Dive deep into the world of storytelling with Pamela Muñoz Ryan, the acclaimed author behind ‘Echo’ and ‘Esperanza Rising,’ on the Beyond Hope Project podcast. Discover her journey from humble beginnings to literary acclaim, her unique approach to weaving narratives that don’t always tie up in a perfect bow but inspire strength and perseverance. Learn how failure shaped her path and why putting one foot in front of the other is the key to overcoming challenges and crafting stories that resonate across ages.
ABOUT PAMELA:
Pam Muñoz Ryan is an American author and the 2018 U.S. nominee for the international Hans Christian Andersen Award. She is the author of ECHO, a Newbery Honor book and the recipient of the Kirkus Prize. She has written over forty books, including the novels ESPERANZA RISING, BECOMING NAOMI LEÓN, RIDING FREEDOM, PAINT THE WIND, THE DREAMER, ECHO, MAN-YANNA-LAND, and SOLIMAR. She is the author recipient of the National Education Association’s Civil and Human Rights Award, the Virginia Hamilton Literary Award for Multicultural Literature, and is twice the recipient of the Pura Belpré Medal and the Willa Cather Award.
CONNECT WITH PAMELA:
✩ Website: https://www.pammunozryan.com
✩ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/pammunozryan
✩ X (Twitter) @PamMunozRyan
CONNECT WITH JASON:
✩ Website - https://www.jasontharp.com
✩ BHP - https://www.beyondhopeproject.com
✩ Beyond Hope Project Podcast - https://www.jasontharp.com/podcast
✩ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/wondervillestudios/
✩ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/wondervillestudios
✩ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@thepowerupproject?_t=8e4jxMT9QFP&_r=1
✩ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/beyondhopeproject
OFFICIAL SHOP & BOOKSTORE:
📚 https://www.jasontharp.com/shop
MEET JASON:
Hi, I’m Jason!
Ever since I was six, I knew I was born to tell stories. As a best-selling author, illustrator, and sought-after speaker, I've turned my personal battles with grade four brain cancer, obesity, and negative self-talk into fuel for transformation. My keynotes don't just talk—they spark potential, ignite creativity, and build resilience. If you're ready for an engaging experience that challenges the status quo and propels your organization to new heights, let's turn your 'impossible today' into 'possible tomorrow' together!
For more information or to partner with me - https://www.jasontharp.com/bookjason
Dive deep into the world of storytelling with Pamela Muñoz Ryan, the acclaimed author behind ‘Echo’ and ‘Esperanza Rising,’ on the Beyond Hope Project podcast. Discover her journey from humble beginnings to literary acclaim, her unique approach to weaving narratives that don’t always tie up in a perfect bow but inspire strength and perseverance. Learn how failure shaped her path and why putting one foot in front of the other is the key to overcoming challenges and crafting stories that resonate across ages.
ABOUT PAMELA:
Pam Muñoz Ryan is an American author and the 2018 U.S. nominee for the international Hans Christian Andersen Award. She is the author of ECHO, a Newbery Honor book and the recipient of the Kirkus Prize. She has written over forty books, including the novels ESPERANZA RISING, BECOMING NAOMI LEÓN, RIDING FREEDOM, PAINT THE WIND, THE DREAMER, ECHO, MAN-YANNA-LAND, and SOLIMAR. She is the author recipient of the National Education Association’s Civil and Human Rights Award, the Virginia Hamilton Literary Award for Multicultural Literature, and is twice the recipient of the Pura Belpré Medal and the Willa Cather Award.
CONNECT WITH PAMELA:
✩ Website: https://www.pammunozryan.com
✩ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/pammunozryan
✩ X (Twitter) @PamMunozRyan
CONNECT WITH JASON:
✩ Website - https://www.jasontharp.com
✩ BHP - https://www.beyondhopeproject.com
✩ Beyond Hope Project Podcast - https://www.jasontharp.com/podcast
✩ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/wondervillestudios/
✩ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/wondervillestudios
✩ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@thepowerupproject?_t=8e4jxMT9QFP&_r=1
✩ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/beyondhopeproject
OFFICIAL SHOP & BOOKSTORE:
📚 https://www.jasontharp.com/shop
MEET JASON:
Hi, I’m Jason!
Ever since I was six, I knew I was born to tell stories. As a best-selling author, illustrator, and sought-after speaker, I've turned my personal battles with grade four brain cancer, obesity, and negative self-talk into fuel for transformation. My keynotes don't just talk—they spark potential, ignite creativity, and build resilience. If you're ready for an engaging experience that challenges the status quo and propels your organization to new heights, let's turn your 'impossible today' into 'possible tomorrow' together!
