Chris Barr | No Rooms, No Excuses: The Cold-Calling Rule That Built a Career | COAR S3 E5

Your career can look “successful” on paper and still feel wrong in your gut, and that’s where this chat with Chris Barr lands straight away. Chris is State Director Queensland at Six Degrees Executive, and he’s refreshingly honest about what it really takes to build a recruitment career in Australia: making the calls when you’re nervous, doing the reps when you’d rather hide, and sticking with the long game even when the market turns.

We walk through Chris’s path from running 51 supermarkets in the UK to starting recruitment after a life jolt, six months travelling the east coast, and interviewing from a Brisbane backpackers hostel. From there, we get into the real skills that separate average from great in agency recruitment: a tight feedback loop, learning by osmosis in a strong team, and why investing in candidates early pays off years later. We also talk about the “playbook” culture in bigger firms, how it can crush authenticity, and why being yourself is not a soft extra, it’s part of your brand and performance.

Leadership is a big theme too, from inheriting teams and building social capital, to stepping into a State Director role and dealing with imposter syndrome. Chris shares how he thinks in clear buckets (people, performance, customer), why a personal board matters, and what he’s doing with AI in recruitment to buy time back for real human conversations. If you’re curious about practical AI use, you’ll love his example of building a Claude app to prep better one-to-ones and reclaim hours every week.

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Transcript

Opening Beliefs On Doing It

SPEAKER_01 0:00

There is a playbook, particularly in larger agencies, that you've got to follow. So you can't really be authentically yourself. Today we're joined by Chris Barr, State Director for Queensland for Six Degrees Executive. I do not allow people to go and sit in a room to make a phone call. It is absolutely pointless. The most important thing for me is the feedback loop. There will be really experienced consultants all around you that are listening to what you're saying. You learn by osmosis, so then as soon as you start that, that just then becomes the norm. 70% of your time spent on candidates will pay dividends in the years to come and you make that early investment three years later, you've made it. I just easily built an app on Claude that actually helps me with team one-to-one. For me, that's giving me back probably about three hours a week. The one piece of advice that's stayed with me throughout all of this is just do it.

From UK Retail To Recruitment

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Chris, welcome. Hey Ed, good to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Pleasure. Great to see you. So um we just like to jump straight in here and just get into some of the questions. And I've obviously spent a little bit of time with you. We work, we crossed paths a little bit in our career, but I'd really great place to start for us is how did your career start? How did you get into recruitment?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Jeez, I'm gonna say this exact same thing. I know everyone else does. I fell into it. So take you back, 2014. I'd taken a career break from the the role I had in the UK. So I was in uh senior retail operations, I was running 51 supermarkets in the southeast of England. Uh, great job, right? But you're working 70, 80, 90 hours a week. So you just literally work. Uh there was no living in it. And there was just one day I was driving in southeast London and a truck ran into the back of my car, right? Coffee goes everywhere, my suit's ruined. Um, and I was like, stuff this. Like, there's gotta be a better life than this, right? That was on the Friday. On the Monday, I'd resigned to my boss uh for the business I was working with, farm foods in in the UK, and I thought, I need to take a bit of a career break. And he was like, Well, you're crazy, but just go and do it. Can't necessarily keep your job open, but I think you should just go and explore, see how you feel, and uh, we can pick up a conversation. So you were very open about needing to do it. Very I I just needed to do it. Like there was just something in it. I was like, this is the time, you know. You kind of get into your late 20s and you're like, I've given everything to my career up until this point. So, anyway, did that, booked a flight to Australia. The only reason being is it was the furthest away I could possibly go. Uh, that I thought I'm gonna feel, get my feet here, because it would be the first time backpacking. Because before that was all package holidays, right? Um, so here I arrive uh in uh Australia, spend six months uh travelling the east coast. So started in Sydney, then worked all my way up to Cairns, uh Cape Tribulation, uh Daintree, beautiful. Uh, had the best time of my life. Arrived back in Brisbane and I thought, I want to actually stay here and make a go of it. What could I do? So I chapped in the doors of Coles, chapped in the doors of Woolies, and they're like, nah, we ain't hiring anybody because we've done a whole load of expat recruitment. I was like, damn. So at that point, you're still kind of you're in retail. So yeah, I really because I really love retail, right? And it was like kind of where I had cut the cloth of what I thought was going to be my corporate career. And I thought Engel for me is CEO by the time I'm 50, and that's that was that was that was ultimate career success. So I called a recruiter back in the UK, a guy by the name of Martin Wells. And he used to recruit store managers, area managers for me. And I was like, mate, do you know anyone in Australia that you could get me uh into um retail? And he's like, No, but I know someone who could talk to you about recruitment. He's like, You would be perfect for recruitment. I'm like, nah, nah. It's like I want a real job. He's like, Look, just have a chat with him. And that person was Richard Wynne. Oh, so I had a chat with him. He connected me with someone who's now one of my very good friends, Sam Rocket, and the rest was kind of history. So I started uh my adventure into recruitment by interviewing out of a backpackers hostel at the top of Roma Street here in uh Brisbane. Oh, so you've been realised that history, yeah. So it started here and came back here. Yeah, that was basically it. So um, in short, uh went through the process, met with a couple of people from the Queensland business here, and they're like, ah, I think you're too good. Why don't you go to Brisbane or Melbourne? Uh sorry, Melbourne or Sydney. And I was like, absolutely, let's let's do it. So I said, you pick, and when he's like, you're going to Sydney. And I was like, nah, I think Melbourne might be better. He's like, just bloody pick somewhere. Ended up in Melbourne. And then that's where it really started for me. So that was the 20 February 2015. Do you remember your first day? Like how my first day. Tell me about it. First day, Michael Page, 2015. I think like for me, because when you work in a career in retail, right? I mean, you're you're wearing the suits, but you're in and out stores all the time, and you don't really think yourself in a corporate type job. But for me, recruitment was a bit like how you see it through investment bankers, right? It was people in slick suits, and uh, you know, I've got the gift of the gab, and that's exactly what I found. I walked through the door of the Michael Page office in Melbourne, and everyone is in slick suits, they were predominantly navy, all white shirts, and uh most people uh in ties, though they'd only just started a policy there that you didn't have to wear like a tie on a Wednesday or something like that. But anyway, very loose, very loose, and and that was kind of it. It was a busy, bustling office, everyone on the phone, and I was like, this is exactly what I think corporate life actually is. What an eye-opener, right? Because that's the thing, it's like day one, you're like rabbit in the headlights, you've you know you've been in a senior position um before, but you're almost a beginner again because you're in a new industry. You start out as a consultant where you know you had a senior title before, and then you're trying to figure out how the hell this thing all works. Yeah, and that was it.

