Talking Figgy Pondo: Mixed Nuts and Mazes and Monsters with Dylan J. Schlender

 In this episode, Dylan J. Schlender (from Reels of Justice) joins the podcast. He brings along the movie Mixed Nuts. Marty and Clif give Dylan the movie Mazes and Monsters to watch. 

Clif and Marty return with special guest Dylan for a completely unhinged holiday double-feature: Mixed Nuts (1994) starring Steve Martin, and Mazes and Monsters (1982) starring a very young Tom Hanks.

The trio digs into why Mixed Nuts, with its massive ensemble cast, still feels chaotic and uneven, why the French original didn’t translate, and how the movie became one of the oddest entries in 90s holiday cinema. Then they turn to Mazes and Monsters, the infamous TV movie inspired by Dungeons & Dragons panic, filled with LARPing, melodrama and lots of spelunking.

#TalkingPondo #MoviePodcast #MixedNuts #MazesAndMonsters #TomHanks #SteveMartin #ChristmasMovies #HolidayMovies #FilmDiscussion #PodcastEpisode #MovieReview #ComedyPodcast #DungeonsAndDragons #FiggyEpisode #IndieFilmmakers #CultMovies #YouTubePodcast #FilmNerds #MovieTalk #CinemaDiscussion

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Let's talk about this.

SPEAKER_02 0:01

When was the first time Steve Martin disappointed you? Now, for me, when I was a kid and I loved the jerk. Dead Men Door Plastic. Well, for me, it was Pennies from Heaven. Because I was watching The Jerk so much, and I thought, oh, he made another movie, let's watch it. And I'm like, where's the funny guy? But I should have realized, but how could you realize this such a young kid? But when when you're much older and you re-watch his television specials from the 70s, that I thought was the funniest thing ever, and it's downright almost unwatchable now. The writing was on the wall that Steve Martin is as good as the material that is given to him sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Welcome to season three of Talking Pondo. Talking Pondo is a podcast where Cliff and Marty give each other a film to watch and talk about them in detail. Some episodes will include a special guest.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Booz and Buddies will not be seen this week, so we may bring you the true meaning of Christmas.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

Oh, I would strap in, folks. This is gonna be uh this is this is gonna be good. This is gonna be good. We got a we got a hot hot guest coming on the show here, and uh, we got a couple of frickin' I don't know. I I I don't know how we I would listen back to the episode. I listened back to the episode that our guest was on previously and realized that we all agreed to do this painfulness all at the same time. We all were like, yeah, this is this is gonna be great. It's gonna be a great episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Yeah, it's uh talking figgy pondo at long last.

SPEAKER_04 1:47

Figgy pondo, here we fucking go. So you actually what cracks me up about this too is I do listen to your guys' show, and the fact that you've brought this up like two more times, because I was thinking like, well, maybe they'll forget we don't have to do it, but you guys have brought it up like three times. I'm like, oh no, we're really gonna do this. No, this is definitely happening.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

So we're back again. It's me, Marty. We got Cliff, we got Dylan J. Schlender back with us, and it's Christmas time, people. And so, what better to pick than movies that have very little to do with Christmas? We have uh Mixed Nuts from 1994. Oh, everybody forgot about that movie, didn't you? And Mazes and Monsters from 1982, even though there's a scene where there's a calendar that says 1983 on the wall at one point in the movie. And well, you know, Tom Hanks, he's good in anything. We'll say that much.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

So that's true. He is good in anything, that's very true. So, and we also have a guest today. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Who's the guest, Marty? The return of Dylan Jay Schlender.

unknown 2:52

Schlender!

SPEAKER_03 2:52

Hello, everyone.

SPEAKER_04 2:53

Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Right on, good to have you back, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Uh and so this was your kind of crazy idea. Indeed, it was. Okay. We all smiled and said, Oh, yeah, that's fun. Yeah. And as I'm watching these movies, I'm thinking, especially Mixed Nuts, which I'll dive into. I have notes for days. Yeah, I bet. I was like, why is he having us watch this? I fucking understand. Uh-huh. And then it all came very clear to me at a certain point in the film. But, anyways, what should we start with today?

SPEAKER_04 3:32

Well, if we could just a smidge more set dressing, because I did not re listen to our dress. I did not re-listen to our old episode. But I don't know if my theory behind why we should watch Mixed Nuts is because I have this Steve Martin theory where every couple years you find a new Steve Martin movie that came out in the 90s. It's like, wait a minute, I've read Steve Martin's IMDb. I've seen every Steve Martin movie, haven't I? But every couple years a new one is on the IMDB page that came out in like '94. And it's like, how did I never see this? Like, I never saw this. And Mixed Nuts was an interesting one because I always wanted to rent it when I was a kid because it had Steve Martin on the cover with the Santa hat. And I'm like, well, Steve Martin and Chris is got to be hilarious, right? My parents wisely never let us rent it, and it just kind of fell off. And then it was just one of those movies, you know, when streaming became so ubiquitous. Uh there's a few movies. I think we all have movies like this where you recognize the art and you're like, ooh, that was one I always wanted to rent, but I never did, and now I can watch for free on streaming. And the movies that have that dubious distinction for me are uh Mixed Nuts and Fire in the Sky, the uh the only movie with the Yeah, I know, right? But that was one of that was another one where the cover just always looks so cool, and I always wanted to watch it. Yeah, so that's how we got on uh Mixed Nuts. I have no idea why mazes and monsters. I think it's because I'm the only person on the internet who talks about it this much, and I figured I could rope you guys into it because uh we probably can't do it on Reels of Justice. That's just a go straight to jail, do not collect$200.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

That would never happen on Ryan's watch. Never.

SPEAKER_04 5:09

That's true. That's true. We've got a full defense, though. I would like to defend it one day, maybe. I probably won't defend it a lot on this show.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

I mean, fucking I mean, prosecuting it's like shooting fucking fish in a barrel. That's that I mean that's that's the e you get the easy job.

SPEAKER_04 5:23

That is the easy job.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

That's true. Defending it. Defending it though, I mean, if depending on the tact you took, you might even be able to pull it off because I mean it's mixed nuts, it's not it's not terribly made. It's just it's it's a it's no, it isn't. It's it's competently made, it's poorly written, and it's and it's the jokes are awful, god awful, but it makes sense. It's competently shot, and it sounds good. It does make sense, is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 5:52

It's competently shot. I mean, it's all damning with faint praise.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

It is too, it is too. It's in focus.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

I don't know if you know this, but Marty actually makes movies, so I'm gonna trust his opinion on that.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

Uh oh, right, right, right, right, right. But I'll say this it reminds me, and I've said I've brought this up before on the show, during the 80s, Hollywood and writers in particular, and and Hollywood uh producing teams in particular had a very, very fucking hard time getting a group of funny people together and making a funny movie. One that was really funny and really worked. If you think of Stir Crazy, right? It's almost lightning in a bottle, 48 hours almost lightning in a bottle, because there are very few other examples, but I can point to so many other bad examples. You know, there's very few other good ones, but I can point to example after example of just bad fucking comedies. Uh, we've had a couple on this show, like Running Scared, you know, um oh god. I mean, they're all over the place. Um, 1941, uh You Defended Neighbors on Reels of Justice, you know, you get these great comedians together and then you fucking waste the opportunity with just a terrible script, you know, that just doesn't work and is in is just like holy shit. Anyway, I guess we're doing this mixed nuts first, yeah?

SPEAKER_04 7:20

All right, I think that's about it. Let's do it because that's the Christmas one. Merry Christmas, everyone. It is the Christmas episode.

SPEAKER_03 7:25

Remember TriStar Marty? Remember when TriStar used to be in quality?

SPEAKER_04 7:28

Remember Figgy Pondo, you gotta say the whole thing. Talking figgy pondo.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

I remember actually renting this movie and thinking just like your favorite, Cisco Niebert's review was saying, Oh, this is just kind of mediocre. We expected so much more from it, but it was just kind of there. And then you watch it again 31 years later. What is mixed nuts? I'm still asked trying to figure out that question. I got four pages of notes here.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

Mixed Nuts 1994, PG 13, an hour and 37 minutes. Here's your log line. The events focus around a crisis hotline business on one crazy night during the Christmas holidays. This is directed by uh Nora Efron, written with her, I believe her sister Delia. Um, stars Steve Martin, Madeline Kahn, Robert Klein, and my God, so many others. It's ridiculous. Um let's see. Storyline. Philip runs a crisis hotline with Catherine and Mrs. Munchnick. That's the easy part. Now it gets tricky. Stanley loves evicting people and he evicts Philip. Phillips loves helping people and he is loved by Catherine. Catherine is loved by Louie, who loves writing songs. Chris loves dancing to songs and loves to wear large dresses. Gracie also loves to wear large dresses because she's pregnant. She loves the baby's father, Felix, who loves to paint. But that just leaves Mrs. Munchnick, who hasn't been loved by anybody in a very long time. That's it. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

It's so hard to figure out where to begin, so I guess I'll just start at the top of my notes here. All right. This is Leave Schreiber's first film. First theatrical film, yes. Yeah, and and we we talked about him last time with Big Knight, so that's kind of funny that he's back again. Yes, excellent connection. Also, his other Scream co-star, even though yeah, he they don't have any scenes together. Parker Posey is briefly in this movie with Jon Stewart as the people on the bicycles who keep trying to catch that.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

Roller skates. I literally was watching the credits and I was like, holy shit, Parker Posey and Jon Stewart.

SPEAKER_04 9:34

Yeah, you can't tell it's them because they're wearing like sunglasses and helmets and stuff. I mean, not that you would know who they were then, anyway, right? That's true. So that's pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Okay, Rita Wilson. Tom Hanks. Yes. Was this on purpose?

