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Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
2024: Ranked #1 Law Podcast
Host: Tyler Owen and Clint McNear discussing topics, issues, and stories within the law enforcement community. TMPA is the voice of Texas Law Enforcement, focused on protecting those who serve. Since 1950, we have been defending the rights and interests of Texas Peace Officers by providing the best legal assistance in the country, effective lobbying at state and local levels, affordable training, and exemplary member support. As the largest law enforcement association in Texas, TMPA is proud to represent 33,000 local, county and state law enforcement officers.
Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
#097- “Leadership Lost”
In this episode of the Blue Grit Podcast, we sit down with TMPA Field Representative Tony Rike to break down the leadership failures that created major challenges within city management and the city council. Tony shares firsthand insight into the missteps, lack of accountability, and poor decision-making that put officers and the community at risk.
However, when leadership fails, TMPA steps in; Tony walks us through how TMPA navigated the chaos, advocating for officers, exposing dysfunction, and holding city leadership accountable. This episode is a must-listen for anyone who wants to understand how strong representation can make all the difference when leadership crumbles.
email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
understand what's going on. You really do rely on a city manager or the city attorney or somebody like this to guide you through it. I will tell you that there are some very supportive people on the city council in Jacksboro. They have a super supportive mayor. I just think that they were, for whatever reason, paralyzed by fear to actually do something. A Blue Grit podcast.
Speaker 2:I'm your co-host, Clint McNair. We're back this week along with Fowler Owen and.
Speaker 1:Tony Reich. What's up, tony Reich? The Tony Reich, I don't know man. I had a good night last night. Came in in the rain, clint and I had a good dinner. It was good Good. Where'd y'all eat at? Well, you know, austin is known for its seafood.
Speaker 2:Yes, all you did. Well, you know, austin is known for its seafood yes.
Speaker 1:With the proximity to the ocean, yeah, the gulf of america. And it just so happens that right next to the office is a popados, so we walked over to popados and had some oysters.
Speaker 3:There you go yeah, that's a good place it was good, we like to go to haymakers. We've been within there a couple times. Bullock told us pretty good, yeah, that's awesome, especially for duty games. Yep, so anyway, what's uh what's been going on with the house texas fop going? What's going on with that? What's uh social security? Since you've been on last social security, well, we're on the zoom. The social security thing last, or uh, past hr 82 past.
Speaker 2:Yep, they're working on getting that implemented. Um a lot of strong freaking work on the national level by fop and the IAFF. They were the tip of the spear getting that passed the only police group up there getting that passed. That is good. Texas FOP is put in to be the host of the 2029 National FOP Conference. So if we win that bid there will be about 5,500 to 6,000 cops converge on Houston, san Juan, texas, and close.
Speaker 1:Maybe you're going to try to get in love with someone.
Speaker 3:West Laco, el Paso, amarillo, state board meetings coming up April 11 through 13 in.
Speaker 2:Wichita Falls.
Speaker 1:Love Wichita Falls.
Speaker 2:We've got a bunch of lodges wanting to come online that we're working on getting in. We've got two lodges that left a couple years ago that now want back in.
Speaker 3:Explain not the marriage of TNPA and Texas FOP but the benefit Just real quick, before we kind of dive off into Jack Sparrow, because I think it's important because FOP could have assisted with them as well. But talk about the importance of why local associations from TNPA would want to join Texas FOP and what that marriage looks like, because you get calls all the time. When you took the president's spot they were like oh shit, you left it. No, he's not left tmpa, he's representing texas fop.
Speaker 2:So I'll talk, just talk about that um, yeah, so texas is the group in texas. I mean we are the um, the big dog dog on the porch in Texas. But we need a national affiliation and FOP is that national affiliation. There's about 300, almost 380,000 cops in national FOP, which is freaking huge. I mean that's a large family to be a part of. Seeing HR 82 pass displays, that CNHR 82 pass displays, that when it was up in question if that was going to get passed and the president of FOP flies to Mar-a-Lago and stands with Trump to discuss it. There's not many other groups out there that are doing that.
Speaker 2:Schumer asked to visit with FOP the rally that took place, but also FOP in Texas. You know our sister peers, our sister groups for years has been the 5,000 men and women at Houston, the 4,300 men and women at Harris County, the 2,500 at Dallas. We all work arm in arm Dallas County. But there's never been an umbrella for us to lock arms like, just lock arms to fight and stand as one. And FOP is that umbrella as we all come under that umbrella. Houston doesn't need legal from anybody, they stand alone. But us uniting under FOP allows us to lock arms as one and really like walk the halls of the Texas Capitol and as things progress, because more and more we're seeing when legislators want to know something, they want to hear it from FOP because they know that they recognize that national level. Yeah, and all these massive groups working together and we're seeing it more and more. Monday morning's T-LIC meeting, um, we had some very large departments.
Speaker 1:They're not affiliated with tmpa or anyone else, they're affiliated with our competitor, but they're showing up to be a part of um, the movement, because we all want the same thing well, I also think people don't realize how important it is to have unity and to have one voice it's just like when we go into these locals we'll talk about in a second in Jacksboro but if I go into a city and I've got an association and you know there's a hundred officers at that department and three of them are members of the local, you got to have that strong voice and going with you know our locals in the Texas FOP just helps. It helps everybody, it helps the cause, yep.
Speaker 2:Yep, or if you're in a city like that with 300 cops and they have four different associations and they're all bickering and can't get on the same sheet of music. It's completely counterproductive and unity is the theme of the day. Man, everybody's standing together and working together, in kind of a new dawn here in Texas.
