No One Escapes It. On Grief, Resilience, and Signs with Dr. Barbara Hopkinson

Joined by Dr. Barbara Hopkinson, founder of A Butterfly's Journey, a nonprofit for resilience after loss, certified advanced Grief Recovery Method Specialist, speaker and author- we discuss her long winding story of loss from her parents to two babies and later her 21-year-old son followed by her second husband. Her grief took her to the brink of taking her own life, a brink she is grateful she came back from to go on and see her grandchildren born and growing happily.

Barbara is author of a memoir titled “A Butterfly’s Journey… Healing Grief After the Loss of a Child”, and the first in a series of photo books “Faces of Resilience”, as well as co-author of 8 other books. Barbara is a member of IAOTP, LOANI, and GSFE (Global Society of Female Entrepreneurs).

To find or connect with Barbara, visit her website- http://abutterflysjourney.org 
or Contact her for a free 30 minute call:  +1 617-410-6309  You can reach her by email- info@abutterflysjourney.org 

Transcript

0:01

Hello, and welcome back to the grief channels podcast. I am your host, Amanda. Kernaghan from remember grams. A small business dedicated to helping you support those in your life. Experiencing grief. I hope you'll consider sending someone a personalized card or a grief support box. Shipping within the U S as always free. And we treat each order with special care paying attention to every detail. This'll be the first episode releasing in the new year, a week later than I had intended. My house has been full of COVID around the holidays. And like so many of us learn to do when we are in grief, learning to extend grace to ourselves. It is a lesson that I try to keep with me for general life. And recognizing that sometimes things. Are hard and the answer can be to rest rather than to push through. That said a new year often brings the energy of fresh starts and new ambitious goals. And I just want to remind everyone that it's okay. If your goal this year is just to find more peace in your life. I remember the first new years after my mom died. And even though it isn't a big holiday, like Christmas is in our family. I remember there was something daunting about entering a year that she had never lived in never breathed in. It wasn't my most happy new year full of incredible resolutions, but it was a quiet one and one that I worked through and went on to find all sorts of blessings waiting for me in that year ahead. Whether your holidays and new year were happy or extraordinarily difficult or some confusing mixture of the two. I'm so happy that you're here. And in today's episode, I think. It will be a reminder of the good things that can await us on the other side of immense tragedy. When we make the sometimes difficult choice. To stay and to Wade through the pain. Today's guest is no stranger to loss. She's lost several children, a husband, and her vision in one eye. But the things she's gone on to achieve and their perspective she's gained and incorporated into her life is proof that we can go on, even when it's so hard. Here to share her story is Dr. Barbara Hopkinson. Founder of a butterfly's journey, a nonprofit for resilience after loss, as well as the compassionate friends of greater Newburyport, Massachusetts. Which is part of the largest recovery organization in the world, supporting families after a child dies. In addition to these incredible organizations, she's also certified as a specialist in the grief recovery method. Uh, speaker and an author. I hope you'll enjoy listening to her story. Let's take a listen.

