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Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
2024: Ranked #1 Law Podcast
Host: Tyler Owen and Clint McNear discussing topics, issues, and stories within the law enforcement community. TMPA is the voice of Texas Law Enforcement, focused on protecting those who serve. Since 1950, we have been defending the rights and interests of Texas Peace Officers by providing the best legal assistance in the country, effective lobbying at state and local levels, affordable training, and exemplary member support. As the largest law enforcement association in Texas, TMPA is proud to represent 33,000 local, county and state law enforcement officers.
Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
#087- "Rodeo to Cold Cases" with John Galloway
What happens when you combine a passion for law enforcement with a love for rodeo and a stint in plumbing? Meet John Galloway of Fort Worth PD, whose diverse career path is anything but ordinary. From his early years to his role in the Family Violence unit, John shares his journey through law enforcement, balancing academic pursuits and family life.
You don't want to miss this one!
email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
It's such a powerful tool for solving cases where we had nothing in the past. That's primarily what I'm trying to focus on. I haven't found one yet where I go back and I go. Man, those detectives were slacking. The detectives of the past were phenomenal, especially when you think about what they were doing with a phone book and loafers.
Speaker 2:Welcome back. Viewers, watchers, listeners. I'm your host, tyler Owen and Clint McNair. How was the travel down?
Speaker 3:It was smooth. We went via Houston, we went to Harris County to the TTPOA SWAT competition.
Speaker 2:Man and then over here. That competition is amazing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's some studs out there plowing through those obstacle courses, man yeah.
Speaker 2:I went over there last Wednesday or Thursday and you know, kudos, not just kudos to the teams, but kudos to TTPOA. Every time that I thought I mean, think about it right, we've all been at an agency where qualifications are going on or SWAT's going on and you just there's like the breathtaking moment, you're like, oh shit, this dude's shooting down range and man, those guys were on top of it. I think there was 50 teams, I think Some maybe more, maybe less, but for 50 tactical teams to get on a range that Harris County hosted and not have any incidents and I'm not talking about just shooting, but I there's, there was no safety instances while I was there, man, kudos to those guys because they run a tight ship and a really professional, a bunch of guys.
Speaker 3:so I left forney at about six, rolled in about 9 30. They were on the o course and I looked out there and I was like, dude, I may get out, just freaking, go run through the o course. And then I got out of my truck and walked to the back and I was out of breath and I was like, yeah, I'm good, no, I'm good, I don't, I don't leave that they asked me if I wanted to repel with my camera.
Speaker 2:I had, like, I've got this chest thing, uh, this camera, and um, I passed on it. I didn't want to show anybody up, I didn't want to have all these, you know tactical number one, I didn't want to show them up, man repel out of my truck.
Speaker 3:No, no, I can repel out of my truck, were you?
Speaker 1:there at the helicopter park.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that place is a maze. The harris county sheriff's training facility is phenomenal. I had to call in. I got lost and had to call in and they I should have dropped you the pin. I dropped late in the pen knowing that layton is layton and was not going to be able to find it and call one of us cropping because he can't find it. So anyway, man, we've got a special, a special guest on today. Cool thing is is a good friend of mine from East Texas that's been on the on the podcast, john Vance, retired Ranger. John Vance reached out and said hey, I've got a host, I've got a guest idea that I think would be phenomenal. So he passed on your information and man, here we are, john Galloway with Fort Worth PD.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir, welcome. Glad to be here. Thank you for having me. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:How was the stay last night at the illustrious Double Tree?
Speaker 1:Hotel. It was fantastic and unexpected, so thank you all for that.
Speaker 3:I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:It saved me from driving close to four hours to get here this morning.
Speaker 2:Well before I forget if you guys have any podcast guests' ideas, feel free to reach out to us at bluegrit, at tmpaorg. Me or Clint monitor that, as well as John Sarigan, so we'll get that hooked up. And I don't want to say secretary, because she's more than a secretary she's the camera operator, she's the HMFIC that runs this side of things. Shelly can hook you up with getting the hotel reservations and help us out however she can. So reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 3:Before we dive into. I know some of you because I watch you. You haven't clicked like or subscribe, so if you would, where are you going to put it up? Right here, right here, yeah, right here, yeah, right here. Please, like, share, subscribe, hit here, right here, yeah, right here, yeah, right here, please. Please, like, share, subscribe, hit. Whatever you do, I don't know what all you do do whatever it is that you do to subscribe, to subscribe and hit notification so you get notified when they come out 100.
Speaker 2:We, uh, we, we like doing these podcasts. The realization is is this? This is your voice? Uh, we just have the honor of getting behind the microphone and being that voice, so so hit that subscribe button. But, man, john, we dive off in each episode of where you grew up, how you got in law enforcement, who the hell's John? And we'll kick it off from there.
Speaker 1:Well, like I said when I met you, I hear John and I kind of look around J-Dub. J-dub is what I go by J-Dub. Yeah, yeah, so well you know, I grew up very, very young in Corpus. I have a little sister. She was born there, but most of my memories are around Dickinson area.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:You know. So I was in Dickinson for all school, up until high school, and then my dad got a job in the DFW area and we moved to Grapevine.
Speaker 2:Good town.
Speaker 1:It is, but it's considerably different than when I was there. You know, I tell a story about where I raised my horses. 360 goes right over there. Now, matter of fact, when I was going in the military, the old man that I was leasing from the pasture area, he said you know, everybody's got to go. Eminent Domain is taking my land from me. Yep, and sure enough, now it's 360.