Speaker 3:I was at a dinner with a politician one night and just for the 22-year-old cop out there that's sitting in the patrol car listening to this podcast at 2 am in the morning, to put things in perspective, you mentioned four having four different associations at a large agency. Let's just say, hypothetically, dpd. Well, they do have four associations. You have DPA, let's just say it's DPPOA and other. You know asterisks. Well, when you walk into a senator's office on the state level, they're going to recognize TNPA, dpa, houston, you know HPOU and some other state organizations. But when you go to DC, they're not going to know, they're not going to recognize TNPA unless they're a very heavily involved you know state senator or US congressman, but the way he explained it, this politician was we can blanket under the FOP umbrella when you walk in there and everybody in DC knows who the Internal Order of Police is, just because of their heavy presence there. I just wanted to kind of throw that out there. Well, not only that.
Speaker 1:But people know FOP just from watching movies.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, that's, true, call your FOP Chicago PD.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you hear that in a lot of movies too. So FOP is definitely an umbrella that I think we need to get all of our people under in Texas.
Speaker 3:Well you for those that don't know or haven't followed our podcast, clint is also. He's currently the Texas FOP president, but he's also field services supervisor for TMPA up in the North Texas area. One of his field reps is here, tony Reich, who's been on the podcast before, always love having you on, because when these lights pop on and the cameras get kicked on, me and clint are used to it, but some some people are are great at trying, you know, transitioning into this and, and some people are a little more hesitant, you have been awesome and you love. You love the podcast.
Speaker 3:You're a fan of the show oh yeah and so you got some issues going on up in north texas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, not, not, not tony personally well, I do, but you know before that, as we're sitting here talking about that, I feel like I'm on talladega nights, when didn't know what to do with his hands what do I do?
Speaker 3:what do I do yeah?
Speaker 1:so I always sit here and kind of figure out what I'm trying to do with my hands and yeah, but yeah, I mean so so you got some, so you got.
Speaker 3:You had a shitty situation going on jacksboro and uh and, and we're going to talk about leadership. You've got some other issues going on in Jacksboro and we're going to talk about leadership. You've got some other issues going on around the Metroplex, but let's dive off into kind of how the Jacksboro thing happened, what we'd identify, what the failure was for at the leadership level, and then talk about what we've done thus far. And we've got an update too. That happened as of yesterday.
Speaker 1:You know. So I think, before we even get into that, I think it's important for us to even talk about Texas as a whole. And so when you talk about Texas and agencies, you know everybody talks about these big departments. You know Dallas, plano, allen, austin, you know Houston, et cetera, et cetera. But the vast majority of our agencies are smaller, rural agencies where they're not making a lot of money. You know, you've got 10 to 15 to even 20 officers. I think that's probably the majority of departments in our state.
Speaker 3:Or smaller agencies T-LOOK.
Speaker 2:The other morning the new T-Cole director, Greg Stevens, said there's 2,800 agencies, and I heard a number somewhere at one time where the vast majority, I think, are like 20 or less. I believe that. Yeah, I believe it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So let me kind of dive into in, before we get into that, talking about smaller agencies. Well, when you get out to where we're going to specifically talk about jacksboro, which is in jack county, which has a whole other set of issues, that's a whole.
Speaker 2:Other podcast it's a whole other, whole other podcast but you've seen it if you're on land, if you watch land man, you've seen some yeah yeah or work for a shitty sheriff and just throwing it out there yeah.
Speaker 1:So, um, you know, with that being said, when you get out, you know from the metroplex and you got to figure it's, you know, two, two and a half hours from dallas. Yeah, and in dallas I never thought I would see a day when a patrol officer is going to be making, you know, starting off making eighty thousand dollars a year. I mean, I just, I just never thought that would happen. But here we are and you know, out there you have agencies like Baylor County. You know some of these smaller counties out there that literally have no health insurance provided by the county, no retirement, no uniforms, and they're making, you know, $35,000 a year. Thankfully, with the Senate Bill 22 that was passed last session, these guys are making a little more money, but still it's not very much money.
Speaker 2:Buy your own uniform, buy your own gun, buy your own pretty much except buy your own car Yep, Buy it all.
Speaker 1:So, specifically talking about Jacksburg, you had a small agency that for the longest time kind of struggled keeping people. You know, having people come work for them and I think it's important to talk about and this doesn't just apply to law enforcement, but really any job. If you have a good culture and you have a good leader, people are going to stay there and you can really not pay them hardly anything and they're going to stay because people value those relationships and they value how that place makes them feel and the atmosphere. And when guys are now job hopping and looking for different places to work relationships and they value how that place makes them feel, in the atmosphere. And you know, when guys are now job hopping and looking for different places to work, I'm like, well, you have to take into consideration what that culture is, because money is not everything. And I tell guys all the time you know, yeah, you're making great money, but if you're so unhappy that you hate going to work, well, you should probably go, look someplace else. Yeah, Right.
Speaker 1:So in Jacksboro their culture really became, I would say, one of the better places in North Texas in the last year due to the promotion of a chief named Brian Corb. He literally turned that place. I was, I was there in December, literally the weekend before all this went down that we'll talk about here in a second and we did their Christmas party and everybody was there. It was a family atmosphere. You can tell that the chief truly cares about each and every one of his officers. You know, you're not just a number to me, You're part of my family?
Speaker 2:Did he come from internal or up through the department, or from outside?
Speaker 1:No, he actually came from down in the Houston area, okay yeah, so anyway, actually came from down in the Houston area, okay yeah, so anyway, came up there as a lieutenant, got promoted to chief Super culture and a great chief. I mean, the guys love him and the gals that are working there. So, good culture, good place to work. But they had some issues leading up talking about leadership. Well, ultimately, who runs a city like this is a city manager. So, especially in smaller agencies, we deal a lot with, I would say, ineffective city managers and if they don't have a city manager, a lot of times you'll get a new mayor in there and they can literally destroy a town just like that.