Barbara: 2:40

Well, my name is Barbara Hopkinson. I live north of Boston and I spent probably 30 years in this international technology software industry and 10 years with IBM. And during that time, I lost both parents. I lost three of my four children. And I lost my second husband. And a little bit later on, I actually fell, I was swimming in a triathlon with my niece and in preparing for that at the gym, I actually fell and detached my retina. And that caused me to lose the sight in one eye. So because of all the loss I, especially my 21 year old, because it was my children were my 21 year old. Brent died in a motorcycle accident on Arizona State University. And he had been to Army ROTC high school and college. He was on his way just about to get into the, as an army pilot. He had already passed his written aviation test. And so that was a really sudden shock. Before that, I had lost two babies. A miscarriage and a full term stillborn Robbie. So, you know, all of that was very upsetting, but the, losing the 21 year old just totally rocked our lives. So I my 30 year marriage fell apart a year after our son died. And I had, my other son was 19 at the time when, when Brent died at 21, Brad, and he's still with us, thank God. Yes. And it was really tough on him, but he now has two children and is a great chef. He went to Johnson and Wales and he owns his own restaurant in this great little community town outside of, you know, kind of a Long suburb of Boston, Barrier Island. Anyway. So, but when that happened the one, two punch of all of that I did attempt suicide and hit bottom, but it became a turning point for me. And I instinctively knew that helping others would help me heal. And luckily I called my sister and got the heck out of, I was, you know, a cup of monoxide and pull my, it was a trigger. Something happened one day and it was a trigger. And I just realized that I had really been already thinking about retirement and grandchildren. And everything changed because my marriage fell apart. You know, my children, my son, my oldest son was gone. The one who was crazy about kids. And it just, It just went on. And so I pulled into the garage and just shut the door and was serious about it. But luckily, it gave me a few minutes to think. And I realized I couldn't do that to my remaining son, Brad. And thank God. I mean, he's got two wonderful children now. And but anyway. So I, I started within a year, I started my, founded my first non profit, which was a local chapter of the Compassionate Friends USA, a national organization, and it's one of New Report Mass, and so I ran that for 20 years. I just turned it over to somebody else this past summer, and about 10 years in, I wanted to do more. I also released, a memoir, and so I started that in 2003. I released a memoir in 2013, and started another non profit called The Butterfly's Journey for More. General grief, because that support group was for families that lost a child, grandchild, or sibling. And and when I started A Butterfly's Journey and then turned that into a non profit, but for more general grief. And that has three main components. It's got a free online resource center. I've got an advanced certification to teach grief recovery method classes. I do that with any, any place. over, over Zoom with anybody that can speak English, basically. And that's the only evidence based methodology in the world for grief. And I do it mostly one on one. It's a seven week class, so it's finite and action based. It's complimentary to support groups of therapy. But anyway, and then the third thing that my nonprofit focuses on is called Faces of Resilience. So I actually do photo shoots. At grief related events where we encourage open expression around grief. So a lot of times people especially if they've lost a child or some difficult, losses with stigma, like suicide and overdose and things like that. It's very difficult for them. People run from them, right? And they just don't want to talk about it. And people hate to talk about grief anyway. So what the photo shoots do is we encourage them to express themselves. And when they. whatever phrase they want to say that's special to them or between them and their loved one, I write it on their skin with a washable marker. And then we take a professional photo and we professionally edit it and send it to them. So it's very cathartic and visceral for them to do it. And then it's a catalyst for them to talk about their grief when they get the photo with their family and friends, which is probably the most healing thing you can do. That's incredible.

Mandy: 7:04

And I haven't heard about that. So yeah, I love learning about that. It's definitely a resource I'd love to share with other people. And I'm sure people listening to the podcast will be super interested in that. So

Barbara: 7:15

yeah, well, there's a, there's a book. So my memoir is also called the butterflies journey, healing grief after the loss of a child. But then I have a photo book called faces of resilience. With all different sorts of grief and, you know, it's just first names of people that we use, but it's, it's been very well received and I've done it all over the country at several national conferences, like brief parents of the USA and the compassionate friends. I've done it. We just did one a couple of weeks ago at an organization called sad OD, which is support after death to overdose and. We've done it at, you know, overcoming addiction, vigils on grief cruises all over the country, Canada, the Caribbean, London. I've got phrases in 12 languages. And I really want to take that more international and do themed books related to all these photos, but yeah, that's my passion. Wow. I

Mandy: 8:01

mean, what an incredible journey. But if we can go back, I know that's okay. There's a lot to talk about. Statistically, I know I've heard, and I don't know the actual statistics that losing a child is. Often a catalyst for divorce that many partners and married couples have difficulty navigating the grief of losing a child. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Barbara: 8:29

Yeah, I'm not sure what the stats are either. And I think some of them are a little off because I know some people say, you know what, that was probably had issues in the marriage anyway. And mine did as well. We had separated a couple of times and it was just a catalyst to finish it off, but it wasn't the whole cause. But I think it's a fairly high percentage taking that into account, like maybe 70. I mean, I don't, I don't really know what it is. But the I think in my experience and especially working with so many couples that have lost children in addition to my own experience, people either get very close together. And really support each other. Well, or they split apart because they grieve very differently. My ex and I grieved extremely differently. I mean, we're very different personalities anyway, but we just went opposite directions in terms of our grief and and that was tough. That was tough to navigate. And, you know, he kind of moved on to other pastures.

