Confessions of a Recruiter
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Confessions of a Recruiter
Mastering BD: HR Executive Search | COAR S1-EP7
Ever wondered how top-billing recruiters consistently hit their targets year after year? Adam Oldman, an executive HR recruiter from Sydney whose biggest year reached an impressive $1.58 million, breaks down exactly how he built and maintains his high-performance desk.
The foundation of Adam's success lies in his methodical approach to business development. Rather than simply chasing job ads (though he admits this was his starting point), he's evolved to focus on strategic leads and what he calls the "hot boss" approach - identifying a candidate's manager during interviews so when they resign, you already know who to connect with. This consultative approach has proven far more effective than cold calling, especially in HR recruitment where managers are constantly bombarded by recruiters.
What truly sets Adam apart is his commitment to retained recruitment over contingent work. "Why are recruiters working for free?" he questions, comparing recruitment to other professional services like real estate where payment is expected upfront. He shares practical advice for converting contingent clients to retained by demonstrating the superior value of a thorough, dedicated search process, which has not only improved his work quality but also increased his fees and client commitment.
Perhaps most valuably, Adam speaks candidly about experiencing burnout multiple times in his career. He describes burnout as the state where "what used to give you happiness doesn't give you happiness anymore," alongside physical symptoms and cynicism about work. His recovery strategies include taking proper breaks, healthy habits, and daily meditation - a practice he credits as transformative for both his career success and personal wellbeing.
Whether you're just starting in recruitment or looking to elevate your performance, Adam's insights on business development, client management, fee negotiation, and mental health offer a blueprint for sustainable success that withstands market fluctuations and personal challenges. Take your desk to the next level by implementing these proven strategies from one of Australia's top performers.
· Our Website is: xrecruiter.io
In this episode of Confessions of a Recruiter, we speak to Adam Oldman, an executive HR recruiter from Sydney. Adam's biggest year is $1.58 million. He's got an incredible way of how he goes about business development, taking job briefs, expanding the market. We also dive deep into mental health and how to make sure you can avoid burnout. If you're serious about business development and building a high-performance desk, then this episode you will not want to miss.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to Confessions of a Recruiter. We are joined by a legendary recruiter, Adam Oldman. Adam, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. Plenty of us here know about your background and your experience, but I might just hand it over to you and give you the floor for a few minutes just to tell the listeners a bit about your journey and how you got to this point.
Speaker 3:Yes, so I've been in recruitment for 10 years doing HR recruitment. I started in Australia, so before that I had all sales background. So 15 years of sales, you know, car rental, insurance, yeah, different types of sales ultimately um. Weird story actually. Years ago I went down to London to see James Kahn. He had a recruitment entrepreneur back in the day it was just after uni and they were saying, oh yeah, you can go into recruitment, you can make all these, this money and and you place all these roles.
Speaker 3:I just didn't understand it like. I was just like too, too young and they just didn't really explain it properly. So I sort of got exposed to it, then went to uni, carried on, lived abroad for for a little while, um, and then I came over to Australia my best friend was, uh, over here in in pharma and when I met Michael Page, my sort of old employer, um went for a, I think a medical sales role, and then they do the whole usual oh, have you ever thought about recruitment? Um, so, yeah, so at the time, you know, jumped into that, went straight into HR recruitment. Um sort of led their team there. I think we had five or six, at the peak maybe seven and then yeah moved to boutique and yeah been recruiting HR ever since.
Speaker 2:Nice. And did you choose HR, by the way, or did they just kind of put you in it?
Speaker 3:was just the desk that was available, but yeah, it's fitted quite well. Yeah, like I don't know if I would enjoy recruiting something very technical. Yeah, yeah, hr is a lot about culture. Fit right.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it was just what was available I mean lots of recruiters chase high performance, chase growth, get there and it's just not sustainable or they don't sustain it. But you've managed to do it year after year after year after year. So so what do you put that down to? Have you got any processes, systems, processes is a big one.
Speaker 3:Time management, definitely. I think the drive is just naturally in me. However, drive without no process or no systems is chaos, right. So I think Michael Page gave me some real solid foundations in training. I think the Page gave me some real solid foundations in training. I think the sales experience helped, because I was previously in quite hard sales roles. You know, like I've done door-to-door sales as well, back in the day in Liverpool in the winter, door-to-door sales is not fun, yeah. So I think the process, the training that they gave, the time management skills, all the coaching and you've been there, you know what it's like, what it used to be like yeah, so I think that the drive, I think also the hunger just to create a life here as well, Like I was literally creating a new life. When I came here, I had nothing really. I had a little bit in my back pocket, but I didn't have anything no friends, no apartment, nothing like that. So I think the drive processes, time management, patience, right.
Speaker 1:That's a really good segue into what we're talking about around BD as well. This season at the moment, we're all about business development, prospecting, how to build a desk. Essentially, when you've relocated to australia, started again, you've had to go through that natural determination of starting from scratch. Even though it's not a recruitment desk, it's still you know life starting from scratch right, specifically when you're getting into hr recruitment. The funny thing that I was reflecting on is most recruiters are taught to stay away from HR when you're prospecting. Are you the opposite? Are you prospecting into HR Like what do you?
Speaker 1:specifically do there.
Speaker 3:Well, hr is, I'll only talk to HR clients or HR candidates, right? And you know, talent acquisition would fall into that anyway. So, yeah, I would always talk to HR. There's no one else I'd need to talk to, whereas if you're recruiting procurement or tech or something, you might need the line managers. So I don't need line managers, which is different.
Speaker 3:But people think, oh, it must be so easy. Then it's actually the opposite, because those HR managers are getting hounded by all of the recruiters, whereas a tech line manager is probably not getting hounded by a procurement recruiter or a HR recruiter, right? And people think, oh, we'll start a HR desk and it'll light up my business. It doesn't, it's the opposite. You know like you can cause more issues. I was going to say you get it wrong. Yes, by doing that you ruin it for the company. Yeah, but going back to your point about starting, so I started a cold desk at Michael Page. So it was.