Speaker 3:Yep At the snap of a finger If it doesn't meet their agenda.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it doesn't meet their agenda, or they don't agenda, or they have a small town. Everybody knows everybody. They have a personal issue because one of the officers wrote his third cousin's mama a ticket, that kind of stuff. So we do deal with that quite a bit. So, great chief, great department, fully staffed, mind you which is unheard of which is unheard of, fully staffed, mind you. And really, where everything kind of started, they had some issues going on. Not, you know, you're always going to have some issues, maybe, you know, throughout the years, with you know pay or different stuff, with leadership and you know management, all that kind of. And that's just to be expected, because it's a business, you're going to have disagreements. Well, really, what kicked this off for me and what started getting my attention in the area is I think it was back in September, they wanted to get a canine program, so we started an association in Jacksboro a year and a half ago I think it was November of 23, something like that.
Speaker 3:After the mention of canine Okay, before, before all this.
Speaker 1:So we had a good association, great association leadership. Before all this. So we had a good association, great association leadership. Unfortunately, the officer that was the president has now left Jacksboro due to all this and we'll get to that in a second and has literally gone a couple of cities down because he left, because he's not going to stick around for bad leadership, but started the association. Great president, good board of directors up there, really good job, did such a good job that they were able to go to the community and get a canine donated and I just don't mean the dog donated, the dog food, housing, everything needed for this canine program was donated, done by the association and the citizens of Jacksboro, so this dog was taken care of Well. So they present all that to council. Dog is paid for, you know, not a problem.
Speaker 1:Well, city manager wasn't on board with the canine, he didn't want it, it wasn't his idea. So council approved it as soon as they approved it. Whatever not their council meetings are they all have take-home cars because it's a small city need to respond Very next morning. City manager, they all have take-home cars because it's a small city and they need to respond the very next morning, city manager revokes all the take-home car privileges from all the officers because they didn't go through him for the canine. So that's really kind of where my that's fragile ego God damn it. Yeah, so that's really when my ears kind of perked up and I went well, that's just, that's not right, that's shitty. Yeah, it's bad, it's not right.
Speaker 1:So, long story short, that got worked out. Chief ended up going. It was in the council, it was all good. So they got their take home cars back, but obviously that put a ding on, you know, on their relationship. Well, I think at that point, because they kind of I won't say at war, but I think he was nitpicking and trying to find stuff to maybe pin on these officers or whatever. So then fast forward to December. This is in September. Get the canine, everything's done. All that's rocking along. I meet with them. I told you guys for a Christmas party. Great, great time, great people.
Speaker 3:I think the city manager wasn't there.
Speaker 1:No manager wasn't there. Uh, no, he wasn't there. I'll just ask him. He may have been invited, I don't know, but he was actually. Um, anyway, super, super, super good time. Um, very next week the fire department, which you know it's, it's small they have their the other christmas party.
Speaker 1:Well, there are some pretty strong allegations that the city manager does run around jacksboro and he does. He does like to drink a little bit, right, and there's I. You know, I don't I'm not going to speak to it because I've never personally seen him intoxicated any place, but that's kind of the talk around town from some of the leadership that I know in Jacksboro that I've met. So he's at a Christmas party and apparently some officers thought that he may have been intoxicated. But they're at a private place, so nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1:The fire department then asked my two police officers that are there, members of tmpa, to leave the assault, to leave the party, basically kick them out. Well, during all this, when the officers text, uh, one of the other officers of the department says, hey, the city manager's here. I think he might be intoxicated. So what they did is they said well, because of the city manager, because he's known to retaliate against us because you know all these issues that are going on. We don't want to get involved with that. So let's see who else in the county can possibly come over and help us. So they texted DPS. So out there, the next trooper was actually in the next county over, but he has both counties. So they text him and he comes over to the county, says yeah, I'll help you guys out, just you know whatever. So my officers have now left this party. They're not there. They have no idea what the city manager's driving. They have none of it, and that wasn't relayed to the DPS trooper.
Speaker 1:No, no, no idea. They're not even there, so they leave. A couple hours later a trooper comes over. He's kind of sitting around doing whatever troopers do.
Speaker 1:I guess they're going to drive around looking for something. Well, sure enough, they see a car that doesn't have any tail lights or headlights one of the two and PC for a stop. Oh yeah, so made a stop. Well, my officers had got kicked out. One of them is not anywhere even near this traffic stop, the other one, because Jacksburg is a small town, if you see red and blue lights flashing, you stop. Yeah, you stop.
Speaker 1:Well, sure enough, just so happened, it was this trooper who had the city manager pulled over. Well, like I said, trooper's going to do what trooper's going to do. He does all of his business and lets the city manager go. End of story. Now, also, at some point during this time, I think, there were some allegations made that it was an illegal traffic stop. But I can tell you that there's a text message that I've seen that the city manager texted to several people that said I apologize, I didn't know I had malfunctioning lights. So it was a valid traffic stop. I mean good, probable cause, nothing wrong with that at all. Well, because of everything that happened before, with my officers getting kicked out and all this, the city manager then, the very next morning, puts the two officers that were at the fire department Christmas party and the chief, who wasn't even anywhere near there, puts them all on admin leave and that's not retaliation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's not retaliation. It's not retaliation. So this was in. This was on December round two. So yeah, this, this actually happened December 8th, which is a Sunday morning. The party was on Saturday night, so December Sunday or Monday morning was when all this went down.
