Confessions of a Recruiter
The show is hosted by Blake Thompson and Declan Kluver who respectively own Vendito Consulting and Blended Employment. Both have been in Sales & Marketing Recruitment for over 5 years. The podcast is about opening the door to the recruitment world and creating a community of recruiters who can share funny stories, educate and have honest conversations about the industry and their experience. All episodes are powered by xrecruiter.
Confessions of a Recruiter
Carolina Guillen Garcia - Ivory Group | Confessions of a Recruiter #106
Carolina, from Ivory Group, shares her captivating transition from hospitality to becoming a senior recruitment consultant in the architecture sector. Her unique background and education in psychology and HR bring a fresh perspective to recruitment, emphasizing the profound importance of people-oriented practices. Carolina unravels the complexities within the architecture, engineering, and construction industries, shedding light on diverse roles and the intricate project management processes that define this field. Her passion for nurturing long-term client relationships is evident as she articulates the challenges and intricacies of aligning perfect candidates with the right architectural roles.
Navigating the post-pandemic job market presents its own set of hurdles, and Carolina offers candid insights into the evolving landscape of architecture recruitment.
The episode explores the strategic shift from passive to proactive recruitment practices, highlighting the pivotal role of networking and relationship-building in staying ahead of the competition. Carolina’s innovative strategies for lead generation and client engagement are a testament to the importance of visibility and adaptability in a rapidly changing industry.
The conversation doesn’t stop there—it delves into the symbiosis between professional prowess and personal well-being. Carolina opens up about her personal journey of maintaining mental health and focus in a demanding profession, sharing practical self-care strategies such as journaling and meditation.
The discussion emphasises the transformative power of self-awareness and personal growth, demonstrating how even the smallest increments of self-improvement can have a profound impact on career success.
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Hi everyone. It's Carolina here from Ivory Group. Today I had the pleasure to be here with Declan and Blake from Confessions of a Recruiter. We had the best time talking about what it takes to be the best in the game. You don't want to miss this episode.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to another episode of Confessions of a Recruiter. This week we're recording down in Sydney, so thank you so much, carolina, for joining us on the podcast, and you're from Ivory Group, so it's going to be an epic conversation. And just to give everyone a bit of context, really you're currently a senior recruitment consultant. You're coming up to four years in the industry, so we're really excited to have you on Confessions.
Speaker 1:Thank you, declan, for having me here today. It's an absolute honor to be sitting with you and know a lot of your work and I admire what you guys do. So, yeah, I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you. Maybe for everyone listening let's give some context on your industry Perm, temp, all this kind of stuff. So I guess, to start with, what industry do you recruit in?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I specialize in architecture. Ivory Group in general, we specialize in the AAC industry AAC, aac so architecture, engineering, construction, those are all sectors Nice, and I specialize in the architectural sector together with any related role, so you can come an admin role from architectural studios and things like that. But yeah, so my desk is permanent desk. We do have some temps every now and then, but my speciality is to recruit for long-term commitments and long-term relationships with all my clients.
Speaker 3:So what kind of roles would you recruit? What's your bread and butter? So?
Speaker 1:architects, designers, project architects, project leaders. We have a lot of associate roles as well, so from grads to directors.
Speaker 2:How does the architecture industry work? Because my wife's an interior designer and building designer. Is the architectural industry especially in the resi or it would depend whether you're doing resi or commercial that's very fragmented. There's a lot of small architects that work for themselves.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and there is a lot of sectors as well. So you have architectural, as you said, residential space. You can have from the high-end residential homes or million-dollar homes to skyscrapers and commercial buildings in the residential space as well, mixed use. You have retail, you have medical centers, absolutely all of the sectors you can imagine within the architectural space. So we also recruit for interior design. So we have those external and internal part of recruitment and part of architecture. So, yeah, it's a full-on, all the spectrums of architecture.
Speaker 2:What was it like trying to? Is it simple once you learn it? Like coming from a hotel retail background prior before recruitment. What was the learning blocks you went through to learn the industry so many?
Speaker 1:Really so many. So I have a hospitality background right, and I came in without experience at all in recruitment. So they chose me for the architectural space and I said I have no idea what an architect really does for me. An architect, yeah, designs, but I've learned so much of what they do actually and there's a lot of responsibilities within architecture and their role. So the beauty of ivory group is that they gave me a lot of training and they took the time to give us an understanding on what the construction industry is about, what Sydney is about, how it works, how is it related to architecture and what do they do, from the designers to the project managers, what's happening inside the industry? So the difficult part was learning all of their….
Speaker 1:Industry terms the terms like the software they use, like the terminology of things like learning their language, basically. But once you know that, then it's easy. Awesome, because I think in any industry if you know the terminologies, if you understand what they're looking for, then it's much easier just to go and find it.
Speaker 2:And I feel like in the architectural industry there's a lot of industry that come together. There's always events, there's always catalogues, there's, you know, the massive design show that's happening in Milan each year. Those types of things there's a lot of resources to learn about. But, you know, not every recruiters is fortunate enough about that in their, in you know, different industry sub niches that they may find themselves in.
Speaker 1:Exactly and getting to understand that the architect itself it's not only the designer, as you said, that can be designing massive, beautiful buildings in Milan, but also that person that manages all of their consultants and deals with engineers every single day to understand what's happening and how is the building going to be put together. It's not only designing, it's the buildability of those designs. So, yeah, they're amazing.