SPEAKER_04 9:51

No, I I just who knows.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

This is pretty bizarre, right? That we had, you know, one in one movie and one in the other. Yeah. Okay. So you start the film and you go, uh-oh. Steve Martin has color in his hair. This is never a good sign.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

That's exactly what I thought, though. That's not even a joke. As soon as I saw that, I was like, no.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Now, of course, a broken clock is right twice a day. You know, he has black hair in Little Shop of Horrors, and that one's good. But most of the time, when you see Steve Martin and his hair does not look like the regular Steve Martin, you know this is going to be weird. And for some reason, he has light brown hair in this film, and it's just it's so goddamn distracting.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

It is, it's so unnecessary, too. That's what's so crazy about it.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Oh man. It's one of those first things you notice that things are a little off about this film. I mean, how many movies is Juliet Lewis in where she's pregnant? Like a half dozen? Yeah. She's in the mistle looking.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

The other one I was thinking of with her where she's pregnant is the um the fucking the guns movie with a way of the gun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

So let me get into the heart of this here. Uh this movie had serious, serious production problems. Okay, it was made right before a strike. So you know how the quality of things made before strikes usually are. It's like, let's do a rush job, let's hurry up and get everybody together and make something real quick. And so what we end up with is not only bad camera work, bad ADR, bad music. Oh my god, when they go to the veterinarian's office and the score starts barking and meowing and the music. Holy shit. Oh, I couldn't believe it. Uh, what else? Uh and it's the tone is important. You know, it's as totally confused as nothing but trouble. But it's kind of worse because it's such a rush job where everybody has this look on their face like I'm re I'm maybe I'm rethinking my decision to have made this film, but it's too late now, and we just have to kind of get through it.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

Which uh which um which film in Nora Efron's canon is this? Is this her first director, directorial? It might, it might be.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

That's right. Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

She did okay, this is my life, was her first one, then sleepless and then mixed nuts. Well, okay.

SPEAKER_04 12:37

So this was like her fashion movie too, because sleepless was so big.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

So this is it looks like she mainly does really well with like romance type stuff because the my she did this in Michael right after Michael was the angel movie? Yeah, the angel movie. Oof, yeah, oof indeed. Oh, you're not kidding. That's like 80 grit sandpaper rough. That's uh that's fucking rough.

SPEAKER_04 13:00

Ben and Minnesota. I'm putting that on the Real Suggestion Justice suggestion list, though. We have a running list, so that that that deserves a day of court.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

There was a show called Duster that just came on HBO a few months ago as of as of this recording. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was shot right before the most recent strike a few years ago. They came down here to Tucson, shot the pilot episode, and then uh sat on it for about three years. When everything uh started up again with the production of that show, they scrapped the entire pilot and reshot the whole thing in New Mexico, and then the whole show was promptly canceled. Because it's it's a rush job just to be a tax write-off, is what the cynical part of me says. And so thinking back on this movie when I started doing the research into it and realizing, oh, they were just hurry up and get it done. But the weird thing is it's based on a French film. And so whenever they whoever bought the movie and brought it over here, I don't think they ever intended it for it to end up like this. I think somebody thought that that material was probably good and there was something worthwhile of making in there. And this nobody foresaw mixed nuts coming. But anyways, Cliff, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

If you're if you are uh I mean, look, unions signal way in advance that strikes are coming. You know, it's not like a strike is a surprise, right? So you end up you they did hurry up and shoot this real quick. So you end up, that's what happens is you're like, I need to, I need to shoot the I have the money. I may not have the money after the strike, so I'm gonna shoot my fucking film, right? And I'm gonna go, we'll go, you know, speed up the timeline and all that type of shit. And I I definitely feel like this fucking thing really suffered from that. Um and I also think it suffered from being a remake of a French film. This is why I don't like the French, because they're not funny and and their shit's not funny, and they keep trying to infect us with it. It's it's god awful.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Well, I think what the real problem here is it's dark comedy plus slapstick, and unless I'm watching like Evil Dead 2 or something, the shit doesn't really mesh that well. What'd you call that dark slap? Yeah, it's just like what is going on? We're we're killing Gary Shanling and nobody cares. Just free because he is Mr. Tannenbaum after all, and that's how we're gonna dispose of the body. It's at that point where you go, wait a minute, I'm glad I didn't turn this off because this is getting really fucking weird.

SPEAKER_04 15:26

That was what getting back to like how it felt rushed too, it seemed like, and you would think this would be a good thing, but like everyone was at the same energy level, like they were all kind of frantic. Like there was there was no like balancing act, like everyone's like going up, like cranking it up for every scene, and it's like that's what they used every time. It's it seems like if there were just like a handful of different scenes that they could have slowed down and maybe done a couple different takes with, they probably could have gotten something better. Yeah, but now that you're mentioning that material, maybe there's yeah, maybe, but it just but now knowing about the strike and stuff, it makes sense. It does feel like okay, we got it, move on to the next thing, move on to the next thing. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

Yeah, it's instead of it instead of per kind of perfecting it and running through it a few times or maybe tweaking it a bit, it's like, all right, that's good enough, move on. And you know, it's got it's it's got two things about comedies in general, which I think yeah, they're sort of like crutches when the when the stuff's not working, is they you end up just cranking the the energy of it up, right, until it spirals. It gets more and more and more frenetic until it spirals and then falls apart, but it never really timing-wise clicks or is funny in that way. I think there's a lot of comedies out there that do that, and you just go, Jesus, you know, I mean you're you're doing a whole lot not to not get anything back, and yeah, uh, that's what this does. I will say there's some there are some funny parts like Stephen Wright calling and telling he's gonna kill himself and haranguing, you know, and fucking then pow, and then he's well that you know, and then he's like, Oh, if a person's really upset, they always call back and they just sit there and stare at the phone for like a minute. That's a good that was fucking funny. I was I laughed my ass off at that shit.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

That was setting the tone early that it's dark, but then you kind of forget that it's supposed to be dark. So when it becomes dark again, you're kind of shocked. But then if you think about it, oh yeah, the Stephen Wright joke.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Most of my favorite stuff is with Liv Shriver. Um, I it's his it's his uh first film, this one. So uh it's his it's his film debut, and I think he's fucking hysterical. I especially love the dance number where he and Steve Martin end up dancing, and they've got that whole sequence. I just thought it was really, really funny.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

Yeah, it's like so you would dance with me? Uh yeah, sure. Yeah, because the uh Steve Barr is trying to prove he's actually is good with people too.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

His whole family calling him Arnold before he runs out of the apartment and fucking Arnold, Arnold. Like, why the fuck are they calling him Arnold? But whatever, it's funny. They're deck naming him.

SPEAKER_04 17:49

Yeah, well, no, no, no, no, they're saying he's Arnold Schwarzenegger because Lee Lee Shriver is like six three. Yeah, no, Lee Shriver's a big dude. Yeah, he's big, yeah. He's almost as big as me, you know. So he's he isn't he is no one that to tangle with, you know. But you could tango with him, and then that's pretty interesting too that he like kind of gets that relationship with like that young Adam Sandler. Can you believe Adam Sandler said this? Like that blew my mind. Oh right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

Yep. Everybody's in this fucking movie.

SPEAKER_04 18:17

Oh, Adam Sandler. It's absurd.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

It's that, but it's that early Adam Sandler, it's that Adam Sand, it's that Billy Madison Adam Sandler before he had kind of figured the instrument completely out, you know, the comedy instrument out. Like do we do he's doing that type of shit, you know. And and he but he moved from Happy Gilmore on, he kind of moved a bit away from that and got into something a little more character-driven, right?

SPEAKER_04 18:39

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, but this one is just almost like distilled early Sandler. It's it's it is very jarring to watch.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Yeah, rarely have I seen such talent in front of and behind the camera with virtually nothing to show for it. Yeah, it's completely wasted.

SPEAKER_05 18:57

It's it's such a fucking shame. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

It's like a super group that could never have a hit song. Yes, there's a lot of talent, but they just could never gel together.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

That's exactly it. That's exactly it.

SPEAKER_04 19:08

Yeah, Rob Reiner doesn't even get a lot of funny stuff to say as the vet. You think that would be very fertile territory, but it's really just a setup that he's gonna deliver the baby at the end. You know what I mean? It's just like that's the other thing, too. Like the movie doesn't really do much to surprise you. Like everything's pretty telegraphic.

SPEAKER_03 19:22

Oh, yeah, it's yeah, it's everything's coming. Yeah, you could see that shit coming from a mile away.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

It's like yeah, except for Juliet Lewis killing Gary Shanling. I didn't expect that. Okay, yeah, no, that's true. That does not have one.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah, that's the one surprise.

SPEAKER_04 19:36

They sit on it for like 20 minutes, like the movie's still going, and then it comes back. It's like, oh yeah, Gary Sandling's bond is do something about that.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

Yeah, it's like just like oh man, and what a great dodge, too. It's like, oh, he was the strangler, so you're fine, you know. It's like, oh, okay, sure.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

I feel like this is uh one of the precursors to the modern day gross-out comedies like your Pineapple Express or My Boss's Daughter, where people are getting injured and they're bleeding and it's supposed to be funny.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

It reminds me more of that mad mad world type of thing. Like it reminds me more of that, like again, a huge ensemble kind of frenetic, you know, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 20:20

Um it just never takes the time to breathe, though. You know what I mean? It's it's the the whole movie's just like a solid permanent marker line just going right over your face. You know, it's like it's just like it just has no breaks or anything. And it's funny that it is only an hour 35 because it seems it actually like kind of feels longer. Yeah. And I I don't necessarily mean that in a pejorative way, it's just that like not feels 145.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 20:48

You know, it definitely feels like it's it's running on and like they ran out of stuff. And it's like, man, especially when channeling gets shot.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

Yeah, like once channeling gets shot, you're like, oh man, we still got some time here. What the fuck?

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Yeah, exactly. It's like, man, like they're just out of ideas.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

It has some of the most passionless kissing I've ever seen in a film. The people are like almost like rolling their heads off to the side to the cheek, and and then the bathroom floor make out where you know how dirty that floor is. It's just disgusting. So it's like we got even as if the movie wasn't like as weird enough, you have that.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

Yeah. We would know about dirty bathroom floors in films for sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Uh, you know, uh let's talk about this. When was the first time Steve Martin disappointed you? Now, for me, when I was a kid and I loved the jerk, Dead Men Don't World Plan. Well, for me it was Pennies from Heaven because I was watching the jerk so much, and I thought, oh, he made another movie, let's watch it. And I'm like, where's the funny guy? But I should have realized, but how could you realize as such a young kid? But when when you're much older and you rewatch this television, Television specials from the 70s that I thought was the funniest thing ever, and it's downright almost unwatchable now. The writing was on the wall that Steve Martin is as good as the material that is given to him sometimes. But you say Dead Men don't wear plaid? Yeah. Yeah, Deadman does. I'd rather be watching either of those films than this one.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

Oh god, no. I'd rather watch Mix Nuts. I mean, I think they're all painful, but I think Mix Nuts.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Smoother.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

So it's now I'm gonna talk a little bit about some of the positives about this movie. I mean, it does have a Dr. John song in the end credits, which ties back into the last waltz. It was a Mo Henry movie, The Negative Cutter. But let's see here. What is my main note? Oh. Intentional fallacy. When you re-watch this movie 31 years after the fact, it changes in a way. Because when I watched it back in the 90s, it was just like, oh, I was expecting it to be something better, didn't pay much attention to it, and forgot about it. Revisiting it, I realize now that this movie completely represents holiday depression in a nutshell. Due to its rush job and uncaring nature, this make it might be the greatest Christmas film of all time. I love to watch a great depressive movie on Christmas. And a lot of people do too. I think that's why It's a Wonderful Life is so popular. But Mix Nuts is just to its core of the celluloid, the long, drawn-out, not caring nature. It's kind of how you feel sometimes on a really bad holiday. So the movie might either drive you completely over the edge if you watch it on Christmas, or it might completely negate the depression just perfectly. Because you're looking at it and going, that's how I fucking feel right now. I'm stuck in the elevator. I can't get away from these people.

