When Gretta and Zak swapped the courtroom for the boardroom, they took the legal recruitment world by storm. Our latest episode features this powerhouse couple at the helm of Harper Lloyd Recruitment, divulging their story of transformation from law practitioners to trailblazers in Brisbane's recruitment scene. Together, they offer a unique perspective on starting a business, balancing personal and professional lives, and leveraging their legal acumen to scout top talent.
Peek behind the curtain with us as Greta and Zak share the strategies that underpin their agency's success. They reveal how they've managed to turn industry challenges into golden opportunities for placing the right candidates in the right roles, rapidly earning a reputation for excellence. Their candid conversation covers the significance of client relationships and how personal connections can outshine brand loyalty, providing crucial insights for any aspiring entrepreneur.
Our episode rounds off with practical takeaways on navigating the risks and rewards of business ownership. The couple discusses the impact of external business coaching on their growth, the power of working among high performers, and the ethical responsibilities of job placement. They also offer inspiration for creating opportunities in recruitment that can change lives, stressing the importance of aligning candidates with roles that can ignite their passions and drive their success. Join us and uncover the blueprint for translating personal ambition into professional triumph.
· Our Website is: xrecruiter.io
When Gretta and Zak swapped the courtroom for the boardroom, they took the legal recruitment world by storm. Our latest episode features this powerhouse couple at the helm of Harper Lloyd Recruitment, divulging their story of transformation from law practitioners to trailblazers in Brisbane's recruitment scene. Together, they offer a unique perspective on starting a business, balancing personal and professional lives, and leveraging their legal acumen to scout top talent.
Peek behind the curtain with us as Greta and Zak share the strategies that underpin their agency's success. They reveal how they've managed to turn industry challenges into golden opportunities for placing the right candidates in the right roles, rapidly earning a reputation for excellence. Their candid conversation covers the significance of client relationships and how personal connections can outshine brand loyalty, providing crucial insights for any aspiring entrepreneur.
Our episode rounds off with practical takeaways on navigating the risks and rewards of business ownership. The couple discusses the impact of external business coaching on their growth, the power of working among high performers, and the ethical responsibilities of job placement. They also offer inspiration for creating opportunities in recruitment that can change lives, stressing the importance of aligning candidates with roles that can ignite their passions and drive their success. Join us and uncover the blueprint for translating personal ambition into professional triumph.
· Our Website is: xrecruiter.io
Hi, I'm Greta and I'm Zach, and we're the directors of Harper Lloyd Recruitment and today we are featured on Confessions of a Recruiter and we'll be talking about everything from how we got into business, our relationship and how we've kind of grown over the last four months as a legal specialist agency here in Brisbane.
Speaker 1:So we hope you like it.
Speaker 3:All right, welcome back to another episode of Confessions of a Recruiter Today. This is one close to home, but Zach and Greta, thanks for coming on, both the directors of Harper Lloyd, so welcome.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1:Super exciting to be here.
Speaker 4:This is going to be an awesome episode for a few reasons. One you've just started your own recruitment agency, which is the journey of a lifetime, so it'd be awesome to unpack and go through your journey of what you were thinking before you started to then, when you started and how you're going. What five months.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just about to hit four About to hit four months, wow.
Speaker 4:So you're still fresh and you're absolutely killing it. So I'm keen to unpack that. But before we get started and go through your journey of starting your recruitment agency, how did you both get into recruitment? Are you both veteran recruiters? Tell us a little bit about your background. Zach, you go first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So I kind of fell into it. I started off as a lawyer, so I was working in commercial litigation for a large firm and through law they have what's called a clerkship program where basically interns come in for four weeks to kind of learn the ropes of being a lawyer and that's kind of your set pathway and that's what I thought I was on. And I saw the person doing the graduate recruitment job while I was studying to be a lawyer and I thought I want that job.
Speaker 3:Really what?
Speaker 2:was it about it that you liked? It was the people I think I kind of knew early on. I liked the engagement with students and going to careers fairs and things like that. So I thought, oh, that's the job I want. So I was going into law to be a lawyer, work long hours, and I kind of already had in my head that I wanted to do that. So I was a lawyer for a couple of years and then a recruitment job popped up and I thought, oh, I'll give that a crack and see what it's all about. And that's how I really just fell into it. I did that thing that people don't do anymore, which is apply to a seek ad. So I did that and that's how I got into it.
Speaker 4:Amazing, that's like the story of everyone. I just applied for a seek ad and thought, oh, we'll give this a crack. That was only four or five years ago now.
Speaker 2:So lots changed since then.
Speaker 4:A hundred percent. What about you, Greta?
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm very different. So I had an upbringing of admin I guess you could say I was a legal secretary and then I got 10 years into doing that and was like, oh, I don't want to support solicitors anymore, I don't want to be illegal, I want to try something a bit fun and different. So I went out and got a heap of office manager roles and just through being an office manager they had recruitment as a necessary duty that you had to complete. With that you did end recruitment but also, I guess, the grievance side of things, and I quickly learnt that I didn't like the grievance side of things. And I quickly learnt that I didn't like the grievance side. I liked the initial onboarding and making the right choices and having the right fit for the company and just deciding who you got to work with on a day-to-day basis. So I did a full HR manager role for about a year on a contract and it was at the end of that I was like, oh no, I'll stick to the recruitment and get rid of the rest.
Speaker 1:And, funnily enough, zach and I met because I ended up taking his job at the last agency that we worked at when he left the first time. So my girlfriend was one of Zach's clients when he was in agency and they went to a coffee catch up and Zach was like, oh, this is. And they went to a coffee catch-up and Zach was like, oh, this is going to be my last coffee catch-up with you, I'm going to leave. Do you know anyone who might actually be interested in the role? And she's like, oh, I might actually have someone.
Speaker 1:So I remember getting a phone call that night from her saying oh, I met with an agency today. They have a job coming up. I know your contract's about to end. Would you be interested in just seeing what it's about? And I was like, sure, why not? I was exploring a lot of different opportunities at the time and I didn't really know what direction to go in. Had a phone call with Zach, funnily enough, met the GM and then fell into that agency spot and that's kind of how it all happened.
Speaker 4:That's very interesting, because that was going to be my next question how did you two meet? Was this like okay? So you took over Zach's role and Zach you left to go what? To a different agency.
Speaker 2:So I went internal. So I went into a law firm to do that graduate recruitment role that I wanted all those years back. So I went in to do that and and yeah, Greta went in to take the position. And then I was working internal for a little while and thought, oh, you know what? I want to go back to agency. So how it all came about was quite funny. I'd gone back to office drinks at this agency and saw Greta there and I thought, wow, she's really attractive, I like her. And she was talking about how she was bringing some guy she was dating to meet all her friends and family. And so my dreams were crushed and that kind of disappeared, so I was like it's okay, it's fine, it's fine.
Speaker 2:And then I was chatting to my former boss and they were like oh, we want someone to help grow Sydney. So I thought, okay, I'll go in and grow Sydney. And it was when I was going back to help grow Sydney, so I thought, okay, I'll go in and grow Sydney. And it was when I was going back to this agency that the firm I was working for at the time said oh, you'll get to work with Greta, I really like. Someone at the firm said oh, I really like Greta, you'll get to work with her. And I sent her a message being like oh, this's some great feedback and that's how we started, kind of that's how we connected.
Speaker 4:I had no idea. So, greta, you were flirting with your clients. Is that what was happening here?
Speaker 1:No, no, zach was flirting with his client, yeah.
Speaker 4:Zach was your client right.
Speaker 2:No, no, so we weren't clients in this situation. I was heading back to the agency and one of my friends who worked at the firm with me said Greta works with us, she'll be really great. Here's some feedback, and so I just passed on that feedback.
Speaker 3:Any reason to call hey, yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1:And what's really funny and my old agency don't know this, but when Zach went back, I then went for an interview for his job- really so when I was tossing up what to do, I was in a different state of mind.