Speaker 3:So talk to us about getting into recruitment, because you've got almost four years' experience, you're in retail. How did you land a job in recruitment?
Speaker 1:So I was, yeah, looking for a new role because I had been in hospitality industry for a while. Coming from Spain, we have a very strong tourism, so it was the thing to do. I landed in hospitality, so I was working in hospitality and I started studying psychology. So the two years of psychology in Spain, that's good for recruitment actually, to be honest, it is.
Speaker 3:There is actually a little bit of a link there between psychology and recruitment.
Speaker 1:It definitely helps psychology for sure. So then I, when I moved to Australia, I started studying HR and getting an understanding on what a HR person does and the talent acquisition team. I got to learn that I would prefer to be in contact with the people most of the time, so that's why I chose recruitment instead of going straight to HR.
Speaker 3:So you chose recruitment Recruitment, didn't choose you. Hey, not many people proactively get into recruitment.
Speaker 1:Well, I didn't really know what it was until I got there. But from first glance on the HR duties I was like I don't really want to go and learn about strategy on the business et cetera. I want to be able to be in contact with people and moving. So that's why I went to recruitment, started applying different roles out there.
Speaker 2:What were you looking for in an agency, because there's about 8,000 agencies around Australia varying from. You know one man bands, which makes up 70% of the market, or you know the big global players. What was your thought process on picking a good recruitment agency?
Speaker 1:So I didn't really know what it was to be a recruiter right, all of the hats that we have to wear when we are on a desk, but at the beginning I just wanted to have a supportive culture, like being around good people and learning from the best. So I heard that the directors from this company had been in Randstad for many years and they were best of the best, right from all.
Speaker 2:Asia Pacific yeah.
Speaker 1:From Asia Pacific. They were the best. How did you find that out? Oh, I spoke with HR.
Speaker 3:From.
Speaker 2:Randstad.
Speaker 1:No, from Ivory. Ivory Group, yeah. So when I had the first conversation with her, I asked for an understanding on how did they build the company itself. So she explained where the directors were coming from, who the team members were like a bit of everything and from them. Compared to any other agencies that I spoke with, the interview process was so in-depth. The interview process was amazing. I think I cried in an interview Really. Why? What made you cry? They really go into your values, into what's important for you, to what wakes you up in the morning, why you're doing what you do, why, in my case, I'm on the other side of the world on your own. So those things are important for them because they want to get to know if you have the resilience to do this job, because it's not an easy job, as you guys know. So, yeah, that's why I chose them, because it was an amazing interview process.
Speaker 3:That's actually what was going to be my next question, because Ivory Group. I don't know much about Ivory Group, but I'll tell you what it looks like on the outside tell me it looks very trendy. Okay, it's got a trendy brand good, I don't know if you've.
Speaker 1:We recently, we recently relaunch or brand. Okay, so we, we all think that we are always learning and growing. So the same with the company. The company is changing and evolving as much as we are inside the company and is a reflection of who we are. And all together came up and had a meeting, all of the team members, and started giving ideas to the CEO and the directors of what our values. How have we changed in the last two, three years? Okay, so how many people?
Speaker 3:are there About 30.
Speaker 1:How have we changed in the last two, three years? Okay, how many people are there? About 30. Okay, so it's a team of 30.
Speaker 3:Are most of them consultants or there's a few middle management?
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, we have probably three associate directors, and then the division managers, general managers, and then a little bit of senior consultants and consultants.
Speaker 3:And so what do you like about them?
Speaker 1:The culture, culture, the environment that they create for us, the support as well, the learning. We're always, always learning, absolutely every week. We have training and more development, and then we have Greg Savage coming and then we have Really yeah, talk to me about that, talk to me about that?
Speaker 3:Talk to me about that. You get like external coaches and advisors into the business. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. What does that do for you as a recruiter? Does it give you a little bit more motivation? Do you get like practical skills to take away and start applying? What does having because we've spoken about this a lot around getting experts in? You know you want to get experts in. You want to constantly learn recruitment from different angles. It sounds like every group's doing a good job of that.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent. What are your biggest takeaways? You should definitely do that because it just helps all of the consultants have a solid foundation on what it is recruitment, what it is good recruitment and how we're going to achieve our goals on what it is recruitment, what it is good recruitment and how we're going to achieve our goals. So we have consultants from what was his name, David, who helps us with branding Brand me better. Yes, brand me better.
Speaker 3:David.
Speaker 1:He's amazing.
Speaker 3:A bit of a shout out to DW.
Speaker 1:He's fantastic, so he helps us understand why it's so important to build a personal brand behind our profile. We have Sophie Robertson, who is a fantastic temp consultant, so she's amazing. She's helped our temp desk grow crazy in the last year. And we have people like Rex Savage as well. Like we do have a lot of training and a lot of consultants who help us understand that we're not on our own and that the recruitment space is skill to improve. You know that's really rare.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 3:Really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've had over 110, 15 episodes and not many companies invest to consistently do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the beauty of it. I feel that the people who's been in the company for a while understand that we have one of the best cultures there, but it's not about having pizza on the weekends or having drinks on Fridays. It's about building up our skills to be our best. That's it. We want to be the best in the recruitment space. Not the biggest company, just the best Quality recruitment.
Speaker 3:That's it. That's actually a really good segue to what we'd love to learn more about what is being the best recruiter? What do you do, or what do you strive to do, in order to become the best recruiter? Is it about being the best BDM, getting the most amount of jobs on? Is it about having the most amount of client retention? Is it having the best interview to deal ratio? What is the best?
