Making Pondo with Geoff Notkin

 In this episode we talk with Geoff Notkin from Desert Owl Productions. Geoff has produced movies with us, acted in them, done makeup, art and set production and a slew of other jobs

Love Song Trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz4VOHtdid0

TusCon Link:

https://tusconscificon.com/

Geoff’s Incredibly Strange Book Link:

http://geoffnotkin.com/my-life-in-comics-and-why-special-editions-are-special

Ghost - Pottery Scene Link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGWMarTNw28&pp=ygUTZ2hvc3QgcG90dGVyeSBzY2VuZQ%3D%3D

Meteorite Men Link (Wisconsin Fireball):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThLOkFdt04M&pp=ygUnTWV0ZW9yaXRlIE1lbiBMaW5rIChXaXNjb25zaW4gRmlyZWJhbGwp

Stem Journals Link (Social Insects):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyn7Gj2v08Q&pp=ygUjU3RlbSBKb3VybmFscyBMaW5rIChTb2NpYWwgSW5zZWN0cyk%3D

Criterion:

https://www.criterionchannel.com

Fireball Steve Link:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgFjl6LxD3ntWDHm3h9Sy2lHrsRSTQN7S

Philip K. Dick:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_K._Dick

Molly Kiely:

https://www.mollykiely.com/

The Bone Wars:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_Wars

William Gibson:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Gibson

Lach:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lach

The Clash: Westway to the World Trailer:

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Making Pondo and Talking Pondo. Talking Pondo is a podcast where we pick out two movies each week and talk about them in detail. Making Pondo is a podcast where we talk to people we've made films with and we discuss all their experiences on set. Today on Making Pondo, we feature Jeffrey Notkin, who has acted in two of our films, as well as done set decoration, makeup artist, and a slew of other jobs. Hey Marty.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Hey Cliff. So I guess we should introduce our new podcast, uh, Making Pondo.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Yeah, I think this is a good time at the beginning. Hello, I'm Marty Cotola. I'm Cliff Campbell. And we're indie filmmakers. Uh we've made five feature films, and we're going to be talking on our new podcast here with uh various people we've worked with on the movies, with all of the different actors, producers, crew members, pretty much everybody. Slowly over the course of as many episodes of this as we can crack out.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

That's right. Uh all of these people will have have worked with our production company and us, um Pondo Enterprises, which is why we call it Making Pondo. Um and we're going to talk about tales from the set and uh their art and how uh their experiences with us and their experiences in general with their art. So it should be an interesting conversation if you're into uh indie filmmaking or I don't know, filmmaking in general. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Uh we feel a lot of these experiences are universal. You know, we we like to watch and listen to other people talk about making movies, and there's always those moments where you're like, yep, same things happen to us, although on a different scale. So we figured well we can share our experiences, and it would be a good just a good way to uh not only reminisce about it, but to kind of make a historical record of what it was like to make these films.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Yeah, I mean if you learn something from it and somehow avoid some of the pitfalls that we ran into, even better.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Today we have uh Jeff Notkin. Jeffrey Malicious Notkin.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Greetings programs. How did you know my middle name? I've been keeping that secret all these years.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

It's uh part of the long list of Pondo names.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Uh yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Uh would be a podcast in and of itself almost. Uh yes, yes, yes, for those who don't know, we give we should explain what that is to the people.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

Yeah, we give it. We give Jeff uh we give Jeff nicknames. It started with um when he did the music soundtrack, we called him T Jeff Notken after uh T-Bone Burnett from uh the guy the sound guy for the Cohen Brothers. And then it was Don Don Dela Notken. There's so many books, there's so many nicknames we've given him over the years in email. It's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

And then I I adopted that. I liked that so much that in our in our voluminous correspondence of probably thousands of emails over the years, I started this thing where I would sign my name with a different Pondo signature every time. And you'll be very amused to know that have actually kept a list of all of them. Oh, that's it. And so I'll just read off a few. Here we've got uh Hampton Pondo Starchild Fancher. That was something to do with Blade Runner, P Notkin Ondo, Pondo Churchill, PG Notkin House, Pondo PG Woodhouse, and Hundreds. Pondo La Mancha. Pondo Pondo. Oh, I like this Pondo Atreides Star Child. I guess we're talking about June that day. But yeah, I don't know why, but I'd tell you the list goes on and on and on. Buzz Pondo year. There's some pretty good ones. Maybe not a November Pondo. That was a year ago. That was last November.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

Yeah, I've always the generic Marty Pondo, because it was an easy email to remember, and Cliff's long been Dr. Pondo, which is the whole story behind that. And now we gotta get Eric some sort of Pondo name to really bring into the fold here.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Yeah, he probably feels really left out. I didn't think about that.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

I think we tried to give him one at some point, but it just didn't stick. Eric's not a nickname type of dude.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

He's not really, is he? He's quite a serious fellow.

SPEAKER_03 4:15

Quite a serious fellow. And those those of you who have heard his podcast, you'll know exactly what we're talking about. Um, he's very, you know, I I love Eric, but he is um he's a very serious guy.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Eric is the reason that we uh found you. Because it leads into our first question. You know, how should you find us and start working with us? And well, Eric is a big part of that.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

That's so true. I there we wouldn't we wouldn't be friends and and creative partners were it not for my old show, Meteorite Men, the Tucson Science Fiction Convention, which we lovingly call Tuscon, and in particular Eric. And the story goes back to I suppose it was 2010, I think it was when Meteorite Men was in its second season, and we're airing on science and discovery, and I was living in Tucson, and I was invited by the Tucson Sci-Fi Convention to be one of their guests that year, and they had established a science track at the sci-fi convention, but also there always was a big crossover between meteorite men and comic book people, which made me very happy, and particularly season one has a lot of comic book imagery in it, and so I enthusiastically accepted and was asked to do a presentation about adventure TV, science meteorites, the how we made the adventure show, that kind of thing, and relate it to sci-fi and comic books a bit, which I have no trouble doing. And I I met Mart Marty and I met briefly, and Eric and I met briefly, and I had a great time, and then we didn't we didn't really spend a lot of time together, but we met, and I I always remember seeing Eric darting around in his suit and his his fedora and his long coat, and I go, That guy looks just like the shadow. What an interesting character. And so we had a great time, loved the convention, wonderful convention, it's been very good to us, of course, as film producers, also. And so I was invited back the next year, and there's this guy, Eric, again, running around with his fedora and everything, and I go, Oh, there's that interesting guy from from last year, and he was doing some of the PR. And I'd been asked to organize one of the panels. I brought my friend Susie Corbell, filmmaker from New Mexico, over as a guest, and we decided that we were gonna do this little photo shoot out on the lawn of the hotel. And Eric just just leapt in like a commando. He goes, Oh, I'll assist with this. Look, we need the lights over there, and let's get a bounce card over here and bring this up. And I go, Wow, this guy's a real pro. And so we just we chatted and we hung out a bit, and then I don't know, some weeks went by, some months went by, and and I found his card. And I go, I'm gonna send that guy hello. So I I just I sent him an email and I said, I hope this isn't too bizarre. I I know we don't really know each other, but you just seem like a really interesting guy. If you ever go into a film screening or anything interesting, let me know. And and he wrote back immediately and uh and I said, Are you still up? Can I give you a call? And he he called me. We had this long conversation about filmmaking and comics and sci-fi. So that that was the that was the that was the initial meeting. The fun part of the story is was when you guys, I guess through Eric, invited me to do a little cameo in Revenge of Zoe. And the idea, of course, because it's set in the comic book world, a lot of the action takes place in a comic book store, and I had fairly recently published a memoir about my life in the comics biz called My Incredibly Strange and Amazing Real Life Adventures in the World of Comic Books. A very short, snappy title. And I I guess it was Eric's idea that I would come into the store and I would buy a copy of my own book in the shop, and we thought, oh, that'd be funny. And go, yeah, yeah, sure, I'd love to do that. That'll be great. And I went to the table read, which was in the comic store, in Charlie's comic book store, which is sadly no longer there. I was a Tucson institution for many years, and that was the first time that I'd met the cast, and I was blown away by the script, by how good the script was. And I'm sitting there in this table read, I only had a handful of lines, probably didn't really need to be there for the table read, but I'm really glad that I was. You were late in the read, too. Yeah, I really enjoyed it, and I'd say for the whole second half of the table read, I just couldn't wait for it to be over because I wanted to rush up to Eric and go, Eric, this is such a great script. Could you would you ask the guys if they might be interested in taking me on to help with this film in some way? And the embarrassing part about this is I hadn't read the whole script before the table read. I meant to, but I only I read my bit, I don't know, a page and skimmed through a few things. So I didn't know how good the script was until I actually saw the cast do it live. And so I I colored Eric afterwards with great enthusiasm and said, Man, this is just great. I just I love this script. These this is a really great cast. Go go ask the guys, do you think they might be interested? And we're just we're just complimenting Eric a few minutes ago, but you can imagine Eric very underplaying it and and say something like, Oh, yes, well, um, okay, Jeff. Yeah, I'll I'll sure I'll I'll be glad to ask them. I I'd be surprised if they said no. I said, Well, go ask them now. Well, everybody's here, I don't want to have to wait. So, anyway, so that so that so that was the story. That was just a few days before we started filming, wasn't it? Yeah, and I kind of came in and started inserting myself into all kinds of things like, oh, look at that poster, I could fix that, or what here that we need some more comic books here.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

That's my favorite, I think. Or that's when I knew it was gonna work because we put that poster up. We had this black and white poster in the film, The Frenzy Film, and it had this, when it was printed, it had this white edge around it. And Marty and I are doing 9,000 things at once, and so it just doesn't we don't stop to take the moment to say, should probably cut that border off of that. And Jeff walks up and goes, My God, uh, you've got to let me cut the border off of that poster. And I'm like, Yeah, oh like please do, yes, fantastic. And he went and cut it off and then put it back up, and it was like, Oh, that's night and day. You know, it just it was that's when it was like, Oh, this is gonna work. He gets he gets it, works that we're so nice.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

That was the beginning, wasn't it? And I had uh like day one of the shootout, yeah, and we found a cutting board, and I we found an X Acto knife and it with a it was a giant poster and it was a little board. And there's actually a photo of me doing that. I I vividly remember that, trying to cut this massive poster a little bit at a time with this very small Xacto knife on a very small cutting board in the location while everyone's getting set up. And I felt like God, aren't you being a bit nitpicky? Aren't you? They seem to be pretty pretty keen about tidying up some art things, and and then off we went.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Yeah, it was amazing. The art and set decorator had arrived, and we didn't even know it yet. Me neither.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

I thought I was only gonna do a cameo, and years later I was still here. Remember that British guy that came to do the cameo? We could never get rid of him. He was always hanging around, and then he brought his camera and started taking location photos. What a nuisance!

