Finding Beauty in the Ashes with Shelly Edwards Jorgensen

Shelly Edwards Jorgensen, author of the memoir "Beautiful Ashes", joins me for a conversation about surviving domestic violence, sexual assault, and homicide.  We also discuss the flaws in the criminal justice system that often re-traumatizes victims and in Shelly's case, did not actively protect her.

To find Shelly's memoir, go to her website, www.beautifulashesmemoir.com. 

Transcript

0:00

Hello, and welcome back to the grief jails podcast. I'm your host, Amanda. Kernaghan from remember grants, a small business dedicated to helping you support those in your life. Experiencing grief. I hope you'll consider sending someone a personalized card or a grief support box shipping within the us is always free. And we treat each order with special care paying attention to every detail. Today on the podcast, we'll be talking about topics such as domestic violence, sexual assault, and homicide. So please take care of yourself. If these are difficult topics for you. Our guest Shelley Edwards Jorgensen is the author of the memoir beautiful ashes. A book you'll undoubtedly want to read after hearing about her incredibly complex and long history with grief and loss let's take a lesson

Shelly: 0:45

I guess for starters, I grew up in domestic violence. And so my loss starts early. You lose a lot, actually, in the process of being a victim of domestic violence as a kid, as an adult, as in any part of your life. So, I mean, there, there's a loss there too. And that kind of environment sets you up to become victimized in other ways, which creates more loss, but I think the thing that would be most poignant to talk about with this group is that when I was 15, my dad, who was a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde alcoholic, ended up murdering my mother and burning our house down. And so essentially I lost Everything in that moment, and that was actually 38 years ago on the 14th of October. Was the 38th year anniversary and I don't break your neck doing the math. I'm 53 now, so it, it's been a long path to healing because there, there was that along with all other kinds of loss and trauma along the way. Because even after that happened, things got worse and I lost more and more and more. Because of what else was going on surrounding all of that chaos in my life. And so I had to find a path to healing, but it took me a very long time to do that. oN paper, you would have thought that everything was okay for me. I managed. My dad went to prison my senior year. I was a sophomore when this happened. He went to prison my senior year. My sister and I had to live with him, but essentially, then we found ourselves to be orphans after he went to prison

Mandy: 2:34

I'm surprised that you were still living with him after this happened. Was it? Was he not arrested at that

Shelly: 2:41

time? Well, that's the whole thing. I mean, that's one reason why I wrote my memoir is that it's the story. There's so many pieces of this story that are absolutely mind blowing. So on October 14th, if you lived in Detroit in 1985, you would have watched on the 11 o'clock news, my house on fire, literally video footage, them basically saying that it's arson. They said suspicious fire. So they already knew it was an arson. And a dead 50 year old woman. Okay. My dad was not arrested until February. Wow. And my sister and I were living with him after that. And we lived with him until his trial. Well, we both kind of removed ourselves from living with him, but we would have been living with him until his trial, which was in February of my senior year. So, 2 and a half years later, and, you know, I had to testify as a star witness for the prosecution and then go home with my dad. So, the number of things that went on in that time period are just mind blowing, especially if you want to talk about loss. I mean, the same year that my, my mother was murdered, three months before that, I was raped and four months after I was raped and by different people, so I, you know, so loss upon loss upon loss. I mean, there's just so many things and then other people after my dad went to jail were taking from us and stealing. And I mean, it's just. It's a mind blowing story. And so there was so much loss. It's, I can't even quantify it in one event. It's, it was every time I felt like I was staggering to my feet, the rug got pulled out from under me. But I managed to graduate high school, go on to get my bachelor's degree in engineering, move back to Detroit after college. And start as an engineer for Ford, work my way up into management, went back to school, got my MBA and, you know, own my own home and I'm in my mid thirties. And so on paper, you think everything's hunky Dory, but I was still praying to die every day because I hadn't dealt with everything

Mandy: 5:22

that kind of trauma at that age. I think for any, for any child who loses someone that close to them, regardless of the cause of the loss, it's difficult to process and often like happens throughout many years later. But then when you add in the complexity and the trauma that comes with yours, having it be at the hands of your father, and losing your house and all of your belongings, and your innocence with the sexual assault, and just so many things. I. And. See why you were really struggling, even if it was silently and looked okay on the outside, my heart goes out, goes out to younger you, you know, it's like, you want to reach back to that little girl and, and give her some help. Did you have other extended family helping at the time like grandparents or anyone?