For more information or to partner with me - https://www.jasontharp.com/bookjason
in stories a lot of times people really want every little thread tied up they want that happy ending in a in a
0:08
book um a lot of my books don't have what you aren't tied up in that perfect bow of Happy Endings a lot of my stories
0:15
don't end like that and but I if I've done my job I've given the
0:24
reader the knowledge that that my character Has the strength to carry on
0:32
and to put one foot in front of the other so um so I guess what I'm saying
0:41
is when something is a a huge challenge you may not get you know the carrot
0:47
that's being dangled or you may not get what you consider the happy ending in your
0:53
quest but just keep putting one foot in front
0:58
of the other [Music]
1:10
yeah that's awesome thank you hey Pam how are you I'm greates great nice to
1:16
see you yeah we we met uh in Nebraska of all places like you know that's where
1:21
everybody goes to meet um at a Book Festival and um you know I was I was
1:27
kind of like the the rookie author out there not really sure how those things
1:33
work and just kind of like feeling very um if I'm being honest like a little
1:39
imposter syndrome for me uh even though I had at the time I think I I think I
1:44
had 13 books out or something like that but it was just like I was like oh my God like I I do I belong here and um so
1:53
yeah it's it's it's awesome to have you here and I can't wait to dive into um a
1:58
conversation with you oh thanks well the impostor syndrome is real I I mean it took me a really long time to when
2:05
people ask me oh what do you do to say oh I'm a writer or I'm an author or you know um especially in the beginning when
2:11
you know you maybe even had sold a few things but they hadn't come out yet so
2:16
you almost like for me like I almost felt like I was making it up right it wasn't really real that's awesome yeah I
2:25
can I can definitely relate to that because it was like everybody thinks that you all you do is when you write a book it just magically shows up you know
2:31
and you're like oh no it's it's a long long long time in many many yeah I would love it if it magically showed up
2:39
because you're like I've been writing this thing forever and now I gotta wait even longer for it to come out yeah it
2:44
is uh that's the thing that people don't understand how much like when you go into self-publishing I think people take
2:49
it for granted because they think that it's so easy you just hit publish and it's there and reality is you know
2:56
traditional it is like you know almost like it's a weird it's like retail it's like you're working like almost like two
3:01
years out or a year and a half out and you're like oh so far out yeah and these you know these days the publishing uh
3:08
production schedules are ve pushed so far out too so even when you finish a book back in the day I would finish the
3:15
book in say September and it would come out the following September but now it's even farther out you know it's like a
3:21
year and a half out for production so yeah just it's a very slow industry
3:26
that's wild well Pam I want to like def to you um start out with a like a tough
3:32
question out of the get-go for this and what and the best way to do it is to really kind of tell you how we Define
3:38
Hope on this this podcast and how I Define hope in my everyday life is I
3:44
Define hope as an impact point so a starting point an ignition switch almost to get people to um achieve or try to
3:51
achieve something that maybe others might think is a possible and then the second part is that it also is the way
3:57
back when you start uh ultimately you might fail or something will go wrong and you need a
4:03
way back to that starting point A lot of times people say that I'm failing but really what you're doing is just started
4:08
a new path right and this is the next beginning and so having no an idea of
4:15
what that definition is if you could go back at any point in your life and give
4:21
young Pam um hope what would that look like and what might you
4:28
say well well um gosh I thought that question was going in an entirely
4:34
different direction I um you know growing up I come from a
4:40
very sort of humble blue collar back background meaning my both my parents um
4:46
worked my dad drove a delivery truck um I had sort of a very pedestrian childhood growing up in Bakersville
4:53
California um I didn't really know what all of the POS my possibilities were um
5:01
and it was a very different time in education too like you know I never um
5:06
as as much as I loved books from about fifth grade on I had no idea that
5:12
writing them was something that I could aspire to so I um so I you know so when
5:20
I look back on that time um I I look at Hope as all of the white space in our
5:27
life like all the possibility that could be can be are sort of out
5:33
there you know kind of out there on the horizon um waiting for us and um I I
5:40
would say that I would say to me as as a teenager there's going there's so much
5:47
more out there than you even realize and you know when you move away
5:53
from home when you go away to college when you you know as you grow you know all of these things will manifest
6:00
and um and so I guess that's what I would would tell myself is that I don't
6:06
know that I would tell tell myself really specific things I think I would just tell myself that there's you know
6:13
that there's a lot of possibilities out there yeah and fortunately we live in a
6:18
country where there's a lot more ways there's a lot of ways to get from point A to point B um you know the front door the back
6:27
door you know um so um so I would just reassure myself
6:35
that um all of that white space in my life number one gave me Room to Grow but
6:42
also um sort of kept me looking out at the Horizon yeah that's a great answer
6:49
and do you remember like the first thing that you wrote that kind of kicked that
6:55
door open that said wow maybe I'm good at this I don't you know I W I was I was