Mandy: 9:25

So, yeah, what kind of advice do you give couples who are in that

Barbara: 9:30

scenario? First of all, not to expect each other to grieve the same and to give each other space and to understand you're going to grieve differently. And it's, it's very, it's tough. I mean, especially a loss that traumatic because you don't expect your children to die before you. It's just not the natural order of things. And so it's. I would just say you really to be just some understanding and some patience and not expect them to just interpret or know what you're, what you're feeling or going through, because each of your relationships with your child or anybody for that matter is individual. I mean, even pets, right? I mean, I've had a mother that's, that has lost her, her dog, but her dog was really like her child. You know, so that's, it's just, it's unique to each person and each person grieves in their own unique way and in their own timeframe. There are no rules around this stuff. There's no, there's no deadlines. It is what it is. You do it, it makes, it helps if you work at it, you know, if you don't isolate and you actually go and do things. to try to help yourself. You know, I can go into a bunch of suggestions if you want me to, but

Mandy: 10:40

for you after the loss of your son and getting to that really low point in your life, where you considered ending your own life after that point, what helped you move through your grief? And you know, I know you mentioned that you started a foundation, but like, what happened in the, in between, between those two things and how did you get to the place where you felt like you were ready to start something for other people?

Barbara: 11:03

I think luckily, I had an instinct that helping others would help me heal. And so, you know, after the, the initial phase of literally, hardly being able to get out of bed, and just, I mean, just to get up and make coffee or any sort of a meal was a real effort. But I did go back to work after a couple of weeks, which was too early, but it did force me out, you know, into the world, and I did have supportive family and friends, which helped a lot because isolation is, is tough. It's really tough on you. But I ended up doing so, so I went out and actually searched for looked up other brief parents. And then we talked about starting this group and and I got some help with a couple of people and I, we considered doing it on our own. But then someone told me about the compassionate friends that focuses on that. And so I talked to the regional director and he came out and met with me and we decided to do that because they would have a lot more resource. So that took, you know, took a while to focus and get all that going. And then we, we, we actually had our first meeting. Within a week of the first year of my son's death. So that was kind of the target and yeah, that's unusual. It goes that fast, but I'm a doer. So to me, it helps me to jump in and do something about it, you know and then I was working for IBM and a really high pressure job. We didn't talk about things like spirituality. I didn't even know what the word meant. but that was such a shock to me that not only did I. Tell I was in a really high pressure job, but I requested to move. And my boss was resistant at the time, but I said to them, look, the worst thing that could happen to me has, so you therefore have no power over me anymore. I don't care about your deadlines and your quotas, let me out of this job or I'll just leave the company. And which was crazy, you know, financially at the time, but I would've done it. But anyway, we did. And then I had one of the best jobs I ever had in a very understanding boss, but., I started on this exploration and the butterfly's journey really to me means I was on a journey to figure out whether or not my son's spirit continued. And so I got into all kinds of exploration and reading about spirituality and a lot of the afterlife stuff and things like that. And that helped me, that helped me a lot. And I finally proved to myself that absolutely did his spirit continue and all of our spirits continue. And I've gotten some signs that were pretty irrefutable. So that all helped. I, you know, I did things like I tried energy healing. I had no idea what energy healing was, but I've got a friend who's a shaman who explained it to me. And I tried it and it helped a lot. And so then I tried every form of energy healing you could think of. You know, I did, I did shamanic massage and reflexology and acupuncture and polarity and Reiki and, you know, whatever. You know, I think it's really important to keep an open mind and keep trying things because you never know what's going to help. And that stuff helped. Journaling helped tremendously. Walking in nature helped. You know, just being very deliberate about trying to do that. And what I tell people is one of the biggest turning points for me was when I finally got to the point where I could think of my son's loss as a gift. I'm sorry, but his life as a gift, not just a loss. Because if I, when I thought about it and said, okay, if I had two choices, I either never get, never have known him, or get to do it all over again, what would I do? And I would absolutely do it all over again, as hard as it was. Because, you know, the 21 years I had with him was such a gift, you know, now when I think of him, I don't think of the loss, I think of all the, you know, mother son trips we did and he talked me into a bungee jump once, we did front seats of roller coasters all day one day, you know, it was an adrenaline jockey. So it

Mandy: 14:47

was nice. Oh, wow. Yeah. What else can you tell me about him? I love to hear about people and like their personalities, but bungee jumping is terrifying. So that tells me a little bit about him.

