided intention is just as important for them. So if I'm going to lock in at work, I've got to also be able to flick that switch and lock in at home. And people miss that, right, they get home, they're tired and if we come back to say mindset, the doorframe trigger I have when I walk through my door at home is they deserve my best. So I sit in the car and I know like that's what I'm going to say in my head as I walk through the front door. So it's like I have to be ready to live that right. But if you can do that, then I think that really helps.

Declan: 17:58

And what are the building blocks to get there? So, like you know, you come home after a 10 or 12 hour day. Your missus is like where you been. Why are you working late?

Blake: 18:07

And then oh yeah, where you been Work.

Matt: 18:08

Yeah yeah, we all know the conversation.

Declan: 18:12

And then. So how do you build up to that? Because it's all well and good, like to be like all right, I'm going to be my best self, walk in and be your best self. There's obviously that's a, that's a skill. Yeah, that's got to be learned. So, like, can you summarize how you learn that skill? Or how can that a novice person that's feeling the heat from these misses yeah, to be coming home and being like I've got my best self as I walk through the door. Do you start, like two kilometers away from your house, envisioning what that's going to look like?

Matt: 18:37

good question. So you've got to have a bit of a ritual and a routine, right? So everything I do is around ritual, routine habits. So, whether that's the morning habit, the evening habit, it's no different from when I go home. So I drive home in the car, so I usually have a podcast on or some kind of personal development, usually for half the journey home. I like to have 45 minutes to an hour, depending on traffic. So I like half of that to be learning something.

Matt: 18:59

I don't know. It's just a space that I enjoy, unless I'm making work phone calls, which you know in which case I'll do that instead. But once I get off the freeway in Ringwood, which is about 10 minutes from my house, it's like, okay, now I just need to put on some tunes, get myself in the headspace, get my energy back and be ready to walk through that door. So for me it's just about building in that habit and then it being big enough for you, right? It's not like you can't just go. Okay, cool, I've got a trigger, I'm going to walk through and everything's going to be amazing. Do you know what I mean? But it's like you've got to. You've got to really spend that time in some gratitude, Like what is it? So I really use gratitude as a?

Matt: 19:37

Well, you know, how do I feel about my family, how do I feel at my why. A huge part of my why is around family and setting them up generationally. And I think if you've got that, it's really easy to kind of fall into that space. Right, Because I don't do work for me. Right? Like, work for me isn't about my ego. Hey, I build X, I do Y. It my ego. Hey, I bill X, I do Y. It's not about that For me. It's about and I'll use another sporting analogy, I think about the name on the back of the jersey, right, Not Matt as a person, it's the name on the back of the jersey. So what am I doing for my family? What am I doing first generationally? That's kind of what drives me and that's not about wealth, that's about how do they think differently. Because I was here, you know, like I want my kids to think differently to how I thought.

Blake: 20:32

my dad set a great foundation for hard work, but I know my girls think differently because of what I do, you know, just pivoting to your performance and your habits and your rituals and all the crazy stuff that you do. I usually refer to you as the australian version of goggins I'll take that.

Blake: 20:47

I'll take that, yeah, yeah, because because you certainly do have, um, a really strong ethos of work hard, get outside your comfort zone, don't be a little bitch. Yeah, just remove all obstacles, like remove all the the reasons why you can't do something, and just do it, which is it's really um, it's really magnetic, like when you, when you're around someone that really lives and breathes, that it makes you feel like you can also do that too. Yeah, so it's it's really fun being around you and talking to you around what your habits are and what your philosophy is and mindset, because it kind of overflows. And I'm sure, with the people that you've coached in the past, either internally at your previous employment or externally you know external recruiters that seek out your, your advice and your mentorship it really goes a really, really long way. So I just I thought I'd bring that up because I think that's a funny analogy to use, because really, you know, cage fighting was it an ultra marathon?

Matt: 21:51

Yeah, 80ks yeah.

Blake: 21:52

Ultra marathon cage fighting. Maybe we can try and get you to do like the world's most amount of pull-ups or something like that over the next 12 months.

Declan: 22:00

I think 4,000 pull-ups in 24 hours.

Matt: 22:02

Yeah, yeah, give it a go. I know the Australian Burpee champion. He did 11,000. Did he? Yeah, oh, you'd smash that mate?

Blake: 22:08

I definitely wouldn't.

Declan: 22:09

Shout out to RJ.

Blake: 22:12

So, yeah, it's really infectious basically to feel that energy. Yeah, so you're at Greythorne. You did really well in your earlier years. You built up to a million bucks. Was it a cold desk essentially?

Matt: 22:24

Yeah, and it was split. So you know they had five people doing infrastructure. So I started in contract infrastructure help desk desktop support infrastructure engineers, then moved into project services after I won a few big clients and then, you know, kind of just blew up from there. But they had five people in that space when I started because you had 40 sales people right and they actually gave me I thought, the worst desk at the time and it turned out to be the best desk.

Blake: 22:49

Yeah right, Because of what you made it. Yeah.

Matt: 22:52

So it was like underdeveloped, nothing happening. It was like logistics utilities. So they did it by like industry sector and that sector for them was undercooked. Three years later it was the best sectors they had, sector for them was undercooked.

Declan: 23:05

Um, three years later it was the best sectors they had. Yeah, and mate, a big thing is like leveling up, like watching or reading your blog post yesterday. It's sort of been your mission the whole way through your whole career. Um, and it's a massive theme at Hector Recruiter, like I think that's one of the exciting things that brought us together. Yeah, um, staff get bonuses to level up and self-learn and develop, and same with yourself. What, um, what did you do early on? That was so critical Cause I think that story of you paying the consultant or that recruitment trainer all of your salary is, you know, putting your money where your mouth is very early on. You're 23 at the time, like 22. How do you, how did you know these moves to make, or was it just? Did it feel natural and tell us about the story as well? Yeah, yeah yeah.

Matt: 23:47

So I didn't actually end up paying it, which is good. You know, I was blessed that he he didn't, uh, didn't take it. But um, yeah, I think a few people know the story. I reached out to a mentor who was coaching a lot of the ceos, uh, nationally and and rang him after a training course and he's like, like Matty, with all due respect, I coach this person, this person, this person, the who's who of recruitment, and financially it's not going to work for you. And I was like I'll just give you the whole salary, like I get paid commission, I'm confident I'm going to make it happen. He's just like you're crazy, you are a bad man, I'll just coach you, I'll just look after you. And that turned into like a five-year relationship and to this day I can ring him and seek advice.

Matt: 24:28

But I think it's about wanting to get in front of better people, right, and wanting to get into different rooms. So even now, if I see someone who's got an attribute that I aspire to have, whether that's in business, whether that's in family, whether that's in fitness I am not the best version of me yet. You can't win that game. But it's like if I find that person I want to reach out to them and learn. So I still have that now.

