Dana Sarkissian | How to Become the Go-To Recruiter in Any Niche | COAR S3 E6

Dana Sarkissian, Associate Director at iPharm Consulting, started in recruitment in 1999, back when shortlists went out by fax and couriers on bikes collected printed resumes off your desk.

Twenty-five years on, she's the go-to recruiter in clinical trials, running a 9,000-member industry community on LinkedIn and taking calls from clients who want her advice before they want her candidates.

In this episode Dana talks through the early years on a desk that never fit, why she left the industry without another job lined up, and what brought her back. She unpacks the decision that changed everything: going deep into a niche she actually cared about, and saying no to work that falls outside it.

We also get into what real business development looks like when you stop chasing job ads, why the KPIs most agencies track are measuring the wrong things, and the advice she gives every rookie who's thinking about walking away.

One of the most practical conversations we've had on the show.

Transcript

Ethics Under Pressure

SPEAKER_03 0:00

I remember having a director sitting to my right screaming at me to convince this person to take the job. I felt quite compromised in my ethics at

Starting Recruitment In 1999

SPEAKER_03 0:10

times.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Welcome to Confessions of a Recruiter. We are joined by Dana Tarkissin today, the Associate Director at iPhone Consulting.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

I wish I'd had the advice to knee down back then. But niche down is something that you can be really interested in. Don't walk away too easily. I've seen too many good people that could be really fabulous.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Is it about 10 years you kind of left recruitment based in sales and BD and that kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Yeah, so I kind of remained in that space and then I went internal, so I went to the other side.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

The dark side?

SPEAKER_03 0:35

I think the dark side's agency. Oh, is it okay? Defensive side, you're on. Everyone says if recruitment was easy, we would all do it. Recruitment is a long game. If you stay committed to it, work hard, be consistent, you could see such success.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Dana, welcome.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Amazing. I'm really excited about this one. Um it's not often I get to meet people who started in recruitment before I did. So I'm really keen to understand where it all started for you, how you got into recruitment in the first place.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

So I was about 12. No, yeah, uh 1999. Um I had largely a retail background and so sales. And I was looking for a new job, went into a recruitment agency, and they said, Have you thought about recruitment?

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Oh, that old chestnut.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

You know, this could be a really great way for me to get into corporate, because that I was really interested in that. And I started interviewing at agencies and then I landed my first gig.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Do you remember which agency it was that you walked into?

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Uh Enigma HR.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Oh, okay. There you go. Don't mind me asking, when was that? How long ago was it? It was in the 90s, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Yeah, 1999.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Tell me about what recruitment was like back then.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Oh, it was basic.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

We had faxes, that's how we got our resumes. Okay. Um when we were sending resumes, shortlists out to clients, we would have it um cyclist careers come and pick them up.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

So that's not just a a little story that I heard legitimately building. It's legitimate.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

They would come in in their bike shorts and uh collect our printed-out resumes. We did long hours, very long hours, because back in those days, people didn't have flexible working conditions. So you'd be in the office at seven doing before hours interviews. Your lunchtime was doing interviews, and then after hours. Um, so it it was hard work.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

What kind of hours are we talking? I remember one of mine, and it was just a couple of years after when you started, but it was eight till eight. That's what we were doing typically.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Kind of seven till seven.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

There was no internet. There was no seek. So we were writing lineage for advertising in the Sydney Morning Herald. Right. Okay. And yeah, it was a very different time.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Um So when you say lineage, so you were literally posting an advert for specific jobs or just like broadly trying to get a little bit of a.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

No, specific jobs. And we had to sell the ad to the client. Um so it wasn't just like it was on offer that we would print an ad for them. You had to sell that as well when picking up the job.

unknown 3:03

What was the value composition? Because that's obviously an additional expensive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's like if you want me to work for you, the way we're gonna get the best candidates is gonna be through advertising. This is the way we're gonna reach the market. Um, so it was very different, very different. Um and back in those days, writing it it was a different style of writing to what we do today. And I'd never done that type of work before. And I wasn't very good at it. There's a lot of things I wasn't wasn't very good at it back in those days.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