Barbara: 14:59

Yeah, he was, he was really he was very bright and he was mature for his age and very independent. And so his name was Brent, Brent Robert DeLibro. And he, Oh, God, he was asking so many questions, but you can talk and was kind of a challenge. He just make up stories like, like, we'd be in a movie and he was trying to talk to these kids out of some candy because I wouldn't buy him candy. I was in 1 of those. No sugar phases. He, he, they just said, well, if you can tell me, he told him he had already seen the movie. He knew the story. story. And they said, well, if you can do that, you know, I'll, I'll give you some of my candy. And he just made it up, you know, made it up on the fly. And then he, he pushed me to put him on a plane by himself at age 11 to go visit. I had sent him to visit my cousin in Florida, one of my cousins in Florida, cause he was dying to go do something on his own. And then he went off, he came home from, I think his first year in high school, you know, flunk in science, and he was way too bright for that. And we were on his case, and he said, I want to be a pilot, I want to go to military high school. And so we went looking for places, and he found the oldest, starkest one he could find. He moved out at 15, and went to New York Military Academy, in Cornwall and Hudson, New York. And I remember the first week. He called because they wouldn't let him call for a week. Right. And he called and he said something. I had done 300 pushups because I knew he was testing the boundaries with them. And every time he tested a boundary, they made him do a whole bunch of pushups and he loved it. He just he ended up being third captain chief of staff got a full scholarship out to Arizona State University. He could have gotten into West Point, but by then he was already near West Point for 3 years and he was. Board with that, he went out to Arizona, loved it out there, met a woman he was getting engaged to, and she's a sweetheart, Laura, and and then he did, he got through ASU, and he had already passed his written aviation test, and he was just about to go to boot camp after his junior year in college. And and he would have committed eight years to the army to get, be trained as a Comancheira. He wanted to be a Comancheira Apache jet powered helicopter pilot. So he was driven. He was, you know, he was really

Mandy: 17:01

self motivated. And very independent.

Barbara: 17:03

Yeah, very, very independent. Yeah. I mean, he'd walk in, he could walk in, he's the kind of kid that at 16, he'd walk in, our house with adult friends, you know, and offer them a drink. Or, you know, he'd be as comfortable around a CEO as he was around one of his buddies. He's just an unusual. I think maybe I think a lot of the kids are like that when they die young. It's almost like their subconscious knows it's going to happen and they mature and they fit a lot into their life. And he did that. And we were both pretty strong willed. So it was pretty funny, but he was great. No, I

Mandy: 17:35

believe that too. I believe I believe that there, there is something subconsciously that people who die young sometimes do fit a little bit more into their lives

Barbara: 17:45

than. Yeah. And it had a big impact of course on his brother that was really tough on him and it left him to be an only child because he lost his older and his younger brother, but he gained a lot of confidence that he went to Johnson and Wales. Which is one of the top cooking schools in the country. And then after he graduated he got an opportunity to buy a small restaurant. And he did. And then he really flourished with his own confidence and stuff. And because, you know, he was more of a creative, hands on sort of a kid. And and so now he owns his own, a bigger restaurant, a seafood restaurant. Yeah. So it's, anyway, it's great. Was

Mandy: 18:17

he living at home with you when this happened or was he already on his own?