Matt: 24:50

So if I look at my mentors, I'm blessed with four or five amazing mentors, but I've got no problem with coming up to you on the street if I think you've got something or I see you communicate a certain way and being like hey, can I sit down and buy you lunch. I shared a story and one of the guys I used to work with and this didn't happen because the car didn't come back but there was a Lambo Urus in where I park my car normally and I was like no, I'm just going to leave a note on their windscreen. He's like why? And I was like well, because they've clearly achieved a level of success that I haven't got a Eurus in the driveway yet.

Blake: 25:22

We'll say yet.

Matt: 25:24

But I'm like you know, maybe I can learn something from this person. And he's like dude, you're crazy. I was like what's the worst that can happen? Right, they don't ring me back, right, they throw the note in the bin. But I was like if I see the person getting into the car, I'm going to be like hey, can I take you for lunch Because of rejection? We're in recruitment, right, we get rejected all the time, but why wouldn't you pursue excellence? But the path has already been stepped out, right? Like I look at a Goggins and don't get me wrong, I'll take Australian Goggins all day every day.

Matt: 25:53

But, like, if I met someone like him, I'd want to go to lunch. I'd be the guy who'd be like, okay, I know he's going for a 30K run, I'm going to go for. Yeah, I'm just going to turn up at the run, right, because I want to steal that knowledge, right. That mindset is next. Like, I'm not at that level of mindset, but you've got to go and find those people and not be afraid to just pick up the phone, and I think what most people will find if they're listening, if you make that call and you have that vulnerability. I've not had someone turn me down to be a mentor, either paid or unpaid.

Declan: 26:19

They're either pumped to to come on like, whether it be a podcast or a coffee or a lunch.

Matt: 26:24

And awesome performers want to see other people succeed, right. So anyone who reaches out to me and I coach a couple of people around the world who've just reached out to me where it's like I'll help you because you've made the effort right and so many people invested into me, so why wouldn't I invest into that next generation? Again, that comes back to that. Why that legacy? So outside of the family? The other big part for me is I want to see other people succeed. I want to see them level up.

Matt: 26:48

Like that's the thing that fires me up more than anything is seeing you boys kill it, see the team kill it, see them achieve their dreams, Because then they pass it on to the next right. So it's that multiplication effect of getting other people to that level of performance.

Declan: 27:04

It's that place of abundance which is just the best See them grow. And what about? I feel like there's a lot of rusty nail syndrome where people you know? Have you heard about the dog who's sitting on a rusty nail?

Matt: 27:15

No, tell me Where's he going with the rusty nail? Yeah, let's hear this.

Declan: 27:18

Dog and the rusty nail. So homeowner gets home and he's chatting to his dog and this dog's like oh, I'm so sore. And he's like why, what's wrong, mate? And he goes oh, I found the problem, mate. It looks like you're sitting on a rusty nail. You've got a rusty nail in your backside. And he's like yeah, I know. He's like well, why don't you just take it out?

Declan: 27:41

And he goes oh, cause then I'll yeah so, like, how do you break people down to get them to the point where they can actually reach out and not be feared, like it's? It's like so many people sit there failing and just like complaining and going, it's not gonna get better, it's not gonna get better. Like how do you, if you can get them past that period to the point where they want to put a letter on a lambo and say, hey, meet me, I'll buy you lunch. Yeah, like how do you? How do you break people? How can people get out of that rusty nail syndrome and actually make that first?

Declan: 28:09

move is it just because in like I'm not, I'm on the same thing? Like you know, prime example, I was like, oh, how good would matt be to be a part of the team. And that was a, you know, a passing comment four months ago. And here we are?

Declan: 28:21

there's all these little intricacies that's brought us all together over the years. Yeah, um, and like Blake's done it with multiple people, I do the same thing. Like politicians and, um, big business people around here will come on a previous podcast and they're all happy to do it. Yeah, but like people struggle to just reach out, yeah, and it blows my mind because the the value that we've all experienced is just absurd. Like everyone's happy to do it, but I don't know how do you get people just to break out? Is it fear? Is it them being proud? Is it ego, like to me? I can't understand why you wouldn't, yeah, why you wouldn't want, why you wouldn't just fucking.

Matt: 28:55

The biggest hack is just asking somebody's time and repeat it. Yeah, I, I don't know what. I think the root cause is different for everyone, right, right, but it's the million-dollar question. I wish I could get everyone to that point, but I can't make you want what you don't want, right, and I think that's the problem is some people, they like that place of complaining, they like that place of comfort, right, discomfort sucks.

Matt: 29:15

I shared with you boys earlier in the week the book Winning by Tim Grover and it's like how do you define winning? Winning's hard, it sucks, it's toil, it's heartache, it's late nights, it's early mornings, it's grind, it's horrible. But you're going to have some championship moments along the way, right, that make it amazing. But most people don't want that grind, right, they don't want that hard work, they don't want that sacrifice. It's like everyone says to me oh, your life is so easy, cool, do you want to come and follow me again in 2005? Right, and do you want to go on this 15 year journey? It's like, yeah, it looks easy and great now, but that's through ridiculous amounts of hustle, right, but most people don't want to do that. Um, yeah, and that's just the way it.

Declan: 29:54

Is comfortable is nice for some people yeah, because you get to the point now where you're like, fuck, this is so fucking hard and then you're like this is the next phase of growth. Anytime something gets really fucking hard and you're like, what the fuck? The next phase of growth? Anytime something gets really fucking hard and you're like, what the fuck? The next time is just like obscene growth. Winning gets harder every time.

Matt: 30:09

The better you get, I think, the harder winning becomes, and I love that. But most people don't love that. They don't want to go like, okay, I've got to push my body to another place. You see that all the time and I think that's the biggest risk in our industry particularly in any industry that's performance-led is you can get to a level of comfort easily, so you start in discomfort Okay, maybe I'm starting out in recruitment. It sucks, it's hard, I want to make some money. You then get to your $100,000 or your $150,000, and it's like, maybe I don't want anything anymore. I see so many people who plateau when they get to that level of confidence. But you could do two, three, four, five. There's people I coach who do seven figures in recruitment, not in their own agency, working for someone else, and that's not billings, that's what they get paid.

Matt: 30:54

That's what they get paid. So they're doing two, two and a half. There was a guy at OREC who was doing 3.2, 3.1, 3.2, right, big numbers, huge commission checks most driven people I've ever met. But so many people will get to that 150 and be like I'm good, tap out, right, I'm done. And I wish I knew that you know that secret sauce. But I think the-.

Matt: 31:17

It's not having a goal past the goal. Yeah, correct, you just got to keep pushing right and you've got to have those people around you who show that excellence is way, way ahead of you, and it's about having those. Again, it comes back to environment, or seeking out an environment where you've got those people who are pushing you or you've got that leader who says you could do more.

