Confessions of a Recruiter
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Confessions of a Recruiter
Mastering BD: Coaching Strategies to Win More Business | COAR S1-EP5
Laura Cole, founder of HopesConsult and former co-founder of award-winning Lotus People, pulls back the curtain on recruitment business development in this captivating conversation. Having cut her teeth during the Global Financial Crisis in London's banking sector before building her own successful ventures in Australia, Laura shares battle-tested strategies that actually work in today's market.
You'll discover why "research and prep is still BD" and how to weave prospecting naturally into your day rather than treating it as a dreaded separate activity. Laura reveals her framework for handling even the toughest client objections and explains why the most effective discovery calls focus on uncovering what clients don't like about their current recruitment process.
Perhaps most valuable is Laura's passionate take on fee negotiation—a must-listen for any recruiter who's ever felt pressured to discount. "I just wish every recruiter would just say no, and then we wouldn't end up in this situation," she explains, offering practical advice for maintaining your rates while still winning business.
Whether you're a seasoned consultant looking to sharpen your approach or new to recruitment and building your foundation, this episode delivers immediately applicable strategies to elevate your business development game.
Connect with Laura on LinkedIn to continue the conversation and access more of her recruitment insights.
· Our Website is: xrecruiter.io
Hey, welcome back to Confessions of a Recruiter. In this episode we speak to Laura Cole, an incredible episode talking about business development, sales strategies, overcoming objections mindset. You have got a very interesting background.
Speaker 2:I actually sold my half of the business a couple of years after we launched. It was genuinely meant to be a side hustle. It's really rewarding because it's allowed me to partner with agencies more strategically, feel like I'm giving more impact. They're getting more ROI on the actual training that we then end up running.
Speaker 1:So if you want to grow your recruitment career, you will not want to miss this Enjoy. So, before we get into the business development, the prospecting, how to generate leads, why don't you share with us what you've been up to over the last 10 years? You can do a bit earlier if there's more fun, yeah, yeah you choose what's more exciting okay, I'll just handpick the best of, yeah, best of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I've been in Australia 15 years. I cut my teeth in recruitment in London. Gfc was my first recruitment role. I was promoted to a consultant and then two weeks later Lehman Brothers crashed and I was beading into banks and financial institutions. So I really, yeah, cut my teeth the hard way. I think for me definitely the best way and I think there's lots of benefits to it. So I moved to Australia 15 years ago.
Speaker 2:Ten years ago we launched Lotus People, which is one of Australia's most awarded business support agencies, and it's in its 10th year of operation.
Speaker 2:I actually sold my half of the business a couple of years after we launched, was really looking to do something different after a number of years in recruitment, but loved the industry and knew I wanted to stay attached to it in some way.
Speaker 2:So I kind of played around for a bit with what that was going to look like and really wanted to kind of align with what I loved and what I had loved in agency life, and it was training and developing recruiters. And so Hopes Consult started seven years ago. It was really genuinely meant to be a side hustle. I was teaching yoga and meditation at the time and I really thought that that was going to be what I would do. And you know, I launched the business and the first day I got three client meetings and it just snowballed from there and the business has really evolved over the last seven years. It's gone from that kind of initial training for green recruiters to kind of like full service L&D strategy and operations with agency owners running workshops, training and all of the kinds of exciting things. So that kind of brings me up to where it's at today and it's evolving all the time and I love that about it.
Speaker 1:Love that. That was actually going to be. One of my next questions is where is Hopes Consult today? Where did you transition from rookie recruiters to like this full suite of L&D training, all that kind of thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a really good question because what I was finding is I was going into businesses and layering training over no strategy and not really linking the training and development piece to people's career pathways and to like the actual strategy of growth in the business and so that kind of developed over time of having these more consultative conversations with clients around okay, well, what does the career pathway look like for a recruiter in your business? And you know, what performance frameworks do you have in place for that? And you know working with small to medium size agencies, actually realizing that a lot of them just didn't have any of this stuff. And so I had a couple of clients say, well, actually can we build that out before we look at the training piece? And then it kind of developed from there and it's really rewarding because it's allowed me to partner with agencies more strategically, feel like I'm giving more impact, they're getting more ROI on the actual training that we then end up running.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it just evolved over time and there were things that you know people asked you know, can you do this? And I'd never done it before, and I was like, yep, I can give it a go and learn on the job, definitely with a few more of those HR initiatives and developing EVPs and all of the juicy stuff there. But yeah, it's really nice to. I like the variety, so I say yes and then figure it out Like most recruiters.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:Basically.
Speaker 1:Awesome. So lead gen and prospecting.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So while this season for us, with Confessions of a Recruiter, is purely around mastering BD. So the first part of that, as we all know, is prospecting and business development. So, for you, what's the most effective strategy that you've done yourself or seen when it comes to generating leads, and what have you in recruitment?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think there's two things with this.
Speaker 2:I think one is building it into your day to day, and I think often we're trained to do that and then we forget about it.
Speaker 2:You know we're screening resumes but we're purely just thinking about the role that we're recruiting for and is this person right or not, rather than going, okay, there's maybe 10 companies here that might be potentials for me, that that last company, that person's leaving, you know, that's definitely a potential for me. And so actually weaving it into your day-to-day activities and always be thinking like, is there a lead here for me? And I think the other thing as well, which I really try and drill in in my BD training especially, is that, like, research and prep is still BD, and not to feel guilty if you're not just on the phone, like the plan is so much more important than the volume of outreach. And so really getting recruiters to go like, hey, it's okay to have a couple of hours a week of prep, that's still bd, it still counts, um, and I think that's been a really effective mindset shift for a lot of people that's really good.
