Confessions of a Recruiter
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Confessions of a Recruiter
Mastering Candidate Experience: Technology | COAR S2-E4
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A near million-dollar blue collar desk, a life jump to Japan, a return to Melbourne during COVID, and a pivot into tech and enterprise accounts, Ena Colo has lived the full recruitment rollercoaster. We sit down and unpack what actually works when you’re trying to build a long-term career in recruitment, not just hit this month’s number.
We talk about the difference between reactive recruiting and a true account director approach: becoming a single point of contact, earning trust across talent acquisition and line managers, and doing the relentless groundwork before the market “tap” turns on. Anna shares how she measures success through account growth, how she runs 15+ client meetings a week when needed, and how that effort compounds when hiring freezes lift and roles finally flow.
From the delivery side, we get practical on standards and alignment. Why sending two excellent CVs beats uploading six average ones, how to tighten feedback loops with delivery consultants, and what the one percenters (formatting, spelling, rate clarity, super) do to your credibility. We also go deep on employer branding, managing expectations when a client has a poor reputation, coaching hiring managers to move faster, and keeping candidates engaged with clear communication and personalised outreach.
If you want better candidate experience, stronger client relationships, and a more consultative recruitment style, you’ll take plenty from this chat. Follow the show, share it with a recruiter mate, and leave a review, what’s one recruiting standard you refuse to compromise on?
· Our Website is: xrecruiter.io
elcome And Guest Introduction
SPEAKER_00We're back with Confessions of a Recruiter and we're joined by Anna Holo.
SPEAKER_03Walked out halfway through and like this is not for me. They called me back, going, I think you'd be great. As a recruiter, I resigned our CEO of the time ripped up my resignation letter and his best French accent. No, you will go to Melbourne. You need to get your together and you will love it. That desk got to 986,000. It was hectic. When I deal with candidates, the most important thing. I'm here to build a relationship with you. Whether it's a client or a candidate, you need to make sure that they see what is their why.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I love that. Thank you for joining us, Anna.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00Anna, you've got a really interesting background, and I did um put it forward in an interesting way before and said don't do it like that. So rather than me butchering it, uh, why don't we spend a couple of minutes uh you sharing about your journey and some of your achievements and what you've worked on in your recruitment career?
alling Into Recruitment By Accident
inding The Right Desk In Melbourne
uilding A Near Million Dollar Desk
eturning In COVID And Switching To Tech
hat An Account Director Does
SPEAKER_03Yeah, definitely. Look, I, like everyone else, probably fell definitely into it, went to an interview with an agency, um, walked out halfway through. I was like, this is not for me. And they called me back, going, I think you'd be great as a recruiter. That's kind of where it started off. Um, this was up in Newcastle. We moved up there for my partner's work. So I knew it wasn't a long-term thing. Six months in, absolutely hate it. I was doing business support. I was like, this is so boring. It was numbing. The day that we found out we were moving back to Melbourne, I resigned. Um, our CEO at the time, we had this really, really amazing French guy, Frank, happened to be in the office visiting, and he was in his best French accent, ripped up my resignation letter. No, you will go to Melbourne, you will settle down for two weeks, and then you will meet with our office. Um, and I was like, no, Frank, like I actually hate this, like I have zero passion for it. And he's like, no, no, no, you need to get your shit together and you will love it. So I moved down to Melbourne. Anyway, he organized for someone to call me, to pop in, meet with them. Um, and I again landed in business support, had an amazing lead. I that was probably the only reason I stayed there. But we were situated in the same office um as our manufacturing blue collar team, and I just kept looking over to the other side and I was like, this just looks so much more exciting than what I'm doing. And um, a couple of months down the track, there were some movements in a team, opportunity came up, and I put my hand up for it. Um, and honestly, that's where I fell in love with it. I ran a really, really successful um blue collar desk. I inherited um a really good client. There was a couple of clients that were on a smaller scale that we had really high terms with at the time. Um, one of them was in particular looking to leave. Um, we had a competitor that went in like significantly lower rates. And this guy was like, why are we paying you 15%? You know, and unheard of, like in blue-collar side of things. I think we had about 15 temps there, and I was like, mate, let me give you the love that you need, and you'll know why we, you know, charging what we're charging. Um, essentially, I think within sort of the next six to nine months, build that up to about 50 temps just with that particular client, as well as this other global client that I had that did seasonal um recruits of about 80 to 90 staff at a time. Um, what happened at the time was my partner got a business opportunity for us to move to Japan. So that desk got to 986,000 um billing a year, which was unheard of, that never had um essentially a million-dollar desk in the blue-collar space. And um, I probably spent about six weeks kind of going, do I leave? I want to get to that million. Like we had this opportunity to live in Japan, and I was like, when am I gonna do that ever again? So the CEO at the time was still the French guy, um, was there and um he called up our Tokyo office and he's like, This is what's happening. I need you to find space for it. I didn't speak Japanese, so couldn't make it happen. So I took a step back, took the opportunity to leave me, leave overseas and you know have that experience. When I came back, um Rain said called me back after a couple of years after I had my kids. They said, we want you to come back. This was during those COVID times, but I had to step into a team leader role during COVID in Melbourne. You guys are from Brisbane, so you wouldn't have known this, but literally it was like managing working permits. It was a different ball game. So spent um, I'd probably say better under a year in that space, then moving into a branch manager role, fell out of love with the blue-collar side of things. It just wasn't what I remembered it to be the fast-paced, fun, engaging side of things. Um, and then got poached to and asked to step into managing the tech team in our CBD office. So took that opportunity. That's such a different move. Completely different. And I was actually considering leaving the business at the time altogether. Um, had a quite a small team. There was a few internal changes that happened. Another team leader um decided to go back into a billing role. I inherited his team. This was at the peak of COVID or the back end. Um, and then I had to grow the team. So it was full-blown scale of recruitment, getting the delivery support. Um, we scaled that quite quickly. So I went from having three people up to 12 within two years. But I just didn't love the leadership side of things. Like I didn't have the jaw, and I think it's it was a really challenging time post-COVID. A lot of people were suffering from a lot of mental health issues, um, as well as many other things. Like, and I was always an individual biller. Like, I love working with a team, but I think when you're responsible and your personal outcomes depend on other people's achievements, I couldn't control that. And that didn't really sit well with me. Um, so I was like, you know what, I enjoy the tech side of things. I'm gonna look at getting maybe into tech sales. Then um Davidson poached me, and then they were talking about a few different roles, and over the next couple of months, we were going back and forth, and they created this account director role, um, which was everything that I loved, being in front of the client, servicing the client, being able to manage the recruitment side um or the candidate side of things without being stuck to a desk. So I was able to be in front of the client all day um and manage and make sure that they, you know, got the best experience.