SPEAKER_04 24:00

What I'm hearing is we gotta get Marty a date for Christmas.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

Or is it just passive Christmas filler, the type of movie that plays to an audience of no one in the kitchen as people wander in and out and look at the TV passively and a few years later talk to each other and say, was weren't we watching some Christmas movie with Adam Sandler playing a ukulele? What was that? What was that movie? Eight Crazy Nights.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

You know, it is interesting to like uh because I suppose in theory you could have made this movie not around Christmas and it would land just as well. I think putting the patina of Christmas on it lets you get away with a few more jokes get away with a few more to it.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

It really does. It's not sappy like a lot of Christmas movies. I appreciated that. It's just look, sometimes this sucks. And it's like, yeah, sometimes it does suck. Not always out in the end.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

I was gonna say it has it as a little sap. It does all work kind of well in the end.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Um still better than Christmas with the cranks, though. That one's still the bottom of the heap. Yo, that one I know.

SPEAKER_04 25:04

So, but one of the things I look for in Christmas movies, too, is like someone kind of has to have that like Scrooge moment, that like redemptive moment, like that Grinch moment, you know, where like they like the holiday spirit literally has to infuse into them, yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Yeah, you know, when Tom becomes happy.

SPEAKER_04 25:24

Yeah, well, I mean, I guess like to a point the holiday spirit now. I mean, it doesn't have to be a lot, but you know, like something like that. Yeah, something like that would have been interesting to see, but like that's the thing. Like all the characters are pretty much the same as they were at the start of the movie at the end. And I, you know, you can argue maybe that's the point where people don't change and stuff like that, you know. But like it doesn't necessarily make for a compelling.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

I guess if you're running a suicide prevention hotline, yeah, you want everybody to kind of remain the same.

SPEAKER_04 25:52

Well, that's true. They're not dead, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 25:55

So I don't know if if it'll ever be Christmas for me again until I see Juliet Lewis fall down and give birth in the snow. You know, I this might be a tradition for me.

SPEAKER_04 26:05

That's gonna be the new Christmas moment. As soon as the turkey's done cooking, you pop on mixed nuts and he's in the back.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

And if you blink, you'll miss Haley Joel Osmet in his film debut as well. Yep, he's the little kid at one point. Talk about a person who didn't change. You recognize that head.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

Dude, I know it's amazing that his face has stayed exactly the same. I mean, good for him, though. I mean, you know, it was kind of funny. Like when he grew up, it's like, well, he's not cute anymore. Is he still gonna act? And he still gets some roles, so good for him. He's a pretty good actor, too. Yeah, I got nothing against him. I think he's pretty cool. I bet he'd like hanging out with us.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

Sure. It was just like, wow, I can't believe it. Is that him? And then you see the credits, and it's like, yeah, it is. The minute I saw enough about this, I'll let you all babble about it now.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

The minute I saw um the minute I saw Madeline Kahn get stuck in the elevator, I I remembered like the whole movie came flooding back to me. I was like, oh, that's right. She gets stuck in the fucking elevator, and then the oh, that's right. Like it all I don't know why it but it was just like the whole memory, just it was like unlock, boom. And uh I remember thinking, knitted pajamas. Who the fuck wants knitted pajamas? Like maybe in Alaska you want knitted pajamas, but that sounds like the most like sweat-inducing garment to wear to bed ever. Like in LA, you know?

SPEAKER_04 27:27

It's like well, they're in California. I don't know exactly. Knitted pajamas. Is that LA? I don't know. They're by a beach.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

I think it's it it feels like LA to me, maybe San Francisco.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

They shot it in New York to make it look like Los Angeles. This was part of the strike nonsense. Weird. I mean, they did a good job.

SPEAKER_04 27:45

It looked like California, you know.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

So one of my favorite lines is Madeline Kahn. Do go on, I believe you were discussing my cherry. That's one of my favorite lines.

SPEAKER_04 27:55

She's always good. She's always good. Madeline Kahn is great. Um actually, she was one of the more interesting characters, but they really they sideline her really hard at the end of the movie, you know.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

It's like Yeah, they hey, go off and have sex with this guy on the beach, and we'll talk to you in 25 minutes. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 28:10

Like, I think having her around for the Gary Sandlin cover-up probably would have been a better use of her abilities. But here we are.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Yeah, so decisions were not this movie strong point. So no, it really wasn't.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

And and you know, like like you said, just by mentioning like that kind of rush job trying to get it in under the wire for the strike, yeah, that's exactly what it feels like. Because if you think about it, like with the talent that was there and some of the young talent, it's kind of fun. It's always funny. It's like when we were talking about like Earth Girls Are Easy, you know, it's like Jim Carrey wasn't huge yet, you know, but it's funny watching it now and knowing how huge he would become. And it's kind of the same thing with like uh Adam Sandler and a couple of the other guys in there, you know. It's like like all these people, like some of them were established and some of them were just getting established, and a lot of them would have the momentum carrying their career through. And it's just like, man, yeah, you've got you got the talent here. We know what they're capable of or what they're going to be capable of, too. It's not like any of these people fell off the face of the earth. And this is what you got out of them. You know, and I think you can you can fairly point that to the writer and director and saying, like, yeah, you j you did not get a good performance out of these people. You know, it's like what people say about you know, like George Lucas, you know, he can gets bad performances out of good actors. Yeah, maybe we could say the same thing about uh uh what was her name? Nora? Nora, yeah. Nora Ephron?

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:30

All right, good. I almost said Zach Ephron, but he didn't direct. Now, one day he will direct a movie and we'll be on here talking about it. I'm not gonna give it the episode a preemptive title name because then you guys will force me to do it like a year later.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

So, okay. So let's go through this cast uh just real quick because I I think listeners you need to understand why why this is so disappointing. Uh yeah Steve Martin, why it works. Uh Steve Martin, Madeline Kahn, Robert Klein, Anthony Anthony La Paglia, Juliet Lewis, Robert Reiner, Adam Sandler, Liv Schreiber, Rita Wilson, Parker Posey, John Stewart, uh, let's see, Gary Chandling, Stephen Wright, um, Victor Garber, Haley Joel Osmond. Uh it's just it's it's unfucking believable.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Behind the camera, the cinematographer had been working since the 30s. Yeah, this is one of his last movies. And I'm like, well, maybe it was the editing that was bad. The editor cut Serpico. Everybody was just phoning this in. Huh.

SPEAKER_04 30:38

Hey, the the checks still clear. It's still clear. And back to what Cliff was saying about the cast, though, too. And some of those were really bit parts, too, not for nothing. You know what I mean? True, true. But like Rob Reiner could like had a pretty substantive, it was a a notch above a cameo, and he does not get to do much, which is very disappointing, you know. And then like Sandler really gets to kind of stretch his legs with his music, and yeah. We know he's uh capable of a little better, but for young Sandler, you know, it's like I don't think they were reaching particularly hard. I I agree with you. I think Lee Schreiber is pretty strong. He is.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

I thought he I thought he was really, really good in it for his first on camera. Like he really he dug into that part.

SPEAKER_04 31:19

Now, if Steve Martin was the only guy acting like Steve Martin, if everyone else in the movie wasn't kind of matching him, he would have been fine. But I think the problem was is like everybody was kind of being the same character. You know, they were if they were all frenetic and frustrated and having like these weird problems and stuff. And Steve Martin can do that because he's so physical. Like I just think about I I wish I could remember what movie it was. It might have been like Planes Trace in Automobiles where he's talking and he just grabs him and he just shakes it back and forth and then says the thing and then shakes it back and forth. You know, just the way he just the way he moves and emotes is so great. And having everyone trying to do that in this movie was exhausting.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Yeah, that's that's what again one of the I pointed out, one of that that dance routine with him and Schreiber is because at first it's a very he's very uncomfortable, and then suddenly as they're talking, he's like, Oh, well, you know, I'm I'm you know, I always hang out with the weird people and all that type of stuff. And then the next thing you know, they're he's dipping him and they're doing this tango number, and it's fucking hysterical. I thought it was really funny.

SPEAKER_04 32:20

Yeah, what one of one of the better parts of the movie for sure. Yeah, and that's the thing it's like the holidays. Yeah, I think Steve Martin, like he's because he is so funny, but he can also be a bit of a straight man if you let him. And they just yeah, they didn't they didn't really know what which way they wanted to go with him. And so sometimes he could be the straight man to himself, like uh all of me, like which is easily like his best movie, if we could take a moment to talk forget about what Steve Martin All of Me? Was Tomlin his best movie book? Yes, dude, that's so good. It's so funny. And his physicality in that movie is. I know Fliff does not like that film. He does not like all of them.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

I would happily prosecute the shit out of that film.

SPEAKER_04 33:04

No way.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

Okay, well then bring it on, Dylan Schubert.

SPEAKER_04 33:08

Hold on a minute though. Like, is this one of those movies I fondly remember, but everyone else hates? Like, what's the rotten tomatoes here?

SPEAKER_03 33:14

Oh, wait a minute before I get myself into a trouble.

SPEAKER_04 33:22

No, no, we're good. 85% from critics, 67 from the audience. Oh wow, so it's just me. No, no, 67 is colorable. So there's an argument somewhere in there. This isn't axiomatic. So all right, good. But that means you're taking the hard one now. So that's good. Very true. All right, good. We'll get a rematch. I can get revenge for eddying of the cruisers. So I'll be honest with you, like a lot of the movies we've done this year, I kind of forgot about, but edding of the cruisers is actually really stuck with me. Like the more I think about, the more I dig it. So yeah, so that's good.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

There's definitely something to it. It has that thing to it, you know.

