The Heart of Money
Join financial counselor, Christ follower, and founder of the Center for Financial Discipleship, Courtney Markley as she takes on tough money questions and delivers actionable guidance. Courtney's gentle but straightforward approach creates a safe, nonjudgmental space for people to talk about their money challenges. After coaching for several years, Courtney understands that money stress is usually a symptom of a deeper problem. Her approach to money will expand your understanding of how to succeed financially. You will gain tools needed to improve your money mindset while becoming someone who can have deeper, Christ-centered money discussions. Join Courtney in her mission to change the way we talk about money, one conversation at a time.
The Heart of Money
Finding God's Purpose in Our Wealth
In this episode Courtney interviews Dan Schilling, a father of seven who has been in the Christian financial ministry space for over 25 years. Dan helps us uncover some new perspectives on money and generosity that we can't wait to share with you.
Have you ever wondered why God has blessed you with more than you need? It's a challenging subject, but we aren't here to shy away from the tough conversations. Dan's personal experiences and insights bring a fresh understanding to the table and encourage us to view money in a whole new light.
I'm Courtney Markley and this is the Heart of Money. Talking about money can be really hard and uncomfortable, but it doesn't need to be. The problem is, we're taught to think about money in terms that are too much like science, with rules and regulations, and not enough like psychology, with emotions and nuance. Join me on my mission to change the way we talk about money, one conversation at a time. Welcome everyone. I'm so excited that you are joining us today on the Heart of Money With me. I have a very special guest and a new friend of mine, dan Schilling. Welcome, dan.
Speaker 2:Hey, courtney, it is a pleasure. Thank you for having me today.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm so, so glad that you get to join us. Hey, before we dive in, because you know, dan and I are ones where we can just jump on it and we can talk about money and God and all of these awesome things for hours, and we've proved that many times already, haven't we, dan? Yes, yes, yes, not a problem. Yes, but before we just dive on in, why don't you introduce yourself to our audience a little bit? Tell us what is it like on a daily basis to be you?
Speaker 2:Yeah well, my wife would probably have an alternate opinion of some of this. What it's like to be me. So we have seven sons been married for 26 years this past year, and so our boys seven sons range from age 25 down to eight. So, as you can imagine, life has always got something going on, as you know too, having a couple children as well, and so I think the most important thing that we've been entrusted is these disciples that are in our own backyard to be trained. So that's really our passion has always been about being faithful as a husband and wife and as a father and a mother. That's our biggest objective and goal every day is are we accomplishing those things In the light of obviously being the center of God's will for our life? So we've been in ministry pretty much our whole adult life.
Speaker 2:I served with Crown Financial Ministries for first portion of my career. I was a Christian, actually school administrator before that, and we had started on nonprofit then with Crown, and then we went with Compass Finances Gatsway. Both of those organizations were started by Howard Dayton, who, if you're in any of the space that deals with money, folks know Howard, and so we were impacted by Crown Bible for the years ago and really, according to what it did was bring revelation to an area of our life that I say when we dealt with every day. The majority of our decisions were based on it, but I was completely ignorant to what God's word had to say about a topic that I'm dealing with every day. The majority of my decisions, they thought. But I didn't know. And I've heard about tithing. You know I've been probably tithing since I was five.
Speaker 2:So I grew up with a family and my dad, farmer, mom, taught school, you know. So we were frugal, careful with money and so, you know, we didn't spend more than we earned. And so I'm thinking, when I went into that Bible, saying like I'm going to be able to tell all these stupid people who can't figure out you know what's two plus two, you know like this isn't that hard. Don't spend more than you're in save. You know all these things. But really what happened was I was exposed significantly like gosh. The Bible is so much saying these scriptures are not dealing with the how tos, they're dealing with me and my heart and my perspective, and the biggest one is you, I'm sure talk about here a lot is about God's ownership, absolutely. And that paradigm shift and said it's easy to say the God owns it all until you ask you for the keys. And so this journey I've been the hardest thing we've ever been on and gone through, but it's been the most rewarding as well.