Why Calls Feel So Hard

SPEAKER_02 5:50

And so tell me about, I guess, what actually it was like, you know, in terms of um, was there anything in there that was harder than you thought it was going to be? Anything that you just kind of adapted to really well in your first year?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah, I think all of it was actually really, really hard because I think again, there's a perception of what recruitment actually is to what the reality of it actually is. And and for me, it is hard, hard work. You think that because that you've got some smarts behind you, so I'd say I'm pretty smart, got a good commercial head on my shoulders. I could pick up the phone and have a conversation to anyone about anything. But you start making your first couple of calls, candidates and clients, and it's like they don't want to bar of it, they don't want to hear from you. Pardon the pun. Um, and but for me, like that was the the hard part is realizing that you have to actually really work hard to build a connection with people on the telephone. That's it. Like you're you're I mean, it was landlines back in the day. So well, you're still dialing out on these landline telephones, and and you know, for me, just I think it was then an appreciation that if you're gonna really be good at this, you're gonna have to just work your ass off. Yeah, and that was it. But the part that I really struggled with was the most was actually just having the confidence to pick up the phone and have a conversation. But I had a really good tutor in um Jimmy Jennings. I don't know if you know James Jennings. I know his name, actually. I know him. Did he start?

SPEAKER_02 7:16

I started a different company post um page. I think.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Well, he set up he set up source. That's right. Yeah, yeah. And he came from a retail background as well, I think. And he's like, mate, like you cannot sit there and not make a call, just pick up the phone and make the bloody call. So here's me handshaking, you do that. But then the more you get into it, the the more the more natural it becomes, and you find out that you know you're just having a conversation with people, but just because that you're a big dog before and a senior role and all that kind of thing, does it no one cares? Um, but it's also that look that much harder when you don't really have any knowledge of the market here as well.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Sorry to interrupt, there's a really good point there, right? Because I think everybody in recruitment, when they first start, at least that's the bit they're scared about. And you'll see this now running Queensland. I'm sure there are people in your business, even now, who are a bit nervous around that. How do you coach people to kind of get on the phone? Or what or maybe in reverse, if I'm a recruiter who's starting in my recruitment career, tell me about how to get on the phone and why it's important.

Coaching, Feedback And Candidate Focus

SPEAKER_01 8:14

I take a hard roll on it, right? I I do not allow people to go and sit in a room to make a phone call. It is absolutely pointless. And as soon as you start that, that just then becomes the norm. So I really have that no rooms policy for phone calls. And I think for me, what I try to say to everyone, you learn by osmosis. So the more calls you make, uh, the better that you'll actually get. But the most important thing for me is the feedback loop because there will be really experienced consultants all around you that are listening to what you're saying and they're going to pick up in some little things that you might think is a bit of a criticism. Um, but it's actually not. It's just a point where you can just sharpen up to make that call more effective next time. What you usually find, I don't know if you found this in your time, is the candidate calls then become so easy. Like you just make them your left, right, and center. You can make 20 calls a day and you don't think of it. It's the mindset shift when it comes to client. And then the and then that's where you start to lose your confidence. Again, you get the sweats, you know, your hands start shaking. But again, the same rule applies. Sit at your desk and make the call. But what I always say to people is make the harvest call first. Make the call to the person that you do not know and make the pot the call to the person that we may not have spoken to for quite a while. Because I think that's the calls that you typically learn on the most.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

I don't know if your experience is the same, but it's yeah, you just kind of just have to get on with it and do it. But um, the moment you get a few out of the way, they just become easier and easier. Once you just if you just decide one week I'm gonna do a hundred, yeah. You know, if if you do a hundred in a week, it could take you four weeks to do that, you're just gonna be quicker in double the time.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

So and the thing is like in when you work going to an agency like say Michael Page, like I think the the the bigger players, the the generalists out there is I would say is a really good training ground, right? I think it it builds really solid foundations about what it actually takes to be successful in recruitment, and a lot of that is just about activity and repetition of that activity piece, right? And as you get more experienced and you uh you start to really carve out your niche, the market, and your brand in the market, it becomes easier. You don't necessarily have to make as many uh calls as you do, or uh you don't have to do as many maybe meetings as you do, just because you've built up your brand, you built up your network and you really own that. Yeah. And I think you had Nat Rogers on uh one of my colleagues not so long ago. And it's one thing that she's actually phenomenal about is just building her network and nurturing that and making her network work for her. But for people who start their careers really early on in recruitment, they just need to, they don't understand or appreciate. And that's maybe one of the things that I learned is how hard you've got to work to build that. That's good advice, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Because it doesn't just happen overnight, right? You've got to put the odds in.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Yeah. And I think that's one of the things for me is when we see a new, I said the new generation of recruiters coming into the market, particularly those that maybe started over the COVID times when it was a much easier market. Um, you know, you could make money um very, very easily, but you didn't really learn the proper recruitment craft. But then when things start to turn and change, it's harder. But the part that they missed out was just the investment and the activity and the repetition and the consistency of that is the part that kind of I think makes such a difference. Got to do the reps, you've got to do the it's like anything in life, right? If you don't work hard enough at it, you're just not gonna get anywhere.