Blake: 31:34

Okay. So if there are any recruiters out there that are interested to find out what it's like to have a VA, support them in their role whether that be to to bill more, reduce tasks that they don't enjoy doing or be a more effective recruiter in their niche then we definitely recommend reaching out to the outsource people or top reach out to them, inquire on how they can implement a va in your agency and to support you. And if you mention x recruiter or confessions of a recruiter, they will give you a 13% discount off your bill per month on this VA. That will allow you to scale your business, scale your desk and to bill more and make more money. So go reach out to the outsource people, say confession, sent you, get your discount and see what is possible.

Blake: 32:25

I think a lot of people have a disjoint between their internal ambitions and their external actions. I know for me when I first started in recruitment well before I started in recruitment generally, when I was growing up I felt like I had a lot of skill, talent, ambition, I'm going to be something great, blah, blah, blah, but my external actions never aligned with what I thought. How good I was and it wasn't until I finally I don't know, broke the shackles or got out of my own way of short-term gratification where, once my external actions aligned with my internal values and thought processes, that I actually started elevating a lot further. And I see that with a lot of people, you'll sit down with them and you'll go, what do you want to achieve? And they're like I want to achieve this, I want that, I want this.

Blake: 33:17

It's like, well, what are you doing today to get there? And they're like, oh, nothing, I'm just doing this. And it's like really easy, it's only like changing 10% of your daily routine and you'll probably double your outcomes. But for some reason they just can't get past this first base hurdle of trying to overcome these short-term gratifications, whether it be, oh, I'm just going to watch Netflix, I'm just going to order Uber Eats. Oh, I can't be bothered doing BD calls today, just the really little things that end up compounding quite a lot.

Blake: 33:56

Decisions on feelings, yeah, decisions on feelings, and I think Matt brings up a really interesting point. I think that I heard you in our 90 day induction programs at X Recruiter is I'm not here to motivate you. I don't believe in motivation. I believe in discipline and good habits.

Matt: 34:13

Motivation is bullshit in the nicest way possible. Right, like, if I have to motivate you, I'm going to get tired. You're going to get tired and it's not going to happen. Right, like, motivation will help you, maybe one day in a hundred. Right, where it's like I'm struggling Okay, cool, I listen to cool, I, I, I listened to something.

Matt: 34:30

I get G'd up. I, I, I make it happen. It's discipline and habits all day. Right, it's doing things you don't want to do, doing them with excellence when you don't feel like it. Yeah, that's what you need.

Matt: 34:41

Um, so many people like oh, I need to be. If someone says to me in an interview I need to be motivated, it's like cool, wrong, tick, yeah, you're gone. Yeah, next, because you just can't do it. I can't make you want what you don't want. Yeah, like, if I need to motivate you to get there, you're the wrong person. I want that person who's coachable, a sponge, who's just like Matt. I'm just going to grind right, point me in the right direction, give me the framework, give me the tools.

Matt: 35:05

Success leaves clues, you know, and I'll follow that to a T, and I think that's what people miss is they all live life by accident, so I talk all the time around life by design instead of life by accident, right? So what do you want to achieve? Cool, now let's break that down into a plan, yeah, and if that plan's not working, let's tweak the plan. Let's move the plan. But most people fail through lack of activity, right? Lack of momentum, lack of discipline, um, on basic, simple things, that's right. You, you should any role, whether it's recruitment, whether it's any role you do, you should know the top five things that that that move the needle right, that make you successful. Just do them every day, every single day.

Declan: 35:41

What are the top five?

Matt: 35:42

for the people that don't know. Yeah, so if I, if I'm looking at recruitment, there's probably not. I don't even think there's five in recruitment right. Number one is prospecting every day. Right, you have to be doing it every day.

Declan: 35:50

What if you have 200 jobs on?

Blake: 35:52

Yeah, what if you're really busy?

Matt: 35:53

Yeah, yeah, what if? Yeah, what if. What if your dog ran out of the house?

Blake: 35:57

that morning.

Matt: 35:59

And sitting on a rusty nail.

Declan: 36:02

So 20 jobs Still prospect. Find a way to make it happen and, if they're contingent, prospect them into retained or exclusive. Yeah, retained or exclusive.

Matt: 36:09

You bang on and I think so many people use that as an excuse. I've got five jobs on now Cool, what's the likelihood of filling those five jobs? Normally, when you get under the covers those five jobs, half of them probably aren't qualified and there's maybe, if you're lucky, one story. But the great recruiters I know are prospecting every day. There's a person I coach at the moment In his first month back in January, 90 client meetings Wait, what 90 client meetings In a month? In a month he booked Right 90, 9-0.

Declan: 36:41

Throughout the year.

Matt: 36:42

No, for the next kind of six, four to six weeks. That's three a day, every day. Yeah, yeah, that's what excellence looks like. How did he do that Prospecting? And so when I meet people and they're like I don't have time to prospect, it's like cool, this person does over 2 million and I won't say their name for confidentiality, but they do over 2 million. They've booked 90 client visits. You can imagine the outcomes that have come out number of jobs, number of connections. And we rolled into the next month and the number was very similar and I'm like damn, like that's excellence, right, he knows.

Blake: 37:15

He's listening right now. We know who he is. He's got me like Matty. Just tell everyone who I am, just drop the name, big fella.

Matt: 37:24

But then I meet recruiters and they're like they can't make 90 BD calls a month. No, I'm telling you now, I don't think every call was a yeah, cool, come and meet me, right. So that's what excellence looks like. But you've got to have those things right and most people don't have that level of grind.

Blake: 37:43

Done Okay, so one's prospecting every day, yeah.

Matt: 37:46

So prospecting every day huge one, right? You need to be talking to candidates. It's simple. You need to be talking to candidates, lead generating, doing your job every day. You need to be picking up jobs every day, right. And to pick up jobs every day, you need to be doing the prospecting part really well and you just need to be over-delivering, right.

Matt: 38:04

And what I mean by that is, if we look at today's world, everyone you go to a cafe, you get the level of service you expect or less. Very few places wow me in terms of customer service. Your job as a recruiter is to wow people and make those moments really, really clear. So if I'm interviewing someone, interviewing a candidate, I'm very clear on this is what working with me looks like. I'll always return your phone calls. I'll always be transparent. This is what we're going to do every step of the process. And then I own that process because candidates become clients.

Matt: 38:34

But that simple act of over-delivery year one, two, three, 10 gives you a name and reputation in the market that you can hold up to. And once you've got that trust, once you've got those relationships, then you're less sensitive to price, a lot more retained work, a lot more exclusive work and people know what good looks like, then, because you're spelling it out to them, You're not just being good, You're highlighting how good you are in a very humble, quiet way. I do exactly the same with clients. You're going to work with me. This is how I work. This is the process, whether it's contract or perm. These are my expectations. I'm guaranteeing you an outcome here. This is how I'm guaranteeing that outcome.

Matt: 39:11

So I think that's. The other thing people miss is, again, they either get excited by a job oh cool, I've got a job off, I go but they don't think about well, how am I setting myself apart? Because if you can set yourself apart in every process one, two, three, 10 years that's how you build a brand, that's how you build a reputation. Of course, there's other ways you can do it on social and all that proof and all of that stuff is also very valid. But at the end of the day, word of mouth trumps everything.