Speaker 2:How does Ivory Group define their?
Speaker 1:best.
Speaker 2:The best.
Speaker 1:So for us, it's about doing the small things right. Well, so when we focus on being organized, when we focus on really caring about all clients and their projects and their company and what they need so understanding all clients and then being very good on the basics, right. So once you focus on the basics, everything else will come. So the money will come. If you focus on that, if you focus on really caring and putting the time to work with your clients in a partnership, we're not working for them, we're working in a partnership with them. Right and same similar thing with all candidates being able to deliver and to create our brand or a name and our reputation out there. So that's, for us, the most important that everyone knows that every group does quality recruitment, because once they know that, they will tell their friends and they will tell everyone else and it will just come.
Speaker 3:So what's that journey been like for you? Because we talk to recruiters all the time that first get into recruitment and there's usually a couple of oh shit moments. Obviously, we all love recruitment recruitment's how we make a living but there's a lot of oh shit moments.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent.
Speaker 3:What was the biggest oh shit moment you had when you first got into recruitment?
Speaker 1:biggest oh shit moment was when I lied to a client and yeah, it was. It was at the beginning of my journey in recruitment and I wasn't that confident in my services or in anything. So I started working on a role. We placed someone and a couple of maybe months, this person left. So I was like, oh shit, okay, let's get a replacement straight away. Working on a replacement with a client presenter candidate who was working with one of my directors and the client loved this candidate. Fantastic. Okay, let's get them on board, let's give them an offer.
Speaker 1:She asked me have you presented this candidate anywhere else? And my instinct said no, of course not. Like I'm working with you and kind of, and you're making her feel that it was only with her. Okay, I wasn't working in exclusivity with her, so I didn't have to say that, but that was my instinct. Uh, when I was on the phone call and she said and she asked that and I hadn't present the candidate elsewhere but my director did because he was working with that person. So afterwards, after I hang up the phone, I was like, oh my god, did I just lie? Like I'm always, you know, an advocate for honesty and transparency. And it was really big for me because I was like, oh, oh, my God, my credibility. Like if she finds out that he's interviewing elsewhere, that's it, I'm dead. And so I called her right after I spoke with my directors and she was like, yeah, you need to tell her because she's going to find out anyway. So, yeah, I called her and she knew already.
Speaker 2:That's why she asked you yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly so. But I told her she's like yeah, I know because he told me. I was like oh my God, it was so embarrassing, it was so bad. I apologized 3,000 times.
Speaker 3:I've got to be honest. I'm just going to jump in here and say, in the grand scheme of things, that's probably not a major mistake.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, he still hunts me to this day. Whatever she is, I'm so sorry. She was upset. She was super upset. That's why I felt so guilty for so long.
Speaker 2:She was like this is not the way. I feel like there's some industries where the little things really do matter. I feel like in such a high detail industry like architecture, that stuff, and there's the Board of Architects right, if you claim that you're an architect and you're not, they'll absolutely use the word architecture.
Speaker 1:You can't title yourself architect if you're not registered.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but at uni they tell you to go. You're an interior architect. So, deanna, we had letters when Deanna first started an architecture business, that from uni they're like yeah, you're an interior architect and blah, blah, blah. And then, yeah, the board of directors like went through a website, sent out a letter and we're like whoa, this is full on. So, yeah, I feel like 99% of the industries like construction or stuff where it's like all right, as long as we come within this close of something, it'll be okay. But those finite details really matter in architecture.
Speaker 1:I mean, and to be honest, she didn't really have that much of a right to be upset, because it's not like we were working in exclusivity. She was also using other agencies. And if I had For a replacement, yeah, like for anything Okay.
Speaker 1:So if I had the confidence that I have now, at the time I would have said well, I'm giving my kinder other opportunities, because that's what we do. We package kinder. That's with different roles. Yeah, but at the time because I was so new and I wasn't confident enough to tell her how things were. Yeah, yeah, that's why it felt so bad. So you had a good first year in recruitment? Yeah, first year in recruitment was amazing.
Speaker 2:It was right after the pandemic Best year ever. We haven't actually spoken to many people that have started their recruitment career post COVID 2021. How like, what was it? What was that year like? And then compare it to last year.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I suppose that all of recruiters have felt last year. So imagine coming in first year in recruitment. You have your first year, first full year in recruitment it's probably 400k and understanding that the jobs come to you Like. You learn that, wow, the clients come to you, they need you and you feel amazing because everyone needs your services. So you're placing candidates, money comes easily and you learn that that's the normal, that's recruitment Amazing year. Then things started to change and because we didn't really practice as much BD at the beginning at least myself, because roles were coming to me instead of me having to chase them last year was completely different, was tough, because we had to adapt our process. We had to adapt to moving from jobs coming to you to scrubbing jobs, whatever you could right and finding leads and being very creative with your craft to find the right lead and then take it to a role.
Speaker 3:So what's your method there? How do you find leads? How do you build your pipeline, build your desk? What do you do?
Speaker 1:Lately it's been a lot about networking, networking, getting out there, meeting with clients, meeting with other clients with other clients, like really being everywhere, like on LinkedIn, in person. Go have that coffee with that client, Even if they don't have a role with you, like for you, you want to be just checking in, checking in Like they know who you are. Get close to those clients, Like it's crucial. I think that's what I do the most.