But yeah, because I think you mentioned before doing this actual podcast, we obviously had a bit of a catch-up, and you said you weren't you weren't great at it to start with.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

No, no, I don't think I was. I I went into a market that I didn't have an affinity with. I was doing technical insurance. Okay. Claims assessors, underwriters. You've got to really love the sector, I think. You've got to be passionate about it. And I didn't really connect with my market. Okay. So going out and trying to pick up business, get new clients, trying to, you know, get that connection with them was really

Winning Business Before The Internet

SPEAKER_03 4:12

hard.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

So how did you do BD back in the day, given there was no internet?

SPEAKER_03 4:16

You had to actually talk very much to your candidates and get your leads. You had to, when you're I mean, you do you do that today, that's you know, common practice, but you had to do it even harder. Every candidate you talk to, who's your boss? Who do you report to? Sometimes they weren't very forthcoming with that information, so you had to be very creative, and you'd be like, Oh, I know the manager of that division. I it was Kathy Smith. And they'll be like, oh no, not Kathy, it's you know, Shauna. Like so you had to be really creative. Um there was receptionists, the gatekeepers. They were a big thing, and you had to be creative getting through to them too. Um, so you had to really get names through your research. Um you're going through the yellow pages. The yellow pages were the thing. They talk about it, but it was a real thing. We all had our own set on our desk.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Um and yeah, it it was hard. And it made it quite stressful.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: With gatekeepers. I mean, it's still a thing, right? But I I remember we used to start a bit earlier because gatekeepers didn't start working until nine. So that's when you did some of your calls. Did you have any tips or tricks or things that you used to do to get past gatekeepers that maybe people listening today can still use without giving away your trade secrets?

SPEAKER_03 5:27

Yeah, I don't want to give away too much. But similar to what I was saying before, it was being creative in in not letting them know you're a recruiter and you were calling for a different purpose. Or, you know, sometimes it'd be like we're doing some market research and we're we're wanting to send some information to this person. You know, who should I be sending that to? And then you're calling back the next day, hi, can I please speak to John Smith? Um, so there was a lot of prep. There's probably more prep back in those days than you you have to do today. The information's very much at your fingertips today.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

I got trained to do the same thing, coincidentally, about I used to pretend I was a graduate doing some market research and then call back the next day. And also I used to say it was a personal call, but then it was actually a personnel call. Yeah. So it's just my accent. Yeah. Do you remember your first placement?

SPEAKER_03 6:12

I do. It was an underwriter.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Um at a reinsurance company. Um and coincidentally it was my first dropper too.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

What did you learn from that one?

SPEAKER_03 6:21

I had actually placed the person, they'd been in the gig for about six, eight weeks. And I actually went on annual leave and came back from annual leave and met all the crew for drinks on a Friday night, and they very proudly announced to me that I had had my first dropper. And I was like, oh, this doesn't feel so great. Um and back in those days, when I said I I wasn't very good, like I literally wasn't very good. I wasn't making many placements to to have a dropper and that as well with not much activity because my desk wasn't flourishing, it just it stabbed you in the heart. It feels really hard.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Aaron Ross Powell You did a couple of years in recruitment before leaving recruitment, is that right?

Burnout Leaving And Coming Back

SPEAKER_02 7:01

And so was it about two years in you thought, hey, this is just not for me, I'm not as good as I want to be. What what was the reasons you kind of ultimately stepped away at that time?