Blake: 39:35

Yeah, okay. So prospecting over delivering? Yeah, candidate activity. Candidate activity. Do you do anything like time blocking for BD or anything along those lines? Yeah, so you have to right.

Matt: 39:48

So show me your schedule that shows me your success. So if I meet a recruiter and they're like I don't have a schedule, I just kind of wing it. It's like great, you're probably a 400K biller and there's nothing wrong with that. But the excellence or that scale from good to great is often found in your calendar, right? So where is that time for prospecting? Where is that time for the candidate part that you know you need to do, that lead generation part that you know you need to do? And, of course, have that room in the middle of the day for proactive, reactive firefighting poo happens, deal with that. But you've got to have your day scheduled out like that and you've got to be militant with it, right, don't be like, okay, the client said, and this is what I get all the time. Oh, but the client said they could only meet at Friday at nine o'clock. Come on now, right, Like, if the client really values what you do. You're telling me they're not going to book another time. You're telling me you can't push back on that. Um, but so many recruiters, that's what they do to to get away from the discomfort, right. So they book a client meeting cause I don't want to be here for the BD, the BD hour of power. I go and book things, or I've got interviews or I need to close this role. No, you just need to get your schedule right. So, setting up that schedule and tweaking that as you go and learning from others okay, what are other people doing schedule wise that might work better, whether that's BD in the morning versus BD in the afternoon, right, every sec there will have its own quirks, right, but you've got to like that.

Matt: 41:07

Schedule is what drives success, and that's no different inside of work and outside of work. If I see someone's schedule outside of work, I can tell you how committed they are to what they do. Right, if you're on Netflix every night or you're scrolling on TikTok or whatever people are doing these days, it's like cool, I know you're not that hungry, right? So, personal development that would be the other one I'd put in your list of five must-haves. You have to have half an hour hour a day without fail, and that's the one people don't do, but they'll watch four hours of Netflix a night. It's like how bad do you want to grow? So you're a salesperson, you're a recruiter? Okay, what's core to your craft? Sales relationships, marketing, social media, how to close a deal, psychology, all of those things, but what investment are you putting into your craft?

Blake: 41:53

You know, it's funny that you say that and it really resonated with me when you first brought it up during one of the inductions and you said something along the lines of are you just expecting your work experience to get you better or are you doing anything outside of actual your work experience?

Blake: 42:13

Because if you just think, I've been doing this for four years, so I'm just naturally getting better. Yeah, you might be a little bit, but you're probably not actually being great if you're not spending outside of work hours to hone your craft, whether it be sales, communication, all this kind of stuff and that's definitely something that I don't know. Any recruiters, or a very minimal amount of recruiters, that are proactively investing their own money into getting better at their craft, whether they work for an agency or have their own agency. That's something that I think maybe a lot of people lack. So what are some of the things that someone could do right now outside of business hours, in their own time, and invest in themselves? Is there anything that you go you need to I don't know pick up this book or listen to this podcast, or what kind of personal development stuff are we talking?

Matt: 43:02

Yeah. So I'm going to touch on a couple of points first and then I'll answer your question. So when I look at, say, four year recruiter, it's like are you a four year recruiter or have you had one year four times over? Right, and that happens along. It's actually you're a one year recruiter, like you've never actually got better, you've never actually grown Right, and the secret sauce there is that is the personal development bit. Is that getting better? And yes, some of that life by design right. Like you're the author of the book right, write a fricking damn good book right. But where can you start? Simple, like you know what are those core skill sets? Pick up a book right. Who is the leader in that space? So, if I'm looking at sales, there's a bunch of great people you could read from. But you know, I've had the opportunity to have lunch with Jack Daly. He's written Hyper Sales Growth awesome book. Anthony Iannarino has written a bunch of books. Jeb Blunt you can find them online. If you're not a reader, you can get into a podcast.

Blake: 43:58

Jeb Blunt's Fanatical Prospector. Yeah, sales gravy, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

Declan: 44:00

Sales IQ sales gravy fanatical prospector.

Matt: 44:02

all good books, right, and you're going to have takeaways. You can't read that content and not get better as a salesperson, right, you need to invest in courses. And then I'm going to go back to that sport parallel. I look at LeBron James. Right, everyone would say he's not the GOAT, jordan's the GOAT, just FYI. But he spends a million dollars a year on his body, right, because his craft is basketball. Right Now he earns, you know, 30, 40, plus endorsements, whatever. So it's probably 1% of his income. But no recruiters wouldn't be spending 1%, 10% of their income. It's like go on the courses, get the learning.

Matt: 44:39

Why would you not meet someone who's more advanced than you and take those skills and take those learnings? You know, if it's leadership, john Maxwell, you know. Again, I've had lunch with John Maxwell, did his course, paid extra to go to the lunch and in that half an hour that was worth the extra 500 bucks, because you're sitting somewhere. Who's written 90 books just on leadership, and he was like open Q&A, awesome. But you need to invest.

Matt: 45:04

If you're not a recruiter investing in yourself, you're kidding yourself. Just spend the money and start out. One, two, three K, whatever. It's tax deductible, why would you not do it. Find a coach right and, it's interesting, the great people are willing to do that. If I look at the people I coach, they're all over a million bucks, they're all running great businesses and they're the ones who are seeking me out. It's not the person who wants to go good to great, it's the person who's great, who's like hey, how do I go from great to whatever? The next level is, whether that's in work, whether that's outside of work, whether that's all of that together. They're the people who are seeking me out.

Blake: 45:39

Yeah, 100%. So what's the biggest difference between someone that wants to go from good to great and then great to pinnacle?

Matt: 45:47

That's a deep question, man. I think that good to great it's like part of that will be you've got a talent, part of that will be you've honed that talent but you haven't really unlocked all the keys yet. What is good, actually, before we go into that yeah, so I'm going to say good is $400,000 to $500,000, right.

Matt: 46:05

If you're at $400,000 to $500,000, you're good, you've shown that you've got a level of capability, You've got a skillset. For me, you're not great unless you've hit that million dollar number right. And that journey from good to great a lot of that is just things you don't know. So it is your schedule, it is being willing to say no to clients, it is taking better job briefs. There's so many things you can pick up where you can get these one percenters, where you can find that uplift just by tweaking right. So the 90-day induction we do a big part of that is how do you think, how do you turn up? What is excellence in the recruitment process? How do we build that out? How do you sharpen up everything that you're doing? Good to great. So I think that jump is actually one of the easier jumps because it's just about what you don't know. I think that jump from great to pinnacle, that's the harder jump, right.

Blake: 46:52

Okay. So just to cap off on that recap, sorry. So, from good at 500K to great at a million bucks, that's a pretty easy jump, I think. Yeah, okay. So you're pretty confident if someone is billing 500K, you'd be able to get them to billing a million bucks, should they have the ambition that they want to get there.