SPEAKER_03 11:40

Knockkin in the shotgun. That's what we call that. I got a knockkin in my shotgun. Can we get him to back up, please?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Oh gosh, how many times have I heard that?

SPEAKER_02 11:47

It's called action, and yeah, they're in the B camera, we can still see Jeff clicking off the lap. Or you can hear the you can hear the like now.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Yeah, I also learned that pretty quickly. That when uh when when Cliff yells action, you're not allowed to take any more pictures.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

And even if you do, the actors knew at that point to wait for the clicks to stop. Because you can see them like they know as well. And it's like that yeah, we all fell into a sync with it pretty quick. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Oh, that's wild. I never knew that. I guess well, and you Marty, you would have noticed that when you're doing the editing. But I I must say I got I got better. I think when we were when we were shooting uh Love Song of William Shaw, I probably only got I was only told to move on a few times. I would say less than five.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

We thought we were earlier. We thought we were gonna make some big blooper reel, but turned out there was only maybe like two or three instances this time.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

It's like, oh I guess I guess we don't have a whole you were so busy doing, I mean, you had so much more to do on the second film. You were so much busier, you just I don't think you had the time really to to roam like you did the first one, right? And um, I mean Jesus, go you were running you and Biscuit were in back and forth between those two houses alone was just a uh Herculean task for the two of you.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Yeah, and that was a that was a very interesting location film experience for all of us, I think. That we our our very good friends Jessica Stone, whom we we call Biscuit, that's her nickname, very kindly offered the use of her home as one of the locations for a love song. And then we what one of my jobs, as you you lads will well remember, was to find a pottery wheel for Billy to throw the pots on. And I thought, well, no big deal, I'll just buy one and then sell it when we're done, thinking it would be. I mean, how much would a pottery wheel cost? Like 40 or 50 bucks? No, like seven or eight hundred dollars if you can find one in the state of Arizona. So I looked and looked and looked, and I've finally found somebody who had one that we could borrow, but it was far away. And she said, Oh, it's very heavy, you'll need several guys to lift it. And I was trying to figure out uh the logistics of how are we gonna? She's a professional potter, she needs it. I can't take it away for weeks at a time. How are we gonna do this? And then and then it turns out that the biscuit says, Oh, yeah, we could use my neighbor's house directly across the street as the second location. And by the way, she's got a pottery wheel on a radio. What are the chances?

SPEAKER_03 14:22

That's it, it's just it's really creepy sometimes how that stuff lines up. Yeah, that's m that's the real movie-making magic. Yeah, the universe just giving it up. Like, well, if you guys are and that's why you that's why you do all that work and get going, right? Like, because you things like that are gonna happen I believe it. I'd like I truly believe like as as you put all that effort in the world, the universe starts kind of giving back to you and saying, Well, here, okay, you've unlocked this thing. Here you go.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Well, I like it that you treat it as a as a maybe a prize, a treasure treasure trove in a video game. To me, I feel more like the universe is going, okay, he suffered X amount of hassles and failure, and tape running out on camera, breaking down, car breaking down, gear getting stolen, person having a complete nuclear explosion on set. Now you can have a good thing. You can have here's your pottery wheel. Now get ready to solve 40 more problems before I give you another break.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

You suffered all that.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Here's your pottery wheel. It was a good universe bonus, though, because it uh yeah, I just couldn't get over that. I I don't know how we would have moved that thing. We would have had to probably take three or four guys up to uh far north of Tucson to move that. Anyway, it was a beautiful moment.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

It was. I remember um you know Bradford got lessons from Marnie, who owned the pottery wheel in the house, on how to do pottery. And I remember when it came time for him to do it, actually in on camera, she's just off to the side, just giggling uncontrollably because he's doing it so wrong that she just can't even contain herself.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

And we had that, I remember one of the one of the requests from you gents to me as as art department and prop department was we need some really horrible sculptures that Billy's made that we can have on the shelves in the background. And I actually, in a rare example of me, in fact, being able to delegate something to somebody else instead of doing it myself, I asked Marnie if she could if she would mind doing that. And I actually they're actually quite nice, the ones that she made. I know we all wanted them to look like some sort of radiation mutants because Billy would have done such an appalling job. But anyway, it it does get the point across. And yeah, there cut there comes a point when you're when you're arc directing and and working as a supporting actor in the film and doing location photography and multiple other things that you actually just can't do everything that you might like to. Yeah, that's uh well, yeah. Hence the beauty of production assistance. Could you run to the post office and ship this for us, please?

SPEAKER_03 17:02

PAs are so useful. I I can't I I we knew you know, we didn't have them before Zoe and before and and and Love Song and or uh yeah, and it was just so wow, this is I can't believe so. I just sent somebody back to go grab that. And like I remember one of the guys, one of the uh PAs went to get lunch and missed a sandwich, and I was just like, You gotta go back and get that sandwich, dude. You know, it's just like oh, this is great.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Because I'd have been the one to have to go get the sandwich, you know, or Marty. I would have been, yeah. He's been gone for two hours getting ice, and you don't have to worry about that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

That reminds me of something that happened on Meteorite Men. We were filming, I think it was the first Texas episode we we did. We were filming in the Texas, West Texas in June or July, and it was it was well into the hundreds, and we had a very new, very young PA. It was his very first day filming, and he forgot to bring forgot to load the water into the trucks for the crew, and it I think it was 105 or 106. So Sonia Bourne, our field producer, said, Look, okay, you need to get in the truck immediately and drive to the nearest convenience store and stock up on water for the crew. We're gonna need it. It's a long, long shoot day. Go now, go quickly. So he does leave right away. It takes a long time, and finally he comes back and he he had one case of water, and it was those teeny little bottles. You know, the little sit-size bottles, they're about the size of a golf ball, and then he'd only brought that for for the entire crew in 105-degree weather for what we're expecting to be a 12 or 14 hour shooting, and there was a bit of a meltdown, and he was yeah, sent back to get the missing sandwich. Get 10 cases of water, real-size bottles, not those stupid little things.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

Well, and that's when you learn, that's when you realize when you're when you're on the set and you're doing things like like we do, you know, you're the head of a department or something that you yeah, sometimes you have to just spell it out. Yeah, not just go to the convenience store, but go to the convenience store, get eight cases of 12-ounce bottles of water, come back here, put them in coolers with ice. Oh, well, while you're at the convenience store, get ice. You know, like it's you know, you have to it's and you know, because some will some get it and fit right in and go, oh, yeah, okay, that's obvious. And then others are just like, you have to explain it.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

It goes across the board in every aspect of filmmaking, too, where you you just assume, oh, they understand what I'm talking about. Oh shit, I guess they do explain myself correctly. So everybody out there, explain yourself, be completely transparent, and always have a lot of water. You might all this other stuff. People need water, especially the actors, because it's hard to do your lines if you're drinking nothing but Coca-Cola.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

I mean, I don't mind having the I don't mind having the soda on set because I like my actors to be awake, awake for the caffeine. But yeah, you gotta have the water.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

You gotta have the water too. I sometimes get accused of over-explaining things, which may well be true. I'm quite detail oriented, but my goal is I want to give somebody direction and they can go and carry out the entire task and return without having to call me and go, Jeff, did you want plastic bottles or glass bottles? Or are cans okay? Do you want gallons? Do you want they don't have this? Would be the thing. They don't have cases. Is it okay to get gallon jugs instead? Yes, obviously. Just get whatever is available. It's Texas in the summer. We need as much water as you can transport in the car yesterday.

unknown 20:41

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

But I didn't say it like that because he was a nice young guy and he was learning, and it was all good in the end, and nobody passed away in that episode.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

It was like us running around looking for water during glass production. Jesus, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

Well, I found two cases over here. Well, I we were texting each other hey, the the place up here on the north side has two case has cases of water for you know during the COVID thing.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

Remember that, Jeff? You were like, Well, I found a case of DeSani over here, and it's like, Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

I completely forgot about that. And that was also when the toilet paper and paper paper towel shortage had started, and the sanitizer shortage, and sanitizer, that's right. And actually, going back to to uh our friends who so generously provided their homes as locations, numerous other people who helped. When we were at the end and we were wrapping up everything, I said, Listen, I want we we want to get something to thank you for everything. How about fruit basket or gift card or something? And everyone said, We just want toilet paper and paper towels if you can get them.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

Yeah, we were like, Here, you can get whatever we have. Oh my goodness. Yeah, Marty will tell you on a set, I'm a two bag of ice guy. Get two bags of ice, don't get one bag of ice. Get two bags of eyes. Never an advanced advice. To those of you listening, this is solid, sound indie filmmaking advice we're giving you here.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Seems like common sense, but you get going so fast, and you're wearing 30 hats, and these these things can slip past you.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

It's so true. We're gonna probably come back to this later, but my friend David Route, who is a fantastic producer and director and and directed, was one of the two directors I worked with on my TV series, STEM journals, is uh someone I just really like working with. I think he's won seven Emmys. He's he's a brilliant guy. Yeah. And we had uh this the show STEM journals that we were doing. I was the I was the main host, and we we did different uh uh every episode was was on a different science subject. So we did astronomy and paleontology and so on. And and we quite often had young uh students, science students, come on as my was my guest co-host for a segment, and they were would typically typically be middle schoolers, and one of them was very, very keen to go into the film business. She was really fantastic, she had uh natural gift, uh speaking, learning lines, and and just being very professional. And so she asked both of us, she said, I really want to go to film school. Do you think it's a good idea? Should I go to film school? Jeff, what do you think? And I said, Well, I I didn't go to film school, I would have loved to have gone to film school for fun. I took film classes at other schools, but Dave went to film school. Asked Dave, Dave, what do you think? Should she go to film school? And he said, and this is okay, bear in mind, this is coming from a from a seven-time Emmy Award-winning director, producer. He said, I didn't learn anything at film school that I couldn't have learned working as a PA for a couple of years. And I thought, wow, there's practical advice for you. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Wow. I think I mean what there's there's two schools of thought on it, as far as I know, which is you know, you you go the education route, the book route, or you go the hands-on route, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Yeah, well, and please don't think I'm putting down film school at at all.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

No, I I don't I think whatever whatever gets you there and gets you the good, you know, gets you to make in the film, right? Like it's so hard to make a movie and finish a movie, however, you got there. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