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Aaron Ross Powell So the agency was a boutique agency that was in its infancy itself. Um so in hindsight, I should have really gone to a bigger, you know, established agency. The support was there, but there was also being a small business, there there was a lot of pressure to get results. And I wasn't getting results in at the pace that they needed. Um I did move off the insurance desk to start up a fresh desk. Again, another rookie error.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

And that's tough in your first time. A rookie years.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

A rookie starting up a fresh desk, and that just didn't take off. And it just by that stage, by just nearly two and a half years, it just felt too hard. I was done. I it just felt too hard.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Well, a rookie making a rookie error is kind of expected in many ways. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Exactly. But in those two years, was there anything about the role or the recruitment job, I guess, um that was just harder than probably what you thought it was going to be? Not necessarily the overall experience, but particular things about the job that you thought were were challenging. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

When you got the offer and you know, getting people to take the job. I remember having a director sitting to my right screaming at me. Because th those days It was allowed back in those years. It was allowed back back in those days. So being screamed at to convince this person to take the job. And it didn't feel right to me. Um so I felt, you know, quite compromised in my ethics at times. Um It was about do I do the deal and do what the company wants or do what feels right? And I wasn't making any enough deals, so the pressure was to convince people to do things that they didn't want to do, which, you know, didn't sit well.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

And rightly so. So at that time you made a decision that it's not for me and I'm gonna take a different path. Was that just a purely you decision, or does somebody influence you in your life at that time? I'm trying just to get an understanding of were there people around that you were confiding in about it.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, my now husband, uh he was pretty much in my corner and he was seeing me just going home at night, just absolutely soul destroyed. And that's probably a big saying in in the recruitment world too, it can be quite soul-destroying this role. So um I wasn't happy. So I actually quit without a job to go to. Um and then continued kind of in that sales world.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Let's touch on that, because you did leave and ultimately you've come back. So I'd like to spend a little bit of time just understanding. Was it about 10 years you you kind of left recruitment, but you said in sales and BD and that kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_03 9:35

Yeah, so I kind of remained in that space. And and and some of my roles also continued to have a little bit of a touch point to recruitment. So I always kind of felt like that people side kind of has been through my whole career. And then an ex-colleague from the Enigma days had started up her own business and she needed somebody to come and run the internal recruitment team for her business. So then I went internal, so I went to the other side.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Is it the dark side?

SPEAKER_03 10:01

I think the dark side's agency side. Okay, depends which side.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

You're wrong. Let's talk about that then, because we obviously, uh my experience in recruitment, I'm sure like yours, you get a lot of people who leave agency and go into internal. You don't often see them come back into agency. So talk me through that experience.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Aaron Powell Internal is tough. You can be working a receptionist role to a finance manager role to I mean, this was in the fundraising world, so we were running call centers for for charities. So it was very high volume recruitment of finding telefundraisers and street fundraisers. So we were bringing in hundreds of people a month to be interviewed, and it was a very high turnover environment. So there, you know, and you've got different stakeholders who, you know, within those different teams, there's different cultures, like subcultures. So, you know, you're you're hiring very different people all the time and having to be skilled on all those different, you know, disciplines, it's hard. Um you might please one manager and then you're not pleasing another. So, you know, it's I don't think internal is easy.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

And I've always thought about this. I always thought there's no hiding place in internal, because if you don't deliver, you're still working.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

And then you're walking down the corridor or by the person that you've you've you know you've placed. I mean, the joy of internal um is when you bring somebody into the business and you see them, you know, you know, step up, get promoted, get new opportunities. Um, I've still got people that I'm connected with today that from those fundraising days that they were backpackers when they came to Sydney. And I've seen their journey through getting them sponsored and then go on to have fabulous careers elsewhere. And that's that's a real joy when you get to have that connection as well. So that was probably the biggest thing I loved about internal.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

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Internal Lessons And Leadership Style

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Did you develop any skills in internal there's the one that's we've kind of touched on, which is the internal stakeholder management side, but there are any skills that you learned that you brought back into agency that you think that agency recruiters could do with learning?