SPEAKER_00So that was going to be my next question is like what is fantastic summary of your career, by the way. Um, an account director, specifically what do they do? Like what what what is your success measured on as an account director?
SPEAKER_03Growth of accounts. So essentially, um with RainSat had the same model, um, and Davidson started implementing that similar model. So you might have contracts and agreements, you know, with uh large businesses, and often, you know, people said as in you look at a big four bank as an example. Where do you start with the case? Like, you know, you know, most recruiters that I know would be like, call the TA team and hey, I'm your expert in this, you know, can we get a meeting? And any TA that you know would be like, oh gee, like another person's moving to that desk, you know, third person in 18 months, whatever it is. So I think account directors is more of a holistic approach. It's hey, I'm your one point of contact. This is what we represent, this is everything we have to offer. Any issues that you have, deal with me. Now, if you look at a as an example again, Big Four Bank, they're gonna have like 50 to 70 people that work in the in talent acquisition. How do you manage that? How do you make sure that your name's known?
SPEAKER_01So predominantly the talent team would be connecting with you, or line would be connecting with you as well.
SPEAKER_03Different businesses have different models. So, um, you know, if I specifically talk about um the client that I managed, was it was a bit of both. So they had an internal team that dealt with agencies based on their performance and relationships, essentially, that was on contract and permanent side of things. But a lot of it was driven by line managers. So again, how do you get in front of that? So I think probably for sort of six to nine months, I was doing on an average 15 plus meetings with this client. And it was starting at the bottom and Bill going, okay, let's meet with you. Who works on the business side, who works on the tech side, who else should I get in front of? And I would never leave a meeting with at least two names and then call that person and go, hey, so-and-so recommended we catch up. I don't spend a lot of time on the phone. For me, it's like, let's catch up, let's have a coffee, and I'll fill you in.
SPEAKER_01So you've been pretty proactive in the business of very much so.
urning Coffee Meetings Into Roles
wo Great CVs Beat Six
SPEAKER_03Like it the BD side of thing was intense. Like I was exhausted, and there was days, you know, people would cancel and they're like, nothing's happening, nothing's happening. And I remember it was like seven, eight months into that role, and like, you know, it only picked up a few roles. Um, and you know, everyone was lovely, everyone wanted to catch up, everyone wanted to get a free coffee, it was amazing, but there just wasn't nothing coming back. And um, I had this senior leader in our business, she I bumped into her while I was making her tea, and she's like, chin up. She's like, it will all pay off. And this was when the market started turning, you know, when a lot of the internal roles um uh uh were filled internally, I should say, or there was um, you know, just hiring freeze. She's like, once the tap is on, she's like, you know, they will call you. And honestly, like two months later, the tap turned on. And it was hectic. And then from there, essentially, I was like, well, the team that I work with that supported the candidate engagement side of things. I was like, well, what do we now need to do to make sure that we prove that we are what we say we are? Jobs will come to me, the clients would call me going, all right, you've bought me three coffees in the last nine months. I've got this requirement, let's talk. So I'd get the brief, if possible, you know, I'd get the delivery team to attend those meetings with me. Um, and essentially just make sure we've got a clear understanding. The directive between myself and the delivery team was I don't want to be another agency that's uploading six CVs. Ultimately, we're dealing with very, very busy hiring managers. They don't want to be looking at, they don't have the time to look at six CVs from three agencies. You know, what we want to do is give them two of the best where they're literally going to call us and go, I can't pick. Who do you recommend? And we had this. I reckon 50% of the time we would have hiring managers call us with that issue. They're like, you've sent us two of the best. So that was something that I could really pride myself on. The team really understood the business. And I think that's the most important thing. You've got to understand what the business wants.
ligning Delivery Through Clear Feedback
SPEAKER_00How did you brief the team to understand the business? Because is that your responsibility or do they have to do their research or something?
SPEAKER_01Because it's suddenly your name on the line now. Your own.