Speaker 3:Someone else had touched it a little bit, but it was more. Mine was more professional services, financial services or white collar, so I sort of built it from scratch anyway, and I don't know if you remember back then there wasn't a huge amount that came through the PSA. Like back then it was all ad chases for me, like I literally just built my business on ad chases. Yeah, um, and my old boss, who you know, uh, david cardi. He would always laugh because I'd be on the bus on the way and I'd be checking the ad chases every morning so I'd check what's come in, save them. Think of a candidate for for that, for that role. Oh, that's been re-advertised. I'm gonna fire them an email. They'll call them. You know, and I used to try and do, like what was it? Nine bd calls before nine or something at some point, you know so.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, you can build cold desks, but obviously it's a hustle, you know so how has your bd approach evolved from ad chasing on the bus to where you're at?
Speaker 3:today I was just saying. To add, it's changed every year really, but it's gone from ad chasing to leads to more floats, to be more consultative, using your candidates a bit more, having trust from your candidates and clients to say, oh do you know that they're recruiting over there or they're about to recruit? So it's just become a lot more trusting, consultative, rather than that hard bringing up ad chase. I've got this candidate for you. I'm not sure it works anymore. I don't know because I don't do a lot of that anymore. It might do in some markets, to be honest, in some real transactional markets, but I just feel like hiring managers get absolutely hounded for the ads since, like, they've put an ad out already, they've already paid for an ad and give it a few weeks and then maybe check in, you know. But so yeah, it's changed a lot. It's more and again it's more around.
Speaker 3:You know the posts on linkedin, the credibility there. You know floats. You know you've got to be very strategic with your floats. You know like mass floats don't agree with You're going to piss people off. You know work with a couple of candidates at a time, you know, in different niches and see who really could have opportunities for them and we can go deeper into that. But yeah, that's what.
Speaker 1:I'd say, okay, that um.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's what I'd say okay.
Speaker 1:So if you could only apply one bd strategy to get more leads, to get more clients, what would that strategy be and why?
Speaker 3:it would be leads, and I like either leads or or hot boss. We used to call them right. So if anyone doesn't know what hot boss is, it's you know when. When you're interviewing, you sort of know who their boss is. When they resign, you know who to connect with right. So you're looking at me like right. So basically it's just knowing who their boss is. So then when they do resign, you know who to connect with right.
Speaker 1:So there's that. So that would be your number one BD strategy.
Speaker 3:That, or just understanding leads. So when you're talking to your candidates, they're trusting in you. You know they're letting you know how they're going with a search. You're really helping them with their search. You know a big life decision and they can say, oh look, I've just interviewed there. I've just declined the role, uh, or I know that they're recruiting. You know why don't you? I've just spoke to them. I don't want the role, but why don't you see if they need help? You know so it's.
Speaker 2:I've always thought candidate management in hr recruitment would be so important because they have a slightly bad experience and they end up, as you know, an hr director somewhere else. They might just not use you. Yeah, and without going to the name of the client, that did happen at michael page. Someone had a bad experience as a candidate and it just locked an entire company down. Yeah, um, did you have a candidate management process? I know we're kind of still not talking about prospecting, but I think it's kind of intertwined.
Speaker 3:Candidate management process, not a specific process, no, but it's just a lot of. It is about just being commercial. Can I really help this person? Where am I going to put them? Where are they going to fit? Are they already in loads of processes already? Am I wasting their time, you know? So I think it's just about being commercial rather than having a process.
Speaker 3:Um, and you know, if I've got roles to recruit, and especially if they're retained, they take full, uh, first right, like compared to anything else. So I mainly talk to the roles for my, for my, for my candidates, for my roles. So, yeah, I don't really have a specific process, but when I see a good candidate, I'm all over them and I will try and do something with them. You know, I think and it might come into other questions, but you know, I think, as recruiters, this is just maybe a belief, but this is just maybe a belief, but this is my opinion I think we can be very reactive.
Speaker 3:If I meet a really great candidate today, oh okay, I've met you, you're great, I don't have a role for you, I'll speak to you in three or four months, like that's not how it should be. It should be like you're great, who do I know that I can connect you with when would you suit? So I think it's about being proactive. Can you create proactive conversations? And there'll be times where a quarter I might add a 50 or 100K from those introductions from strategic floats.
Speaker 1:I used to do a lot of that, so yeah, so how do you change and shift your mindset from the recruiter who's ad chasing being super transactional to then being more in tune with your conversations, to pick up when those leads or this hot boss, is that what it's called? Do you change your mind from a transactional recruiter, or your mindset, sorry, from a transactional recruiter to doing this like hot boss kind of leads, like where are you interviewing and then going to call that? Because for me I feel like I've heard that a lot but it's never. I've never executed on that. I've either forgotten or I haven't done it too good and then I've just kind of done what I've normally done in the past well, we were doing that when we were doing the ad chases.
Speaker 3:It was still in that era when we were at Page, when I first started right, and you know we used to have a whip. I used to do it with my team Monday and on Wednesday we had a sort of whiteboard. It sounds very like strict, but it was actually quite fun. So we had like sticky notes and it was like five or six sections and it'd be like, okay, what do you want to achieve from now to wednesday? What roles are you stuck with? How many leads have you got? How many bd calls have you made? Um? And then you know floating candidates, what top three candidates have you got? Or whatever um, so it was.
Speaker 3:It was like a process like that real sales environment, right? So I think I think it's creating that sales environment. So maybe for um people who just starting in recruitment, I think that really works. They need structure, they need process, they need time management skills and if, if teams and businesses can feed that into new consultants, it's going to help them a lot, because I've actually noticed there's been a few consultants that I've worked with in a boutique who haven't had any global experience. They've gone straight to a boutique struggled time management-wise, organization-wise, creating business. But the people that have been in a bigger, then they go global. Great. It's not always, but I have noticed if you just go straight boutique and you haven't got the big resource for training and all of that, it can be hard because the directors just want to build and create works and the rookies are not really learning, you know.