7:01
a late bloomer meaning that I you know like I said curriculum was really
7:07
different when I went to school in the late 50s so um we didn't write across the C
7:13
curriculum we didn't have authors visit our schools we my school didn't have a library wow we didn't um didn't have
7:21
family literature night um I think I would have loved all of those things so
7:27
I didn't really ever consider writing as a Prof you know as a profession and I
7:32
didn't do recre what you call recreational writing I mean I remember getting a few Diaries growing up and I
7:40
was not very diligent you know like maybe writing in it for a week or two and then they just got set aside and I
7:47
never wrote in them again and so um I don't have like you know childhood
7:54
memories of writing it it wasn't really in my that my that wheelhouse when I grew up
8:00
I do remember reading and BEC and I but I also a late
8:05
bloomer in that area too I didn't become what you'd call an obsessive reader until I was like fifth grade we moved
8:10
across town I was the new kid I just didn't you know I didn't really fit in and I found myself riding my bike to the
8:17
library to the little tiny Branch library and um and I kind of you know I
8:22
was coping through books at that point and I became what you would consider you know an obsessive reader so I don't
8:30
remember the first thing I I wrote I Remember well I take I'm going to take that
8:35
back so I was sort of an obsessive reader fifth sixth seventh grade seventh
8:41
grade I went to Junior High School and um I was on the the um um I was asked to
8:49
write an article for the school newspaper because I was in one club and somebody said oh we want an article
8:54
about that and my English teacher said um is there anybody in here that belongs to to that club and I raised my hand and
9:01
and she encouraged me to write an article about what it was like to be in that club and I did and um and then I
9:09
saw my My article that I wrote in the school newspaper and you know I saw my name in
9:17
print and and so I I mean certainly that probably was a defining moment for me in
9:24
that I really gravitated towards uh towards writing from that
9:30
point on although I have to tell you um in high school I be I was much more
9:35
concerned with being a teenager as I was um you know much more so than I was about being a writer I um so I want but
9:45
I I always knew from from high school I knew that I wanted to have a profession
9:51
that had to do with books that honestly I never considered writing them I thought I would work in a bookstore I
9:56
would work in a library um my mom was a clerk in a library so I thought I might work in a library or I might be a
10:02
teacher because that would keep me around books so my focus um was really
10:08
about reading more than writing wow um and so
10:15
so yeah um I went away to school and Beca and I did become a teacher for a few years and um and and two it's kind
10:22
of laughable when I look think back on it and I think what would my parents have said if I said you know oh I want
10:28
to you know I want to go to college and I want to become a writer you know I came from you know a family where your
10:35
your job needed to pay your bills yeah and for them I don't think they would have even had a concept and I didn't
10:41
know that at that point that that was something I wanted to be yeah so so uh
10:47
so yeah it wasn't until um I went away to school um had my four children went
10:53
back to school to get my Master's Degree because I decided I wanted to teach children's literature and um so I went
11:00
back to get my Master's Degree and one of my professors asked me to stay after class one day and she asked me have you ever considered doing any a any
11:07
professional writing and the first thing I thought of was that little article I had written in junior high school you
11:13
know and and uh and I and I I was honest with her I said no because I thought she
11:20
was talking about like academic writing and I said no it's never occurred to me and she encouraged me and she said I
11:25
really think you have a gift and you it might be something that you might want to pursue so she planted a seed you know
11:32
and I think it's I think the key to that to what that story really is is that when people tell you you're good at
11:40
something or they plant a little seed about a possibility in your mind and
11:45
especially if you can't stop thinking about it you have to pursue it on some level to find out yeah if it might Bloom
11:54
I love that I love that and if you could if what what do you think that little uh
12:02
you know what you said Middle School Pam would have thought having seen their
12:10
name in print the first time would if you could sit with her right now and be like check out these Awards check out
12:17
these books what do you think that they would say to you um I I don't know I mean it was
12:26
um you know it's it's it's hard to no I mean it's it was just that you know that
12:33
was just that little push that little push that you know seeing my name in print seeing the article printed um and
12:39
then the next year I became the editor of that Junior High newspaper which I didn't really know what that meant
12:45
except I I knew that it meant assigning other people projects right and so um I
12:50
mean I I guess I would look back on it and say um wow you know think of how
12:56
good you you'd be now if you would stay with it really pursued it in high school
13:02
and majored in creative writing and all of that but but on the other hand it's a hard profession and there is
13:09
a practical side of it yeah and I did need a I did need a profession that paid the bills and so my I my idea as much as
13:16
I loved books and knowing that I wanted to have something to do with or stay
13:22
close to them all the time I also knew that I needed you know I needed a job that
13:29
in which I could play in which I could pay my bills yeah and I think you know
13:35