That's a that's a that's a really good comment. And I also think it's a matter of personality, and and since I've done a lot of work with kids, a lot of educational work and outreach work, many times in in my life, parents have taken me aside and they've got teenage kids, and they go, Oh, we don't our kids don't know what to do. Should they go to college? Should they not go to college? We're so expensive, and we're just really stuck. Can you can you give our kids some advice? And I don't have kids of my own, I don't know that I'm the best person to give advice to. But what I've always said is if you're in doubt when you've finished high school, take a year off or two years off or five years off, and go out into the workplace and get some practical experience. Work as a PA, work as an intern, get a get a get a difficult job in in the service industry, so you see what it's like. And then you go, do I want to go back to college and get a degree, or do I want to go the hands-on route? And as you say, Cliff, there are there are many there are many pros to both. I think it's largely a question of of temperament and and also sadly these days, financial resources, because going to film school ain't cheap.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Exactly. And if you want to do half of what you would learn at film school on your own, just start watching as many old movies as you can and study the techniques from where they sprouted from, because that's a lot of what they're gonna teach you from in the film schools, anyways, is the origins of the techniques and whatnot. So just listen to a bunch of DVD commentaries and watch as many classics as you can and be a PA, and there you go. Yeah, that's a cheap way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

That's good advice too, and especially if you were to subscribe to one of the really great streaming services like Criterion, which which features is is is built around the concept of showing films that have undeniable quality, and and many of them are not that well known in the mainstream, and and many of them have commentaries, many of them have extra features. Other filmmakers will talk about why they love this film or they'll analyze a particular shot. And there's some great YouTube channels about filmmaking as well. We live in an age where you can teach yourself pretty much anything except brain surgery, I would I would think. I think it would just be difficult to get test subjects. I don't know, maybe not. Maybe not.

SPEAKER_03 26:35

It's weird to me that doctors call it a practice. Like I would prefer that you be proficient in it.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Um so outside of doing film, well, obviously you've got a lot of other interests, but what would be like the secondary? Is it would it be still the meteor thing or music or gosh?

SPEAKER_01 26:57

It's interesting that you've asked that, Marty, because I've I find myself at a at a crossroads at this this period in my life. So I have had the good fortune to work in in many artistic fields as a cartoonist, illustrator, photographer, uh, art director, publisher, and television host, television producer, and now indie film producer, thanks to you guys. So I've I've had very fulfilling experiences in many different fields, and I mean I I loved comics since I was a kid. I really wanted to be a cartoonist, and I worked in the comics industry for quite a few years. I had the really great good fortune to to befriend and work with and study with some of the greatest cartoonists of the last century, including Will Eisner and Harvey Kurtzman and Art Spiegelman, and my my oldest childhood friend is Neil Gaiman. So we we we grew up as kids reading comics and drawing comics together. So so comics were always in my life, and I always thought I was going to be a cartoonist. And after going to art school in New York, and I actually have a degree in cartooning and working in the comics industry, working at Raw Books and Graphics, Arts, Art Spiegelman, and Francoise Moulie Spiegelman's company for several years, I felt like well, I've I've I've filled the jar of experience of c in comics for me now. Doesn't mean I don't love comics anymore. I just wanted to do something else. And I've had that experience in publishing and in the music business. I was a professional musician for 25 or 30 years. And I'm not sure. I'm not sure. What is there that I haven't done that I'm that I'm really interested in doing? Is there anything that's like a hobby, perhaps, that doesn't have to be a professional thing?

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Maybe it doesn't have to be a professional thing. Is there like a hobby that you that you like to do in your downtime that's kind of a creative outlet?

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Or I found that in the in the past two years or two and a half years, really since the beginning of the age of COVID, I suppose, I've finally found a way to do to read the amount of literature that I've always wanted to. I've always loved books. I'm I'm a writer, as you know. I I love reading books, I collect books, I've I've worked in the publishing industry for many years. And I have a terrible habit of buying loads of books and going, oh yeah, yeah, well, I'll read this later. I'll get to the oh, this one's got such a good cover. Look at this. Oh, here's another film history book, and then not reading them. And so I have been, I've become very Stalinist in my my. If you're gonna buy a book, you're gonna have to that be is gonna be the next book that you're gonna read. So I I make time for reading virtually every day. It might only be 15 or 20 minutes, but more often it's it's an hour or more. So I've been steaming through a lot of books I've always wanted to read. That's that's something that that I enjoy. And in in the film world, uh I've again had the good fortune to have experienced a lot of different a lot of different parts of the film and TV world, all of which I've enjoyed. And I think everyone wants to be a director, right? At some point, and I mean anyone who's in film and television, everybody wants to be a director. So I ever since I was a kid, I thought, oh, being a director must be the greatest thing. And I I'm a I'm a great fan of the auteur, of the writer-director, but not necessarily the obvious ones that we would go to, like Orson Wells, uh, who's great, of course, but I'm a great fan of John Borman, Terry Gilliam, Cameron Crow, the these writer-directors from at from our era who are who are uh real creators that have have a story. Like yourselves, you come up with a story, you turn it into a screenplay, you direct it, you are you're the the film uh equivalent of of Will Eisner or Harvey Kurtzman or Art Spiegelman in the comics world, where they're writer illustrators, they do, they do the whole thing, and and so much of film and so much of illustration and design and comics is production line. One one person does this, one person does that. So I I like that the the concept of the creator who gets to to to be involved in all aspects of the production. So I'd love to do more more directing. I don't really have the the director's brain. I know you need you need a you need to be very clear about decision making and and have a picture of what you want and how you want to get there. And and I've watched you guys many, many times uh on calm days and and on pressure days and how well you work together. And you have a very unusual working relationship. The Marty does this, Marty does the storyboards and keeps track of all the shots and the technical stuff, and and Cliff is you're a little bit more hands-on with the the action and try this and talking to the actors, but but you you really work seamlessly together, and it it's it's a very unusual thing to see two writer-directors working in in harmony like that. So I like directing small things, and the I the piece that I I think was most successful for me that I enjoyed the most was a a 10-part YouTube series that I did for my meteorite men co-host Steve Arnold, called Fireball Steve. And we we did that a couple of years ago, and he wanted to do a series that really explains how you if you saw if you saw a meteor or a fireball in the sky, what do you do? How do you how do you track that? How do you find it on the ground? How do you identify it? So he he came out to Tucson and we we designed and built a a set. We wanted a wanted it to look like a mad scientist set of a bit a bit like Blitzkrieg's lab at the in the trailer at the beginning of Revenge of Zone, actually. So I I really loved doing that. It was a very interesting experience for me because Steve and I had worked so very closely together for over three seasons of Meteorite Men, which took four years, it was four years of work to make the three seasons. So that I like that uh I like being able to have a picture in your mind of how a thing is gonna be and then bring it into existence. And it's not that different from writing a book or executing a painting. In my creative world, I usually have a uh it's almost like a vision in my mind of what the thing will be at the end, and then how do I get it? Yeah, and I I directed a well, actually, my my limited experience as a director also began with Meteorite Men. It was the Wisconsin fireball episode, and we there this enormous fireball had been seen in in uh late 2009 over over Wisconsin. And we we went there and we filmed and we didn't find anything, and then we went back and we went back, and I think we ended up going about five times over a period of several months. And and at one point, some some watcher, I guess fan would be the wrong word, but some watcher had posted on our Facebook or whatever, some chat room, oh, it's so obvious that you guys didn't film that all in one go because in at the beginning the tree leaves are green and then at the end they're brown. And I I would always try and answer these things, and I go, Yeah, you're absolutely right. We went back five times over the period of a year looking for these meteorites and trying to complete this episode. It was a really tough one. And I think on the fourth trip, the there was no director. I can't remember if he got sick or forgot, or they just didn't book a director, and Steve and I are out there in the middle of nowhere with a cameraman and a sound man, and that was it. And and so I said, Well, I guess we're directing ourselves in this segment. And it it's interesting it always interests me when you see actors who become directors, Clint Eastwood being a great example, and I think a really great director, one of my favorite living directors, and Ron Howard, also what a fantastic career starting as a child actor. For some people, I think you spend enough time in the film and television environment and you absorb enough to go, okay. I think I understand how to direct now. I really doubt that Ron Howard went to film school after all of his experience in television. He probably absorbed film school, yeah. So I could I could see more of that. I could see more uh more directing, perhaps. And another uh uh a neglected love of mine is paleontology. I love fossils and fossil collecting, and the fossils are a heck of a lot easier to find than meteorites, so um I don't know. Maybe maybe we'll come back to that later. I got a I got a funny fossil hunting story.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

You mentioned our decision-making process, and I remember the day that you came onto the set to do your scene. You showed up with a couple of outfit choices. I thought maybe this or this with that and so on, and you're showing it to me and Marty, and I said, let's do it with this shirt, let's do that shirt, but let's do it with this jacket. And I walked away, and you seemed I don't know, I didn't know you very well at that time, but you didn't seem happy. Like I I don't know, you you just you weren't going about the business of putting on the costume, you were just sort of sitting there looking at it. I said, Is everything wrong? And he went, No, it's just that I don't normally work with people who know exactly what they want. And I thought I thought, well, okay. I mean I don't have time to not know what I want.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

We gotta shoot this thing. Oh, that's so great. Gosh, I don't remember that, but I definitely remember the day, and I that was the t-shirt that said Ashcan Comic. Ash can comic on it, yep. Which is uh which is one of the many in jokes that we put in the film because an Ashcan comic is uh is a fake comic book that's put together for promotional purposes, or a prop or similar. So good.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

So we normally have a question for actors about what their dream role is, but I'm gonna mix it up a little bit for you. What's your favorite thing to do on a film set?

SPEAKER_03 37:09

Ooh, good question. Because you've done like yeah, I mean she was like, I love everything costume, costume, set design, art direction, photography, um uh production, uh pre-production. I mean, you've done so much stuff.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

What an interesting question. Actually, I'd love to answer the acting question as well if we have time, but but let's do this first. I the thing that came into my mind is is a is a story that that Cliff and I have laughed about to ourselves many times, but I just think it's one of the most brilliant things that's happened in my filmmaking and television making experience, and it's to do with costumes. And this goes back to the time when Revenge of Zoe was screening at the Silver City Film Festival. That is that right, Silver So that's what it's called. Silver City Film Festival in Russia. The Orleans, Orleans Casino, right? So Cliff calls or mentioned on one of our regular production calls that that he and his lovely wife are going to Vegas to see Revenge of Zoe because it's in the film festival and it's playing at the Orleans, and I go, The Orleans, man, I would love to see our movie on that big, big screen. So I decided to fly up and meet them. We had a blast, we had we had some extra time, and the day before the screening, we went for this lovely lunch, and that's we're we were going through the we were going through the love song script that day. We sat down and went over it page by page.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

I had lunch and went over it page by page, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

And who knew that there was a beautiful cafe in the a beautiful botanical garden in Las Vegas? It's not it's not what I would have.