Speaker 1:So I think, I think that's important and just from a prospecting standpoint how often are you cold calling, Like, have you got a cold list of people that you call three people a day? What's kind of like the metrics of your cold outreach?
Speaker 3:Like now, like I don't do like hardly any cold, because none of it is really cold now. But again, going back for people who are just starting or whatever, like it used to be every day, like that's the thing, it's consistency. I always used to have it in my diary it was either 9 o'clock or then I moved it to 10. But yeah, us people it was every day, bd every day. You know, obviously, if you've got a retainer on that's more important, but back then it was every day well, what's like the one thing that a recruiter needs to stop doing when thinking about bd and prospecting?
Speaker 3:I think, procrastinating on it, like, yes, you want to have a bit of a plan, you know, be, be yourself, be authentic, listen and do at least do five minutes prep before you call on, like, on that role, who reports into how many times it's been re-advertised? Um, you know, just do your due diligence, really, and then and then pick the phone up and call and give them other reasons why they should use you. Don't be the same as every other recruiter. Um, you know, tell them about a similar role you just recruited. Tell them about your background, whatever it may be, you know, or affiliation with their brand, or some new facts about the brand that they think, oh, how does she know that? You know?
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so before it goes into like the discovery call kind of framework and how that works so are you still doing BD just in existing accounts, are you? Is that what you're doing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're warm right, and the relationships are already there and they already know me and the brand, so it's, it is easier.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah again, if I've got a lot of retained work, I don't need to do as much kind of anymore, like I still do it, but it's not like I used to do it and I want to ask, because you gave me a flashback when you said nine before nine what was the the process that the thought process about doing nine beat equals before nine o'clock? I don't know who I got it from. I thought it was 10 before 10. It could be that I used to do seven before seven, but whatever.
Speaker 3:I did three before three I think it was based around gatekeepers. Don't start till nine or something or starting the day in a positive way, something like that yeah, it was before they start their day and they get into their meetings, right, yeah, get them on the way to work or whatever. But again, I think a lot's changed. Yeah, from them, like people work from home, a lot of people don't have the landlines anymore. You know, we used to hammer the landlines, yeah, it's just crazy.
Speaker 2:World's changed. So jumping into discovery calls, those discovery meetings. There's no job yet, but you're really, really. You know fact-finding needs analysis. Did you have a structure to how you used to run it or how you used to work with your team on that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and again, I didn't have like a full template, but I definitely. I basically asked the same sort of say 10 questions, but it could be in a different order and it's weird, it's kind of like just stuck in me, but it'd be a similar approach but maybe in a different order. So, yeah, it's more. What have you done so far? Give me a background on the business. I'll let them talk. So what I'm doing there, downloading information to sell back to right, so it's just sales. So download the information. But yeah, it'll be.
Speaker 3:You know what have you done already? What isn't the role? Tell me what this role isn't you know, because as recruiters, we assume a lot. Yeah, we assume it's exclusive with us. We assume that they've got the budget. Never assume anything in life, right, um, so yeah, and everything else is pretty standard. You know in terms of job brief, but I do like to go a bit deeper about you know what's the wider team like? Do they need coaching? What are you like as a, as a manager? Um, anything you don't like seeing on resumes, any particular brands you want to see? Uh, you know all of that stuff Did you have?
Speaker 2:did you have any questions Like Did you have any questions? Like I used to love asking what's not on the job, brief, like that you're not allowed to put on there. Like, what is the thing about the role that you know you can just share with me? Did you have any kind of silver bullet questions you used to ask?
Speaker 3:No, not really, Not on the job brief. There's nothing, anything different, to be honest. But again, it's yeah, you can assume. Oh, yeah, yeah, they mean this, they want to, they want a mid-level business partner or whatever it may be. Yeah, we have to say okay, so you definitely want to pay x amount. You don't want to pay x, because this is you've got to be very, very clear on briefs, because we've had a fair amount as well, where you'll recruit a role, and it starts at 180, for example. So I've just had it recently started at 180, we go up to 220, we got someone to 220 base. Yeah, you know, and it's like if we knew that months ago we just said a lot of time, you would have had different candidates. So, yeah, I think it's just been very explicit.
Speaker 3:When they say that that's their budget, is it really? And you know you're ultimately doing two searches. Then you're doing a 180 search, you're doing a 220 search, so it's like you're doing double your time, so split your fee in half ultimately, because how do you stop that from happening? Being just very frank, you know, and just just being very honest, um, you can also show them either on the brief, on the day. This is what you get. I like to do that. A lot is. This is what you get at this level, but this is what you get if you pay a bit more. Which do you want you tell me? It doesn't matter to me either way, but you can just give me a bit of a feel from these profiles, because ultimately sometimes they don't know what they're looking for. Like they brief you on a unicorn.
Speaker 2:What about when you meet them and there's no job? Do you go in with some objectives, that you want them to come away from this meeting thinking, okay, next time I'll work with Adam, or okay, I think there's some value here. Do you go to those meetings?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. And you should go to those because sometimes they come off. I've been to loads of meetings where I've had nothing for a year or two and the next minute you're working with them or they're a candidate, for example. So, yeah, definitely go to those meetings and try and get something commercial out of it, whether it's insight. Give them insight as well. Give them something um, what insights would you give on the market?
Speaker 3:that's what I want to know right like we as recruits are so much knowledge about the market, like we know too much really about businesses and candidates and structures, so whatever they kind of want to know to a certain extent. Obviously, you can't reveal everything, but that's power. When you call your property real estate agent, you want to know about the market. So I think that's pretty key. Real estate agent, you want to know about the market, you know like. So I think that's pretty key.