SPEAKER_03It's mine. I take everything like I genuinely treat everything like it's my own business. If my name's attached to it, I treat it like my own business. At the end of the day, I can go from Brainsat to Davidson to Hayes to wherever I go. They're not going to go, Hayes gave me shit CBs. They're going to be like, Enna gave me shit CBs. So if I go from one agency to another, why are they going to use me? It's not like my shitty style of working stayed with one agency. It's going to be my name. So ultimately, a lot of my business and my growth came organically. You know, I'd be like, hey, so-and-so recommended that I reach out to you. You know, I know the candidates that you've placed in their team, they're amazing. I've got this opportunity that's coming up. But it was a lot more, um, I guess on the going back to the account directors, what they do, it's being more proactive. It's not reactive. I've got a requirement. This is what I need. It's about sitting down with them and going, hey, this is more of a consulting approach. What do your next six, 12 months look like? What's the road ahead? What do you need to deliver? What are the challenges that you're facing? What's keeping you up at night at the moment? You know, resourcing-wise, what does that look like? Is it split? Is it recruitment? Is it consulting? Is it offshore? Is it, you know, you've really got to understand you're bringing to everything. Everything. So that's probably where I would say the conversations for me changed a lot. I um also worked quite closely with um a colleague that um sat on the consulting side of the business. And I learned a lot from him because the conversations when you're dealing in the consulting arm, not the recruitment arm, are a lot more long-term around the requirements and the outcomes rather than job, feel, job, feel, which was you know the where I came from being at Randstad. So, you know, reflecting on that two-year period, I think that probably was what paid off a lot better. Um ultimately you need to be able to say when you can and can't deliver and being able to manage all the expectations in between the two.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's really interesting. I've never understood exactly how the dynamic would um pay off between the account director and the delivery team because uh one, it's kind of as you said uh earlier before we started the podcast, it's kind of out of your control what the delivery team come up with. So how do you make sure that the delivery team is aligned on selling the company properly, finding the candidates correctly? Um, what level of influence do you have at that level?
SPEAKER_03Super high. There were two people that I work with um at Davidson, and they were amazing. Funnily enough, um, they both were quite early on in their recruitment careers. And um, I can't take the credit for for them being trained up on their specializations. They had a leader that did that and she did an amazing job. Where I stepped in was is this is this client. So there was one big client, it took about 90% of my time, and then two smaller that, you know, fit in the other 10%. So let's focus on this 90%. This is what they want. Every time a candidate comes up, there was probably three to four things that this particular client wanted. And it was ideally they'd worked in that space before, or as in the industry. So they just knew that we're a bank. If they've worked at this particular bank, they're gonna want and if they can actually consider incoming back here, they know what they're in for. Like, you know, it's if you worked at ANZ and you work at CBA, it's very, very different. You know, just because you worked at ANZ doesn't mean that you're gonna survive at CBA or go to Macquarie and you'll completely fail. You know, it's a different approach. So these guys, I used to spend a lot of time with them at the start, you know, and it was fine-tuning. So it was reflecting on what worked, what didn't, what knowledge they needed. Um, also understanding long-term what the ambition was. So a lot of them actually wanted to get into step into an account management or a 360 type of role. So part of their development plan was you need to get in front of more clients and not just managing the candidate side as you grow. So it would be me also bringing them to a lot of meetings, not necessarily always the first meeting when I'm because meeting a client, because that can be a bit of a overkill. But if I've met with someone, you know, that I regularly catch up every three or six months, I'd bring them along and I'd be like, you know what? Why don't you tell this delivery consultant from your perspective what works and what doesn't? So there was a number of, um, for example, um, business analysts managers that had 30, 40 business analysts that they were managing. What do you look for? What's your style of interview? What what do you like to see on a CV? What don't you? We actually want to help you get ahead. We want to save you time. And when people see that you're actually trying to help them rather than just shove CVs down their throat, they want to work with you and they want to talk. So I'd say to the guys, listen. This is your opportunity to listen and be really curious. There's no time limit. Ask as many questions as you need. You need to walk away and go, I know exactly what this client wants. You might be speaking to a candidate for a different role and go, oh my God, so-and-so would love this candidate, right? So you need to be able to piece all those pieces together. And I think that's really, really important for them to understand that.
SPEAKER_01When the delivery team sources the candidates and they have a short list, do they come back through you to brief you and then you take it to the client? Is that okay?
SPEAKER_03What we would do is um I my my way of working was the expectation, it was always that okay, let's turn this around within 48 hours, if you know, in the most um contracting side of things, but let's catch up. Give me an update at the end of the day. I don't care if it's a text, if it's a team's message, call, whatever you want, let me know how you went. Because if you had no time to find the right candidates or you had no success finding the right candidates, what do we need to do tomorrow to make sure we can meet that 48-hour deadline? And I think if I reflect back on early days, there was some consultants that I worked with where things didn't go right, you know, where there was frustrations on both sides, is it always fell through just on that communication piece. I forgot to call you, I had to rush off, or I got distracted, or whatever it was. Because then you get back to the next day and we're like, we've got to submit TVs today by five o'clock. What have you got for me? Nothing. Oh, I've reached out to this many people, how many have you called? Nothing. And then the follow-ups, there was nothing to, you know, you know, grab and roll with on the day. So yeah, I think you really have to like your team, like even though I wasn't leading that team, like I wasn't their manager, I think just really understanding what the expectation is and where you're working, and making sure that you give clear feedback when things don't work. So there was, you know, early days, there was a lot of feedback. Like I'm I'm very, very particular about the way the CVs look when they get submitted. Spelling mistakes, formatting.
SPEAKER_01Like, mate. It's not aligned perfectly.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely shits me. So I'd go back and I'd be like, okay, you've put in this date day rate, you know, they're expecting a thousand dollars. Is that inclusive or excluding super? Oh, I can't remember. Well, you better fix that because that's gonna be a significant, you know, difference when we put it to the client. Because if they're budgeting for someone that's on a thousand dollars a day, inclusive of super, but then it's not, that's gonna be thousands of dollars over a 12-month contract. So you have to bring that up to their attention straight away. And I think it's important that you have those conversations. But equally, I'd pass that feedback on to their leader. It's like, hey, they've done X, Y, and Z really good. This is sort of where I need them to lift their game. And then they would work with them as well. So it takes a village. Like interesting. Genuinely does. Like you can't do it on their own. Because I had one guy, he was an absolute champion. If I started my own agency tomorrow, I said to him, like, you'd be the first person, like he's got the best work ethic. However, he was so keen to deliver that he always used to miss on those small details that really mattered. And I used to talk to him and give him feedback. And it got to the point I was like, mate, like you need to do better. And he's like, sorry, mate, sorry. Like, you know, he took it well really, you know, took the feedback really well, but the mistakes kept getting repeated. Again, spoke to his manager, said, I need you to work with him. He's amazing. It's just those one percenters, one percenters, because he's so keen to keep going and you know, going and going and deliver. Candidate quality, amazing. Attention to detail. I said, we need to work on that.
