You're listening to Veterinary Vertex, a podcast of the AVMA journals. In this episode, we chat about differences in perceptions and satisfaction among veterinarians employed at corporate versus privately owned veterinary clinics with our guest Lori Kogan.
Lisa Fortier:Welcome to Veterinary Vertex, I'm editor in chief Lisa Fortier. I'm joined by Associate Editor Sarah Wright. Today we have Lori Kogan from CSU (go rams!) joining us. Lori, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to be here with us and educate us on this really important topic.
Lori Kogan:I am delighted to be with both of you today. And I'm excited to talk about the topic. So thanks for inviting me.
Sarah Wright:We're excited to hear about it. So let's dive right in. Your manuscript in JAVMA discusses perception and satisfaction among veterinarians employed at corporate versus privately owned veterinary clinics. Can you explain to our listeners, the differences between corporate and privately owned veterinary clinics?
Lori Kogan:Yeah, I think hopefully, what you mean is just kind of a fundamental difference in that traditionally, veterinary clinics have been owned by a veterinarian or a group of veterinarians. And, you know, that's kind of the model that many of us grew up with. But more and more, what we're seeing is that large corporations that actually have nothing to do with veterinary medicine are buying veterinary practices. And so I mean, there's well over 60 veterinary consolidators, and most of the people that lead these, these firms, they're not veterinarians. They're not veterinary related. But so now what we have is about 75% of specialty and emergency clinics are corporate owned, about 25% of all first opinion clinics.
Sarah Wright:This is a very interesting study to share with our listeners. What are the important findings from this study?
Lori Kogan:Well, I think one of the first things that we looked at was looking at some of the benefits, I mean, there's a lot of different benefits that are usually included within an employment as a veterinarian. And what we found is that people did report receiving more benefits when they worked in a corporate setting versus a private setting. And so those benefits were things like health insurance, like pretty much all of the insurances health, dental life, and short term disability. They also reported more likelihood of having like mental wellness programs, like a VIN membership, continuing education paid by their employer. So those types of things, so they had more benefits. But what was interesting was that there wasn't any difference in satisfaction of those benefits. So when we looked at satisfaction level between those two groups, so really all of our work looked at the corporate versus private, and so there was no difference in those satisfactions. What we did find, though, where there were a lot of areas that were different. And so there were many things that we assessed, that really kind of relate to emotional well being and burnout. And so those things are things like being recognized or known as an individual by upper management, on things like hospital culture, the ability to fire difficult or abusive clients and mentorship, those things were weighted higher by people that were in private versus corporate practice. And then the folks that were in corporate practice also reported feeling more pressure than those in private practice to generate revenue, and see more clients per shift. And so together all those things kind of paint a picture where it looks like maybe that that atmosphere, and a lot of the private practices might be less conducive for burnout and things like compassion, fatigue, and things like that than maybe those in a corporate practice. We also specifically looked at some of the things that because when you look at all the literature that talks about the benefits of corporate practices, there are a couple of things that are talked about over and over again. One is this ability to have more predictable hours or manageable workloads. And so that was something that was really important for us to look at. And actually we found no difference in satisfaction level between those in private versus corporate when we looked at all the different aspects that were related to schedule, and so that might be their hours per week, their length of their shifts, the ability to work at a scheduled time, their ability to have a flexible schedule based upon their needs. There were no differences between the two groups. And nor were the perceptions of their personal caseload. And so the idea that corporate offers more predictable hours and manageable workloads, we didn't find that in our research. We also really didn't find that corporate practices ran more efficiently as defined by things like being able to acquire equipment, and the ability to get treatment or diagnosis done, the hospital flow, the physical space that is available to treat animals, or practice management software systems. And so again, there were kind of no differences. And those were we also looked at, because we thought, well, maybe corporate has a lot more capital, you know, a lot more money. And so we looked at satisfaction in things like wages for all of the support staff, so the veterinary technicians, the reception staff, that and then the other support staff, and we really found, again, no difference in satisfaction levels for all of those things. But it was it was opposite of what we had thought perhaps in that corporate actually, people in corporate practice predicted less, they were less satisfied with all those things. So not only was corporate not higher, but it was actually less. And they were actually less for veterinary less satisfaction for veterinary production based finances as well. And then lastly, one of the other things I just wanted to mention was that we also sometimes corporate talks about this awesome opportunity for leadership opportunities. But we didn't find any difference. And whether people were interested in obtaining future leadership, based upon whether they were in private or corporate. And we kind of thought maybe that the people that were really interested in leadership positions that maybe they might be more in corporate, but that's not what we found.