Matt: 47:12

Yeah, ambition and drive right. So ambition is like that's a lovely. It's kind of a bit like motivation right. For me it's more the drive and sacrifice. If you've got the drive and the sacrifice, that journey is simple. It really is simple because you can just deconstruct what someone does, challenge their mindset, challenge their identity, how they turn up to work, tie in their goals and then just break it down right, and it's usually just steps.

Matt: 47:36

It's very straightforward, I think, to go that good to great, that great to pinnacle, that's hard because pinnacle is undefined, right? So if I look at the people who are excellent, who are great, you know mil plus, and they're looking at kind of, what is that journey? It's different for everyone and of course it's different for everyone in every space, but usually that good to great is just half a mil to a mil. That mil plus is more. How do I switch off when I get home? How do I build a better relationship? How do I have it all when you can't have it all? So how do I, you know, build two million bucks, be in good shape, be a great dad or great mom and do all the things?

Blake: 48:15

That's funny. It's like almost full circle yeah, start again. So it's like what are you going to sacrifice to get from 500K to a mil? And then, once you're at a mil, how are you going to get back to getting your work I wouldn't say work-life balance, but getting your house in order, your personal life, and how you can level up that, because I guess you've been sacrificing to get from 500K to a mil. Is that right?

Matt: 48:35

Yeah, and it's kind of how do you get that integration right? Because your skill sets. So if you look at time, time, talent, intensity, your talent has gone through so that journey, 500 to a mil, your talent has increased significantly. You've won some of your time back because you're working smarter as cliche as that is, you're working smarter, you know where you can win that time back and hopefully your intensity is there either way. But you might've got more intense on that journey as well.

Matt: 48:59

Once you get to that level, it is kind of then, well, what does success look like now? Because you've done the money part right and once you get to a level of performance you won't clip back. I haven't met a million dollar biller who's like, oh, all of a sudden I'm back doing 500. It's like once you get to a standard and you set that standard in your mind and that becomes your identity or who you are, I'm a million dollar biller Not that you'd sing that from the rooftops and I actually hate that title. But once you get to a level of performance you won't go back.

Matt: 49:26

A great performer will make money, you know, in a market that's good down, you know up down or sideways. But then it's about how do I then weave in these other things. You know, how do I win it all right? And that's a lot of the conversations I have with people who I coach is I openly say you can't have it all, but how do I win it all to a point where I'm happy? So we, you know, do a circle of you know, circle of life, you know, family, friends, uh, hobbies, holidays, fitness, whatever. How do we get that to 10 out of 10 and what does that look like?

Declan: 49:53

and how do?

Matt: 49:53

I have that conversation with my significant other. How do I have that conversation with my kids? And again, what am I willing? Sacrifice is still that key question. What are you willing to sacrifice?

Blake: 50:03

Well, what is the sacrifice, though I mean, because sometimes I speak to recruiters and, and you, and you go look, are you prepared for the next day?

Blake: 50:12

is your day set up so you can walk into your day and absolutely nail it? And most of the time it's like, oh no, I just turn up and go, all right, what am I doing today? Yeah, and then my next question is all right, well, what did you do last night? When you went home like, oh, just sat on tiktok watch the tv, I was like, don't you have better things to do? Like, wouldn't you rather be performing better in your role and just sacrificing? I don't even think that's a sacrifice, but just substituting the brain dead stuff for progress. And half the time when they realize that and they go, you know what I'm literally. I've got literally nothing better to do than to just perform better at my job. Like, if I just get out of my own way, I'll be able to perform better, life gets easier, I get to pay my debt down and, yeah, life just gets 10 times better when you're actually successful.

Matt: 50:59

Yeah, yeah, but people don't set goals right. Again, they live life by accident. So it's like, well, why would I do that? Or you can't see that direct correlation. It's like going to the gym right, go to the gym for a month, you're probably not going to see any change. Go to the gym for five years, probably you would hope I've got a rig if I'm eating clean and doing the right things. It's no different with personal development.

Matt: 51:18

The value isn't in book one, book 10. The value is in book 200, right, where you start seeing connections that you wouldn't really see, right. So if I read Fanatical Prospecting, it's like that's a great book and you can learn from that and there's various books that I'd put in that category. But the value isn't in reading Fanatical Prospecting. The value is in okay, I've now read 50 sales books and I can see the connections of each and I've now built out my own script. Or I objection handle a hundred times better because I've got 10 books. I then read the leadership book and I realize how sales and I get that correlation between sales and leadership. Um, or I get the language of leaders. You know whatever that might be, but you only pick that up, you know, by by being, you know, by by putting in the reps. Um, and so many people don't want to put in the reps, so, and and and.

Matt: 52:02

Sacrifices I don't believe it's a sacrifice either. But that comes down to how you define sacrifice, because a lot of people would look at my life and be like you sacrificed so much time with your kids early days. I'm like, well, I don't feel that way. Right, because we made the commitment, we knew what the sacrifice is. There's no right or wrong. It doesn't mean I'm right because I've chased success in this domain and someone else has chased success at home and there was a individual who used to work with me and he was like Matt, I'm all about family, that's what I want to do.

Matt: 52:28

He was doing six 650K, earning good money. So he was earning kind of low twos and he's like Matt, I don't want to take that next step. I want to be there for my daughter and my son and I want to pick them up, drop them off, et cetera, et cetera. I'm like cool, but that's going to cap you Because, from a time point of view, you're cutting back your time. You're very talented but just not having the time isn't going to help and your intensity is already really high. So if you look at those three levers, you've just got to understand that the sacrifice you're making to do those family things is a number and that's not right or wrong and you can change that at any stage. But you've just got to be aware Most people aren't aware of okay, this choice has this consequence because they don't think to that layer of depth and that's why you hire a coach or you work with a really great mentor, because they can point out those things. Okay, that choice has this consequence.

Blake: 53:17

What are the biggest takeaways that you get from coaching people? Because I'm going to relate this almost back to ex-recruiter and the gym and the analogy I like to. The analogy that I like to put out is sometimes we speak to recruiters and they go look, I want to start my own recruitment agency. Some people want to go do it by themselves, some people want to do it with ex-recruiter. And the analogy I like to put out is look, anyone can go to the gym and say I go to the gym.

Blake: 53:49

But if you're a first time business owner and you're going out on your own, like going to the gym for the first time, like you could walk through the door and you know, muck around with a few machines, see what they do not, do the right form and eventually understand the mechanics of the gym layout, what machines you should be doing, all that kind of stuff.

Blake: 54:06

But if you go, turn up to the gym on day one with a strength and conditioning coach that tells you exactly what machines you should be on, so you don't waste any of your time, you do the right forms from day one. Like the. The difference between someone with a coach, for example, like yourself, if they were to join x recruiter and having a crack by themselves. For me I know it's like night and day difference because I value the mentorship, the coaching, the communication, the collaboration. That's obviously what we live and breathe at x recruiter. But for someone that you know you've X Recruiter, what do you see that people get out of? Having that coach, that accountability, that person that is like on their shoulder, talking to them about things that maybe they don't see?

