Confessions of a Recruiter
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Confessions of a Recruiter
Mastering Candidate Experience: FMCG and Consumer Goods | COAR S2-EP2
On this episode, we sit down with Natalie Rogers of Six Degrees to uncover a practical system for keeping senior FMCG candidates engaged, informed, and excited to say yes. From the first brief to the final offer, Natalie shows how trust, clarity, and coaching slash no-shows and build momentum.
We break down why FMCG hiring is so tough—shifting categories, tricky job titles, and credibility that hinges on commercial detail. Natalie shares her reverse brief, sourcing strategies that actually convert, and coaching frameworks that help candidates tell clear, commercial stories without sounding scripted.
If you recruit in FMCG, marketing, or any talent-tight market, this episode is a masterclass in candidate control without being controlling.
· Our Website is: xrecruiter.io
This season is all about candidate control, stopping candidates from flaking out and ghosting factory.
SPEAKER_01:When it comes to FMCG, you really have to know what you're talking about. Otherwise, candidates can tell pretty instantly.
SPEAKER_02:It is the hardest discipline and area to work in.
SPEAKER_03:We're hearing from a lot of recruiters, you can get the jobs, but it's around getting the candidates, keeping them engaged, and actually getting them to stick.
SPEAKER_01:Invest into your candidate pool. The more you invest in them, the more trust they will have with you. The more you're able to influence them down the line, the more they're gonna want to work with you. There's some candidates that I've known for like eight years before I've actually placed them. I don't want to be transactional in my approach. I want to build a long-term relationship with you.
SPEAKER_03:Alright, welcome back to Confessions. We're joined by Nat Rogers from Six Degrees. How are you?
SPEAKER_01:I'm good. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_03:So this season is all about candidate control, managing candidates through the process, having a good candidate experience, stopping candidates from flaking out and ghosting you. Because at the moment, uh we're hearing from a lot of recruiters, you can get the jobs, but it's around getting the candidates, keeping them engaged, and actually getting them to stick. So I'm really excited to talk to you about this, Nat. So let's just high-level overview for anyone that doesn't know you. Um, quickly spend a couple of minutes on your career and then we'll get into it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I kind of fell into recruitment like a lot of people do. I uh at a junior age, I was junior age, uh, earlier in my career, I actually resigned from a role without a contract in hand. Disaster. Um, as encouraged by the recruiter. So that was a bit scary. And I ended up landing a role doing some resourcing, and I went across a couple of different markets doing that, went traveling for a bit, and then through a personal referral recommendation, landed at six degrees. And I've been there 10 years now, or just over. Uh, so I started as a talent engagement specialist, which was like resourcing. Within about six months, I moved into a consultant role there, and I was doing contract recruitment across all marketing, so education, not-for-profit, B2B, etc. Uh, and then over time I've really found my niche in FMCG and consumer goods. So that's like food, beverages, toys that includes hardware, beauty, etc. And yeah, I've probably been specializing in that for about eight years now, give or take. And I'm obsessed. I love it.
SPEAKER_02:It is the hardest discipline and area to work in. I mean, well, I think so. Why? Well, I'll let you answer.
SPEAKER_01:Um, when it comes to FMCG, you really have to know what you're talking about. Otherwise, candidates can tell pretty instantly.
SPEAKER_03:What is FMCG?
SPEAKER_01:Sorry, fast moving consumer goods. So food, beverage, um, anything you find in a grocery store or like in a Kmart or whatever, alcohol. Um, and so it's like, you know, big business. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_01:And so you have to ask commercial questions to understand if they are actually good at what they do and they can differentiate themselves from those like nice candidates, but maybe not actually top of the pops.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01:So and it's very um relationship-driven.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so so obviously this uh season is all about um candidates, how to attract candidates, how to retain them, etc. So if you could just give us a high-level overview on what you do specifically in your process that you feel retains candidates' engagement and interest better than your colleagues.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was actually just having a think about that when you were saying it. I don't have candidates flaking out as a general rule. I can't think of the last time that that's happened to me, which is hopefully a good sign. I think throughout the process, I want to be giving really good insights on the market. I want to be really clear with a great brief, um, giving really strong coaching and feedback along the way. So you're building that trust, you're building that sense of authority, um, uh, but also reminding them that you're also a person at the end of the day. And so if it is that I've forgotten to come back to them or reply to an email or I've missed a message or something, like you are always welcome to reach back out to me, um, as well as ask for any advice or feedback along the way. So I think it's really being supportive and consultative throughout the process. And also just letting them know that yes, we're talking about this role now, but if it's not this role, I want to build a long-term relationship with you. So there's some candidates that I've known for like seven years, eight years before I've actually placed them, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
SPEAKER_03:I'm just gonna throw some stats at you. Generally, if you book five interviews, one of them might not turn up.
SPEAKER_01:No.
unknown:No.
SPEAKER_03:So how many interviews would you book for a client generally for one role? Would you shortlist two people, three people, five people?