Lisa Fortier:That's really cool like that some of the best studies you do are Mythbusters. But they also are like, wow, I heard you say at least three things. That's not what we thought was going to happen. That's not what we thought, not so much what the perception of corporate versus private. But what did you guys as the authors hypothesize, or think was going to happen? And I always find those to be the most fun studies to analyze the data. You're like, Huh, that's not what I thought. So I wonder what that means. Lori, I would say you're probably best known for human animal interaction, which is a broad term, but how, how does that relate? And what sparked your interest in this that is a little more narrow and corporate versus privately owned practices?
Lori Kogan:Well, first, I have to backtrack and say, I totally agree with you that that's what makes research so much fun, is, is getting to explore things. And neither is saying, See, I thought I was right. Or I'll be darned. So I'm always open to what the data show. But to your question, I think what really got me interested in this topic, I mean, to me, that the realm of human animal interactions is quite broad, you know, and that encompasses the mental health and well being of everybody that works with animals. So I'm a psychologist by training. And so I kind of view everything from a psychological lens and I support and coach a lot of veterinarians who are either in private or corporate settings. And, I've been hearing things for a while now that, that maybe less satisfaction from those that were in corporate, and then some real, sometimes dread or fear when they when they learn that their hospitals can be sold to a corporate practice. And so then I thought, well, I mean, I'm talking to a select group, right? And so perhaps, that this is a biased sample. And so my view is skewed. And so that's what really want led me to want to explore this more and say, Okay, what what is the general perception out there? What are they different is satisfaction different for people in corporate versus private practices?
Lisa Fortier:It's one thing to have the idea and do the research, but in the end, what inspired you to write it and if I can selfishly ask to share it with JAVMA?
Lori Kogan:Well, my research really is about trying to make a difference in the world of veterinary medicine and the world between people and animals. And so I love this type of research because to me, it's very applied and we have to know that a problem exists to be able to figure out how to fix it. And so if corporate would ended up shining in all these areas, I'd say, this is so fantastic, you know, keep doing what you're doing. But I think that this really points out some areas where I do really feel like they have the capabilities to change the structure of corporations. This means to me that they could implement some of these changes on on such a larger scale than, you know, the one veterinary hospital that's owned by one veterinarian. And so it's an exciting opportunity to say, here's some things that could really move the needle to help veterinarians feel more satisfied in their job. So that was kind of the the thought behind this study.
Lisa Fortier:Yeah, it's so great when you can listen to a problem, identify a problem, listen to it, design the study, and then actually have an impact and provide what I like to refer to as evidence based, not eminence based, right, this is an argument that's been going on for a long time. And like you said, you hear all these innuendos, but so well, then to put some strong evidence behind some of these conceptions and misconceptions. And we both we alluded to this a little bit already. It's so much fun when you're like, whoa, I didn't expect that. What is the most surprising findings from your manuscript that you had? You're like, that can't be how, why is that?
Lori Kogan:One of the things that I double checked a couple of times, because I was surprised is that, that younger veterinarians are more likely to be in the private practices versus the corporate and because I thought that maybe because of the work schedule, and stuff like that, or the perception of that, I thought maybe it would be the other way around. But then when I, you know, did more research around the topic, and really looked at the entrepreneurial spirit of younger veterinarians and not always so much wanting to own a practice, but just that that general spirit of kind of wanting to find their own path, and then it made more sense to me that they seem to be gravitating more towards private practice. So that was a little bit surprising.
Sarah Wright:Yeah, as a young veterinarian myself, I can attest, that's pretty similar to what a lot of my classmates did was gravitate towards private practices upon graduation. So Lori, you've had a lot of advanced training, how has this prepared you to write this manuscript?