Matt: 54:52

Yeah, so I think you've touched on a few parts there, but I think you don't know what you don't know, right. So, so, as you join X and and you're starting out as a business owner, most people haven't been business owners, they've just been recruiters, right and, and there'll be recruiters somewhere in that good to great or or or beyond, um, but it's that person who can go okay, you've now started your own business. This is what. This is what a sales strategy looks like. This is how you do a P&L. This is how you activate that muscle. So, if I'm thinking at the gym, this is how you activate the muscle and get the most out of it. Here's how we accelerate your growth or your gains.

Matt: 55:25

They're the things you get by having a coach. Or, if I relate it to boxing, because I like boxing, right, you need that external person because when you're in the thick of it and I think this is a better analogy than the gym when you're in the thick of it and you're in the fight and that's what starting a business is right, you're in the fight. It's like single swim, right, you're now a business owner. You've not got a salary, it's all on your back.

Matt: 55:44

When you're in a fight you can't see those finer points. That's what a coach brings, right? So if I look at me sparring and boxing and he's like Matt, your opponent's doing ABC. You need to duck, weave and throw this shot and you're going to win the fight. That's what a coach brings. And I think that's the value of a coach, whether it's in ex-recruiter or externally is they see the things you don't see because you're in the fight. So when you're in your fight, you're blinkered. You don't see the peripheral. They give you the peripheral um. They give you that vision you don't have and they show you the way to win um all right, I'm going to use that.

Matt: 56:23

Show you the way to win is really important. Yeah, um yeah, because they've been there, they've done that and they're objective, all right, so so they're looking at things from a different angle, um, and I think that's where the value is. And then, yeah, I think fighting is a perfect example of that, and you'd see that in any of the sports you watch. A great coach is the difference maker. I don't think Jordan would have been who he was without Phil Jackson. That great coach makes all the difference.

Declan: 56:52

Many people. Yeah, they look like the star of the show, but there's a team of people around them.

Matt: 56:57

Yeah, and if I look at my career, touching on those mentors, if I didn't have them I would not be the person I am and I'd like to think I've achieved a high level of success. But if you take out those people, I think I'm 50% of where I am at best and that's with all the habits, all the routines, all the drive in the world. But you need those people who are pushing for you the right way. You need those people in your inner circle that you trust, and one of them can be your partner.

Matt: 57:24

There's a risk there and we probably don't have time to talk about that today about how people really, really close to you and your family can actually be bad, because they usually say don't do that and they're risk adverse. But I don't have that, which is good. But you want to have that circle of people who'd be like Matt, you know you're turning into this or, hey, be aware of this pitfall, be aware of this challenge, because you don't see it. I don't see it. In my life now There'll be certain things where I just get so like I'm chasing that outcome, whereas I need, you know, every now and then, that person to pull me out and be like hey, have you thought about this? You need those people in your life.

Declan: 57:56

Oh, mate, I think it's the most undervalued thing being able to pick up the phone and just get the answer.

Matt: 58:01

Yeah, or work through the answer right, because I don't think a good coach gives you the answer. I think they help you work through that answer. So if I look at the people I coach, it's not like, hey, matt, I need ABC, unless it is a more junior person who's just like, yeah, okay, it's something pretty simple. But it's more about how do you think about that and how do I give you the skills to then think the right way in the future so that maybe you don't need to make that call right. So I think that's the difference between a good and a great coach.

Matt: 58:28

A good coach will be like yeah, you need to. You know when this happens, you need to do ABC. A great coach will be like when that happens, this is how you should think right, and here's a decision-making framework and here's how you should consider how you tackle that problem to then be able to do that yourself and teach other people to do that yourself. So you shouldn't really be ringing your coach for the same problem over and over again, because you should be learning and growing and changing your mindset and how you approach things. I think that's what a great coach gives.

Blake: 58:54

Yeah, I love that. I want to also put some light on your time at OREC and then also what your goals are with X Recruiter and the important piece of the puzzle that you play here with us. So firstly, probably your most notable experiences at OREC. That's where you spent the longest amount of time. You had the most amount of success. So walk us through OREC how you started, how it ended and like what the learnings were there.

Matt: 59:26

Yeah, so. So OREC was yeah, and I love the OREC guys and shout out to all the guys and girls there. So I started in OREC in 2010, 2011,. Met Saul was their GM of Melbourne. So so big driver of me at the time which is going to sound a bit ego, but I wanted to be a GM before I was 30, I was 28 and I had a goal to be a CEO before 35.

Matt: 59:46

I learned that that was more ego and a title than probably mattered over the journey. So I started there, literally a team of three in Melbourne who had no idea what they were doing at the time None of them had done recruitment and kind of went on the journey. I think the business and someone can correct me on this, if they like but I had the business and someone can correct me on this, if they like but I had maybe 100, 150 contractors when I started in Melbourne, sydney, canberra, singapore. We exited out of Asia, kind of, during that journey because it was just too up and down and couldn't get that contractor base where it needed to be. When I exited, they were pushing towards 600.

Matt: 1:00:13

So it was a huge kind of growth journey over that 10 years across those portfolios. I was a billing leader in Melbourne, then moved more into a traditional GM role as the team grew. But I've always billed, I like to bill, I like to be on the tools you need to learn, set that example, set that tone. So I always did a mill while I was leading that team and then over time took over Melbourne and Sydney as we were looking to exit to Randstad and then, as we exited to Randstad, I moved into the MD CEO position for that two year earner as Saul exited the business.

Blake: 1:00:46

What was that like going into the MD, top dog role, going through like a buyout Was that crazy, Was that easy? Was that a challenging moment in your career.

Matt: 1:00:56

I'm going to say it was a natural progression. I think once I was doing Melbourne and Sydney and we ended up hiring a phenomenal MD for Sydney. But I think as we went through that transition it was easy. I still had Saul as an advisor and he's been an amazing advisor and friend to me even post-OREC to this day. But I think having him as an advisor behind the scenes was really really helpful and having an amazing team.

Matt: 1:01:28

So Ryan was the GM in Canberra, phenomenal leader, phenomenal, just phenomenal human being. So having him, you know, kind of by my side and he'd been with that journey. You know I was 10 or 11 years when I exited. He was maybe two years behind. We had such an amazing leadership group that it was actually easy and such a high performing team that it's like you knew the levers. We had such an amazing leadership group that it was actually easy and such a high-performing team that it's like you knew the levers. We had six-month off sites where we'd push the team the right way, fix the mindset or challenge mindsets, drive them the right way, and there were so many high performers there that it was actually easy.