SPEAKER_01:It depends on the role. To be fair, the level of roles that I'm doing these days, uh generally one, 120 up to two, two fifty kind of region. So I think there's also the context of that being when it's not so much junior roles or blue collar, it is a different kind of ball game. I think also the fact that I've been in the market for a long time plays into that as well, maybe, because it's definitely one of those spaces where everyone knows everyone and they don't want to burn bridges, etc. So I would probably generally book at least two, but three interviews with a client from a short list. Um, but I might present, depending on the market or the role, like between two and five options, for example.
SPEAKER_02:You mentioned relationships and that that industry was that space rather rather than industry, is so relationship driven. And you mentioned you know people with six, seven years in some instances. Um, how would you how do you manage just maybe catching up with people just to keep the relationship going versus we can do something together in the short term?
SPEAKER_01:That is a great question. I'm I was saying earlier I have been extremely busy recently, and I haven't been able to do as much of that proactive relationship building or maintenance as I would like to. So I like to, where possible, do one to two a week, whether it's a break, I find breakfast a great option for those. So you're not, you know, cutting out of your day. Um but I like to do one of those or two a week on top of the more proactive stuff. Um, that's if it's more of a catch-up with a candidate that I've placed or a client that I'm not necessarily chatting to about something specific to sort of keep the whole network warm. But I think in what I do, uh interviewing people, I put so much effort into the interview itself and the briefing, etc., that the relationship stays pretty warm, full stop, even if it is, you know, too long in between drinks, uh more than I'd like it to be at least, then it's it's never really like a cold relationship, generally speaking.
SPEAKER_03:So where do you find them mainly? Do you are you proactively outreaching people or are you posting ads, people coming to you, word of mouth, like what's generally, if if you if you reflect back on the last couple of years of you filling roles, where are these candidates coming from specifically?
SPEAKER_01:It definitely depends on the market. So, as we know, like COVID and post-COVID was another world when it came to recruitment. Um, so you sort of have to adapt along the way. Definitely going to my network first and foremost. So whether that's looking back through our database people I've spoken to about roles more recently, or I've just had one of those reconnect catch-up kind of candidate calls with, um definitely my LinkedIn. I am obsessed with LinkedIn tiles at the moment. I think tiles. Yeah, visual. And it's a great way to actually get someone to stop on their LinkedIn feed and see what the post is about without having to read all the detail. If it is something that they're interested in, then I put quite a bit of detail, but not as much as would be a job ad, to give them a sense of who the client is, what the role looks like, what I'm looking for, etc. And I have amazing response from that. I will have at least five to like 20 people reach out to me every time. And there's been multiple instances of actually placing candidates just off having posted that rather than having to do a deep dive search, etc. But I do like to proactively be reaching out to people as well. So trying to play the long game in terms of this person's not right for me right now, but trying to build that relationship and warm it up.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so so you've got a job brief, you've just met up with Coca-Cola. Um, and they are saying we need an FMCG professional.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Let's go with that. We're looking for an FMCG executive. Uh, can you please recruit that for us? No, no kidding. What's like your process then to then go to market with these and and finding these candidates? Are you just straight LinkedIn tile, post a LinkedIn ad and then just source the candidates through there? Or like what's the actual process that you go through?
SPEAKER_01:So for me, it's definitely about understanding the brief in a lot of detail. And I think one of the reasons that FMCG can be more challenging to recruit in is because it's also changing a lot. And what, for example, ahead of marketing looks like in one business versus another looks really different. And so having a really clear understanding about what are you actually looking for and what is this person actually gonna be doing so I can get a clear idea about what that person's gonna look like. So I'd take the brief, I'll do a reverse brief back to the client to make sure we're all aligned, get all the right numbers that are gonna help the candidate from a commercial perspective, understand.
SPEAKER_03:What's a reverse brief?
SPEAKER_01:So basically, what we will do is like here's an overview of the company, here's an overview of the role outside of obviously just what's on the PD, which I'll also share with them. Here's some of the key projects that you're gonna be inheriting or you're gonna get to drive in the next 12 months, for example. And here's uh what the ideal candidate profile looks like. You might not send that specifically to the candidate, obviously, but it's more about here's actually what's the role's gonna look like in the next 12 months or so.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, so you kind of pitch them what your go-to-market strategy will be for candidates.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's like taking the brief and synthesizing it down and just like a can a short, concise version to make sure we are on the same page. So from the get-go, we are aligned of what this search is gonna look like. So they can't come back in two weeks' time and go, this isn't what we agreed on, because it's like very clear. So you're like removing the risk from the outset with here's the brief that we're agreeing that we're working to. And then I'll use that in briefing candidates. Generally, during that brief conversation, I write down some names on the bottom because I've been talking to people that are gonna be relevant, and that's probably my first point of call of these are the people I think would be really interesting, again, because I have the luxury of having been in my space for quite some time. And then I will set up a job in our system, obviously, and start having to think about who I think is gonna be relevant to reach out to. So I'll go through our own database first, who have I, what are some similar roles that I've worked on recently, or some similar candidate conversations that I've had, do a bit of searching there, like where's the most engaged and you know, easiest conversion first. And then to be fair, I don't often post jobs at job ads these days. Uh, the tile will be potentially co-branded with me in the company, or it's potentially um just blind. And then that's where it'll be like a bit of a summary of what the role looks like. And then honestly, I'd have so many people reach out first that I go there, and then if need be, I'll do a LinkedIn search or a database search or whatever.