Speaker 2:Have you ever heard of the Catfish Hut, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So a good friend of mine, a real close friend of mine I call him Aunt Mitch and we'll dive off into that later on His family owns it Him.
Speaker 1:Aunt Mitch the Hall, yeah, the.
Speaker 2:Hall family owned that. I knew D Call, I went to school with D Call, and so they have now created the Catfish Hut food truck, okay, and so I was kind of helping him kind of promote that a little bit. If you've never eaten Catfish Hut, catfish it is phenomenal, it is, it's great.
Speaker 1:Really good stuff.
Speaker 2:Anyways it's based here in Grapevine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I drive around that town now and hardly all my landmarks are gone. I hardly know my way around anymore, but it's growing like crazy. Graduated from Grapevine High School yeah, in 1989. Because of my financial status at the time, I couldn't go to college, so I went in the military, went in the United States Air Force, did four years there, wanted to see the world and, like a lot of folks I did, I went to Abilene, texas and I stayed there for four years man, four years.
Speaker 1:And President Clinton got elected. There for four years man, four years. And president clinton got elected and uh it it appeared as though there weren't going to be any moves soon. So I was going to be in appling for a while and I decided to get out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's typical military. You said I'd like to go see a foreign country and they sent you to the country yes to the country that's right and and you know I, I know y'all well.
Speaker 1:at least least Clint's a veteran, were you in. No sir, when you first go in, they give you what we call a dream sheet. You know you get to put whatever, and I mean, Abilene wasn't on that, I guess.
Speaker 2:No, it wasn't on there. Japan, germany you know, things just sound phenomenal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, abilene places or ebolen right, and it was foreign to me man, but I did learn to love it though.
Speaker 2:I learned to love that ebolen's a cool town. It's uh, it's not japan, uh, by any means, but it, thank god, it's texas to it. I mean to an extent, but yeah, I wouldn't want to be in ebolen for four years with an author.
Speaker 1:It grows on you, though, and I got to do a lot of hunting and fishing, and that's something that I enjoy, so and there's something about west tex.
Speaker 3:Oh man, they're good, pure gold. Good people, pure gold.
Speaker 1:Yep, and it took me. You know. It's funny you mention that, because it took me a while to I don't know if trust is the right word, but just to realize how good they are and welcome that and learn to appreciate them like I should. So, yeah, but once I did man, everybody out there feels like family, yeah.
Speaker 3:What was your MOS in the Air Force?
Speaker 1:Security police.
Speaker 3:So you went to Lackland.
Speaker 1:Went to Lackland Air Force Base 96th Police Squadron. I started off on the security side, went into the control center there and did a little bit of dabbling with cross you know doing the law enforcement side also. But that was towards the end and I got out after four years.
Speaker 3:What made you go to security forces? Is there any law enforcement history in your family, anybody prior?
Speaker 1:No, my only exposure to law enforcement as a kid was my uncle, who did 36, 38 years at Houston PD Wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a long time.
Speaker 1:Long time and at that time their drop program. I don't think there was a limit to it. So he retired at their normal retirement years and then did a long time in their drop. And then I have a cousin who I'm very, very close with, more like a brother than a cousin. We actually lived together for a while as kids and he became a Houston officer. And he became a Houston officer oh cool. So those are the two guys that I had that I was exposed to, that were law enforcement, but nobody in my immediate family, yep. So when I went and saw the recruiter, that was what was available.
Speaker 3:That's why I went in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it wasn't a burning desire to do it, it was because that's what they had for me and I signed and went in. Both of my grandfathers were world war ii veterans, so that's what kind of inspired me to the military in general.
Speaker 3:but uh, was that security forces time in in le there towards the end of your, your hitch, is that what kind of stored steered you towards law enforcement or not? Right, not really at that point yet eventually.
Speaker 1:Eventually. Eventually Because when I got my discharge, I went out and I didn't know what I wanted to do when I grew up, even though I was 23.
Speaker 3:I'm 52 and don't know what I'm going to do when I grow up. I'm 53, and I know the feeling.
Speaker 1:I know the feeling, but at that time I had a good friend that was right out of high school, had gone into trades and he was plumbing houses and he recruited me to come help and I did that for a long time. We were plumbing houses. Of course, at that time construction in that area South Lake, grapevine it was just booming. What year was this like? Early 90s, 92, 93. It was 93 that I really got involved in the plumbing and I did that for a few years and then realized, you know, I don't want to own my own plumbing company and that's the natural development of it, you know. So what am I going to do? What am I going to do? And one of the things that I forgot to mention is all through high school and the military and all I was rodeoing quite a bit. So at that time I'm plumbing houses, rodeoing, and I I just knew I was going to be a full-time professional rodeo guy.
Speaker 3:What was your, what was your gig in?
Speaker 1:line. I rode bulls until I was about 24 and I looked around.
Speaker 1:I said you know, I gotta win to get paid, yeah, but if I start fighting bulls when I show up I get a little check, you know. So I started. There was a guy named eddie rowden in desoto, texas, that was running a little small bull riding at the time and he would let us come out there and just basically practice bull fighting. So that's what I started doing and really enjoyed it and started chasing that dream until I got until I got injured pretty bad and I I said you know, I, I need to. I was married to my first wife at the time and, uh, it was a. You need to decide what you're going to do when you grow up from her yeah and ultimatum, I said you're right.