one of the things that I will say about reading your your your stories
13:41
um it I guess maybe it it comes from having been like same as you like I I
13:48
found my best friends in books you know where it was like the first time I mean I will never forget the first time I
13:54
read sidoff Stanley and I was probably like seven or eight years old and it was the first
14:00
time I read something that made me feel seen and um you know and when I listen
14:08
when I when I you would I we met and I bought Echo and and you you I think texed me you're
14:15
like you should listen to it and so I was like okay and I listen to it and I remember like I told you I was like and
14:22
I'm like holy cow your book is like making me cry I'm like and and I listen to it straight through it's like a
14:28
10hour like it's really yeah and not to mention the book itself is a very thick
14:33
book and and I just remember like going like holy cow like this this is how I
14:41
wish I could write like and it was like I guess my question is just as a as a
14:47
fellow author and and anybody out there aspiring like how did you learn to tell a
14:54
story that um Can Feel So related able
15:00
through um something as simple as a harmonica like you know like how like
15:07
what what is that bridge I guess that you go through is there is there a sort of process that you start with or do you start with the end in mind or like I'm
15:14
just curious like what how do you recommend somebody structure something first of all it's such a hard question
15:19
to answer because what you're really asking me is how does your mind work right true yes true so and I so one
15:27
thing about a coming together is that for me like I've never had one of those
15:33
like aha moments like where you know I see something or read something and all of a sudden I know wow that's a great
15:40
book and you know and have all the components and like that light bulb moment I've i' I've never really had
15:47
anything like that for me it's always been um you know the idea for a book is
15:53
like a Confluence of rivers it's like I'm researching something over here that
15:59
comes together that I want to use and then I get sidetracked and I'm researching something else and and I
16:04
want to use that part and it's like you know it's it's all of it's a number of
16:10
things that come together and um and so that's you know I mean and I'm I'm a
16:18
very recursive writer and what I mean by that is I usually have that opening
16:23
scene in mind for each of my books like that that first scene that you read and
16:30
I start writing that and the next day I go back to the beginning and I reread
16:36
what I wrote and then I edit and then I write some more the next day I go back to the beginning and I read and I edit
16:43
and I write some more and I inch it forward forward you know and go back to the beginning and you know I will go
16:49
back to the beginning almost every day for not the whole duration of the book certainly there comes a point especially
16:55
if I'm working in a book in sections that I only go back maybe for four or five chapters but I'm always going back
17:00
to the beginning and reading and trying to thread you know all those themes I wish I could tell you that I I know in
17:06
advance I mean you talk to a hundred different writers you're going to give a hundred different stories about their process yeah and when people ask you
17:14
what's your process it's because they want to know like your tidy procedure like like do you make an outline first
17:20
or do you do you know I I have friends who have a big corkboard and they do the little cards on the corkboard like
17:27
little index cards and put all the different scenes on there and then once they get that all established and they
17:32
follow everything meticulously and I don't I don't have a way like that I
17:37
know how to do all those things I know how to outline and I know how to plot things on index cards so if I get stuck
17:45
if and I need to do one of those exercises I certainly know how to do it but I don't um I'm more of a by the seat
17:53
of my pants writer cool and so um but I also you know
17:58
I have great editor too so she she really helps keep me keep me focused and
18:04
I wish I could tell you that I understood my own process but I'm um I'm
18:11
not really sure that um that I do I will tell you
18:17
this one thing I believe in writing is that momentum is far more important than
18:23
inspiration and what I mean by that is the physical act of sitting down and
18:28
front of the manuscript every day or every so many day or whatever consistently that physical
18:35
act that momentum that you get from writing regularly that's where I
18:43
find things pop into my mind and you know they um that's where I find myself
18:50
discovering things about my characters and about my story I just think that momentum is far more important than
18:56
inspiration personally I've not ever had like that Muse moment where a muse comes down and sprinkles fairy dust on me and
19:03
all of a sudden I'm super inspired to write um I don't personally have the luxury of having writer block I mean I'm
19:11
I'm a working writer so whether or not I feel like it or not I still sit down and
19:17
write and try to move the story forward um so that that's that's wonderful and I
19:24
think that that's the beauty of it too it's it I think that a lot of times
19:30
because I'm asked the same question like where do your ideas come from yeah and I'm like know well like this one started
19:37
this way and you know like I like I obviously I went through you had a book canceled I had a book canceled and my
19:44
the unicorn book was one for me and it was like you know and kids would be like I don't understand why people I'm like
19:50
well they perceived it this way but actually what the story came from was I was trying to figure out a way to make people kids feel normal and I wanted to
19:56
create a character that was easy for them to love right out of the gate and all kids love unicorn so this is easy