SPEAKER_03 13:04

I think the biggest thing that I learned is when you're in a high turnover environment and you're recruiting the same role over and over again, um people are pretty predictable. Um so when you see the same behavior over and over and over again, you can predict the outcome pretty quickly. And I guess I what I brought back into agency land is that you can foresee potentially where a deal's gonna go. And it's, you know, the the different little nuances that people will say or how they behave or what they do. And, you know, I've seen that with some of the rookies that have come through since, you know, I've come back to agency land where they're just willing a deal to come over the line. They're just and you can see all the it's not even big red flags, yeah. Just little flags. And you don't want to be the I told you so, mum, but it's kind of like you can just see how how the outcome is going to come. And it's just from, you know, you don't need a psych degree. People are just really, you know, they do the same things over and over again.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:08

Um so that's probably the biggest thing I think I took away from that environment.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Aaron Ross Powell And coming back into agency, were the we was it always in the back of your mind that you might come back one day, or did some things transpire that Once again it was a job hunting, going into an agency.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Would you think about joining us? And and I was like, No, I think I'll give it a go again.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

So it wasn't on my wish list, but it was a conversation that was like, do you know what, maybe I should give it a go.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

Aaron Powell It's clearly very different this time round than it was 1999.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Um you have a team right now that you're you're running?

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Yep, yep. So I I run a team of three.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

And I'm a billing manager as well.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Oh, amazing. Okay. The hardest job. Yeah. So without being specific, I'm I'm keen to understand about um leadership and maybe things you've learned through your career that you know help you lead in a certain way. Um what kind of style leader are you? What what how would you describe yourself? How'd your team describe you?

SPEAKER_03 15:07

I'd like to think that I'm collaborative and supportive. Um I like to give my team rope to do their own thing. Um I definitely I hate the word micromanage, but I d like iFime in general, we're not micromanagers. So um I've come from very micromanagement companies previously. So it's something that I know that I don't enjoy. So I wouldn't want to put that on on the people that I work with.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

Um so you know, I I'd like to share lots of my experiences, and I think I do that a lot. Um so you know, we might be just sitting around at the table at our desk and I'll go, sorry guys, I've just had like I've just remembered something random, but have a think about this. Or you know, so it's it's quite you know, there's there's no real prescriptiveness to my style.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Yeah. It's just very intrinsic, just kind of how you are. High performers are often, in my experience, harder to manage than mid to low performers. Do you have a different approach for different types of people?

SPEAKER_03 16:10

You have to manage people on an individual basis. You can't just cast a net and just you know manage everybody the same way. You've got to, you know, really get to know these, you know, who's on your team. Like get personal. Know their pet's name, know, you know, know what they did on the weekend and make it more about them and how they're feeling rather than it just being about metrics and you know what's happening on your desk. Um I've had that style of management myself, and I don't think that's fun. You know, it it's it's a hard job what we do. Um, and you can't you don't want to make it harder by, you know, you know, shoving your fist down or or screaming at people like you know back in the day that I used to get.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Yeah. So you've obviously been in life sciences about six years now, is that right? And you've obviously progressed into the role you're in now. Tell me a little bit about that journey and and what that's been like.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

I would

Finding A Clinical Trials Niche

SPEAKER_03 17:09

never have thought of life sciences. Um I don't have a science background, didn't know anything about it. And an ex-colleague of mine had gone back to the UK and was working for iFarm in their talent team. And she was reaching out to me and she said, You have to join this company, it's fabulous. And I was like, Science? No thanks. Like, I'm not interested in that. Um and so we kind of talked on and off for maybe about six months or so, and then you know, we had the 2020 COVID, and um then I really decided that I wanted to make a move and I said to you know, my ex-colleague, I said, you know, let me explore it. Like a chat's not gonna harm anything. Um, so I met, you know, my boss Andy, or he wasn't my boss then, but now my boss, and we had a couple of chats and I found it fascinating. I didn't know what he was talking about, by the way. He was using all these acronyms. I was like, Sarah, Sarah, I have no idea what you're talking about. But it sounded like a really interesting challenge. And it wasn't a management role, it was just going into an existing desk that had already had huge success. Um so it was more than a warm desk. And it was it was something to do different. And I thought this is something I can just worry about myself, go in. I just wanted to do a good job. Um and then I fell in love with it.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Aaron Powell, Because I don't know much about it, and I'm sure many of our listeners don't understand the kind of roles you'll place in the kind of companies you have. And clearly you going in didn't have a deep understanding. What is it like? What kind of people are you working with?