Speaker 3:Actually, I had a director once kept telling me when you think about exactly that bd doesn't always have to be cold calling, it's still developing your business if you're doing it in that way, absolutely so in your experience and you know I I recruited in the gfc as well I don't think I had it as hard as you being in london doing banking, but how is your? How did you evolve from what you were like then to now in terms of how you did BD and prospecting?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a big question because I think I was taught really transactionally. You know it was ad chasing, it was just selling in candidates. You know it was calling people and saying do you need a receptionist, do you need an admin assistant, do you need? Do you need, do you need? No-transcript of volume to get back. And I think there's smarter ways of doing it now for sure.
Speaker 3:And so what are those smarter ways? If you think about the non-negotiable routines or habits you should have when you are out there doing BD, what do you see now? What should any recruiter listening make sure is in their Monday to Friday?
Speaker 2:Okay. So definitely a research session, and people always ask me what day is best for that, and I definitely think Mondays, like prospects don't want to hear from you on Monday morning, right, and you probably don't want to be picking up the phone Monday morning. So if you're not working on jobs anytime on Monday, however you structure your day, there't want to be picking up the phone Monday morning. So if you're not working on jobs any time on Monday, however you structure your day, there's got to be that prep and research. Planning your week. Connecting with people on LinkedIn, I think, developing value ads for your prospects, for what you're seeing in the market.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't have to be and I talk about this a lot with people these lengthy, like 40-page, 50-page, really cumbersome documents. Those are great, but these like short, sharp snippets of information, repurposing other people's content, giving people insights that they can read in two to three minutes. You know, using that as a, as a warm way of connecting with people and then you've got something to talk about on the phone. And so that that prep and research piece of generating your leads, you know, market mapping, really like understanding what's happening in your market.
Speaker 2:Connecting with people on LinkedIn and we didn't have LinkedIn when I started, right, so it was just phone call. Now we've got these tools to create a little bit of warmth with people. So I think, doing that prep work up front, and then you know there's got to be a little bit of BD every single day, yeah, up front, and then you know there's got to be a little bit of bd every single day, yeah, you know, and balancing those plates can be hard when you're sourcing for jobs and talent pooling, but there's got to be just like a massaging of it every single day, I think so talking about that then.
Speaker 3:So we obviously see linkedin is huge now when it comes to the world of recruitment, how do you think recruiters should be leveraging the likes of linked LinkedIn or social media in general to help with their BD efforts?
Speaker 2:Oh, like it has to be built in. Yeah, it just it has to be. And this is the thing, right, you don't have to be an influencer, right, you don't have to be seen doing all of this crazy content. But one thing that we know LinkedIn favors is consistency. So, whether that's one or two posts a week, but I think it's just developing that warmth and familiarity and, even if you're not actively posting, having a profile that is strongly keyworded and filled out so that you're searchable and that you are coming up at the top of searches and using it just to make that initial connection with people, like I think we're so lucky to have a tool now where we can just go like, hey, I'm here, hey, I'm here, I'm here, I am going to call you at some point.
Speaker 2:But this is a little bit about what I do, like selling without really selling, selling by osmosis, and so I think it's really important and it doesn't mean that you have to be on LinkedIn all day, every day. You don't need to become an influencer in your market unless you really enjoy that. But I think a consistent effort of connecting with your market and being involved in community in some sort on LinkedIn is, like, absolutely essential and you know, for people in you know, labor, hire, recruitment or blue collar, like that's one of the fastest growing networks on linkedin. But there are also other social media places to find them and I see a lot of my clients branching out now into tiktok and you know, instagram, and having success with those platforms. I've never had to, or you know my market doesn't sit there, but I think it's important to explore, like where your demographic is as well, and and use those tools because those are the ones that can be most effective for you do you see there being like an optimum amount?
Speaker 3:we talk about that a lot is it every? Day. Is it because before I joined x recruiter, honestly I didn't do much on there. Um, what do you, what do you see? What's the kind of the?
Speaker 2:is a perfect number. I it's. It feels like it's a locked away secret. Okay, like linked. Like LinkedIn, if someone from LinkedIn is listening like tell me what it is.
Speaker 3:I used to work at LinkedIn and I don't even know. Oh yeah, of course you did.
Speaker 2:That's right. So the algorithm feels like a mystery because I have people post you know clients of mine that post a couple of times a week and they get really good engagement and they have people who post every day and you think that the engagement would be higher, but it's not. So I think it comes down to content. I think I would say in an ideal world, you're posting two to three times a week.
Speaker 2:Okay, you know I think that keeps you top of people's news feeds, it keeps a level of engagement with your network and it means that people are seeing you regularly. But with that, you also need to be connecting with people. You need to be out there commenting, liking Like. You need to be out there commenting, liking like. You need to be massaging the network as well, um, but, and, and utilizing your 100 connections a week, especially if you're, if you're not, on a premium account, because that's really your database, that's where your network is. Yeah, um, but yeah two. I say two because a lot of people we can't even get them to be consistent at one. Okay, I think, ideally three you know what I it?
Speaker 1:It's interesting. I post a fair bit on LinkedIn and I used to post every day. I'd get a certain amount of traction and I thought if I post double, maybe I'll get double the traction. I posted double and I got less engagement than just my five posts the week prior to my whole 10 posts that next week and it just died as soon as you start posting two times a day.
Speaker 2:That's really interesting. I've seen the same. I have started posting every day for the last few months and I think my engagement is lower than when I was posting three times a week. So, I don't know, there's something around that.
Speaker 1:We definitely don't do it twice a day. No, it'll die.
Speaker 2:People are just getting sick of seeing me in their newsleture again. She's got something else to say. But I also think with LinkedIn and it's something that I try and remind people is that like, just because people aren't clicking like doesn't mean they're not seeing it right. So if you're using it for like background bd, just getting your name out there, if you're constantly measuring it by the likes, it's going to deter you because you can't figure it out why some things land and some things don't, and I think that is what makes people go okay. Well, this post bombed, it got, and I did a post this morning. It got six likes.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm like okay, like wasn't in everyone's wheelhouse thank you um, just go and dig it out. Um, but, and I think that's what det I'll find it.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'll like it too. That's eight, just go and dig it out. Yeah, but and I think that's what deters people whereas actually it's your impressions the engagement, as long as it's being shown in people's feeds, it's doing what it needs to do for you to take the conversation to the next step.