Authenticity, Wobbles And Comebacks

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Going back to your kind of early career. So you you left recruitment after a bit, didn't you? You went back into retail for a period of time. Yeah, I went to wards. Okay. Did anything happen? What prompted that move back into the space you were originally from?

SPEAKER_01 11:40

I actually had a bit of a wobble. And it's like you're an expat as well, you know yourself. You you do a year or so uh and you're like, I'm starting to miss home, starting to miss friends, um, you're starting to kind of just think about is Australia really what you want long-term? Because you really then need to start thinking about if you're putting down roots, you know, do you want to is permanent residency in your future is citizenship in your future? There's a lot of big decisions that come up and it can get quite overwhelming. But in all honesty, I had learned a lot in the year I was with Michael Page, but there's a couple of things that I was really challenged with. Number one was about, I guess, and this has been really open and honest, was about um identity. And what I mean by that is that I think that you there is a playbook, particularly in larger agencies, that you've got to follow. So you can't really be authentically yourself. I really struggled with that. And there's some really like for me, some examples that stood out when I'm saying sitting in front of clients and you know, you're taking a job brief and you're really trying to understand what they're looking for. But it was less for me about the problem I'm trying to solve, but more about trying to win the work. Yeah. And then the other side of that is once you've won work, it's about winning more. So then all it is is just about job filling. And I really struggled with the fact that that I wasn't comfortable with that. Um, but also, and I think not saying that this is specifically a Michael Page thing, but I actually think um more of an industry thing as it was then, particularly in those bigger players, is you've got to follow the playbook. So you don't allow your personality to shine through. You've got to really um play by the roles that they kind of set. And I just didn't really like that. So if I'm sitting in front of you, I can't be authentically you because I can't share about who I am, what I'm passionate about. It's all about a transactional business. Yeah, and that just wasn't me. So I think that compound effect of getting a bit homesick and then in a in an environment where I wasn't being authentic, just wasn't the right combination. And I thought, just go back to retail, give it a crack and see if that just sparks something new, or you go back to the UK.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

That's good. Well, that's honest insight, and I appreciate that. And you did that, but then you did return back to recruitment. There must have been some itch that wasn't fully scratched in there.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Yeah, and I think that's what it was. There was an itch. Um, and I still remember the call. So I was I was doing well at Woolies, uh, and I was really enjoying it. And um say it's kind of this is retail, this is what I really like, it's what I really enjoy. Um, but then I got a call from Richard Wynne. So you know Melbourne, and he's he's pretty influential, yeah. He's very influent, influential, but you know that Melbourne, right? You get really cold winters, and even though I'm Scottish, I hate the cold, and I had somewhat acclimatised. So he called me, it was a it was June, and it was pouring a rain, and he's like, I've done something. And I was like, What have you done this time? He's like, I've set up a business, and I was like, Oh, good on you. He's like, I want you to come and work for me, and that was future you. Yep. So it so happens I was going up to Sydney two weeks later, and I caught up with him in Warren Coxall. Uh, went for a couple of wines, had a chat, told me what he wanted to do, and he's like, Look, just come and give it a crack. Like, Sydney is where it is at, the sun shines, the people are grey, uh, we're all up here. It's just gonna be like old times, but even better. And when I came to Australia, I just said to myself, one thing is as long as you're having fun and on an adventure, keep going. If you're not, then stop what you're doing, take stock and do something else. And I kind of thought, yeah, back in retail is a bit same same. Got an opportunity here. Uh, last throw with the dice, give recruitment another crack, and it's going to be with people that you really know, respect, um, and could see yourself being part of. So basically packed up the car and drove to Sydney a month later.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

And clearly it was a right call because you're still in recruitment. And how long were you with Future You in total? Or two and a bit years. Two and a bit years. And then Six Degrees came into play. And did you move into a you moved into a manager role there, right? I did, yeah. Tell me about that. Because you're you're obviously your job has expanded in that time. But when you first took the role at Six Degrees, which is an incredible company, by the way, you know, very good reputation. Talk to me about the move, what prompted it? Was it just the opportunity itself?