Barbara: 18:22

No, he was 19. He had just graduated high school. So this happened. This literally happened. All right. So the week that Brent died, this is crazy. All right. So we got the call on Friday morning that he had had an accident. I was on a business trip for IBM in New Jersey. My ex husband got the call. They couldn't reach me because I was in a brick building that my cell phone wasn't working. And so it took them four hours to track me down. Because I had been with a friend the night before my boss knew where I was kind of thing visiting a customer. So my son, Brad had just come home from his overnight senior prom, and happened to stop in because they had breakfast across the street, and saw his father packing. So they got on a plane, and when I, when they finally got through to me the plane was, they were just about to close the door on their flight to Arizona. And so I ran out and ran to Newark airport, had all kinds of problems getting through what I needed to do to get to basically a friend routed them through. Newark, and I met them at Newark Airport, and we flew to Arizona together, and we didn't know it but while we were in the air they pronounced Brent brain dead, again, he had promised us he wouldn't get on a motorcycle without a helmet there's no helmet law out there but some kid, you know, came and they switched vehicles and. You know, they think you're invincible at 21 and his brain swelled and choked out his brainstem. So we flew out there and that was Friday. We took him off life support on Saturday. We went through his, his, he was sharing a house with two other guys. We went through his house and his girlfriend's house with all this stuff on Sunday, on Monday. They had a a service and a funeral at the chapel on campus on Tuesday. We flew home from Arizona on Wednesday. His body was embalmed and flew home on Thursday. Brad graduated high school. Oh, no. And Friday and Saturday was Brent's wake wake and funeral. So that whole week it was, it was lunacy. It was lunacy. Yeah. And for Brad. Yeah. Right. But we had, and we had a lot of really good theater friends and we had about 18 of us all cheering for him at the, at his graduation, and had a little party back at the house afterwards, but everybody knew the situation but we Made the best of it, but it was tough. It was absolutely. And then he actually went, he went off to college a couple of months later and he did flunk out of his first year in college, but he got back in and finished, but because of grief. And then he brought, we had his brother's car shipped home and he was driving that and his car got stolen and totally stripped at college, on the college campus, even though it was locked, there was nothing. It took the engine, it took everything. It was nothing except a frame left. And so that was like a violation of his brother's. Car as well. So he had a really tough year that year. Wow. But he's, he's been amazing now four and a six year old and they're awesome.

Mandy: 21:17

Yeah, I imagine for you as a mom to you know you're in such deep grief, you've lost your child and, but then you still have your other child there at home with you and like trying to navigate his grief and And parents,

Barbara: 21:32

a lot of kids do, you know, and his friends were, you know, good and around for a month or two, like our friends are, and then everybody goes on with their lives, you know? And it was, it was tough for them. He had, he had a hard time and I worried about him, and, you know, tried to make him go to counseling. I think he went twice. I was the only one was in therapy, but, you know, just part of what, what happens but anyway, yeah, we did talk about it a lot and we still, we still do occasionally, you know, and that's, that's, that's all been. helpful. And then I got married a second time to Jim and he was awesome. He was a great stepdad to, to Brad and did so many things to help him with his restaurant and everything. And he had three adult kids. So I have three adult stepkids girls, the oldest and she's not married, but the two boys are, and they each one's got a little girl and the other one's got two boys. So I've got five grandchildren from age one to six. So, so that's really that's the loves of my life, but I'm very close to somebody, but we were married. Almost 12 years. And then he died on his way to work. We don't make a heart attack. Just bam. We had tickets for a show that night and we were, it was a really good, that was a really good marriage. And it just you just never know, right. You just on his way to work and it's gone. Yeah. So,

Mandy: 22:49

so both of you're like, yeah. So these like huge losses in your life have been sudden and unexpected.

Barbara: 22:56

Yeah. Yeah, they were. And actually both my parents were somewhat, somewhat sudden to come to think of it. Yeah. I mean, this is right. This is good and bad both ways, right? Because you don't really want somebody going through a lot of suffering either. And people around them, it's hard on them as well. And it's not some people say, well, at least you had time to, you know, to get used to it. I don't think you do. I don't think it's real until it happens. You know so it affects everybody when it happens, regardless of whether it's long or short, nobody escapes it. Right. Right. Everybody in the world has some sort of grief.