SPEAKER_04 33:57

It's got it's like got that little sticky quality where it pops into my head and I don't hate it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

It's like yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's and it's and it could like we talked about, not a perfect movie by any stretch, but like but again, something about it. Yeah, no, it has that je ne sais quoi. Yeah. This one, this one I will probably end up this this this mix nuts, I will probably end up bringing up or re-watching at some point because just it's it's a it's it's funny in points, but it's also just a fucking train wreck, and it's kind of fun to it's kind of fun to watch the train wreck. Nobody's getting hurt, it's just uh it's a train wreck with nothing but just the train, you know.

SPEAKER_04 34:34

You know what I like about it from that point of view? Because you're right, I think I agree with you. I could see watching it again at some point, but it it's a train wreck that's not asking a lot from you as the viewer, too, which is nice. Yeah, because sometimes you get these really bad movies that are so didactic or something, and they've like, oh no, this is on you, you gotta pay attention. This one, like it almost doesn't care that people are watching.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Yeah, you know, it feels like it doesn't care at all.

SPEAKER_04 34:58

It feels like everything's gonna happen anyway, you know. Yeah, it's like watching.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Yeah, it's like watching like a like a children's play at an elementary school where it's like, look, I'm gonna go up, get up and go pee, grab a 25 cent soda and a bag of popcorn, I'll be back. And I won't have missed anything. Yes, exactly. And I'm really just worried about my daughter's part, anyways. So, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 35:17

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, so that's that's one of the the good things you can't say about this movie. It's like it like it doesn't ask a lot from you, and you probably won't regret watching it just because it's an interesting curio from the 90s, like seeing people in their early stuff. And I would say Steve Martin is one of those actors where it's worth it to be a Steve Martin completionist. Like I think all of his movies that he's like has a leading role in, I should say. Uh at least for me, like if Steve Martin's leading in something, I'm gonna watch it. You know what I mean? Like he recently wrote this movie about bird watching with uh Owen Wilson and Jack Black. Yeah, but uh called the Big Year. Yep, he was so good in that, you know, and like you know, like he's usually not the problem, which is another thing that makes mixed nuts notable is that he's kind of the problem because it's not really his fault, though. It's because they wanted everyone to be Steve Martin, and only Steve Martin could be Steve Martin. So it's yeah, it's a weird movie. It's one of those movies.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

It's like um Did you see State in Maine? No, I have not. So State in Maine is just like this different subject matter, but I mean the same setup. Bunch of fucking really great actors and actresses getting some really peppy dialogue, and it's just funny, funny throughout, but they somehow also are able to pull off an actual story that works. And and so by the end of the movie, you're much more of like a oh, that was actually pretty good. I kind of liked that. Whereas with this one, you're you come out at the end of it going, what the fuck? Oh, I guess okay. Steven.

SPEAKER_04 36:51

Yeah, and uh so it it's it is one of those movies, like it all works on paper, and then it's just the execution. It's just like it's just the execution, it's just not there. Nothing particularly quotable either, too, you know, like it's not like a funny line that you'll be saying or anything like this one. Well uh Nuprin. That's the good stuff.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

Yeah, it will just I you know it why not make an Anison joke while you're at it, like we'll fucking just completely date the movie.

SPEAKER_04 37:18

Drops of water on the hot skillet of your mind, as I like to say. Uh so is this the part where we give it our star rating?

SPEAKER_03 37:28

Uh one of well, yeah, I I wanted to say one other thing.

SPEAKER_04 37:31

I don't want to rush.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

No, no, I just wanted to say like much like you said, Dylan, it's a fun, silly, kind of harmless movie that honestly should be a hell of a lot funnier than it is. It's just it the the sum of its parts doesn't equal what the actual uh and end up movie ended up being. You know what I mean? Just anti-synergy so many quality. Yes, exactly. So many quality things in here. It's like, yeah, you used all titanium and you ended up with a fucking piece of shit. What's wrong with you? You know, how did you do that? How did you do that, Nora?

SPEAKER_04 38:05

Yeah, it seems like you would accidentally make a better movie with all this talent, you know? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

Of course, Stanley Tannenbaum, who by the way, I mean Tannenbaum in German means Christmas tree. It ends up being the Christmas tree, and then of course he's the seaside strangler, and of course there's a$250,000 reward, and of course, Merry Fucking Christmas. Let's get out of here. Two and a half stars. Oh, that's generous. I'm surprised you went that high. I I I begin it's you you watched mixed nuts not just for the movie, but for the lesson on how not to fuck the comedy up. And and three, to kind of kind of wallow in the train. It's like watching the room, kind of like wallow in the train wreck a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Oh, you're grunt reading my notes.

SPEAKER_04 38:57

Dylan, um I I am going to so I my star ratings don't really mean much because it's not something I use a lot, but I would say this is I I don't want to say it's unwatchable. So I think about like uh Leonard Malton's movie guide, right? Where bomb it wasn't even a star, and then it would be like half star. So I'm gonna give this one and a half stars because I think you should watch it, but if you go into it with the understanding that it's probably it will let you down, you know, like if you go into it cold and you just see like the cast and everything, like, oh man, this is gonna be great. And it's just not. It's like you said, I think, and that's really what drags it down is like the potential. I mean, this had the potential, everything about it had the potential for this to be like a four-star movie. You know, like the concept is solid, the cast is solid, everything's solid. And to come up this short, you know, so I think my one and a half stars mostly comes out of my respect for Steve Martin, because I'm just such a big Steve Martin fan, so I like I'll watch anything with him. And the fact that I could see a scenario where I watch this again, I can't give it like a half star or bomb or anything. So one and a half is where I'm coming in, and maybe a little extra Christmas cheer in there too.

SPEAKER_03 40:12

This is that this is that Steve Martin that was trying to get rid of the jerk. Like he was trying to shrug that off, and he wanted to move into parenthood and LA story and that type of stuff and do I thought he did he he said he became a serious actor when he did all of me.

SPEAKER_04 40:28

See, that's what we need to do on the show. I know Tons got all of me. It's gonna be great. I'm putting it on the notes.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

So mixed nuts would be an excellent case on reels. I I would love to hear both sides, but in a way, I feel like we kind of threw it all out there today.

SPEAKER_04 40:45

I I agree.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

When you see a movie from the past that you haven't heard of, and it's got an all-star cast, it's probably gonna be pretty bad. Yeah, it's probably gonna be pretty bad. Yeah.

unknown 40:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Yep. You know, if I were ever to teach a class in film school, you could do a whole lesson plan on this movie alone, on just what not to do, and how it all can just go ajar at any moment. You know, we talk about, you know, I mentioned nothing but trouble earlier, and we talk about the room and troll two as being these bad films that are just jaw-droppingly like how what happened, but I think people are sleeping on mixed nuts too much. I think it needs to re-enter the conversation of what the fuck movies from the past. It's so strange. It is so strange. I have this movie's been living rent-free in my head all week.

SPEAKER_04 41:40

Nice. I could see it did its job. But you know, to Marty's point, it has none of the excuses those other movies he mentioned did. True. Like they doesn't have the language.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

No, it had a$15 million fucking budget and so much fucking talent in this motherfucker. It wasn't even funny.

SPEAKER_04 42:01

It had no roadblocks. That's what's so fascinating about it. Like, there absolutely no except for maybe being rushed by the strike. So I'll give it a little bit of credit for that because that's new information to me. But yeah, like as weird as it is. Yeah, man. But no, you're absolutely right, Marty. This would be this should be in that conversation. Yeah. So, what does that give it for a star overview?

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Then I'm gonna say this is easily one of the worst mainstream films ever made. What? Because it has so many weird problems. But hear me out. It's because it has so many bizarre, weird problems to it, is why. So I give it kind of this mixed rating in a way. Now, my real rating is one half because I know it's bad. But as far as Christmas movies, as far as Christmas movies go, five stars.

SPEAKER_04 42:50

Oh, geez, Marty does not like Christmas. That's what I'm taking away from this. Talking Figgy Panda was at least a third your idea.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

Yeah, and so see, two and a half stars from Cliff, it hits right in the middle. You know, I laughingly have to say a half, of course, but no, you got you gotta watch this, people. It's not streaming anywhere, I don't think. Find it, watch it, and don't turn it off an hour in because you have to get to the part where they shoot Gary Shanley. Because you you're like, this is a Christmas movie. You know, we watch The Violent Night and all the violent Santa movies, and they're sappier than this thing. This movie's so cynical, I kind of love it. But I also know it's terrible. It's like say, like the room or troll two. I'm just like, I'm fascinated by it.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

Maybe that's maybe that's my maybe that's why I like Scrooge so much, Marty. I mean, maybe it's that same thing. Now you now you see why I like now you see why I feel about Scrooge.

SPEAKER_04 43:43

I hate Scrooge. Oh my god. We did that on Reels already, though. Yeah, we did that.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

See, I'm watching these movies before Christmas. I'm watching them out of context. I gotta watch these on Christmas Day to see if the holiday season needs. Negates the grossness of the film.

SPEAKER_04 44:02

See, now I'm glad I gave it one and a half stars because I can give Scrooge a half star. So like I gave myself room to work. So yeah. Because I would 100% take Mixed Nuts over Scrooge 10 times out of 10. Oh yeah. Oh, I'd take Scrooge over Mixed Nuts any day of the week. Well, good. You have it. I won't fight you for it. I will. Good.

unknown 44:22

Good.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

Watch them both in a row. Oh, yeah, it would be too much of an idea. You talk about your uh Wednesday Adams and the fucking place watching the Disney movies and that Adams family movie would be brainwashed. You're watching Scrooge and you're watching Mixed Nuts until you get it, until you understand it.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

Mixed nuts. Like you're crazy. They're nuts, they're all mixed together. Oh my god. But it's also I got my dad got killed by a truck of mixed nuts.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

So even the even the title's politically important. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a title. Oh my god. Yeah, I came up with that concept a few episodes back where I was like, if you you know, imagine that you're Wednesday and you're being forced into the Disney shed, you know, in Adam's Family Values, where they, you know, a camp, they force her into the Disney shed. She has to watch Disney all day until she smiles. And and I think what movie was it, Marty?

SPEAKER_02 45:18

It was uh It was Annie.

SPEAKER_03 45:20

It was Annie. No, no. What movie were we talking about, though? I can't remember which one it was.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Oh, you were like Scream Scream 3. Scream 3 or He Never Died.