Speaker 1:I guess you could say halfway through last year I was getting approached by a lot of firms to go internal to do talent acquisition in the support side, and a couple of agencies as well were heading, wanted me to head up their support divisions as well, and one of the jobs was actually to go back to that client and head up graduate recruitment. So I would have done it again.
Speaker 4:So you were like swapping roles. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And just had no idea that that was all happening.
Speaker 4:And then. So you both ended up staying. Well, you ended up staying Greta, and then Zach, you worked alongside Greta. How did that?
Speaker 2:like you worked at the same agency, yeah yeah, so I was running a very similar desk to Greta when I went back to this agency, but for Sydney. So we had similar roles but we didn't have too much interaction. But I would still work from the Brisbane office and things like that. So we were doing very similar roles at the time. Really Nice.
Speaker 4:Should we keep diving into this office romance or should we move on?
Speaker 1:There's not really much else, I don't think.
Speaker 2:Not really much else. Well, it made it very easy for us to learn whether we could work together or not. Obviously, we started seeing each other when we were at work, and so it kind of helped us answer the question of whether we could run a business together, because it's a lot of face time. Obviously you live together, you're working together, so that was a good way to kind of see it in a workplace before we ventured out on our own to kind of see it in a workplace before we ventured out on our own.
Speaker 4:Sorry, was there any like unforeseen challenges that you didn't expect? Working together, seeing each other? Because a lot of relationships do come from the workplace, and so I've never seen it directly myself. But I can only imagine that you know, if you start seeing a colleague, for example, and then, I don't know, they steal your candidate, um, it's, you know you're going to you're going to be in a bit of trouble, is that? Was there anything that you thought, oh, maybe this was a bad idea? Or was it just like, nah, this is the best thing ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it kind of it worked out pretty easy when, when we were both working together originally because we had very separate desks so there was no case of, oh this is my candidate or this is my client, that kind of thing we could kind of complement each other and then going into the business, I think the biggest thing that we've probably learned with the business is that there's a lot of face time together. So you're in the office together, you're at home together, so it's kind of important to take time for yourself as well. But there's been a lot of benefits we didn't expect. When we're at home, it could be that one of us is having a difficulty with a placement that we're doing or something like that, but there's someone you can just talk to for advice who's right there, which is really good because you both bring a different perspective. And I run a legal professional desk and Greta runs a legal support desk, so we can both bring different things to the table and kind of complement each other.
Speaker 3:Do you go to bed just discussing your pipeline every night?
Speaker 1:No, definitely not. We've started implementing different work from home days. So there are, I guess, those days apart where you can just do whatever you usually do in your normal routine, where you can just do whatever you usually do in your normal routine and just making sure we've got that time for ourselves so we're not totally entwined 24 hours a day.
Speaker 4:That's awesome. So what? One of you works from home on a Wednesday, the other works from home on a Thursday, and at least you get a day to yourself.
Speaker 2:That's exactly it, wednesday and Thursday actually. Oh nice.
Speaker 1:Normally, yeah, and I like it. I mean, I'm a very independent person. I always have been, so it's interesting you have different dynamics. Even in our office that we're in currently, there's a heap of different agencies. You develop different relationships over time. So when you're there by yourself, you obviously develop it differently to when you're there together, and that's what I like as well.
Speaker 4:Yeah, for sure. So when you were working together at your last agency, what inspired you both to want to start your own agency? What inspired you to go out on your own? Did something happen?
Speaker 1:That was me. Oh, that was you.
Speaker 4:That's me Okay.
Speaker 1:Everyone always thought it was Zach who thought up with this mindset. It was very much me.
Speaker 4:So Zach's getting the push from Greta like, hey, we need to do this for ourselves.
Speaker 1:Funnily enough, we were walking along the Manly foreshore with our puppy dogs one Sunday morning and this idea, I guess, came to me early in the morning of would you ever consider going out and starting your own business? Have you ever thought about it, considered it, know anything about it? And he's like. Funnily enough, I just had this conversation with a friend that actually used to work in the same agency, who had left to go internal. So Zach knew very much of XRecruiter and the background that you guys provide to recruiters wishing to go out on their own, whereas I just had the idea.
Speaker 1:Gotcha, for me personally, I am probably your typical every 18 months to two years I get an itch and I like to stop change. Sometimes it's just down to a different change of environment. So I've worked in legal, commercial, real estate, retail, fashion, disability services, not-for-profit. So I've done a variety of roles in a variety of backgrounds and environments and I was coming up to that stage where, at 18 to two years, I just consider if it's the right place for me. I look at the people around me, I look at the management and how they either inspire or not their staff members, and for me it was just a time where I was like I'm not getting what I would like from management or other colleagues in order to grow and thrive in the environment. So I was seeing what else was out there for me personally and that's how it kind of came about.
Speaker 1:I would never have considered running a business historically. I was always in the employee mindset and I can't tell you what it was that flipped. I don't know if it was. I've gotten to an age in my early 30s where I was like, oh, I've done a lot of um, executive or higher sort of senior roles and I feel like I'm at a confident stage in my life where I can go out and do this on my own. Or if it was just, I was sick of being told by a manager you need to be here at eight or five and if you leave at 4 57 and you get a slap on the wrist like yeah, I'm not sure what it was that physically changed that mindset, but once it was made and this is very much me as a person, any big life decisions that I have made historically you've got 24 hours and once I'm on that thought path, I am.
Speaker 4:Really Zach. How does that go mate?
Speaker 2:Well, decisions get made very quickly.
Speaker 3:You can tell mate. Look what's happened this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we were just saying earlier this morning, we're running out of big things to do. There's launching a business wedding. I guess the only thing is kids, but that one, that one will live for a while.
Speaker 1:The business is the baby. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So and then and then for me I'd thought about doing a business for a while. I used to live just down the road here and walk to New Farm Park and I'd spend probably the whole hour walk just thinking I really want to run a recruitment business and I would just think about all these things and how it would come together and all that. But then I just kind of, as you do, you think of these big things and then you trail off for a while and then it wasn't really yeah until we had that conversation. It kind of prompted it up again.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's awesome. And, funnily enough, Greta, the way that you feel after 18 months, two years, is how a lot of recruiters feel. After you know two years at an agency. They kind of hit this glass ceiling and they're like what else is doing? You know what else is out there. You can get a job at another recruitment agency, but really you're just swapping. You're just swapping out, yeah, Same for same, Exactly. Um, so, so, really interesting that that's a thought. And then so, um, you came together and you're like actually, this, this seems like it could be a good idea. Um, how long did it take for you to rationalize that? Yup, this is what I want to do. Was it Greta's 24 hour decision or was it, was it a little bit longer? Like, how did you have to get your house in order to go? I'm ready to do this now, Cause it's a big. It's a big change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was interesting. We had that conversation on Sunday and I think Wednesday morning. Greta was like okay, I've booked in to see the boys Thursday.
Speaker 4:I was like okay.
Speaker 2:I guess we're seeing the boys at X Recruiter on.
Speaker 2:Thursday oh, that's awesome. So it was quite quick there. And we kind of just figured things out after that point, like had the meeting with both of you, and then we're like, okay, how are we going to do this? We were in a fortunate enough position financially to have the funds there to start the business. So we didn't have that kind of concern and we kind of went in with the mindset of like we would rather do this now and say it's not what we expected or not what we wanted. We can always go back into the workforce and do something again, but neither of us wanted to get to 50 or 60 and go, oh, we should have started that business when we were, you know, late 20s, early 30s. I wonder what could have been. So it was, yeah, quite less than a week.
Speaker 4:So are you two? Just this popped into my head just now are you two? Would you say you're risk adverse? Not risk adverse Like what's kind of your personality styles, because you're both very professional, very stylish, speak extremely well present. Well, is there a bit of a risk adverse thing there, or are you guys like YOLO or what?