SPEAKER_03 18:33

Overall, it's it's it's scientists that I'm recruiting, but specifically for clinical trials. So it's very niche niche. Um so you know, when I first started, the core roles that I was recruiting was probably about there was mainly two. And then it's kind of expanded over time. But, you know, there's different seniorities in those two types of roles, but yeah, we're doing a lot broader now. But yeah, it was, you know, the one thing that did cross my mind was am I going too restrictive? Like if I'm only recruiting this type of role for this type of company, is that not going to be enough? Um, but it's it's great. Having knowing everybody in an industry and being able to pick them up and move them to the next one, um, I've been the most successful in recruitment than I've been in my whole career.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

It's really interesting because I started my career in accounting and finance and just didn't really get it, didn't understand it, and I found it hard to connect to that space. Um You obviously came in not really understanding it. So what did you do to bring your knowledge levels up? Did you do a lot of external research or was it just talking to candidates? How did you skill yourself up? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Talking to candidates. You know, I'd say to people, look, I'm new to this. Can you just dumb down what you do? Like, dumb it down for me. Um I remember one of the first people that I spoke to, and he was my first placement at iFarm. A aspect of their their role in clinical trials is to do patient recruitment. But he just mentioned recruitment. And I was like, Oh, you do recruitment too. Oh my God. I didn't think you would do that in your job. And he's like, Yeah, no, I I I don't. But um so yeah, it it was you just had to talk to people. And then going out, meeting line managers, getting them to dumb it down for me. So it was just and it got easy because you're talking to the same people all the time. So you got to know what they do pretty quickly. Um I had to to to be able to do my job.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Aaron Ross Powell And do you think that's the best bit of advice? Because I know from my experience, you recruit different types of levels of consultant graduates that have got no experience in anything, and they're talking to people who have they've got no idea about what they do. Should they just throw everything into candidates? Do you think there's other things they should be doing as well to learn?

SPEAKER_03 20:42

Aaron Powell Yeah, absolutely. I talk to a lot of grads about um you know, join associations in your industry, go to the networking events, get connected on LinkedIn. LinkedIn LinkedIn's your best friend. Like get out there, talk to people. Like you've got to talk to people. It is a very competitive market. So if you're seen to be doing a little bit more than the person, the grad next to you that may not be doing that, find some mentors. Do all those types of things that will help you stand out and be front and center in mind of the people that you're talking to when you go for your job hunt.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

And do you think that's one of the if if you think about that exact scenario, graduate joining a recruitment business in an area they don't understand? What's the kind of bit of advice, not necessarily graduate, somebody fairly early in their career, a bit of advice you would give them that they should be doing to really step kind of set themselves apart from maybe peers or competition?

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Aaron Ross Powell I think you need to be seen as a market expert and you need to do what you can to be a market expert. So don't necessarily just go to recruitment networking events. Go to networking events that are in the industry that you're recruiting. That's where I spend a lot of my time. I you know I run my own little networking groups as well. Um I've had a few people that are local in my area and We've caught up and had coffees and you know things like that. So, you know, do something that makes you stand out to look a little bit different.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Aaron Powell Doing like networking events is probably quite a daunting thing to do for somebody early in their career. Can you just talk us through what you did and how you got to that point that you thought, okay, networking event, let's just go with it.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

So I wouldn't have done it back in 1999. I didn't have the confidence myself. It was it's it's a maturity thing, but it's something that I talk a lot to about with with the rookies that come through our business. They don't like doing it either. You just got to do it. And it's gonna make you better. It's like when you do business development. Nobody likes it when you're new. You know, you all go and hide in a corner and hope nobody can hear what you're saying on the phone because you don't want people to hear your conversations. But the more you do, the better you get. And you're gonna get ahead quicker by doing more. Um you mentioned Molly, um, you know, a very high achiever. It's all about just doing more and more all the time and the consistency, being consistent.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

So now we don't have the yellow pages for you to do your BD out of. How do you go about your business development in your

LinkedIn BD And Rookie Mistakes

SPEAKER_02 23:08

market?