20:02
you know and I and as an illustrator also I love that it opens up the whole color palette like because it's rainbows
20:09
and everything and it's like people put bring that that that their perceptions on it but you know I think I I want to
20:15
Echo like a little bit about if there's any other writers out there listening to this that the idea of just showing up
20:20
daily in writing and I think a lot of that um you helped spark that in me too was that you know I had a book that I
20:27
had work worked on and I sent it to you and you had said to me I think you have more to say and why don't you spread
20:34
this out a little bit and it was like it was the first time and first off it came with a lot of weight
20:40
because you you like are definitely by far like the when I
20:46
think of a a author when I was a kid or even aspiring to be an author as I got
20:53
older having somebody like you that I could text it's like holy this is
20:59
this is insane you know and for you to say that like you know no this is good you just have more to say was like oh my
21:06
God like maybe I actually am a writer but what that did just so you know is it really encouraged me to start showing up
21:13
daily and so I started writing daily and out of that I mean I'm working on my
21:19
third book now and um I started a daily um practice and I keep sending to my
21:25
friends and I'm like okay now I'm months into this this is definitely a book but here's an excerpt from it what do you
21:31
think and they're like holy cow what is this and I'm like I don't know I just write them every day and and it's just
21:37
the act of showing up and it's the same deal that you're talking about and so it it's a real exercise I think that other
21:43
people that are aspiring to write you know um I think what happens is people
21:48
read your books and they think it must be easy but uh well I think I think you
21:54
hit up on something when you said this is an exercise because when I'm in my when I'm in the
22:01
middle of a project and I'm going to the manuscript every day
22:06
um a lot of it ends up being an exercise and I'm a very pract have a very
22:11
practical mindset about my writing I know that all all the things all the scenes I write are not going to be used
22:17
I know that a lot of them are going to be cut um I'm not M you know I'm not
22:22
married to those to those scenes like sure
22:28
sometimes when my editor says hey can we you know what do you think about taking out this whole section here like I'm I'm
22:34
not really sure why you have it there it's really slowing down the pace and all that and yeah ouch that does hurt
22:42
but I think ultimately you know I I want it to be
22:47
the best book that it can be and she's not telling me that to be mean right
22:53
she's telling me that to be practical yeah and for me the real key especially writing for this age group like fifth
22:59
grade through nth grade 10th grade for me the biggest like people say what's your
23:07
motivation my biggest goal for the reader is I want the reader to turn the page I don't have any other ulterior
23:14
motives yeah you know as a reader I want to want to turn the page right yeah you
23:21
you want to keep you know so it's it's um so I appreciate it when my editor says to me you know this is really
23:28
slowing down the pacing here are you sure you want to take this much time with it or do you want to maybe tighten this up a little or whatever you know so
23:35
she'll point out things that really help me stay focused in that way but back to what you were saying is that so much of
23:42
my writing when I'm working on a book um and I'm revisiting the manuscript
23:48
regularly um I I do allow myself to to think about it in terms of okay this
23:54
chapter might just be an exercise but here we go you know yeah that's amaz when you're when you're
23:59
writing like how you know you mentioned the the whole editing process of it and
24:05
I think a lot of times people don't understand uh at least what I hear
24:10
everybody's like I have the book written and I'm like well it's probably not good and they take that as hard criticism and
24:15
it's like how many have you written they're like well one and I'm like H okay like keep writing you know and I'm
24:21
curious just myself like uh with something like Echo like you know how
24:27
like how long did it take and what how many edits did would you recomend like
24:33
reckon you you know what yeah well you know what's interesting is that um
24:38
nowadays because of the computer um I don't print every draft right oh yeah I didn't think about that
24:45
so you know back in the day back in the day when I first started 25 27 years ago
24:52
um I used to print a lot of drafts like you know I would print them all the time um and but now I don't I I rarely print
25:00
a draft because I'm on working on the computer and I'm in track changes with
25:05
my editor and stuff so so that's really interesting but that that we don't print you know um so many drafts anymore but
25:12
my um back to Echo so echko was particularly um cumbersome because of
25:18
the historical research so the book took from the time my previous book was
25:24
published until this one came out was six years wow um but that was also production time built in and we did my
25:31
editor editor and I um worked on it in so like in sections so Frederick's
25:37
section and um and um you know um the middle section and Ivy Maria section and
25:45
you know so we did it in three different sections and we would work you know I would I would send her each of the
25:52
sections and then we framed I framed it in the fairy tale and um so there were
25:58
some components so we could take the components out and work on them and then put them back in yeah it's a beautiful
26:04
book it it really is like such a good like I said I mean it it it held me the
26:10
whole I mean 10 hour audio but I was like I was I couldn't stop listening to it and it was just it's such a really
26:17