Speaker 3:So what do the numbers look like? How many proactive networking calls or meetings are you having a day, a week, a month? Like what is good, at least?
Speaker 1:one networking event a month so that they see me out there. There's photos, linkedin. Be out there in a networking. There's so many networking events that we don't know about. You. Just search online and you'll find them. So those networking events and then at least two to three client visits a week. Like I want to be always out. Also because I enjoy the office, I love the environment, but I feel like when I'm out meeting with clients is when everything happens.
Speaker 2:You're right. Yeah, that's when you feel like stuff's happening.
Speaker 3:Exactly yeah. So would you meet with a client that doesn't have a live job 100% all the time? What are you meeting with them about?
Speaker 1:Let's catch up, let's go for a coffee, like, for example, right now it's like, hey, happy new year, let's catch up, let's go for a coffee. Get to know what is your view on what's going to happen in the first quarter in terms of recruitment. How am I going to be able to help you in the next six months? I want to be here for you when the time comes, so I need to know as much as I can about your company and anything you do, so that, when the time comes, I'm ready.
Speaker 3:Let me play devil's advocate for one second. Love it. So the conversation is around what their plans are for recruitment moving forward over the next three months, six months, 12 months. Why not just have that conversation with them on the phone?
Speaker 1:No, because they need to see you. They need to see how genuine you are and how much you actually care about their company. Over the phone they have a thousand other recruiters, probably people that you helped. That was a meaner. So, like there's so so many recruiters now out there, there's so many calls they receive every single day. So what's going to make the difference? How are you going to stand out from the crowd? Is going in person and being genuine.
Speaker 2:What's your pitch? To make sure, like as a business owner, if I didn't have a role, catch up with a supplier that can't help me right now. Not many business owners are that, yeah, that's true. So like, how do you create value in that meeting? Because a lot of people be like I call people all the time and say I want to catch up, but like they never actually want to meet me or they bow last minute Cause they're like I don't really have a need, you know I'll just. But then when you do like, oh shit, we really need a recruiter right now. You then go back through all your old potential meetings. So what are you chatting to clients about? Because not many people would be like no director or hiring manager should have time to just go and catch up with a brand new supplier that never does.
Speaker 1:That's true. So what are you positioning? And we find ourselves with many, many of those objections and the no's are part of the day-to-day in your BD list. So every time you have someone with a negative, you still don't accept the negative. Like I don't accept a no for an answer. I'm going to go have a coffee with you.
Speaker 1:So bringing value. Like how am I going to bring that? Thinking before I jump in the call. How am I going to bring value to this person? How am I going to bring value to this company itself? So I'm going to study who they are, what they do, what type of projects are they working on? Like maybe they're working on a commercial project that I know someone told me because I have been in contact with someone else. All of those leads, all of those conversations helped me understand what I need from that, what I need to say in that call. So bringing value. It could be gossip about the industry telling them how I know that this company is losing or this company is winning, or that this competitor is doing or not doing.
Speaker 2:Really yeah. I don't think many recruiters would shell out and say that A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for me it's been game changer. Have you heard what's happening down the road?
Speaker 3:Yeah, ABC companies have got a few redundancies. Mate Might be able to pick up a couple of people.
Speaker 1:It's a smart move, because not everyone is doing it, because they see that you actually have knowledge about the industry, that you know what you're talking about, and then they're like, okay, well, let's have a conversation.
Speaker 3:So are you overcoming objections for the meeting? So I'm just going to, this is off the cuff. So hey, Declan, just want to give you a buzz, Happy New Year. I want to meet with you and you go, mate, I'm flat out. I've just gone back and then I've got to overcome that. Gives me another objection. Overcome that. Finally, boom, yes, got a meeting. That's the win, right? So how many objections would you have to overcome to be able to just get the meeting in the first place, even if there's no live job? Yeah, quite a few. What if they say I've got no jobs?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's totally fine. Like I always say, that's totally fine and that's like the majority of my clients right now. We just started in the year. No one really has a job, a live job, right now. So what I'm doing is preparing ourselves to make sure that when the boom comes because it will come, it always does we are ready Right. And in the meantime, let's talk about salary benchmarking How's the team going? Staff retention, like ideas and things that other companies are doing that can help your company as well. So I'm not just a recruiter, I'm your consultant. I'm here to help you retain staff because, as I said, I place people in permanent engagements right. So my goal is that they stay long-term with the companies. In order for them to believe me, I need to showcase that I actually know how to retain staff.
Speaker 3:I love that. So do you go in with that approach, like I want to help you try and retain all your staff as well. Yeah, 100%, that's really good.
Speaker 1:That's powerful. You have to be very creative in recruitment so you manage to make up different approaches depending on what client you're talking to. So if I'm talking to a very small company that it's planning to grow, I'm going to take a different approach than if I'm talking to a multinational what's your approach for a small?
Speaker 1:business. So with the larger firms, normally they have their talent acquisition team. So I'll work more together with them, giving them the understanding that I'm going to help them liberate time as well. So that's mainly the approach with the bigger companies, because that's all we can do. They already have a HR team that manages all of that, retention etc. With the smaller companies, normally it's easier to be their HR kind of, because they don't have one right. So you want to be that advisor and letting them know how other companies are doing things. So that's the approach.
Speaker 3:Okay, cool. So what's your bread and butter? Do you have an approach where you've got A-grade clients, B-grade clients and you just go after, maybe, small, medium businesses, because there's no HR, there's no barrier to entry. You can be that consultant as you mentioned? What is the approach? How do you go? I want to get my billings from 400K to 600K.