SPEAKER_03 45:28

Yeah, or He Never Died. Yeah, and I was like, I'd I'd I'd watch He Never Died over and over. He's like, Well, you're fucking insane. What?

SPEAKER_02 45:34

I was like, I'll watch Scream because at least I'll get to see Jamie Kennedy's video every 90 minutes. Well, we do have some viewer mail. We don't usually do it in the middle, or we can do it after. No, let's do it now. Bring it up. Okay, cool. Break up here. Okay, this is an interesting one. They always are, but I think this one will fit to our guest a bit here. So a few weeks ago, we did an episode about Star Trek the Motion Picture. And James Hoy from Bravo for the B side, who's been a guest on the show, wrote in, and he had quite a bit to say about Star Trek the Motion Picture. Yes, he did. And so uh I think Dylan's a a Trek fan, right? Big time, absolutely. I want to hear it. What does he got? Yep, you have twisted the cap on nearly limitless limitless knowledge on this film. I love the episode, and I feel like blasting you with non-essential brain space wasting information. Hell yeah. So his biggest issue with Star Trek The Motion Picture was all of the failed attempts to reignite the series. As early as 73, they were working on Star Trek Phase 2, taking us on the further adventures of the Enterprise. Decker was supposed to be a support role, a trainee assigned to Kirk, more of a glorified yeoman rand. Decker was supposed to be the new Chekhov, a link to the younger audience. The entire cast was brought in to reprise the roles. Pre-production got to the point of table reads, and then shifts in Paramount leadership structure shuttered the TV series. Roddenberry was hot about it. He was always hot about studio business, and was always in the background pushing the agenda of a new series. When Star Wars hit, Paramount saw the error in their judgment and felt they could capitalize on sci-fi and cinema. Roddenberry, series pilot hot in hand, went to the heads and told them everything they needed to see the movie was in the pilot and first season outline. Deckard became a disposable character, Gene figured why make room for someone new if the entire cast will move forward with the film. The hope was that the movie would show enough interest by the fans to more easily sell the continued series. The movie was exactly as you said, 70s aesthetic, still entrenched in the 50s and 60s tried and true sci-fi format, but also trying to embrace the freedom from strict structure that Star Wars delivered. Since ILM was king of the new types of effects, Paramount had to scramble. You can see what happened by watching the film. It could have been better, but budget panic held things back. The big issue is that the director, Robert Wise, was an old school sci-fi. The day this Earth stood still and dramatic strain were his only real fool-on films. His style throughout the movie is testament to the old film styles. Long intros, self-indulgent sweeping slow sequences of transitions, five second minutes built up to break the monotony of a slow call drama. We got a real letter. It's almost done here. And Roddenberry was also adamant on keeping things cerebral. Star Wars, well, let's be honest, you didn't have to think of a single damn thing. Everything just happened. You enjoyed the ride and you went home. Roddenberry wanted people to think about and talk about Star Trek. All this compounds the shortcomings of the film and why it was a critical failure. But by the time we hit Wrath of Khan, things changed. Empire Strikes Back was relentless action. Star Trek in its old form would never survive in the movies if it didn't switch things up. RV, as a director, knew and worked closely with Nimore and Shatner, understood action and character relationships. Myself, Wrath of Khan is the first Star Trek movie. True one. And the first one was long-belabored pilot that somehow just held on and did not vanish from the public. So that's the big gist of his letter there. So it seems like he enjoys the movie, but maybe not as much as we did.

SPEAKER_03 49:18

I, you know, I I mean, I get why people kind of overlook the first one, uh, you know, or or pass by it very quickly. I think it has a lot of, you know, true Star Trek buried in it, and it's the kind of the launching point, right? I I kind of the you know, I said it with Star Wars and Empire, right? Like Star Trek is kind of the promise of what's coming, and then Wrath of Khan and these others are sort of the fulfillment of the promise. Um but I would also say that it's that shift of science fiction type. And he points it out in his letter where he says, you know, oh he oh, Roddenberry wants you to think, right? It's that Kubrick 2001 Arthur C. Clark type of hard science fiction. It's not hard. I mean, it's still Star Trek, so it's not super hard science fiction. But going that way, rather than fantasy the way Star Wars is.

SPEAKER_04 50:06

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 50:07

It's not fantasy, it's not fantasy adventure, science fiction, fantasy adventure, which is where Star Wars goes, and suddenly it's two very different types of science fiction, in my opinion. Both of them, in my opinion, still extremely valid. I love them both. But they're, I mean, it's like chocolate and vanilla, man. There's two very different flavors there.

SPEAKER_04 50:27

I think one of the things we've been seeing with Star Trek The Motion Picture is with the rise of the internet and everything, it's it's an over-correction because there was a reason it was called the motionless picture. It wasn't terrible, it wasn't terribly reviewed, mind you. It just wasn't as strongly reviewed as things like Star Wars or 2001 of Space Oz. It got very middling contemporary reviews. Uh, so I think what happened though is now you have this subset of the fandom that wants to come out making it, and they want to claim it as their own because no one else really has, and if they can prop it up, so they say, oh, actually the motion picture's the best one. It's actually the most Star Trek. And it's actually not the most Star Treky movie. I hate when Trekys say that. You know, it's like it's it's not really that Star Trek-y. It's really just ripping off 2001 of Space Aussie. Now, I do like it, don't get me wrong, but I think Wrath of Khan, even The Search for Spock, even Under uh especially Undiscovered Country, number six, you know, we'll skip over four and five for now.

SPEAKER_03 51:29

Oh, don't you dare skip over four.

SPEAKER_04 51:30

Well, I'm not skipping over just for the purposes of this conversation. Uh those uh I love it, don't get me wrong. But like those are very, very Star Treky and very, very much in the Roddenberry vein. And it's kind of interesting that you were able to get there by removing Roddenberry from the equation. Like, that's why Wrath of Khan works so well. If people are more interested in Star Trek thoughts, the episode of Reels of Justice we did with uh Scott Weitz, R.I.P. He has since passed. He was a great guy. Everyone would have you guys would have loved him. Uh that's ROJ 139, The People vs. Star Trek, The Motion Picture. We also do cover Wrath of Khan. We do Wrath of Khan versus Galaxy Quest with Jack Bennett. Ooh. I got to defend Wrath of Khan. And here's a little funny story for that, too. I actually emailed uh I engaged an email correspondence with uh the director Nicholas Mayer before the record to talk to him about it. I said, uh, hey, I'll be uh doing this like head to head. What do you think? And he goes, I think you're insane, you know. It's like he's like, that's he's like, but it sounds sounds fun. And I actually sent him uh the episode and he really enjoyed it. So there's a little yeah, so there's a little behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_03 52:38

Wow, that's that's really uh trivia there.

SPEAKER_04 52:40

Yeah, that's very cool. No, no, he he was very generous with his time, I guess, like as far as answering uh a couple random emails, you know, so it was really nice of him. But yeah, no, I love I love all Star Trek. I think uh your friend there from the uh the missive, he sent you he hit a lot of nails on the head, you know. And I but yeah, I think we have to be careful that we don't over-correct for the motion picture. It's not the best one.

SPEAKER_03 53:05

No, it's not terrible. No, no, you know, like but it's also, yeah, like you said, it's not terrible. It doesn't deserve the vitriol I think it's gotten over the years. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 53:12

It's better than a bad movie. It's just a small movie. Well, you know, you know what it is, too? It's so it's so it's the the meme of the uh odd numbers, right? And it's because they are the weaker ones, to be fair. And I think five is just really what solidified the meme because it's just so bad, right? So five, three, and one are they're weak, but they're not terrible. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 53:34

I think search for Spock is fine.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

I I love Search for Spock, actually.

SPEAKER_03 53:38

We did search for Spock on Reels of Justin for Lloyd as a fucking as a Klingon? Give me give me more.

SPEAKER_04 53:42

Jesus Christ. So we did search for Spock on Reals of Justice and we found it guilty. And so I actually brought it up for our subsequent appeals of justice. So if was I able to get that appealed, you'll have to tune in to find out.

SPEAKER_03 53:56

I love it. I love the I love the built-in. You were really just built in, just absolutely just hammering the ads for your show. I just didn't know.

SPEAKER_04 54:03

Hey man, you got if you if I don't flog myself, who will? All right. Well, moving right along to mazes and monsters after that. Hell yes. I've been waiting for a podcast to talk about this movie before I even knew what podcasts were.

SPEAKER_03 54:18

I'm uh I'm excited about this. Um boy, I hadn't seen this one. When's the last time you guys saw this one?

SPEAKER_04 54:25

So this was like so this is way back in like I was homesick from school kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. And it was like on TBS or like TNT or something, and it was literally just um because you know, back in the back in the day, well, not that we're that old, but you know, like when you're scrolling through the TV guy channel and you only have a few minutes before whatever it is is going to start, or you'll just miss too much of it, and you know, like nothing's on, and this one it scrolls up, it's like mazes and monsters, Tom Hanks. And I'm like, Tom Hanks, you like a monster movie? Oh, whatever. Yeah, let's do that. So I'm like, well, okay, this is probably like Price of Rights not on for another two hours, so boom, you know, and and I watched it and uh I was I guess we'll get we'll get into it. It stuck with me. So that was the last that was the very first time I watched it. It had to have been, God, like 2002 or something, you know, or 2001, maybe maybe even the late 90s, but definitely over 20 years ago for sure.

SPEAKER_03 55:30

I I did the math. It's been 41 for me. It's been 41 years since I saw this movie.

SPEAKER_05 55:35

I hadn't even been alive that long.

SPEAKER_03 55:38

84 was when I saw this. And uh I I it's I I watching it again, maybe it was like unlocking the door to 1984 because I'm watching this going, Jesus, I remember things about school days all of a sudden that I didn't remember. Um and you know, the first thing I want to start off with is fuck Rona Jaffe. Uh uh that her fucking stupid ass book and her shitty ass movie made my fucking life miserable. And because my grandparents wrote read the book and then saw the goddamn TV movie, and then were on my ass about playing DD. I mean, fucking to the point of like hiding my books, throwing my dice away, uh, you know, burning my character sheets, calling it the devil, all this my fucking religious shit. My grandparents were very religious. You know, my grandfather tried to tell me a story about some 13-year-old kid who was playing DD, and he one day he opened up his player's handbook and a dark cloud came out, and he heard the devil's name, and I'm just like, this is the fucking stupid. I'm nine, and this is fucking dumb. This is dumb. I could see that happening. This is dumb. Come on.