Mandy: 23:31

no one escapes it. And I think what you said is you just never know. I mean, that's like how I live my life now, because you just don't, you and for me, like most of my loss has been sudden also. And so very conscious of time is finite and we don't know how much we have and you know what's gonna happen. Right. Yeah. Trying to like live the life that you wanna live

Barbara: 23:53

now, right? Yep. Absolutely. And I'll keep putting things off. Oh, there's a great song about that. Until you can't, I think it's either Luke Combs or somebody's a country song, but it's until you can. It's fairly recent. It's this year and it's like, oh, it's a really wonderful song because it basically is goes through all these things. You know, you can, you can do that. Like putting things off until you can't. You know, it makes you really think about, yeah, about not, not putting things off. So yeah, no, I treat life very differently than I used to. And what's important.

Mandy: 24:27

And I know you said that you did a lot of spiritual. Work and looking into different, different things and seeing what resonated with you. And you mentioned having different signs over the years. Is there anything you can share with listeners that you, any experience you've had that you would want to share?

Barbara: 24:45

Yeah, and I do think people should do what's comfortable for them, right? That might be religion, it might not be. For me it really wasn't. I grew up Catholic and I believe in God and all that, but I just had pulled away from it. And I tried to get back into it afterwards, but it just didn't work for me. But the kind of the direct connection between me and God and the spirituality did. And again, I learned, I did a lot of reading and research about kind of what happens in spirits continuing. But with my son. There's several things I could mention, but probably one of the most convincing is later on I had a, a friend who is a musician, and she was over here when I think we were just working out because she had actually played at a New Year's Eve party I had, and she's a songwriter as well, but we were, we were just working out like around my, my living room, dining room area. And she asked me about music for the book before I had released it. The first, my first book, the memoir. I said, gee, no, I didn't think of that, but that's kind of an interesting concept. And then she got this feeling and said, I've got to go get my keyboard out of my car. And I watched her channel music. I mean, she did something that she couldn't have made up on the fly because it had too many layers to it. And, and I had a very strong emotional reaction to it. And I didn't know why. And I asked her what, what is that? Where's that coming from? And she looked around the room. She didn't have a med print. She picked out his picture and said, that's where it's coming from. And so later on, I had her. Actually record the video. It's on my website, which is a butterfliesjourney. org and it's possessive, not plural. So it's YS, not IES. And and so it's, it's a, it's a free gift, that one. And and then she did another one later on when I met her for dinner on the 10th anniversary of his death. And there was another one that he had pulled her out of a garden and, and channeled and we had them both recorded. But the even more interesting thing was. She then he figured out that he could talk to her and she understood him. She just had that talent. She wasn't a medium. She didn't. off of those services. But once he did, he'd start giving her messages for me. So there was one time when I went to a wedding in New Jersey and I was, I was renting my house. I live on the ocean up north and I was renting it for the summer and I moved into the other house, but because we were away for the weekend, it was Monday morning. I decided to unpack. I decided to take a walk first. And so I'm on my walk, and on the way back, I get this text from Nancy, and she said, Brent says, be careful going up your front steps, mom. She had never been to this house. And I said, okay, and I came back, and by now I'm used to getting messages from them. And the entire length of the step was cracked. If I had put my weight on it, I would have fallen and gotten hurt. So that again, that's a pretty intangible. She had never been there. It was out of the blue. She just texted me out of the blue. And so I've got a couple of them like that. I could go on for a while.

Mandy: 27:30

I love to hear things like that. I don't know. I know there are people who are skeptical and I think until

Barbara: 27:38

the way right right but there's no way that she knew anything she'd never been to that house she had no idea she didn't even know I was out walking and was about to go back to the steps, you know,

Mandy: 27:47

yeah, I love that. I know I've shared this before so if people have listened to all my episodes they've probably heard this story. So I apologize to anyone who's already heard this but I just want to tell you because you just shared that with me. so much. I, on one, I think it was maybe the 10th anniversary of my mom dying and my brother, who's next youngest to me, him and I decided we were going to have like a FaceTime call and have a toast to our mom because it was the anniversary and he was on vacation with his wife and his kids and he like put them to bed and him and his wife and me and my husband, we all got on this call and we like set a toast to my mom. And at this point, we, my younger brother had died also like a couple of years prior to that. And so we like set our things and then I was like, okay, enjoy your night. You're on vacation. And like five minutes later, he texts me and was like, Mandy, I just pulled out a deck of cards. I had thrown it in my suitcase when we've packed from home because I figured my wife and I can like play cards after the kids go to bed. And so they, they dumped out the cards after we talked on the phone and in the deck of cards was our youngest brothers. High school ID from the year our mom died. It was like, wow. Yeah. It was just so cool. So, you know, that was like my, and they, and they