Shelly: 6:16

Well, because my sister and I were living with my, my dad and especially before he was arrested. Yeah. He made it difficult for my, my grandma, my mom's mom, and my aunt to really my, my mom's sister to really kind of intervene or anybody because they started working with the prosecution. And so as soon as he was aware that they were working with the prosecution, he really put a wedge there. And that's the other, the other thing about domestic violence, you know. You're manipulated, you're complacent in it in the sense that you don't know any different and so you don't know not to be controlled by, and it's a parent. So you're a child and so you're dependent on this parent. And so they kind of dictate your behavior and plus you're. I want to say trained to, to respond a certain way from the very beginning. And so, so therefore, you know, even though they were there and if I would have reached out to them, they would have been there for me. But if there's just kind of like this buffer where it wasn't really possible. And so the way that my sister and I coped with that. And when I said, we kind of took ourselves out of the mix is my senior year of high school. I finally moved out with a friend's family. They had moved to California and. So they invited me to come out there and I, I, I took that opportunity to do that because that was a neutral, it wasn't picking sides. It was picking my side, if you will. And my sister did the same thing at the same time, because after my mom died, I had to prevent my dad from killing my sister a couple of times, so it's, it just was a whole nightmare situation. And like you mentioned, you know, we literally lost everything in this fire. The night of the fire, my sister and I both were at basketball practice. Literally all I had were my basketball shoes, my practice jersey, which wasn't mine, and my shorts. That's it.

Mandy: 8:32

Did you lose, like, all photos of your mom and things, like, that connect you to

Shelly: 8:36

your mom? Yeah, everything. The only photos that I have of my mom are in my book. And there's, like, a handful. And I got them from other people. One of them. Was a picture that I salvaged from the fire that I folded and I put in my, because part of it was burned and the back had smoke damage and I had it in my wallet forever. So, if it was the whole picture, it's my sister, my mom, but, in the book, I only have my mom's side of it because the other side is not good. Yeah. So, yeah, we lost everything.

Mandy: 9:17

Wow, it's even hard to know where to go with this because there's just so much there. So you, okay, you were able to accomplish all of these things. From a societal perspective, right? You have a degree, you are living on your own, you're independent, you've made it to adulthood, which in and of itself is a wild success, given everything you had been through but still really, really struggling in your early 30s. So what, what made a difference for you or when did things start to turn around? When were you able to find some semblance of healing from all of this?