SPEAKER_02 56:54

So I'm not playing mazes and monsters, I'm playing DD.

SPEAKER_03 56:59

You found something popular and you sensationalized it, and you made yourself a fucking mint off of it. Go fuck yourself.

SPEAKER_02 57:06

Oh, yeah, she based it off of a story that was debunked.

SPEAKER_03 57:09

Yeah.

unknown 57:11

So anyway.

SPEAKER_03 57:12

That was my sorry, that was my opening bit.

SPEAKER_04 57:13

Please. No, that's it. That's good. That's good, though. Because I do because look, there is no one. So, you know, like a CrossFitter, a vegan, and a Dungeons and Dragons player went into a bar. How do you know? Because they all fucking told you. There is no one who likes talking more about being bullied than old school DD guys. Like they all they have war stories, and like you saddle up to them at the bar and like they'll show you their patch, they have the hat, they serve, you know, serve through the satanic panic. Oh, yeah, we're gonna go.

SPEAKER_03 57:45

So we have the card, we have cards, we have a whole club.

SPEAKER_04 57:47

Oh, yeah, you got the challenge the challenge dice, you know, you bring them out. No, I know. But what so what kills me about it, because I'm also a huge DD nerd and fan, as you uh know, uh, is the movie as opposed to the novel. The novel, from what I read, it does kind of lean into a bit more of the sensationalism. It has that open, so in the introduction to the book, there's an open letter from one of the students, and it's all fictionalized, of course. I mean, she's the book is fictionalized, obviously. It's sensationalized, but it's fictionalized. And it's about a guy, like one of the students goes, uh wrote an open letter, and he's like, Oh, I used to play and it cost I spent like a hundred dollars on it, and it took up all my time. You know, so like there's that element to it. But the actual movie itself, I don't think sensationalizes it as much as the knee. I don't want to call it a knee-jerk reaction. I don't want to be insensitive to your lived experience, but I just feel like the movie. Yeah, I don't feel the movie slams DD as much as if you were just to read some of the criticism.

SPEAKER_03 58:47

Yeah, no, it it was it was just an extra thing to kind of pile on, like with the you know, the Don Hughes specials and all the other type of. Yeah, exactly. I think it got caught in that maelstrom.

SPEAKER_04 58:56

Yeah, but if you watch the movie in a vacuum, I think they do a pretty good job of showing how mazes and monsters with the DD analog is its own thing, and it's just an interesting framing device for the dis Tom Hanks' character's descent into madness, yeah, and not the actual cause of it. Right. You know, and I think that's what makes it really work. So that's what I'm excited to talk about. But yeah, we do have to do a lot of throat clearing because the the zeitgeist that this came out in was very anti-dungeons and dreams, and like right at the cutting edge of it, too, because then the satanic panic stuff, that's later, too.

SPEAKER_03 59:32

So like it almost got like a second and so on, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:37

So, Cliff, what is this good old-fashioned like 50s style exploitation movie of the week? You got it. Mazes and Monsters, our first made-for-tv movie, I believe we've got.

SPEAKER_03 59:48

I doubt we'll I doubt we'll do a lot of made-for-tv movies, but this one's a good one. Okay, coming back. I've got a few. I'll get a few. Uh so Mazes and Monsters, uh TV movie 1982, rated PG, one hour 41 minutes. Uh here's your log line. When a group of friends decide to take their role-playing gaming to another level, one of their own's mental instability begins to take it too far for him. And this is directed by Stephen Hilliard Stern, written by Tom Lazarus, Ronald Jaffe, stars Tom Hanks, Wendy Cruise, and Dave Wasaki and Chris Matepe's. Uh let's see. Storyline. Despite their personality differences, Kate, JJ, Daniel, and Robbie are close college friends, bound together by their pleasure in playing a game called the Mazes and Monsters. In order to keep it interesting, they decide to take the game from the board into a real life setting. But soon the line between reality and fantasy becomes difficult to differentiate, and what started out as just a game soon becomes a nightmare.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:41

Actually, that one's pretty better than the mixed nuts one, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:44

I would agree with that completely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

So, um we're gonna go deep to the cave, and then we're gonna go back to the cave, and then we're gonna go to the cave again, and then we're gonna go away from the cave again, and then rock climbing, Joel, rock climbing. And it's worse than Lost Continent because it's in the dark and you can't see them climbing through the rocks. Yeah, I like the first half hour, but then you have to watch the rest of the movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:13

I like the first and the I like probably the strongest parts for me are the beginning and the end.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:18

Agree. A bit of a muddy middle because of the the the the established time jump, but then you catch up with the time jump in the middle of the movie. I don't I'm not a big fan of that. I don't even know what if you'd call that a technique or I'm not a big fan of that structure where like half-flash yeah, like just kind of start it where the story starts. I mean, because there's nothing to be gained from seeing that at the beginning. You know what I mean? And then the new information comes after they catch up to it. So there's new new information leading up to that reveal anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:51

Like, oh the movie wrapped itself. No.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:54

Yeah, yeah, pretty much, you know. So I I don't think I don't think that that was uh particularly uh particularly needed, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:01

So my question about that beginning was was that entire cab ride six months earlier? Because they don't say six months earlier until the cab pulls up at the end.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:12

Don't like it. I hate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:14

You sit in a cab for six months.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:16

So I got a little bit here. Okay, so so so one, okay, so we got the rich kid who is really smart and unhappy, and his mom ignores him. Check. Okay, two, we have the girl from The Broken Home, also smart, and her own girl, gonna be a writer, hasn't really lived yet and doesn't need a man to be happy. Check. Now, good-looking rich kid who is tired of his parents, push him into being an adult. He wants to be creative and make games, but he needs to get serious. He can make games as a hobby. Check. And finally Fair point, by the way. Yeah, and finally the kid whose parents hate each other, enough said, and he can't stand them, and his older brother ran away. Check. So you've already kind of formed your it's almost like DD. The movie forms its fucking party and then moves forward.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

It's the weirdest thing. I noticed it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:00

I'm like, this is the weirdest thing. This movie's kind of shitting on DD while kind of weirdly playing DD. It's very that's my point. I don't think the movie's shitting on DD as much as people say it is. It's it's basically what it's trying to say, though, is that if you try to play DD in real life and you got a fucking psychosis, you may go crazy. If you drive crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:22

If you go LARPing, you will go crazy. So LARPing will drive you crazy. This is true. No one should LARP. All right. LARPing is the vaping of nerd activity.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:33

Look at any look at any Rinfair, and you and he's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:36

Go to any Rin vessel. And actually, what's interesting too is that they did dive into LARPing, which is was still pretty new in the early 80s.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:43

I mean, I don't remember anybody. Look, I played DD from the time I was about I picked my first box setup when I was thinking eight and or nine, it really early, and and played, I mean, I Jesus, into my I quit probably five years ago, six years ago, something like that. But the point being, I don't remember LIPing until literally the late 90s, early 2000s.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:07

Like yeah, that's when I noticed it's very head as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:09

It's very and and it comes from what I remember, it comes from vampire, the role-playing game, because vampire masquerade, because the vampire masquerade has very little dice rolling, and it's almost all role-playing. So people basically say, Well, why don't we just play this live, like you know, and get away from that because and and it became well, let's go to the park and do it. Wait, we because it will we have 10 people instead of doing it at a house, and that next thing you know, you've got LARPing going, right? Well, and and then you've also got Renfare, which is you know, like kind of like LARPing, I guess, but it's not a game. And living theater, yeah, no, but there's all sorts of things. True. But I but I mean, from my perspective of being inside the game world and playing, I don't fucking remember anybody doing any kind of you know, foam foam sword, this type of shit, where they're all dressing up with lanterns and and costumes and stuff until way later. So yeah, yeah, it's a it's a pretty crazy jump that they're immediately like, let's go to the fucking caverns and fucking run around with our lanterns on, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:06

I was gonna kill myself in those caverns, but now you're the depressed one. I yeah, this is great.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:12

Yeah, they do kind of sweep that under the rug pretty quickly. Yeah. You know, it's like, you know, they were still your friends when you were there. Like nothing materially changed for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:24

Well, and it's my point is that just I don't is that just so that he's the red herring for for Tom Hanks' craziness? Where they're like, oh, yeah, absolutely. So it's a suicide kid that's gonna kill himself and get obsessed with the game, but it ends up being and he's the one that the newscaster's talking about at the beginning.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:42

I mean, that's probably what they were going for. But so anyway, I just want to push back a bit again, because I don't think it's dunking on DD per se. And here's why, because this exact story would work with any obsession Tom Hanks' character would have. You couldn't make a cohesive story around it. You can make it like if he got obsessed with like uh a fantasy novel. Or if he was playing a video game too much, like, or like probably not like gambling, right? You need a bit of that fantasy element to explain some of his psychosis and hallucination. You know what I mean? But I I don't think this is a one-to-one criticism of DD. I just think that was the most interesting way to portray his descent into madness. So I I'm sticking to that point.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:21

I think this movie is a cocaine allegory.

unknown 1:06:25

It could be.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:27

No, one of the things that always fascinated me about this movie and why I like talking about it so much is because you have a very interesting character uh in Tom Hanks's missing brother, who we never find through the movie, which I think is really interesting. He's the greatest. His name is Hall. And it's he's a very interesting static character, and it's very redolent, and I get made fun of a lot of when I say this, but I I mean it sincerely. Mason Monsters is basically a Tennessee Williams play, when you think about it. What? Absolutely. Hear me out. You have a you have a static character that's caused the main character to basically go crazy. Right? That's just like that uh oh crap, I just had the name for it and I lost it. It was called like The Rose of Something or other. It was a Tennessee Williams novel that had to deal with like her uh husband. Then you have like the Glass Menagerie, which has like the dead father as literally they're trying to rip that off, kind of. Yeah, well, no, it's not ripping off. I think it's a I think it's a valid structure that Tennessee Williams just happens to typify very well. So that was one of the things that always fascinated me about this is that Tom Hanks' character is dealing with so much trauma. He has got this PTSD from his brother running away, which obviously caused the relationship to deteriorate with his parents. I mean, this is kind of like ordinary people. And ordinary people would have been much stronger.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:46

I can definitely see the ordinary people reference for that.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:48