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Well, I think there was a couple of factors. When you're part of a business that that just grows and grows really, really quickly, uh, it's an exciting place to be and you learn so much. And I think you get to work with an amazing group of people that a lot of them are still now really good mates. In fact, you know, my best mates and very close friends have come through that experience. But I think I had just really had outgrow in the business. But also for them, they started to normalize and where they wanted to focus their attention was not in retail, and retail is what I was really passionate about. I'd I'd actually built a successful retail business for them, but it was clearly that that wasn't going anywhere. And going back to what I'd said earlier about authenticity, I can't be authentic with myself if I'm not recruiting in a space that uh I'm not passionate about, but also that the business wasn't willing to invest in at that point in time. Understand why, because that was a fair call for them. That didn't fit in with their business strategy. But it was that time that Ivor Lloyd Rees um had dropped me a message, and he's was the then manager for sales and marketing, and just said, Did you want to have a chat with me? I was like, Oh yeah, we'll have a coffee. And the rest was kind of history there. Timing. Yeah,

Switching Desks And Leading People

SPEAKER_01 16:58

timing. And they wanted to set up retail. And I thought, you know, I've done this before. Let's just go and give it a crack. Um, and I thought this will be my last throw of the dice this time. And then I'll be eight years in September and uh still here, still enjoying it.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

So you are now looking after retail supply chain and well, sorry, you went to retail supply chain analytics started to diversify, I guess, the the discipline.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

So, what had happened is that we set up retail, um, but it was really challenging points. That was 2018. The market had taken a bit of a turn, and that there just wasn't the traction I expected to get. But I think this is one thing and that I really uh love about six degrees, it's all about uh opportunity creation. So if you are there and that you're showing that you're willing to work hard, put a lot into it, but add the value where you can add value, the business will back here, right? And I think that's one of the reasons that I joined, and it's been one of the central themes throughout my career as well, with them. So, because retail was really slow at the time, and that can happen, right? The market just slows down, a couple of key industries or uh verticals might just um might take a turn and that there's just not as much opportunity there. They said, Why don't you do a supply chain, give it a crack there? And I was like, Oh, I don't know anything about supply chain, it's just trucks and sheds, right? And I was like, But you know, I was like, I'm a retailer, I love retail. And they're like, No, just give it a crack. And I did. Um, so I moved in there and slowly over time actually moved away from retail completely, and we focused on that more nationally, and then I actually just found supply chain procurement logistics and distribution really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

So, is it quite different in terms of the the types of conversations you're having um with senior supply chain people versus senior retail people? How does it kind of differ for somebody who might not know the difference?

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Whilst the role types and form and function is different, what you're really exploring with them was quite the same. So let's say that I'm dealing with um the supply chain division within a retail business, that's a lot of transferable knowledge. If I switch that over into B2B services or industrial or maybe into consumer, it's slightly different. But the dynamic that you or what you talk about is is almost the same. So you think about we always talk about the kind of the funnel, the discovery phase, right? So what's going on in your business? What's some of the challenges? What's the um, you know, what's the opportunities, where's your focus at, you know, what's the talent strategy? All these are interconnected. So it does not matter whether you're doing sales, marketing, supply chain, retail, that's your starting point. And then the only nuances then that happen is what's unique to form and function of each of those roles, but also what's happening within those specific industries, right? But I think for me, the core, and I was having a chat to one of my colleagues about this the other week, there, is it's about curiosity. Uh, you've got to be able to have a conversation with some someone and be curious enough to explore all areas because the more you know, the better it is, I think, to try and get a really good understanding on what's going on out there, but then how all the dots join. So I think the reality is it's not significantly different. Once you've you've learned the role types and how it all connects into the business, it just feeds into that wider pit uh that wider picture.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

I was gonna say, so because I've often thought, you know, you specialize in retail, went into retail, so you can talk the language, you have the credibility, then you slightly deviate from that. Was there a pretty steep learning curve in terms of what do I need to do here just to get my level to what it was in retail? Or was it just what you said there? Transfers should still be the same.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

This is where I should say you fake it till you make it, shouldn't I? Everybody does it, don't worry. And that's an element of uh, it's an element of anything you go into, right? You've you've kind of got to play the part until you're really you're really in it. Um let me think about that one. Like, I think for me, and this is what I would actually say, and if anyone is listening to this and thinking about I want to change into a different industry, different desk, maybe a bit nervous about it, or that they're looking to start in recruitment, but where they might want to look is not linked into where their their background is, is that start at the bottom. So, irrespective of whether I was leading a supply chain team of four people that knew significantly more about supply chain logistics and procurement than I did. Um, but I learned from them. But the other thing is you've got to roll up your sleeves and get on the tools. So if you've got to recruit um, you know, a supply chain coordinator, or if you've got to recruit a transport planner, and at the time that those were kind of sub 100k roles, sure, I've been used to recruiting the the 200, the 250s, the 350s, 400k roles, but well, I've got to learn something new. But for me, that's what I did. Just started at the bottom. But it's what I always tell people that are coming into recruitment as well you will learn the most by having conversations, particularly with candidates. They are the source of all knowledge and gossip sometimes. If you're in a gossip, you call your candidates, but that's kind of it. So the more conversations you have, particularly your candidate base, the more candidates you meet. Uh And if you're willing to roll up your sleeves and recruit any roles within those um industries or within those role types, you will learn and you will pick it up pretty quickly. Yeah. Because then it just once you've understood what good looks like, um, the rest of it falls into place. Because going back to what I said before, if you can really have that that higher level commercial conversation, you can join the dots there. And now you're just each of the functions, how it plugs into that wider commercial picture.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

So and I've got a question, and this is and the reason I asked the question is I got taught when I was actually working in the US that by an RMD at Michael Page actually said there are three key things when you're coaching your team. One is recruitment capability, and that's your job as a leader to make sure they're capable and you can train them or what have you. One is a natural talent, and hopefully we've retained or hired the right kind of people. But that market knowledge is something that only they can do. So, in your experience when you're you know running a team, are there any things that you focus on particularly to help them be better recruiters? Or is it all of the above?