Speaker 3:I think when you go into meetings, um, as well, to your point, asking if you do have a role, you know, would you consider me for the role, uh, to to run the search for you, and you know if, if not, you know why not, because then you sort of one, it's a's a confidence play. Two, it's credibility. Three, it's also you can query anything in the meeting. They might go. Oh well, you guys are a bit small, a bit boutique, I like bigger. It's like you know you can objection handle there and then and it's better in person, right, yeah, so those meetings are good. Again, it's about being commercial. You know, if you know that you're not on the panel, they can't work for people who are not on a panel, they don't use recruiters or they're just not a decision maker. Is it worth your time? Not sure.
Speaker 1:Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of Confessions of a Recruiter brought to you by XRecruiter. Xrecruiter helps ambitious recruiters like you start, run and grow their own recruitment agency. Whether you're in blue collar, white collar, permanent or temporary recruitment, we help recruiters go from where they are today to where they want to be. So if you want to start your own agency, reach out and we'd love to help.
Speaker 2:How did you coach your team? And we've all been there and I've been there myself as a recruiter where you're probably not confident enough with your insights, so you're not even thinking like that. So you think what I'm going to do is to tell you how great the business I work for is, all the things we do and it just becomes a pitch and they glaze over. How do you help your recruiters or people you've managed in the past avoid that?
Speaker 3:I don't think the business they work for is the sell and is the pitch. To be honest, maybe the people that are in the business, or that person that's going to recruit that role for you, their network, what roles they've done before, what's their talent reach like, why they're different. I think that's more what I would play on, rather than because if you're just relying on the brand, you won't last very long. So yeah, and just providing, just having those general insights, but also asking them as well. I always do this at the end of a job brief. Any other questions? What else do you want to know about the market? Anything else you want to ask me? Fire away. And it's like, and I'm literally open. But it's literally saying to them I'm comfortable with whatever you're going to ask me, because I know my market.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really good segue to job briefs, because job briefs sometimes can be very shallow and sometimes clients I think you've made a really good point on it before they actually don't know really what they're looking for and sometimes they'll say I want someone with this experience. But it's not until you dig a little bit deeper. Then you go, oh, you're not looking for that, that's not going to solve that problem. So so what do you do specifically through the job brief process to kind of uncover deeper pain points? Over and above, I want someone with three years experience in this industry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just questions, listen, I think, listening, elaborating, clarifying. Okay, so you said this, so do you mean this? You know, because, again, you can be assuming a lot of the time um, give examples. So if I get you xyz or you know, are you going to be happy with that or do you still think that we need this system for?
Speaker 1:example, is there a one-liner that kind of opens up a new pathway of conversation and rapport that you typically default?
Speaker 3:to. Not really. No, it's just having an honest, genuine, transparent, curious conversation. You know, just go in there, be, be yourself, ask the right questions and listen right. And if you've done some prep work like spend 20 minutes prepping 15 minutes max, you know, company team, the jd, high level points, questions done, um, I think if you go in like that, then you should, you should be fine, but yeah there's not, not one specific thing. I would say no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, what do you do if you're not getting clarity on the role and you feel like there's a big gap between what they think they need and what you could possibly deliver?
Speaker 3:Again, it's having the confidence, and this comes with experience, and this is not cockiness, it's a confidence in your market. You're not going to get a business partner for $130. They're just not $130 anymore, they're $150. They start at $150. I can give you someone at $130, but they're going to be a HR advisor, for example.
Speaker 1:Do you try and open up the brief.
Speaker 1:I think we were having a conversation before around once you get the brief, you kind of push them hypothetically a little bit this way and a little bit this way and take that out and put that in so as you, as you kind of put just before, if you're looking at someone for 130, maybe you know they're not a hrbp, they're a hr advisor and we're going to take this out. And what is? How does this feel like? What's that kind of exploit, like that kind of exploring phase of pushing the boundaries, either on salary, on experience? How do you go about that, if at all?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So it's more showing them that I want to get this right for you. If we don't get it right the first time, it's costly and let's just get it right now. Let's go deeper now and just clarifying all of that and clarifying the brief and just putting you know trust into them and hopefully they will trust you. You know, but a lot of it comes from like credibility and what you've done before. You know.
Speaker 1:How do you get that if you don't have the runs on the board?
Speaker 3:That's a hard one, because, yeah, you're a rookie.
Speaker 2:We used to get told a lot like you'd sell the experience of your team. So you know you've got one year, but within the team there's 20 years of experience and we've been in the market this long, and then you can always default to asking someone else basically that'd be a quick default.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we've just had this role, we've just run that, and you can even talk about brands as well. Like, talk about similar brands that you just recruited for. That is like gold and people want to be affiliated with that. So it was interesting when I was actually running the the team at michael page. When I got there it was all um industry specific. So, like, like I said, I was doing banking, finance, professional services, it or white collar, which is crazy because, like you know where I am now, where it's sort of normally is, is salary levels and you do any industry and I think there's kind of power in that. I think it's better doing it salary levels. But if you go to a farmer company, you're taking a brief and you've just literally had a similar role with another farmer company. They want, they want that. They they're like wow, he's got people that are highly, highly relevant. So, definitely, talking about similar briefs, you just had similar clients, you just had so do you think industry did you say industry's better?
Speaker 2:or you think the salary's better? Because I'm you know, can you jump as an hr vp to a different industry? Or do you want to stay within mining or something?
Speaker 3:yeah, so what? What I meant by that is we were I was only allowed to recruit in those industries specifically, all salary levels. But now I just do specific salary levels, all industries. But the other question that you're asking any HR person can move from virtually any industry Blue collar to law firms very hard, you know. It's got to be kind of similar. White collar and blue collar is where it becomes tricky.
Speaker 2:Is there, like standard or typical, objections that you face in HR recruitment, particularly at the levels you're recruiting? Do you tend to face the same objections in terms of working with you?