Speaker 1:So that's when I went back to my, my uh military background, I said you know, I really enjoyed that time, the camaraderie that I developed from the, the officers there in the air force and anyway.
Speaker 2:So there were several agencies, when I finally decided to do it, that were testing around the metroplex, one of which was fort worth, and uh got the cunt of the Metroplex, one of which was Fort Worth, and um got the cunt of the, the, that vibe of where, of the of the culture you just came from. Fort Worth's always maintained that uh welcoming of rodeo, uh lifestyle down at the stockyards, and it's just always had that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just the department has a, has a Western heritage.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:They've maintained and I really appreciate that about them and it matches my style At the time. They had one of the best retirement packages and it was a large enough department that I felt like I could try a whole bunch of different things at the rank of officer which suited my style because, as we'll probably get into, I jump around quite a bit. I did at that time, but I tested, I was able. They accepted me and went to the academy in 2001. And I've been there now since then. I haven't gone to any other departments.
Speaker 3:What I like about Fort Worth and I don't know how to describe it. But Fort Worth's a large department, but it's like a large, small department. I mean, everybody knows everybody for a big department and you go to some of the larger agencies and you're just a number and you don't really know anybody. And every time I'm around Fort Worth guys, it's like a family, even though it is a large department.
Speaker 1:And I've always really liked that. You know, I talked to the same cousin I mentioned earlier there in Houston. He said man, there's guys from my police academy that once we graduate I never saw them again.
Speaker 3:It's so big.
Speaker 1:They just don't run across each other. But especially when I was in patrol, you know, at the jail we're always seeing each other and you're right, it is a family and you know, I've seen that several times in my career where, say, for example, an officer gets hurt or we've lost an officer, Just the way my department takes care of people is pretty amazing. I have no, you're not going to hear anything from me that's negative about the Fort Worth Police and the family that's there, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you went to Fort Worth PD, went to their academy obviously, went through an FTO process and then hit patrol. Where did you kind of navigate around to kind of what you're doing now? If you want to walk us down that pathway, you bet.
Speaker 1:My first couple years on, the department was in patrol and, uh, I was at that time. The biggest need was on the east side of town, um, which pretty impoverished area, you know, and it was a culture shock to me. I'll admit that I graduated from graybond high school and I went out there, and it's mostly African-American community and I had to learn that culture and how to police it. One thing that I've noticed over the years that's changed quite a bit that was not the case when I went through is that when I went through, there were several veteran officers on my shift that were there and they, man, they were incredible at just taking you under the wing, helping you, trying to make better officers. That's what they wanted, whereas now, uh, and and I you know there's several theories as to why this has happened, but it's it it feels like younger officers training young officers well, and I want to hit on that.
Speaker 2:We started about the same time time. I started in 2005, but I was working in Dallas County in 2003. The culture difference that I see now is and smartphones have changed not only society, but it's changed our profession significantly, because when we first started we would go to briefing and then we would go, typically either shag calls, run traffic, be proactive. If we're not doing one of those three things, we things are going on in your personal life, professional life, man. There was so much shit hashed out between those two windowsills because we weren't so focused on our phones.
Speaker 2:Now it seems like and I've been out of law enforcement just a little over what two years now enforcement just a little over what two years now it seems like because of the persecution of cops, because of, you know, this whole perception of the anti-police rhetoric. Cops just want to be left the fuck alone and go to a parking lot with their windows rolled up that are tinted and just be there until a call comes and they don't have that camaraderie. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen all the time, but I'm saying I don't see it as often as I do of the window to window talks, you know.
Speaker 1:I absolutely agree with you, and not only the camaraderie that you're talking about, but the relationship with the community. You know we would get out and walk, Get out and walk and meet people, and on more than one occasion I've walked up on an officer in a parking lot and tapped on the window hey, man, get off your phone. I walked up on you and you a parking lot and tapped on the window. I said hey, man, get off your phone. I walked up on you and you didn't even know I was coming, you know.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot of things about the like you're saying that cell phone that I think need to be taken care of. Yeah, but yeah, yeah. So, anyway, that was my first two years of patrol and then and you'll hear me say this quite a bit is I've been blessed to be around some really great people. Uh, I work hard, I try to work hard, but, man, some of the things that I've done are just because other people open those doors for me and and help guide me. So, that being said, I was able to go to what we call the Zero Tolerance Team. I'll be honest with you, I forgot what they actually the little name they gave us at the time, because it's changed multiple times over the years.
Speaker 3:The Jump Out Boys, yeah, the Jump Out Boys, the Zero.
Speaker 1:Tolerance that team. They all had quite a bit more experience than I did when I joined the team, but it was so much fun. Now the mission has kind of changed. At this point it's a little more, I guess, tactically driven than it was when I was there. We did plainclothes operations, we did train with SWAT, mostly doing arrest warrants and narcotics warrants and things like that, but we did a lot of plainclothes and narcotics warrants and things like that, but we did a lot of plainclothes. So it was just a really great environment for me to grow and learn about some policing from some really really high-speed, good officers.