SPEAKER_01 22:59

It's all of the above, right? I think for me, I always say to my guys, and anyone new that joins their business and they get to spend a bit of time with me, is it's all about the aggregation of marginal gains, right? Um, it's all about the one percenters. You've got to focus on being one percent better across all of those kind of key areas. And my advice is the absolute same for anyone, irrespective of what level that there is. So I don't think there's a I don't think that there's any particular formula that actually works in that, but you're actually right, you make a really important point. So if I think about you know, you're just capability, there's confidence. Um, I think that you know capacity as well is is is is one of the other C's that you might kind of look at. But I think when you're learning that piece, you've got to put yourself out there and have a mind. I guess I always use the phrase open to everything and close to nothing. Because if you've got a really closed mind, you ain't gonna learn anything. Um and you've got to push yourself to to really get underneath the hood of what's there. But I always say one of the unique things about recruitment is you're almost paid to have a conversation. So the more you can talk, the more you can find out, the more you find out, the more knowledge base you gain, the more knowledge base you gain, the more confident you become. And then if you become you have that confidence, and I keep saying the same thing, you then start to you know join all the dots, and you're like, actually, this is how this thing works. But I think it's really important that as a starting basis, you've got to be open to having the conversation. And like I said, the bulk of what you're gonna do is focus on those conversations with candidates. I think it's actually more powerful than actually the client side. I've always thought the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

It's interesting when I talk to people, like you have to keep doing the BD, but if you can get across the right candidates and manage them in the right kind of way, changes your proposition.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

You know how many eye rolls you get when you say that? Because it's almost like it's like you're from the old school, but I'm like, it actually works. Recruitment's quite a simple formula, but if you actually just listen to you might call us oracles, I don't know, but people that have actually been there, done that, lived it, been through so many different cycles, worked in different markets, and have a lot of acquired knowledge and experience. And if they say the same thing, as a new recruiter, 70% of your time spent on candidates will pay dividends in the years to come. And you make that early investment. Three years later, you've made it.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Running a recruitment agency isn't for everyone, but that's exactly the point. Most people who start one are great recruiters, brilliant on the phone, deep in their market, performing at the highest level. So naturally, starting an agency feels like the logical next step. But being a great recruiter and being a great business owner are two completely different skills. One is about placing people, the other is about building systems, managing cash flow, hiring the right team, and making decisions that compound over years. What got you to the top of the desk won't get you to the top of the business. The people who build agencies that last, that scale, that generate real wealth are the ones that are willing to learn a completely different game. We've helped over a hundred founders make that shift from great recruiter to great business owner. And we don't just point you in the right direction, we back you with an entire in-house team across finance, marketing, branding, and partner success to make sure you actually get there. If you're serious about building something of your own, let's have an honest conversation.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

And so in your experience, you you know kind of trying to pivot back a little bit to your kind of journey. So you're now running different types of teams, what you started in recruitment with. Did you inherit the teams or did you build them or a combination of both? Combination of both. Combination of both. Tell me a bit about how you manage an inherited team versus building. Because in my experience, building is a little bit easier, right? They either peak people that you buy, you hire rather, they buy into you versus an inherited team. Do you have a slightly different approach for how you manage both?

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Or I guess with Queensland, I've inherited a team here. I guess the unique thing is I've been in the business for eight years. So, you know, uh a number of the guys that that are up here in Brisbane know me, know me from afar. So that's probably been somewhat easier. But when you inherit a team, you have to work so much harder at building that social capital with with them. And and uh I I've inherited teams where I've had a lot of pushback, uh, you know, as direct as people to say, I don't want you managing me, or I don't know why you're in this job. Uh remember, one person is like, Oh, yeah, you haven't built as much as me, why are you managing me? And I'm like, that's you've probably actually answered your own question. That question tells me why. But that's what you tend to get. So you're really just thrown into the deep end. And uh you learn this in your retail days, it's sink or swim. But if you spend the time really trying to get to know and understand someone, but be really strong and clear in your convictions and expectations and be consistent, then you you will make it work. Yeah, uh, and there's only uh one time that it has not worked. Um, but I think for that, that there that clearly just wasn't the right fit overall. But I think if you go in there and you try to change things too quickly and you do not spend the time on the social capital piece, you will get nowhere. Yeah, uh, you absolutely will get nowhere. Um, and you just gotta keep at it. Like, you know, there is days where you're like, I'm getting nowhere, this is just not gonna work. You know, you go home, you have a beer in the balcony, my husband's like, What's going on? And I was like, I'm just I can't do this. And then he's like, You can, and then you're like, Yeah, you know what? It's actually more on me than it is with them. But what have I not done? I just have not spent as much time as I should getting to know them before I've started to introduce some of the changes that I want to see.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

I want to kind of stay there. We've started to touch on that. So, a new manager stepping into a new role, inheriting a team happens all the time, happened for both of us. Um, and it is a challenge, particularly if you start off at a peer level with them. What's some advice that you think they need to do? The social capital piece, definitely. Should they come in and look at making changes quickly? Is there a period of time where they should step back and just observe? What kind of guidance would you give a new manager stepping into that kind of role?