Speaker 3:I think, okay, are there any techniques that you have now that maybe you didn't have early on, that you wish you had Any kind of frameworks or methodologies, any way of thinking even?
Speaker 2:That's such a great one. I would say one of the main ones was a bit of a framework for handling objections.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I just was like I had no idea, because I came into recruitment I started as a resourcer so candidate side and then became a consultant. So I didn't come from a sales background and I'd never been trained on any like real sales processes methodology.
Speaker 2:And I had never really been taught to handle objections, and so I was the classic like, oh okay, thanks, bye you know and you just like crumble, you know, and you just like crumble, um, and I think that having something structured earlier would have been so fundamental to just being able to take conversations further. I think that's one of the biggest things. And then also, you know, things have just evolved so much from a technical, technological perspective that you didn't have half the tools you know, that we have now, so that that would have made a big difference.
Speaker 3:We'll definitely get into objection handling later.
Speaker 1:I'm keen to go through objection handling soon. So we've spoken about prospecting. That all makes a lot of sense. What about, like discovery? You know, when you have finally got a prospect on the hook and you're talking to them and you're trying to uncover an opportunity, figure out if you guys are aligned, if there's an actual job there. How do you kind of handle once you are engaged to like have meaningful conversations, go through the discovery process and get more engagement from the client?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a great question and I was thinking about this because I was like what do people like to talk about? And I'm like people really like talking about what they don was like what do people like to talk about? And I'm like people really like talking about what they don't like, right, they really, you know, you say to you know a candidate in an interview, you know what do you want in your role. You'll get loads of buzzwords. You say what do you really not want? That's when you get into it.
Speaker 2:And so I think the questions one, they need to be open and I think actually we're not in day-to-day life we speak in closed question a lot. We want definitive answers, right. So it's a very different, I guess, technique in a sales call to always make sure that your questions are really open and that they're eliciting a response and that the person needs to answer more than the yes or no. So I think that's really important. But then really actually asking people like what are your challenges? Like, what are the struggles? What are you not connecting with in your recruitment process?
Speaker 2:Like in an ideal world, what would it look like, you know, if you had one gripe? What would it be Like actually workshopping those types of things with people, because I think that's when people really open up and they're like talking people like a little complaint and they're like someone validating as well that it's tough and so, rather than coming in with the assumption of, like you must struggle with X, y and Z, it's just like well, how does it feel for you? You know, on a scale of one to 10, recruiting for a role is one painful 10, amazing. Where do you sit, why? So I would say you know getting people to talk about their gripes is is way more successful than trying to get them to talk about what they like I like that, I like the discovery phase about the process you know, because then you've got, you know, three points.
Speaker 2:If they say seven to really dig into, yeah, yeah, that's good and I think in that you then find out what potentially the opportunities are um and you'll get more information, naturally, around the last time they recruited, when they're likely to recruit again, because you can start to sound that stuff out without it coming across pitchy.
Speaker 1:I think what's like the golden question, the kryptonite, the silver bullet? That always gets some sort of meaningful connection between you and the prospect.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, the one question. Something I always ask is if you had no holds barred to budget red tape anything like. What does your ideal recruitment process look like?
Speaker 3:The nirvana, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like if you're hiring for your team and you you could spend whatever money, do whatever, get the best talent available, like what does that look? Like what?
Speaker 1:is the most common response to that.
Speaker 2:The most common response to that. Oh, people are like, oh, I'd be paying da da, da, da da, I'd be able to hire people from Apple, amazon, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. And then it's like, okay, cool. So if that's like the ideal, then what do you guys currently do and where are the challenges with that? So I think you can then pull it back to what their actual expectations are. But it's nice to talk to people about their wish list. You know it's like oh the dream.
Speaker 1:And then it's like and now reality. Yeah, it's awesome. What does reality look like? Yeah, what about framing up like a discovery, a job brief, some sort of initial meeting with a client? How do you stop it from just being a full-blown sales pitch about how amazing you are and how many candidates you've got in your database and how to be more of that approach it in like a trusted advisor type of persona? Do you have any secret sauce around that?
Speaker 2:Like to get the meeting. You've got the meeting. You've got the meeting.
Speaker 1:Now you're going through this discovery and, instead of just like verbal, vomiting on them about how good you are, how do you approach it to make sure that you're getting all the information you need without just being becoming too sassy, pushy? You know, give me the job, I've got the candidate, I'm going to send it to you, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay. So the first thing is, I think it's really understanding the brief. So I, my whole you know I don't talk about myself at all until I've got all the information and I know what to tailor it to. And and funny story with this, because in my first recruitment role I went out in a meeting with the global one of the global directors for the business I work for and I thought I nailed it in the job. You know I was there and I'm like telling them everything they need to know about our agents, like everything. And you know we come out of this meeting. She's like, how do you go? And I'm like, oh, I feel like I told them everything, I nailed it, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she's like you told them everything and they glazed over about five, 10 minutes in and you were still going because nothing was tailored to what they actually needed to know. And so what I do when I'm in like a job briefing or that kind of pitch meeting with a client is that I'm just all I'm writing down is things that I know I could fix right. And so when it gets to talking about me, yeah, I'll give them a brief overview of our agency.
Speaker 2:And one thing I really like doing as well is talk about why I'm in recruitment and why I chose my agency, because I think that brings some heart to it. People like to hear actually some insight from you that is a bit more authentic. But then the way I will structure it with them is like okay, you mentioned this, this is how we would work with you on that particular area. You mentioned this. This is how we could work with you on this.