Speaker 1:In my desk. Specifically, I want to be dealing with all of those medium companies because I want to be that advisor. I want them to believe that we can partner together and grow their company and help them grow. Normally I always go to the decision maker, so that's the easier type company that I go for. So that would be my A great client. And yes, we do have A, b, c and then we make sure that we prioritize depending on what's easier to feel as well, but also in understanding what company is going to bring me the longer relationship. So I don't want to just make a quick placement with a company that in maybe two months my candidate's going to leave. So that's a quick fee. But if my reputation with that candidate is just going to be an awful experience for them, I'm not going to be able to maintain that reputation in the market.
Speaker 3:So what's harder to get in your industry? Is it harder to get clients or harder to get candidates? What's the balance?
Speaker 1:It depends on where the market is at Like right now it's a little bit harder to get the jobs in.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:However, because we've been building the relationship with clients, the clients are there, right, you can have those conversations and catch ups and have many coffees. But if the market is saying right now we can't really hire, there's no room to grow, there's not much more. We can do More like waiting and trying to get new clients as well. So at this particular stage, candidates are much easier. However, we do have a shortage of skills in Australia, so to find good, good people a 10 out of 10, it's very difficult.
Speaker 3:How does that relate to your rates? So, like, what would your average rate be for a fee? Are you like sinking, like full fees? Are you getting negotiated pretty hard?
Speaker 1:So I do have clients that respect our process and respect what we do and understand, mainly when they've been working with us for a while. They just don't negotiate because they know how much work and how much detail we put into absolutely every process. Some clients that haven't worked with us before they see the market, they see other agencies, you know, dealing on very low fees, and they always come like, hey, but your competitor is doing this at 10%, like no way we're going to do all of the recruitment process because we do things well for a 10% fee. What is your recruitment process? It's very, very detailed. It's very in-depth. It's very, very detailed. It's very in-depth.
Speaker 1:It's not only about understanding if they can use Revit or if they can design. It's understanding who they are, what they want and how they're going to get there and how the company is going to help them get there. Because once you understand the candidate really really well, you're going to be able to deliver for the client right. So when you understand that this candidate has a mortgage, that has a family, that has three kids, that you need to understand absolutely everything about this person what are their values, what are their motivators, what do they want in terms of their career. So if that aligns perfectly with what your client is looking for, that's 100% much right. So unless you know that you won't be able to do those, do you meet?
Speaker 1:with candidates 100%.
Speaker 3:How often Probably every candidate I work with Physically or like video call.
Speaker 1:I try to do it physically, as I said. I think physically you get to know the person better. But if, for whatever reason, I receive a call today from a client and it's a very urgent role and I do have the perfect candidate just applying, normally they don't apply. I know them already from the network. But let's say they just applied and they're perfect, I'll ask them to jump in a team score A hundred percent. I need to know what I'm delivering, I need to know what I'm selling. So there's no way I can make a deal without knowing my product. So, yeah, always, always meeting you, my candidates. Similar thing with my clients. If I don't know your company, if I don't know your office, how the environment is, how am I going to sell it to my candidate? So when I talk to a client and they're like, oh, I'm really busy, just find me an architect, I'm like, no, I'm going to go to this Do you say no, of course.
Speaker 2:How long did it take you to build up that confidence?
Speaker 1:Because I think you to build up that confidence, because I think, like three and a half years three and a half, no, probably probably two years when, when the market started going down, um, and I had to very like to focus very much all of my time in bd, it's when I started to you know, craft that muscle and understanding what is it going to get me to results with BD? Because it's really hard when you're only doing BD. That was the biggest challenge, I think, in my journey is moving from one market to another. And when you have these downturns in the market and you're only doing BD over and over and over and over, every single day, fun isn't it? You feel drained, negative, another negative, another negative, another negative. Let's find a way to make this fun. Let's find a way to make this a good experience instead of just draining. How do you do?
Speaker 3:that? How do you make BD fun? Tell us your secret sauce.
Speaker 1:Well, try not to make BD repetitive and all the time the same thing and like a negative context around it. Like let's make BD something fun, let's go have a coffee, let's catch up with people, let's have a laugh with a client, let's get to understand what they need, what the company needs. I take it as a learning curve. I enjoy learning new things. So every time I meet with someone I'm learning about them. I'm learning about their history, I'm learning about what they do, their role. It's really important for me to get to understand the director's responsibilities right and what a general manager does compared to an associate director. So always finding it fun to learn something new. So that's like my challenge on the day. Today I have 50 calls to do. When they want to make sure, yeah, let's say 50.
Speaker 3:Have you done 50 BD calls before?
Speaker 1:Probably.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:One of those days of only doing BD.
Speaker 2:yes, when we started recruitment. That's all it was every day. He calls a day and you get two jobs on a week. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's actually really interesting. I don't know what it would be like starting post-COVID. It would almost give you this false sense of security, that recruitment is the easiest thing in the world Super easy.
Speaker 1:And you get complacent and you take shortcuts and you say, oh, this is amazing, I can do this easily. And then you find yourself in a downturn market. Did the directors prepare you.
Speaker 2:Were they like hey, this is going to ship.
Speaker 1:We weren't ready for what was coming. Really, we were just so, so busy with so much workload and so many placements coming our way that we didn't really have the time to get ready. So when things started moving towards the negative side, everyone was like oh my God, okay, now we need to run.