Speaker 1:And it can't be. I'll chat to HR.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, not really, apart from you know, know they're sort of doing it themselves, but it's not necessarily a hr thing, but it's the whole budget and all of that. Right, and like I, I don't really work contingent, to be honest. Like I, just why I don't see value in it anymore. Like you name me something where you get a service with doing loads of work and then you get it for free. Like real estate agents don't do work until you sign the contract, so why recruiters working for free? It's an industry thing. So I think, um, there's sometimes pushback on retainers. We all know a retained search is a better search. It's a fact like you can take your time, it's more thorough.
Speaker 3:It's a fact. Like you can take your time, it's more thorough, it's better for them, they know where they're at. They might get a little bit of a discount, even though you shouldn't really give a discount because you're giving more service. You know there's loads of different reasons, but, um, I think you know the industry as a whole gets pushed back on fees and we had one the other day. Global brand, great brand. You know to go to market with what fees they work out. It was crazy. It was like from 9 to 16. It's like who's working at 9?
Speaker 2:no way you know, somebody somewhere said no, it's like when I came to england sorry, when I came to australia from england, I thought who's said 15 over here? Because? Now everything's that, yeah, yeah, um but I've got a question on the retainer piece I. I would just be asking that question to every HR person I meet. Why do you not do retainers as a standard? Do they ever ask that? Do they ever give you any feedback on that?
Speaker 3:No, well, it's because there's some other players that work in that way, right. So it's like well, why can't you work in that way? Well, because I'm giving a different service. You know, and that's what most people should believe, right, if you really believe in the work that you're doing, it's all about value you believe you can provide, but also how much they perceive the value. Because if you're working on contingent, non-exclusive roles, that client doesn't really value you. When they come to you and it's like yeah, retained, we retained with you. We know that's how you work, we want you to work it, we like your network, we love how you know you can do tricky searches, you know that. But that comes with time. Like I'm not naive to think that someone who's just starting recruitment is going to go out and sell retainers. There's no reason why they can't if they pitch it right. But it's obviously not realistic, you know.
Speaker 2:Have you got any examples of where you have turned a client from a? You know it's just a no or just contingent to now. They're a client here and it does retain yeah yeah, recently had it.
Speaker 3:Actually it was a very big brand listed, yeah, like 5,000 people here, and the first search that we did was contingent exclusive. Quite a high fear. I think it was like 20 or 22% Placed. That A couple of months later came with another role, a lot more niche. I just said, look, it's a niche search. It's going to need a lot more work.
Speaker 3:It helped that it was confidential as well. There's a lot more of that happening in my market anyway, probably other markets, because there's so much restructuring and redundancies. So more of that happening in my market anyway, probably other markets, because there's so much restructuring and redundancies. So that to me is like you need confidentiality, you need pace, you need a deep search. I can't tell people who the brands are. It's got retainer written all over it. You know like it's. So it was like you know we need to do it that way and we did it that way, um, and that was in a couple of months, you know. So it's not to say that that's a good question, because people do think, oh, we've always worked at these terms and contingent um, so we can't do retain with them. Of course you can yeah.
Speaker 2:Are there any objections that you like hearing, because you know that it's no, it's relatively straightforward to overcome, or yeah?
Speaker 3:I had it the other day with uh, the one I was talking about before the nine 9% to 12%. It was yeah they needed people really quick. They'd already been to an agency. Then they came to us and they thought that they were scoping the mark, getting more candidates quicker, by going to two agencies. But I said to them I was like, with all due respect, you're giving us X amount of time. You've already been to someone else. You've had your own search. Like it's not commercial for us, it doesn't work for us.
Speaker 2:And there might be some damage I need to undo in the market if a few agencies have gone scattergun in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But also on that, you know clients, sometimes some can get you know annoyed and get a bit hissy with you. But if you say, look, I don't work like that and I can't work the role of contingent unless it's retained, or at least a third up front, some respect it and go okay, well, you know your worth. And others go okay, well, I'll go somewhere else. But at least if you hold your standards high and that's the roles that you want to recruit, go and recruit those roles.
Speaker 1:How often would someone come back to you? Let's say they go. Oh, we only do contingent, you go, sorry, it's got to be a retainer. Has anyone ever come back to you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've had it a few times like previously in my old organization, but again it's like why didn't it work with the first agency? You know, is it just a bit of a basket job? You know, when things like that happen, well, I have done it before and then we have gone, retained and then probably filled it, but it's just not ideal, right? The search is, it seems, like a hard one when things like that happen.
Speaker 2:And final question for me around objections. We all face them in recruitment all the time 's. No fees, it's multiple agencies, whatever it is. Have you got any advice for you know um a recruiter, more junior recruiter, who you know how to stay confident when they're facing objections? Do you have any kind of framework that you used or anything you'd say around a mindset something like that?
Speaker 3:yeah, again, it's more listening, um reaffirming what you've heard is right with them as well. So, okay, so you're telling me that you can't do retain because you can't do up up front, um, you know invoices or whatever it may be. So just clarifying things. But yeah, there's not really, uh, there's not a specific process on objections to be. It's all very bespoken, unique, right, it's just listening and having those having those mature, honest, commercial conversations.
Speaker 1:What's the most common objection you get?
Speaker 3:We're doing it ourselves on the market is just not amazing anywhere really, for most industries in recruitment I feel like the economy is not great as well, so that recruitment spend might not be there. Ta talent acquisition obviously we recruit for that. That has been the quietest in the last two years. I always look at TA as a reflection of the recruitment market. When TA is busy, the recruitment market is pumping 2022, 2023, 2020,. When TA is dead, the recruitment market's pumping 2022, 2023, 2020. When the TA's dead, the market's dead because organisations aren't recruiting. So right now, a lot of talent acquisition people, you know, obviously want to keep their jobs right. There's been a lot of redundancies in TA, unfortunately, so yeah, it comes down to a lot at the moment around budget. You, you know they've got ads out.
Speaker 1:Okay. So if someone said to you look, we're just doing it ourselves, we've got some ads out, how would you overcome that?