SPEAKER_03 23:08

I'm very, very proactive on LinkedIn. Um I I I post a lot. I run a private industry group on LinkedIn, which has nearly 9,000 clinical trial members. So if you're not in clinical trials, you're only saying half my content on LinkedIn. And I do a lot by being, I guess, a a market expert, you know, talking about recruitment for this market and very particularly talk about clinical trials and what you need to do to get your next job in this space. So from a BD perspective, you know, I'm connected to probably 90% of line managers out there in the market. Um, so I'm talking to them all the time. It's not a I don't chase job ads, um, I don't float candidates, I ring up and have conversations. And it's purely value-added conversations, more so than trying to pick up a job.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

I was gonna it leads me to my next question, which is what do you think are some of the mistakes that people are making as a recruiter nowadays? And one of the things I see is just chasing to get something for yourself versus bringing insight, bringing value. What do you think mist the common mistakes you see in people early in their recruitment career? What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 24:33

Aaron Powell It's getting caught up in just picking up a job. If you're not in a niche market, which a lot of recruiters are not, they tend to just pick up any job because it's a job and they won't have a fleet of candidates. They're starting purely from scratch. So even if you're in an agency where you're not niche, try and formulate your own niche. Because I know when I get a job and I've got a colleague that works the same market with me, we will have candidates within 24 hours for our clients. Um, and that's because we're speaking to them all the time and they're in our network. Um I do see some of the newbies that come into our business that, you know, they do have a niche and they rely too heavily on the warm clients that we've got relationships with. They're very important, but you've got to pick up your own clients. Um, the warm clients have probably had two or three different recruiters that they've been partnered with in the past. They don't have an allegiance to you yet. It's harder to, it's more transactional. When you go out and pick up your own clients, they're yours. You've kind of made that relationship. It's so much easier to recruit for a client that you've built that relationship. And if you can just get more of your own clients on, and that comes with doing more BD and more research, uh, it just makes the job so much easier.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

How much time do you think people should be allocating to BD then? Um, with that in mind, particularly when there are businesses out there that have lots of warm clients, you get given a desk that's got clients in there, you can get caught up in people thinking or recruiters thinking, I don't need to do BD, I've got this. What's your thought process there? How much time should they be spending doing BD for new clients?

SPEAKER_03 26:17

Look, I think if you're new, a big chunk of your time, the majority of your time.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

Do you still do a lot of that in terms of trying to because you obviously said you covered the market quite a lot, you know nine is there still the 10%? Are you still actively going after that, or is it really trying to focus on what you've done already?

SPEAKER_03 26:31

It depends on what my desk is doing a lot. Like I ha I guess of late I haven't been doing a lot of business development myself. But you know, I'm business developing without it being the traditional.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

You're developing your business. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

You know, I'm going to a conference next week and I'm speaking on stage, and it's a clinical trial industry conference, and I'm actually on stage with some of my clients. Um, that's business development. Um it's not the traditional pick up the phone, but you know that's activity. And I do lots of things like that all the time. So um but I do still need to pick up the phone.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

I think that's a really good point. And I used to think about this a lot because you're even saying that then, BD is often seen as just get on the phone and pick up a new job or whatever it is. But developing your business takes many, many forms. Um, and so with that, clearly you're doing a lot of different aspects. When we kind of jump into, I guess, careers a little bit now. So, you know, you've you built up a an area that you're doing very well in, you're very established in there, some recruiters out there who aren't, but they still want to progress their careers. What kind of things should they be focusing on? Is it just about mastering your niche or is it about new clients or billing more? What are some of the things that you think people should be thinking about to progress their careers?