Speaker 2:For me it's a bit of a mix I kind of go between. Normally lawyers are quite risk adverse In this. We just, yeah, in the business we just thought, look, it is a risk going out and starting on your own. You don't have, say, the salary fallback and things like that. But we just thought, oh well, we just got to push past that, we'll go and have a crack at it. So sometimes I'm very risk adverse, particularly when you're a lawyer, when you're sending out emails, correspondence or drafting documents, attention to details so big. So you really get in this mindset of wanting to be risk adverse, like make sure everything's right and in business not everything can be right all the time. So you've just got to try different things. And what I always go back to is, if you don't fail, you're not trying enough, so you've got to fail to succeed. So I'm a lot more risky, I guess, in that sense that just try new things, because if you don't, then you won't know what works and what doesn't.
Speaker 3:Fucking love that and what's been the biggest impact since you started, like four months into business, is there anything that you guys have learnt? Because I think you can read heaps of books but you won't learn as much about yourself until you start a business. So has there been any things that have really hit home and gone? Oh shit, we didn't expect this, or hey, I actually thought it was going to be X, y, z and it's not Like the fear of salary, that type of stuff.
Speaker 1:For me, probably the biggest thing that I didn't expect was how much support you get when you have a really strong personal brand. So I personally have always taken a lot of pride in either how I conduct myself, whether professionally or even appearance, or just how I speak with people. And I would say from my vast employment background from all the different industries, I've met a lot of people over the years, from everyone from admin assistants through to CEOs and C-suites, and I didn't expect the level of support and just people coming out of the woodwork when we launched our business. That actually has come out from all varieties of backgrounds and it can be people like the principals of the first law firm I worked at at 18 sent me a really nice email when we first launched about how they've watched me on LinkedIn go through all my career choices and that they're really proud that I'm representing the industry now. That's awesome. So that was a big one for me and I thought that was a really big compliment. So I didn't expect that. I always thought it would be good, but maybe not great as a launch. So from that point of view, I guess we couldn't have asked for anything better In terms of like impact. It's been quite good.
Speaker 1:People keep saying the market's changing and we did get a lot of conversations about that last year from our agency manager about, oh, the market's changing, it'll be relationships that keep you going over the manager, about all the markets changing. It'll be relationships that keep you going over the next sort of couple of years, just with how it's predicted to be upcoming. And it's probably true. And in that regard, I guess you could look back in hindsight and say, well, I've obviously made a lot of great relationships. Because they're all coming out now, yeah, hindsight, and say, well, I've obviously made a lot of great relationships because they're all coming out now.
Speaker 3:I think the amount of time that people spend talking about the market instead of just being involved in the market and just doing the work. I think people count themselves short so many times, Like it is very much in your own head.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and I think a lot of that's to do with people being risk adverse as well, particularly like, oh, the market's. I think a lot of that's to do with people being risk adverse as well, particularly like, oh, the market's changing a bit. Are people going to use agency recruiters? And obviously you can see in a number of different industries, yeah, there's downturns, but there's also upticks. There's candidate shortages and I think a lot of people probably have that fear again of, oh, I don't want to say the wrong thing or I don't want to reach out to that client because all the market's changing and they may not use us.
Speaker 2:But I've always a big believer in if you don't ask, you don't get. If you're not going out there and doing the BD or building those relationships, then of course the market's going to seem like it's a downturn for you because you're not going out there and doing things. And I've seen it myself. We all have good days and bad days as a recruiter and generally what you can see is it comes down to that activity piece. If you're not out there building the relationships, then of course there aren't going to be the interviews and connecting with candidates and things like that. And just on Greta's point, there around kind of impact and support relationships have been such a key thing for us. For instance, greta getting on a retained client this year was someone that Greta had worked alongside over 10 years ago, I think, and had said, oh, I remember you, I really liked working with you. We're looking for some staff. Can you help us out?
Speaker 4:Wow, that's how you got that massive retainer.
Speaker 1:So she was a solicitor that I worked for and I was a secretary that then became, I guess, a business service type manager. And yeah, it was just from that relationship.
Speaker 4:Wow, good job.
Speaker 2:That's so good, yeah, so that was a super, super proud moment for us and for Greta that something that was a relationship that started so long ago has come out. And I think that's sometimes what you see in recruitment is that people are really focused on the short term and quick wins. And, of course, quick wins are really important because that's what you need to keep the motivation going. But if you want to be in the industry long term, then those relationships are so key because it may be that you don't do too much work with that particular person, but if they like you, they'll work with you, and that was a key point here in all the time in recruitment. I don't think Greta had worked with them before in a recruitment capacity, but they liked her, so they came back to her and said oh, we want you and we want to retain you for it.
Speaker 3:And now you're in a position where you can create the most leverage for those relationships. So imagine what another 10 years would be like we're barely, even at 10 months, but just to get through your first year of business. It's huge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's really exciting for us to see kind of where we'll head.
Speaker 3:And you guys are the first legal recruiters we've ever had on the podcast. It's obviously a huge niche but I don't know many legal recruiters know a few. So, zach, you were saying in your market there's a lot of reverse marketing building relationships, candidate short markets but Greta, with you it's more like business support, legal secretaries, legal support.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and back of house. So anything from finance managers, general managers, anything that it takes to run a law firm as well.
Speaker 1:Oh, so that's why it's so complimentary, yeah, so it's like a full suite offering that we can give between the two of us and our backgrounds. And that's probably our unique point of difference is we physically have done each of the roles that we're recruiting for. So I've done anything from business services reception secretary. I've run a law firm as a practice manager as well, and then Zach's been a solicitor and a grad recruiter, so we've literally covered everything.
Speaker 3:And are your clients rolling around like the show Suits and they're just super cutthroat.
Speaker 1:Or is it?
Speaker 3:you guys have never recruited in any other industries, but do you feel like you could only? I feel like you could only recruit in legal if you're a lawyer.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I feel like if I rolled up to a law firm and was like how you going, guys, I'll recruit some roles for you, they'd be like who is this nothing, whereas I feel like you both really adopt the persona of what a law firm would want to engage with. Probably.
Speaker 2:I wish it was a little more like Suits. I'd like to go down to a car dealership and spend $2 million and then drive to my hinterland home. But yeah, it certainly helps, having been in the industry ourselves. A lot of terms or legal terms or legal jargon candidates that I've spoken to have said oh, I only decided to meet with you because I knew you'd been a lawyer before, so that you actually get it.
Speaker 2:I wasn't someone who was calling, being like oh, I've got this great job. You'll be doing commercial litigation or corporate M&A and then not really knowing what the corporate M&A would involve. So it's been really good to actually connect with people and know what they're doing on a day-to-day. And it also helps on the client side too, because I can actually say well, I briefed this candidate and I went through their work, history and the kind of matters they've been working on so I can draw out kind of things that other recruiters wouldn't necessarily draw out, because they may not know the legal jargon or what's actually involved in going to court or getting the deal done.
Speaker 4:How many legal recruiters are in Brisbane?
Speaker 2:There aren't too many in Brisbane. I think there's probably more legal professional recruiters than legal support recruiters in Brisbane.
Speaker 4:What's the difference, sorry?
Speaker 2:So legal professional, essentially any off-fee earners, so any lawyers so pretty much anything from graduate to partner level on the lawyer side, and then legal support's pretty much anything within a firm that's not a lawyer.
Speaker 4:So your HR recruitment, finance, legal security, people do the documents and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's more probably sitting in Sydney and Melbourne. I sometimes say that Queensland's kind of the forgotten state when it comes to recruitment, it seems, and not just in legal, just in general. There are a lot more recruiters operating down south, so there aren't too many up here, and not just in legal, just in general. There are a lot more recruiters operating down south, so there aren't too many up here, and not really with the kind of the complimentary experience that I guess we bring, being able to offer that full service to clients.
Speaker 4:So it's interesting because, Greta, you mentioned that one thing that was a bit of a shock to you is when you launched your agency, you had a lot of people come out of the woodwork and want to support you and most recruiters that I speak to. One of their concerns before starting their own agency is is anyone going to work with me? Because I'm like brand new and I have no credibility or I've got no wins on the board in my new agency, this kind of stuff. So just to clarify your point there, do you find it's almost the opposite, where people are like oh wow, they've started business, let's give them our work because we want to support them?