epairing Employer Brand With Honesty
SPEAKER_00What about like employer branding? And to give some context on that, like, how often are you having to reposition one of your clients because they've got a bad or poor reputation with candidates? Your delivery team is going, hey, look, people just don't want to work for these people because of X, Y, Z reasons, they got a friend that worked there, whatever. Like, how often are you kind of strategically trying to reposition your clients to sell the candidates and get the candidates more interested in going forward for a role?
oaching Hiring Managers To Move Faster
SPEAKER_03We actually had that back end of COVID. There was a client that we worked with at Rainstead, and they went through a period of time where they had a really bad reputation. So we had to do a lot of this. And the candidate, as soon as you call them, every candidate would be like, nah, don't want a bar of it. They had a really bad reputation. They used to do panel interviews, and there'd be three people online, and they'd all have their cameras off. Um, they were um, they'd never get back to candidate or they'd never get back to agencies with feedback. Um, you know, they were paying slightly below market rate. There was a level of arrogance from their end. So every time we'd engage with them and give them feedback, they're like, well, you know, we're a we're a very well-known brand. People would want to work with us. And we just couldn't place candidates there, simply for that exact reason. They just kept rawning and tarnishing their own brand by simple things. Um so when we would talk to a really suitable candidate for the role, I said to the guys, you need to be upfront and honest. That if you're getting this feedback automatically going, nah. I don't want to work with them. I've heard X, Y, and Z. You need to address that before they give you an opportunity. You need to say, look, I'm conscious they've currently got a bit of a bad reputation. I want to manage the expectation. They're not going to be able to give us feedback within a week, potentially after your interview. Why that is, because the way the process works is it's got to go through talent, then it's going to go through to a hiring manager. If it's not a number one priority for the hiring manager, by time goes back to talent, by time comes back to me. I just want to manage that expectation with you straight away so you know what those challenges are. What your friend told you might have been the experience. Maybe the recruiter didn't explain it clearly to them. But I want to be honest as to where the gaps and the downfalls are. So they're also paying slightly below where the market is at the moment. Let's take your experience into consideration. I know you want$1,000 a day, but realistically, you don't have the experience for someone to be asking$1,000 a day. So let's look at what what's being presented to us. Would you accept this role for$800, potentially ask for a pay rise in six or 12 months' time, work that way up? Kind of, you got to give him a bigger picture. What does the road ahead look like? Do you want to go permanent? Because you'd love to be working there as a permanent. You might not want to work there as a contractor. And then people would look at things differently because you're giving him a different perspective. We're only human. You know, we often get caught up in one thing and we go, You've pissed me off. I don't want to talk to you anymore. Why? Oh, because you pissed me off. And then you come and talk to me and you're like, well, you know, X, Y, and Z played a big part in these, you know, think about that kindness piece. Think about why someone behaved the way they did. And then it kind of you pull back, you look at things differently, and you go, you know what, actually, you are right. Let's consider it. And then you can there's only so much you can do, but I think really you have to manage the expectation. Like I think from start to finish, you need to tell people what they can expect, particularly if you know that a client that you're working with has got a shocking feedback process. Which a lot of the time they do because depending on how many layers of people are involved, you know, if there is internal talent, then if it is a hotline manager and if it is, you know, a senior manager's got to get that approval, it's gonna take weeks. Manage that.
SPEAKER_00How do you kind of influence the client to do better? Like specifically around the interview process, interview coaching, selling the company more effectively, asking more appropriate questions, having that kind of dance and attraction of that candidate, because as we all know, especially with a candidate short market, the it's the employer who sells themselves the best will ultimately get the best candidate. Um, so how do you go about the like the coaching and advisory standpoint for the hiring manager on how to interview better, how to prep, do you like prep the client before the interview so they can ask better questions? What's your experience around that?
SPEAKER_03I generally, when I meet with someone and there is a requirement that we can help them with, I under I need to understand what their process looks like. Someone likes to do meetings straight away, someone will take a bit longer. You need to know what the expectation is in their timelines. So you also need to be realistic with them what the market looks like. Um, a lot of the times you're working with hiring managers that have been in the industry for a really long time. So, oh, I've been here for 15 years. They've got no idea how shit the market is, no idea how hard it is to get a job, no idea how easy, you know, it is to get pissed off when you've submitted 50 applications and no one has come back to you. So for me, it's reversing what I the conversations that I have with the candidates. I talk to the client. So regardless of what that opportunity looks like, is okay, so once we find you the right candidate, what do the next steps look like from you? What does your interview process look like? Who's going to be in that interview with the candidate? Availability. Can we put in a couple of placeholders in your calendar next week? And then I'll try and get some interview slots in there. Can we potentially put in a couple of interview slots for the week after if you're wanting to do a second round interview? And just explaining to that employer branding piece, it's about this will make you stand out by a mile in comparison to another employer that's not doing any of these. Because then when I'm talking to the candidate, I can automatically say we've got time slots locked in for interviews. So we can tell him straight away that, hey, we can expect to lock an interviewer next next week if you are a preferred candidate.
SPEAKER_01Sorry to interrupt, how much can you push back on the client side? Being an account director in one of the banks as an example, because that you've got to keep them happy in many ways. How how much can you push the boundaries of you need to fix your process? I'll do this, but you need to change this.