SPEAKER_03 38:50

I was shocked it was gonna be. Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Yeah, so I'd done a bit of research and I found this strange-looking little antique mall place. And I said to Cliff, do you like these kind of weird shops? And let's we've got we've got a little bit of time before the screening, let's go. And so we all just we jumped in a cab and we drive to this pretty run-down section of old Vegas, and here's this collection of funny little shops in a strip mall. And it was one of those, one of those antique market places where there are a bunch of different vendors inside one area, and it was quite small. And we were Cliff and I were thrilled because we found some some old punk rock stuff, and just your typical knickknacks, Vegas shot glasses, and this and that. There wasn't much of interest. And then I wandered into this room in the back, and it's it's a very tiny room, and it is just jam-packed full of costumes, of every kind of costume you can think of. Dance stuff, historic stuff, and there's this busted-up mannequin, this female mannequin that's missing an arm and part of its head in the corner, looking just looking really sad. And there's this very strange outfit on it that looks like maybe something from a Roman gladiator movie, but clearly a woman's costume. And I was just on transfixed by this thing, it was really well made, had all the rhinestones on it, yeah. Leather, very detailed headdress and and gauntlets. It was just beautiful. So I kept and I go, Well, okay, I don't know. It's this very strange, uh, slightly kinky looking costume. I I don't know, I'm just very enthralled by it. So I then I walk around and then I go back and look at the costume and back and forth. And and Cliff knows me pretty well. And after a while, he comes over and he's just standing there with his arms folded looking at me. And he goes, he goes, I see you really, I see you're really interested in this costume, Jeff. I'll tell you what, if you buy that costume, I'm gonna put it in the movie. And I said, You're on, you're on. You are you are the perfect enabler. You've given me a really good reason to buy this costume. I don't know why I want this costume, but I do. So I I bought it and I took it back to my hotel room in Vegas and I laid it out on the bed and I took a photograph of it and I sent it to Jessica Stone, who became our biscuit, who became our associate producer, because she's a costuming expert. She makes her own costume, she collects vintage costumes, she restores expert cosplayer, restores vintage clothing. And I said, Look at this thing, and she she flipped over it. So because of that, we ended up. She, I gave her the costume, she repaired it. Well, it when I when I purchased it in the store, the the owner of the place was so thrilled and said, Oh, this belongs to this collection from someone who bought one bought the entire inventory of this old costume shop that used to make the wardrobe for all the Vegas floor shows. So it's actually a legitimate historic Vegas costume. Yep. And and Jessica said, I think she estimated it was from the 70s, but we we didn't really know. So she repaired it, she wears it in the film, she got cast in the film so that she could wear this costume. You guys wrote this part for her to wear this costume, and then I began to realize the full extent of her many artistic talents, and she came on board as an associate producer, as my assistant art director. We ended up shooting a large chunk of the film in her house, and it's because of her that we shot at Marnie's house, who had the the pottery wheel that we so desperately needed. So as a result, I became very interested in costumes, and that was something I never really gave that much attention to before. But I was so enamored by by this story, and what what a small thing, this sly remark from Cliff, who can see me obsessing over this very strange antique costume.

SPEAKER_03 42:49

Well, I wanted you to buy it, and I kept thinking, I was like, you should just buy it. He's obviously into it, he's got the money, it's not gonna kill anything. Just buy the damn costume. And then I thought, I'll just give him a reason to buy it. That's what I'll do.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

And and you know, Jessica wouldn't give it back to me after that. Oh, that's hilarious. Yeah, she no, she's still got it. And she goes, I have to have the I'm in I'm in love with this costume, I have to have it. And she goes, I couldn't bear the thought of you giving it to somebody else. And I go, I'm not gonna give it to somebody else. I just thought I might put it on a mannequin and keep it as a memento of the film. But anyway, she still has it. I don't think I'm ever gonna see it again. Anyway, it's in great hands. Good work, Jessica. Uh she fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

She brought again you work with people, you meet people, and you work with people that bring so much to the table. You and Jessica and and so on. It's it it adds. That's how you level up a film. That's how you level up your production. You bring in people, you let them do their what they're talented at and what they're good at and what they're passionate about, you know?

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Well, you guys do. Not everybody does that, but that's one of the reasons it's so great working with you is you you're able to identify what people are good at and you encourage them to pursue those areas without uh uh without nitpicking w without without uh micromanaging and with with a great deal of enthusiasm and encouragement and it's very rare in in film and television to be given the the the freedom to go do what you what you do best without somebody all the time going well you know it's a little bit too green or you should know it's too loud it's too quiet needs to be bigger or smaller and anyway I feel like I didn't I didn't really answer your question that that was just that was just a funny story that so that was something that that enthralled and delighted me and I I love the causality of that the enormous the enormous cause and the enormous uh amount of positive benefit that came from us going to that antique store in Vegas that day which I would not also none of that would have happened if you guys hadn't submitted to the to the Silver City Film Festival so so well done. Well and then you got to see that was a great trip you got to see me damn near lose my shit at a film festival we got to see you buy a costume it was a it was quite a trip it was fantastic it was a it was a really fun time and it made me appreciate the enormous value of sitting down with you and going over a script going over screenplay when it's in production and yes I'm I'm not sure I'd ever done that well I I I'd done that on my own but I'm not sure I'd ever sat down with the writer of a script before and gone through it page by page and said what about this and and I mean you wasn't being bossy you asked me for my for my feedback and it was very exciting to and and rewarding to to be able to go through that. But I should I should mention that one of the things that I've enjoyed the most and was certainly one of the most time consuming was designing the props for the comic book shop for CBDs in in love song film. There was a bunch of them I mean what a what a what a tale that was so of course in Revenge of Zoe we filmed extensively in Charlie's comic book shop and I had a great relationship with Charlie and he was really wonderful to us very welcoming and it it was it was good and bad to film in a real comic book shop. It was good because it was a real comic book shop and we didn't have to put much fake stuff in there we put in some Zoe posters and a few of our own things but then we of course had these experiences where actual customers come in while we're filming and Charlie said yes yes you can shoot here but I can't curtail business and in one instance that you'll you guys well remember one customer stayed for so long that we asked them if they'd be an extra in the film and we just just shot this gentleman at comic books. And and then because COVID delayed the the completion of of love song Charlie decided to retire from the business and he sold his shop and he didn't have a comic book store anymore and we didn't have a location anymore. So after much soul searching we decided collectively that we would build a comic book set and I have to again thank Peach Properties the property management company in Tucson that so very generously allowed us to use their gorgeous property one one tool Avenue in downtown Tucson a beautiful historic brick building right by the train tracks circa 1900 for several days and and we built an entire comic book set there and and we got a twofer in that didn't we because we shot in the basement as well for the for the scenes with Adam and John but something that's worth pointing out to to the casual listener is we can't stock our comic book shop set with Spider-Man and Superman comics. We don't have permission to use those very heavily copyrighted images that are owned by big powerful companies and so the gigantic assortment of comic books and posters and artwork that you see in CBDs or you will see in C BDs in the love song of William H. Shaw were either done by friends of ours friends and colleagues and we sought permission to to put those pieces in or they were created by me. And I I don't remember how many comic book covers I did but I I must have been at least 30 or 40 I would say comic book posters comic book covers rather movie posters book covers that gigantic robot cutout was created from scratch underground robots yeah so we really wanted to make this comic book store feel real and when you go into a comic book store what do you see loads of fan stuff stickers and posters and toy robots and gas masks and all kinds of crazy stuff. And so the I got really carried away with it and it it wasn't enough for me to just do a couple of comic book covers and repeat them they all they had to be different. And so some of them were some of them were based on my artwork some of them were were artwork that I licensed some of them were were copyright free things but yeah loads and loads and loads of comic book covers and I had a lot of uh I generated a lot of amusement for myself doing that especially that metal robots of the underground series where I think there's nine or 11 covers of from this imaginary series I don't know what the heck metal robots of the underground are but I had a lot of fun with the covers and they're all kinds of silly little jokes about robots and puns and things in in the covers.

SPEAKER_03 49:24

So I love that and I I would say my favorite single piece is probably that frenzy apocalypse poster that's on the back of the store which is also right yeah the um not not the not the giant frenzy poster that we had in the in the unveil scene right no no no the one yeah the one where she's got the gun and the explosion behind her photograph of Rachel with the with the mushroom cloud going off behind her. That was three films three films and that's the first time we ever had to build a comic book store or fake one.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Three movies about a comic book store and that's funny we ever had to do that in in the uh if you count the fourth one we were going to build a comic book store in that one and we were going to do it on the same side of town so when we get all the way to the end of the saga we ended up having to having to do it but we got to it's a good thing we didn't try to do that you know way back when because it would have been terrible enough now I mean Jeff would just hang out in the place.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

We'd all leave he's like I'm just gonna stay here for a couple more hours just listen to my music and just just enjoy his creation it's true isn't it we go early as well and go I want to make sure everything's just right and move some of these comic books around and it was it was I've always loved the feeling of being in a set especially when there's nobody else there before before the film the day's filming starts and we're tweaking the lights and there's this strange atmosphere it's like being in a club at soundcheck. It's the you've got this this place that's been created for the purpose of a show or filming and it's going to be populated with actors or musicians but they're not there yet and it's like a secret time where everything's set up yeah and the lights are on and all the things are there all the goodies are there but there's no activity yet and you can there's this there's a there's a tranquility uh a a magical aura to a to a place like that and I I think I first experienced that when I was a kid and I went to Disneyland when I was 10 with my parents and we stayed right till we stayed until midnight when it closed we wanted to see the fireworks and there's virtually nobody left and we were in we were in uh the wild west in the frontier town I think and there was nobody around and I went over and I started looking at the the the prop uh storefronts that they had there's the the Minor 49er shack and the pickaxes and the the pans for gold and the canteens and all these things and I went up and looked at them and really up close because there were no guards there's no there's no one around and it it was all fake but it was so well done and I was I was entranced by the by the by the illusion of it that they were they're just facades there's nothing behind the building or maybe there's a foot of wood around each corner to make it look like but I it goes back but then I stuck my head around the back and I go well there's nothing there this is just this is just a fabrication to create the illusion of a western town and it works really well and so I I've always been fascinated by that experience and also uh literature and films that that that poke at that idea of of the nature of reality or facades philip Philip K.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

Dick does that a lot of course you see that in in Patrick McGuin's The Prisoner this this I this idea of something itself being a set you're in a set you're existing in a set that's not actually quite the real world you're gonna like the new script Jeff you're gonna like the new script yeah you're gonna like it's funny because you you tap into one of the things that's one of my favorite aspects is just the whole illusion aspect of it of you know the movies itself were it it's one giant illusion we're making you think that this is all happening in a row and I'm just I'm always fascinated by that sleight of hand aspect and you know we we know we know the tricks but other people don't know the tricks and they think it is all magic and and illusions and and stuff like that. And you know I hung out on that set when there was nobody in there as well the comic book store and I know what you mean it had it had this serene calm vibe to it which is very unusual for a a film set because there's usually all something going on but I I understand why you'd like to hang out in that place when nobody else was around because it was just it was very calming.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

I like that excellent well I'm so glad you had that experience too and it's a difficult thing to explain yeah it's uh it's as if it's a it's a it's a world that you've created it's a private world and when the crew and the actress and the the action has not that they haven't arrived yet the action has not yet begun it has such a different mood yeah than when the cameras are rolling and and we're all we're all working and thriving in that in that environment.