SPEAKER_02:Your colleague's pretty good at sharing the tiles, or is it? Yeah, I was gonna say, because given that six degrees is so established in FMCG, I reckon that in that in itself will be incredible.
SPEAKER_01:But even just people liking it or what have you, you get those second and third connections reach out to you as well. So it's the people that you're obviously connected with, and I have a lot of follow uh connections, I don't know, maybe like 10,000 or something. But then it's like those second and third connections that you don't necessarily know that are also proactively reaching out to you. It feels like it's a hack of recruitment that if you're actually investing into your LinkedIn presence, it starts to really pay dividends. So and then yeah, then then the re the outreach side of things as well, if need be, to tap into people that aren't necessarily within my network.
SPEAKER_02:Do you do much? Sorry to interrupt, and now we're kind of jumping a little bit, but you just mentioned your presence on LinkedIn. Do you do much uh outside of the tiles for jobs? Do you just do things about yourself or your business, things that are not totally job related?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I do. I feel a bit weird posting that stuff. Okay. I did one just yesterday because I won an award at work. And you feel a little bit like Congratulations. Thank you. You feel a little bit like, hello, here I am. Um but do you feel like? Sorry, yeah. Yeah, can't do this one. Yeah, we can cut that out. Um, it feels a bit weird to be like self-promoting, but it's the sort of stuff that shows clients and candidates as well. Like it's reiterating that message of I'm an expert in my space.
SPEAKER_02:I'm good at my job.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm good at my job. You know, won some awards in the past, like saucer awards and stuff like that. And I I make a post of pointing posting that stuff. I don't personally do that. I've just come back from a holiday and here's what I learned. I that's I don't personally, but they each do their own. But I try to do like insights. I've gotten a little less hands-on with this more recently, but I used to write a lot of content, like getting inspired by something that would be frustrating during a recruitment process, or maybe I wish a candidate handled it this way instead of this way, and posting that sort of stuff. So I'm giving value back to the to the um to my connections or my network, whether that's here's how to write a CV or here's some, you know, stop writing your CV in Canva because it's not being seen by ATS systems, or like just little feedback to keep going constant. Oh my gosh, it's so frustrating. It's like, especially marketers that I'm dealing with all the time, they want to be making it look pretty, but it just comes up as blank, at least on our system. So giving them the feedback and and tips and trips or tips and tricks or even some insights on the market, like there's certain parts of the market that are really challenging to recruit and feeding that in so that when potentially you're recruiting that role, they already have that insight. Um, like uh links to reports that we've done or events that we might be doing, that sort of stuff. So yeah, I try to really actively be giving back so that when someone's reaching out to you, they already think that you're an hopefully think you're an expert in the space and you're already that sort of trusted advisor because they know that you're sort of differentiating from the competition.
SPEAKER_03:So you've got like 10,000 connections on LinkedIn. I think so.
SPEAKER_01:I should fact-check that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Just to kind of dig deeper into the LinkedIn process because it sounds like that's where you get a lot of your wins from. How did you build up to 10,000 connections? Was there like a an active kind of habit that you had to build those profiles, like a KPI, like every person I see, I add, or you know, well, what how did you build up to 10,000 connections on LinkedIn?
SPEAKER_01:So it's 10,000, but I also have been quite targeted. Well, it's maybe 10,000. I should, I really should have checked that. But thereabouts, I'm really targeted in who I'm reaching out to and connecting with as well. So I'm not just accepting every single person. And so it's like filler, it's really about connecting with the right people. So that I always explain it, it's like um when you want to buy shoes, like when people are sending you an email marketing message, an EDM, they are sending you a shoe. Here's our shoe sale, here's our shoe sale. You're not gonna buy shoes off them every time. But when you do, when you are ready to buy shoes, that's the company you're gonna think of first. So that's kind of how I think about recruitment. Like you want to be front of mind and it's about building that awareness and engagement from the audience. Um, so yes, absolutely. Anyone I meet with, anyone I am planning on reaching out to, I'll send them a LinkedIn connection so they kind of see who I am first. Or um, just generally, if there's a candidate that looks good that feels like it's the sort of person that would be within my talent pool, then I'm gonna send them a connection. I aim to, where possible, follow that up and just do a little bit of a, hey, this is who I am, this is what I recruit. If there's ever, if you're ever in need of some support, feel free to reach out, happy to help. Like quite light initially, if it's not an urgent sort of, I want to talk to you about this role. Um, and then yeah, just trying to give back constantly. So then when you do need to call that person, they already know who you are.
SPEAKER_03:So for someone who's just starting out their career and they're going, Oh God, I wish I was in Nat's position where like candidates would come to me because no candidates come to me, everything is outbound. What would that strategy be for them? Just connect with every single person that you're thinking of talking to.