Speaker 2:Here are some examples of what we've done with clients. So taking it away from like I am this and I've done this, it's like this is what we have done with someone else. Here's some tangible facts, some examples, some statistics, and one thing I always encourage people to do when they're going out to like a pitch meeting or a job briefing meeting is take a case study. So then again, it's not just hearsay of like we do this and this and this and this is an agency. It's like here is an example of how we supported a similar client to you and this was the process that we walked through to get them to that point, and I think that speaks so much louder that action as opposed to like your feelings on how you are.
Speaker 3:I was going to ask about how you, when you have a client who's pretty vague about their needs or requirements, how you really bring them in line. Is it a bit of a case study approach or how would you address that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, see, that's you know you get it all the time. Oh, it's on the job, brief, and it's often as well when you're not dealing with like the actual hiring manager, isn't it like?
Speaker 1:it can be.
Speaker 2:You're dealing with someone in HR like it's Chinese whispers the job's been passed down, there's a JD, no one knows much about the context, um, so I always try and obviously speak to the person who is hiring the role or that that role is going to report to and, you know, frame that in a way of like I really want to bring this to life and something I as well frame out with clients when I'm doing that job brief, so that we try and avoid that vagueness is like my job is to not find you people that you could find by placing an ad today. Right, my job is to be able to go out there and headhunt and approach the 83 percent of the Australian workforce that is passive, that aren't applying to roles. So to do that, I need specifics on why someone would want this job and I need to really be able to bring it to life and sell it. And so, one, I need way more than a JD to do that. But but two, I really need to understand from you what's like the absolute essential criteria.
Speaker 2:You know, like do not put someone in front of me unless they have this, this and this, and then what's the desirable off the back of that and then I'll you know. Then I'll work to expand that a little bit. So if they had this but not this, can I still put them in front of you? How about this but not this? What would that look like? Okay, what about all of this, but at this salary? So I try and like expand the brief then as much as I can, but you need to be in person. I think yeah, especially with a new client. You know it's so much harder to do that over the phone and you know if, if a client won't, if a client flicks you over a JD on email and won't even give you the time of day on the phone call, for me it's I just I wouldn't work the job yeah, and I jumped across a job um job briefs there.
Speaker 3:No, that's perfect segue. Yeah, we'll keep, we'll keep going. I actually thought I was like fuck, that's smooth yeah, I was like this is my moment to take over again. Um, so again, I mean, you've explained a little bit there and I used to work on that same methodology just expand the job, brief things that aren't on the job description. Um, how do you train consultants to to think like that, because that's like just commercial acumen, just just questions, or is there a set process of framework you have to help them expand it out?
Speaker 2:yeah, I was thinking about this because I don't I've never worked with like a set framework for that, and I know there's frameworks that you can use there's spin and there's care and there's these kind of like sales frameworks that you can use but for me, I think it was always just about being really interested and being like if I want to bring this to life for a candidate and I want to paint the story of what it's going to feel and look like to work there, then that's what my questions have to be around. And so you know, what I really try and bring out of clients is like, because I'm a big fan of behavioral-based interviewing, right um, big fan. Don't think it's used very well. I think what is that?
Speaker 2:Interviewing candidates based on past behaviours? So you know, like there's that classic thing like HR interviews of like tell me about a time when, but doing it in a really smart, consultative way of like okay, can you give me an example in your career so far where you haven't run to time on a project, right, and you didn't finish at the deadline? Like what did that mean to you? How did that look for you? Like actually really pulling out, like how they behave, rather than getting them to talk about their skillset, and so I'm really passionate about doing that with candidates, and so that's something that I try and do with clients in the job briefing of like I can see the skills on the JD. Tell me about the behaviors Like someone who, how does someone behave in this role? How do you want them to be, how do you want them to respond to things? You know, if I was going to ask them three questions, that would pull out some key behaviors like what would they be? And so I think, rather than using a framework, I really try and just have more of a consultative approach, and I think, again, coming back to what I said, earlier.
Speaker 2:Another thing I try and do with clients is like what don't you want? Because it's far easier, because all they're going to say when you say you know, what do you want, it's like we want a good culture fit, we want someone who's engaged, we want them to be motivated. You know we get these buzzwords where it's actually saying like what don't you want? What hasn't worked in this role before? You know, what do you think really would work well? What behaviors do you want someone to have demonstrated in past roles?
Speaker 2:They can't refer that back to a JD, you know they can't say, oh, look at the JD for that, because I'm not asking about skills, I'm asking about the person and I think having that really inquisitive nature that takes confidence and that takes time. So I'm sure there are frameworks that work really well when you're new to recruitment and you need a bit more structure. But I think just being interested like what's the person rather than what's the job, you know, I think that that's maybe a mindset shift it's a thing that I think we've all been guilty of.
Speaker 3:you know, particularly early in your career, go and take a job brief, and you just've all been guilty of. You know, particularly early in your career, go and take a job briefing. You just listen, take it all down and you know that's probably not paying enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're nodding dog. Yep, yep, yep. Sounds, great. So how do?
Speaker 3:you as a recruiter or when you're coaching recruiters, how do you help them be able to articulate that you're not paying enough, or you know how does that kind of conversation go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so cause. Yeah, this is. I was actually talking about this last week. It's like you sit there and you're like, yeah, brilliant, brief.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's great, I'm going to get cracking on it straight away and then you get off the phone and you're like what an absolute doozy. Like yeah, and then you know the client's like no, I don't. I feel like you can't find what I'm looking for because you can't find it because we haven't consulted to them upfront. So, number one absolutely. If you think that there is something unfillable about a role, you've got to tell the client right then and there and you need to give them tangibles. Like I think everything with this, if you want to build trust with people, you've got to give them actuals. So you know, if, for example, salary was too low, I would say okay, I need to give you some feedback on the salary.