Speaker 1:Yep, some of the clients have definitely. They even said that in our first client meetings. They're like we're here today to give you a chance. We haven't historically worked with your previous agency for whatever reason it might have been, but you guys are doing it, so let's give it a go.
Speaker 4:That's so good, hey. Does that give you like the warm and fuzzies where, like, people will just work with you to give you a crack and help you along your journey?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does, and a lot of the time they came out and they just said we want to change. Historically, the agencies that have been particularly in my market have been there for a long time and they actually haven't had anyone new or different to go to. They've always had the stock standard same one or two recruitment agencies. So now it's just adding more people into, I guess, a monopoly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think a really good point that one of Greta's clients made is that she said I follow people, not agencies. So really for her it was about the personal relationship.
Speaker 3:That should be on a billboard. Follow people not agencies yeah.
Speaker 2:Yep, and so yeah, and so that was the real thing there, and what a lot of. As you probably see, in the recruitment industry there's a lot of turnover. There's people who come in for 18 months, two years, and then they're gone, and so there isn't as much stability when it comes to, um, not necessarily just legal recruitment, but all recruitment. So when they see two people who've come in as directors and business owners, they're like, well, they're not going to disappear. So here's someone I can build a relationship with and I know in five years I haven't had to build a relationship with six or seven different consultants who've gone through a particular agency.
Speaker 3:They know that they're stuck with us well, it'd be like changing crms all the time. Yeah, yeah, like. Oh, our crms just left.
Speaker 1:We need to get a new one yeah, yeah, and with that people forget um, all that knowledge goes out the door too. So you spend all that time building a relationship for it just to walk out the door and then, oh, the next person in. I've got to explain the culture and maybe what a partner's like. That historically might have been a bit challenging, whereas for us. I remember one of the client meetings I went to. They're like here's your list of jobs, and they threw 12 jobs at me. It's a larger firm and I was like, okay. And they're like don't worry, you'll know half of these. And it's true, because I had recruited them 18 months earlier and now, with just how it progresses, the vacancies had come up, so they didn't have to do the nitty-gritty because I already knew.
Speaker 1:I already knew the partner. I already knew the personality. I knew the firm inside out, upside down, so it was easy. So then, I was lucky enough to fill four roles in two weeks.
Speaker 2:Nice rolls in two weeks. That was our biggest kick. Yeah, um, so that got the ball rolling. Yeah, that was a really good start for us. And I think and and to greta's point there what's really good is that this particular client could just say oh, we're looking for kind of similar to a blake or a declin or something like that. You know that person that you placed with us four years ago. Here's a new growth role. We want someone who's similar to that and there's that piece that you don't get if you're not working with building relationships with clients. So it was really easy for Greta to go oh, I know the kind of fit that'll work for them and like who works for the partners and things like that, so that you're having a situation where you can put someone in a role long term.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know. On that note, when you're bringing up, you know how you get first got started and some good wins. I'd love to understand what your expectations of starting your agency were versus the reality, because quite often and we've spoken to a lot of partners their expectations are actually far lower than what the reality is, than when they got started. So I guess, just to frame this and give you an idea of what I'm thinking, did you kind of have some sort of thought along the lines of oh well, you know, if we get one deal in our first month, you know that'll be good, and then hopefully by our second month we've got a couple of deals in, like what was your train of thought before starting and then what actually happened?
Speaker 2:yeah, uh, it's funny, I was just. I was. I was listening to a podcast the other day and in part of that they said high performers will grossly underestimate how well they can do and the low performers will grossly overestimate how well. Um, and to your point earlier about being risk adverse, before we started the business we did an excel spreadsheet of expenses and things and how we used to. I'm terrible at excel, but how we figured out kind spreadsheet of expenses and things and how we used to. I'm terrible at Excel, but how we figured out kind of the calculations and things. Basically we inputted all our data and at the end it was how long can we last financially before we need to make a placement? So we literally had at the bottom there.
Speaker 3:How long was that, wasn't it 12 months.
Speaker 2:It was 12, and then I added in all the expenses that I'd forgotten about or preferred to forget about. And then suddenly it got down it was $12,000, and then I added in all the expenses that I'd forgotten about or preferred to forget about and then suddenly it got down to like 6.12 months before we need to make a placement, and kind of being paid for invoices and things like that. So we were going into it and we're like, okay, if we don't make a placement for four or five months, we've still got up to six months to make a placement. That's how. So that tells you how risk adverse, even though we were like, oh yeah, we're going to start a business where we don't care about the risk. If it doesn't work out, we'll get something else. On the other side we were like, okay, we've got six months before we can make a placement, and we weren't sure how that was going to go.
Speaker 2:We were like oh you know, maybe we could, maybe we couldn't. So, to answer your question, the expectations were there question. The expectations were there and then do a deal in the first six months was the was the goal yeah, we'll just make it a really big one. Um, so then, yeah, then got into it and the, the people who reached out to us, all the roles that we got on within our first few weeks. We had more roles, really, than than we knew what to do with you're shooting fish in a barrel.
Speaker 2:I remember being here yeah, every day, just like new client meeting.
Speaker 3:You're out of the office more than you were in here.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we had a lot on and started making placements quite quickly and I guess the difference for us is that now every placement that we've made, we feel really good about it, and this is probably. There's probably some agency recruiters out there who are thinking I'm not happy with all the placements I'm doing. I, yes, I'm getting deals done, but I don't know if that was the right fit or things like that. The great thing about running your own business is that we've been able to kind of been selective with the clients we're working with. So we know people who we place there, or friends that I've had work there or Greta's had work there really enjoy it. So when we place and we go, I know that's a good placement. I'm not thinking in the back of my mind oh, I don't know if I should have put them there and it's. That's been a real difference for us.
Speaker 3:You know, most small business owners don't get to say that, yeah, they usually just scrap it around for whatever deals.
Speaker 4:It's actually worse to be a recruiter, because oh, shit, I need this deal, I need this deal.
Speaker 3:They're always just in a stressy mode. Yeah, sometimes it can take a couple of years just to get out of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess. And look, we certainly still feel that sometimes we're like, oh, we want to get things on the table or we really want this one to go through. But we've kind of been able to take a step back and go. Is this beneficial for the client? Is it beneficial for the candidate? Because ultimately, you want to see them.
Speaker 2:Some of the candidates that I placed when I was first in recruitment they're still in the same roles now, over five years later, and that's because I knew it was the right placement to make and clients remember the deal. They don't remember how many deals a particular recruiter did. They're like, oh, you placed that person five years ago. They're fantastic. That's why we really like working with you. So I think, being business owners, we've been able to step back away from the budgets and the kind of pressure that that brings. We obviously put our own pressure on ourselves and what we want to achieve in the business, but we've been able to scale that back and go. We want to have a great brand in the market and the way to do that is by we'd prefer to make less placements and know that we're building a really reputable brand and that clients trust us and our candidates trust us.
Speaker 4:Okay. So if there are any recruiters out there that are interested to find out what it's like to have a VA, support them in their role whether that be to bill more, reduce tasks that they don't enjoy doing or be a more effective recruiter in their niche then we definitely recommend reaching out to the outsource people or top Reach out to them, inquire on how they can implement a VA in your agency and to support you. And if you mention ex-recruiter or confessions of a recruiter, they will give you a 13% discount off your bill per month on this VA. That will allow you to scale your business, scale your desk and to bill more and make more money. So go reach out to the outsourced people, say Confession, sent you, get your discount and see what is possible.