Barbara: 29:06

knew they had not put it in the deck of cards earlier to store it or anything. He was

Mandy: 29:10

like, I have no idea. Like, is it, have I never opened this deck of cards in the last few years? Maybe, but it was so weird that it was on that day and it was from that year and like, Oh yeah, that's really cool. Yeah. I love to hear about stuff like that.

Barbara: 29:25

Yeah, no, I'm sorry for the loss of your brother and your Yeah, I

Mandy: 29:28

mean, that's why we're all here doing this work, right? You know, you're out doing your work, and we're all just, I think everybody, not everybody, but like one of the ways I think that some people get through it is to put things back in the world to help other people in their own experience, and

Barbara: 29:44

I really think, I mean, again, when I wrote my memoir, it was ten years after my older son died, and the last chapter is about the three most important things I learned. And one of them was about keeping an open mind and trusting your gut for what works for you and not really listening to everybody's advice because they don't really know, you know but to keep an open mind and try things you haven't tried. And then the second thing was helping others helps you heal, because that's, there's something about it and it doesn't have to do with how they died, right, it doesn't have to be related it's just, there's something about helping others, whether it's, People, kids, pets, whatever it is that really is very healing. And the appreciation that you get is healing as well. And then the third thing was, it's all about the love and that's about focusing on those good memories and understanding that their life was a gift to you, not just a loss. So anyway, that's my little,

Mandy: 30:39

I love it. Yeah. I love all the advice that we can give. And yeah, your story and your journey through all of this is incredible.

Barbara: 30:47

It's changed me, but it's also, I mean, I've met, met so many, so many people that have become such close friends that have gone through this tragic kind of loss because they get it. They don't take life for granted anymore, you know, and they, they just. They don't whine. They don't waste time. Like I don't waste time on negativity. I just, if somebody is in one of those conversations, I'll just walk away. You know, it's like, sorry, you're clueless. I just don't, I don't have any patience for negativity and when wasting time on silly. Silly things and, and people whining and things. It's like, yeah, get over it. And there's,

Mandy: 31:22

there's such a power, in shared experience, you know connecting with other people who've been through not, you know, it doesn't have to be the same type of loss even, but people who just get it and understand where you're coming from.

Barbara: 31:35

Right. No, absolutely. And it does, it changes you. It makes you, it makes you realize what's important and what's not. Absolutely. And that's quite a gift. It's a difficult way to receive that gift, but it's quite a gift. I agree.

Mandy: 31:50

So where could people go to find your memoir to learn more about your foundation? What's your website or social media

Barbara: 31:58

handles? Yeah, the, the the website is abutterfliesjourney. org and that's possessive, not plural. And it's the same thing on Facebook and on Instagram. And the and there's also faces of resilience, which is about the photos and there's a photo gallery on the. A butterfly's journey website Amazon has the first book, which is the memoir, a butterfly's journey, healing grief after the loss of a child. The second book was faces of resilience. And I'm part of eight other books, but it's really not worth going through all those. But the Faith Finding Answers in the Heart Volume 2 is one of them that comes to mind right away. But yeah, I probably do more activity on Facebook than the other social media, because that seems to be where most of the people that are, that are interested are. And anyway, so, but besides that website, you could email me at barbara or info at A Butterfly's Journey. The phone number is 617 410 6309. And you know, I do free calls to discuss the brief recovery method classes. I'm happy to spend a half an hour doing that you know, talking to somebody to see whether it's useful for them. And I've done some group classes and I can arrange that, but I, but I usually do one on one. I find it to be the most effective. And then the only other thing I'd say is if somebody wanted to do A photo shoot kind of a thing like a phases of resilience photo shoot at an event. I'm happy to do that too. You know, it's basically just covering expenses. And that's always well received. It's kind of hard to understand it until you see it in action, but it's very well received.