Speaker 3:Well, it'll be. You know you're only getting the active market right, so do you want to see the passive market? Do you want to see people from my network who are in the passive market, who you have not seen already and that you know? I used to put that on a lot of my BD chases on email as well. It's like okay, so you're capturing the active market, so you're only getting I don't know, 20, 25% of the market. Really, you know a lot of the good candidates used to be more passive. So do you want to see people who we're representing, who you won't see from the ad because they don't have time to apply? I'm representing them exclusively, I'm their agent.
Speaker 3:Um, I had it the other day actually, um with singapore and they do business very differently and recruitment very differently. And uh, yeah, they basically had had an ad out and they wanted to see who I had. But when I was talking sort of brands, they're like, oh, we've already got that person, like they've done a talent pool, like a telemap, and I was like, yeah, but that means you telemap the whole market. And they're like, oh, yeah, but if we reach out to them, they'll reach out to us. And I was like well, actually no, because that industry that it's in in HR is quite niche and those types of candidates don't want people to know that they're looking because all of the different brands talk to each other. So like in that case, she wouldn't have responded if they had reached out directly because I was representing her highly confidentially. So that's another thing.
Speaker 1:So I like that. And fees like how often do fees come up for you and what's the kind of general ballpark for fees that you find yourself at?
Speaker 3:Yeah, like currently in my role. You know, established desk, established business. That's been going for, you know, 20 years. You know we play at my level. So I've normally done sort of you that 150 to 240 ish, but recently more 170 to 240, 250.
Speaker 1:So it's normally like 18, sometimes 22, you know really around that mark, and how do you overcome objections when you've got someone that goes no, that's a bit too high, like what's well.
Speaker 3:Ask them, why, like what? You know? Why do you think it's high? Like you know, yes, there might be another agency that's doing 15, 14, but why are they doing 15, 14 and I'm doing 18? You know, I don't have pushback from other clients. This is sort of my average fee. I'm happy to compromise for you if there's something else in return, you know. You know, maybe another role, or have the invoice paid quicker or whatever. Maybe it's good.
Speaker 3:It's just it's called negotiation, right, like in anything. It's like if, if I'm going to do something for you, you know, can you do something for me? Yeah, you know. Um, so yeah, it's more around that. And if you're only competing on price, it's all about speed, then right, and no one wants to be against another agency and you're only competing on price. It's all about speed, then right, and no one wants to be against another agency and you're just competing on speed. So I think price is, if you know your worth, you know, hold your own. If it's one or 2%, think commercially, you know. But it's all case by case, right. Like, if you're new to recruitment and you can easily fill this role, take it, but you know, don't do it at 12, 15. Okay, you know, it depends on the desk, it depends on the business, it depends on the volume, it depends on the client.
Speaker 1:So what kind of mindset would you have for a more rookie recruiter Maybe they're three or four years in have for a more rookie recruiter maybe they're three or four years in fees are a bit of a challenge for them. They're stuck at 13 14. They keep butchering the end of of the job, brief, of the discovery of, of the, the process, and then they get to the end. They you know it's 13, it's 14 and they're trying to get the job at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're trying to get their fees higher, like what kind of tips have you got for them to get their average fee from 14% to 16%?
Speaker 3:Just more skills and training in negotiation and value offering and EVP. Like, what are you actually offering to the market? You know 13% sounds terrible, right, Like it doesn't sound good. So like, are you offering offering to the market? You know 13% sounds terrible, right, Like it doesn't sound good. So like, are you offering a good service? Have you got good candidates? Like, why are you doing 13?
Speaker 3:It's a hard one really. I think you've got to go back to what's the business offering? Like, why are we in business? Why are we unique? You know, who have we got in the business? That is credible. Can we send some more senior guys in to bring the fees up and go on those briefs with them, maybe? And then the rookies can learn, do more training with people. So try and tie it back to your process. Yeah, you've got to go from the start, because to me that's kind of a failed business because it's so low. Like you shouldn't be doing. Like it's basically saying I don't think I'm that good at my job and I'm not sure if I'm going to fill it or not, so like, I'll do it for 12 or 13.
Speaker 2:I just have it hammered into me Like you sell the entire service right, so I can get made to be on a bus or I can go in an Aston Martin, and the Aston Martin gives me a very different experience to getting where I need to go. And actually it's the long list, it's the short list, it's this, it's the mapping. So probably outlining the process is probably how a rookie recruiter can uplift the fees because I can ping over some CVs 13% if one of them sticks or this is the journey we're going to go on together, so maybe there's a bit of that in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting because the agency that I used to work at before I started my own business, the fee schedule was 10%, no guarantee, 12%, zero to 60K.
Speaker 2:It's you that's brought the fees down. Basically, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I used to recruit and they'd go oh mate, what's this 10% one?
Speaker 1:I'm like oh yeah, 10%, you're never going to hear from me, because it's 10%, any salary, no guarantee. And so you'd be recruiting 100k role and you would be thinking, okay, I'm gonna chalk up a, maybe an 18k fee here, something like this. And they go yeah, mate, this 10% looks good, I don't need a guarantee period. It's sweet, I'm really confident in this guy. And you're like fuck, I just chopped my feeiend half. Yeah, it was part of the terms and it's probably taken me, I don't know, two or three years when I started vendito. Now it's just 22, any salary package, I don't care if it's a 50k roll, I don't need to recruit them, but or a 200k roll.
Speaker 1:It's just 22 and that's it. And do you have? How do your terms look? Is it gated on salary? Yeah, it is, and to be honest, I don't know how much I agree the way the industry is like that, because it's harder.
Speaker 2:I kind of like the 22%, but that's just the fee, it's just 22% of whoever we find it should be more flat fees, and sometimes I think, shouldn't it be the other way around?
Speaker 3:So the more senior roles, the higher it should be, the less percentage, and the lower salary ones should be more percentage. Do you know?