SPEAKER_01:I think like if you're doing a search and there's 30 people that you're wanting to reach out to and a message, connect with them. Like you can see it in LinkedIn Recruiter. You can open another window, it's like public page, connect. Like, and then it's like quite targeted. They're gonna see that you've got a message from you at the same time, so it's not totally random. And it good, it's organic. It's not obviously overnight.
SPEAKER_03:Now that you mentioned that, it I I am reminded what my process used to be, you know how you've got like 20 LinkedIn in in mails or something when you've got just the the low version of the LinkedIn recruiter?
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:So I think when I first started um my agency, I was very cost conscious and I didn't want to get like the U-Boot LinkedIn license that you got like 80 emails a month. I only had like 20 or something like that. And so rather than sending 20 in mails waiting for people to respond, I would create my in mail message and connect with them and use that as the connection message. So I would have way many more opportunities to like pitch what I'm trying to reach out to them for. Plus, I'd also get the advantage of getting a connection. Um, so is it just I I just thought of that as soon as you started kind of going through that process around connecting and sending you know 50 emails and then trying to connect with those 50 people, kind of same same process.
SPEAKER_01:I feel like a lot of recruiters kind of forget all the feedback that we give candidates about their LinkedIn profile. And it should be like when you're connecting with someone, it should be quite clear why you're connecting with them. You're a specialist in their space, you've been recruiting for similar roles, you whatever. And so if your LinkedIn profile is detailed or whatever, then they should want to connect with you because you're a potential contact for them. Um, if you're just being totally random and connecting with every CEO, sure, maybe that doesn't make sense. Um, so definitely focusing on your candidate pool first and then those clients or prospective clients as well that you've done a BD call with or you've invited to a meeting, etc. There's that's the time to be doing it when it makes sense, not just like a spray and pray at the same time.
SPEAKER_02:What a question for you, because obviously um you've been in your market such a long time, connected with a lot of candidates along the way. Do you have any strategy to stay connected with them on an ongoing basis? Because obviously you have so many, it's impossible to do that.
SPEAKER_01:It's very hard. Yeah. I try to keep engaged on LinkedIn. And that's actually much better for like the algorithm side of things as well, in terms of if you're engaging with content, um, rather than just pushing content out all the time, if you're actually engaging and being like a positive member of the network, then you're gonna have better um like impressions, etc. I'm not a digital whiz, but um so I think where possible when you're scrolling on the train or in an Uber or whatever, just taking the time to like, hey, that's an awesome campaign, love that, or hey, congrats on the promotion or something. It doesn't have to be big, intensive stuff. It could be like, hey, I sure saw this article, I thought you might be interested, or we've got this event, I thought you might be interested. Um, that kind of thing. You can actually um God now I've got to think about it. On your network tab on LinkedIn, there's like keep up or keep in touch or catch up or something, and you can see all of the candidates who have hit three years or have just been promoted or whatever, and so you get like a filtered view of the feed as well. And that can be an easy way if you're very time poor to keep in touch and just have those prompters to call those people as well.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, okay. So a way that you keep candidates engaged is you'll go, Congrats on your new year anniversary, congrats on this, congrats on that. Okay, that's really interesting because I sometimes don't do that at all. I sometimes think it's it's really hard. Like on a when they've done the post and it's just AI generated, it's like congrats, Matt Rocket. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Matt Cossins talks about trigger events. What's the trigger event that a uh that a candidate or a client does that gives you the the habit to go, oh trigger event, time to reach out.
SPEAKER_01:Or even if you see that they're open to new opportunities, if you are doing a search and they're not quite right for this role specifically, like taking the two minutes to give them a buzz, two minutes, five minutes, ten minutes, whatever, to give them a buzz then and there, or reach out, just be like, hey, it's been ages since we've spoken. I thought I'd just check in and see how Coca Cola is treating you or whatever. Just I find making a habit of those little incremental three minutes here and there, rather than I'm gonna block out half of my Friday to. To do candidate reconnection. Like I find that quite hard to block in that big chunk of time. But if you're doing it in the moment, it kind of makes more sense. Or if you do post a role and they've applied, they're not quite right for this. But yeah, it's been ages that I would check in, et cetera, and try to keep the habit that way.
SPEAKER_03:Fact check. I I have your LinkedIn. Oh, really? Can we take a guess? Yeah. 10,115. And Nat, what do you think it is specifically?
SPEAKER_01:10,342.