SPEAKER_03 54:23

You mentioned Philip K. Dick we we buried some references to him in that in that too oh yes we did.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

Yeah we gotta try to enter into that Philip K.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

Dick Film Festival as yeah that was that was one that was a fun that was another example of you guys encouraging my madness where I I because Philip Dick's my my favorite writer science fiction or otherwise and I I've I've studied his work in in great detail for for many years and I was associate producer on the on the radio free album a feature film that came out a few years ago so that was that was a a rather uh spectacular experience of of working on something that you care deeply about. But we we we came up with this idea that we would collectively that we would put these Philip Dick references in in the film and they're they're just loads of them and and one of one of my favorites is is that is the poster that's that's in in Billy's apartment. Billy's apartment that poster is so good.

SPEAKER_02 55:26

The world that Jane made and that's uh I don't know how much we should explain that but the well I I ran across the book that that was inspired by at work and it just put a smile on my face because I immediately see the poster oh marvelous idol I'm like idle with this oh great well so we should probably explain so a very early Philip K.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Dick novel was called the world that Jones made and and and Phil had a twin sister named Jane who who died at birth and he always felt a spiritual some sort of spiritual or otherworldly connection to her throughout his life and so the world that Jane made is is really Philip Dick. So it was it's a it's a it's a reference on multiple layers and and the credits on that poster all the they're all characters from Philip Dick novels that from a lot of the famous novels like Ubick and and uh three stigmat of Palmer Eldridge but there are there are a lot of other ones that that's just that's one of the one of the most noticeable remember we had that idea for a like a a a small art book of all the images and stuff and that way because then people could actually read all those credits on those posters and shit.

SPEAKER_02 56:37

I mean we have so many creative ideas that we'd love to do but I I always did like that concept of the art book and art or whatever it was going to be.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

Well I've thought about that a lot and you'll remember that I actually we were we were thinking of of calling it the Art of Frenzy and collecting not just my work but beautiful work that was done by other artists like Carl Ottersberg the illustrator who who did our beautiful theatrical poster for for Zoe and the artists who did the earlier comic book covers and so on. Oh the line drawings for the opening of Revenge Molly Kylie's beautiful line drawing love and that's another hard to believe amazing story about uh how things sometimes just fall into place for for filmmaking when we were we were wondering what to do for the opening credits of of Revenge of Zoe and we we were in agreement that we wanted some sort of comic based theme but we didn't really know what I was sitting in the in the car park you know I know road outside Sprouts one night at night just sitting in my truck I don't know why I was doing it there. You know I was I was looking it through my Instagram I was looking through Instagram accounts for cartoonists. I just did a search for something like Fantastic unusual cartoon line art drawings and I'm just sitting there in the dark going through these images and I I see this one I go I love this this would be perfect what is this and I I click on it and it takes me to the page of an artist named Molly Kylie and I go I know this now I recognize that name she used to work for Fantagraphics in the 90s she was a quite a well known cartoonist. I never met her but what beautiful work I wonder where she lives Tucson Arizona I thought she was an older send her a message and I go we never met but I I know your work from the old days I also used to work for Fantagraphics a bit and uh I'm looking for a cartoonist to do some work on a film are you interested and she goes yeah yeah let's meet for lunch and we met at that funny little airport that really cute little the Marana regional airport where there's a little cafe a little restaurant and I thought this is what life is all about I found a I found a famous underground cartoonist on Instagram who happens to live in the same town as me and we're going to meet at a tiny restaurant at a virtually unknown airfield out in the desert it almost sounds like the alternate universe version of Casablanca in reverse she's got the key to the virus that we need to save the world and she's just she's such a lovely person and so not only did she do the beautiful line art that we used in the animated intro titles to Revenge of Zoe but she also does a cameo in Love Song she's the she's the customer wearing the cat head in in CBDs and there's a lot of her artwork on on on the wall her original artwork on the wall in the comic book shop.

SPEAKER_02 59:41

She's like our Blofeld in a way because you would only see the hand and the in credits just like question mark we we're not telling you who's playing this person but the funny thing is it's like her name is right above her in the store. So if you're who's under that cat head well look at the name right behind the cat head and there's your answer.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:00

Oh when I saw the when I saw the credits in production I didn't realize that was intentional.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:05

I thought you didn't know who was it's it I mean we can go either way that was just my initial joke with oh nice the mystery of who is this person under the cat head?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:15

We don't know off given away now good job well there's always editing cliffs yes true I have a question um so this is one of the questions I like to ask everyone um do you have a you've you've obviously been in front of the camera before it's not not you're not foreign to that so do you have some favorite feedback that you've ever gotten from a director and and how do you like to receive feedback from a director if if you like to receive feedback at all gosh it's an unusual it's a it's a that's a very thoughtful question Cliff I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to to David Route who I mentioned earlier.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:59

So he was he was one of my STEM journalist directors and a very talented guy also editor and and producer and when we started working on the show he sent me a questionnaire which I found quite odd he's got a very good sense of humor he's a very he's a very funny guy very intelligent guy really good company we've stayed very good friends and he sent me this odd questionnaire and it was all things like where did you grow up what's your favorite food what kind of car do you drive and I thought I'd feel like I'm at school I never had a thing like this before for a for a TV show or a film. So I called him I go Dave what's the purpose of this question I don't mind doing it but what what what's this about and and he said well I just want to learn I just want to learn more about you and I I think this will help so I go oh well okay so why not so I I filled out all the questions and one of them was do you have any phobias and I'm being very naive and just trusting that this is sort of a kind of nondescript thing that we're just doing so like an idiot I fill out my my phobia is bees I I'm terrified of bees I love bees I I I find them the most fascinating creatures but but I I've I just have several times seen swarms of those killer bees in southern Arizona on the move and man it's terrifying so so very foolishly I put bees there for phobia and then and then didn't really think about it again. And then a few weeks later I get a script from Dave from this new episode that we're doing of STEM journals called Social Insects and he called me with great amount of glee and he goes I wrote this specially for you and so we did termites out in the desert and then we did a thing on ants and then we went to the ASUB lab in eastern eastern east of Phoenix and I believe there were 32 active hives. And it wasn't enough to just look at them in the lab I had to go out and inspect the hives and so I put on a bee suit and the helmet and all that and so okay you might think oh well big deal you've got a phobia about bees you've got to go out and walk around through some hives but you're wearing a you're wearing a bee suit so so how scary can that be and and so my answer to that is why don't you put on a fireman suit and jump into an active volcano and see how you feel so it was an absolutely terrifying experience to have these bees hundreds of bees swarming around me even though I'm in this suit the whole time I'm thinking I'm sure there's a way that they could get in or maybe there's some kind of special bee and their stinger will go right through it right through this. So so afterwards I go Dave what was what was the point of all what was the point of all of that and he said he said your fear and your courage were so real that you couldn't have faked that you can't that's not something that you could manufacture. And so my takeaway from that what I've learned and what I tell people who tell me that they want to be in television and what should they know I say the one most important takeaway is the more you suffer and the more hardship you go through and the more terrified you are while making the show the better television you get on screen. So while it wasn't it wasn't exactly it wasn't exactly direction but that that was a very useful takeaway and uh another thing that comes to mind is Debbie Myers who who was the general manager of Science Channel and a a great supporter of of Meteorite men and and our boss when when we were making the show we absolutely loved working with her she was really committed to education and and quality television and Steve and I had a call with her uh well we had many calls with her but one day we we were we were talking about we'd done season one we were getting ready to go into season two and she said the the thing about the show that meant the most to her was the authenticity and the enthusiasm and she said it doesn't matter how good an actor you are you can't fake that you can't fake the enthusiasm and with you guys it's real your enthusiasm is real for what you do and that's what that's what we aspire to and I I wrote it down and I printed it out on beautiful paper twice and I had it framed and I sent one to Steve and I kept one in my office and I I still have it I still carry it around with me. So that but stay in touch if you can with the genuine joy and enthusiasm whenever you can because real enthusiasm real excitement will always will always overshadow manufactured enthusiasm.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:48

I think that's what people kind of I think that's that thing that people catch on to when they're on our sets that they that keep them you know that they're like oh I really want to be involved in this it's like Marty and I are very genuine and enthusiasm

SPEAKER_01 1:06:00

enthusiastic about what we're doing and we're doing it you know because we love doing it and we're trying to make something great right now for sure that's very true and it's a very it's uh it's an efficient set but it's a very friendly set and yeah and uh I I uh Marty's very calm Cliff's very we have to get this done fill it okay hurry up move this move this along but not in a mean way just in it in an authoritative way but funny also and and I mean you you guys will crack up laughing when something funny happens and and it is it's so it's always well received when someone does a little prank or mixes up their lines and everybody cracks up. No you guys never get annoyed at that you you you enjoy that.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:40