Speaker 2:The last five roles that we've recruited for clients within your field at this, this is exactly what they've paid. This is the level of experience we hired for each of those. With that in context of your role, it's going to make it very hard for me to get what you're looking for. What I think I could get for that salary is this how does that sound? How does that look? Okay, if not that, is there something we can pull out of the essentials and make it more of a desirable so that if I find it great, but if I don't, we're not kind of set to that. So I think it's that consultation piece.
Speaker 2:But what clients want are facts and stats and tangible examples that are true again, rather than just our opinion, Like we don't think it's paying enough. It's like, well, that might be your opinion. Let me go and ask another recruiter.
Speaker 3:So I think they need the examples to to really to believe you it's probably worth having those, those responses in just in your toolkit, like saying I'm gonna go away. I think we might be under market value if I come back in two or three days, and it's what I thought. Are you open to having a conversation about moving it?
Speaker 2:I think those conversations are always worthwhile having up front totally especially if it's a new client and you haven't got that trust with them yet. Yeah, you know they're doing everything. You know they're taking you at face value, sure, but there's always that underlying current of like can this person deliver? And so you've got to be upfront about your ability. And it's also okay to walk away from a job if you don't think it's fillable.
Speaker 2:I think we collect jobs, don't we? Like magpies collecting silver. It's like the more jobs we have on, the better it looks and the better it feels, Whereas actually, if you've got five A-grade jobs on, that's all you need. But if you've got 10 Bs and a few Cs and a few reverse markets floating around, you're pushing yourself for time, You're working on less quality, You're less likely to fill them, your conversion rate's lower Like that's when we see people get burnt out in this industry. So I would always encourage consultants to say thank you so much, I don't think I can find what you're looking for. Please come back to me if the parameters change. And I think you know we need to be training newer recruiters to have that level of confidence to be able to walk away and not just stockpile jobs, because it makes us look like we're going to be successful.
Speaker 3:So if there was one piece of advice to give a recruiter who's, you know, picking up a lot of jobs, taking a lot of job briefs, would it be that, or would it be something else?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it would, I think to one, really communicate your process. I think that's a big one for me, and I was thinking about this on the way over because I'm like it's not that you've always got to have like a billion points of difference. I think this is the thing. Your process might be very similar to your competitors, but it's how you communicate and articulate it to a client and can you really walk a client through it step by step and, you know, really use that as a way of justifying your fees. I think that's really important, Like from start to finish.
Speaker 2:This is how we will recruit this role for you. You know, how are the other recruiters that you've spoken to or working with? How have they laid out that process for you? Because they probably haven't right. We just go, yep, okay, I'll get cracking and I'll be in touch in a couple of days. So I think one is really laying out the process and I think two is and this takes time but trusting that there is more work out there, Because I think that bleeds into how you show up, how you consult, your ability to push back, like everything in the recruitment process. If you are panic buying, you're always going to end up under value, and I think you've got to, and you know that needs to come from management too. But you've got to back yourself to go. There's an opportunity cost if I work on this, yeah, and I just I'm going to say no and I want to go and find what that opportunity cost is, because I've now got the time to do so.
Speaker 1:Perfect. Perfect. Segue into objection handling.
Speaker 2:Yes, so, laura, it's my favorite what?
Speaker 1:is the most common objection and how do you overcome?
Speaker 2:it. So I ask this in any of my trainings with objection handling right and people come alive. They can't get the words out quick, they're all talking over each other. I get this objection, this objection, this objection. It's like you want to wake a room up of recruiters up, ask them what objections they get right. So obviously one of the most common is like we've got another recruiter that we use and we're happy.
Speaker 2:And so one thing that I really stress is that you can't handle every objection, and the example I give to people I'm training is I'm a one woman band. Right, I'm always going to be. I work three days a week. I look after my daughter the other two days. I don't want to grow my business. I don't want to manage people anymore. It suits me perfectly. So if a recruiter called me tomorrow to sell me a trainer, the answer is no and the objection is I don't want or need anyone right Now. They're not going to be able to change that right.
Speaker 2:So some objections are valid. It's not your job to fix every objection up front. It's your job to test the validity of it, and so it's your job to explore it. But before we explore it, what you've got to do is acknowledge it and validate it. So I always work with people on this framework of like you get this objection right, it's, we've got other recruiters right. The first thing we should be saying to people is that's awesome that you have found a recruiter that works for you, because I know that can be hard to come by right. Immediately the client feels validated, they feel acknowledged, they feel listened to, the stress level lowers and they might be more open to more of a conversation. Right.
Speaker 2:But what we often hear is people getting immediately on the defense of like oh okay, but what about? But what about, what about? So we've just got to chill at the front end and then what I say to people is cool. The next thing you've got to do is just explore the objection further. So you've just got to see if you can get the rapport back right. So you just ask some non-challenging questions how long have you worked with them? What do you like about them? What type of roles do they support you with? Just a bit of fact, finding open questions. See if you can get that engagement and conversation going again.
Speaker 2:If at that point the client's cutting you off, shutting you down, like, just let it end, right, you can call back another time, you can add some value another way, you can try another angle. But I think we've got to use our emotional intelligence to recognize, like, if we're actually creating a dead end. If the person opens back up, then the next stage is to start to challenge that objection and what you're trying to do is just find the chink in the armor in it, right? So it's just like what would happen if? What would happen if that recruiter left the agency? Would you still work with the agency?
Speaker 2:What happens if you just have a terrible recruit and they're not finding what you're looking for? What do you do if that person is on leave? What happens if? So? It's these. What happens if questions? It's to start to challenge it and then you can start to offer solutions to that. And I always say, especially if it's like a first conversation, a second conversation, you don't know the person well yet. Your solutions should just be softly, softly, Like have you thought about meeting with someone to have a bit of a benchmarking review, to see what our service would look like or to make sure that you're getting best in market? You know, if you thought about having a backup provider just there in the wings. Have you thought about having someone additional to help on those harder to fill roles? So not trying to just go, we're better, but just like, how could we potentially start building the relationship? So it's that acknowledge, validate, explore and then try and find the chink in the arm I really love that.