Speaker 4:See, it's so different when you're in recruitment, as a recruiter working for someone else, you're just trying to hit your budget, your threshold. You're trying to sandbag deals into. You know, get the highest comm rate because you're finally over your threshold and you want to get paid it. You don't want it to fall in the next quarter because it'll be four months till you get paid on that again. So maybe you might jeopardize a deal or push a candidate into accepting something quicker than they should have. But now, being a business owner, you can really just take a step back and have, I guess, much more fulfilling and purposeful work. I mean, how are you feeling? You're still doing exactly what you were doing as recruiters at your last agency, but now you're doing it for yourself. I'm sensing there's a lot more gratitude, there's a lot more pride, there's a lot more fulfillment in what you're doing now. That's what it comes across like. Am I onto something there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, very much. So I've always gone into everything with a really strong ethics mindset and maybe that's why I didn't fit into a traditional agency model. Even from day one, the general manager was like you don't have the right business mindset to be in this agency at the moment. You care so much about the people and whether it's the right fit. You're forgetting about the dollar sign above somebody else's. Really, yeah, jeez, they were very-.
Speaker 4:Said the quiet part out loud eh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was just like ooh, because when you go for these interviews, I guess agency was a whole new world for me. I didn't really think about the budgetary aspect. I just thought about, oh, I get to do recruitment on a day-to-day basis and I get to help people find that role that they're looking for, and I had no idea about the other half actually probably the other 80% realistically of the role which is sales, and that's what recruitment is. Realistically, it's sales of people. But there's ways in which you can do it which is ethically right in my opinion I had the exact same experience because I got in I didn't really understand it.
Speaker 3:Like I placed a couple of roles and I was like, oh sweet, there's a fee involved. I didn't realize there was that much money at stake. Um, still going into my first week, I still didn't know why people get paid to find someone a job to the level that they get paid. And then my first place no, not my first, it was like my third month and it was a difference between a 100K quarter my first 90 days and then it was like a 5K bonus. And this girl pulled out and she's like, hey, look, I don't want to take the job. And I'm like, yeah, thinking in my head, I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't want to take this job either. All good, hey, all the best.
Speaker 4:I had to call her back and be like, hey, you've.
Speaker 1:And she was like yeah, so the boss was like what do you fucking mean?
Speaker 4:Declan.
Speaker 3:Don't, franklin don't just roll over and take no for an answer.
Speaker 3:Fucking call them back and tuck them in. Yeah, no, it wasn't tuck them in. It was like you've, just, you've annihilated all relationships in the industry. And she was working for like a cool company and going for some furniture wholesaler. Yeah, and it was like you've, and I just had to give this girl a blast. Essentially and just and all the the team was like, yeah, give it to her. She's like you're just after your comms, your pig. I was like, oh fuck, this doesn't. But my natural instinct was like, yeah, all the best, chat soon. She was happy as and I called her 30 seconds later back, she's like hello. I'm like, yeah, look, what you've done is unacceptable.
Speaker 4:And just ripped her to pieces. But we were quite literally instructed to call them up and blast them and say never fucking apply for a job through our agency again. We never want to speak to you again If someone says that they want the job.
Speaker 3:And then they what? Or the reception. You call a receptionist. You'd end up arguing with receptionists about your confidential information you need to give to the director.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, it was really strange.
Speaker 2:Oh, confidential information you need to give to the director. Yeah, yeah, it was really strange.
Speaker 4:Ours probably wasn't to that extent.
Speaker 2:I guess one thing that I learnt from that is when talking to candidates, getting to the crux of it, what's the real reason they're not taking the job? Is it because they don't like the job, which fair enough if you don't like the job and it's not the right fit, but is it salary? Or is it that they haven't gotten enough information? So I had a situation like that recently where a candidate was like, oh, I'm unsure of the job, and I said let's do a coffee, catch up with someone else who works in the firm, and it's interesting how that completely changed their perspective on the firm and things and they ended up really loving it.
Speaker 2:So I think, when it comes to that piece of talking to candidates, to that piece of talking to candidates, it's about, yeah, being kind instead of blasting them and getting more information. And it happens all the time where you have someone who you may not have necessarily placed, they come back to you five years later and go you weren't a dick, I really liked you. I'm looking for a new job, um, whereas if you're blasting them, yeah, they're not going to come back.
Speaker 3:100 yeah and now you're working for yourself. You're, you're investing in coaching, you're upskilling yourself. Matt costans is working personally with you both. What? What made you want to do that? Why have you always wanted to invest in yourself and get learning and development outside of just doing your job? Or is that just you know your new thought processes and this abundant mindset you guys have adopted?
Speaker 1:um, definitely a new process for myself.
Speaker 4:I've never Did it take you 24 hours to think about jumping into the coaching? Oh, yes, it did.
Speaker 2:Yeah it was probably about 24 hours.
Speaker 1:And I was like, hmm, I don't know about this. And it's funny, when I met Matt for our first meeting, he's like I still can't see and I can't get from your face whether you're enjoying this or not, and I was like I don't know either. But but I figured I needed that accountability piece for myself. Personally, I've loved a lot of the managers that I've worked for, but historically when I've gone through my roles, they've always gone within the first one or two weeks you are competent and I have full faith you can do your job, and I never hear from them again.
Speaker 1:I've never been an employee that has had regular check-ins or upskilling opportunities or even like REM reviews or performance reviews, because I've always, luckily, excelled in the roles that I've applied for. So for the first time in my life I was like I think I kind of need someone to step in and make me almost accountable but also teach me something that I might not know. And that's what I said to Matt. I was like I'm sure I probably know a lot about this role, but there would be 100% things that I've never been taught which will just make me that little bit better, which in the long term will add up. And that was, for me, the piece why I really wanted to work with Matt, so it could be just that extra executive who can come in and really just teach something extra, and it's nice to have someone that's like not directly emotionally involved in the business either, like having someone external and go.
Speaker 4:you're not doing this right. This is really good. Lean into this more. This is your superpower. Stop doing this. It seems to zap your energy. Get that off your plate. Find someone else to do. That is a super powerful thing. So what about you, zach? How have you found it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I found it really good so far. I was always someone who worked in roles, and particularly in agency. I always wanted that external training piece, because a lot of agencies have training programs or not training programs that you're involved in, but I guess there isn't that broader perspective that an external coach can give you. And so, through Matt, there's all these things where he can come in and, as you said, blake, there isn't that bias there. So he's coming in. He's like you're bad at this, you're good at this, here's where you need to prove you're not doing enough phone calls or you're not doing this. And it's someone who, yeah, doesn't have a Matt obviously a vested interest, but isn't so heavily and, as you say, yeah, emotionally involved. So it's been really good to get a perspective from someone and Matt's grown businesses. He's helped people in all different industries as well.
Speaker 3:So he's worked with legal recruiters before from a coaching perspective, one of his first- clients, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it was great to have someone who can bring an external perspective. But they also understand our industry as well, and so Matt's got a really good grasp of a number of different industries or niches within recruitment that he can provide a lot of value there. And so I thought, yeah, let's go into this, let's do the external coaching so that we can become better business owners, because the learning doesn't stop, um, and when you're a business owner, it can be very easy to have some successes and go oh, things are great, take the pedal off, yeah, um, and having a coach there and someone to guide you can keep you, keep the pedal on, because if you don't do that, then six months down the track, the successes that you have have all been short term and then it's disappeared. Um, so it's, having that external coaching has really been.
Speaker 4:I guess a long-term goal for us in the business.
Speaker 2:What was your workshop like? Because you did your workshop last week. Yeah, we did. How was that? Yeah, it was great, very open discussion really, and that was the great thing about it.
Speaker 2:It wasn't just oh, here's the business, here's what you need to do to grow, that it was looking at the big six, so everything outside that say financial, spiritual or your community, your health and fitness, because so much of that goes into running a business. It's not just going in doing the recruitment. I think a lot of recruitment is mindset. So if you're not having the aspects of your life in check, like your health and your fitness, you can't be a good recruiter. You really need those kind of downpats. So we really liked that and actually out of that I built more of a habit schedule. I'm pretty bad with my habits, kind of outside work, so I'll be like, oh yeah, I'll go to the gym, do it for a few days and then drop off and then pick it up. So that's really kind of set on building the start of my day and the end of my day so that you can make the middle of the day, which is the work day, far better.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 3:So you're going to be better at business owners than Jack's by the end of the year.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's the goal.