Speaker 1:Well, obviously, to me that was pure retaliation. He had zero reason to put these, to put these three officers on on admin leave for no reason. I mean zero reason. Never gave them under 614, the government code, their notice of what they supposedly violated. Nothing, there was absolutely zero done on this. So this happened the first week of December. So then rock along December 8th and today's almost February 1st and, as of yesterday, all three officers were put back to work because they didn't do anything wrong. So the city manager at some point contacted the Texas Rangers to do an investigation, saying that I don't know what they were looking for because nobody's ever told us. I knew they didn't do anything wrong. The officers didn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 1:I'm like this is nothing but pure retaliation. To me it almost looks like the city manager is the one that that, that that did official oppression by putting these officers under leave with that, with no notice, for no reason. And what's happened with all this is the shakeout is is the ones who suffered in all this, besides my officers being off work and basically, you know, even if you didn't do anything wrong, if you're put on admin leave, it's stressful, oh yeah, and it gives the impression to everybody that, oh my gosh, maybe they did something wrong. Well, guess what? They did nothing wrong, and I've been at every council meeting telling the citizens of Jacksboro and the council that they did nothing wrong. But the ones who suffered in all this are the citizens of Jacksboro and the council that they did nothing wrong, but the ones who suffered in all this are the citizens of Jacksboro. Yeah, so had an incident that occurred a couple of weeks ago because there was no officers working, because it's a small department Between Christmas and New Year's, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that weekend Sunday.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So we had a guy who was running around town with a gun threatening people in Jacksboro. Now, keep in mind, at this point there's one officer working the sheriff's office, which, as we said earlier, is a whole other podcast because there's a lot of corruption going on there. They send all their deputies home at either 11 pm or 3 am, depending on the day, so there's nobody in the county to even help the one officer that I have working. So you have a man running around with a gun, right, threatening people. Well, he goes into a house where his wife and his kids are, or his baby mama and his children. So the one Jacksburg officer is not going to approach this guy because he does have a blue warrant. He'd been actively running from TDC and from authorities since October. They said he was armed and dangerous, and you're by yourself right. Since October they said he was armed and dangerous, and you're by yourself right.
Speaker 1:So he starts looking for help and he goes to the current acting or as of, not anymore from yesterday, but it was the current acting police chief in Jacksboro who had been gone during all this mess. Well, he comes back and he gets thrown into it. So officer goes to his, calls him no answer and he gets thrown into it. So officer goes to his, calls him no answer. Goes to his house, beats on the door no answer. He has no help. He finally calls another Jacksboro officer at three o'clock in the morning saying man, this guy's in a house, he's got a gun, he's in there with his kids, I need some help. So Jacksboro officer Aaron's his first name, Aaron left got up three o'clock in the morning, drives to Jacksboro to help the one officer who doesn't have any help, and they luckily end up taking this guy into custody with zero incident. But there's two of them. Nobody can cover the back.
Speaker 2:It was just a whole bad scenario In any other cities, likely a SWAT call yeah and you got one patrolman trying to, just trying to get help Like somebody.
Speaker 1:Please help me. So luckily, nobody was hurt in that incident and I think that was the same week where we literally lost three officers in Texas when all this was going on and, thank goodness, and just like Aaron we talked about a second ago, got up in council while he was still working there and told them, if something happens to one of us because you have officers that didn't do anything on leave, our blood is going to be on your hands. Talking about the council and the city manager, which is 100 true. So I don't know what took it so long. They never my our officers never got a 614 warning about what they supposedly did wrong. We still don't know what they supposedly did wrong. I can tell you that it went to the Texas Rangers. We still don't even know why. All we know is on Monday night we were at a council meeting and there was a TML attorney there. And next thing we know, as of yesterday morning or actually on Tuesday night, and next thing we know, as of yesterday morning or actually on Tuesday night or Wednesday night, I forget my night just a day or two ago that they recommended that all officers be reinstated and they were so as of yesterday morning. Now we have the chief and the two officers on admin leave back to full duty.
Speaker 1:Now the problem with all this is is in between all this, because you're looking at almost two months when you already had a small department. Well, you've already got. I just told you Aaron, who was my POA president. He's left to go work at a different place. Everybody else is looking to go someplace else. Because you don't want to work in a city that's not going to take care of you or your leadership backing, or doesn't care about you and you know now what you got to think is okay.
Speaker 1:If this city manager comes back in and he's already done this to the citizens of jacksboro put them in danger. Well, what else is he capable of? A truck, so um, and that's. And that's just using jacksboro specifically as an example, but that happens all over the state all the time has anybody seen the, the in-car camera, the DPS's traffic stop?
Speaker 1:So we have requested open records on all of it, but because it was a pending investigation, we haven't been able to get anything. So my next step is to hopefully get all of this information and find out. So the city manager's making the claim that he was targeted or whatever, well, that was completely false. Our officers weren't even there and it wasn't even our officers that made a traffic stop. If he's going to be mad at anybody, he's going to be mad at DPS for pulling him over.
Speaker 3:Well, and let's just throw it out there and I'm probably going to expose some hidden agendas here, but the Jack County Sheriff and the city manager are really good friends and the city manager are really good friends. The effects of a police department closing and a sheriff's office assuming that responsibility has significant budget impacts. Oh yeah, that the depletion of the police department to where it's not operational is going to force them to reach out to the sheriff's office in order to assist them with the law enforcement needs of that community Sheriff gets a bigger budget, gets more manpower, gets more authority, gets more control, more political capital within this community, and so it's just a political nightmare.