Speaker 3:That, um, your job is to explore the validity of it is really, really cool. Um, and I was always trained that the first objection is never the real objection. No, so how often do you kind of say, okay, you deal with that, put that aside. What else is that part of your framework? Do you keep going to get more objections out of them, or do you try and just address that one? That's?
Speaker 2:such an interesting point and I I don't actually in my trainings I don't kind of take it to that next stage because I guess what I'm trying to do is just getting them over this first hump. But I think what I try and do is bring the prospect round to meeting with me.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, and then that's when I might explore things further. So it's like you know, have you considered, would you like a benchmarking? Okay, great, with all of that in mind, how about I come out and do that and we can just chat in a little bit more detail? There's obviously no commitment, but it might just make you feel validated in yeah, I do have the best recruiter in the market or it might make you go, huh, this person actually has something else they can offer me. Maybe I want to run that person alongside. So for me, it's all about trying to get that in, as opposed to bringing it back around to the objection. But I really like that because it's like OK, cool, let's just keep knocking them down.
Speaker 3:We used to isolate it, move it along isolate it and eventually get to one. That's probably the reason. But I love that concept of the validity, because, yeah, it really underlines that.
Speaker 2:And I think it takes the pressure off for recruiters. It's like you know, you hear in like old school sales training, like your job. You can fix every objection you can't. Some of them are real. They're real objections. There's a reason, there's an actual reason that you can't provide a solution for and that's part of your job in qualifying Not every prospect is going to be right for you.
Speaker 1:I was always taught that you should have at least four to five objections for your first call before you can actually take a job brief. Really, if you don't have four to five objections that you're trying to have to overcome, then you're probably just seeking to.
Speaker 3:I'd be exhausted after about three.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I used to sit there and, oh yeah, no, we're not using recruiters. Oh really, why are you not using recruiters? Oh yeah, no, really, you know what are the costs. Blah, blah, blah. Oh nah, you know what? We've got a C-Cat up. Oh okay, so talk to me about the C-Cat. Are you getting the right people? And then you'd get to like four or five and you'd be like all right, I'm real close.
Speaker 2:Well, I've been thinking my old job wasers, just like not most. I don't want to generalize a lot of recruiters don't even don't have a framework to get over the first one. You know it's such a tricky part and as part of my role over the last seven years, I spent a lot of time with people at their desks, listening to their business development calls and giving them real-time coaching, and I love that because I think you can really work with actual information as opposed to theory. And you do. You hear people crumble. It's like that moment they get an objection. It's just like All right, fair enough.
Speaker 1:All right, catch you later, Bye Okay cool.
Speaker 2:Thanks Bye. You just see the life's been sucked out of them. So I think even just having a way to keep the conversation going, seeing if you can bring things back to a conversation, if for most people it feels like a win, you know, and gives that confidence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so, lastly, on objections, what's the one piece of advice that you can give a recruiter to avoid when trying to objection handle?
Speaker 2:What's the?
Speaker 1:one thing they need to just stop doing.
Speaker 2:Immediately defending it, like immediately just combating it. Give me an example Like we don't use agencies and they just come back in oh, so you never use agency. You know that kind of instant defense, closed question and then all the client has to do is go nope, we never use agencies and you've got nowhere else to go. So you've got to just take a moment to pause, step back and then try and just ask some more questions, and I think often people don't take that moment to breathe and I think you've got to practice them.
Speaker 1:Have you ever heard of feel felt found? Yes, that's really common. Yeah, I got trained on that. Yeah, I just used to use feel felt found with every objection.
Speaker 1:So if someone said we don't use agencies, the first thing I would do is make up a story. Oh yeah, I had a client that I just placed with them. They were feeling the same way because their boss was like we don't use agencies and what they found was that when they did open their mind to using an agency, it was actually way cheaper than doing it themselves. And blah, blah, blah, and you just kind of go through, feel, felt found, and then you just pause again and see what they have to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're too expensive yeah my last client said that they're really expensive, and what we found was when they went through the process and you just try and keep them on a loop until, until you've four objections in, and then they go oh and then they go just all right, come down.
Speaker 1:I used to go so hard with feel, felt, found and trying to overcome four to five objections that once I would get the engagement they would give me the job, the job brief. I would have to then pause and go. Now I know I've just taken a job brief, but what I've found was after taking the job brief, the clients would never actually pick up the phone again, and they just gave me the job brief because I wouldn't get off the phone.
Speaker 2:So can I get?
Speaker 1:your commitment that, now that I'll go away and find this, that you'll actually pick up the phone and let me recruit this role.
Speaker 3:How did that go?
Speaker 1:Yes, mate. Well, I used to get 10 jobs on and they would all fall over. And then I'd be like why are they all falling over? I'm getting these job orders, what's going on? I'm like, all right, I'm just going to have to go get the normal job order and then pitch them and say my experience is, you'll never actually answer my phone again after this job order.
Speaker 3:So, can.
Speaker 2:I get your commitment and then they're like yeah, probably not, mate. I'm like all right, so this is just a fake job.
Speaker 1:He's like yeah, man, I just didn't know what else to tell you I just had to get you off the phone, so I gave you the job. Yeah, it was an interesting time actually.
Speaker 3:Tough, tough gig. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But on that, I mean, I used to love fee negotiation because I would always feel like this is an opportunity for me to do my tips or strategy. Do you have around people or coaching people to hold their fee position?