SPEAKER_03Hiring managers, it depends on your relationship with it. I'm very authentic and I'm very honest. Sometimes it's a strength and sometimes it's a weakness of mine. I think you need to build that trust and relationship with the hiring manager. Like even if I've met you for the first time, I'm going to be brutally honest about the reality of things. And it's not in its reality, it's just that, hey, this is what's going on in the market. You're having these challenges because of X, Y, and Z. Now, if we want to fix that, this is what we need to do. Are you on board or not? Now, in 99% of the situations, the client will be like, yeah, okay. Now, also, if I know that I've got a painful client that I've got a relationship with, I'll be like, mate, like you need to do better, okay, because you're going to lose out this candidate for whatever that reason is. So it comes down to the level of relationships that you have with people. And I think that's where that's where it's really important to build a relationship first. I think the toughest ones that I've had is where an internal talent acquisition team will come and go, I've got a role for so and so, and you can't even reach, get in touch with that hiring manager. And I have I've had some atrocious experiences where we had, you know, really urgent roles that needed to be filled. And then four weeks later, like we didn't even get feedback on CVs that we filled, uh, that we submitted. And you have got no control. So the only thing in those situations is that's we that communication piece with the candidate is you need to tell them, unfortunately, I just need to be very honest with you. This has come to us via a CRM or via an internal talent team. We don't have access to the hiring manager. So I just want to be upfront and honest with you. We are trying to put CBs forward, but I can't give you the exact deadlines or time frames, what that's going to look like. What I can do is get in touch with you once a week and let you know if I've got any updates. If you don't hear from me, it's not because I've forgotten about you. It's genuinely because I have nothing to give to you. And I think if someone said that to me, I would appreciate that honesty.
SPEAKER_01I would appreciate it, but I think I'd be irritated. 100%. You know.
reating Urgency Without People Pleasing
SPEAKER_03But that's what I can control. So that whole piece of focus on what you can control and don't put too much attention on what you can't, but be honest about it.
SPEAKER_00How do you create urgency with the client?
SPEAKER_03You need to understand how urgent it is for them. And then you also need to be honest what's going on with the candidate side of things. How quickly do you want to fill this role? Oh, I want it yesterday. Okay, so how quickly can you book in an interview? Two weeks. Well, is it really urgent? Oh, yeah, you know, it's just that X, Y, and Z. And I said, Well, if you if we've got really good candidates, you're gonna have to move really quickly. It goes back to that piece, managing the client again, putting in those placeholders in their calendar. If you want the good candidate that's interviewing elsewhere, you need to move really fast. You need to give me feedback very quickly. I'm gonna call you at the end of the day, once you've interviewed them, I need to be able to pass that feedback on. You've got to stay on top of them. It that's probably the harder part, managing the client. Well, I shouldn't say it's harder part. I think it's equally hard managing the candidate and the client. Because I think a lot of recruiters that what I've seen is that put so much focus on pleasing the client.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's not always about pleasing. People pleasers don't get far in life. You've got to be able to manage and understand what they want and what they don't want. Do the same on the candidate side of thing, and then you've got to pair the two up.
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ushing Back On Budget And Briefs
SPEAKER_01It's naturally a bit easier to manage the client candidates' expectations. You know, you have a thousand dollars a day they want, client says they'll pay 800, you'll get your client your candidate down to 800. That's how most recruiters do it. So it's a difficult one because you're not really doing the right thing by both parties, you're doing the right thing by your client. So on that, um do you what kind of trying to think of the right way of framing it? When you are taking a brief from the client and you're gonna go and find the candidates, how much do you push back on them and tell them about the market and they're off the mark? Or do you mostly just have to try and find somebody to fit your brief?
SPEAKER_03No. Pushback. You've got to set the expectations clear. You want the best of the best, you're gonna have to pay for that. If you don't have the budget, and it happens often, I completely understand that, you might not get the full package. So let's talk about what's a nice to have, what's a must to have. What can you be flexible on? Sometimes you can get a candidate that's desperate because they've been out of work, the contract's ending, and they're, you know, scared that there's nothing else. They might accept um a lower salary. But a lot of the time, those candidates are not gonna stick. What I've seen a lot of the time is it's like, I'll take it because I need something right now. There is always that fear in a lot of people. And they'll take it. But the minute another recruiter calls them about a role that's paying$50 more a day, they're gonna jump. So you've got to be honest with client and say, well, what's the risk? How's that gonna affect you if they come in and you spend a week training them up? They get on with it, they're doing a really good job, and then they get this call. Oh, I'll see if I can get it$50 a day. And I say, Well, that's honestly honestly, that's kind of insulting. Why wouldn't you give that to them if you think that's what they're worth at the start?
SPEAKER_00Where do you draw the line on that though?
SPEAKER_03I don't think you can. I think you can only be very clear around it. Sitting there in front of the client and wanting to say, I told you so, without actually saying I told you so. And I think that's why it's important to have those conversations up front. Reflecting on my experiences, like you can find someone that might be able to do what they want for what they're willing to pay, but they're not gonna be coming from the same level of experience. So they need to also be realistic as to what they're gonna get for what you pay, essentially. You're not gonna go say, I want a Lamborghini, but you know, my budget's only$10,000, uh$100,000. You're not gonna get it, are you? You kind of get what you pay for, but if you don't have the budgets, let's find the best within that range. Also, it might take a bit longer for us to find you the best of the best. We might have to search the market for a little bit longer to try and find you a few more options. So instead of delivering within 48 hours, can we have three to five days? Are you okay with that? Yes. After five days, let's look at the best, what we've been able to find, who's willing to take on the opportunity, what their reason is, are they the right fit, and then present them and essentially talk.
eeping Candidates Engaged And Responsive
SPEAKER_00So, what do you do to keep the candidates sticky then? Because if if you're moving out the timelines, these candidates, highly paid contractors, there's got recruiters that'll be calling them all the time. How do you make sure that one, they're always engaged, they'll pick up the phone, they'll talk to you, and they won't just end up ghosting you and you'll end up at square one?