SPEAKER_03:Nat is closest. Oh, you hope so. Well done, Nat. Um, well, I can only see followers.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, followers, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So it's 11,955 followers. Okay, cool. So, first fact check of Confessions of Ruke live on the spot. Hopefully that goes down well. Talk to us about then what the perfect candidate pipeline looks like when you get a brief from it from a client. How do you engage them? How do you brief them on the role? And then what's kind of like the perfect timeline to getting an outcome?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and also kind of like weave in their experience, right? So you long list 30 people, how often do you update and things like that?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know that I have like a formula. I just try and give everyone the time that it takes to have a good conversation. I don't want to be transactional in my approach. I think you also have to gauge on where they're at in terms of their journey as well. And so if someone is passive and now's not the right time to have that conversation and be like, okay, what would it have to look like if you're going to make a move? And what does the timing look like for you based on your own situation? Um, but in terms of like, I probably spend 10 to 15 minutes on an initial brief, about an hour in an interview, and I do I do a lot of coaching and a lot of feedback in my interviews, um, and then setting them up for the interview with a client. Like I'll give them really detailed brief, etc. Is that what you mean?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think so. Let's talk about the coaching piece then, because I think you mentioned previously that's something you'll you're big on. Tell us a bit about your if you have a process or what how you approach it.
SPEAKER_01:I'm very, very, very passionate about it. And I feel like it's a real missed opportunity if people aren't gonna do that with their candidates for a couple of different reasons. One, like you want to set them up for success. Two, it sets you up as that trusted advisor who really wants to help them out. And three, like they're more likely to do a good job at interview and therefore you're more likely to place them, and they're gonna have a good experience with you and the company overall. So there's like a few different reasons that you should be doing it if you're not. But at the start of every interview, I will talk through how I would recommend they set up an interview plan. And that's, I think, especially important because as we know, interviews now can be super loosey-goosey and just tell us about yourself and you have to be able to fill in the blanks and understand what they want to hear when maybe it's your first interview in three years or five years, or maybe you, you know, you've been like come missing out on a bunch of processes, and so clearly there's something wrong with what you're doing. And then I will give them coaching in the moment along the way. So I always say, think of it like a funnel. I do those hands every single time. Um, and so who the business and what do they do? Like if you're saying I work for Joe blogs, that's not the same as saying Coca-Cola, and people may not know who they are, what they do, what category they play within, et cetera. Are they a startup? Are they a$30 million business, whatever? So some of that context. Um, and then what does it mean to be a head of marketing or a senior brand manager within that business, especially when um titles are so interchangeable, or like what we're seeing in my space, is they mean different things within different businesses too. So really articulating this is the scope or the remit of my role, and then being able to set the scene in terms of this is what I inherited stepping into the role and this was my job to do. So again, this is a bit FMCG, but was the brand or the category in growth or decline? What was driving that? Like you have to remember the person sitting opposite you does not work in that business. They're not across what's happening within a category that they're not specialized within. Um, and then, you know, highlighting some of those problems and then giving using that as like an agenda of a meeting to make it really clear, and then giving examples to talk about how you unlocked those problems or how you unlocked growth based on that situation within that circumstance action result framework. And so I'll talk to them about that at the start. And I'll say that's the sort of process that we'll run through. And I don't expect it to be perfect, so don't worry, we're gonna work through that together. But that's what I want you to be planning in the back end. Um, and then that's the structure that I'll usually do my interviews in. So they're quite in-depth. I sometimes get people go, Oh, I didn't realize this was gonna be a real interview. And I'm like, yeah, that's the whole point of today, um, which is a bit of a learning on my part. I have to tell them to prepare as if you were meeting for a client, which is something I've started doing. And then I really help them to workshop and frame it and like give them positive feedback along the way, or maybe you want to reshape it like this. And so it's not telling them what to say, but more about the structure. And I think that's how you stop them from being overcoached or being robotic. But it helps them to understand the structure and the flow and also giving them context as to why. Because again, I don't understand what it looks like. Uh the person interviewing you is gonna just fill in the gaps based on what it looks like in their business if you don't give them that context. If they don't understand the context of what you stepped into and you just jump into my key achievement in this role was this, it's like cool, but it's like starting a movie halfway through and you don't have any of that understanding of why you ended up like why that was such a big deal, or why that's transferable experience to the challenges that they have or the role that they need this person to do. And so it's about removing any of that like risk or assumptions along the way. Because as you guys know, like when you're interviewing someone, you're trying to assess them for a role. Are they gonna get along with Sarah that they're gonna be working with? Are they this? Are they that? What's my next question? Do I understand that? And if someone's doing all that in the back of their minds, they're not actually listening to what you're saying. They're trying to like fill in the gaps. And I always say, like, someone might not want to ask those second and third questions where they're supposed to be the authority in the room and they're gonna sound like an idiot if they ask for clarity. And so it's about giving them all of that context so that you kind of interview yourself, um, again, in an authentic and genuine way and not sounding like a robot. And so it's so clear to that person how you unlocked those challenges or how you could bring that to the table. And if you do that really well, you can really avoid the tell me about a time when that people really hate, like because you've been showing how you unlocked stakeholders who are blockers in the process in terms of the examples that you're giving, etc., and they can hear your point of difference versus other candidates that you're coming up against who have different experience to you. So, how do you elevate yourself and give, make it really clear to articulate who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_03:Has that ever gone the opposite way that you expected? I I used to possibly not come from a coaching angle, but more of a telling them what to say angle in interviews. And so I I used to always use a couple of throwaway lines when I'm prepping candidates for an interview. And for context, I did sales recruitment. So I would always say, and you you mentioned it just before, um, treat this like you're going to meet with a really painful client that will make you work for every dollar you get out them, get out of them, but they will still give you the, you know they'll give you the deal at the end. So go in with this like framework or this mindset of I've really got to be on my toes to overcome objections and sell, but I know I'll get the deal. A few times I've prepped candidates and gone, go in there, tell them you're a hunter, you're all about new business, you're this, you're that, you're this. And they were those things, but sometimes they need to hear it from the recruiter to say, say this out loud, because if you don't say this specifically, then you know they're not gonna assume it. And I've done that a few times where the client has come back to me and gone, I'm never using you as a recruiter again. And I've gone, oh, why that? I'm like, why? Because you over briefed them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You told them what to say in the interview. Yeah. And then it's also bitten me on the on the back where the candidate doesn't get the job, and then they come back and go, Well, you told me to say that. I said it. Now I don't have the job. I should have said what I wanted to say, I would have got the job. Now I'm going back to the client and telling them. So there is a learning there, right?