SPEAKER_01 29:19

I think it just depends on the situation. But what I've learned, irrespective of whether it's within retail or whether it's in recruitment, or even experience what I've seen with some of my um clients as well when they're asking me, like, you know, how would you approach this if you know if I'm going to bring someone in you? This is the considerations I've got to make with the team, is you've probably got to do quite a few things at the same time. But I actually just always talk about the quick wins. Where can you just make some quick wins in the team? Sometimes it's a bit demonstration. So, you know, the an example that I'll share without naming names in this one in case they they decide to listen to this podcast, but is that you know, a consultant was in a really tricky spot. We you know, I was six months in the role and we hadn't really find uh found a good working uh rhythm together, and there was a lot of pushback, um, and and it was really hard to try and get any traction with with them at all. But then one day they hit a really tricky spot with a client situation, and you know, that they couldn't get themselves out of it came to me. Well, you do you step in, you help, you know, in that advice, and actually the support piece works, but it's the same as well. Like if you think about you and Heritage Team and the transition actually from consultant into manager is a huge transition. And most businesses don't have a transition program that I've seen that's been very effective. Um, and for me, there I always say to people is that yeah, all the social capital piece is really important. You do have to kind of really um position yourself as the manager of that team, know what you stand for, be clear on expectations. But actually, if you can help someone out, if they have just got themselves into a spot where they need some help, if you can help without asking for anything back, that makes such a difference. And that's what I talk about, those short-term wins. You can just kick a few short-term goals that is a bit of a mind shift, uh mind uh shift set for someone else, and usually then you find that people will start to kind of buy into you a bit better, they'll go on the journey with you, and then that's where you actually have permission then to start making some more of those changes that you want. But I actually think you grow in confidence as well. So you think you give a little, but you can get a lot back, but you just gotta put yourself in a position where you can create and demonstrate that value to to them, and it's always worked, retail recruitment. It uh it's kind of surprising. Maybe that is the secret sauce.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Yeah, obviously, six degrees will do everything all the way up to executive search and what have you. When you're looking at recruiters, yeah, and that you know because I think a lot of people think, oh, that's where I want to end up, and not everyone's cut out for that kind of work. Do you look for anything in particular in terms of the types of people that should end up in a search role, maybe stay focused in temp or different industries, or the things that you look for?

SPEAKER_01 32:04

I would say that probably exec search is more of an evolution as someone develops in their recruitment career. So if I put exec search to the side and that's I think that is quite unique, um, I would say that temp and perm, the one thing is just is is just it's all about character, right? For me, temp contracting is about pace. How does someone operate when you meet them at first? What is the pace of the conversation? Yeah, you just know like uh what is it that's important to to them, you know, how do they move, how do they operate, what are they motivated by? And that's a really interesting one. You you typically find, I find, that a temp recruiter uh to a contract a perm recruiter actually very different uh expectations and what they want to get out of it. And I think that's what you kind of you tend to look for. And it mainly is just how about you know how they operate, how they come across to decide where they go in. But uh what I actually do like, all of that aside, is I think they should try both at some point in their career. Uh I'm a terrible um temp uh recruiter because I like a really good process, right? I like to spend the big fees at the end. Yeah, yeah, big fees, but yeah, also I just like the time um to be able to go out there into market, have those conversations, do those searches, you know, um, you know, and run the process. I've done a couple of temp roles in my time and I actually just get really uh overwhelmed by it. But the yeah but it just takes a special type of person, I think, to be really successful at it.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Yeah. No, that's that's really good, really good answer. Um, so three months into the role at six three months?

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Well, yeah, this is month, I'm in month three now. How's it going? Good. Cut. I am really happy that I've made the move. You know, I was ready for a change in my career. Uh, I knew that I wanted to stay with six degrees, but I'm actually really happy that we made the move. It is a challenge, right? A challenge and a half. And I spoke about, you know, um consultant to manager, there's no transition program. Um, from manager, senior manager up to uh state director, there's no transition um uh manual either in that. Now the business has been great at supporting me, and I had a slow introduction into it, but then as soon as you're in the seat, you're like, oh, okay, uh, it is with me now. Um, so I I think for me it has absolutely been a challenge. Um, there has been a lot of upside in some things that I've really relished and enjoyed, but there is parts of that that that that that I'm working through now. And a big part of that's actually imposter syndrome, right? Because it's almost like you know, you've you've got this role now, you've got a seat at the ELT. Should I actually be here? Yeah, uh you know, the conversations I'll have with people like Susie or John or Kristen is like, you've absolutely earned it. You're the right person for it, but you know that per that that just voice in the head sits there.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

I think you have it at every level you operate at. You'd have probably had it going in to be a consultant from I think you just do, and it's a case of recognizing that that's part of the journey, isn't it? And just working through it. But um clearly, you're in there now, yeah, three months in, which is a very short period of time. What what kind of things um do you think change in how you have to approach things when you become a state director versus being a senior manager or a manager? Is there anything that you've picked up in the first three months that I've got to think like this now versus this?

SPEAKER_01 35:32

So there's a couple of things that you that I look at, and if I put it into the kind of the buckets, I'll give you an insight into my sixth month plan, right? Is that it's it's people, it's performance, and it's customer. And it's just three really clear buckets. Now, in my role previously, I'm running the supply chain logistics procurement team, uh, and that is my sole focus. Yeah, sure, I'm taking on some additional roles and opening up um new business and and developing client relationships, but uh I was predominantly just focused on my division with some support. Now it is about the strategy that I set um is the one that we will take to market that will be effectively growing our business. Um, and that is like a total C shift change as well.

SPEAKER_03 36:19

I can imagine.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Yeah, and you know, the biggest part of that is not actually the strategy that you set, because the the strategy, like I said, in those kind of three key buckets, that's actually the simple part. The hardest part is how do you bring the team on the journey? But then how do you think about um bringing in new talent to get you on that journey as well? So I think for me is that because I had been in my role previously for a number of years, I was very comfortable in it. I knew my role, I knew my place, but now I'm trying to figure out what it actually all means. And and and really the reality is the buck stops with you. If you are making a commitment to grow, then your growth strategy is what you will be measured on. Um and that's a massive jump because you've got we've got so many great people around the business that have been there and done it, but they're not living your journey, right? Um, I'm living it. Um, and for me that that is the exciting part, scary part, um, but the one that I know is really going to define me and my time here in this role.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

You've answered a few questions that I was going to ask about it. But something I I think about is you know, as you move through your career, you become more senior, the people you can talk to about stuff becomes less and less and less. You know, when you're a consultant, everyone's a consultant. When you come manager, there's less, but you're you're you're moving towards the peak. Um do you still or where do you go for your advice? Are there is there still your your peer group that you go to now? Because you just stepped into the role. I always thought to myself, I don't want to show my weaknesses around this, but or is it such a group where you can just talk to them about anything?