SPEAKER_03There's definitely more challenges that I'm seeing with that. And I think there's a lot of factors that play into that. I think in today's day and age, our phones are constantly ringing. And you don't know if it's an unknown number, is it a scammer, is it a bank, is it a marketing company, you know. So I with us, I think going back to the what can we control is I think you need to set the expectation clear with the candidate at the start as to how frequently you're gonna communicate with them. And equally, if you haven't spoken to that candidate, like let's say we've done an outreach on LinkedIn, you've got to personalize that again because you don't want to be one of 50 that's gone out. Say, I'm gonna call you tomorrow. This is my number, just so you know who's calling. Sometimes they might not see their LinkedIn message because a lot of passive candidates don't check their LinkedIn until they have to. And then maybe text them. If they haven't actually answered the call, you've got to text them. I I text, I don't leave voicemails. I hate voicemails personally. I don't hate people leaving for me, especially if it's someone that I know. I'm like, mate, I can see you've called me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Send me a text message. So I'll send you a text message. I'm calling from here. This is who I am, this is what it's about. Let me know if there's a good time to chat. I'll otherwise I'll try later this afternoon, for example. What can you do that? Because I think if you look at your phone, you're always going to see a text message and you go, oh, okay, Blake's try calling me. You know, okay, numbers ending in 936. Easy. If I see a 936 call, I'll pick that up if I want it. Second time you try, if they're not coming back to you, you might go for third, but go, hey, I've tried a few times. I haven't got a response. Give me a shout if you are interested in chatting. If not, just leave it, but manage it really nicely as well.
SPEAKER_01And on that direct outreach piece, like you would be working with your resourcing team in your most recent role. Are you coaching them to how to outreach to potential candidates to personalize an approach, or are you just trusting their judgment and they're going to do it in a certain way that's aligned to whoever your client is?
SPEAKER_03It's a little bit of both. It depends on their experience. There's there's ones that are really good at what they do and they have a really high success rate. You need to coach and train people to understand why they're doing what they've been told to do, or the advice. I don't I don't think anyone should be told what to do, but understand the why behind everything. If I can copy and paste a message and send it out 50 times, what do you think the success rate is? Hey, I've got this really exciting role that you might be interested in based on your experience. Do you want to chat? Now we get those inboxes all the time. I don't want to chat to you. What what excites you about my history? What's the role like? What do you want me to say to that? You know what I mean? So do a little bit of research on someone's profile and go, hey, the only part that I will copy and paste is potentially about the position that I'm representing. Hey, Blake, you know, I came across your profile in my search. I've currently got a role X, Y, Z, that matches to the experience. This is the role, this is the company. Even if you don't want to specifically say who the company is, let's let's call it. It's one of the big four banks. It's a 12-month contract, they're looking to start straight away. Um, this is the project they're working on. Does this interest you? If so, would you be keen for a chat? Personalize it. Give people a bit of context as to what they're responding to. Not don't make it so generic. I think that's the only way you can do it.
SPEAKER_01I think you make a great point about personalizing it so that you read their profile. Like I used to have to do this all the time in my previous, previous role, and it was you'd have to spend some time going through social media, seeing what things they'd liked on LinkedIn and saying, I love how you've responded to you'd have to personalize it to that level to get a response.
he Niche Role And The Type A Trap
SPEAKER_03That first bit you have to. I can see this is what you've done. I've got a role that aligns with this because there's there's been times when people come back and go, actually, I absolutely I got stuck doing that from one role into another and to another. I hate it. I don't want to do it. I had a really niche requirement that came up. Um, I think it was probably about a bit over 12 months ago. And we did a seek search, and there was like 30 people in all of Australia that had this specific um experience. And the hiring manager was like, she was just, she was a machine, like million miles an hour. Like, and she's like, all right, I need a type A personality, they must have these, they need to have X, Y, Z, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, like, so we like, okay. I'm like, I don't didn't know enough about it. I was like, help me understand what exactly do you do? Because, you know, I'm thinking automatically, is there someone that could step into that role if, you know, they had a particular type of experience? How did you get there? What do you do? What's a must, you know, must have, and what's a nice to have? And, you know, she was just the biggest thing, funnily enough, was that she was so set on this Taipei personality. This niche experience was almost secondary to it. And that coaching piece came in where we actually found someone that had the type A personality that had that had this niche experience. And this candidate walked away from it and she's like, gee, I could never work with her. Like she's like, she she would be like the worst nightmare to work with. And this is probably the only time where I had a role open, and it was a contract role that was very urgent for like four and a half months, simply because this hiring manager just wouldn't take any feedback from us around that Taipei personality. So it was going back and going, hey, I've actually got someone that fits everything else, but they're just really chilled, laid back, et cetera. I said, No, I don't want him, I don't want him. And she was like, I want you to. Top three things have to align. And we kept going back and forth, and that people would interview with her and like, no, she's just not the right leader that I want. I had two of my delivery consultants work on this role, and I think we're all pulling our hair out because we could only do so much. We gave this feedback, but you know, I don't know if you've ever been in that situation where you feel like it doesn't matter what you say, how you say it, how many times you reframe it, you bounce things off other people, other senior people where you go, I've tried everything. This is what I've tried and nothing's working. You know, challenge my thinking, wouldn't stick. It got to the point where she's like, I'm under so much pressure to deliver this project. And if we don't, like it was going to cost them like millions of dollars. ASIC was coming in and, you know, there was penalties for not delivering. And I said, you know what? Can I be very honest with you? And she's like, Yeah, definitely. And I said, okay, these are some of the challenges we've got. I said, can you trust me? Please trust me. I've got two amazing candidates that I want you to meet. They're nothing what you've asked for, but I just want you to meet with them. Like they they kind of meet about 70% of what you want. They can definitely do the job. Bit reluctant, bit reluctant. Like, and I said, what you want doesn't exist. So let's just try something else. She met with them. And when we I took her out for Christmas lunch with her um her head of um department and his manager as well, and she was actually talking about these two. She ended up hiring him both of them. And she was like, I would have never in my wildest dreams hired those two guys by their CVs, by their experience, by initially their personalities. She's like, she convinced me. She's like, they calm me. She's like, I'm constantly wired, like I'm at 150%. Like, you know, she's tells everyone, talks about her ADHD. She's like, but these two guys have been the best thing for me personally, for our project, for our team. She's like, she's like, I will do whatever it takes. I will get increases. I will fight to keep them, even if the budgets are getting slashed. And I think, you know, that that kind of tells you sometimes that we do have that power. It just might take a little bit longer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it sounds like you've moved into that trusted advisor type of relationship to be able to get a better outcome.