Lori Kogan:Well, I think this is what I love doing. So all of my research revolves around human animal interactions. And, you know, I work at Colorado State University. And you know, as Lisa said, but so I, you know, I certainly have all those different components of a faculty position. But research is really the thing that excites me so. So I have a lot of experience, being able to take things that are of interest and saying, Okay, how do we explore this? How do we get some data to figure out like, what our next directions should be? It's almost like the best part is that you get the data, and then you're like, ooh, now we can do this. And this, and it really does lead down several different paths. So always pushing the envelope.
Sarah Wright:This next question is very important for our listeners, what is one piece of information the veterinarian should know before discussing this topic with the client?
Lori Kogan:You know, I think that if this topic or to come up, I think that what I would talk about is the fact that whether it's corporate owned or privately owned, it's ultimately going to end up on who the individuals are at that particular hospital. And so I don't think that most clients know nor necessarily care whether a hospital is corporate or private own. What they care about, is the relationship that they have with their veterinarian and their veterinary support staff. And so that's where I would go with that.
Sarah Wright:Thank you very much. And you're not unfamiliar to the podcast space. You actually also host a podcast about human and animal interaction. Can you share with our listeners, what they can learn from your podcast and where they can find your podcast?
Lori Kogan:Sure that podcast is on that human animal interactions section website. So that is a section of the American Psychological Association, but anybody can join and it's free to join. And then these podcasts are just short podcast about people's research. It was really my way of, I really want to bring together practitioners and researchers. And because oftentimes they're kind of in their own silos. And so I just wanted to people be able to talk casually about what research they do. And kind of bring those those worlds together of all the people that are interested in human animal interactions.
Lisa Fortier:That's so cool. I'm going to find it. And maybe you can direct some of them our way to JAVMA again. Laurie, thank you. This is super important information for our practitioners. So thank you for sharing it with us at JAVMA.
Lori Kogan:Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
Lisa Fortier:Yeah, in order to get to where you are with, as Sarah said, advanced degrees and just a wonderful career, you have to have what some people are calling resilience, inspiration, determination, where do you think yours came from?
Lori Kogan:Think, you know, it sounds kind of corny, but I just think I just want to make the world a better place, you know. And so that's what always seems to drive, you know, this one next study, or I think, gosh, this is really important to know, this could help kind of move the needle in this important area. And that's really super motivating to me. So when people read my work, or they say, Well, you know, I did something based upon what you did, or what I read that you did. That's a ton of motivation to me. So it's so rewarding.
Lisa Fortier:Yeah, it's great to be able to help people. So again, you've been you've impacted so many people with your manuscript and coming on this podcast. So thank you, again.
Lori Kogan:Thank you.
Lisa Fortier:As we wind down, we'd like to ask a little bit more of a personal question. And we always get some great answers to this. What is the oldest of the most interesting thing either on or in your desk drawer?
Lori Kogan:I think maybe one of the oldest things is, is a picture of my grandmother that I keep in my drawer, because she was a really important person in my life. And she really brought home the message to me, probably because she told me a billion times how important education was and that it was this one thing that nobody could ever take away from you. And I really took that to heart now. I don't know whether she meant a PhD. But, um, but she was a huge presence in my life. And so it's a picture of us together when I was a kid.
Lisa Fortier:I remember my mom saying, Are you ever gonna, when are you gonna be done with school, right? You do your undergrad at that school, and then a residency and then a PhD. And I was like, it's just learning is just amazing. Everyday is a school day. And it's just we're really it's such a wonderful career.
Sarah Wright:Absolutely. I feel so blessed. Yeah. You guys are not alone. I've gotten that question a lot. They're like, so when do you get a real job? That's always the ask. We're very, very fortunate. It's just a phenomenal profession that we're all a part of. And thank you, Laurie, for sharing this manuscript with JAVMA and for sharing your knowledge with our listeners today, too.
Lori Kogan:Well, thank you so much. It was wonderful.
Sarah Wright:And to our listeners, you can read Lori's manuscript and print JAVMA or on our journals website. I am Sarah Wright with Lisa Fortier. We want to thank each of you for joining us on this episode of the Veterinary Vertex podcast. We love sharing cutting edge veterinary research with you and we want to hear from you. Be sure to leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or whatever platform you listen to