Shelly: 9:51

Yeah, so when I was in college and it was the summer after my freshman year. And now everybody's going home and I'm there. I have nowhere, I have nowhere to go. And it was just like, finally this reality, cause my dad went to prison my senior year. And I was still living at my friend's house in California. And and so then I went on to college and so it, this was like the, kind of the first time that it just piled on me. And well, plus I was literally homeless. And so I, I just had, I had nothing. And my dad had cut me off financially. He had stolen my college money and Lisa's college money. Cause when my dad went to prison, we had like four houses and six cars. And then all of that got stolen by. People who had power of attorney and my dad. And I mean, so it's just insane. The whole story is, it's crazy. I could go, I can go on and on and on about loss. I mean, pretty much anything that can be lost. I've lost more than once. And so the summer after my freshman year of college, I started to see a counselor and then on and off over the course of the next 15 years, I would go to counseling and then, yeah, I wouldn't have enough money. And then I would, you know, go and then I moved. And so I probably saw maybe three different therapists on and off over the course of that time period. And. Here I find myself in my mid thirties and I'm still praying to die every day. And so finally I, I found a different therapist that did more than talk therapy. And you know, I'm not gonna say talk therapy isn't helpful, but it wasn't enough for me. And I think the other thing that people don't know is that. Therapy is not a one size fits all. It's, it's like a diet, you know, keto works for this person. You know, gluten free works for this person, you know, weight watchers, whatever. It just it's not a one size fits all. And so I started working with a therapist that was equipped with multiple different modalities. And one of them was EMDR. And I was too numb still actually for EMDR because my coping mechanism was to numb and everybody's got a different coping mechanism. And so um, mine was to numb. And I was good at it. So part, part of part of EMDR is you have to identify the feeling that you're having after you're having the visualization. And I'm like yeah, I see or feel nothing. So I started working with this other technique called NET. Or neuroemotional technique. I don't know. Have you heard of it? I haven't heard of that. I've heard of EMDR. Yeah, EMDR is pretty mainstream now. I mean, I know the VA is using it for PTSD and there's a lot. I mean, even Prince Harry says he's used EMDR. So, a lot of people are aware of EMDR. Which, back when I was doing it, not a lot of people were aware of it, because this was in the early 2000s. And NET. NET still is not as well known, even though it's been around just as long. And, to me, it was more effective and life changing. But you have to be consistent and committed to, to the journey. And having a background in engineering, I always like to know how things work. And so, I decided that, you know, I'd been doing all these things for all of these years, having to think I had to know something before I could trust in something. And I decided, okay, I know that this person's had success in doing this. You know, I know this, this, this, and this, and I trust, I trusted my therapist. A friend had been going to this person. I'm like, okay, what do I have to lose? I'm going to be open minded and I'm going to, I'm going to try and I'm going to be open minded on that. And and I also did like cranial sacral work and neurofeedback and, and what else? A couple of sessions of Reiki, but, you know, tried hypnosis and all of those, but really NET was the. The, the linchpin for me and working on my faith in God. I've always been a Christian and I always believed in God, but I had all this trauma. I had all this pain. I had all this distrust in men. Yeah. So how do you trust? hOw do you fully trust? And, that was the other mind shift that I had to do is learn how to trust in God's plan for me. And that's not an easy thing to do. And there's a million and 10 reasons why you don't want to, but to me. The three main ingredients to my healing was number one, believing it was possible. Number two, believing I was worth it. And number three was trusting in God's plan for me. Not 99%, but a hundred percent. Not 99.999%, but 100%. And you have to have the mind shift that. That God has your best interest in mind. And so then you have to take a step back and say, okay, so what is the purpose of life? The purpose of life is for us to learn and to grow, to learn and to grow and to develop the characteristics that Christ has, or God has, which is patience. And compassion and empathy, humility, long suffering, endurance and charity, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You cannot learn any of those skills. Absolutely zero. There is no way to learn empathy or let's just talk about long suffering. You cannot learn long suffering without suffering, right? It's the by definition. You cannot learn that skill, and you can't learn the skill of patience without having to wait. You cannot learn the skill of endurance without being pushed to your limits. You can't learn the skill of or the characteristic of empathy without experiencing things. So when you start seeing that the purpose of life is for this sort of learning you start understanding that that's why, that is why hard things happen. That is why loss happens. And so again, the first question, the natural question when you lose something is why, why is this happening to me? Well, I now know that all adversity is an opportunity for growth. It is upon my choice of whether I'm going to allow that stumbling block to crush me, or if I'm going to convert it into a stepping stone. That's my choice. For 20 years, I allowed it to crush me until I decided, I decided that I was going to do the work and that I was going to trust and I was going to convert it. And it wasn't an overnight thing. And it's never an overnight thing. It's a lifelong pursuit.

Mandy: 17:56

I mean, you can tell it was not an overnight thing based on all of the things that you tried. I mean, you listed out multiple different avenues that you tried. Talk therapy you know, all of these different types of therapy, different Reiki, and all of the things that people say might help to see what worked for you, and I love the comparison of it being like a diet and trying to find which one is the right fit for you, and You know, I just think people don't always know about all the options that are out there, but also just the perseverance that it can take that, you know, the first and the second and the third might not work for you. And you seem to have found some resolve somewhere along the way to, to keep going back and to keep trying different things because you knew that you were worth it and that you could come out on the other side. I find that incredible. I also was just also thinking about how long ago this happened with your mom and I hope that the court system has changed a little since this happened with you, so maybe you can educate us because in my mind, when you said, I started seeing a therapist after my freshman year of college, I was like, but, you know, this, you had this major, multiple major traumas happened to you as a teenager in high school, I would have imagined that the court would have immediately put you were Into services to get you some intensive therapy and and then the other side of that, but I was thinking with the court system was that they would make sure you were protected because this was your father and also the fact that you were going to be testifying and and you were also. Still living with your dad just a little bit mind blowing. So what do you know about the court system and like, is your situation typical of how that might go? Or was that