SPEAKER_03 27:44

My career is the best it's been since I've had a niche. I did work at a different agency where I had a manager that was trying to get me to focus that way, but it was also a business that whatever job came in, you just worked it. So you've got to be in a business that's gonna support you wanting to take that because you've got to say no to work. I say no to work because it if it doesn't fit in what I do, it it's not gonna be, you know, it's not a smart decision time-wise for me to do that. So get a niche and go really niche.

unknown 28:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:15

And get to know everybody in that market.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: That's a good point. And we talk about niching down a lot into a specific area, but it's hard to turn business down. So is that the advice you would give? Just be really strict on the jobs you're gonna work when you're kind of yeah, just focus.

SPEAKER_03 28:29

Aaron Powell If you're telling your clients you're the expert in this market and this is all you do, and then they see you promoting, you know, something completely different, you're not really the specialist. You want to be the the person. And that was very early on at iFarm when I was sitting down and setting my goals with with my director, Andy. I was like, I want to be known as the recruiter in clinical trials. And that was my plan.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Aaron Powell Now that you are the that person within that space, how would your clients describe you? Like how would they talk about you as a type like your philosophy, the way you engage with them? I just threw that one as a curveball. But I was really curious because I always think about well, how would your candidates describe you? How would your clients describe you?

SPEAKER_03 29:07

Aaron Ross Powell My clients ring me for advice. So I think that says something. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Trusted advisor in that space. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

Yeah. They might ask me about a person that I know of. We do a lot of salary benchmarking, a lot of what's happening with the competitors, what are you hearing? Because we're actually signed up with most of the clients in this space. So they know that I recruit for everybody. So they will come in and say, look, what are the others offering? Where do we sit in the market? What are you hearing about us? So they do, you know, that consultant hat really consultant label is very much there. It's very much consultative. So that's yeah. So I'd say that I think I'm approachable. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

So you talked about focus on a niche has been significant in not changing your career path, but impacting your career path. Was there ever a like a singular moment of like a placement or experience that made you had the same kind of impact, do you think?

SPEAKER_03 30:03

Aaron Powell About 18 months ago, I was recruiting a C-suite role. And I knew very, very well every single person that got to the short list. A lot of them were people that I had been BDing as line managers because it was a C-suite role. So I intimately knew every person. So throughout the whole process, getting them to the

KPIs That Build Long-Term Success

SPEAKER_03 30:24

finals and you know getting down to the offer, um, it felt very personal. I was very invested in every candidate for different reasons. So I think not just that it was a C-suite role, but it was because of the connections and it was it was actually a really easy role to work because I knew everybody. And that's a sweet spot.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Aaron Ross Powell In terms of your career, so niche down, enjoying recruitment clearly now, careers progressing in the right way. As time goes on, what does true advancement look like for you? Is it billing more money?

SPEAKER_03 30:59

I want to continue being the best known clinical trial recruiter. And that's to continue to go out, meet everybody, be the person that can place the next clinical trial professional. Uh I'd be happy if I was just doing that. I'm I'm not about the titles. Um you know, I I'm not really chasing the next one. Um I just want to be I just like to be good at what I do. Um I want to have, you know, good billings. I don't need to be a million-dollar biller, but I want to have really good billings. I want to run a good team. I want the team to be happy. I want to I want my team to have success. Um that makes me feel good and feel like I'm doing a good job if they're seeing the success. You want to see people get really good commission because we work really hard for that. Um so that, yeah, maybe managing a few extra people, widening that. Um, but I kind of feel I'm at a stage in my career where I just want to give back more.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

And no, I've been caught up in the title race and in my career as well. And I look back now and I would give certain advice to junior recruiters different to what I did back then. But is there any advice that you would give to people now listening about how to move your career forward?