Speaker 1:While I was there, I was invited to come and teach at our firearms center and I would do it in an on-loan capacity. I'd go down when they had certain schools or when the recruits were coming through that kind of thing, when they needed more people, because we didn't have a full-time academy staff, right, except, I'm sorry, a firearm staff, except for the actual firearms master. Um, so I would do that. And then, uh, so I would do that, and then when they finally decided to do a full-time staff for the firearms center, I went down there and I was a firearms instructor for a while During all this I met who's currently my wife and when we decided to get married, I knew that I wanted to do something that made a little more money, a little more opportunity for for overtime and that kind of thing. So and this might interest you I went over to motors.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you were a motor jock right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I went to motors cause everybody said, hey, man traffic, they get a lot of overtime, they they work. So I was like let's do it.
Speaker 3:The problem was I hated riding tickets. That's a tough spot to be in when you're on motors.
Speaker 1:I think they still call it today. When you get called on the carpet for not doing enough tickets, the JW talk Because I was always in there. I was like, yes, Sarge, I'm sorry, I'll work on that. I was giving warnings but I loved riding that bike.
Speaker 2:It was so fun.
Speaker 1:It was so much fun yeah.
Speaker 2:And, uh, I look back on, there was days that I hated life just with the heat. I mean, yeah, I think it was 116 outside. Uh, we've had guys that have passed out I'm sure y'all have too and the heat, uh, and advocated and advocated for the outer carriers and different uniforms to be a lot more cooler, but I'm sorry I refused. It was the whole uniform presence of a motor jock with the knee-high boots. You bet Pressed uniform. I could set mine up and it would stand tall on its own with stay flow, but yeah anyway, I was the same way.
Speaker 1:I like the traditional uniform and, uh, because of a promise that I made my family, I always want a vest too, and man you're right that heat will get you a story about that. I was sitting on 35 one time and I was running lidar and and, uh, a lot of our guns started blinking this code what's going on with that? So I took it down to the, the center that handled our equipment, and showed him the code. He goes yeah, yeah, your equipment got too hot yeah, what about me?
Speaker 3:that's not the guy like yeah, well, that's great.
Speaker 1:So I went and sat in the 7-eleven freezer.
Speaker 2:You know, that's what we would do, we'd go to 7-eleven, get behind the beer cooler.
Speaker 1:And uh, did y'all have a break-in period?
Speaker 2:I've always wanted to ask that, like a big adc, like that with fort worth, we had a break-in period. The first 500 miles, uh, we were off the entire week and uh we would. We were told to go right and I'm like, okay, specify, ride. And they were. They told us to ride all of these texas, go to shreveport, ride back. And you had to put 500 because it was the break-in period for the harley davidson motorcycles. If there was a problem it would be within the 500 period and then, after that we would put our lights and stuff on.
Speaker 2:So it was kind of like a I don't know it wasn't vacation, because when we were with colleagues but you know, we would dive off in little dive bars and everything he's googling we would do everything they told us not to do. Right, he's googling. How far is it to colorado? Yeah, yeah, I wasn't sure if y'all did that or not well, uh, no, but did you have your own bike?
Speaker 1:no, no, it was apartments, it was department bike so prior to me going to motors, a lot of our guys they would go buy their bike and then the city, I guess, gave them an allowance yeah yeah, yeah. So, but what? I went on there? The city had started buying bikes. They were gonna, they were gonna own them.
Speaker 3:Um, harley's, do you ride a?
Speaker 2:hard we rode harley's. Yeah, road kings or road gl.
Speaker 1:King. Well, no, my first bike was Road King, and then we went to Street Glides.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like the Road King. Is it Road Glide? Which one is the one with the Electric?
Speaker 1:Glide, Electric Glide. Thank you, Yep, Nice. I loved riding but I'm not a. I don't you every spring that's in a SIG and that kind of thing. But anyway, man, and I tell when I go down to our academy and talk to recruits I said that was the most fun that I had in a uniform was being a motor jock and the camaraderie.
Speaker 3:So how long in deployment? How long were you in deployment unit or jump out?
Speaker 1:Two. Oh, let's see my goodness, if you want to talk about total time, it was about three years, three and a half years Now. Like I said, some of that was at the range but on paper I was assigned to them, but two years full-time and then kind of back and forth.
Speaker 3:Then how long on motors?
Speaker 1:I went in 08, and then I promoted to detective in 2012. Nice yeah, so a little over four years in motors.
Speaker 3:When you get promoted to CID, what unit did you go in?
Speaker 1:My first assignment was our family violence unit.
Speaker 3:Okay, that's a good start. Sometimes I'll hear detectives make CID and they go straight into homicide or child crimes, and I'm like man, there's a. You need to cut your teeth.
Speaker 1:Oh man yeah.
Speaker 3:If your department is set up, you need to cut your teeth on family violence or property crimes or or auto theft, or. I think there's a a good core to build for investigations before jumping into something.
Speaker 1:Without a doubt, and and you you had talked about this on one of your previous episodes, al, you know, friday you're working as an officer and then the next day you're being sent out to a scene, supposed to know how to run it, you know.
Speaker 1:so yeah, you're right, definitely there needs to be a break-in period and an opportunity to learn. And well, there you go Once again. I was pretty blessed to have that progression because I started off in Family Vibes, which was a good unit we had. We'd walk in and have 25 cases on our desk, you know. So it was good. It was a good opportunity to learn. You know, triage of cases and just how to do case management.