Shelly: 19:49

unique? Well, unfortunately, CPS talked to my sister and I, which we were both minors at the time of this. And I was still a minor when my dad went to prison. And they talked to us a total of zero times. And so after my book got released last year, I had a lady email me through my website and I connected with her and she just happened to be in Michigan. She's from Northern Michigan. I live in the suburbs of Detroit and she's a retired prosecutor. And after she read. That, like, literally around that, I found out, so I was the last person home before the ensuing event. So I'm the only one that could basically validate or not validate my dad's story about where he was and what he did and what he didn't do. Okay, so, so I knew from the beginning I was the last person home. I was expecting them to talk to me. And by the way, the next morning the next morning after the fire, we're at the police station to be interviewed by the cops. Okay. Now, first of all, what innocent man shows up 12 hours later at the police station with a criminal defense attorney if it's some sort of accidental fire? Okay, and by the way, I, we lived in like a pretty affluent neighborhood, like one of the more affluent neighborhoods of the time. And so, there, there's lots of blunders that go on. And so now we're at the police station. My dad has his attorney meet us there. They put me in an interrogation room and my sister in an interrogation room and my father in an interrogation room. His lawyer was with me and. The, the cops were not even asking me the right questions. I was answering every question that they asked. But you have a dead 50 year old woman and you already know it's arson. Are you not going to ask the children if there's a history of violence? And then after after that day and they started getting letters from my grandmother and my. My aunt and my mom's friends over from over the years, things that they had heard about, you know, now, mind you, my sister and I had been breaking up fights our entire lives, and the police still never came back and talk to us. But then, so now. Less than a week before I have to testify and I'm living in California, my dad calls me and says, Shelly, you need to come home because you have to be in court on Monday. This was like a Tuesday. So he, I flew home on a Friday. Now, mind you, for two and a half years. I had no idea I was going to testify. I've never talked to the police again. I never talked to any attorneys again, other than a deposition for the insurance company, which was a whole different thing. And I I had, I was totally ill prepared to, to even, I didn't even have the mindset that I was going to be testifying. And. Then, I've also been living in denial for two and a half years, wanting to believe my dad's story, even though I knew it wasn't true the moment I knew my mother was missing. So, there's a whole, you know, and I'm a teenager that had just been living my life out in the newspapers, by the way, as well. And so, I fly in on a Friday. My dad says, okay, well, in the morning, you need to go talk to this lawyer to get prepped for court on Monday. He gives me the address. Okay, pre Google, so I'm just like, okay, find the address. I go to this lawyer's office. I have no idea who she is. None. I'm assuming it's for him, but she starts showing me evidence that I never laid eyes on. And recanting these stories to ask me, and then I realize I'm talking to the prosecutor. And she's going to use me to be the star witness to prove premeditated murder. And I'm staying with my dad. And now you're putting me on the stand to recall stories that I didn't know that any human besides me and my sister and my dad knew about. And now I'm going to have to talk about them in open court. In front of your dad. In front of my dad, who I know, you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt now, I'm seeing the bloodstain evidence that I didn't see, and they had taken this picture of this, this huge, probably three foot in diameter bloodstain in our living room that I had walked through moments before I left, and the night of the fire, they took this picture, they went back to get a sample of it, The whole carpet was missing. No, what kind of police are not securing a crime scene? And we're not talking a small room. We're talking like a 20 foot by 20 foot room with carpet. padding missing with furniture in it. So I mean, blunder after blunder after blunder. So, you know, I kind of went off in the weeds on this, but you know, the prosecutor after reading my book is like, well, I hope I never did that. Like sent a child home with, with the parent they're testifying against. You know, she's saying, I hope I didn't do that. She didn't even know.