SPEAKER_03 32:17

I would say don't give up too easily. Recruitment is a long game. If you stay committed to it, work hard, be consistent, and don't just give up when it gets a little bit hard. You could see such success. And I've had some really frustrating conversations with some people that I've worked with who they've just given up too easily. It's like, no, you are on the cusp. You're literally on the cusp of greatness. And I can s I can see it. It's there. Just give it longer. But you know, people have to do what's right for them. You can't convince, you know, just because I'm saying they're on the cusp of greatness. They've got to feel it. They've got to feel it.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

We always talk about KPIs in recruitment, what but really what is important to be successful. Are there any kind of KPIs that you think they're the core ones, you know, truly the ones you need to focus on?

SPEAKER_03 33:06

I look at k KPIs a little bit differently. Um especially for a recruiter when they're struggling. Um if your your market's a bit flat, you're doing your your BD calls, you're you're you're ticking the the boxes, but you're not getting the results, you can actually leave at the end of the way and feel really quite crap. So, you know, it's looking at maybe some of the wider metrics that aren't really recorded on or reported on, like how many new people did you speak to this week? Not not just for a phone screening, but these these might be people that you can get in the database that you can't help right now, but they could be your candidate that you can help in two years' time. Um did you do LinkedIn activity? Did you connect with more people this week? You know, how many more contacts did you add that are potential business development? You know, you're not just reshuffling through the people that are in the database. So I look at it a bit wider than that. That, you know, it's not just doing BD calls, getting resumes out, and you know, doing the traditional KPIs. Um and I think it has to be looked at big picture. You can have a shocking week, but you know, what did you do over a quarter? What did you do over a half year? Look at that big picture, don't just micro, you know, you know. I've been in environments where you you sit in those weekly Monday meetings and it's you know, divide and conquer, which uh a lot of agencies kind of do take that kind of approach. I don't think that's healthy.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Aaron Powell I agree with you. I've I've seen it so many times in my career where I've even had consultants saying, Oh, I've I've just I've got my KPIs done, so I can just focus on this now. I'm like, well, if that's not feeding into this, then it's the wrong thing. So we're looking at the wrong things. Um if you could go back to 1999 and restart your recruitment career, what do you think you'd you'd do differently?

SPEAKER_03 34:56

Aaron Powell I would have given it more time.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Trevor Burrus Would you have gone into life sciences straight away?

SPEAKER_03 34:59

Probably not. I I wish I'd had the advice to niche down back then. But niche down is something that you can be really interested in. Because I was actually doing a niche in the insurance space, but I just it didn't interest me.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

That's a hard one.

SPEAKER_03 35:12

Yeah. Thinking of going to a networking event with a bunch of insurance people, just no way. Yeah. No offense to insurance people.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Yeah, but I was thinking the same thing. It's great.

SPEAKER_03 35:20

But yeah, I I think just be passionate about what you're doing. You've got to live and breathe it.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

And this is confessions of a recruiter. So are there any confessions that you would like to share or you've heard, or anything fun that's obviously PC?

SPEAKER_03 35:31

I don't know if this is so much of a confession, but back in the 1999, we used to have jokes in the office that you could always spot a recruiter a mile away on on Martin Place because she was in we're always in two-piece suits. Um have the pumps on, two-piece suit, a compendium.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Compendium.

SPEAKER_03 35:50

Big hair and pearls. That was our look back in the day. So um so whenever we would would see one strutting up to up Martin Place, like she's on a client visit, she's off to see something.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

So in pairs. You know, see them in pairs. And so what one thing, I mean that'd be we there's been a lot of shared advice, and I really appreciate that. But is there any one thing that you think from listening to this podcast, anyone should be really taking away anything that you think is really important if they could just remember one thing that you've said?

SPEAKER_03 36:17

Aaron Powell Don't walk away too easily. I've seen too many good people that could be really fabulous. Everyone says if recruitment was easy, we would all do it. Um but I've seen some really talented people that I think you shouldn't have left.

Final Takeaway And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_03 36:30

You left too early.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Dana, it's been a real pleasure. If anybody wants to find you, if they want to work with you as a candidate, you know all the clients, it seems, anyway. But where do people find you?

SPEAKER_03 36:38

LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 36:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

Thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 36:41

Thank you.