Speaker 1:And at that time we still had like a downtown headquarters and all the detectives that were in that building were on the third floor. So I'm assigned to family violence, but just a few cubicles down is robbery, a few cubicles down is sexual assault, and then down at the end was homicide. So I was exposed to what they were doing, got to talk to some very got to uh talk to some very, very good detectives, you know, and it was. It was well inspired me to to keep going in that direction, because my initial intent when I promoted is to do the minimum time in the detective's office get back out to motors, get back I want to be a motor sergeant, um, so that I did. Uh, my goodness, it was, it was not even a year in family violence and then I went over to our sexual assault unit, still with the intent of being a motor sergeant, but intrigued by the job. That was a good opportunity for me to learn. Interview interrogation.
Speaker 3:Was that adult and kid sexual assaults, or one or the other only?
Speaker 1:It's adult only. We have what we call CACU Crimes Against Children Unit that handle anything below. I believe they're cut off ages Fifteen, fifteen, maybe thirteen something similar.
Speaker 1:And so it was adult only Interview, interrogation and DNA. I really got a good. I cut my teeth on DNA reports and trying to learn how to analyze those. A sergeant's test was coming up. I was interested in promoting and I thought I need to slow down because that's a heavy call out unit. The sexual assault unit is heavy call out and I went to our traffic investigative unit to do that. I thought in my ignorance they don't get called out as much. You know it'd be a chance to slow down and just kind of study for the sergeant's test In my off time. Turns out traffic control. Our traffic investigative unit was pretty busy. You know we we did all fatality accidents and any accidents involving officers and then we handled the dwis and the. The hit and runs would come to us for finishing off and filing.
Speaker 1:And anyway, during that time frame I said you know what, Never mind, I like investigations, I'm going to stay here, I'm going to make a career out of investigations and be the best that I can. And I felt like you know, this may be arguable, but I felt like the pinnacle of that would be homicide. So that's what I shot for. And an opportunity came up to go to robbery. So that got me back over to the building where everybody was and it also got me exposed to violent crime investigations. So I went over there. That expanded my experience and knowledge in interview interrogation and kind of exposed me to digital forensics. We did a lot of cell phone stuff and then, of course, just the violent crime in general. And I stayed there for a couple of years until a homicide vacancy came open and I put in for it and I've been in homicide since 2016.
Speaker 3:Oh nice, Damn. Um, do y'all work your police shootings or does another unit work Police shootings?
Speaker 1:Have you ever heard the song? I've been everywhere, man. Yeah, there's a detective in my unit that sings that. You know when he talks about my career, because we have a unit called Major Case that does officer-involved shootings and anything involving, you know, use of force, incidents with officers, and I'll talk about that a little bit. But I did about 10 months over there also.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, during this homicide deal. So when I was 41 years old, I decided this is with four kids at home. When I married my wife, she had two, and then we've had two together.
Speaker 3:I said you know I'm going to go to college, Nothing else going on Nothing else going on.
Speaker 1:Man, I'm in a heavy call-out unit, at unit work, and I think I need to get educated. So I you know tarleton had a relationship before police and they they it's called the baas program and it helps you get your undergraduate degree with some credit being applied for already gone through a police academy, things like that. So I did that in criminal justice and, uh, built some relationships with some of the professors and they encouraged me to get my master's. So I said you know what you bet? So I stayed through and got my master's. Wow. And then Tarleton started their PhD program. Oh, wow, and the same thing. Some professors reached out and said that they thought that I would be a good candidate and of course they're trying to build a program so they would take anybody. So I said you know what? It sounds fun. So that's where I am now. I'm in my last semester of coursework with the PhD program and then I can start my dissertation.
Speaker 2:So I hope to finish that soon, is that where you and Vance met?
Speaker 1:Or met, or was it on a case? Vance and I met through church. Okay, yeah, we both go to church in decatur and uh, we, we met and just almost instantly became friends. We have very similar backgrounds. You know he's a horseshoer. I went to horseshoeing school in the in the military and did that for a few years, you know. And then, just following that, yeah, western lifestyle you know, it's kind of my thing, but, uh, anyway.
Speaker 1:So that's where I am, uh. And so, to go back to the major case thing, um, there came a point where and this was kind of during covid when our our caseload doubled in homicide, our homicide rate just skyrocketed and, uh, you know, when I, when I went over in 2016, we were averaging between 65 and 75 murders a year. During COVID, you're talking 120, 130 murders, and they have since expanded the unit, but at the time, we had eight detectives and it was a lot. It was a lot. So I went to major case to slow down a little bit and focus on my PhD studies, down a little bit and focus on my PhD studies. And, while I was there, the cold case detective that Fort Worth had promoted and went to be a sergeant, so I put in for the cold case spot to get back over to homicide, which they allowed me to do. So, and that's where I am. So I'm still with the homicide unit, but I focus on cold case investigations.
Speaker 3:How long have you been in that role? It's going on about a year now. About a year, yeah, so you've been in 23 years roughly in law enforcement august of this year was 23, so a little over it's amazing in a short amount of time.
Speaker 3:Um, when I got hired and got involved in police work early 90s, it was all like fingerprints. We were interested about what hair maybe you could do with hair and fingerprints. Dna was like this. It might as well have been like watching the Jetsons, I mean, it was just an unknown, that kind of sounded sci-fi and it's amazing. Then dna came online and codis hits and then now with forensic genetic genealogy, you don't even have to find the bad guy anymore. You can find a sibling or a parent or a relative. And in such a short amount of time, the ability, the technology it's crazy to watch and miss.