Mandy: 25:32

You know, I could go off with you on this, like, entire other,, topic of criminal justice and how flawed our system is and the experience of having family members in the criminal justice system and incarcerated. I have my older brother is incarcerated in federal prison also, and it's just an experience that not many people talk about and it's hard to find anyone who has. Some idea of what that feels like and I thought one of the important things that you said is like this desire to want to believe your dad, this to like, it's almost like this dream world where you're like, well, you know, it could be true, right? Because you want it so bad, even though there's like this other part of you that knows unequivocally that. That's not the truth. But yeah, it's a powerful and it's a powerful experience. It's, I, I think the criminal justice system just has, I don't know, I think people don't focus on it because it's not what's in everyone's lives every day. So unless you're involved in a case, you're not invested in changing the system because it doesn't impact you or you don't think it will impact you. And so it just continues in this way that's, that's damaging people and, and perpetuating this. Harm to so many people and we just don't talk

Shelly: 26:49

about it. Just well, I, I just did a podcast. It's called trial trauma and transformation. And that was the first time anyone ever has approached me to even talk remotely about the trauma caused just testifying in court, let alone in a murder trial between your parents. But just the act of testifying period and that alone is, is. Not okay. It's a, it's murder trials in general are re traumatizing. I, every, I'm in a ton of Facebook groups for murder survivors. And, and I tell every single one of them do not even expect to even begin the healing process until after the trial, you can't even begin. And the sad thing is, is it takes three years to come to trial. Like I have a friend That they're just wrapping up the murder trial of her dad who was murdered in July of 2020 and she's in Canada. And then I have another friend that's in Boston. Her sister was murdered in 2020. It still hasn't gone to trial yet. And the system re traumatizes you, and that's a whole nother, that's a, like you said, it's a whole nother ballgame. But, and you, you know, you asked, I hope that things have gotten better. Well, I've also had two social workers tell me that the reason why I didn't get assistance is because of my demographic. And one of them was just as recent as Last month told me that and she's still an active social worker for CPS and she said that she goes, it goes both ways. If you're, if you're poor, then you're, you're over criticized. You're over manipulated, I guess, with the system. And then if you're not, then you're completely blown off. Because they're assuming that somebody else is going to pick up the ball, right? And

Mandy: 28:57

I have no experience with domestic violence, so I don't know what I'm talking about in this space. But I would imagine that for those who are more affluent, when domestic violence is happening, your lease, it's probably harder to get arrest, get an arrest, get like someone to be incarcerated quickly. Probably because I think in the, in the other demographic, the police are much more quick too. Make assumptions or I mean, I guess they're making assumptions both ways. But like, I think in the affluent community, it's more of people assume that you're a nice person just because you have money,