SPEAKER_02:And it is to approach it in a coaching capacity, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So it's the framework, not the this is what you should say.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I always make a real point of telling people it's really important in your set. So I also give them lots of CV feedback as well when I'm doing that. Um, and it's really important to bring yourself to the forefront. It's about like if if they're gonna give you a tell me about yourself two minutes, everyone loves those. Um, like make sure you're bringing your own personality, and that should be the same in your CV. Like, bring yourself to it. I can't give you the answer. I'll give them tips around these are some um like skills and experience questions to be prepped for in terms of they want to see someone who's entrepreneurial and is gonna take ownership and is gonna have initiative, and so you should be highlighting that along the way. And bring that to the forefront, but not necessarily like say this.
SPEAKER_02:So you you mentioned um the the candidates dropping out. I I I part of it is because of the seniority of the roles you do and you know the probably the the the way you've managed the candidates up to this point. But do you think part of why you have a good hit rate or stick rate is because of the the depth you go to in that process? Do you have people pull out before the process even starts because of how seriously you're taking it? And the reason I asked this, I used to, if a candidate was a bit flaky, I'll be like, I think I'm gonna pull you out of the process for X reason. I'd call it. And it was quite confrontational.
SPEAKER_03:You'd call their bluff and you'd hope that they'd know mad.
SPEAKER_02:And then some most of the time they go, yeah, okay, I'll put it. And I'd call it, but it was um, it's a delicate one, right? Because you know, you could get it wrong.
SPEAKER_01:I think if it's clear at the end of the interview that they're not right for this specific role, I'll give them that feedback to say, I think there's other candidates with stronger XYZ experience. And so for this one, I actually don't think it's gonna be quite right, but let's talk about what is important to you in the next role and what does excite you and what you want more of or less of or whatever, um, so I can get a really clear gauge on you know what sorts of roles I should be talking to them about. Or I'll just generally be giving them, like, because I've set it up as a coaching conversation, it's like this is how you should set yourself up for success in your job search. And for example, like whatever the context is, like you're trying to move industries and you want a salary jump and you want to level up in in title or whatever, um, to give them some coaching around, I don't think that's gonna set you up, you know, in terms of success. You have to think about who you're coming up against. And so I think potentially if you try to do, there's two different directions. You could go for a um same, same industry, same category, uplift in title, uplift in salary this direction. But if you want to do this and move into tech or something, you know, totally left of center, you might need to move for side, step in salary, etc. And so it's again, it's being like a trusted advisor rather than a I'm not putting you forward for this role. Sometimes I give people all the coaching in the world and they still like have their script and how they want to deliver it, and you just sort of have to be cool. Um, but yeah, maybe for whatever reason they're not the right person to put forward for that role in that case.
SPEAKER_02:But do you outline right at the front end with your candidates this is what the experience with me is gonna look like? We're gonna do this, we're gonna do why, we're gonna do a feedback session, we're gonna prep for it in this way, or is it just organic how it kind of builds out?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think because I've been doing it since the dawn of time, um, I it's pretty organic at this point and it's just how I do it. But I always tell my candidates in that situation, like, I'm gonna give you feedback along the way to set you up for success or whatever. Like it's not ill intent or whatever. And I think I approach it in a way where it's like, I want you to be successful. I'm not telling you that you're bad or whatever. I'm trying to get you to sing about your own achievements and your own wins. Like a lot of the time I'll say something like, I actually think you're being too humble and you're not talking about what you owned as part of that. And so helping them to build that confidence as well, I think plays a part in it. That yeah, it's just kind of organic.
SPEAKER_02:I was all I'm curious about the when you get feedback from a candidate after an interview, how much time you spend there. Because I've been guilty of it and they're like, It went really well, what do they say? And and you you skim over some of the things you could really use for other interviews. How in depth do you go post-interview feedback with a candidate?