Speaker 3:People ask me if I miss law enforcement. I miss. I enjoyed the old school, like whodunit homicide, having to solve something where you have nothing. I enjoyed that. But now too, seeing the abilities with forensic genetic genealogy and some of the tools that are out there, man, there is so much opportunity now to give families closure that maybe there wasn't before, because of all these tools that just haven't been around all that long.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and the FGG that you're talking about? I'm having to learn that because where I started to get comfortable with STR, profiling, the traditional DNA processing, uh, and and understand it to a cop's ability, uh, fgg is a whole different animal the, the, the whole, it's, it's snips instead of STR and everything about it is different and I'm trying my best to learn it and catch up because, like you said, it's such a powerful tool for solving cases where we had nothing in the past and we have over 1,000 cold cases in Fort Worth.
Speaker 3:Wow, yeah, yeah, over 1,000.
Speaker 1:Wow, and that's primarily what I'm trying to focus on is how can I apply that technology to these whole cases, because I am not going to go back or I haven't found one yet where I go back and I go. Man, those detectives were slacking. They just didn't know what they were doing. These, the detectives of the past, were phenomenal, especially when you think about what they were doing with a phone book and and loafers. You know they hit the street and the information that they would provide is incredible, but they were limited on technology.
Speaker 1:So that's that's where I go back yeah, and I try to apply it and it is an art.
Speaker 3:I mean it's. I'm affiliated with a group called advanced dna doing forensic genetic genealogy and I'm on the peripheral of it, but the some of the ladies in there that are doing the actual research and finding these suspects. They'll sit down, well, they'll get a flag hit at night and start working, and then they'll text or call the next morning. They set up all night building a tree out and they've got this tree built out and they start hey, I I think we just found the guy and I'm like well, have you been asleep?
Speaker 3:no, I got excited about this and yeah built the tree out and it's either this it's one of these two siblings and they have this huge tree built out and man it's. It is awesome. It is the technology. To give people closure now is exciting.
Speaker 1:You know the old cop movies where they'd have the big board and the strings going from this to that and that suspect to this, and those folks can do that, like you said, in a night with a computer and it is pretty neat to watch.
Speaker 2:Of the cases that you've seen and reviewed. For the are that are fans of the podcast show, what advice would you give them? Uh, when they're completing these reports, initial reports are showing up are you seeing any type of mistakes that law enforcement necessarily were trained back then on but that we've evolved and gotten better, especially when it comes to like a cold case like that? I mean, whether you know I'll call it what it is right, we all had that one guy that was a smoker and would throw his cigarette butt down right in the middle of a crime scene back when we started and we're like God, we don't have that anymore, right, and I think every department across the state of Texas, from two-man to 2,000, we've gotten better at preserving that evidence. And have you seen something like that with with a case at Fort Worth where it's like man, we I wish this policy would have been, you know, instituted back then, because it may have it may have gave us more leads or evidence.
Speaker 1:Okay, so there's two, two sides to that question. One sometimes I'm very impressed with the stuff that they did preserve when it comes to evidence.
Speaker 1:They didn't know DNA, right, you know. So why keep this particular handkerchief or whatever that may have had blood on it? They've already printed it, they've already done what they could with it. So on one side, I'm often amazed at what was preserved, but we have a crime scene unit that's highly trained and just focuses on evidence preservation. So when it comes to that kind of thing, I think we're pretty golden now.
Speaker 1:And when there's a homicide, specifically, the police officers that initially respond, they'll take as much information as they can. When the detective comes, they hand it to them and so they do the reports. They'll take as much information as they can. When the detective comes, they hand it to them and so they do the reports. So, with regards to homicide reports, they're usually I don't know that I could take a spin on making them better, but police reports in general, I would say that one of the things that a lot of young officers need to work on is making sure that they don't take what they're thinking in their mind for granted that the jury is going to understand that, you know. So there's a lot of things that they just they notice at a scene, or some information that they may get from someone that they think well, I'll just pass it on, but it needs to be in the report and uh. So make sure you focus your police reports uh for a long-term goal for a long-term goal and for people who don't know police work.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, and I think it takes leadership, uh, not only at the patrol level, but but not and I'm not saying Fort Worth police chief hasn't done a good job at this, but I think all of us you talking about it right now on podcast, and you know Clint, his experience, garland pd, and my experience of kind of teaching these young guys look, this is what I. This is because you just said that, because you learned from it. Right, I mean, you were in court and you got your ass burned and embarrassed and so we don't. We have this culture now where it's like I don't want to, I don't want to admit that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's how we learn, I mean we're.
Speaker 2:This man is my supervisor and I promise you there are certain things that I've done on a daily basis that I've learned from uh, but he's called me on it to make me a better person and better employee. Same thing goes for these cops in the streets and ultimately, it makes us a safer community without.
Speaker 3:I think that goes back to why people don't car to car as much anymore either, because and it's I'm going to sound like the old dude, but there's a lot to be learned. I have a department in north texas where you know, if you sneeze, they give you a ride up or you get a pip, and and then they can't figure out why they have issues. And, uh, it's, it butts up to forney, littvale and the. The whole culture is broken. And if I can't sit down and talk with you and tell you, hey man, this, we need to work on this or whatever, without you going to complain to a Sergeant or a Lieutenant or filing an IA or somebody's feelings were hurt.