Speaker 3:Zach's going to have a six pack and a million dollar agency, oh dear. Getting married. Yeah, that's the goal.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, that's cool Like the. No, that's cool like the. It's funny because a lot of people look at starting an agency as like the end goal, like that's there, that's where I want to get to. But when you start the agency you realize you're at the, you're at the start line and you're about to, you're about to get started with this whole new chapter of life. So you know, when I speak to recruiters all the time like, oh yeah, one day I'll start an agency, and it's like bro, when you start an agency you're right back at the start and you've got to figure out who you are.
Speaker 4:Again. A big self-identity shift needs to happen internally. You start looking at how to upskill and educate yourself and it's a really exciting journey for a lot of people and obviously we're passionate about people going through that journey. But what would you say to other recruiters that are kind of thinking about that? How did you kind of rationalize it in your head? I know you guys mentioned it was like a you know a Wednesday thing and you booked in the Thursday. But how did you rationalize it in your head? Was it just the Excel spreadsheet? And you thought, yep, all right, six months, we've got to do a deal and and you know, let's pull the trigger on this, or was there anything else?
Speaker 1:Probably also relationships and potential clients that we felt we could bring with us on our journey as well. Some of them that we thought about we knew would be instant wins just from previous backgrounds. But then we also had a list of wannabe clients. I'm going to say an inverted comment who do we want to work with that we've heard of, but maybe haven't before, that we could bring on our journey that might support us and just give us a whole leg up, and luckily I think we executed our list.
Speaker 1:I think, we've actually signed up all the clients that we had.
Speaker 3:Really, that's awesome how many Congrats.
Speaker 2:I probably couldn't come up with a number.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there were six dream clients that we'd never worked with previously and we've just gotten the last terms of business to review on that list.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:What was the approach to them? Was it different? Was it the same? Did you tell them that you're a potential dream.
Speaker 4:You're on our dream list, mate.
Speaker 2:You're on our dream list, we've got to do it. I think how we kind of approached that was just not going into it with a mindset of, oh, we're selling this, we're selling the agency, just of let's have a coffee catch-up, let's get to know you. Normally I'd go in and be like, look, I haven't worked with you before, but I know of your firm in the market. They've got a really good reputation. When I've lost out on candidates it's been to your firm. So that's how I approached it and just having them get to know us as people, so doing that coffee catch-up. I think sometimes as recruiters you can get in such a mindset this phone call's got to be I've got to get a job from them, I've got to have terms of business signed. But really it's about building that relationship and growing with them and you can't do that if you're straight on the phone and going I've got people to give you and all of that.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of how we approach that. And just talking a bit about us, I've just said look, I used to work as a lawyer and I've worked in HR and Greta's worked as a legal secretary in business operations roles. We know what people do. That you're actually the roles you're recruiting for. We know what people do, that you're that you're actually the roles you're recruiting for. We know what they're doing on a day to day so we can provide value there. So that's what we've been doing there. And normally people have seen us on LinkedIn or somewhere and gone oh yeah, I know of you or I've seen you and things like that. So it's actually been easier than we expected from that, that point of view.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the other big thing too, which I think we forgot about, is we did a sales training with Matt when we first started and he played this video. I can't remember the gentleman, it was an American.
Speaker 3:Jack Daly Personalities.
Speaker 4:Yes, is he a big buff too, where you buy from the same personalities because you know you actually like them you like actually talking to them and conversing with them.
Speaker 1:So a lot of the clients we've got it's because we actually like dealing with them.
Speaker 4:Similar personalities.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all that similar personality traits. You don't go into the conversations really awkward because you know you're a D and an I or something like that. You're all very similar and you're all there for the right reasons and because of that it's funny. One of them's like you've built our whole team. And I was like yes, yes, I have actually, and that's because you've got that relationship there, so you actually go to work liking who you're working with as well.
Speaker 1:Historically, I've had some interesting clients who weren't probably my sort of people, but I'd have to work with them just because they were on my client list, whereas now we get to build it from the ground up and there is actually not one person on our client list where I'm like, oh, I don't want to pick up the phone and talk to you yeah, makes a big difference hey, so he's got plenty of d personality clients and Zach's got a few eyes it's been.
Speaker 2:It's actually been great, kind of leaving a coffee, catch up and going. Oh, even if they don't want to work with us, I like them. They're like, I can see, you know, catching up with them, having a drink with them. I like them as a person, which has been a really good feeling.
Speaker 4:You know what I was interested to learn. So to give context on what this next question is so you're working out of Kyabra Street. You question is is so you're working out of Kyabra Street, you're sharing an office with like five other recruitment agencies which is never heard of, like who's what recruitment agency shares an office with another recruitment agency, but there the other agencies in there are like blue collar recruiters, property recruiters, different variations of industry. Is there anything you're learning from being around like other recruiters in completely different industries that you're like wow, that's actually a really smart approach or a good idea. I like the way that they do that that you're incorporating in your kind of legal recruitment process yeah, it's been.
Speaker 2:It's been really good having different industries and I'd say probably the main thing has been that everyone in that office they're really high performers. So you're surrounded by people who are incredibly good at what they do and so you just soak that up. You're not around, say, low performers or people who are stressing out all the time. Of course there's stress involved in recruitment, but they're just really good at what they do and the phone calls that they have with clients and candidates and the way they approach it and how genuine they are is just really really good to see. And you're not competing with them either. So it's all a real growth piece. So everyone in that office can learn from each other. It's been amazing the conversations that we've had with people around. Oh, I noticed that you kind of do this in your process and I haven't been doing that. What value do you get out of that? And they say, oh well, this is what we do and this is why we do it and it's something that we can add into our process to make us better recruiters. Would you have any examples? Yeah, so, probably a really good one that comes from the H People boys. So, sam and Jory, they're just incredibly good at the BD piece.
Speaker 2:So traditionally Greta and I had, we came into a market that was kind of pre-COVID or during COVID, where legal just took off and a lot of recruiters were dropping off on the BD because firms were coming out saying we really need people. We really need people. But something that I've seen over the past four months being around them is just that, regardless of how the market's going or what they're doing, they're just going back to basics. They're doing the BD, they're making the phone calls, they're heading out to see their clients and that's just been really good to see someone do it so consistently and so well that it's really made us improve on that piece for ourselves.
Speaker 2:Because, as we said, it's all about relationships and what we've been able to see through those guys is that they're so big on the relationships and building them and the number of touch points they have with their clients as well has been really good to see. Sometimes there might be clients that you talk to a lot and sometimes less, but it seems with these boys they're on top of talking to their clients regularly, whether they've got things on or can add value with what's happening in the market. That's been really good to see. It's probably been a favourite thing for me. What about you, greta?
Speaker 1:I think for me. So it's a real mix, the agencies that are in our office. So we've got some really it is such a mix.
Speaker 4:Yeah, honestly, I try to imagine you guys sitting there like being extremely professional and then the boy's like, hey, mate, did you get that six-pack I sent out to site, literally.
Speaker 1:And there's like a real mix even between there's three of us who are pretty much only recruiters and then there's like two really intense contractor companies and it's good having the mix because you can see the difference, that's for sure. Monday mornings are interesting when you hear the interesting stories coming through as to why they haven't turned up to site.
Speaker 3:I want to set up a GoPro next to Sam and Jory's face and just record every reaction why they're not so funny.
Speaker 1:Funnily enough, we've got a board now with the best excuses that come through on a Monday. Oh man, they make me laugh and they're things I could have never, ever thought of as to why, someone wouldn't turn up to a job on a.
Speaker 1:Monday morning, but just being able to talk. So I guess Fraser from the recruit group. He works in commercial real estate and I used to work in commercial real estate, so he had a candidate and he wanted to approach the company that I used to work for, but he didn't know how to go in, who to talk to, what to do. So I just picked up the phone. I'm still great friends with them and I was like hello, we have someone here for you. Can you just speak to Fraser and he'll send through the candidate.