you know the the audio the Audio I have to give the production company Weston Woods credit because they what they
26:24
hired four or five different readers and um for each of the sections and you know
26:29
they were so careful and also having a soundtrack was you know really lovely
26:36
and you know so they really did a wonderful I mean they did incredible production yeah it's it's it's literally
26:42
like I mean I I it's almost like listening to a movie like I've pictured it all in my head you know and it's it's
26:49
really cool and you know I I think that um you know I I just was curious like
26:55
how much of do you think there was value in the fact that you had your kids and
27:02
you know having that experience of already in some sort of ways you know some people I say like well know what
27:08
you don't want to do right you had a job for a long time and then but you were kind of pulled back to that thing like
27:15
from a from having you know that gap between how like how would you say that
27:21
you've experienced through life whether it's through your kids or grandkids that you kind of look at that and go like
27:27
don't that I'll revisit revisit you someday like and you know uh I just
27:32
remember as a six I knew I wanted to be a Storyteller and I fought it forever and then it always got showing up and
27:38
I'm just curious you would you ever reflect back on that and go like wow like it really while I did these things
27:45
and I might enjoy it but look how that always kept showing up in these weird spots that kind of pull you back well
27:52
first well I think that a lot of what you're saying is true because I was the oldest of the three daughters in my
27:59
family but I was also the oldest of the 23 grandchildren on my mother's side of the family 23 so and 23 cousins just on
28:07
one side and my three sisters so I was the oldest of the 23 cousins I was the oldest of the three sisters I was the
28:13
oldest girl in the neighborhood when we moved across town it was the oldest girl there was three girls next door and
28:18
there was two down here and there was some more kids across the street and I was the oldest of all of them so um and
28:25
so my and my extended family was all around me so whenever we were got together you know I always had
28:33
minions you know so I always had so if we were GNA play I'd say I was the one to say okay this is going to be the
28:39
school and of course I was going to be the teacher and you're gonna do this and then um or this is going to be a train
28:45
and you know and you guys are going to have a fight then um I'm GNA come and save the day and I'm mean you know so
28:50
all of this um and I also had big blocks of un un choreographed time in my
28:57
childhood which is I'm sorry to say a gift that I wasn't completely able to give my own children because I think
29:04
it's such father for your imagination but um I think you know I was so that's
29:09
all pre-writing you know you know plays and and playing and and um you know um
29:17
your storytelling you know and everyone's participating and it's funny
29:23
because if you watch young children play you know on a very basic level like preschoolers you know you'll hear
29:29
somebody say okay this is going to be the zoo and you're going to be the this and I'm going to be the that and then
29:34
they create a scenario and if the scenario doesn't work they're like no no no you have to you know you have to be
29:39
meaner you have to be nicer you have to be this that and then someone's going to come and save you and you know and then
29:45
create these little scenarios and they will replay them over and over and over again until their plot perfect yeah and
29:52
um you know and so I think that I put a lot of value in that kind of play
29:58
pretend play and I and I was privileged enough to grow up with in a time where I
30:05
had a lot of it and I was the boss of it yeah so that was a real gift really when
30:10
you think about my life as a writer yeah did you did you pass any of that
30:16
stuff on as a parent like did are do you like have you know you had mentioned before that you have grand your
30:22
grandchildren you you have to pick up a granddaughter here in a bit but like did you are you now telling those stories
30:29
are you playing a storytelling role in their world like to help them or do you kind of like not really yeah well not
30:36
really not really because well first of all they're in a whole
30:41
different when my kids were growing up there were tons of books in the house you know I had lots and lots of books I
30:47
didn't really be start writing until my youngest were like my youngest my first
30:54
book was published I think when they were about six but my novels that I became known for completely missed my
31:01
own kids oh wow because they were they were too old okay so they had gotten out
31:06
of the grades before I became really wellknown or successful or maybe I just
31:11
had one book you know what I mean yeah so um my grandchildren um are are far
31:17
more impressed with me because they go to school and the teachers recognize my name or recognize or my or my my
31:24
children will come and get books to give my grand children's teachers right yeah so um but yeah I'm I've I haven't you
31:34
know um we just had a lot of books around the house and we did a lot of reading my grandchildren are far more
31:40
voracious readers than my own children were I mean they're just um they're amazing readers but they're kind of gr
31:47
they um a couple of them have outgrown me they've read my books or they were forced to read them in school and now
31:53
they're just on to other things do you ever I'm just curious like do you
31:59
ever having grown up like you know with a humble background and all that stuff like that like you talked about and it
32:04
sounds like a ton of kids um around all the time do you ever
32:10
like like I see behind you your bookshelf and stuff like that do you ever take a moment to sit back and just
32:18
shock yourself of what you've done like honestly really like do you like I mean