Mandy: 33:33

It sounds like it. I'm part of a couple different events and things like I'm part of a local recovery organization that focuses on fitness for recovery from addiction and they do like an annual event and part of it is remembering people who have been lost to addiction. So yeah, I can imagine something like that would be such a Is that

Barbara: 33:55

how you lost your brother? Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. But, you know, again, an organ friend of mine who is used to be the chairman of the board for compassionate friends now started the organization called Saturday and it's s a d o d. org. And another I heard

Mandy: 34:10

you mention that I actually am not familiar with

Barbara: 34:12

that one. Yeah, that's great. No, it's very good. That's in the space in Massachusetts, but they're actually starting to reach out to other states and stuff now. And I know open to hope. com has got an amazing probably the biggest resource center, I have a resource center on my side too but that one is just got all I mean thousands of resources for grief, which is which is lovely. Yeah, I just met some really just incredible. People and and we're all just trying to help people.

Mandy: 34:39

Yeah. No, I love the project with the photos and everything. It sounds amazing. And you know, like you're offering such great services. So so appreciate your time coming on to talk to everyone. I will include links and like your usernames and everything in the show notes so people can find it

Barbara: 34:57

easily. Just that I do a free half hour call. Because it's the only evidence based methodology in the world. It's been used 40 years on six continents and it was written by a bereaved dad. So it's, it's, it's very effective and it's very different from support or therapy, but it's very complimentary to those,

Mandy: 35:14

yeah. Is there any, any last thing that you want to leave in anyone with them? Some, anything we didn't cover

Barbara: 35:20

together. I think usually when I try to give somebody maybe a little advice at the end, it's, it's really try not to isolate, try to reach out when you're feeling, you know, down and, or get out of the house and, go, find something you like to do or somebody calling a friend or, or a family member or whatever, but also really trust your gut, right? Don't let other people's opinions of what you should do get, right? Too deep into your head. Just trust your gut and just keep an open mind and keep trying stuff because there is no magic bullet here But there is everything that you try will literally help a little and what I tell people is try three different things and then Keep using the one or two that work and drop one and try another You know that kind of thing and don't try something just once try it once twice or three times To see whether or not you think it helps right just just kind of Having some tenacity and some patience and keeping an open mind, and the last thing is, please trust that your loved ones are still with you in spirit, whether you get signs or not. And, you know, depending on there's all kinds of things that affect that. But just trust it. They are absolutely still with you. When you think about it, the law of physics said that nothing ever goes away. It just changes form, right? Maybe from energy to, to matter and back, but it doesn't really disappear. That's the first thing that got me really believing that that could be possible.

Mandy: 36:42

I think your story is such a powerful reminder that things as bad as they are in the moment will get better. And, that your life is worth staying and, there are people who love you. And so you know, pushing through the difficult moments and reaching out for help so that you can get to the better moments

Barbara: 37:01

that are ahead. Yeah. Yeah. It's not fast and it's not easy, but it absolutely is worth it. And I'm happy now and I have five grandkids and. You know, my son and three step kids and their partners and, you know, it's, it's wonderful. And I'm looking forward to the next phase and maybe even, having a partner again, and, you know, we'll just, whatever. So yeah, it's okay. It's, it's, it's good. You can, people can, I know some people say you can't ever recover. Maybe, I mean, it's not like you ever stopped missing them, but absolutely can heal. Yeah. I believe that.

37:36

I hope you enjoyed and took something away from listening to Barbara story. She talked several times about how helping others helped herself and experience that I can also relate to. So for today's journal prompt, write about a time you helped someone and what that experience gave you in return. Or write about how you would like to help others, if you could like always let the writing lead you in whatever direction it takes. Thank you so much for listening, please make sure you subscribe, share this episode with anyone who could benefit from it. And as always. Visit remember grams. Anytime you need to send a little love to someone who is grieving. Thank you and have a wonderful day.