SPEAKER_03Definitely. And I think I like to think that I have that opportunity a lot sooner, but you will face challenging personalities, you know. And I think that, you know, when people talk about the out-of-body experience that you have, there's moments, you know, I think as I've gotten older, that I'm like, okay, this is that moment. I've done, I've used all the tools in my kit that I've been provided with to manage a situation. And I can't because I can't control someone else's personality or their ways of thinking.
SPEAKER_01How did you manage your candidates in that situation? Because obviously, sounds like she just did what she did before. Some candidates have said, I couldn't work for that. How did you manage your candidates to be prepared for that?
SPEAKER_03Honesty. Yeah. Honesty. Honestly. The two guys that we ended up placing in that team, we were so honest about them. And I said, You don't have what she wants. I said, I need to be very honest with you. Like, because they'd worked for me before.
SPEAKER_01Right. Okay.
SPEAKER_03They'd worked in other areas. And like hiring managers would cry basically, but they're like, I have to let him go, but the project's done. Like, there's no funding. I can't, I've recommended them to other areas, but there's no requirements. So I knew what they were capable of. And I'd say to them, you know, I need to be very honest with you. This is what she's after. You are nothing like that. But I think you do amazing based on what you've delivered and your experience. I think she wanted a duplicate of herself, thinking that only people like her would be able to deliver. Whereas these guys were a complete opposite. Like they were so chilled. And talking about opposites attract, candidates were like, look, I like you you've probably made it sound worse than what she was. But I think that's because their personality could handle. So there's this, I think recruitment, you kind of have to be like a bit of a psychologist. There's a psychoanalysis piece that goes, you've got to pull back and go. It's not just about matching technical experience and going, oh, you've done this, you can step into that role. It's very much about your personality, can it work with the other personality? As a leader, I think you're great, but what this person needs and wants and has complained about, you guys will never work together. Recruiters have a bad reputation, let's be honest. They can be transparent, they'd rush things, they're always chasing that next job. You can match people up. But is it gonna last?
entors Mistakes And Building Judgment
SPEAKER_00Where did you refine this skill set? Did you listen to podcasts, do certain training? How did you come to who you are today around this kind of relationship, trusted advisor, strategic account director type of skill set?
SPEAKER_03It's a bit of the mixed bag, I would say. I started my early career came in, I worked for a ASX listed company. I started off as a um corporate receptionist, my first job. I was kind of forced in this environment with senior executives and board members, and we had a lot of people from the government, like from the agriculture department visiting often. So I felt like I had to grow up quickly in the sense that, you know, if I compare myself, a 20 to some of the 20-year-olds now, it was like you could never do the job that I did. So I guess there was a little bit of that. And I guess along the way, I always look for different mentors in life because I think different people could offer you different advice. And it's a lot of the times how people approach, like I'm a I've always been a big observer and I've always been curious. So, you know, I if I reflect on like from a corporate receptionist role, I went into a PA to our deputy CEO, and I made the biggest like fuck up of my career, excuse the language, like nearly cost the company was about to go into this joint venture, and I nearly like was the reason it didn't happen because when I um booked his flights to go interstate, I didn't leave enough time for his connecting flight. And I was sitting at my desk and he called me and he's like, just wanted to let you know I didn't make that flight because he only left like 25 minutes. Did you realize that from this airport to that airport? Like, and I died, like internally, I died. Um, went home, wrote up a resignation letter that night, came into the office at seven o'clock the next morning. I was like, I need to resign before he fires me. Like I didn't sleep, like I was shitting myself. And he came in the next morning and just strolling, good morning. And I was like, all right. He's like, let's have a chat, like you know, about planning for his day. And I took my resignation letter and I went in and he's like, What's wrong? Sliding my resignation. I was like, I I I don't even know where to begin. Like, I'm sorry, just doesn't justify the mistake. He's like, Do you think I'm gonna fire you? I expected to get like yelled at and screamed at, and he's like, No, Ina. Do you think I would fire you over that mistake and hire someone else that's gonna come in and make that same mistake again and then it's gonna cost me more maybe next time? And at that time I realised that it's people's approach to things, the way they approach. I had this, I think, single-minded or you know, vision of how people approach things, you know, there were consequences to everything, and it's not like I think I had to learn more about the experience equals growth, and what you put in is also what you get out. So I've always had an interest in personal development. So I listen to a lot of podcasts. Um, we talked about diary of a CEO. Absolutely loving. Anyone that asks me for a podcast recommendation, I was like, have you seen Stephen Butlett?
SPEAKER_00What about confessions? Would you recommend that? Definitely. I will now do it all the way. Uh any podcast recommendations? Yeah, absolutely. I'll go one point. Definitely.