Speaker 4:Well, he got the placement Did he, oh nice.
Speaker 1:And that was a role that maybe had been open for a long time with three different agencies and then I'm pretty sure it was like a week and it was done and dusted.
Speaker 4:See how good is that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been good just to help, Like that's probably me the personality I help everyone. I'm not really in it for a fee or anything Like if I can genuinely help someone.
Speaker 3:How many Sparkies have you got on site None.
Speaker 1:No, you can't do that in the street. I'm sorry, but yeah, so that's been nice too. So it's almost like we've got like this little community bond forming, which is just yeah, it's just very different to what I had previously experienced, that's for sure.
Speaker 4:Would you stay in there long term? Like, what are your thoughts? You know, obviously you're almost four months in, so you're still new. You're still just red hot, so you're still new, you're still just red hot giving it a crack. Would you ever consider keeping that arrangement? Maybe you'd all have to get a bigger office, but do you think that would be long-term value in working around other recruiters long-term? What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:I think it's really good, particularly for your first year in business. So we're excited to see where it goes being around them. But there's been real value in being around high performers who aren't your competitors. I'm not sure how it would work, as, say, if you had five legal recruiters, for instance things like that you'd have to keep, you'd want to be very confidential, you'd be going, you wouldn't be spending too much time at your desk because you're ducking off to a meeting room to talk to candidates.
Speaker 2:But I think when you've got different industries, there's a lot you can learn from, because in recruitment it's all about the people and there's different people in different industries and things you can learn.
Speaker 2:So I think that for anyone starting out in business, particularly if they're doing something through X Recruiter, it's great to be around like-minded people that you can learn off, because anyone who starts a business is likely to have enough confidence in themselves to be a high performer. So you know you're going to be surrounded by people who are good at their jobs, who know that we're doing and who you can learn off. So I definitely think and anyone who's you know starting an agency or in an agency and they're quite small it's a really good opportunity to make connections with other people and, just as Greta said, then there was able to be some relationship built between the recruit group and us at Harper Lloyd and helping Fraser achieve a goal, because Greta knew the company and you wouldn't have that if Greta wasn't sitting there or Fraser was sitting there and, you know, asked the question. So it's been really valuable from that perspective.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the other benefit that people probably don't speak about enough when you go into a business, mostly it's an individual. We're fortunate in that we're two people. It can be lonely. We've gone from an office of a physical agency probably traditionally I don't know 20 people, probably more depending on the size of the agency. So you've gone from a lot of noise and a lot of structure training day to day to being by yourself. You're accountable for everything and I assume when a lot of people go out in business they're worried probably about it's probably not the loneliness piece, but it's probably getting inside your head piece in that loneliness piece.
Speaker 1:So if you say don't have an office to go to, so we're lucky here, melbourne's lucky, they've got a hub as well, you're getting out of that mindset of I'm at home 24 hours a day looking at the same white walls, which was very similar to COVID, which is where I guess I got to. I didn't want to be in the same mindset day in, day out, because you're not pushing yourself, because you get comfortable. It's almost the same as if you get dressed every morning in work clothes and still go out of the house. You've got the different mindset, so you've still got to keep some rhythm of your previous, I guess, life in inverted commas, going to ensure that you're doing the same job but it's just in a different environment. So that's probably the other main key piece is you've got to get out. You can't physically, I think, be a fundamentally great recruiter if you're working from home five days a week. You actually need that activity around you to get in that headspace to almost bump you up if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's just community and people like you. Look at even athletes. They don't just train on their own at their home track, they go to like meets and compete with other people and get around everyone. You can see the the level of success you can get at home. That's what you can achieve in an office. There's a reason why there's cities with offices everywhere. It's because it increases performance yeah, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1:And like WeWork would be another great example, which is probably kind of similar to what we're in now, just in that a lot of agencies that are of a small nature sometimes congregate in a WeWork, because you can get that hot desk sort of situation but you're around other people, yeah, so that works.
Speaker 3:But you don't talk Like there's no collaboration, no, like when I started my little office I was just there on my own wigging out, and then you talk to another business owner. He's like just as fried as you because you're both just for us and you're like, wow, this is a weird dynamic. So to have everyone like being like, let's go, we're in this together, I think that's the most powerful thing that's connected us all.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think everyone's in like that abundance mindset where they want to look after each other and want to see each other succeed. I've always wondered, like I've never worked from a WeWork before, but, as you say, like you could work from a WeWork and build relationships and connections with other people, but it still probably wouldn't be as successful.
Speaker 1:It's almost intertwined.
Speaker 4:Yeah, because you sit next to Fraser and you're like, oh geez, that was a shit call. What are they hanging on to mate Fraser's in there, like oh damn it. Can you give me the intro?
Speaker 1:It's almost like we've got colleagues, but just for different businesses.
Speaker 1:If that makes sense so you've still got those people who are like how was your weekend? We know about your partner, we know about your kids. So you get that sort of feeling, so you're not alone. But yeah, and like for agencies, you're running your own desk. So, realistically, you are an individual in a larger organisation and I guess you could say that's what it's like now, but you're on your own ship, you're in charge of everything, but you've got the best of all worlds as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 100%. Yeah, it's like the best parts of agency all put together. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:You don't have anyone who's kind of bottom drawing candidates or doing that kind of thing. You've just got people who can support you and it's really good to be. If you've had a bad call or a bad situation, it's great just to bounce an idea off someone and have that kind of instant feedback and everyone's there to help each other. You're not at home. If you have a bad call at home and you're by yourself running your agency, you can mull on it for a long time.
Speaker 4:Yeah, procrastinate, yeah, yeah, 100% Okay. So what's the vision with Harper Lloyd? Where do you want to kind of be around that 12-month mark? Do you guys see yourselves just being high performers, you two, or do you think you might get staff on? Or where's kind of your head at with your business growth?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we definitely want to grow to bring staff on. I think at the moment it's really about cultivating strong relationships with select clients. So we don't want to be legal recruiters in Brisbane who are working with 95% of the market. We, as I said before, we prefer to work with really great clients and really good candidates. We know they're finding the right fit.
Speaker 2:So for us, I think in this kind of growth phase, it's really about cultivating and building strong relationships with our clients and, in particular, there have been placements that I've made so far that haven't come from having an active role on.
Speaker 2:So it's been me just talking to the law firm and going I'm working with this really great person. They've said they want to work for you. I know you don't have anything active, but do you think we can do something here? And because I've built a relationship with them, that conversation's easy. They're like oh, let's see what we can do, let's and we've been able to create success out of that, where you can't always do that if you're working with 90 of the market, because you can't build relationships with 90% of the market to the extent that you need to to build a good brand. So really for my, my focus has been real around that relationship piece and so that when we want to bring staff on, we've got a really good process and really good system in place and we can kind of help recruiters grow in in Harper Lloyd with really great people and I want to long-term brown staff for a very different reason.
Speaker 1:So, historically, I've never been someone who, as a little kid, was like I want to be a doctor or a dentist or a lawyer. I've never really known what I wanted to be, so I've always just fallen into roles. And I want to give particularly younger, probably admin-based people or people who maybe don't know where they fit for their career journey, somewhere or a place that they can come to and know that they will be looked after long term, but give them another option that maybe they didn't think about because I didn't get that option, I just fell into it. But I would like to give people a career or a sense of purpose that maybe they didn't expect.
Speaker 1:So I personally love getting on the little younger people that maybe have graduated high school, giving them a really good fundamental admin basis and then they can go out into the world and decide what they want. And just giving them the choice or an option is ideally what I would like to do, because sometimes if you don't have a university degree in our current society, you're overlooked, and I would like to give just another option to those people who maybe don't have the mindset or maybe ways to go about that, just something different and something that they can be proud of, and maybe it is. They want something like a house, so they maybe want the earning potential as well. That's the best thing about recruitment it's uncapped, so it depends about if you put in the hard work you'll actually reward it back. So I just want to be in a position, too, where I can help people live out the lifestyle that they want for themselves as well, that maybe traditionally they couldn't.