Speaker 2:what I mean. Yeah, it would make sense, but we can't talk like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, and the problem and I'm not going to go on a rant here, I'll finish it up after this kind of segue but, um, you know you're dealing with a. We used to recruit in retail and so it was a 55k plus super, and they'd only pay 10. And so you're talking 5k, 6k fees, yeah, uh, and you'd have to speak to 100 people, uh, to try and find one person and they don't take their career as seriously, they don't really care, they don't really answer their phone.
Speaker 1:They'll say they'll person and they don't take their career as seriously, they don't really care, they don't really answer their phone. They'll say they'll get an interview, they don't turn up, they don't like it. It's just that when you're dealing with a kind of the more entry-level end of the market, the roles are actually 10 times harder and you get a quarter of the fee. So it's really interesting when you think about these gated fee rates around.
Speaker 2:It comes down to how much that person's going to impact the business, surely?
Speaker 1:That's a good point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's actually a really good way to put it, going back to the people that are doing the 1340% and struggling to get it up. They've just got to go back to their offering and how they position themselves in the market, because ultimately, clients come to us to solve a problem and for our network, right, really. So it's like they need to work more on that and the negotiation and their value.
Speaker 2:But there isn't another kind of section it's not exactly business development, but I think you're quite, hopefully, quite comfortable talking about this and it's something that recruiters struggle with, and I think I've been through this without even realizing, and that's burnout and that's something I think you've spoken a little bit about. Like when did it happen for you and when did you kind of realize that maybe?
Speaker 3:you were struggling. Yeah, I had burnout, quite bad. And look, I think that word gets thrown around quite a lot recently. You know when you're burnt out and I think the definition look it up it's something like when you're emotionally, physically, it's either spiritual, energetically, depleted, right. So if you're a little bit tired, you're not burnt out. Burnout is very different. It's where, yeah, it's where, and there's a scale right there's. You know, like everything. It's where and there's a scale right there's. You know, like everything.
Speaker 3:It's where you start getting cynical about your job. Your health stops going. You get sick a lot, you know, I get. You know I'd be getting headaches or whatever it may be. Yeah, like I say, you're very cynical about your role, you might be messing up process, you might be getting angry or whatever it may be, but you just get. You just don't feel like yourself and you've probably took on too much, or it's been building and building and then you've took on too much ultimately. So for me, it wasn't just a one day or I'm burnt out. It actually happened like I think it was three times until I realized that I need to change something here. So it happened like I'd have big quarters and big years or whatever. And then, yeah, like hit a bit of a wall, I need a couple of days off here, and then you know work would give me what were you feeling? Just like really drained.
Speaker 1:Like sad. Is that kind of borderline?
Speaker 3:Not overly happy.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't know if I was sad, but like very drained, low energy, feeling a bit sick, feeling quite stressed um. Another feature of burnout is um nothing gives you happiness and the most important bit is what used to give you happiness doesn't give you happiness anymore you used to love walking your dog, walking a beach, going to gym.
Speaker 3:It was just like, yeah, what, whatever? And you just go very robotic right um. But yeah, I'm very passionate about the burnout. I've got a friend um chibs who's a he's a burnout coach. Uh, he's a good friend of mine now. He was my burnout coach and he's a he's a. He's a burnout um meditation facilitator on the car map. Um, so he's, he's great.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we've done a lot of work together um so you can obviously come out of the burnout or you can actually find a way through it you can.
Speaker 3:But, like I say, it's not, like it doesn't just come and that's it. So, so I would. I would have that burnout. Then I would go to a retreat for a week like, yeah, I'm sweet, I'm chilled and I've had good food and I've detoxed and all of that. I come back and I just do exactly the same as what I've just done not changed any habits. Oh, I'm going to be a bit more chill. I'm not going to look at my phone at night, do the same. Another quarter goes by, or a couple of quarters, whatever. Same thing again. So you've got to listen to your body. So I was very in my head and, uh, not in my body. You've got to listen, you know, to your body and the signs it's telling you. So, um, yeah, it'll creep up on you. Basically, if you don't look after yourself, like health is number one and you won't be a good recruiter or businessman or whatever if you haven't got your health.
Speaker 2:Um, so yeah, just it does creep on because people don't talk about it very much. Um, can you, is it obviously can you see it in other people like would you have to be very aware in yourself well, I would because I've experienced it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and some good managers should be able to pick it, like if you really know your team or you know your colleagues. There's been a few times I've had to say you know you're okay, so I've been all right and normally like, yeah, I'm just a bit like tired, or you know, I've got a lot going on with the kids at home and all that you know like it's full on right. So, yeah, you should be able to pick it in your colleagues and your team. Definitely. I think there needs to be more training on it, to be honest. But you yourself should sort of know if you're not feeling right physically, mentally, yeah, like I say, you run down, you're a bit cynical, what you used to love, and if you're not getting joy out of your role anymore, but you used to. What's changed? The role hasn't changed. The market might be a bit different. It's your mindset. Your body is like. I can't do this five days a week on the phone 10 hours.
Speaker 2:I used to be on the phone on my page 11, 12 hours a week and I mean I'm sure there's lots of people listening who are feeling exactly that. And as you're talking, I'm thinking, yeah, there was definitely phases in my career where I was there. What advice would you give someone who's going through that now? What should they do? What's the next?
Speaker 3:step. Good question, like a timeout is great. Just take a week, two weeks, whatever you need to take, you know. Hopefully your organization is supportive. You know, do some healthy, good things for you and your soul.
Speaker 3:You know you might not go to the gym, you might start doing yoga, you might just be doing walks, you might do massages. Connect with friends as well, because that's another thing. Your friends probably realize you've gone a bit more cynical or whatever, or just tired. You know, rest, go on a holiday, eat well, sleep well. It's all holistic, it's not one thing you can't.
Speaker 3:Oh, I go to the gym but then I drink beers and eat crap. No, no, you need to sleep well, eat well, drink well. You know all of that. It's a holistic thing. So, eat well, drink well, you know all of that, it's a holistic thing. So, yeah, I think you're just bringing it back to that, but taking the time and don't feel guilty about taking the time as well, because if you burn out, you probably deserve the break, right, like you probably, because recruitment's intense, it's full on, you know, for a lot of people. You know some people get quite emotional about it. I think the longer you're in it, the less emotional you are like, if I was to get a back out, I'm just like, okay, I'll just find someone else, but when you first start and you get a back out, wait till you've had a few hundred.