Speaker 3:Did Ivory Group have to let go of anyone? No, we didn't let go of anyone. Okay, so it wasn't that significant let go of anyone. No, okay, they didn't let go of anyone. Okay, so it wasn't that significant of a downtrend. No, no, that it would be like all right, we're going to get rid of five people.
Speaker 1:No, not in the sense that the company felt like the need to have to get rid of people, but the sentiment for everyone, like we were all very supportive with each other, like the sentiment was like we are in this together, we are all going through the same. Let's make this fun. So we pump up the music, let's make a game about it and how many BD calls can we do in one day? And challenges. And like we do games in the office as well, so everyone gets together to do sales calls.
Speaker 3:So it looks trendy on the outside and it's trendy on the inside.
Speaker 1:It's very fun. It's very fun to work in the office.
Speaker 3:Nice. So what does a good week look like for you? So you're doing two or three client visits a week. Yeah, how many candidate meetings a week are you conducting?
Speaker 1:Trying to get maybe four, five face-to-face. Yeah, always on the phone, that's the rule. You always want to be talking to people. That's your job really. So, yeah, getting out there, getting to talk to people, even if you don't have a role for them, just pick up the phone, give them a quick call, let them know who you are, what you do, what's happening in the market, and then they'll remember you later on.
Speaker 3:Where are you sourcing candidates from Like? Where do you find them?
Speaker 1:We obviously use Seek. It's a big platform but lately it's been more marketing for us, so like we get out there with Seek but where we really find the candidates is in the passive side of things. So it's more linked in and people that we know from the network in the past. So seek obviously brings people that sees the job ads, but the most successful placements come from the passive candidates do you do splits or share candidates clients?
Speaker 2:Oh, of course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I work with five other consultants in the architectural space and we all do JV joint ventures. So if I have a fantastic candidate, I immediately go to my team and say, hey, this is Joe. Abc responsibilities. They do B, c responsibilities. They do these, these, these, what do we have? And then my colleagues will come and say, okay, we can present them to company A. Another one would say I'm going to present them to company C, and then I say I have D and E, so, and then we present that candidate to all of the companies that we think they're suitable for.
Speaker 2:And that's on a national basis. Yeah, yeah, and that's on a national basis. Yeah, yeah. And what's the split? Do you go 50-50?
Speaker 1:Depends. So if I manage the candidate and they manage the client, it's 50-50. If I manage the whole process, but then they gave an opportunity to interview with one of their clients, they probably get a 10% interview with one of their clients, they probably get a 10%.
Speaker 3:Is it decided at the moment like in real time, or is there like rules to it? Because we find that a lot of recruiters there's sometimes a little bit of self-cannibalism that happens in recruitment agencies when you give splits, and so if it's 50-50, let's say, for example, when you give splits and so if it's 50-50, let's say, for example, I'll give you a prime example. Let's say you do 50-50. One person has a candidate, one person has a client. The person with the client says oh, I'm recruiting this role, I need to find candidates. This person over here flicks a resume across, hasn't spoken to the candidate but just knows the background would be right. Doesn't speak to the candidate and then all of a sudden, the consultant with the client is like damn, I'm giving away 50% of my fee for a candidate that that consultant has never spoken to before and just flicked me the resume. If I didn't network this role, I could have probably found that candidate myself tomorrow and got a full fee. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Does that resonate with you? That never happens in the office.
Speaker 3:No, okay.
Speaker 1:First, in order for you to present a candidate, you have to have spoken, interviewed and seen the candidate yourself. So in order to have a 50%, you are the candidate manager, and a candidate manager means the whole process with the candidate. Okay, then, as a client manager, I do the whole process with my client. So that means taking the job in preparing the client for the interviews, taking feedback, like absolutely all of the process with the client, and then the other person has to do all of the process with the candidate. That's the only way you get 50-50.
Speaker 3:Okay. So in this scenario I just get it's hard communicating through four people. Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, no, no. We are always in jobs, yeah, so we're always together and no, it's quite easy.
Speaker 2:Who'd be the number one biller in your agency At the moment Give them a shout out.
Speaker 1:Murray Murray is killing it. Murray Murray, she worked in the Murray Batara, she worked in the construction space. She's killing it. She is what does she do?
Speaker 2:different? Like a lot of a lot of people say they want to go from like 400 to 600, a million plus, or go from good to great. There's many terms out there. Everyone wants to be better. What does she do? That's different. She's obsessed, Obsessed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have to make recruitment your life Okay, and it's true. If you want to succeed in recruitment, it's your career and you have to take it very seriously. If you join in recruitment just to try and just because you need a job, it's probably not going to work and there's so many recruiters out there that don't make it past the year. So it's exactly because of that it's not just a job, it's a career, and if you take it seriously, you can make a lot of money. So what she does different is that obsession. It's that when she's in. What she does different is that obsession, it's that when she's in, it's 100% in. There is no distractions. There is no time for anything else than recruitment, that's it. And she's on the phone all freaking day. She doesn't stop. She's just so obsessed.
Speaker 2:Sometimes she doesn't eat, but something like at that level she's really, really obsessed and she's very close to the million dollar villa. Yeah, true, and it's the pace, the obsession, the knowledge of the industry, of course like she has taken the time to learn.