32:24
because I think that a lot of times people don't they feel like they have it in them but
32:30
they won't even bother pick up the pen to try to write that story or they won't pick up the narrative because I think
32:37
they're afraid of what might actually come out of it or not come out of it and
32:42
I think for those of us that make it like what do you like do you ever do that do you ever stop and just go like wow like it's
32:48
really yeah I mean of course I mean every once in a while I I'll look at what I've done and I'm you know I'm like
32:56
wow I me Amed but I will tell you this I was asked during an interview once uh what's a question that you you're not
33:04
usually asked but you wish that you were asked and but that you wish people would
33:09
ask you and I my answer was I wish people would ask me about failure because um you
33:17
know any of my success is the tip of an iceberg
33:24
of a bunch of failure and starting over and you know um rethinking and um
33:32
rewriting and so you know I think um I just I think the failure um it's so it's you know I try
33:40
to look at it more as a challenge I mean when I first started out I got rejected
33:46
this was back before you did it online you sent in real manuscripts to Publishers and you had to get their names from a from the writer market and
33:54
I used to get these little cards in the mail and I wish I I wish I'd kept or counted how many but probably hundreds
34:01
of rejections in in the early days until I finally got a literary agent but what
34:07
I'm saying is that you can get discouraged very easily it's like everything really you can get discouraged very easily yeah and um and
34:17
I I think what it boils down to sometimes and I'm not quite sure is is how much do you love it yeah right like
34:26
yeah wonder you know what what is it that makes some people go on and some
34:32
people go I don't know this isn't for me right and do you think that is that what the fuel comes down to what makes you
34:38
show up every day is just because you love it or is it because of a habit now
34:44
well I well I think it's I think it's a little bit of because I love it I also
34:51
think I have the right temperament for it I I mean I can go you know I can go
34:57
weeks on end was sitting down every morning and working on my manuscript and
35:05
and and you know I think you do have to have a certain temperament to do that right yeah and um um and I and I think
35:12
too because it became redeeming yeah I loved it I kept at it and then it became
35:19
redeeming right people started saying I love this or a publisher said oh yes we
35:24
want to publish this or then you get an award for something and then once it becomes
35:29
redeeming it's like a drug yeah yeah yeah I just want to Echo that back for
35:36
people that are listening you know it is this thing of I think that everybody looks at a success and they
35:43
think that it was the first thing you did and I think that people what Pam
35:49
said there and you really got to hear it is that you just keep showing up then the rewards come it's not it it doesn't
35:57
it's manifesting by the fact that you're willing to show up every day and hold in your mind what that Vision may be and
36:03
being flexible enough yeah yeah and I think that whole thing about failure you know it's interesting what
36:10
people consider failure like a lot of people consider something being a failure because it's
36:16
hard but this this work is hard yeah you know or they they consider being a
36:21
failure well I haven't been able to get anything published and then I'm like well have you joined you know the
36:26
Society of children book writers have you gotten into a writing group have you done this and this and this and this you
36:31
know like try to give them Avenues to to to take um but a lot of times people
36:39
equate failure with difficulty that is difficult yeah and um
36:47
you know I'm verly practical about my job it's it's it is work and um it's
36:54
work that I really love not I mean I kids ask me all the time well do you ever get up and you
37:00
just don't want to do it I'm like of course of course you know yeah absolutely yeah well I I want
37:08
to I want to like wrap up with like a question to start like as we start winding down because I'm I really want
37:14
to be respectful of your time um you know in in the process of failing I
37:19
think I think you nailed it so awesome and I love that people ask that you want
37:25
that question asked because I think that's a lot of times what um you know people have gone through like what I go
37:31
through with like the health stuff and what I went through with writing and it's and it's like
37:37
you I think trying to think the best way to say this so what I always kind of
37:43
equated to was I leaned on what my strengths were to get through the
37:48
failing and if you were to like give somebody some sort of advice having been
37:54
through like you said an iceberg of failures like what is it that needs to happen in
38:00
order of you to accept that failing is okay and that getting back up doesn't
38:06
mean that you're wrong it just means that you maybe have like a wrong
38:11
direction or that there's more to play I guess than just your own mind like what like what is what how would you frame
38:17
that up into some sort of statement for somebody that is out there maybe going like God I really just I want to get the
38:24
first one done or I want to get that first page equate I'm gonna equate that to Happy Endings okay because you know
38:32
um in stories a lot of times people really want every little thread tied up
38:37
they want that happy ending in a in a book um a lot of my books don't have
38:44
what you aren't tied up in that perfect bow of Happy Endings a lot of my stories don't end like that and
38:51
but I if I've done my job I've given even
38:57
the reader the knowledge that that my character has the strength to carry on
39:05
and to put one foot in front of the other so um so I guess what I'm saying