Speaker 2:Okay. So I'm going to have to really not rant about this, right, Because I'm very passionate about fees discounting, recruiters holding their value, and I just wish every recruiter, in Australia at least, would just say no, and then we wouldn't end up in this situation that we're in, where people are working for eight and 10% with six month money back guarantees, and I think it comes down to just genuinely not believing in the value that you offer and maybe not really understanding how to fully articulate and communicate your process and I talk a lot about process, but I think it's the fundamental that drives your confidence and your ability to sell and so I think for a lot of people, they have to believe that they're worth that fee and that they genuinely have to believe that that fee is valid. Because if they in the back of their mind think, well, yeah, I think 25 grand is a bit steep fee is valid. Because if they in the back of their mind think, well, yeah, I think 25 grand is a bit steep.
Speaker 2:It's like then it's self-fulfilling because you're always going to drop them. And I think another thing I see people do all the time is default straight to their manager. You know, I'm going to have to go away and have a chat with my manager about that. What you've done then is two things. One, you've basically told them you're going to give them a fee reduction, right, there's no negotiation. And two, what you've done is say I don't have authority. And so, even if you do have to go away and speak to your manager, I think what you've got to do in that moment is really sound out.
Speaker 2:I call it like the four Ws. It's like why do they believe that a fee reduction is necessary for them? What do they want it to look like? What's in it for you and where could you potentially meet in the middle? And so what I always try and do with people is say, like a fee negotiation is a negotiation. It's not client asks and you give. It should be like okay, cool, if you want that. Well, what's the opportunity in this for me? What would be the impact on my desk? You know, where can we maybe negotiate Like okay, if you want a reduction on the fee, do we maybe look at reduction on the replacement period. You know, you take all this information and then you say to the client I'm going to have to go away, benchmark this against my other clients and what. I'm going to have to go away, benchmark this against my other clients and what I'm forecasting over the next six months and see whether it's actually, you know, whether it's viable for me to work this role for you and I will come back to you. Now.
Speaker 2:If you have to get your manager, then fine, but I think we just don't hold our own enough and it's just this immediate default to someone more senior and it sets such the wrong tone for the relationship because it basically says, when anything gets hard, I don't have the ability to make decisions. Yeah, um, yeah, I'm really, really passionate about this yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we used to get told we weren't allowed to go to our manager and we used to really have to hold your position so so firm um. But there has been times where I've seen and I'm sure we all have here where you know you run through your process and you say your fear and they go okay, because you've outlined it so well. Is that how you see best practice like?
Speaker 2:in an ideal world? Yeah, it's in person. You know you've taken this really great brief and you know you've talked through your process and you've really outlined, outlined, outlined, how you're going to work with them effectively, how you're going to get results. You've given them a case study. Like you've done all of this In an ideal world. The client goes, yep.
Speaker 2:Something I am seeing people do more and more now which I think is working really well as a model, is actually developing models of like you know you call it like gold, silver or bronze right, and actually having different offerings like gold, silver or bronze, right, and actually having different offerings. So, rather than saying like this is the offering and this is the fee for it, it's like, well, you can have gold, which is gonna cost you this, this is what's included. You can have silver, you can have bronze, where do you wanna play? And the client feels like they've got some control and decision-making power and then they get to see exactly what is included when you run a premium service versus your standard contingent. Yeah, but I think it comes down for most people it's a lack of belief that they're worth the fee.
Speaker 1:You said something really interesting before around. They don't see the value in their own fee and maybe that's why they discount it. This actually really clicked for me. It probably clicked for me when I first started my agency, maybe eight years ago, and the reason why I asked you about rec2rec is because you speak to a lot of recruitment agency owners and a lot of the time you'll go will you pay 20k for a recruiter? No way you know. Why wouldn't you?
Speaker 1:I'm not paying recruitment fees. You're like why that's what you do, though. Like why can't you justify a fee for someone to help you find someone in your business if that's what you actually do? So where do you see the value in your own fees and in your own service and a lot of the conversations that I have, there's actually a lot of recruiters that would never justify paying a fee to find someone for their own business because they don't see the value in it and it's almost a little bit contradictory to what they actually are doing for other people. So when you say they don't see the value in their own fee, that's probably.
Speaker 1:I think one of the biggest issues is they're just doing it for whatever they can get away with it and they're not actually seeing what the impact of that fee and that hire will make in a business. And until you start thinking about the impact of the hire and not the fee, then you can start going gee, it's 20 grand for this person that's going to bring in a million dollars worth of business over the next 12 months. Why are they trying to get me down to 10%, like this is ridiculous. So I thought I'd just thread that in there while it was top of mind.
Speaker 2:It's so interesting and you know something that I just thought about whilst you were talking that as well, because, like, let's say, it's a 25 grand fee, I think what often we do is put that in the context of what 25 grand looks like in our own bank accounts versus a company that potentially is making multi, multi millions, right.
Speaker 2:And so we're taking it in context of like, well, 25 grand's a shit ton of money like to have in your own bank account, like I can't be charging people. That it's like you're not charging that person, that you're charging this organization, that who are used to dealing in these types of numbers, and I think that's a real mindset shift for people. It's like we're not, you're not taking that. For the person that is negotiating in front of you, it's coming out of a business budget cost strategy that hopefully has been accounted for, and that's very, very different, like it's a commercial fee, not something that you're being asked you know for that person to take out their bank account and put in yours yeah, something I learned as I when I left recruitment, thinking you know, 40, 50k fees are good fees.
Speaker 3:Going into a world where you're talking millions and you're like it's a rounding error for these guys but talent is the single biggest thing that they all care about. So it's that. It is that mindset shift. So if you had like one bit of advice or given you're so passionate about this area, one takeaway that anyone listening should have regarding fee negotiation or fees or holding your position, what would that be?
Speaker 2:okay. So for recruiters, it's like you've got to believe your process. You've got to believe you don't even have to believe that you're better than everyone else. We have to believe that you're as good and that you're worth the your, the work that you do is worth that fee and you have to be confident to walk away.