Speaker 1:As I said, every group is really good and giving us training and giving us the tools to become what we are now. So they've given her a lot of training, a lot of understanding on the industry and, because she's on the phone all day, she takes information from one client to another and then from another one to another, so she covers a lot of the marketing construction space. So just being out there, being on the phone and doing your job 100% all the time, you'll be fine.
Speaker 3:It sounds like a bit of a no-brainer when you put it like that, as long as you're just on the phone all the time and you're doing your job.
Speaker 1:It's super easy but then it's so hard because we are humans and because we have fears, and because we have. So there's two fears in the brain right Fear of loss and fear of gain. So either of them are going to come to you.
Speaker 1:Fear of gain is when you have fear to be successful. For example, if you've never experienced being successful, you really want it. Consciously you think that you want it, but subconsciously you have that fear because it's something unknown. So, all of the unknown, it's scary. So you might be finding yourself procrastinating and you know doing all the things that you should not be doing, because deep down there is a fear of gain. And the same other thing with the fear of loss, like if we are procrastinating certain activities because maybe we don't want to have a negative response from our clients or we are afraid of objections and things like that. So we might find ourselves not doing the things that we should be doing or that we think we really want to do so?
Speaker 3:how do you keep focused and not distracted? Because I've always said recruitment comes in two equal parts. One is being able to do the tasks and duties of a recruiter, but the second is to be able to keep your mindset, your focus, remove distractions and your house in order. Basically, so you could be a great recruiter, but your personal life is in shambles you can't focus, you can't prioritize and you're not a great recruiter. However, you could actually be a great recruiter, but your personal life is in shambles you can't focus, you can't prioritize and you're not a great recruiter. However, you could actually be a terrible recruiter from a skillset standpoint, but your house is in order, you can focus and all of a sudden.
Speaker 1:You're a great recruiter.
Speaker 3:So what do you do to make sure that your house is in order, but you're upskilling at the same time? Is there any tricks or habits that you've picked up that have changed?
Speaker 1:Let me tell you a little bit of what happened. So at the beginning, as I said, I had a very good year at the beginning because things were amazing in the market and like everything was fantastic. Then I had a very rough year personally and very, very tricky relationship that I had and that impacted immediately in my recruitment, because anything you go through in your personal life will be reflected and impacted in your work. So having a very supportive environment around me helped me so much. So that's why I'm so engaged with every group as well, because my manager was my therapist for months. They were amazing, super supportive. You have a team that wants to be the best at all times. You have a team that is lifting you up every single day. So that helped me so much to overcome those bad times.
Speaker 1:But then the work internally getting to know you, getting to do the work, the healing process, taking care of yourself that changed my life completely. Taking care of myself and prioritizing my well-being, even on top of recruitment, changed everything. What did you do to start? Prioritizing my well-being, even on top of recruitment, changed everything what did you do to start prioritizing yourself?
Speaker 1:exercising, meditation, journaling. There's no day that I don't journal. Now, what do you journal? I journal I, so tell me what I took to, um, I took to my inner child and I talk to my higher self, okay the time. So always talking to that child because in the end of the day, we are all that childhood and we go around the world reflecting and attracting those things that we lived in our childhood. So this comes from the psychology background and because of that I'm always trying to refer to. What fears are there? What was that child missing? What am I going to achieve today to make that child feel better? And it's me who is going to achieve it. Not anyone else, not partner, not company will make me feel better. It's me who has to make those steps. And the same with my higher self when I talk to who am I going to be? Who do I want to be? I talk to her every day because I have a vision and I want to achieve those goals for her and for me. That's really interesting.
Speaker 3:That's my journal. That's really interesting, my journal. That's really interesting. So um. So, in practical terms, you talk to your child self is that how you? Yeah, position it yeah and so what are the questions that you're asking or or statements that you're making to your child self that helps?
Speaker 1:So when I go through a BD call right, or a BD day, and I feel anxious because it's been a negative response and another negative response and I've been objection handling but it didn't go that well, we didn't achieve that client visit and et cetera, et cetera, that in a child gets affected and you feel drained because in my case I have a lot of. Let's say, I grew up without a dad, right, so there is abandonment issues there. So I'm always going to be affected by the negative responses, by not having that the gain and the yes. And because I'm a carer as well, one of my traits it's caring about people.
Speaker 1:When I have someone to tell me fuck off on the phone, I'm like, oh, that hurts. How am I going to make it better? How am I going to make them be okay with me? Like it's really confronting to have those negative responses when you have those wounds. So I always try to pause, take a break, go for a walk, like, put my music, put some meditation. I try to stop for a little bit so that I go back to me as an adult and say, hey, everything is fine, Don't feel abandoned again, it's just a negative call, but it's nothing to do with you. It's to do with whatever their workload is, or they had a bad day or anything, so I try to talk to myself, always out of those negative feelings?
Speaker 2:And is the journaling split? Do you focus on your inner child first on half your page and then your greater half yourself?
Speaker 1:Normally in the morning it's always gratitude first. So gratitude goes first. When I wake up, first thing being able to wake up, being able to see, being able to touch, to care, to walk, absolutely everything. I'm just grateful for what I have, my house, everything. And then I talk to the inner child, to what we want in the day, Just sorry.
Speaker 3:I don't want to jump in here. When you say inner child, I'm literally thinking of myself as a six-year-old.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Does inner child mean something?
Speaker 1:No, no, no, as inner child for the six-year-old self, just that thinking of you like what's the first image that comes to you when you think of you as a kid?
Speaker 3:For you, you just said six years old, a six-year-old kid on a grassy field.