SPEAKER_01 37:55

So we recently did uh a leadership um programme called Change Up uh run by Mim Bartlett. Um absolutely worthwhile checking out the work that she does. And one of the things that she spoke about in there is is having your personal board, right? Every business has a board, and that board has got advisors in there and they they work with you to challenge thinking and setting strategy, etc. But a lot of people don't think about having the same in life and your personal board there. But actually, then it really got me thinking of who do I need round about me to be really successful in this role? So, like one of my biggest mentors is my um former state director, Al Penny. Um, you know, yes, you know, Al. And he like he for me is a phenomenal individual. Uh I love him dearly. Um, and he's there as a friend, but also as really, really good counsel. Now, the hard thing is I can't just go and take a walk around Sydney um with him now. I've got a forum and it's it's a it's a slightly different experience. But what I've found now is is that just having conversations with people that I know that are gonna give me really solid advice is is gonna work. But it's really important for me that I also uh pick those people that are gonna challenge me. So there's certain things I wouldn't necessarily talk to one person about, but I would the other, because I know that they're gonna be like, right, here's what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. Um I'm just gonna give it to you straight. And I'm like, I love that, because that's really what I need. So it's like just you know, really challenging your thinking. But sometimes I need people to just go to and have a bit of a hug, right? It's like, you know, put your arm around me, just tell me it's gonna be all right. And and that's your friendship group, and that's what they're that's that's what they're there for. So I think it's like for me, I couldn't do what I'm doing now if I didn't have what I would say is my personal board around me. Um, but really thinking about the position that each of those um people play and knowing that I can go to them for different people. Um, the one thing that I'm just getting used to now is I don't necessarily have the same people around me that I had in Sydney, but I'm now starting to build that up here. So, you know, someone like Kristen, um, she's amazing. Like uh, you know, she set up the Queensland business. Uh, we celebrate our 10-year anniversary in January. So that's quite years. I just can't remember when it was happening, yeah. It's just it's like gone by in the blink of an eye, and we're at this next stage in our journey, but she's lived and breathed it. Um, and she's like she's just a phenomenal individual. But um, you know, I was having a wine with her on Friday night, and just to hear more of her story and how she's approached it, um, you know, the trials and tribulations of setting up a business and what she's learned and how she's grown and evolved through it. Like for me, that's a really powerful thing, right? And I'm not just paying that lip service, like uh that's really a valuable person to have in my life now that that helps me in my journey. So, as I said, whether I need a kick up the ass or I need a cuddle, I've got people out there that uh that will help me do it.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

That's awesome. And

AI Tools And Final Confessions

SPEAKER_02 40:38

moving into the recruitment world today, so it'd be remiss of me not to ask about AI and recruiters out there, how should they be using it? We talk about being expertly human. Um, how should recruiters in your experience be using AI versus this should remain your own? Have you got any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 40:56

I do, and I did read the a couple of questions, and I thought I'm gonna feed this into Chat GPT and cause I use both. See what they say, and I'm like they said none of this is authentically me. It's that you've given me a stock standard answer, and I think that for me that really um tells the story, right? AI is a great enabler. Uh, six degrees are adopting AI in our business, and it is it is honestly changing the way that we work. But our focus in our business, and I've been involved in a few projects in and around it. So, one of the most exciting I've been working on is our um sourcing stack, right? So, thinking about our paid platforms versus in-house platforms and what the best sourcing stack looks like for consultants. Um, and we know that AI plays a big part there, but ultimately, out of all that, we just want to make sure that we can give consultants time back to be in market, to have those conversations, to have those face-to-face, you know, human interactions, candidates, clients. That's really, really important. But to enable that, we need things that are gonna make things more effective, more efficient, more streamlined and drive better enablement. Um, and it is changing a lot. Um, and it's quite a, I think it's it's an exciting journey, but also a scary journey. And a lot of people are not sure where it's kind of gonna go. But I think for me, as it currently stands, the important thing is that what are the things that it can do to help us be better at? Where does it remove repetition? Where does it remove duplication of tasks? Um, it's those things that are really important where the value add is returned because consultants are spending less time managing submissions or you know that they're finding candidates um, you know, much easier and quicker. Uh, they're being able to, you know, do more analysis than they have before, you know, to have more commercially driven conversations with um, you know, clients, that's where it's making a difference.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

So insuring doesn't replace you, of course, but you know, can facilitate.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:49

I've started to use it more to be honest, and I'm still pretty basic. Um make this content look pretty versus actually helping it facilitate being more efficient, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