Speaker 3:I think, thank God right. These are the moments that I think all three of us sitting here love our job. It's not that I like picking fights with city manager, it's not that I like calling out bullshit politicians, but I love, and I love the fact that this organization stands up for cops, because if we weren't there, how would this have played out? I don't know, you know.
Speaker 2:One thing that's unique there, though, is the city manager wields a lot of authority, because oftentimes, in these small cities, when you get some freaking nut job whether it's some mayor who's never had power in his life, and suddenly he thinks he's president of the world or whatever, and you get these fragile egos, you can convince the city council to, you can educate the council to understand, you hire and fire the city manager, and if he's going to act like this, fire his butt.
Speaker 1:Well, I've never been to a city that, for whatever reason, it's almost like they were afraid of the city manager and I've never, I've never had that.
Speaker 3:I thought a lot about this on the way in. I thought a lot about it the last two months.
Speaker 3:I think it comes down to this. I think that you've got a city council, that their ethic and moral compass is pointing north and I think that they're inexperienced with the way city government works and they're relying on the city manager in order to conduct that business works. And they're relying on the city manager in order to conduct that business, and I think that they are afraid that a misstep by them of not coinciding with how government works as far as the formality, that it could potentially hurt them politically.
Speaker 1:I 100% agree with that. I think, especially in these towns let's face it, if you're if you, if you're running for mayor, you're running for council you don't most of you don't have a degree in civics or government to understand what's going on. You really do rely on a city manager or the city attorney or somebody like this to guide you through it. I will tell you that there are some very supportive people on the city council in Jacksboro. They have a super supportive mayor. On the city council in Jacksboro. They have a super supportive mayor. I just think that they were, for whatever reason, paralyzed by fear to actually do something, and I think that maybe they didn't know they could do something.
Speaker 3:And I'm not going to name, I'm not going to go too much into detail because session is going on, but there are some political ties, relationships, deep relationships with the city manager and city attorney and I also think that strengthens the fear from city council from acting. I think that you know if a misstep by them would be capitalized on by a city manager. I think that's the best, I agree.
Speaker 1:I mean you've got to look at the money. I mean it's always about money, right. I mean you've got to figure out, you know who's going to get funding. Look at the money. I mean it's always about money, right. I mean you got to figure out, you know who's going to get funding, who's not?
Speaker 2:yeah, money and egos, because the theme that we see generally in bad leadership is some freaking dude with a fragile ego and or combined with incompetence, because you can go around the state and name examples el paso isd. Texas city, sunnyvale, marshall, texas City, sunnyvale, marshall PD. Old chief. Yeah, yeah, sorry, sheriff. You can name examples and every time it's fragile ego and or incompetence, one or the other or both combined, and it destroys freaking communities. It destroys communities.
Speaker 1:Well, and I don't know, I've been thinking about this too. You know how does how does it? How do you take a city like Jacksboro, which, which is a pretty good size town? You know how do you come back from this? You know, all of a sudden, now you have three guys that are everybody's looking for a job. You had a great department that was fully staffed. Well then, how, if you still have that city manager in place? If I was an officer looking for a job and I knew everything that was going on there because you talk, we all talk I wouldn't go to work there.
Speaker 2:No, even though you have a great job. No, they don't. Hawkins. Hawkins can't get out of its own way. And so now nobody wants to be the police chief. They go through police chiefs, you know, every few months. Nobody wants to be the city manager, nobody wants to be the city attorney, and people can't figure out why and sometimes they don't come back. It takes the community realizing that it's their community and they control it, to really affect change. And again we see that all the time because we're trying to empower council to handle a bad chief or a bad city manager and half the time we end up trying to empower council to handle a bad chief or a bad city manager, and half the time we end up trying to empower the community to handle council.
Speaker 1:Well, that's truly how you get things changed, is you know? Ultimately, we have to figure out, we have to look at how our society and how our government works and it's run by these citizens of whether the county or the city, so it takes. The citizens of Jacksboro are going to have to stand up and say you know what? This isn't right. Now again, smaller towns you have a lot of division in towns where you're on team city manager or you're not. But I think I think it's important that the citizens do speak out and let their representatives on that council know what it is that they want. And that's the same thing.
Speaker 1:When we're trying to get pay raises or anything else for officers or deputies at sheriff's offices, it's up to commissioner's court. Well, it takes that community to get behind and say, hey, pay these guys. You have Somerville County who's got $16 million in a rainy day fund. You have the money to pay your people, pay them. And what it all boils down to and I say this a lot when I'm speaking in front of councils and commissioners courts, because it's most times on personnel issues like this If you're a city or you're a county or you're an employer, just treat your people right, just do the right thing, and if you do the right thing, they're going to take care of you too.
Speaker 2:And our, our form of government is kind of like the legal system in America. It's the best there is in the world, but it's not perfect. It's not perfect and what we see a lot of times is the chief, the city manager, only knows what the chief tells him.
Speaker 2:Well, the chief's not going to go. Tell the city manager, well, I'm really screwing up and shit's kind of crazy right now, and none of my people are happy he's not going to do that. Well, the only thing the council knows is what the city manager tells them. And the city manager's not going to go well, your city's burning down right now Cause I'm not all that great of a city manager. They're just not going to do it.
Speaker 2:And so council has to be educated. And I don't mean educated because they're dumb, but that's how we spend a lot of our time is trying to educate reality to people. We're seeing it in Texas city. The chief and the mayor there are freaking dirty, as can be, but the council only knows what they know. Until people come in and really educate the council on the truth, um, it's not a great system. But our former government years ago, our council, when we met with them, they were like we just didn't know all of this. How come we didn't know. And I'm like well, the chief's not going to come over here and tell you. My people don't like me and they prefer I'm gone.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, first thing, I tell every association in fact, tonight we're going out to actually have a new president and one we're going to start another association, not kind of in the west texas area. But you know, I tell them the very first one of the most important things you guys can do is you start an association to take care of each other. If one or something happens to one of you. You need to have that support system in place that y'all have immediate help to help another member of your department, your association. But the the sidewall of all that is, you can do things in the community to make the community better. And it's so important that these associations have political capital built up with their council members and their commissioners, courts. That's the most important thing you can do is to have those relationships.