Paul pulled the greatest one on on um Bradford during Revenge of Zoe it's a poor so Bradford there's a there's a scene in Revenge of Zoe where he he's in the hotel room he's in his hotel room he's drinking he's really enjoying it and he's in a bath towel right he's just that's it just a bath towel and he's drinking and somebody starts knocking at his hotel room door and he thinks it's the maid so he keeps saying yeah leave me alone go away I don't need no towels whatever and threatens the whoever's knocking that he's gonna uh you know open I'm gonna answer that door I swear to God and so he walks over he drops the towel walks over and it's just a shot of his back his butt basically and he rips the door open and our actor Paul is standing there and so we tried the like you know the whole sock or whatever thing and he's just like screw it let's just go and so he's he's bare bare ass naked and and he opens the door and Paul's got his phone out and makes a fake phone noise and Bradford's like just dove to the floor and I mean I thought I was gonna pass out laughing and Paul's like look no photo he's showing him like I didn't take I wouldn't do that to you but it was and it's it's on camera that it's uh actually on camera of him doing it and it's it's really hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:54

That's a really great scene too and and and Bradford plays that really well his annoyance is palpable. Okay I warn you and you see what's coming you know he's gonna drop the towel to the maid it's such a good and then of course it's not the maid it's his agent it's such a good scene I love that so you're do you have oh go ahead sir sorry no please I was gonna say so your dream role is beekeeper right that's oh very good so maybe I could play um maybe I could play John Belushi in a in a biopic with the buzzing bees from there you go from from Saturday Night Live.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:32

So what point what was your dream role to go back to that quickly before we jump into the next thing from Cliff there it's it's that's something that that really interests me and and I've I've thought about I've thought about this a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:44

So most the majority of my career has been in nonfiction television and and in documentaries and so I've done loads and loads of of science and excuse me science and adventure television and some acting which I I have enjoyed immensely and and thank you very much for the opportunity for for real acting roles the the type of role that would appeal to me a dream role would be to would be to play a character from history that that I really admire a hero of mine but perhaps not um not an obvious so not so not an obvious character and something that comes to mind is is what's called the bone wars that went on in in the late 1800s between two great American paleontologists OC Marshall Epic Drinker Coach do you do you know about yeah isn't that the one where he walked in and like was like you got the head on the wrong end of the skeleton so these two well done so these two started off as colleagues and became fierce rivals between in in the last about the last 30 years of the 19th century and they were both eminent scientists and paleontologists but they were they were quite different characters and there is a fantastic nonfiction book about about them and their lives and their work called the Gilded Dinosaur which which I absolutely love. And so I I've always I've always really been drawn to the story because of course it it it it includes my interest in paleontology and and the wild west and this and early science and adventure big adventure like Indiana Jones level adventure dinosaur hunting this this fierce competition between these two guys this or this really a war between them who can find the biggest and best and newest and most important dinosaur and I I like both characters but I'm but I'm I'm always a little bit drawn towards OC Marsh I I I just I find him a spectacular character but if I were to play him in in a movie which uh maybe we'll do this when we when we get the multi-million dollar infusion of cash that we're expecting uh any millennium now coming coming soon good I would have to grow a really preposterous beard and mustache but I would do that for for the opportunity to to to do that so the the opportunity the chance to inhabit a character from history that I really admired who was somewhat in my field as well I would cat I would cast you just to see the mustache and the beard yeah you would wouldn't you you rascals yes yes absolutely kidding me don't tell me don't tell me you're afraid of bees you know who I am no we're gonna see bees in the next film just kidding no I'm allergic so no bees oh okay no I'm I am too actually which just adds to the just adds adds to the right yeah and and another an another way of answering that would just would be the opportunity to to be in a film adaptation of of a work by an author that I that I particularly liked like like Philip Dick for example to and and as mentioned I I was lucky enough to work on radio free album so so I worked on a Philip K. Dick novel in a production capacity but but to to act a role that had been written by an author you adored I think that'd be a great that would be a a very fulfilling accomplishment in life.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:11

I would give a couple fingers and toes to to be able to get a budget for like a uh William Gold uh William Gibson script I would same here you need a yeah sure you know I mean it it's it's worth the trade off if I can if I can make neuromancer the may I way I want to make neuromancer or count god forbid count zero yeah I'll take that all day long.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:32

Yeah neuromancer is one of my all time favorite science fiction books it's actually it's fantastic it really is fantastic and it was it's a it's a it's a genre defining moment everything was different after yes neuromancer yes and he coined so many phrases in that book I mean he created cyberpunk with that book yeah just created he was like here I'm just gonna create this entire genre everybody's gonna they're gonna base games on it and all kinds of stuff and you know I I put him at the same level as HG Wells and Mary Shelley he's yeah he's a major major figure in science fiction and and literature you have you have a Gibson story I believe yes he's a very nice gentleman too I I I once was lucky enough to hang out with him in New York I'd gone to a to a reading by Jack Womax the sci-fi writer who who wrote Elvisy which is a book that I really like and it was in this funny little underground liter literally underground i'm not i don't mean I don't mean secret well it was secret but I mean a below ground club in New York City and I somehow heard about it it didn't seem like it was widely advertised I was invited by a friend of a friend and went really enjoyed the reading had a great time and there's William Gibson in the audience in small audience on a I don't know late was late Friday night in the East Village so when the reading was over I went up to him and said I'll just introduce myself love your work great fan of your work neuromancer probably said something what I just said to you which was a genre defining moment and I said fancy a drink and he goes yeah sure and so we went over and we just sat at that bar in this this little underground club for a long time and had a really fascinating conversation and he's just a really nice person obviously brilliant but but warm and uh what what a moment and it it was one of those times in my life where it's sitting there on the stool uh drinking cocktails with William Gibson going there are so many people that wish they could be sitting at the stool right now right now enjoying this moment yeah so I became an extra fan after that it's such a it's such a delight when you meet someone whose work you admire in the real world and they turn out to just be a splendid person.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:40

Yeah that's that's how I felt about Trejo and when we met Trejo it was just like this guy is awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:47

Yeah what a great dude the ears and say hey can we use can we use one of your songs in our film which is something I've been doing over and over again for the past few years.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:59

So yes I think that's great it's it's great because it's just it's like look at all this quality freaking music we're getting our hands on man it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:09

Well and thank you guys for for letting me do it and I know this is something that we have kind of thrown around as an idea and I I remember saying to you guys this was a little while after Baby Driver came out and I said not counting baby driver which just came out what is the last film you saw that had such a kick ass rock and roll soundtrack it made you want to go out and buy the album think think about it. And I I think I think we agreed on gross point blank was probably it may have been it I think that was one of the ones that was was thrown around so that was my that was the bar I I want to make a soundtrack of great music that's very high energy all original music not canned music that is so good that people would want the album or the playlist and so you guys said well if you can if you can make it happen go do it so one of the first things I did was have a custom t-shirt printed that said kick ass rock and roll soundtrack and I just wore that around the house while I was thinking about how to do it so so just an so an example of of so of how important music is to me. So there are a lot of there are a lot of music films that are very that are very meaningful to me. The winner hands down is Westway to the world the story of the clash the official clash documentary so clash of my favorite band of all time how convenient for me that my favorite ever music documentary is about my favorite ever band that that just worked out really well and directed by Don Letz who was their sound man and traveled with the band for many years and went up later was in big audio dynamite with Mick Jones clash guitarist so very interesting filmmaker. To me it's the definitive rock documentary it's the definitive punk rock documentary Don Letz does such a fantastic job of mixing a a a an emotional snapshot of that time really takes me back to what London was like in the late 70s the how grim it was under the conservative government and all these houses and buildings boarded up and the birth of punk rock the the political strife the the racial tension the police ration strikes too right oh yeah garbage strikes coal miner strikes power cuts it was it was it was pretty grim in England then so but it so but it's not a bleak film it just it recaptures that that atmosphere that led to the to the birth of punk rock and then he does these brilliant sit-down interviews with all the members of the clash the definitive interviews this is the official story of this tremendously important band and Joe Strummer is a hero of mine one of my my favorite musicians and lyricists and also one of my most admired public speakers and when I started doing a lot of public speaking I studied Joe I watched Joe's interviews because he's such a passionate speaker and so articulate and the film was made fairly fairly shortly before he passed away and it's it's a great testament to the band. So and I was at two of the concerts uh of which they have footage in the film so so that so that's that's a deeply meaningful film to me. That's one of those films that whenever I see a copy I just buy it because I know somebody's gonna want it and I just I just I've distributed to the world many copies of that DVD and well that's that's a big statement. The definitive punk rock documentary that's a big statement because I mean I haven't seen Westway to the world I I think I may have seen it years ago but I haven't seen it in a while but to me that's that's um um my why am I suddenly blocking on it um the the um it's the West Coast uh punk rock documentary oh decline of western civilization of western civilization yeah why how did I just blank on that but yeah decline to me is the definitive punk rock but it if it's that if it's that level I gotta go see this thing again it's it's a wonderful film and it I like it because it's not just live footage there's plenty of live footage but the the the footage of them on stage and the footage of of what England was like and and the youth movement was like at that time combined with these very professionally done very candid interviews it it's it's miraculous to me it it really presents the the picture of the band and I also have to give a very favorable mention to the Runaways biopic from 2010 which so I I saw the runaways when I was a teenager and I saw Joan Jett many times. And I I'm a massive fan I think Joan Jett's a brilliant musician I loved the runaways and so that film is so accurate it's so authentic the the costumes and the guitars the album covers the everything that they recreated and Joan Jett of course executive producer on that film which is no doubt one of the reasons it's so it's so authentic but I I I love that but for actual musical well I'm not sure if you'd even quite quite call this a musical but but Baz Luhrmann's Elvis which which just came out this year I haven't seen it but I keep hearing great reviews man I I had this experience about 12 minutes into the film where I actually thought to myself it's almost not worth making films anymore because this is so transcendent this scene it starts about 10 minutes into the film and and Elvis as a as a young boy I'm not giving any anything away you'll when you when you see the film you'll go oh this is the scene Jeff was talking about Elvis is a little boy and he hears this music coming out of coming out of a shack and he runs over with with uh couple of his friends he's probably I don't know six or seven or eight and and big boy crud up the the blues player is is playing and and there's a woman dancing and and then they hear this more intense music and there and you see a tent across this kind of sunburned grassy plain and he runs over there and there's a there's a gospel performance going on this this this spiritual almost magical gospel performance and so and and uh and cruttups uh playing that's all right mama but a very slow bluesy version of it and then it blends with the with the gospel music and then the film starts cutting to him going to Sun studios and recording the sun sessions there and then it starts cutting to his first he's getting psyched he's back he's outside he's getting psyched for his first performance at the at the hayride and keeps cutting back to Elvis is this little boy and his his hands are going up and he's he's being taken over he's going into this trance in the in the in this in the in the gospel music service and it's as if the this this this powerful spirit this energy of black music is is is going into Elvis and up into into the sky or into heaven it's an astonishing moment in film where where if it it I imagine that Baslerman said to himself I want to something like I want to show what would happen if you were possessed by music if if a if this this this uh this benevolent spirit of of of music went into you and caused the birth of rock and roll what would that look like and it's such a masterful mixture of of of filming and and and visual editing and audio editing it's just to me it was a transcendent moment in film. It's just just it's it's wow. So do go do go and see that when you uh when you when you have the chance yeah it's a heck of a movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:50