Speaker 3:The agency I grew up in senior guys ran the department Right. And if you had to call a supervisor every day, you're freaking incompetent and literally I was on deep nights and like a young guy to have a sexual assault or something. It never crossed my mind to call a supervisor. I would figure out oh okay, well, jimmy George is here. He's got 30-something years on. I'd go to a call box and call him or have him swing by. Dude, I have never worked a child sexual assault. What a way you need to do this. And those car to car calls I think people now are afraid to pull up car to car because I may offend him or I may well.
Speaker 3:That's where you learn. It's all institutional knowledge, I would say, and you talked about. You know, I'm not not brilliant, but I've been around a lot of brilliant people. What's it? Exposure and it's handed down. And you went to to assaults, which was down this, the hall, from robbery and homicide. Well, that's where that knowledge is trickling down. And past that institutional knowledge, and now, if we're all in our own little cubby and well, I don't want to talk to anybody, or that's the culture that I worry about. And with these little departments like sunnyvale that are broke, well, it's broke from the top down. Um, you know, and if you're dropping paper every time somebody sneezes, there's nobody's gonna, nobody's gonna work together or trust each other yeah, and our.
Speaker 1:for a multitude of reasons, the units that were on that floor are now separated. Homicides got their own section, robberies in their own, you know. So again that communication is lost, that passing on of experience suspects you know I mean how many robbery suspects, ag robbery suspects end up being our clients.
Speaker 2:They do. Yeah, you would think, but it's weird, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but so yeah, wholeheartedly. I agree with you, and something that's also been an area of interest for me as far as research is concerned y'all remember not wearing cameras body-worn cameras.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I don't know if you've ever thought this, but I have there's officers getting in a lot of heat, a lot of trouble, for things that we did that were learning experiences, you know, and we learned from them and we moved on, you know. But, uh, and case in point, um, you know there's cameras in the car, cameras on your body. You're always being monitored and I've always known and and spoke my voice about officers need to vent, you know, we they need to vent, uh, and sometimes that's two cops in a car or side by side, uh, just talking about a call. They just went on or whatever experience they had for the day. And, um, some good friends of mine so I is verified through them anyway have had, you know, with their commanders, even some write-ups for things that they've said in a car that were out of the public's view.
Speaker 1:And I'm like these guys got a vent. You don't go home and talk to your family a lot of times about what you've seen or dealt with during the day, so talking to each other is a leaning post that can help them emotionally and release some stress. And I think some of that's lost and I'm I'm concerned about where that could lead us.
Speaker 3:mental health wise for officers you know, I agree with you and it kind of goes back to the same thing Again. Not everything requires paper to be dropped or there's a whole lot to be learned. Again, my department is kind of old school leadership. They'd call you in and tell you you freaking idiot, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I've heard that a few times.
Speaker 3:Look what you did and some of the discussions they had with me. I'd probably have preferred a day off or a written reprimand, Right, right. But I assure you I never did it again, you bet. And they didn't paper up my file with a bunch of BS and I learned from it every time they told me what a moron I was. Or, um, nowadays, everything, everything requires something. There's no more. Hey, you know, quit driving too fast to a freaking priority 20 call for no reason. And I think it's changed the entire culture. I agree. I agree, changed the entire culture.
Speaker 2:I agree, I agree. So, uh, you also moving, just kind of shifting gears You've. You've got an interest in doing some podcasting uh with your I'll call it what it is expertise on on kind of what you do and, uh, not really containing it within law enforcement too, but branching out. Let's talk about the podcast and kind of what your plans are.
Speaker 1:Well, it's in. It's in you know, kind of stages of being formed, so so nothing's real solid on it yet, but my intent is, uh, to take, obviously, being a police officer, I'm going to have my perspective, that's that's present in the room. But I want to take people that are the best in their field, whatever that may be, and talk to them and learn, because I'm an inquisitive guy, right. So I want to just talk to people who have a certain amount of expertise in whatever it is they're pursuing and just learn from them. So, whether that be law enforcement or whether it be, you know, I was intrigued at a podcast that I heard once about the guy that wrote I can't remember if it's Under the Comanche Moon or Comanche Moon and he talked about his research in Texas history.
Speaker 3:Mike Blakely.
Speaker 1:There you go. There you go Fantastic podcast, you know, and I was just intrigued by what this man had to share and all the things that he learned about Texas history, and I kind of want to do something along that vein. You know, my, my side of the table is going to be law enforcement, obviously, my side of the table is going to be law enforcement, obviously. But I want to learn from people who are the best in what they do.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, promise us one thing Whenever you get it launched, you can come back and we'll co-brand it. Push it out, try to get as many followers and listeners from our small little group it's within the blue-grit culture, and let's help you succeed, because it's one thing Clinton just talked about. Cops are typically competitive, speaking on the heels of the TTPOA conference or, excuse me, swat competition that just happened this weekend. We're competitive, we like to win and we like to be on top, but I'll say, within the podcast world and culture, we have not had one door slam shut in front of us, and so it's a family, and we'll damn sure tell you what we've learned and what, what, what mistakes we've made over the course of this. You know blue grit Um, I don't want to say fiasco, but this blue grit mission that you know, tmpa, thankfully, uh, has kind of dumped onto the platforms, and so we're. It's an honor to be here.
Speaker 1:It's an honor to do the no I. You know, Vance and I are kind of dabbling in starting our own businesses. So I've been working on a name for the business that I'm trying to start and I'm getting my ideas formulated for the podcast, but not a name yet. So, and if I could do a shameless plug, Absolutely, John Vance. Specifically, he started a consulting firm, Cinco Peso Consulting Group. Yeah, yeah, great he provides expert testimony and things. So I'm kind of working on doing that also.