Speaker 1:Because of what you just said, clint, they only know what they're being told. Yeah, so it's important that these associations and the association leadership have those personal relationships with these council members so they really do know what's going on. So if the city manager tells them X, y and Z, well, they already know. Well, that's not, that's not right, that's right. So I tell guys, whenever you have an association, go meet your council members, take them out to coffee and that first meeting you don't talk about the city at all. Nope, nothing. Just get to know them. Get to know each other, have that relationship. Understand that any city business is going to be some give and take. Nobody's going to get a 50% raise each year, but it's a business. So it's important to have those relationships and to have that political capital built up. So important to have those relationships and to have that political capital built up. So whenever we get these calls, the very first thing I ask a lot of my members is do y'all have any political capital?
Speaker 2:and guess what? Most places don't. Yeah, name your city council members, um, but what? But? What you're describing is exactly it's the microcosm of exactly why tmpa is a ledge team.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep state reps and senators only know what they know, yep, and if we're not down there explaining police perspectives and in helping them understand police issues, they're gonna make decisions that aren't in our best interest because they don't know what's the exact same thing at the local level. Your council member, monday through friday, owns a laundromat or owns some you know an insurance business or whatever. They're going to get input from somewhere and if you're not there ensuring you're educating them on your issues, the police issues, they're going to make a decision. It may not be in your best interest, but they're going to make one.
Speaker 1:And I'm not saying they're making bad decisions on purpose. It's just the fact they don't know, absolutely. They just don't know. So it's important that we get out and educate them, not only at the legislative level, but also at the local level as well.
Speaker 3:Yep, so you know, but I I will say this and it's, it's, it's, it's a double-edged sword, because I have seen it and I've experienced it you both have too is that you can become bigger if an association, they can become more powerful than technically their police chief we've all sitting here have been leadership in our own association and have had administrators walk in our office and close the door and say, hey, where am I messing up at?
Speaker 3:That was at the local level. But respect that right, respect the fact that you hold that heavy sword and carry it.
Speaker 1:Oh, 100%. You know, last time I was here was on an episode with Zach Hicks. Yeah, zach Hicks did an amazing job with the association when he was over that in Bedford, so you know he had those relationships built up with that political capital Did a fantastic job, yep, but it's important to have that.
Speaker 2:And being in that position, it's like in a marriage. Zach respected that relationship and that authority he wielded, yeah, and once he achieved it, he didn't drop it. He fostered it and maintained it, even through leadership changes or whatever. And that's how Bedford has one hell of a good, strong police association.
Speaker 1:You know, and I tell you it's not an overnight process. You know, and I guess probably the best example of that is McKinney, who tried to get civil service many years ago and lost it. But because of that now they have fostered these relationships with these council members now for the last 15, 20 years and it's a fantastic department and the city council wholeheartedly supports the police because that association and those individual officers have built up those relationships with them. So good leadership. That's an example of great leadership. Their mayor, george Fuller great leadership and does a lot of good stuff for the police department. So there's definitely good examples out there. But then when you get into a town like Jacksboro specifically, that is a prime example of one man who wielded enough power to basically wreck a community and a department.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and not at the city manager level, and so it's important for these city councils to recognize what good leadership is and continue that. But at the administrative level sometimes it's even worse, and we see that more in our profession of seeing bad leadership at the chief's level. And speaking of that, we're going to talk about Sunnyvale and the disaster of what's going on there and kind of how we're navigating through all that. So give us an update on Sunnyvale.
Speaker 2:To both y'all's point. It starts and stops at leadership.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent.
Speaker 2:A great leader causes the culture you talked about, where I know all the agencies. I had an agency in North Texas smaller agency, but in Dallas County that every agency around them made quite a bit more money but they were the only agency that stayed fully staffed and had a waiting list. Because of the culture there, singly, because of the culture. It starts and stops with leadership. Sunnyvale, the former chief got forced to seek better opportunities, is what he said. He's now in Bonham, texas, where he's on a pit for his conduct with the secretary.
Speaker 1:He blows up everything where he goes, anyway. Oh yeah, yeah, he leaves a path of destruction wide up everything where he goes.
Speaker 2:Anyway, oh, yeah, yeah, he leaves a path of destruction wide, wide and deep everywhere he goes um. The replacement chief under the former chief at sunnyville, uh, pretty much if you sneezed or farted, you got a written, you got a.
Speaker 3:You got a written in your file and I think it's important real quick, just to throw out for those that don't know where sunnyville is at. It's on the southeast side of dallas county. It's a community that 10 years ago didn't even exist. For the most part it's a bedroom community that probably had a 1500 people. Now it's got 25, 30 000 and probably going to grow more and it's going to butt up next to 40 and you we will not. Well, you can't tell it now. There's not a difference between when you leave dallas, go through sunnyville, and 40 there. You can't tell a difference. I just want to kind of give the viewer and or listener uh, yeah, middle to upper class, uh, rooftop community.