Speaker 3:You're like, all right, you know you're getting a back out before the back out yeah you're like oh, I knew that was happening yeah, but you know there's lots of help out there for burnout as well and, and you know, some people could be, um, not burnt out but mentally going through stuff right, like there's a lot of men, you know you probably know as well like men's suicide rates through the roof, especially in australia. So you know men don't talk a lot, but there's a lot of help out there. There's free help. You know you can get psychologist sessions on medicare, like there's stuff online. You can talk to your friends, you can talk to your colleagues. So I think talking about how you're feeling is is to identify it in yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, talk to people, change a bit of your habits. Yeah, I like the things that you said there about the things that didn't make you happy. So I did make you happy, don't make you happy anymore. So that's kind of a wow okay. Yeah, I've certainly been there yeah, 100.
Speaker 1:I love that. So, um, we spoke about a lot. What do you think the biggest key takeaway for a recruiter is from this chat?
Speaker 3:it's probably just a few gem gems in each topic, to be honest, but I think it comes down to a lot is to do with credibility. I think for someone who's just starting in recruitment time management, persistence be a sponge around those senior people ask questions. You've got to be resilient because when you start starting in recruitment you're going to get a lot of no's, you're going to get a few back outs, you know. So I think those pieces, but a lot of the other stuff that I've talked about, you know the little gems there. I think, yeah, love that.
Speaker 1:All right, are we ready for the game? The game, let's do it. So these are the rules of the game. Mate, your name is your buzzer. I'm going to ask the question. It's multiple choice A, B, C or D. If you know the answer before I'm finished, you can just buzz straight in. Best of five. Yeah, it's not best of 10. Best of five.
Speaker 3:Loser has a shot of whiskey I don't drink, but uh, that's fine.
Speaker 2:Yet we'll work out another, another one, okay here we go.
Speaker 1:Question number one who won the most formula one world championships?
Speaker 2:ed, who is hamilton, because you had one taken off him. Correct, there we go Jeez.
Speaker 1:Okay, here we go. Question number two One Ed zero Adam, who played John McClane in Die Hard Ed, bruce Willis.
Speaker 3:Oh, this is going to be five nil bud.
Speaker 1:It needs to be three nil. Which rapper is known for the album the Chronic Ed Dr Drake?
Speaker 2:He got it right. Yeah, all right. Yeah, we'll give him that.
Speaker 1:All right, it's two-one.
Speaker 2:It's two-one.
Speaker 1:All right, this is another film, but this should be an easy one. Actually, no, that's an Ed one. I want to throw Ed off.
Speaker 2:Feels like everyone wants me to lose.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, we don't need the game. Game view in all the time. Which singer is known as the Voice and won the Voice? Australia, A Delta Goodrum.
Speaker 2:B Jessica.
Speaker 1:Malboy.
Speaker 3:C Tina Arena.
Speaker 1:D, kylie Minogue. Adam, no, that was Adam A. Congratulations, we're two all. You both got to be extremely quick with this too, okay.
Speaker 2:Just get on your buzzers please?
Speaker 1:Which Australian city is closest to Antarctica?
Speaker 2:Ed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Come on, Ed, it's that Dun dun dun, you can't do that shit.
Speaker 2:You can't say, ed, where was the timer? Where did the timer come into?
Speaker 1:it. Okay, let me just ask a question straight up. All right, here we go. This is the tiebreaker. This is for the win In the wild world of recruitment. What's the boldest move a hiring manager can make to snag top talent? A offer a six-figure signing bonus with a private yacht party to seal the deal. Offer a six-figure signing bonus with a private yacht party to seal the deal. B Slide into the candidate's DMs with a personalized rap video about the job. C Promise a corner office, unlimited tacos and a pet llama for the employee lounge. D Host a Hunger Games-style competition where the candidates battle for the role. Ed.
Speaker 2:Ed, I'm going to go 25% chance here B Slide into here b sliding the dms with the rap.
Speaker 1:Go with that as well. Yeah, dances b congratulations.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was good. They should do that. Hiring managers.
Speaker 1:Just a little rap a little rap in the dms. Well, mate, thank you for joining us on confessions. It's been really fun. Hopefully you've enjoyed it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah oh the question.
Speaker 1:One thing to go right okay, you need to answer the question of our previous guest who wrote in the diary like a diary of a ceo sort of thing, no, no, this is totally original okay what would you be if you were not a recruiter?
Speaker 3:you could be anything. Be cool to be a dj, wouldn't it?
Speaker 3:a rapper, adam dj great to be a dj, but if it was a bit more serious probably something around burnout, to be honest, or like men's mental health, love it um. And to be honest, you know I may do something like that, you know in the future, maybe on the side. But um, meditation I'm very passionate about as well and you know let's call it mindfulness because I know people get a bit get the ick when you say the word meditation, like we're sitting here cross-legged, you know, going on um.
Speaker 1:Is that not what you know?
Speaker 3:so, yeah, because it's changed. Meditation changed my life, to be honest, like when I, since I've been here 10 years, I've been doing meditation every morning and I would say that has definitely played a factor in my career and my happiness and creating a life for myself, to be honest, because without it my mind is very busy, you know. So it just calms me down, brings me back to center, and I might do it like morning, maybe at lunch, you know, before bed, whatever. Even if you do it once a day Because here's the thing, right, if I had a pill now, no side effects, it's going to make you more focused, more calmer, a bit more gentle, a bit more mindful, less anxious. Would you take it? Or?
Speaker 3:I'd be popping it every five minutes. There we go. So why don't people meditate for three or five minutes a day? I don't understand it, but yeah, I'm really passionate about that. Awesome, awesome, love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.