Shelly: 29:32

which is yeah, it's not accurate at all. And, and, and, yeah, the, the domestic violence the laws around that are just, just absolutely crazy and not they're not effective at all. And it's, and it's a very, very, very. Dynamic case by case situation, and it's complicated, you know unless you're in it, you don't understand it because everyone sees the result of the boiling water. Well, when the frog gets in the water, the water wasn't boiling, and so it's, it's really the case of over time, the heat continues to rise and. You know, it's really easy to armchair quarterback things and say, well, if this happened, this happened, well, you're not in it and it's a, it's a completely different ball game, but in everybody's situation is completely different. And the way that it transpires is completely different, you know, women in, in domestic violence, they, you know, if you're talking about loss, they lose themselves. And, and then they have to grieve that loss too. They, they lose, no one ever leaves domestic violence, you escape it. And, and so so there's a lot of different things just in life in general that that you end up grieving, you know, you're you can grieve the loss of a loved one, the loss of a pet. You know there, there's a whole Facebook group just on people who have lost their homes to fire. That's a grief. That's, that's a major loss. Sexual assault, that's a loss, you know, even divorce, that's a loss, you know, for both the adults and the children involved. So loss is a major part of, of life. And we, you have to, you have to give yourself enough grace to to grieve and there is no right or wrong way to do it. And I mean, the thing is, the thing that I learned was to not get stuck with the why. You know, I, I started saying before is, you can ask the question, but just don't get stuck there except that the answer is because you need to learn something. So convert that question of why after you've, you know, sat there with it a little, I mean, a short period don't dwell because that's where depression and all of those other longterm problems start start asking the question, what, what, and how, what am I supposed to be learning? And how do I use that knowledge to help myself and others? Because we're here together. We're all unique individuals. We're all going to experience the loss, even the same loss different ways because we're unique and we are here. I always say life is a team sport. We're here for each other. And another powerful part of. The healing journey is, you know, when you feel like you've gotten, maybe you're just barely standing up on your feet today, reach out and do something for someone else. That's a powerful tool to help heal yourself. And you know, the two, the, the friend that's trial is in Canada and the other one that I talked about in Boston. I met them about two years ago thinking I'm going to join this trauma group for murder survivors so I can be the thriver helping the newbies because it's such a horrendous journey. I've gained so much from being their friends because it's given me purpose in my own pain because they're at the beginning and I'm 38 years out and I'm saying look guys. I've been there. I know what it feels like it. We have a desperate need to be understood. Well, the only way for somebody to understand you is to experience the pain that you're experiencing. And then when you turn around and you offer your hand. Yes, you're helping them, but it's giving purpose to your own suffering. And so that it's a healing balm that like continues. You continue to heal from doing that, even though you're thriving. There's this. This healing that continues that you didn't even think

Mandy: 34:11

you needed. I love that, you know, because it does give them, it gives people who are new in the experience to see that you have survived all of these years later, and that you have a whole life that is full of many good things and, and then you're right it gives you that reciprocal relationship where you can heal parts that are still there and I, I know that you've written your book and you've mentioned it and I can see it behind you though listeners won't be able to see it. But for me, I also, my memoir is not published yet but I found writing. To be extremely healing in that way also revisiting some of the memories and the experiences to go through it again, but with a new lens of when we're further down that path of healing and being able to look back on that. I found that process to be incredibly healing for myself and I'm just wondering about you and what that writing process was like for you.