Speaker 1:Cute For me it's four years old when I was moving from Ecuador to Spain. So that first memories, those first memories that you have as a kid and, um, how you communicate with that kid, helps so much. Like sometimes we are so hard on ourselves and we push ourselves so so, so hard would you give me an example of what you would say to your inner child sometimes we say things to ourselves as an adult like oh I'm so stupid, why did I forget that?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm so there, I hate it, like we're so negative. The theory is you wouldn't actually say that to your own child.
Speaker 1:You wouldn't say it so exactly you wouldn't say it to a four-year-old or a six-year-old. So when you have that in mind day, because in the morning you've done the work to visualize that child then throughout your day, you're much better with yourself.
Speaker 3:Oh okay, that's really interesting. I'm just going to speak to little BT. Yeah, that's a good detail.
Speaker 1:Good, you've done so well today.
Speaker 3:I love that. That's cool. Okay, yeah, that's a good takeaway. I love that.
Speaker 1:That's how I try to go on my days and that changed so much. But I started with that when I started therapy. So well, I had therapies before, but I did.
Speaker 2:You got to recruitment.
Speaker 3:You really needed therapy, yeah, therapy really just dialed up a bit Everyone should go through therapy.
Speaker 1:It's so important to talk to someone about all the things we go through therapy. Everyone should go through therapy. It's so important to talk to someone about all the things we go through in recruitment, but yeah, that helped so much as well.
Speaker 2:And then, what's your higher self, this vision, that who you want to become?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So with my higher self, I'm always grateful for all of the pain that she's going to go through and all of the things, the challenges that are going to come, but always visualizing the end result and the tranquility and the peace that she has that I am seeking, Like that higher version of yourself. It's in peace. It's not chasing anymore. It's not trying anything else. It's in peace. It's not chasing anymore. It's not trying anything else. It's in peace. So when I go throughout my day thinking I want peace, because that's my goal, I won't stress that much during my day because if I want to become her, I need to imitate what she would do right and my higher self would not have a breakdown because a client said no.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. I think a lot of recruiters would get value out of listening to that, because recruitment is a straight up mindset game and if people can speak to their inner child and their greater self, higher self. I think that would really put life into perspective. When you are in the grind, in the weeds of things, when you've got no jobs on and you're not sure how you're going to hit your budget for the month and you're freaking out a little bit, even on the flip side.
Speaker 2:When they achieve something and they think it matters so much and you're like mate, walk outside of this office. No one knows you, no one cares what you've done, doesn't matter what you've built. I think it would help keep egos in check on the same track.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent, I agree.
Speaker 3:I get to bring the dark into reality.
Speaker 1:It's like you're not one.
Speaker 3:Someone's had a big month. You're like mate, you need to go speak to your inner child. Let them know the big month you had.
Speaker 1:See if they give a shit Exactly Like it's just money, you can tell your higher self.
Speaker 2:My child would be like what?
Speaker 1:And your higher self would be like what are you talking? About. That's not even relevant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so good. So, yeah, that's how I go through it. Do you ever impart this knowledge on your team and be like hey, let's do an inner child session? Or is this like secret habits that you've just created? Yeah, have you ever told anyone you do this? No, oh, wow.
Speaker 1:So you're the first one. Oh yeah, I love that. Well, my therapist knows, and my mom as well. And well, two or three of my friends, close friends, yeah, yeah, they know that I love it, but yeah, it's something that I started maybe two years ago. And, yeah, game changer just when you start doing bd.
Speaker 3:That's it, you know. Yeah, good, awesome and so. So what's next? Um? Are you in in recruitment? Specifically, are you looking to become a billing manager? Are you focused on your career path? Are you happy doing what you're doing and your goals are more outside of work? Where are you going now? What's the next couple of years look like.
Speaker 1:So we recently had a new person in architecture, so I'm training them up and it feels great. So I think I want to continue in that leadership path and inspiring other people to be the best version of themselves, not only professionally, but personally as well. I feel like my manager changed my life as well. He was a support in tricky situations, but at the same time, professionally, he was pushing me to be my best. So I want to be able to impact others the same way. So I want to be a leader, definitely, and I want to achieve more in terms of the impact that I can make in other people. The money for me it's not as important. It's never been for me. That's why I started studying psychology, because it's about changing people's lives. So, yeah, I think that's going to be the next step. Yeah, the impact.
Speaker 3:That is an amazing ending to a really fun podcast. If anyone wants to reach out to you and learn more about their inner child and their higher self, how does someone? You've just opened the floodgates here. How does someone get in touch? The floodgates here how does someone get in touch?
Speaker 2:it's so embarrassing this is the stuff that people need. Yeah, the one percenters, yeah working on yourself.
Speaker 1:It's very important. The more you know yourself, the better you'll do in recruitment. The more you know your fears and why you're blocking certain areas, the more you'll build and the more successful you'll be.
Speaker 3:Love that Well. Thanks for coming on sharing your journey, sharing your secrets. It's all about confessions here, so you've done a really good job of sharing some of those confessions and, yeah, really appreciate you sharing your journey today.
Speaker 1:It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3:Thank you, beautiful podcast. Thanks for tuning in to another Confessions of a Recruiter podcast with Blake and Declan. We hope you enjoyed and got a lot of value and insights out of this episode. If you do have any questions or you would like to recommend someone to come on the Confessions podcast, we would love any introductions and remember the rule of the podcast, like share and recommend it to a friend. Until next time.