Speaker 4:I love that they just didn't have the option.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's awesome. You know what that reminds me of like? Why I wanted to hire people is because recruitment changed my life, and I don't have a university degree, and it wasn't until I got into recruitment that I realised well, I could actually make something of this. And if you can get those young people that really have no idea what they're doing and you're like, hey, I reckon we could change your life here and show you a way where you could increase your earning potential and really travel a path you never expected, that's pretty rewarding, right. So that's certainly a really fun part about growing a team beneath you is giving people who don't realize the opportunity in front of them and then them going oh, wow, this is. This is amazing. Love Zach, love Greta. I can buy a house now. I can, you know, raise a family working with this business, and I never expected to be here, so that's a really cool way of thinking about it yeah, a bit different, probably.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just wish, um, when I was going through, I guess, my early 20s, there'd been something like this for me. So that's what I see myself doing for maybe the next generation coming through, just so they're aware, because half the time they don't teach you at high school what it's actually like in the real world.
Speaker 3:You've got to figure it out. Yeah, that's all for a reason.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, they try and keep you down, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:That's impact and story. I think that's why you know, because if you run a successful business, money is a part of it, but it's really like the impact, the story, the personal growth that you can bring people on with you. That's what excites people, yeah 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and really, if you've got that growth there and you're passionate about what you do and you care about the people, the money aspect just comes. If you're not and that's what we've found we're not focused on oh, we need to get this deal done. And we want this deal done because it's going to bring us X amount of dollars. We're like let's help people find the right fit for them. And just naturally, because we've been so focused on finding people the right fit because the fit for everyone's different I remember working in law and there were firms that I worked at or friends worked at that were like I love this place, but then the person who sat next to them in the same team would go I hate this place.
Speaker 2:So, because we've been really about finding what our candidates want and the right fit, the money aspect's just been a natural kind of part of that, because we've been so focused on kind of as Greta said before kind of the ethical piece and doing what's right for people, because jobs are a massive part of everyone's lives and if you're in the wrong job or you're not liking it, you're not going to enjoy your life. You spend so much time at work and it's what gives you the money to live.
Speaker 3:So why not do it in a job that you actually enjoy and mate, thinking about your comment earlier about having a coffee with a candidate and the client and closing them, essentially, is that you just thinking outside the box? How can we? Yeah, yeah, so in that, comment yeah.
Speaker 2:So in that sense I've never thought of that. Yeah, it's something that I actually I learned from a colleague who I used to work with, who was exceptional at just being. She was a really genuine person and was really good at that closing piece. So I remember when I was doing a deal a few years ago, the candidate said, oh, I don't want this job. Like and I was I did the classic like oh yeah, that's okay, it's not the right fit for you, thanks Bye. And she was like did you find out why? And I was like, oh no, they just said they didn't want it. And so, anyway, that taught me to think outside the box and ask questions.
Speaker 2:So in this particular instance, the candidate said, oh, I'm not too sure about it. It was one interview and straight after the interview the firm offered. And so I spoke to the candidate and they said, oh, I'm unsure, I'd have to think about it. So I was like okay, let's see if we can do a coffee catch up with a senior associate. So I went back to the client and actually said, which recruiters probably don't do? I said don't offer them the role. Yet I said hold off. Can you hold off on the offer. I know you want to get them on board, but I don't know if they're going to take it because they don't have enough information. And they said yeah, that's okay, we'll hold off on the offer. So I said let's hold off. Organize the coffee catch up for that Friday with someone who is at the same level to them within the firm.
Speaker 2:And they were able to say oh, I know these were your concerns in interview, but here's what we actually do, here's this and these. And it just provided them with a different perspective. And in the end they were like oh, I actually really want this opportunity. And it's funny talking to them now. They're in it. They're like so far, so good. I really love it. I'm so glad that I've got this opportunity. And you know, four years ago I would have been like oh, you're not too sure about it. Okay, well, here's the offer, do you want to take it?
Speaker 2:And look, in that situation they probably would have said no just because they didn't have the and interestingly, that ended up being the biggest placement that I'd ever done in recruitment.
Speaker 4:Wow, yeah, that's how the big one got done. Yeah, holy shit, breaking records. Harper Lloyd, let's go.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, in that situation it was because I wasn't focused on oh, this is going to be my biggest placement, or the money aspect I was like, okay, you've got someone here who said they want to work at this firm, but they're unsure. So what can I do to provide them with all the information? And, look, it's not the right fit. But I think as recruiters you need to look at all the avenues for a person so that you can give them as much information to make an informed decision. So in that situation, if they didn't have that extra information, they may not have taken the role. But now they've taken it, they're really enjoying it, they're a few months into it and they're like, oh, I never thought this would be the case, thank you.
Speaker 2:And it's just felt so good as a recruiter to have a situation where you've really helped someone go into a role because you've been able to kind of tell a client Because I know most recruiters will go, oh, there's the offer, let's get this deal done, let's wrap it up. But I was like, no, let's hold off for a week, let's get this coffee catch up in first. And it's funny how it turned out to be successful because I held off on thinking of a quick deal.
Speaker 4:I held off on thinking of a quick deal. What did the client think of that? Were they like oh okay, geez, thanks for your advice, I'll take your lead. That would have surely have built some good brownie points with the client.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was actually really good. I was freaked out going into it because I had always been the kind of person that was like, oh, because I was dealing with a partner on this particular placement, I was like I don't know how they're going to react. That risk adverse part of me is like, oh, I don't know how they're going to react. Are they just going to go? No, we're pulling the offer, or no, they need to take it. But I was like I just thought, no, I've got to go into this and explain the reasons behind it. So that was, I guess, the difference. I didn't go in and say, oh, I think we should organise back a little bit. This particular candidate isn't actively looking in the market, so they're not, you know, spraying themselves out to 10 different firms looking for a role. They've been looking for the right opportunity. So I think this is how we kind of provide them with extra information. Is there anyone that you can?
Speaker 2:So it was scary going into it, thinking, oh, I could potentially lose this because it might annoy the client. But as I said before, if you don't ask, you don't get. So if I didn't go in and say, oh, let's do this coffee catch-up, and the client actually responded really well to it. They were like, yeah, that sounds like a great idea, let's do it and let's see where we get to. And ultimately I was able to go back to the client a week later and go they're accepting the offer, they want to take the job, which is a far better outcome than oh sorry, I offered them the role a week earlier because you told me you want to offer it and they declined. So I look forward to kind of working with that client more.
Speaker 2:And it's funny, it's actually as a lawyer when you're a junior lawyer, you can be so scared of talking to partners and things for how they might react to something or because they're ultimately your bosses. And when I was in law I was always a bit scared of partners because they're so good at what they do and they're so senior. But in this instance I was actually able to build a really good relationship and now I just call them and be like how are you going? Do you have anything else that you need assistance with? Things like that. And it's actually made me a lot more confident in dealing with that client and that person because we had that kind of honest discussion.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's awesome. That's a great story to tell. That is a good story. That's going to be a couple of clips, I can feel it. No, that's awesome. Well, thanks guys for coming on sharing your story about Harper Lloyd. Congrats on all your success in your first three and a half months, almost four months, and we're really excited to do version two of the potty at 12 months to hear all the retro insights you've got in your first year in business. So thanks again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks so much for having us. Super excited to be here. Awesome Thanks, guys. All the best for the wedding.
Speaker 3:Thanks.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thanks for tuning in to another Confessions of a Recruiter podcast with Blake and Declan. We hope you enjoyed and got a lot of value and insights out of this episode. If you do have any questions or you would like to recommend someone to come on the Confessions podcast, we would love any introductions and remember the rule of the podcast, like share and recommend it to a friend. Until next time.