39:13
is when something is a a huge challenge you may not get you know the carrot
39:20
that's being dangled or you may not get what you consider the happy ending in your quest
39:28
but just keep putting one foot in front of the other I mean you know um and I'm
39:35
not sure I'm saying that right and certainly not in a a quotable way but I guess what I I mean by it is that um you
39:43
know um what's the altern you know I I guess you just keep putting one foot in
39:48
front of the other towards the direction will bring you as close to a
39:54
happy ending as you can have you you know I don't look at a a book that I you know I don't I don't look at not having
40:02
a happy ending as a failure I look at it as um somebody with the strength to
40:11
carry on if somebody has the strength to carry on that in itself is a happy ending
40:19
yeah I I think that's a wonderful answer I think that's perfect yeah I mean it
40:24
really is it's it's I think a lot of people like I I've experienced you know they have that same question as like you
40:31
know how did you do it you know and right and you know well what's the alternative too right and it's and it's
40:37
like you know well I think there's a little bit of Rebel right it's almost like a little bit of like oh yeah well
40:42
I'll show you you know but then eventually that wears off like that that that wears off it's like you know you're
40:48
like well I'll show you that I'm not a writer whatever it could be you know I'll show you I'm not going to you know do this and and but it does wear off and
40:56
it does ultimately come down to like you said just putting one foot in front of the other because the alternative you
41:02
know is like you said it's what's the opposite you know and that that could be reality too you know and um all stuff
41:09
like that but yeah that's a fantastic answer and and Pam I I know I want to wrap this up and I just want to again
41:15
let everybody know I'm going to make sure that there's links to all of Pam's books in um the show notes so uh but I
41:21
highly recommend that you read these stories it does I I know that you say fifth through grade but like you know
41:27
like I I am 47 and I read it and I was I was in tears when I was like listening
41:33
to it and it was just like oh my go and I think I honestly have listened to Ekko I think four times now oh my gosh well
41:42
it is it is it did it did kind of cross over into the I mean I have had adult book clubs read the book so um I mean
41:49
and I've had that was some of my other books as well so they're not always just you know once you hit that high school
41:55
age you're basically in the adult real yeah true right yeah but it is it is always like a pleasure to like just read
42:01
through your stuff and the details and the and the little things and the sounds and like you said you just really the
42:07
attention to details that are on your books I really um as not just you know a friend but as a just a fan like I really
42:13
appreciate that stuff and it's really cool and um and I really appreciate your time and you know everybody listening I
42:21
just want to encourage you to um you know go out and listen to these stories and understand you're the author of your
42:27
story of your life you can really kind of create a life that you are can look back at that somebody else will look at
42:32
and go like how did you do it and I think a lot of times for some of us we feel lost and invisible and we're
42:38
looking for somebody to see us and um something as simple as a book could be something like that that could be that
42:43
Saving Grace for you and uh become that life rope that you're looking for to
42:48
kind of pull you up and certainly um it's great storytellers like Pam that could help us and you know um as weird
42:55
as that sounds that a book can save life I truly believe it does you know um I know for me as a lonely kid um I found
43:04
best friends in books that um got me through some of the roughest stuff so um but please make sure that you're sharing
43:10
this podcast with other people there's lots of people out there that need to hear these types of things maybe you're an aspiring author or maybe just
43:16
somebody that's kind of like struggling in life to see that you can create stuff that uh is just amazing and we're all
43:22
great storytellers so I I just really appreciate that and well it's wonderful to be here and one
43:28
of the greatest um the one of the funnest things about my job is that occasionally I do get out of my cave
43:34
here and I get to go to conferences and I get to meet people like you I appreciate that thank you yeah yeah well
43:41
I'm wonder I I'm super happy to call you a friend and as you know if you ever need anything just let me know um I
43:48
appreciate you and the book that you uh you help me it it comes out I need to send you um like the what an actual
43:54
final copy looked like it'll be out I think we're pushing a little bit because I have some speaking engagements coming
44:00
up that um we're kind of saving it for but um yeah it's uh it turned out really
44:05
great and I I really um I can't tell you how much I appreciate that nudge because you kind of lit a spark of hope in me
44:12
that um really encouraged me to write what I want to write and I tell my wife
44:17
all the time I'm like I feel like this is what I've always been meant to write like and a I'm so glad yeah so I
44:25
appreciate that thank you so much you really uh you have a solid piece of my heart for a long time thanks that's so
44:32
nice you made my day yeah well thank you so much uh enjoy your time with your granddaughter and and uh yeah I
44:39
appreciate your time and um guys again uh this is beyond hope Project Share this let everybody know what's going on
44:45
um go out pick up Pam's books and read their books and share them and um just
44:51
get sucked into the magic of them because it's awesome so thank you so much have a wonderful day we hope this
44:56
really helped you power [Music]