Blake: 1:01:54

Yeah right, interesting. So was there any kind of of political corporate you know things happening with a buyout Like sometimes when I hear of like buyouts, earnouts and acquisitions and all this kind of stuff, it can get like messy and nasty. That wasn't the case.

Matt: 1:02:13

No. So if I look at and kudos to Randstad here. Right, and they're probably not expecting me to say this, but I think they handled the transaction really well. They retained the brand. So they retained the Aurek brand and the Chalfont Consulting brand, which was a consulting arm that we built kind of among that journey. They retained that brand and I think that helped retain the people and they weren't getting involved in the day-to-day so we weren't co-located separate offices, separate leadership, very different mindsets and I was involved to a degree in the tech strategy for Randstad.

Matt: 1:02:44

I was invited to be part of that kind of conversation and invited them into our tent as well and it was very clear that we think differently and there was certainly a different level of performance If you go GP per head and I won't share numbers but the OREC one was certainly higher and I think a lot of that was just down to thinking. That doesn't mean the Randstad model's wrong. When you're a billion-dollar business you have to think a certain way and you have to. There's certain things you do because you're that size. But I think Auric kept that kind of entrepreneurial DNA and that's what stood them apart.

Declan: 1:03:15

Where's Auric now Auric, Orick now Orick. Is it still going?

Matt: 1:03:17

Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, so they're still ticking along. Yeah, so Stephen runs Sydney, ryan's still in Canberra, so they're two key leaders. Melbourne's just had some challenges since I've departed, not because of me, but I just don't think they've found the right leader to scale that business. They've still got some really good consultants, but I'm a big believer everything rises and falls on leadership. So I think when there's that leadership vacuum in any business, there's a challenge, because if your leaders are, you know, a six out of 10, your business is a five. If your leaders are nine out of 10, your business is that You're not going to outgrow your leader. And I think if you don't have a leader, then you know again, you're just throwing it up for chance.

Blake: 1:03:53

Yeah, why did they acquire Oreck and not change the brand Like what's the what's the benefit to that?

Matt: 1:03:59

Yeah, so so I think the reason for the acquisition was performance, uh, performance and very little overlay of clients. Um. So when we kind of looked nationally, I think for a lot of the geographies there was less than 10% kind of shared client base. So it was really opened up a new portfolio for them as a group, um, but it simply came down to performance and I think the brand was so strong that they didn't want to lose that brand recognition in the geographies that they played in.

Blake: 1:04:24

Okay, awesome, and so that was a super successful. You exited OREC, you went to TP, had a good stint at TP and now you're a part of the X Recruiter.

Matt: 1:04:36

I know, so excited to be here. The rocket ship yeah, I love it.

Blake: 1:04:38

Yeah, and so what is and I know this is early days, so we're talking off the cuff here but what are the main goals or the exciting journey that you're about to embark on? What are you focused on at XRecruiter?

Matt: 1:04:53

Yeah, so, I think the thing that drew me to XRecruiter outside of you boys, of course, which is a big part of that is just the growth journey, right. So obviously my role is around growth, so growth of our number of partners that make that leap from great recruiter to business owner to phenomenal business owner, growth of their businesses and growth of them holistically. And I look and go. That's what's made me a great leader. So if I look at what I think is my secret sauce between my leadership and my coaching is taking people on that journey. But now we're taking them on a journey where the benefit for them is 10X right. So you take a recruiter in agency land from, say, 500 to 700, right, 200 grand upswing, they're probably taken maybe 50 grand of that right, 20%, 30%, maybe a little bit more if they go north of a mill. But if you take someone as a business owner from 500 to 700, well, they're taking 90, right, 85, 90%. So that's life-changing right.

Matt: 1:05:51

And I've said this to people in recruitment for a long time Recruitment at 100 grand sucks. It's a tough, tough, freaking slog right. Recruitment at 200, like, okay, cool, like I've, I've got a nice lifestyle, nice house, I'm probably starting to get some freedom. Recruitment at 300 plus 400 plus is amazing. But to get that in agency land, like you've got to be doing one, three, one, four, one, five. But if you're doing it as a business owner and you only have to do 500, like that's good, that's not even great. So if I can take you from good to great, 500 to a mil and you're a business owner, like that's a game changer. And for me, like I've spoken a little bit about legacy and wanting to see people be the best version of themselves, well, what an amazing way to unlock them and unlock that potential.

Matt: 1:06:37

And then, if you're looking at all training, development, coaching, it's like well, yeah, as a recruiter, maybe earning 150 grand, you're like, oh, I'm a little bit uncomfortable to spend 10 grand. If I'm a business owner doing half a mil, what's 10 grand? If it's going to get me half a mil, like another half a mil right. So I think what excites me about ex-recruiter is I get to use my skillset, but 10 X the outcome, and 10 X the outcome for people Right, cause I I'm a huge believer If you improve a personalistically, you improve them as a recruiter, you improve the result. Um, and that's what drives me. So it's here Like we've got this beautiful ecosystem of other you know other leaders, other owners that all want to help each other, to be just fricking amazing at what they do. And it's like I what they do, and it's like I just get to sit in the middle of that and just play growth mode, play coach, play mentor, but see the outcome 10X, and that's what fires me up, right.

Declan: 1:07:25

Oh, mate Is to see people kill it.

Matt: 1:07:26

you know, buy the new house, buy, you know, whatever success is for you, because it's not just financial, but or it might be giving them their freedom, because I can now earn twice what I've ever earned, but I've got that time with the kids. So if you look at that kind of trade-off and what does success look like? We've got more levers If people join XRecruiter. They've got so much more levers because they're in control of their freedom, whereas when you work for someone else and I've done it, and I've done it really successfully and I would not change any of my time over that journey but you don't have that freedom. You are locked into. These are your hours, this is how many holidays you're going to take a year. You know, this is what we expect, this is when you're on, this is when you're off, whereas as a business owner, you're in control of that man, I get jealous hearing that.

Blake: 1:08:06

And I get jealous because if I started vendito, you know, seven years ago or six years ago, whatever it was, and I got to be thrown into this community of other recruitment agency owners supporting me, then I had maddie, like real, juicing me up getting me from 500K to 100 bucks, could you imagine, do you know how much like more fun and exciting the journey would have been if I had the support around me?

Blake: 1:08:30

And so like? The reason why we do this obviously is because Declan and I were once those recruiters with no support having no idea what we're doing, just trying to figuring it all out as we go.

Blake: 1:08:41

But now you don't really have to. And to get the support, the coaching, the mentoring, the resources, it's almost like it's the biggest no-brainer. I say that because I've walked the shoes of what the other alternative is. But maybe for someone who hasn't taken a leap and started their own agency, they still might be sitting there thinking, oh okay, okay, do I do it by myself, do I do it with x recruiter? And there's considerations there.