Speaker 2:Mostly there's some business there, but rooftop community, but you know they lead by fear. Um, pretty much if you freaking look at somebody wrong, you get it written in your file. Did an open records request last fall. They fought it and fought it and fought it. In December I filed a complaint with the AG. The AG forced them to comply and I got, like I think, only one year's worth of write-ups and they're a I don't know 20 or 30-man department. There are more write-ups in one year at a 20 or 30-man department than at the the 300 man department I worked at in a 10 year period. I've never seen anything like it and like a written reprimand uh, cause you should have played. You were 10 minutes late today and I'm like whatever happened to calling somebody in and going Tony, don't do that crap again. Hey, dude, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:On time, literally right up after write up after write up after write up, when you know you got the fragile ego guy is when they start making threats that when I find out who's talking to TMPA you're fired. We're praying that that occurs. We're not praying an officer gets fired but we look forward to There'll be some repercussions of that happening. We look forward to the repercussions to his career that this happens. But you can look at it all over the state. El Paso ISD is a freaking mess. It's a hot mess, dude. So I do an open records request on the chief and I find out he gets appointed as the police chief and 11 or 13 months later, right at one year later, he begins the police Academy so he can learn how to become a police officer a year later. It's kind of hard to be a good police chief when you're not even really sure what the police do.
Speaker 3:That's the definition of putting the cart for the horse Dude.
Speaker 2:It's insane. We got Texas city, texas city. Now the mayor and the chief there. Uh, according to um reports from Texas city overnight, now in now, in public comment section, if you speak to anything other than an item on the agenda, you're going to be threatened with arrest because fragile egos and corruption. And so they're going to start threatening citizens with arrest over their First Amendment right. And it starts and stops with leadership it starts and stops with leadership it starts and stops with leadership.
Speaker 1:You know, when people like tonight starting the association that we're going to talk to and it's a good place, they're not having issues. And I tell people, if you're going to start an association, don't start it because you're mad about something. That's not the time to start an association. You don't build an army during war, right? But a good sheriff and a good police chief and, for this matter, a good city manager Because I have the Gainesville Texas city manager, barry is a fantastic city manager and he has literally turned Gainesville around in their books. I mean, he's just a fantastic city manager.
Speaker 1:So all three of these, which are the leadership roles in the department, they want a strong association because that strong association can do things politically that they just can't do and also it gives them that voice to really know what's going on in the department instead of relying on because I tell guys this all the time you know, if the chief walks by you and you're unhappy and chief says, hey, how are things? You're like, oh, things are great, chief, and then he walks by and you're like that son of a gun, you know that kind of stuff. Yeah. So a good association, a good leader wants that because that way they can keep their pulse on you know the climate of the department, the morale, which the ways are going, why you know and stay on top of those issues. So I think it's important that ultimately, like we said, everything that down we've been talking about today is all about good leadership. And good leadership, I'm telling you you can go sit through 100 classes and you can make a leader, but also, people are born leaders.
Speaker 3:I don't think you can make them. I don't think you can sit through enough classes. You're either born with it or you're not. That's just my personal opinion. I could be wrong.
Speaker 2:The best way to learn how to be a leader is to be around. Good leaders Agree. Going and sitting in a classroom listening to some guy with six PhDs who's actually never been in charge of anything in his life tell you about how to be a leader. That'd be like me trying to tell you how to do brain surgery I got asked this.
Speaker 3:The other day I was talking to a command staff here in Central Texas and they were like what the hell does TNPA field reps know about leadership? The majority of y'all weren't sergeants or patrol. Here's the fact of it. Right is that all three of us can tell him about leadership, because we've seen the failures. We've seen the continued failures within leadership bad leadership across Texas, the line-level employees, the thousands and thousands of management surveys that we've gone through. We've talked to line level employees about what they can improve on. So to answer that person's questions, we know it because we're shoulder to shoulder with people who have suffered bad leadership.
Speaker 2:And we've led our local associations before we came to TMPA and we're exposed every day to beautiful examples of good leadership that's right and beautiful examples of the worst leadership in Texas. I agree 100%.
Speaker 3:Well man, is there anything else going on we?
Speaker 2:got the peace officer moral To y'all's point there at the end it always cracks me up a red flag, and you had one recently, I think, in Iowa Park, where you started a local and immediately it's.
Speaker 1:you can't do that. You can't do that local and immediately it's.
Speaker 2:You can't do that. You can't do that. When somebody is deathly afraid of an association starting because we have it a lot with chiefs and sheriffs, somebody will come in and say, hey, I think I'm going to start an association, and you hear the chief or the sheriff is, oh no, you're not going to do. That should be the biggest like right, that's like ponchos, the flags you see waving at the car, lots that are like 40 feet by 80 feet or whatever. That should be that bit of red flag if a police chief or a sheriff is that scared. In the flip side of that, the calls that I love the most is when I'll get a chief or a city manager call me hey, clint, yep, I need you to get your ass over here and get all my people signed up for tmp to protect themselves and, uh, tell them how to get an association started.
Speaker 1:Yeah 100% agree.
Speaker 3:An association or a management survey, the ones that run for management surveys. I had a previous employer who is an elected official in Harrison County. He is the sheriff and I brought up in it. I said, hey, I want to know how I'm doing, I want to know how our people can do better our leaders and his response was at the end of the day, I could give two fucks of what these people think about how I'm doing as a leader. I'm elected to serve this county and that's what I'm going to do. And that was the mentality that he had and another reason why I'm glad I came to TMPA. But you cannot have that mentality. You've got to be evolving, always to be a better person.
Speaker 2:I agree so, yep, white house, texas chief robinson yeah, he'd been there about three minutes as the chief and calls me uh, get down here and sign all my people up so that I know that they got protection and they're taking care of that.
Speaker 3:Conversation was going somewhere different, because you you've got history in white house with with bad administration that ended up in jefferson. That was a.