SPEAKER_03Um, so yeah, I think you you've got to just take away what works for you. But just because it's a good advice, does it fit in with what you're trying to achieve in life? It might not serve me right, but he might be able to be good advice for someone else.
ne Lesson To Recruit Better
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. I think you've shared a lot of really key, important parts to uh the recruitment journey that you've been on throughout this podcast. Um, if recruiters could only take away one key lesson from this episode, what should it be?
SPEAKER_03Whether it's a client or a candidate that they see a person, like that they see who the authentic person is behind a call, behind a LinkedIn message, when you meet them for a coffee catch-up. I'm not here as a recruiter, I'm here to build a relationship with you and uh show that interest in them as a human, not just as something that you're trying to sell to someone. Because I think if you're looking at a candidate or you're sitting down with them, having a coffee or a phone call and you're trying to rush in because you need to get on the next call, you need to make sure that they see the person behind the CV. You know, if you can see the person and their motivation and understand their why.
SPEAKER_01Authenticity and finance the why.
SPEAKER_03And and what is their why?
SPEAKER_01One of my old managers, side note, my story, one of my old managers um used to say to me, because as a recruiter, you interview how many people, you know, this is just another interview for you today. Um, that person's woken up, chosen what to wear, made sure they had their CV correct, read it, practiced it. It's so important to them. And the moment I just changed my view of that is money to that's a person, like you just said, did change my entire approach. So I think that's a really key message.
SPEAKER_03100%.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03100%. And you've got to think about I um always, when I deal with candidates, whether they've applied for a role or we've reached out to them is they're still nervous. I mentioned it to you guys, like, I hate the interview process, like, I don't perform well. It's not a natural environment. So you've got to understand, like, you know, so many hiring managers I talk to and they're like, we follow the star method, and give me an example of this. And where do you want to be in five years? What's that got to do with a role? I I, you know, we in the days that we're living in now with AI, people will go jump on Chat GPT and get that answer because that's what you want to hear.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And then you get them on the floor and they absolutely fail. Like, and you're like, oh, well, you didn't give me a good candidate. Well, hang on, let's go back.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Where did it all go wrong? And I think, you know, if I reflect on some of the best conversations or interviews processes, even where I didn't get the job, and I've purposely applied for roles just to put myself through that excruciating pain of going, oh, you know, I I feel uncomfortable here. Because the minute you feel comfortable, it's a danger zone. So if I reflect on the ones that have been the best, is where the interviewers rocked up and just been casual, chit-chat. You know what? Five, ten minutes, even them going, oh my God. So XYZ happen and you know, tell you something about, you know, something bad that's happened in their life, which they can laugh about, puts you at ease. Automatically, I don't feel nervous, I've forgotten about my nerves. Yeah. Whereas they go, thank you so much for showing up today. So, you know, tell me about yourself and how do you see yourself, you know, fitting into this role?
re You Smarter Than Ed Quiz
SPEAKER_00And I'm like, 100%. All right, we're moving on to our game. Are you smarter than Ed?
SPEAKER_03I don't know. I've looked at you see.
SPEAKER_00No, I'm just saying everybody's been smarter than me today. Yeah. Has everyone been smarter than me? I think, well, they've won. Okay. All right. So chances are that you're going to be. All right, Anna. Your buzzer is your name. If you get it wrong, then I'll continue uh talking about what the answers are, reading out the answers, and then the other person has a crack at it. Are we ready? I'm ready.
SPEAKER_03Ready?
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna try hard this time. On average, how many applicants apply to each advertised job?
SPEAKER_03Enna. 200.
SPEAKER_00Honestly, I love the fact you went for it. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Literally, that's what the stats have been lately.
SPEAKER_00I have heard that. A 50, B 75, C 100, D 118. Ed D.
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna challenge you on that. Where did you get your data from?
SPEAKER_01Surge is under pressure.
SPEAKER_03It was a um See, even Ed said that. Oh, don't give it to me.
SPEAKER_00Well, she's called Surge, Surge is called Ed, Ed Well. Well, Blake sent me this article once.
SPEAKER_01But I think for the purpose of this, you can have it because otherwise. No, no, no.
SPEAKER_00We can't just give away three points.
SPEAKER_03But I think he was kicking. Like he had the data. He sent him the articles.
SPEAKER_00Okay, Brenda, new question, new new question. Thank you. Okay, alright, here we go. Here, new question. How long do recruiters typically spend looking at a C B? A, three to five seconds. B, five to seven seconds, C, ten to fifteen seconds, D, 20 to 30 seconds. Anna. Anna.
SPEAKER_03B correct.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, I'd have gone B2. 1 mil. I feel like that's a good one. I'm just too scared to say anything. What is the average number of days it takes to fill an open position? A 30 days. B 42 days. C 52. 55 days. D 65 days. Ed. A. Ed. That's incorrect.
SPEAKER_01But it takes more than 30 days.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I was gonna say, even 30 sounded. It sounded a lot.
SPEAKER_01I thought it'd be like 16 days or something.
SPEAKER_00Well, what was the article that you said so?
SPEAKER_01I don't know what he's talking about.
SPEAKER_03Let's go B, the next one up.
SPEAKER_02Willow!
SPEAKER_00Second chances, eh? Yeah, you know what? So that's 2-0. This is gonna be a really interesting one. Whoever's got quick on the buzzer will get this. What's the average notice period for white collar professionals in Australia? Ed.
SPEAKER_01Four weeks.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Okay. Quick on the buzzer, I knew it. Which recruitment agency uses the slogan powering people? Ed. Ed.
SPEAKER_01Hayes.
SPEAKER_03Is it manpower?
SPEAKER_01Oh, it would be.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01Well played, well played. You won. You won. And it's part of an action. And I think that is the right outcome today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Are you just giving up? Everyone's well being. He's been rattled by your energy. Yeah, it's terrifying. Well, Anna, thank you for joining us on Confession Tube.
hanks And Sign Off
SPEAKER_03Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00It's been a pleasure.