And I'm sure you've experienced that at concerts in real life where you've been to special shows where the performers are just like wow you're just channeling you know right there right in front of your face it's this nothing quite like a really amazing concert.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:05

I like a piece of my soul at the at the dirt Alice and Chains concert at the two scientific centers there's still a part of me in the basement just throwing up the horns and screaming rooster to this day.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:17

It's funny as an aside and I don't know if you want to sniff this or not uh you're mentioning that in that clash documentary you were at two of the shows. Yes well they made uh Kurt Cobain documentary Montage of Heck. I'm not really that fond of it. I think it's a little tabloidish but strangely enough the Phoenix show that Cliff and I attended is featured in the footage. And I just how weird that of all the things the show that we were at is in that footage just odd when when right when you're watching the documentary and you're like wait a minute I was not a part of this history but I was I witnessed a piece of it as it was happening. It's just just crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:58

That's great and you and you become part of the history and and one of those two one of those two clash concerts is is the famous outdoor concert they did at Victoria Park in in the late 1970s and it it was it was the first big rally of the anti-Nazi league it was it was the Rock Against Racism movement. And I I think there were an estimated 8000 people there. Wow and we didn't know there was no info of course many years before the internet and it was just a poster that said clash steal pulse sham 69 we didn't know anything or when everybody anybody was playing and it took hours to walk through this giant park and there were tens of thousands of people and skinheads and punk rockers and everyone and it was just complete mayhem and we didn't know we didn't there was no kind of schedule we just got to the to the edge of the stage and by the way the person I was with was Graham Smith the bass player in in Phasers on Stun who co-wrote Beating of the rain which is the song that's the the introduction the the intro theme to our new film like that one we just got to the side of the stage and and a guy comes a guy walks up on stage and he goes London City Rockers please welcome the clash and the whole place went bonkers and footage from that concert is in so many films it's in Westway to the world it's in Rude Boy it's in Londontown uh a couple of others I think it's in the in the futures unwritten the Joe Strummer documentary but I just keep seeing that film that footage comes up over and over again and every time I go I was at that concert I was right down at the front in front of Paul Simmons and I always look for myself in the crowd. That's weird Jeff because that Nirvana Phoenix footage pops up in other documentaries too and I keep having the same experience like there it is in the Foo Fighters movie there it is in I'm like it's I'm like it's just almost kind of creepy in a way it's like really guys it's like I I like it but it's so strange that it's just like you keep it is especially when you're not expecting it and I I watched this this feature film London town quite recently in which a a fictionalized clash and particularly Joe Strummer characters in in the film and so it's it's all it's it it's a it's a fiction it's a fictitious feature in which real characters make an appearance but then boom suddenly there's that Victoria Park footage again right right in the middle of a feature film rather than a document documentary. Wow yeah it's it's weird and also pleasant it take it takes you right back there.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:20

Well we're definitely gonna have to have you on again because there's so many stories to tell and we didn't even get to the fossil story you were talking about but we do have we do have one question left.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:31

Okay well I'll gladly come back and we'll do the other ones oh yeah there's definitely gonna be a Jeff Knockman part two okay it has to be by the way guys if you haven't figured it out by now this is one of the most interesting people you're gonna hear on this podcast or talk to in the world the guy's been everywhere and done so much. It's he's a fascinating guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:48

So and a good friend of ours what what's your favorite or one of your favorite moments on set with this yeah there are so many good ones to choose from okay so well then pick pick a hand okay okay so I'm gonna do I'm gonna do two I'm gonna do two short ones and a and a and a slightly longer one. So the dream sequence we're filming the dream sequence for Revenge of Zoe. Oh yeah and I found that location using satellite image images sitting in my office in Tucson and I'm going we've got to find a location it's got to look really bizarre out in the desert where there's going to be this really spooky dream sequence and there's that beautiful uh song by Christopher Norman that that plays over it uh which uh is a very ethereal uh piece and and really stands out in the soundtrack and I I I think goes so well with that so I I'd seen this this satellite image of this this strange uh mountain range outside of Tucson that looked looked like the backbone of a dinosaur and I I that I gotta go see what that is. So I just drove up there in my truck and wandered around and found this this very Spooky and steep looking mountain range, and you'd you'd never tell this from the way the way you guys filmed it so skillfully, but it's like 50 feet from a paved road. We didn't have any permits, we didn't have any kind of permission. We just took the whole crew up there, and we go, okay, just shoot quick here and studded with cactus trees and everything. And it's that moment when when when Billy is drinking water out of the rock. And I think I think you've just come up with that. I think you come, I can't remember if that was in the spot. I think you came up with it on the spot and said, Oh, we should have a bit where Billy drinks water out of a rock. And then and then Cliff goes, Okay, find the perfect, find a perfect rock. We need to be able to hide a bottle behind this rock. So we've got the whole crew running around on the side of the slope, a steep slope, with cactus with big spines in the summer, and there's probably scorpions and rattlesnakes, and everyone's running around looking for rocks, and then suddenly Cliff yells, he goes, Wait, he goes, wait, just stop a second. Everybody's looking for rocks, and we've got a goddamn geologist on the crew. Jeff, go find a suitable rock. Which I did, and that is the rock that was used. So that was that was a moment of great hilarity. And then also in Zoe, the the scene that well, one of my I love telling this, I love saying this. I was the stunt driver in Revenge of Zoe in a very tiny scene. We meet we realized so the the red car, the old red Toyota, the the venerable 1988 Toyota Corolla that is in Revenge of Zoe, that's Billy's car, was my car. And it's a transportation car, a set car. It was great. So we realized we didn't have the shot where Billy leaves California to drive to Tucson after he's eaten the bag of mushrooms and he's drinking vodka. And Billy had uh the actor Bradford Trojan, our great friend Bradford Trojan, had shaved off his beard and also wasn't available. So I went to a Halloween store and I bought this really stupid-looking kind of fake Hasidic beard for$1.99. It's so tacky, it's so badly made with just a string at the back. And then we went up to the to the Walmart parking lot, the film crew, the the camera, I think just camera. Um yeah, it was just the three of us, right? Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah, uh kind of at sunset, and I put that stupid beard on and just just pretended to be to be the great Billy Shaw. And and and I wanted him to look like he was highly intoxicated as he's as he's setting out on this. So I just drove the car up onto the curb and smashed it around and did all this crazy stuff in the Walmart parking lot, and uh I knocked off part of the exhaust pipe and the muffler. Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm pretty sure you can hear that. Yeah. Oh, does that come through in the soundtrack? Yeah, I heard it. Yeah, so when I but of course you can't tell because it was getting dark and you just vaguely see a guy in there with a beard. But whenever I see that scene, I go, that's me sitting in there with this most preposterous beard. Actually, even more preposterous than the beard that I would have to grow if I was gonna play OC Marsh in the Dinosaur Wars movie. So, what am I even worried about? So, so so those are the two funny ones, but but the the the winner, the overall winner, has to be the Skylab story. So I've heard many times in interviews somebody will go, Oh, I get inspiration from my dreams, you know, my work comes from my dreams. I go, God, that just sounds so lame. That's not even really work if it just comes to you in your dream. Well, I had a dream and and I then I went and painted it, and I go, it's just really lame until it happened to me, and then I didn't think it was lame at all. So I wake up one morning and I've had this very vivid dream where I'm in the set of of William Shaw and I'm playing my character, Adam, and Ed Gibson, the famous astronaut who was a member of the Skylab crew who spent 84 days in space, comes into the store with a copy of this comic book, Skylab Number One, which there is no Skylab comic book, but that I in the in my dream I saw the cover very vividly, and it was a very Jack Kirby-like cover with the spectacular metal and the reflecting on it and the bubbling radioactivity that Kirby would always put in his spacecapes. So I woke up and I go, Oh wow, that would be absolutely brilliant, because the real Ed Gibson is a friend of mine, and I I know him from my work in space flight, and he lives in Phoenix. So I don't think I even waited for the next production call. I think I emailed you guys and go, I had this crazy idea, I gotta talk to you about it. So we had a call, and I go, listen, I had this dream where we where Ed Gibson comes into the comic book store with this copy of the Skylab comic book, and and we buy it from him. And can we do that? And you guys just look at me like, God, you know, every time this guy calls us with an idea, it's more bizarre than the than the previous one. And you guys said, if you can make it happen, well, we'll write some dialogue for it. So so I called Ed and said, Ed, I've had this crazy idea. I want you to, I want you to, I want you to do a bit part in our movie as yourself. And you come into the comic book store with a copy of a fictitious comic book about your own mission. And then, of course, I called, and he said yes, and I called the mighty Carl Ottersberg, our our theatrical poster artist, and told him this idea. And I did a sketch of how I'd seen the comic book in my head, and of course, he did a blazing rendition, fantastic, beautiful, gorgeous Skylab cover. And and so it came to be in real life, and the real Ed Gibson, who held the du the world spaceflight duration record for something like over 20 years, I think, walks into our set that we built with a book with a box full of fake comic books that we made and and and does a scene. So that that's going that goes back to what we were talking about much earlier on about having this this this vision, this image in your head of a thing that could be. I mean, I saw the whole thing in my head actually in a dream, and then we made it happen. So that was that was my marvelous experience for me. And and again, I I want to thank you too for uh being so supportive of these are not everyday ideas.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:36

The weird thing is he's not the only astronaut in the film. I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:38

Well, and this is one of another one of the brilliant things about William Shaw. So, of course, as you know, in the in that in that montage in the Isle of Games scene, we invited a lot of our friends who are extras to be. I mean, sorry, our friends, uh, interesting friends, people that we like characters, to be extras in that scene. And and it it so happens that a lot of the people in that scene are astronomy and spaceflight people. So I asked my friend, Dr. Cyan Proctor, to be one of the extras. So she is uh a science teacher, PhD, television host, brilliant, brilliant character, and a great spaceflight advocate. So she came for filming in a full-on space.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:29