Ordinary people would have been much stronger if we didn't have the flashbacks to the brother and him on the boat. I think if they just kept the they talked about the older brother like they do in Mazes and Monsters. I I don't count his hallucinations where the guys at the end of the tunnel of the light saying he's the great Hall. You know, that that's just part of him being crazy. Hall is a is functionally a static character in this. You know, but I so I think what this movie's doing is a very, very interesting character study into Tom Hanks, and the fact that we get to see him decline so gradually, it's so sad in a way. And then, you know, for spoilers here, I'm sure they're at there, you know, for a May for TV movie that came out in '82, right? Uh at the end where he hasn't recovered and he has fully retreated into this dream world. And what what's the does his mom say? She said, It's not your fault. I don't blame you. You know, that's her saying it's not mazes and monsters' fault. You know, like this is he had unresolved trauma that we weren't able to deal with, you know, and I think that's what's so fascinating about this movie. And that's one of the reasons I like talking about it so much, because if you just read what people say online, like, oh, it's anti-D D propaganda, and it's like there's like a smidge of that, but there's so much more.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:02

Yes and no. Okay, so here's what I'll say. I think also what you have to you have to realize is this is also when when you talk about films, sometimes, like sometimes when the film itself is a part of culture or pop culture or of a moment that and that moment passes, then you really lose the reference of it, right? And like this movie was out when DD was starting to kind of sweep the country, kids were playing it, parents didn't understand what the hell it was. It had a lot of demons and vampire references and swords and talks about violence and all this shit. And here comes this movie, which is basically about this kid who plays it and goes insane. Now, I'm not saying the movie says he went insane because of DD, but the public that's what they got from it. That's what they took from it. And it was an exploitation movie. So it just again led to this compounded thing of all these specials about is DD demonic? You know, the great you know, again, you get the great satanic the satanic panic right after this, then you get the say that five times fast. You get the right, it's like uh freedom from strict structure from our ink from our mail earlier. Like, say that fast five times. Um, but you know, you get that, then you get rap music and the PMRC, and that freak out happens there. And so it's just it's a whole line of shit, right? So I I well while I wouldn't necessarily say that it's it's it's totally taking DD down. I think it's I think it's writing on the the the panic around D D at the time and using it to tell its story, and it's not and it's definitely not helping the overall message of DD at the time, which is that DD is not good for kids.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:40

Yeah, I mean it's tapping into what's popular, I get it.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:44

But you're right, it's not like totally just like fucking DD ruined this kid's life.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:47

Yeah, exactly. And I think that's what's important to take away. Because and a big reason is because we are past that moment, and I think that's what you know. I I'm always very iffy.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:58

I think what's the takeaway from it is that Rona Jaffe sucks. That's what I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:02

Well, so see, I just because obviously on on Reels of Justice, we have to look at movies from all sorts of different angles. And we always talk about like movies of their time, beyond their time, ahead of their time. Sure, sure. Things like that. And one of the things I always point out is the reason we call World War I World War I is because World War II happened. So I do think you can historically look at events that would come after to inform how you look at events that happened before. I think there's a that's valid. So I think looking at movies now, looking at uh stories that have to deal with like mental health and descent into madness, you know, I think this one actually is pretty good for considering the year it came out, right? Like for being an 82 movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:50

I will say I like I I I do like the way it handles his psychosis, I guess, is or his I would I guess you could say schizophrenia, basically.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:59

Um I think it's psychosis because he's hallucinating would technically be it. I'd have to look it up.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:04

It feels like he's switching between personalities, like he's he is the he is the the his character and then he is himself, especially while he's in New York. Like at one point, you know, he stabs that dude and then he runs away and he sees himself and realizes who he is, and then he runs to calls to go get help, but by the time he makes it uh trying to make it to where she told him to meet him, he's back into his back into his illusions or his character again. I don't know, I'm not a fucking psychiatrist, but it's definitely one of the two. But I I do like the way they handle it. I mean he it's not like he um like there's a trigger for it, right? Like there's not a they're not it's not like he sees something and then suddenly is somebody else, right? Like he's a good actor. A lot of these bad movies are, and that's true too. He's a really good actor.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:50

Um, Tom Hanks has not had nice things to say about this.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:55

But you know, she's ninth level, I'm ninth level, he's ninth level. How awesome is that? Everybody's fucking ninth level.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:01

Guys, I gotta study. I can't.

unknown 1:13:03

We do.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:06

I mean, I that's one of the things that does kind of crack me up too about like like DD. It's like, oh, I'm ninth level. It's like you can just make your character ninth level. It's like it's not really good. Well, you could do that. Like he jumps in, he jumps into the pit and dies. Yeah, they can wreck on that if they really wanted to, you know. It's like yeah, it's like the rules aren't that strict. Yeah, but as a DM, I would never allow that. Um, it would depend on the circumstances, you know. But like Yeah, I mean, look, there are people who take it very seriously.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:34

See, if they just finished that game, none of this would have happened, you see. They they abandoned the game in the middle and that messed up Tom Hanks' mind, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:42

No, I think Tom Hanks had all the other pressures and stuff going on in his life as well, and like the relationship in yeah, there's so like I said, like there's more than meets the eye to this movie, and that's that's really just if if there's if you could get one takeaway. So I your one listener who loves Star Trek there. If your one takeaway from this is that you need to watch this and make up your own mind and not just buy in for every movie to the knee-jerk criticism, you know what I mean? Like there there is some value in this movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:13

Buy in. 50 million Elvis fans are right. Okay, they're they're right.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:19

It is neat looking at this movie years later and it's away from all its original context. And so a new viewer would watch it now and they wouldn't see any propaganda. They just see a story of a person who was kind of on the edge and he kind of he kind of flipped out a little bit because you know, too much pressure and stuff. It's yeah, it's weird how it transgressed over the years from an exploitation piece to where people would see the commercial, probably wouldn't even watch the movie and go, see, you see what it's doing to kids, and not even watch the movie, of course. And now none of that really exists. And so it's just about Tom Hanks losing his mind. Yeah, and the fact that Holy Man, there's worse people you could believe you are for the rest of your life. That's pretty scary, actually.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:01

Yeah, actually, that's the other thing, too. Like, he does seem kind of at peace, you know, at the end, you know, like man, I just I do I just love the ending in that movie because it's like a bit of a bummer, but like kind of real at the same time, you know. I I like that. I thought he died. I didn't remember the movie right.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:18

I hate the narration, I hate the narration at the end, but yeah, but uh I do I do I do like the way that they wrapped it up. Um I thought that was a strong choice. It feels like someone explained to Rona how D D works, but never like sat her day down and played a game with her. Because it's it's very like it's it's sort of close to art role-playing, but it's not. I've never seen a role-playing game like that. You know, it's like they're painting their minis, but they're not really minis, they're like little paper figure things. So it's like somebody was like, Yeah, and you paint these little miniature things, and she's like, Okay, so we paint these little minis, it must be paper, right? It's yeah, it's I know it's different, but it's in, and of course, see they they changed it probably to stay away from any kind of uh copyright infringement and so on. But it's it's very weird to budget concerns, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:06

You can just cut a piece of cardboard and I wonder what Gary Gygax thought of this film. Yeah, but my question is my question is I bet you he did not even watch it. How the fuck are you gonna play by candlelight? This is a text-based game. You need a well-lit room. There's a lot of reading. I wouldn't be able to even see the paper in front of me.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:26

Again, you gotta make it look moody because that's how they play it, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:29

Yeah, it's because again, I I never actually played it. I just have heard people tell me about it. Uh that the I'll here's another thing I'll say. The the the goddamn soundtrack, I mean that that's the kind of stuff that makes me want to start like hurting myself again. It was awful. It was it was awful. It was so bad. Um, Gary Gyaks, by the way, was critical of the Maze and Monsters novel. He said it portrayed a negative stereotype of the community and misunderstandings about the game and the culture. So yeah. Um, so yeah, he didn't like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:07

I'm reading an interview he did with IGN as well. So IGN said, How do you feel about being vilified by Tom Hanks, a reference to the really bad, there's some editorializing there, 80s made for TV movie Maze and Monsters. Gary says, Well, I wish they could have gotten a slightly better actor if they were going to do that. Oof. But you know that horrible Rona Jaffe book was clearly done to be pop boiler, and this film was meant to be a pop boiler, and they both ended up going into obscurity in the long run. It didn't hurt. You know, there's no such thing as bad publicity, and kind of goes on in that vein.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:35

Yeah, nobody expected anybody to be watching this movie now. This movie is like a soul. Oh no, this was for television. Yeah, movies of the week, they weren't supposed to have a shelf life, but then you get Tom Hanks making one of his only slumming movies before he hit it big, and the movie just lives forever, forever. His other movie being He Knows You're Alone, I think. It's just like a slasher movie from Ace. And he's barely then he much like Tom Cruise, once he hit it big, there was no more losing it or mazes and monsters, you're doing splash and risky business.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:08

Yeah, yeah, then that's what happened with mazes and monsters, too. Like Tom Hanks got big, and they're like, Oh, hey, let's we we have this, we can just throw it as much as we want. Yeah, he didn't own this film. Good question. I don't know who well, film filmrise owns the distribution to the VHS copy that is putting around. Whenever you click it on streaming, someone gets a ding at FilmRise, they get up and they pop in the VHS, and that's actually what you're watching.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:34

Oh, it's it's a it's a 12th generation two-inch tape. This is fucking uh lost in the cave. So Tom helps his brother escape his god-awful parents, and his parents are god. I mean, his mom's a day drinker, for fuck's sake. And so he's helps his brother escape his god-awful parents, and he somehow feels guilty about that. Like, what he should be doing is planning his own escape, is what he should be doing. Like, well, but he kind of mentions that. He says that his brother said he was gonna come back for him. Well, and he never did, he never did. So his brother's a dick, and he should be that's what he should say. He's like, Man, my brother said he was gonna do that. He's an asshole, and then move on with his fucking life. Not going to be a good one.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:12

No, but see, that's like you're you're being too flippant, Cliff, which is something I thought I'd never say. No, because he does say he thought he he said that his brother was gonna come back for him. Obviously, he was young at the time, you know. When you're a kid, these things are confusing and difficult to process, and like he did have to eventually come to grips with that his brother was gone and he internalized that trauma and was never able to express it in a healthy manner, thus leading to his psychosis. There's that's what I'm saying. Like, this movie has layers. It's actually it's so much better than people will say. No, that's because of the acting, I think. Yes, no. So the story does come back.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:50