SPEAKER_01:I think it depends on the candidate. Some people are like blood from a stone, as we know. And so they don't give you much, but I think always like, how do you think it went? What are some of the questions they asked you? Any hesitations or concerns or question marks about the role, like after this first conversation, which I think is a good way to start to understand if there's anything that's gonna maybe trip you up down the line, or potentially you need to give the client some context around they're gonna want to explore this a little bit more, or they've got a little bit of a question mark here. If you're keen on them, we should deep dive into that a little bit more or give them some more information about this. Maybe between three and ten minutes or so, it depends on sort of how chatty they are. But I try to have consistency in terms of the questions I'm asking them to understand. Is there gonna be any blockers? Like, are there hesitations, reconfirming, you know, salary expectations, reconfirming if they're in process with other roles, if anything's changed since we last spoke, anything that I can do to remove the risk from the process uh along the way and trying to be really consistent about that and just it's just how I do it, rather than you know, a script or whatever.
SPEAKER_03:So you're methodic on prepping and um doing like a post feedback call with candidates. What about prepping clients? How do you see that fitting in on knowing that the client is doing a good job in the interview and getting them to say the right things to the candidates and getting them to sell themselves? Because as we know at the moment, candidates are really hard to just get stuck in like not for you specifically, but um just but I'm but I'm but I'm finding a lot of recruiters that I'm speaking to, there's there's a challenge on getting the candidate interested. Maybe there's a bit of fear in the market, do I want to change jobs right now, et cetera? Um, and then getting the client to impress them enough to get them over the line. So the long version or the short version of that, sorry, is do you prep clients before interviews? Uh, and what level of um deep dive do you do post-interviews with your clients to try and make candidates more sticky?
SPEAKER_01:I definitely have that experience. So that's not to say that that doesn't happen, but in terms of people not showing up for interviews, that's like I said, not something that comes up that much. But in terms of I want to leave for the perfect thing, I'm not just gonna leave for an extra 5k or I'm not gonna leave for this. I do a lot of work with my candidates around understanding that firstly, so that I can really highlight that when I'm briefing them in on the roll. Sure, it's maybe 20 minutes early, late longer than you want to drive, but it's gonna tick this, this, this, this, this box. And so they're pretty interested because it ticks those boxes and I've, you know, briefed them in based on that, firstly. From the client's perspective, I actually think that's something that we forget as recruiters in terms of we interview five, 10 people a week, and some clients are only doing it once every 18 months or two years or whatever. Uh, so I've got a pack that I pull together, uh, which is like a best practice interview guide that I give to some clients where, you know, it's a smaller business, they don't have a HR team, they might need that support, some inspiration around questions like um, you know, whether that's behavioral-based questions or like it's important to outline your EVP. Uh, it's important to outline um, you know, what career progression might look like in the role, like this is how you should be selling the business. It's a two-way street. So I pull that together as a little value add. I'll sometimes just send that to a can a client who is talking about a role that they're doing direct with their internal team and they can't use us right now. Like send them to them then, because it's no extra work for me. Um but then also in the brief, I'm really clear about um, these are the types of candidates I'm expecting that we're gonna be seeing. Like here's profile one, here's profile two, here's profile three, like a more junior person from a bigger business, a more senior person who's wanting to step up into whatever, whatever. Um, so that they have a clear understanding of what those candidates are gonna look like. But then these are gonna be the challenges of this role, or it's a great role for whatever reasons, but this is why it's gonna be challenging. So it's really important for you to be able to demonstrate blah, blah, blah. This is what's important to these candidates. So whether that's sending through like a market insights guide, which talks about, in my world, like a senior brand manager is gonna want a step up in terms of ownership, a direct report, or this learning and development, so they know what's important to those candidates. When I send the CVs through, I'm also saying like ideal role, title, but also like they want to step up into a role with more ownership. They are keen to take on a leadership responsibility over time or whatever. So they also have that when they're interviewing them and they can maybe talk to that. In probably in second round, when I have those insights from the first round about those hesitations or concerns, that's when I'd maybe flag it. But I also try and um I also try and ask for more in-depth feedback as well, rather than just like no, not right based on culture fit. Like, is there something we can actually go back to them with in terms of some insights or some feedback about how they could do better next time so that you're actually able to give them something tangible when you're rejecting them for the process?
SPEAKER_02:It's tough, wasn't it? Because clients or you just sometimes take the path of least resistance and just say there's someone more suited for the role. And it's not actually beneficial for your candidate to hear that. So it's a delicate place.
SPEAKER_03:That's a great question. How often do you give them a throwaway line versus the in-depth feedback? You can say never.
SPEAKER_01:I think we all get busy. Oh, it's real though. It's real. Like, imagine just hearing like culture fit. Like, that's such an annoying thing to hear, and it's so subjective. So I do try and get some additional context to give them something to walk away with, because like that's a that's a shitty thing to hear. Just it's culture fit, even though that might be what they give you. So I do try and push back. At the very least, I will say, at this stage, we're not progressing through to next steps. I'm gonna deep dive and get some more context, but I just wanted to round out the loop for you so that they're not sitting there waiting for good feedback. Um, so at the very least, I'm saying I'll try and get some more context. At this stage, I haven't got it because you're you're only speaking to the talent acquisition person and they don't have that detail. They're just saying it's a no for this person. Um, yeah, I try I try as a lot of people. I think it's prepped themselves.