Blake: 1:09:05

But for someone that's walked both paths and seeing people go with x recruiter and make a million bucks in their first year and then not go with x recruiter and then really feel like they're struggling and with no support and, no, no clarity on what decision to make next, I just get so excited about such a high-level impact. As you say, you know, 10xing people's outcomes is really fun and exciting and seeing the light bulb go off and them getting really excited about holy shit, I can do this it's just a super rewarding feeling, yeah, and those supporting tools are super important because a lot of people say to me hey, matt, you've done a million dollars a year for your entire career.

Matt: 1:09:40

Why, why not go out on your own right now? The, the auric journey was very clear, right Cause it was we were chasing, chasing an exit, I had equity in that business and and and it made sense. But even then, you know, saul, kind of post post, when you can just do it on your own, you're a performer. But I think even when you're great, you still have those voices in your head Well, how am I going to do ABC? Who is going to support me? You know what is that? What is that network of people? Because you don't have that right.

Matt: 1:10:08

Whereas if X Recruiter was around 10 years ago, maybe I'm doing something different. But for me it hasn't just been about starting my own business, it's about coaching other people to be successful. That's what actually excites me and makes me happy. But it's just a vehicle that hasn't been available. So kind of kudos to you boys for doing that. And I think for people like me or somewhere in my 15-year journey, it's like it's an absolute. I agree with you, it's an absolute no-brainer. Maybe I'm a little biased, just a little bit.

Declan: 1:10:37

Maybe I'm a little biased, just a little bit. I think the people that don't do it, they're scared of the accountability, of having to make shit happen, yep. But the ones that do it, to have multiple seven figure business owners in X Recruiter in their first year of business and X Recruiter's only 18 months old, yeah, like we're fucking working it out too. So and that's already what's happening, that is exponential. Like you know, I was chatting to Jory the other day. He's like yeah, mate, I spoke to my mate, he's a mechanic and I told him what we're doing and he's like what the actual fuck is going on there Like this is not real life Like and multiple partners are in that situation.

Declan: 1:11:13

Like 150K months, 70k months, pbs growing, pb's growing 35 a month like this is extraordinary yeah yeah, we're finding.

Blake: 1:11:22

uh, I did some stats just the other day and most of the partners that join x recruiter end up billing more out on their own by themselves in their first couple of months than they do at their previous agency, with all the support and training and database and all that kind of stuff that they get. And I did put a post about it, like we've kind of got an unfair advantage at X Recruiter because the people that join are ambitious recruiters, they're experienced recruiters, they're the top one or two.

Matt: 1:11:52

Yeah, they're always in that gray or pushing towards that gray. Yeah.

Blake: 1:11:57

And most people think of starting your own business. Hopefully I'll break even my first year, or I'll be on baked beans and spaghetti for the first 12 months and then, as soon as they get like pushed into this, like this network of other high performing agency owners, all of a sudden they go oh shit, you know, I went three weeks without a salary and now I'm making 50 grand a month. This is like completely life changing, and so a lot of people don't probably realize that. You know, success is one decision away in a couple of weeks and it's. It's not this super long grind to try and get back to where you were in in agency land, which, you know, we speak to a lot of million dollar billers and they go oh shit, I don't know if I could start.

Declan: 1:12:42

They're the most scared. A lot of them are the most scared, most highly leveraged yeah, possibly.

Matt: 1:12:46

Yeah, oh, they're comfortable Again. You've got to that big fish and you might be a big fish in a big pond at that level, but you know, there's still that, like I'm comfortable here, right, do I want to jump into a new pond and is there food in the new pond? And I'm not quite sure. So I think there is a mindset thing there. I've been there, right, so I get that mindset. But it's like you've now got the tools, the ecosystem, the people, the coaching, everything you need to kind of make that work. So the risk, the level of risk, is substantially lower. So it's like why not?

Declan: 1:13:17

and what you teach, matt, I haven't heard anyone speak the way you do. Yeah, like on what you talk about, honestly, like I haven't found it in another book, I haven't found it. Like on any academy I haven't found it, you know, chatting to to any other recruitment leaders or business owners, because if, if they knew about it, that'd be fucking doing and teaching all their staff it. Yeah. So like I'm sitting there in a recruitment excellence class and I'm like, holy shit, I couldn't even write that out on a board.

Blake: 1:13:44

Yeah, yeah, I feel like we're learning to be better recruiters and we're not actually recruiting anymore, and I feel like I've got the itch to be a recruiter.

Matt: 1:13:51

I'm like fuck.

Blake: 1:13:51

I'd love to be a recruiter again with the amount of shit that I know. I've built a million bucks before, yeah, so I think it's going to be.

Declan: 1:13:57

the next 12 months are going to be absolutely insane, If we're like talking about multiple seven figure business owners records being broken month on month, like the next 12 months are going to be extraordinary and you're going to play a huge part in that. So, when do we start chatting about like what, what little other things you're going to be doing in extra career to like?

Declan: 1:14:16

maybe we can slowly roll it out over the next three months. We don't want to. Maybe we can slowly roll it out over the next three months. We don't want to give it all away now. You've got a certain limit of imagination.

Blake: 1:14:24

Yeah, no, we're super excited about this journey. We think you joining XRecruiter is we're super grateful and we think it's going to definitely take us to the next level that we're excited about. So we're really pumped to be able to share the journey with all these other recruiters that are probably sitting there thinking, fuck, should I do it now? Should I do it? And then maybe seeing Matty come on board and going, hey, now you're also going to get a high-performance recruitment coach to level up your agency, then maybe that might just be the push that everyone needs Ice bath sessions, all the other fun stuff.

Matt: 1:14:56

All the holistic stuff we do.

Declan: 1:14:57

Recruitment's just a small part. I would imagine.

Matt: 1:15:00

But the thing I'd say is that, like people want to see you win right and I think this is the thing I've noticed, you know, the more I've hung around our partners is, when you take that leap out of agency land, your clients, your customers, if you are in that good to great, they want to see you win right, they want to help you win. So it's actually not as hard as you think, because it's not like, oh, do I need to go and get another piece of paper. It's like they want, they want to work with you. They work with you, you not with whatever the business card is. Not that we do business cards anymore, but you know they work with you as a person and they want you to win and once it's yours, it's like that's, that's pretty cool well, look at the office down the road, mate.

Declan: 1:15:33

There's 12 recruiters. They don't give a shit about any other, they're all in their own agencies. It has no reflection on whether the bloke next to them does well.

Blake: 1:15:41

Yeah, but they all want them to do well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Declan: 1:15:44

So, it's awesome. And then, once this goes live, the Melbourne office ex-recruiter Melbourne office will be open as well.

Blake: 1:15:50

Really.

Declan: 1:15:51

Exciting times yeah.

Matt: 1:15:52

Come on, let's do it. Yeah, awesome.

Blake: 1:16:01

Thanks for joining in to another Confessions of a Recruiter podcast with Blake and Declan. We hope you enjoyed and got a lot of value and insights out of this episode. If you do have any questions or you would like to recommend someone to come on the Confessions podcast, we would love any introductions and remember the rule of the podcast like share, share and recommend it to a friend. Until next time.