The structure is there, and his brother's like, You're a holy man now? And he's like, Yes, you know, and then Mazes and Monsters part two.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:59

Hey, they should do Mazes and Monsters too. The whole the Hall of Hall of Returns. It'd be like uh Eddie lives, you know. I'm telling you.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:06

What was his character's name? Aegean, or what was his what was his holy man character?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:12

Oh, the cleric name that he had? Uh that I have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:17

That name lives, you know, like Eddie Lives.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:19

Yeah. Yeah, that's hilarious. Um, does her rebuke of the double bed living together thing indicate that they that they're not doing it?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:31

Or they're no, they were doing it. Okay. And they were and then he became he chooses to reject that offering. Okay, gotcha. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I should hope they're doing it. She was taking a shower in a street. Right? Does that get more intimate than taking a shower? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:45

Well, the most frightening monsters of the one is exists in our own minds, Dylan. So oh, I knew that was coming.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:51

Yeah. Everybody, I think they had a very physical relationship that they just weren't going to take to the next level, and that was that and again, that's not her fault. That you know, but again, that was like another straw on the camel's back, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:11

I mean, the I mean they break up, the body's not even cold, and now she's dating the blonde in the same part group party. I mean, that's I mean, I've seen more more playgroups fall apart over stuff like that. I'll tell you. That's the most realistic part of the movie. You don't you don't date within the group, you don't date within the DD circle. That's just that's that's the surest way to just That sounds like good advice. Absolutely have your adventure fall apart.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:33

So everybody outside of the four game players in the movie, they're literal NPCs. As people show up, have one line of dialogue, and they go back to doing what they're doing. It's like, wow, a movie about role-playing game has literal non-player characters in it. That's pretty amazing. What was with the kid?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:53

Why did the kid have so many different hats, too? You know, it's like I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:56

I don't know, but he's he's the one that needed to call the fucking mixed nuts suicide hotline.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:01

Jesus Christ. See, both these movies have to with mental health.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:08

Which comes around the holidays.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:10

So exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:11

It's all comes to watch on Christmas. Because you watch it and you go, thank you, talking figgy pondo. Because I'm watching mazes and monsters on Christmas, and I'm not nearly as depressed as the people in this movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:23

That's right. No, not you at the fucking close. Tom Hanks. Dear Diary. I was LARPing last weekend in some caves. Saw a green monster and had to kill it. Now I don't want to have sex with my girlfriend. But I have to go to a Halloween party. I'm gonna go with my character. I don't care what people think.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:45

Talk like that. That was an episode of Big Bang Theory, right? Fighting the Gorn or something.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:54

Hey, you know what too? Everyone talks about like DD panic. Now let's look at the flip side of that coin over celebration with things like Big Bang Theory. Is that what you want? I say let's go back to being vilified.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:08

I mean, I I I did enjoy DD a lot more when people thought it was stupid and only a few people played. Um nobody we haven't even talked about the fact that the mayor of Amity is in this fucking movie and he's walking around saying saying shit like Maces and Monsters is a far-out game. He's asking if people are dopers. I mean, Jesus Christ, man. This movie is fucking awful.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:32

Hey, though, they were right. I mean, do we really like the prevalence of dope? All of our cities smell like skunk now. It's pretty terrible.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:40

Oh, it's fine. It's a lovely smell.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:42

Uh, they were they I think they were ahead of their time.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:45

But what he what he was right about is that kid did need some help, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:52

I mean, I the kids shouldn't have lied to the cops either. It's like you guys like you are not gonna get in trouble. You will get in trouble if Tom Hanks shows up dead, though.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:04

Oh, but he was the strangler. It's okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:06

Yeah, they give it a look. Good night, everybody. That was talky piggy pond and we won't top that. We won't top that.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:17

No, I mean she well, I mean, she she doesn't want to tell the cops because she's got to write a best fucking seller about this and sell a million fucking copies like her hero win a Jaffy.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:26

That's right. She likes that we're all gonna be famous at the end.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:33

Um, this was honestly a lot more fun to watch than the first time, only because of its kind of like novelty um and that type of thing. Overall, I do think it had a detrimental effect on g on gamers and and role-playing for a while. I think it was part of that sort of again, that that wave. I don't know that it I don't know how guilty it is of it, but I think it's it might have made more people play the game actually. Quite possible.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:59

Well, you know, that's what Gary Gygax said. He said he said he didn't think it thought it hurt, and there's no such thing as bad publicity. But to your point, though this book to you to your point though, Cliff, it's like how many grains of sand before you have a pile of sand, right? So this was just like another one. It's just part of that.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:16

One water in the in the in the wall of wave, right? One drop on the wall of the wave. So however, having said all that, and even with Tom Hanks in this movie, this is a bullshit movie. I don't like this movie. Uh I I did enjoy parts of it. I don't like Chris Make Peace. I never have um, I think he's he just I it's like not even in The Last Chase with uh six million dollar man. It's like people who don't think gingers have souls. I just something about that dude just I don't know. I don't I'm just like you know, I just can't do it. Um one star for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:52

One star, okay. Yeah, but it's a TV movie, so how can you even rate it, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:25:58

Yeah, oh yeah, I think you can rate it. It has its own. Well, hey, and when I when I saw it for the first time, too, I didn't realize it was a made-for-tv movie because uh when I was a kid, Tom Hanks is a movie star, right? Ergo, this is the real movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:10

The opening song and I was gonna say that montage sequence. Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:15

Oh no, it's obvious now that I'm older, but like when you're a kid and you're watching, it's like, oh, this is just a movie, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:20

I mean that soundtrack on vinyl.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:22

Oh, oh uh you know what's funny. I was like opening like the Google search thing to see if it could find that music. It couldn't. Like it did not know what those set was. It's like try again. I'm like, I don't think I will.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:38

No, I'm good. I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:41

Uh all right. I I'm gonna go, I'm gonna be controversial and brave and go ahead and give this two stars because I do think there's a lot more to it. I think it's aged a lot better than people would have expected. I really do. I think that I think there is more substance to this movie than a lot of people give it credit for, Cliff. But that's okay. I would I want everyone to see it and make up their own mind. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:04

That that opening song was written by a guy named Hagud Hardy. Nice. That's not his real name. And it was sung by a woman named Judy Lander. She also wrote the lyrics. Hagud Hardy also. For the record, he also wrote uh he worked on Anne of Green Gables. So there.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:25

So, Marty, you are you gonna split the baby here? I would really like to hear Jeremy Black either defend or prosecute this film. That would be amazing. That would be so great. Uh, this is the first for the show. Both movies I'm giving half.

unknown 1:27:48

Really?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:49

A half? You gotta watch this because it's it's a spectacle. It's a spectacle. There, like this, with my hand on my head for like two minutes after it was over and silence like I have to process this now. Yeah. Oh, that that that that that sticks with you though. So I give it a half, but it's it's it's both movies today are beyond ratings. They're they're they're like living living breathing entities that you must watch if you like film, or if you don't like film.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:26

Masons and monsters is like being like surprising a skunk. You're gonna get sprayed, and no matter how much you scrub, it's not coming off. It's just gonna it's gonna be there for a while, and eventually it's just gonna have to let it wear.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:44

That's the line to open the show with, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:28:48

No, I I no, it was I I mean I agree with you about Masons and Monsters sticking with you. That's just why I brought it up because like I said, I saw it on a random afternoon once, and it just it just stuck with me. And then I wanted to talk about it, and I can't believe Marty rated it lower than you, Cliff, for all the you crapped on from such a great height. Come on, Marty, bump it up to one star, damn it.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:13

Maybe on the end of the season review, I might, but just all that dark rock climbing in the middle really killed it for me, where it's just like the movie just stopped. It's like, oh man. No, that's fair. I need the Blu-ray, obviously. I need to see it.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:27

I know you know, you know what though, like your ratings for both films are very justified. Yeah. You gotta watch them this week, guys. They're they're very justifiable ratings for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:38

It was it, it is uh yeah. I would highly recommend that you put these two on as like a Christmas double feature and just dig it, dig in. You won't be disappointed. Get the cocoa and the cookies and dig in. This thing's gonna be it's gonna be quite an experience.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:54

Now, Maze of the Monster does ask a bit more from you than Mixed Nuts does. That's for sure. That's true. So that's true. They're not on that same set it and forget it kind of level. If you if you pay a little more attention to Maze's and Monsters, I think you'll get more out of it. Mixed Nuts, like you said, it's the whole you could get up, use the bathroom, come back, you're fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:11

I I would put mixed nuts on first just to let you just to get warmed up and then dig into Maces and Monsters, is what I wish.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:17

I like that. I like that. M and M M.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:19

M M M M. M and M M M and M M M M M.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:25

Next week. Your films are Holy Man with Eddie Murphy. Oh, geez. And my bodyguard with Chris McPhee. I feel like I dodged a bullet. That's not next week. Next week.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:38

Talking Figgy Pondo's not so bad, is it?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:42

Next week we go back into the slums with the right stuff, and The Empire Strikes Back.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:47

Woohoo!

SPEAKER_02 1:30:48

That's not really good.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:49

Well, Dylan, it was a pleasure to have you on, sir.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:53

Oh, well, thank you. That was a blast. If I saw if I knew we were actually going to do this, I would have suggested better movies.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:01

In a way, I'm glad you did because I revisiting Mixed Nuts, especially, is just that that lives rent-free in my head now. I just can't get a grasp on it. It's I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:14

I I think we should watch it again next year. And we don't necessarily don't necessarily have to do a show on it, but we'll just all ping each other and compare notes in a while when you're on.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:22

Well, I think we I think we definitely need to do another talking figgy, but we need to come up with two different movies. Maybe Ernest saves Christmas and sort of something or something else, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:31

Oh yeah, I I love Christmas movies. I love good and bad Christmas specials too.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:36

Like I've seen raw ones or weird ones, yeah. Just something strange.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:40

I'm gonna send you a link to this website, Cliff. It's called The Island of Misfit Christmas Specials, where this guy has a write-up of every single Christmas special and why it turned out to be a dud. It's it's amazing. I love that site. Right on, right on, okay, right on. And we'll we'll we'll pull from there. We'll do like up on the housetop. Click, click, click.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:03

All right, y'all. Let's get out of here. Um, anybody got a quote they want to get out of here on?

SPEAKER_04 1:32:08

This is a miracle. Merry Christmas, everyone, and have a happy new year.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:14

I don't like it. I hate it.