SPEAKER_02:It must be nothing worse than hearing hearing cultural fit. That's just your personality, basically, isn't it? That's how they're it's a hard one. It's a hard one.
SPEAKER_01:I try to, I try to not give that as feedback. I try to say like they felt as though the other candidates were more well aligned because. And so it's like this this is the other people that you're out up against. And I think a lot of candidates forget that they're up against other people that have different experience.
SPEAKER_03:So if recruiters could take away one key lesson from this episode, what should it be?
SPEAKER_01:Invest into your candidate pool. They are your product at the end of the day. The more you invest in them, the more trust they will have with you, the more you're able to influence them down the line, and the more they're gonna want to work with you and be your promoter and like refer you work, refer you candidates, be okay with the fact that it's maybe been a little bit too long in between, reconnects, etc., or they'll want to partner exclusively with you or whatever. So I think the more that you invest and like don't act in a transactional kind of way, the better, always.
SPEAKER_03:Love that.
SPEAKER_01:Play the long game.
SPEAKER_03:Now, all right, so we're up to a very exciting part of the Confessions podcast, and it's the game, Are You Smarter Than Ed? So, Natalie, I'm just gonna give you an opportunity to let us know. Do you think you're smarter than Ed?
SPEAKER_01:No. Yeah, I think we're equally smartly smart.
SPEAKER_03:Well, all right. I don't have 10,000 connections, that's all I know.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know anything about football.
SPEAKER_02:So if that's what I'm saying, there was one episode about football. We're going purely about recruitment stuff now. Okay. And they're so abstract or it's just a LUT.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, okay. Rule of the game, your buzzer is your name. It's a multiple choice question. So I'll ask the question and then I'll give the four answers A, B, C, or D. If you say your name before I finish, I will stop the question and then you'll answer. If you get it right, we move on. If you get it wrong, I'll finish saying the answers and then the next person's able to buzz in. Are we all in agreement to the rule of the name?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you can just say your name and it stops everything and you can just guess. Yes. Right, correct. Okay. Q, who wants to be a millionaire music?
SPEAKER_03:Which recruitment agency is known as the world's largest? A. Randstad. B. Ransad. Correct.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I would have called Hayes.
SPEAKER_03:Because they are the world's largest.
SPEAKER_01:Are they? Yeah. Told you I've drunk of Kool-Aid. I think I'm six degrees. Six degrees.
SPEAKER_03:Hayes operates in how many countries? A 10. B 33. C 50. D 70.
SPEAKER_01:Nat. Nat 33.
SPEAKER_03:Is that right? I actually thought it'd be more than that, to be honest. I'm obviously the host, so I can't participate. But when I read these answers, I go, what is the most uncommon number in these? Specific. Because it's got 10, 33, 50, 70, and it's like, okay, it must be 33. Yeah, odd one out. Is that what you thought? Yeah. Yeah, okay. Robert Half specializes primarily in which sector? A. Healthcare. B, accounting and finance. Ed. Accounting and finance. Yes, I knew.
SPEAKER_02:Oh god.
SPEAKER_01:I'm not clearly not good at recruitment.
SPEAKER_03:No, you just don't know the question.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know the big ones. I would have guessed that maybe.
SPEAKER_03:Let's ask a six degrees one. Approximately, how many global job openings were there in 2024? According to the International Labour Organization. Let's just choose the most obscure number. A 100. Oh sorry. A 100 million.
SPEAKER_01:I was about to say short jobs.
SPEAKER_03:That's your jobs. B 192 million. C 250 million. D 300 million.
SPEAKER_01:Ed. You can have it, you can have it now.
SPEAKER_03:You can have it. B 192. It's the most obscure number. Surge we should write these questions better. Okay, last and final question to who is smarter than Ed. Why has the number of unadvertised jobs decreased compared to the pre-internet era? Is that possible? Ed.
SPEAKER_02:How can we are the advertised jobs decreased? Oh no, okay, I get it. It's basically saying why are there why is there more advertised jobs than there was before the internet? Okay. Because the internet exists.
SPEAKER_03:A. Job boards are now free. B. Employers can afford to advertise more easily. C, fewer companies exist today. D. Recruitment agencies no longer exist. D, gone up.
SPEAKER_02:B. B. Yes, I'm medicine B as well.
SPEAKER_01:Recruitment agencies no longer exist.
SPEAKER_03:Well done. Well done. I love that. Well, Nat, thank you so much for coming on Confessions of a Recruiter. If anyone wants to reach out to you, learn more about how you coach candidates, do your candidate experience, or they just want to shoot the breeze with you, how do they get in contact?
SPEAKER_01:LinkedIn, probably the easiest way, Natalie Rogers.
SPEAKER_03:Natalie Rogers, six degrees.
SPEAKER_01:At six degrees, yeah. All your FMCG recruitment needs.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01:That wasn't as scary as I thought it would be.
SPEAKER_02:No, that was good.