I was gonna say, yeah, yeah, full on kind of space suit. So it looks like a like a series 7, like one of the early flight suits. Yeah. No, it's it's real.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:39

Yeah, it's real. So you she's she's very noticeable in the film. So when you watch the film when it's released, and there there's the scene, and you'll see this lady with the space helmet and the bright spacesuit. The amazing thing is, shortly after we shot that, she got picked to go on the Inspiration 4 mission to space. She'd not been to space, she was a space advocate, but she became an astronaut afterwards, and we already thought we were so clever because we'd managed to get Ed Gibson to do a cameo. And then Cyan Proctor became an astronaut retrospectively in our film. So, as far as I know, it's the only feature film with two astronauts in it.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:18

Right. So sea kids' dreams do come true. Well said right into the screen. Wow, that is crazy. It's funny, uh, as one last little thing before we wrap up. Uh I had an idea that came out of a dream for the movie as well, which is unusual for me. It was one of those more like right before you wake up, so you're kind of like half-conscious. And then I immediately woke up and did a prototype of it where I was like, we can make our own fake covers with pre-existing pictures of like Rachel, and and and so what I did, I did this mock-up of her with the rose and like a fake frenzy title over it, and then that spread to, oh, we can make these covers, and then that one kind of morphed into the comic book diaries book cover.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:10

Oh, marvelous. I didn't know that. Yeah, so that was a dream moment for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:15

Yeah, weird dream moments have uh found their way into the film. That's bizarre.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:20

That new that that uh frenzy fever dream cover, did that come from that also?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:24

Yeah, that's all kind of that that same idea, but I woke, I got up and usually you sometimes you wake up and you think, well, I'll write this idea down later, and that's always dumb because you forget it. But in this instance, I got up and I immediately went to the computer and mocked it up and sent it to you guys. And then it kind of the ball rolled, and then it found its way into the finished product, which is just it's so crazy when that happens, when it's just this weird little spark, and then you get to see it come to its conclusion. In that same fake comic book store that Ed Gibson walks into.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:01

How about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:02

Yeah, just wild.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:04

It's some strange metaphysical commentary on creativity that we were not gonna fully understand, but but these things have happened multiple times to us, and and actually the the idea of of using the song Beating of the Rain, which is the the intro title song, that I that also was came to me in a dream. And I I I remember sitting up in bed and I just had this dream that we were all in the movies, we were all in a cinema, and we were watching the opening of Love Song of William Shaw, and it was this song by my old band, Beating of the Rain, that was originally written by by my my punk band Phasers on Stun in London in in the 1970s, but then my later band, The Big Picture, did a did a version of it. We actually recorded that at Lenny Kravitz's studio. Oh, really? In uh in the late 80s. And here's this is an interesting story. I'll come back. We were going into record one night, and Lenny was walking out, and he was carrying a little girl in his arms, and it was Zoe Kravitz, who's now the the famous actress, actor, female actor, uh star of the remake of High Fidelity, which I thought brilliant. So I met her when she was very tiny. But I I that was such a it was such a vivid dream. That and I remember the sound was really good in this in the cinema. I was going, gosh, this uh this song really does sound great as the opening title. What a good decision that was. And then I woke up and I sat up in bed and I go, Beating of the rain is the opening title for this for the film. I never would have thought of that. And then we we mocked it up and you guys liked it. So that was another one. Bizarre, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:48

Moment of clarity in your sleep. And I guess it makes sense because your brain is working all these things out, and we're thinking about the movie constantly, and then and you wake up, boom, there's that idea. So it's just it's just wild.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:02

And I really believe in going with those things when you can. Not not every, of course, not every idea you have in your dreams is gonna be a good one, but but but the ones that are uncannily relevant, it wasn't a case of I'm sure you've had this experience where you have dreams and you're listening to a song that doesn't exist, or you're watching a film that doesn't exist, it's something that your subconscious has created, and you can't do a whole lot with that. But in these instances, they were very tangible things that you and I used. We saw an image, had an idea, saw a comic book cover, and or had this idea of an existing song, and then it becomes reality. It's a very puzzling yet satisfying experience to be part of that.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:47

I like to think when those things happen, it's the universe saying, Yes, you're on the right track. Just keep going the way you're going. This is the clearest signal we're able to send you with the technology that we have.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:00

But keep doing what you're doing. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Follow those signs, people. Yep. Fellow filmmakers out there. Well, do you got anything you want to plug? That's what we usually throw that to people here at the last thing. Any projects you want people to do? Anything going on?

SPEAKER_03 1:41:19

Anything you want to plug or tell people about it?

SPEAKER_01 1:41:20

Oh, thank you. Well, I I just will encourage listeners to to look forward to the love song of William H. Shaw. This is this has been one of the the biggest, most time-consuming and challenging and brilliant creative projects I've ever worked on. So much for our 14-day shoot that turned into a two and a half year shoot because of COVID. But this is uh this would be my primary creative outlet at the moment, I would say. But uh thanks for asking. Of course, if if uh any of if your listeners want to connect with me, I'm very easy to find on social media. I'm Jeff Notkin, G-E-O-F-F-N-O-T-K-I-N on uh Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. And my company is Aero Light Meteorites. That's that's my other that's my other job. That's my day job.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:14

Oh, don't they make whiskey on the side? Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:19

They make a fine whiskey than I do.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:21

You'll see it in the Revenge of Zell. That was a case of us filming. We're actually filming, and we've got a bottle of whiskey on the table for Billy. Uh, we're we're filming at the Arolite office, and and one of you guys said, Ah, we need to cover up that label, quick! And I just reached onto a shelf and pulled an aerolite sticker up and put it over the whiskey label bottle, and boom. I didn't actually intend that to really be an exact bug for Aeroite, but that's the way it turned out.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:48

So, yeah, that's the that's the uh that's the same. I was gonna say that's the same scene where you created all the box labels too. Oh, or all the alcoholic box labels that show up in both movies, too.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:58

Well, that was and that was a favorite thing too, as well. We needed we needed boxes of uh we needed beer boxes, not not six packs, but the the big boxes that multiple six packs come in for the for the opening scene of Revenge of Zoe for the for the card game scene. And our our wonderful friends at Plaza Liquors in Tucson who have helped us with with Zoe and Love Song, provided kindly provided the boxes and allowed us to shoot in the in their back lot and uh coming out of the store. So the so the idea there was to was to create fake beer label, fake beer brands, and they're all inspired by cartoonists. So there's so there's a Jack Kirby, Real Ale, there's uh there's a Peany, P-I-N-I, yeah, yeah. Wendy Peeney, Richard and Wendy Peeney, creators of ElfQuest, who are longtime friends of mine, and there's uh there's a Neil Adams lager, I think Neil Adams, yeah. They're all comics.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:56

I remember you asking us for for for yeah, like do you guys have like a favorite, you know, thing? I think I said I think I said Neil Adams doing Neil Adams, or and there's a Kurtzman one as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:04

There's a Harvey Kurtzman, I think it was Kurtzman, Harvey Kurtzman Schnaps, if I remember correctly. We really had fun with that, and then we reused them. They made it they made a return appearance in the in the in the scene in Love Song.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:17

I've like seen an old friend again when you dragged on the stairs. Yeah, that's fantastic. Like, I remember those. I've seen those before. I'm glad we kept them.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:29

That's a good tip to you. Good tip for you filmmakers. If you make a prop that works really well, you might want to throw it in a shed in case you can use it in another film later. You never know. Just turn it upside down.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:42

I still have that black and white frenzy poster. And it survived two movies in a in a uh outline trim.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:52

Wow, because we cut the. You can see you can see Revenge of Zoe right up there next to Knight of the Comet. Yeah, that's the real poster there.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:58

I did notice that actually while we were talking, and and uh listeners won't know we're we've got a we've got a video connection for the three of us just to uh keep in touch while we're chatting. But yeah, I saw that very nice pairing of Revenge of Zoe and Knight of the Comet up there. Well done, Clint.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:17

Yeah, I think I'm kind of I'd like to I'd you know I like to humor myself and think they're kind of on the same level. We're gonna have to make that double feature happen one day. I'm no I'm no Tom Everhart, but yeah, I can see that. We'll make it happen. Well, Jeff, we appreciate you coming on um making this sort of like audio history of of the films and stuff. It's been it's been really fun talking to everybody. We don't get to talk to everybody enough. You know, Rachel and Biscuit, and Julie's gonna be on soon. Yeah, pregnant. We you know, this is just insane how people's lives are moving along. So it's we really appreciate you coming on. And first off, we we appreciate you just joining us and making films with us. Like it you've it's been a whole nother level of it. You know, Eric was a whole nother level, and you were that next other level. Oh, thank you. It's it's just been fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:07

Well, I I have so enjoyed the opportunity to be on the podcast, and and I as I've said many times to you and and uh other people in interviews and just friends, it's been one of the most satisfying creative experiences of my life working with you two. You're you're so creative and supportive and energetic and fun. You make filmmaking fun. You get you've given me the opportunity to do things that that I dreamed of doing and was never able to do. I mean, who gets to make a movie soundtrack with all their favorite bands? Talk about dreams coming true. It's almost unbelievable. And and to sit with you in the Orleans and watch the movie with all with all that wonderful music that was made by friends of ours. So it's been it's been a great journey, and we ain't done yet.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:50

Nope, nope, we've got plenty to go with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:52

Yep. Good stuff, and I do want to get back to that rock and roll movie one of these days.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:56

Oh, definitely. And like I said, um the the script is online. If you need access to it, if you want to start writing notes or whatever on it, just uh let me know. The whole script? Yeah, yeah. It's ready to go. Yeah, I'm not linking. Yeah, I can send you a link and you can just start clicking. You can start noting on it right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:10

Oh, yeah, I've only seen I think maybe the first 30 or 40 pages. Oh, well, shoot, I'll send that to you as soon as we get out of here. Fantastic. That should bring me a great deal of uh musical pleasure. I am quite certain to read this literary work by you two fine gentlemen. Filmmaking happening on the podcast. Yes, how about that?

SPEAKER_03 1:47:32

That's how you get done, folks.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:33

Jeez, I didn't know the script was finished. Yes, this is how we make Indie Films.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:37

Yeah, you do business while you're doing business. That's how it gets done around here. Multitasking.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:42

All right, gentlemen, it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time, interest, and support. And I look forward to our next adventure.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:48

Right on all the best to you, Jeff Nutkin. Be seeing you. Godspeed, sir.