I mean, I just use, I mean, uh, I'm a software engineer by trade, right? Um, which is a bit weird, so software engineering to uh retail to recruitment. Um, but I I just easily build um an app on Claude that actually helps me with team one-to-ones. Um, so I'm a really detailed person, right? My team will tell you that is I love the detail, right? And I I like to do follow-ups and all that stuff, but it's so time consuming. So you step up into the role that I'm in now as state director, and I've got a lot of different responsibilities, and and it's it you easily drain time. Um, and I thought I want to do value-driven one-to-ones. I'm across a lot of information, you know, different consultants, all at different places. How do you help me do it? So I just thought, right, I'm gonna use Claude, built an app off the back of it, and now it helps me prepare for my one to ones. Can you share that with me? Yeah, it's awesome. But it does that, but it and it also generates the content as well. But I need that. So whether I'm sharing it on or I use it for review points, but for Me, that's given me back probably about three hours a week. That's really like that is genuinely three hours of my time that I can now focus on training and development or um being out in market with um clients, developing those relationships, or you know, being on the tools at the minute in recruiting roles. So like that's just you know one task, you replicate that across many. Imagine the difference that that makes.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

That is really good because I remember when I was looking after bigger teams, you tend just to go back to back to back to back because everyone thinks you've got half an hour in your calendar. It's free and you never have time to prep. And so you're doing your team a disservice by not being ready for them. And so things like that are really, really good insight. What do you think recruiters nowadays don't do enough of that they should be doing to help them perform?

SPEAKER_01 44:43

This might be controversial, but I actually just think it is the investment in refining their craft, right? And and for me, that is about intensity of activity. If you drive the right activity in the right way, you will be successful, but you have to be committed to the time that that takes. So I spoke about Nat Rogers earlier on that in Selly. She's a phenomenal individual. And one of the things that really impresses me about her and you know, one of my team, um, she mentors them. Um, and and it is really about that you you do the hard jars in years one to three. Years one to three, you really got to work hard. Um, but after that, it actually becomes a little bit easier. But it only becomes easier because you spent three years um building up your network and nurturing that network, both candidates and clients, but you cannot do that unless you're just being very activity focused. Right activity at the right time will drive the right results, but it's a longer-term investment play. But most new consultants coming in are looking for the quick, easy wins. They get a bit of a taste of it. They might have a good core, they might have a good half, they could even have a good year, but then the wheels fall off. And then they're like, What am I doing? You're not a bad recruiter, you're a really good, you're you're a good recruiter, you've shown it, but you haven't spent the time learning your craft, you have not spent the time building your networks, cultivating those networks. You've looked for the quick, easy wins, which on paper make you look good. You picked up a bit of comms, now you know you want to stay in recruitment. What are you gonna do? Well, you need to actually do the work. So I actually just think that for me it's all about the the right activity at the right time, it will just drive the right outcomes. It's a dead simple formula, but at the end of the day, once you've done that, you've really then built, I think, what is is a successful brand and market with a successful network, and it's what you really need, I think, to be you know a really successful recruiter.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

Good advice. There's no shortcut to those first few years, is there? You just have to do it.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

I wish there was. Like it's like I wish that but part of it is actually the journey, right? It's an old adage. It's like I remember my dad saying to me, I was like, Oh, you enjoy the journey. And I was like, Oh no, I just want to, I just want to be really successful in my career, make a lot of money. And he's like, Yeah, but how do you think you actually get there? Do you think I just woke up one day and I was successful and all that? And he's like, You gotta work. But I think it's only when you get those, when you kind of get that feeling of it's actually worth it, you go on that journey. Like it's it's it's it's all part of it. What's the best bit of advice you've received in your recruitment career? Do you think? There's one that someone told me to change my accent, but I'll become English. I think the one piece of advice that I've got that I've that's stayed with me throughout all of this is just do it. Like that it is as simple as that because if you do it, things will happen. Um, you don't want to pick up the phone, just do it. It happens, you know. You you you don't want to meet this candidate for whatever reason it is, just do it. It could just be the game changer that you need. Um, you know, you've got a really good candidate that you want to get out to market, you you know, um floats or biting. I don't have time to do it, just do it. And and actually that mentality changes everything for me. So in those down moments, or where you're kind of maybe lacking a bit of confidence in yourself or you're going through a bit of a rough ride, just do it because it makes all the difference.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

We're called confessions of a recruiter. I'm sure there's plenty here, but I'll have to ask a question. Any wild stories, any confessions that you PG enough to share? Do you think?

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Jeez, what do you want? No, actually, mine is not necessarily it's it's more about the fun stuff, you know, like the events that you have with people. But one of the funniest ones that I ever had, and that this is when I realized that recruitment can be an awesome industry to be in. Um, so I was um Michael Page at the time, I couldn't share this, and it was uh it was a fancy dress party, and uh I dressed up as Catwoman. Uh Richard Wynne dressed up as Batman and one of our colleagues, can't quite remember who it was, dressed up as Robin. We were in Melbourne at the time, right? And uh I don't know if you've ever seen Only Fools and Horses. The scene with uh Del White. That was a very famous scene. That literally happened. So we were running down Burke Street, uh heading on to uh our uh our Halloween party or whatever it was, and the city was really um foggy that night as well. So it's just like you've seen all these car lights, and then you've got me dressed as Catwoman and those guys. The boy women running down there. But um that probably stands out for me as just one of the weirdest, wackiest moments. But actually, where I thought programming games used to be such a really great career, but I, you know, a great place to be, especially when you find uh and being in and around people that you really like being a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

You meet incredible people in recruitment, you really do, whether you stay in the industry, whether you leave it. And I'm you know in the industry again, but I spent years out of it and miss the people that I met in that industry. Chris, really, really amazing conversation. You're obviously on a journey with six degrees. If there's anyone out there who clients, candidates, consultants who want to get in touch with you, what what's the best way to find you?

SPEAKER_01 49:33

You can DM me on LinkedIn or do the smart thing, look at my contact info, my mobile number's there. Give me a buzz. I'm always up for a yarn.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

Perfect. Chris, been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much.