Speaker 2:I think and you have to know that, okay, if I work at this, there's a huge opportunity cost. If I do that over the course of a year, every single time, how much money am I actually losing in my own pocket? I think, for agency owners, it's got to be to back your people, you know, to actually say to them I don't want you to discount. We to be to back your people, you know, to actually say to them I don't want you to discount, we will find other work, we'll work on a strategy to pick up more jobs. I don't want you to have 10 jobs on it 10%. I want you to have three jobs on it 18, 20%. You know, and I think it needs to come from leadership down give people the permission to say no, I want a desk that is majority full fee. I want to be maximizing every single assignment that I work on.
Speaker 1:You put that across really, really well. So we spoke about BD, prospecting, qualifying job orders, objection handling, fees. What's the one thing, what's the one key takeaway a recruiter should get from this podcast? All of it.
Speaker 3:Fees I'm going to say the same thing again.
Speaker 2:Summarizing it in one thing, I think, oh goodness, I feel like we've really covered a lot. I definitely, and I think anyone who's worked with me would know this, so they might laugh. But it comes down to really knowing what your process is and knowing how to articulate that and sell it, because then it becomes a conversation and a consultation with clients as opposed to fluffy pitches, and I think that is also in you understanding that, from a confidence and mindset perspective, totally changes the way that you show up in your conversations too.
Speaker 1:Beautiful, so understand your process. Yeah, articulate it well Back, beautiful, so understand your process, yeah.
Speaker 2:Articulate it well, back it, give examples of it. Yeah, Beauty.
Speaker 1:I love that. Now are we ready for our game.
Speaker 2:Oh God.
Speaker 1:This is the bit you've been dreading.
Speaker 3:Don't worry, I'll lose this one deliberately. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, who wants to be a millionaire music? Which of the following is not a crm? Loxo, talent stream, bullhorn, zoho, recruit ed so her recruit talent stream correct all right, it's one nil which. Which Will Ferrell movie features the quote? If you ain't first?
Speaker 3:you're last Ed Talladega Nights.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:You are a movie buff? Well, it's beginning to seem like that, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just remember quotes. Question number three it's one all. I wouldn't mind being a game show host.
Speaker 2:You did a good job. You're really revenue. Yeah, yeah, which you did a good job, you're really revenue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Which country has the largest staffing market by revenue? A, uk, B. Usa, c. Germany, d, australia.
Speaker 3:Laura USA, I would have gone USA as well Got it yes. I was tempted just to do it halfway through Got it I was going to go straight up front with that as well.
Speaker 1:We were going to wait for the multiple choice. I didn't want to Okay, so it's 2-1. Okay, here we go, Game on. What is a common challenge when recruiting blue-collar workers? There's going to be a lot, isn't there? A lack of job boards. B high candidate turnover. C overqualified candidates. D high salary expectations. I think that was Laura, was it? You're more confident? B it was B High candidate turnover. Yeah, congratulations, you just beat me. That was three.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you won it I thought we were entertaining. No, it's best of five. I think Best of five. Oh okay, I think we need another one because we buzzed at the same time.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's very fair.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that feels like a fake win for me. Okay, you are competitive, aren't you? It needs to be a slam dunk win. Yeah, yeah, michael Page and founded.
Speaker 1:Michael Page in 1976. A. Steve Adder, B Bill McGregor, Ed Bill. Mcgregor, that's unfair to work, to Michael.
Speaker 3:Bagger. I knew it would come back to me.
Speaker 2:No, that's a fair win?
Speaker 1:I wouldn't have won it anyway. No, it's three all Okay, three all Okay. This is the tiebreaker, this is the winner. That's fair. This is the winner.
Speaker 2:But I did win first.
Speaker 1:but yeah, so it's one win to Laura, two wins to you today, which would be really upsetting. What percentage of senior or executive roles are not advertised publicly? A, 25%, b, 40%, c, over 50%, d, 10%, ed, c.
Speaker 3:Correct, did you know that one. Well, it had to be the highest amount, didn't it, because those exec roles are just like headhunting and all that kind of stuff. Congratulations, it was a draw.
Speaker 2:I think it was a fair, but I'll take the win. I wasn't going to go with that.
Speaker 1:Laura's having a shot of whiskey. Oh God, I'm cycling home Just do half a glass, not a full glass this time.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, it can't be a full half a glass.
Speaker 3:I feel bad making I feel somebody bad making something to do your face. I had to do one at 10 am this morning.
Speaker 2:Did you? Yeah, you're lucky. I like a whiskey, so this is actually very pleasant.
Speaker 3:Leave the bottle Easy.
Speaker 1:That was easy.
Speaker 3:That was almost like a prize Me this morning I was like.
Speaker 2:I think I won actually.
Speaker 1:Excellent, that was really good, Awesome Okay so we've got one final segment, the diary of a recruiter, and so what we do here is someone has asked you a question in this diary. You've got to answer the question and then write a question for the next guest.
Speaker 2:So do I answer it out loud.
Speaker 1:Yes, read it out loud, answer it out loud.
Speaker 2:So the question is if you were being recruited oh my God, this is such a great question If you were being recruited by yourself, what would you love and what would you hate? I think I would love my energy. I think I would like that level of enthusiasm that I bring. I think I would hate my perfectionism. Slash, overanalyzing, okay, something I always have to curb. It annoys me, so it would annoy me in hiring me. But sometimes it can be that thing of you know, just do the thing, stop looking at the thing, stop trying to be the thing, but really good question, just huge.
Speaker 3:Thank you for coming on. Oh, thanks for having me. You've been great If looking at the thing. Stop trying to be a thing. But really good question, just huge thank you for coming on. Oh, thanks for having me. You've been great. If anybody wants to get a hold of you, what's the best way to do it? Linkedin, linkedin, yeah.
Speaker 2:LinkedIn or email, but yeah, I love connecting with people on LinkedIn. It leads to such great chats and I feel like I love the sense of community. I get on there as well. Ask me anything, I'm always. I always say to people like you can pick my brains on anything, so awesome.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me. See ya, see ya.