Speaker 2:We may get his number to Texas City. There's some situations going on down there that they probably need some consultation on of how to handle investigations correctly from an administrative point of view yeah, I don't know exactly what all he is considering.
Speaker 1:As far as the consulting side of it, I know that, primarily to this point, he's been working with attorneys that represent, you know, officers in litigation, that so um well he'd be it.
Speaker 2:it would be an interesting investigation. I'll'll say that, yeah, from the mayor down.
Speaker 1:I saw your podcast and there's a lot going on down there.
Speaker 3:My goodness, you've hitched up to a good one, john Vance is a freaking good one.
Speaker 1:Well, I tell you what our Pads are pretty similar. Obviously, he's a legendary.
Speaker 3:Texas, ranger and all.
Speaker 1:But as far as our interests he's a neat guy man. I'm really appreciating the opportunity to get to be friends with him.
Speaker 2:The majority of the Rangers that I've ever met have all been pretty down to earth. I haven't met just a couple that have, kind of you know, had their chest out head swole. John Vance has always maintained that. John Vance, since the day I met him, that's one thing. I've always thought about him, him and Leroy Jenkins, josh Jenkins, our ranger in East Texas, two of the most humble, down-to-earth people that I've ever met. But I'll tell you what it comes back to you. Both of them worked at a sheriff's office and both of them had prior law enforcement before they were Rangers. You bet, and that's not a shot at Texas Rangers, it's just fact.
Speaker 1:You bet, and you know I've had the opportunity to work with some Rangers too, and you know, like you said, most of them are just great guys and ladies that are just their whole. Mission is to help. You know, now they've got a lot of cool tools a lot of cool resources that they can lean on Ranger dust.
Speaker 2:It's the same thing. With them there's no difference. They're a trooper on a Friday and they're a ranger on a Saturday and everybody looks at them like you've got some ranger dust that you just sprinkle on top of it and they're automatically experts. Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 1:Our SOP for homicide is written in a way that when, regardless of who's on scene, it doesn't matter, rank, it doesn't matter when the homicide detective gets there, the reins are turned over to them and my very first homicide to be called out on. And I was doing what they you know, basically shadowing, ghost phase or something it's similar to that but the lead detective, his partner for whatever, I don't even remember why, but he needed that night off. So he's going to the scene, he calls me and says hey, if you want to go.
Speaker 1:You know, well, I get there and basically I'm his assist at this point now, but I'm first there. So everybody, hey, and I'm like, well, you know, I've never done this before, kind of thing. Luckily there was a deputy chief there that I had built a relationship with and was willing to help me until he got to the scene. But yeah, just, you know, vance talked about that how your first as soon as you get that badge or as soon as you get that title, you know you're expected to run the show.
Speaker 2:That day Boy. It's intimidating.
Speaker 1:It's intimidating.
Speaker 2:Well, man, we greatly appreciate you coming on.
Speaker 1:Uh, I can't. I can't thank you enough. I'm looking very much forward to getting your podcast off the ground. Well, thank you for having me, and I look forward to y'all coming and talking to me when I do, when I do get it up.
Speaker 2:Well, we like to end each episode with three rapid fire questions. Okay, did you study for?
Speaker 1:them. I, I, I'm, I think I'm aware of them, but I didn't study, so let's see how I do here.
Speaker 2:What's your favorite line from a cop movie, your favorite cop car and your favorite drink of choice whenever you're relaxing?
Speaker 1:Okay, favorite line. Or it could be a cop movie, whatever. Well, you know, okay. So if you want to talk about my style of cop movie, it's going to be Tombstone, where the guys are going down to the OK Corral right and the favorite line. I can't quote it, but you know, when Wyatt Earp finds out that his brother has joined the other brother to be a cop, he's like he got you too, you know and now he's like now I gotta do it so that scene is probably my favorite.
Speaker 1:but I would say, if you want to talk about modern cop movie, maybe Super Troopers. That's a funny one, that's a funny one.
Speaker 2:What's your favorite cop car?
Speaker 1:Cop car. The Crown Vic was a tank man. I love that car, but if I want to go fast, you know the old whale, yeah, yeah, the Shamus, I love those, but I think Crown Vic was probably my favorite. To that I used the most workhorse. Yeah, oh, you bet, and uh drink. Um, I've quit drinking, but when I was drinking, uh, I was a tito's guy and a little tx bourbon every now and then, you know, out of fort worth.
Speaker 3:I was gonna say out of Fort Worth, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So those are my drinks of choice back in the day.
Speaker 2:Well, cool Well you got anything else.
Speaker 3:No, it makes a promise. When you get close or when you get rolling. We'd love to have you back on and premiere, talk about your podcast and the name of it and make sure we help you get off the ground we of it and make sure we get help.
Speaker 1:Help you get off the ground. We'd love to be a part of it. Appreciate that you guys been great and thank you so uh, um, I mentioned john's company, but image probative solutions is mine probative solutions on the consulting. So anyway, we're kind of we kind of got the same mission that we're trying to do and thank you so much for having me. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Thank you guys, it's about work, it's it family. So well, this about wraps up everything. You guys check out the description. We're going to have all of his information. Maybe, between now and this video drops, we'll have a name for the podcast no-transcript.