Speaker 3:That was a unique comment yeah, I remember that one too oh god, I walk in not knowing shit about that situation and I was going to pay my water bill when I lived in Jefferson. I had a TNPA hat on. What was his name? City manager, I know, well, I don't get it. We didn't do nothing wrong. Huckabee, huckabee, yeah. And he said you work for TNPA. I was like you know my chest? Hell, yes, sir, you work there named Clint. I was like, oh God, of course he tells me a different story. But yeah, it was. I'll say this and I'm not speaking for all of y'all, but I think I do the men and women of law enforcement across the state and not dig them out of a hole, because they didn't dig the hole themselves, but to defend what's right. It's not hard to be a good leader but, more importantly, it's not hard to do the right thing. If you do the right thing, you're always going to come out on top. Don't be an ass.
Speaker 1:It's simple and that's where yesterday, when I'm going to consider what happened in Jacksboro yesterday, a victory, oh, 100%. And it does feel good knowing that I went to every city council meeting since the first week of December and let everybody know what we stood for and stood up for our officers, because you know what, sometimes if we're not the one standing up, then who is? Yeah, that's right. Sometimes, if we're not the one standing up, then who is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. And to TO's point, in the last three days somebody asked me why I like this job or why I left being retired. And I wasn't mad, I wasn't burned out, I wasn't anything, I had 23 in Team RS. But I realized and this is probably not the greatest way to say it, but I'm working a homicide where somebody got killed was a freaking dope dealer or you know somebody reporting a burglary that turned out didn't happen, but they needed to scam their insurance. And I had a run of these cases where I'm like I'm not helping. Yeah, I'm not helping anybody, I'm helping a bunch of freaking criminals. Criminals, yeah. And I lost my passion because I'm like dude, these victims aren't freaking victims. And at TMPA I'm helping the good guys again. I'm fighting a good fight now and it's funny you brought up about your honor to do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because literally in the last couple days I don't know if it was a phone call or at a meeting or something. Somebody asked me that and I'm like I lost my passion, man.
Speaker 3:And I'll echo on that. I don't think we've ever lost our passion for serving our communities. But I do think that you know you look at the state and how big Texas is and it's a pinky print compared to the voice and the impact that we as a team not single-handedly, not, tony, you Clint me, it's a team effort, that man. We make such a big impact and I want to be a part of that. I want to be so proud to be at the state level, even national level. I mean you just got through assisting FOP with passing some legislation that benefits all cops across the United States, so I don't need more part of that right, I mean kicking doors and putting handcuffs on. I don't think any of us will ever not miss those days you being in Garland, probably a little more physical than me and Tony, but nonetheless we will never lose that drive. Yep, agree, 100. Well, you got anything else? Peace off. Memorial is april 20.
Speaker 3:It's changed to saturday now I'll put that right here, uh, on the screen of when that is. If you've never been texas peace off memorial, I encourage you to to it. To attend Peace Office Memorial, I encourage you to attend. It's an honor to see the families of the fallen here in Texas Attend those things and let it be a reminder of the true sacrifice that these heroes paid, the ultimate sacrifice for this great state. So if you're interested, go in, reach out to us at info at TNPA or communications at TNPAorg. We'll get you all the information.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so April 11 through 13 is Texas Returnal Order of Police Spring Board Meeting in Wichita Falls April 11 through 13.
Speaker 3:Do you have to be a Texas FOP member to attend?
Speaker 2:No, but you can show up and become an FOP member. There you go, we'd love to have you. That was a good one, we're going to have a grapevine. We'll have a grapevine motor officer playing music Friday night.
Speaker 1:I'll go in and give a shout out to his name Willie Lane. Such a good dude.
Speaker 2:Friday night at the Fraternal Order of Police. Texas event April 11-13. April 26 Is Saturday, I'm almost certain. Texas Peace Officer Memorial it's on Saturday 11 through 13,. April 26th is Saturday, I'm almost certain. Texas Peace Officer Memorial it's on Saturday. It'll be Saturday this year. It's on the grounds of the Texas Capitol. Beautiful, we have a lot of people that aren't in law enforcement.
Speaker 1:We'd love to see you.
Speaker 2:Come hang out.
Speaker 1:It is absolutely. I think everybody should see that, not just police officers, but I think every peace officer in Texas should go and a lot of them have never seen it don't even know about it.
Speaker 3:You know, what's crazy is that you ask some of the and I've asked some of the widows that have attended, cops people and even me myself. I can't tell you who all from TMPA was there, but I damn sure can tell you what all patches I remember. Oh yeah, you know what I'm saying and if I see it you know damn sure the families of the Fallen see that. But, willie Lane, it's a Sunday afternoon. I've got some family in Grapevine, one in particular, aunt Mitch. I grew up with it's a whole other story.
Speaker 3:And I get a text from Willie Lane that says do you know this guy? He says you call him Aunt Mitch and it was a picture of him and Willie on a selfie drinking a beer. Oh that's funny and just a good dude, just a great, great, great guy.
Speaker 2:He is no better people, no better people.
Speaker 3:Yep, agree. Anyway, you got anything else. Tony, I don't man. Well, you've already answered the rapid fire. Being on the podcast, it's always a pleasure having you on. I know you have an open invite anytime you want to come on or jump on or got an issue.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I love it, it's always a good time.
Speaker 3:What was the best episode ever on Blue Grin? Probably episode 23. I think I was on that one. That's awesome. Well, hey you guys, take care, stay safe. If you guys need anything, please reach out to us at either fieldreps at tmpaorg or communications at tmpaorg and we can certainly assist you. God bless you, stay safe and, as always, may God bless Texas. We're out, thank you. Thank you, I'll see you next time.