Shelly: 35:06

Yeah, I mean it was I actually had to take myself back to therapy, and I was. You know, 10 years of fiber at that point. And but I needed to be able to. Articulate my thoughts and my feelings. The data of this event happened here and here and here is, is not the relevant information. The relevant information is what were you thinking? What were you feeling? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I wanted to make sure that I did that because to me, that's where the value in me telling my story is, Not only what I've learned from it so that maybe you can apply the same principles in your healing journey, but, you know, to articulate what I was feeling so you can be like, see that she knows what I'm thinking. She knows what I'm feeling, you know, and I talked about all the trauma. On a very high level, but I've had gifts along the way to I had miracles along the way. And so heaven is real. And I know that I'm getting long winded here, but I'm going to tell you quickly about my mother never missed a thing in my life. Ever. I was a three sport athlete. So is my sister. My poor mother was at so many Basketball games and softball games and volleyball games and track meets and yada, yada, yada. And so the first basketball game after her funeral, That was about halfway through the game, right before halftime, I stole the ball. Which I did a lot because I was a guard and I, and I did, I had quick hands and I was driving the lane and I hear my mother cheering for me and we weren't at my home gym either. And I looked up and I saw her and I felt her and then I brick the shot, of course, because, because of that. And then her words were Shelly. I love you and everything will be okay. And then I went into the locker room thinking, okay, you're nuts. You're not going to tell a living soul about this. You're 15, you know, shelf it. But I knew that that just happened to me. So that's October. December, I'm at basically one of the biggest malls in suburban Detroit, Christmas shopping, and by myself, I'm miserable, and I'm walking past Baker Shoes. And my mom loved shoes and handbags. So she loved bakers because she was cheap and always bought everything on sale. And so they always had sales. And and so I was walking past and I looked over and I swear, I saw my mother. In Baker shoes. So I curry around this bench and I go into Baker shoes and I get in there and now it's the it's December. There's nobody in the store. Even the workers were in the back. I'm like, okay, Shelly, you're losing your mind. Good thing you're by yourself and you didn't have to corral someone else to come in here with you. Hopefully no one saw you like running around this bench. So now I'm walking out. The same sensation washes over me. My mother's voice again, Shelly, I love you and everything's going to be okay. Okay, Shelly. I'm thinking to myself, that's twice. Still, I will tell him not a living soul because, you know, I, I'm clearly losing my mind. So fast forward about another month. By this time, my dad had rented the house that was behind our house on the hill. So now I'm looking down on my house has burned, burned out. My dad is sending me with a key in the dark in Detroit, by the way, in the dark at night to go get canned goods that weren't destroyed in the basement. By myself. So I there's no need for me to ever go to a haunted house. So so and I'm, I'm having these reoccurring nightmares because I was the last one home. I left my mom. I felt responsible, yada, yada. So I'm now I'm laying on my side, try not sleeping. And I'm laying on my left side with my back to the door. And the next thing you know, this night, and I just was just overwhelmed with grief this night, and the door, the, the light starts, my room starts getting light, and I'm thinking, oh, my sister's opening the door, so I roll over, there's my mom, right? My room is filled with light. I feel her. I hear her. She says, Shelly, I love you and everything will be okay. And then she is gone now. Mind you, this is before the second rape. This is before the vultures came in. This is before. My dad's trial is before all of that. It's before the next 10 years of hell. So that was what she was telling me. That was the only thing she could tell me was that she loved me and that everything would be okay. And so I held on to that and that was enough for me to keep going. And so I've had many miracles like that throughout my life and I, they're compensatory gifts. For how you choose to deal with things, you receive blessings, I mean, you can't, you don't receive blessings that you're expecting to receive, you receive blessings that you're not expecting to receive and or demand that you deserve, you know, but I, I am testifying as a witness that heaven is real, it exists, it exists. And, and your loved ones that have passed are still a part of your life on a daily basis. I know this because of further experiences that I've had, but and I'll just leave it at that, but they're part of your life. They are not missing you like you are missing them because they know what's going on with you and they're helping you where they can and in the abilities that they can. So don't think my mother has not missed any event my entire life. She was at my high school graduation. She was at my college graduation. She was at my wedding. She was, she was at those events and it's the same is true for everyone.

Mandy: 41:45

Well, I love that. I love the concept and the stories behind it. I also have similar experiences where things happen that don't have any other explanation. And you think like, am I losing it? But I, I agree. I think it's such an important message to tell people who are really struggling right now and wondering if there is anything else out there. so I so appreciate your entire journey of everything you've been through is incredibly inspiring I know the name of your book is Beautiful Ashes. I'm assuming people can find it wherever books are sold, but where can people find you and connect with you?

Shelly: 42:26

Yeah, you can find Beautiful Ashes wherever books are sold. My name's Shelly Edwards Jorgensen. There's several Beautiful Ashes, a couple of romance novels. Mine is not a romance novel. Mine, mine is a, is a gray cover with my little four year old picture on the front and flames, but. yoU can go to my website, beautiful ashes memoir. If you follow me on social media, I do try to post an inspirational quote with the things that I've learned. I have hundreds out there already. And the only thing that you'll see if you follow me on Facebook or Instagram is inspirational quotes with the things that I've learned about those things. I'll post podcasts that I've been on and I post book events that I'm going to be at. Other than that, you're not going to get a bunch of spam, I guess I'll call it. And then I do have links to my book. It's an ebook and audio book. I do come to book clubs too. So if you have a book club just email me. At beautifulashesmemoir at gmail. com and if you have a book club, we can make arrangements for a Zoom book club. I've done them all over the country now.

43:42

Shelley story is from what we heard today, long winding and emotionally complex. We're really only able to scratch the surface of it here together. I really encourage everyone to pick up her book, beautiful ashes, to learn more about her and support her continued success as a survivor. Thank you so much for listening, please make sure you subscribe. Share this episode with anyone who could benefit from it and as always visit, remember grams. Anytime you need to send a little love to someone who is grieving. Thank you and have a wonderful day