Speaker 1:I believe, and from just a few weeks, that we've known each other. I can tell you, listeners, that Dan is one who really walks the talk, and so I'm excited to have him here and really help disciple us, if you don't mind, dan, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, share some of that wisdom because, like, exactly like you're saying, you know you were in the financial ministry space for a long time but then, once you started getting down deeper, you recognize, okay, this is not a math issue or an information issue, it's really a heart issue and what you do is something that you're just uniquely gifted at. It's clear that God has absolutely blessed you in this space. Is you're able to unpack some of these Bible stories for us and make it feel very real and tangible and really appeal to that heart versus our head? One of the Bible stories we were just talking about I would love for you to expand on it today for our listeners is the story of Cain and Abel, which typically isn't a story that comes to mind when we're starting to talk about generosity and the importance of you know, God's ownership and all of these things. But let's dive into it. I've kind of teed it up for you, Dan. I'm going to let you kind of take the reins and I'll jump in as necessary.
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny, I use my phone for the Bible. To get some of my technical issues, I'm using my phone. I'm like where's my phone? I need to get full my Bible verse out here we did.
Speaker 1:We had massive technical issues.
Speaker 2:before I start today, the context of the passage and I'm bringing it up here is Genesis 4. And so obviously, this is early on in the story of the scripture. We're talking about these two sons of Adam and Genesis 4, cain and Abel. And I think what's always intrigued me when we think about giving and generosity, the issue is always like a purpose. I'm an inquisitive person by nature, and so my relationship with my heavenly father is inquisitive, and I think it's okay to ask him questions. It's not okay to question him Like God, why did you do that? Like questioning his authority or why? But asking him questions like well, why was that? And so, as I got into this space years ago and was just, you know, going through God's word over and over and over, and I look at this passage, I start asking these questions, which was why did God have them bring an offering in the first place? Was God hungry? No, was God in need? No, was there any poor on the earth that needed to take care of the poor? No, was there the church or the temple or the synagogue? No, so, of all the reasons why we talk about giving and generosity, they didn't exist here. So why, god, did you have them bring an offering? Yes, and I can't prove this, you know, specifically when you look right at this text. But I can't.
Speaker 2:I think, as you look through the totality of the scriptures, that here's why I believe that God had them do it, because he knew that you and I and many of us who would be listening, they have this tendency. As soon as God gives me something and I'm kind of curling my hands around, you know, like this pen, like it becomes mine and my heart moves from him. Being enough, my heavenly Father, our Jehovah Jire, our provider, that he's enough that we start moving our heart and our affection and our love and our trust over to the thing in which he entrusted to us and him, knowing, you know, he's the Alpha and the Omega, knowing that he sees the beginning and the end of all of us and all of our story, knowing that that was going to be an issue for all of us. And so he says to these two young men to bring in, which you can deduct from the scripture. They tell them to bring their best and we see that Abel does Right Because he's like good job, son, you brought your best.
Speaker 2:But Cain gives some distinction to his offering and what he says, that Cain brought some. So it's kind of like well, let's see, I got a little bit left over here, a little bit over here. And God essentially says to him you know, cain, if you do what's right, you know it would go well with you. Because Cain's all upset, he's kind of dejected, you know, as the scripture says from this. And then he says to him says, if you do what's right, you know, but sin is crouching at your door, you really start to see.
Speaker 2:I think what the essence of sin is is my desire to do things my way. In its essence, I don't want to do it God's way, I want to do it in the opposition or I want to do it in my way. You know Zia talks about that. His ways are higher than I already raised. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. And so God was trying to say Cain, son, I love you so much, but sin, or this desire for you to do things your way, is eager to control you. It's going to get you up around the neck and you have to now subdue it, you know so it won't become your master, this desire for you to do things. And I think, courtney, we may have shared this in our conversation before.
Speaker 2:But I think this is where I really start seeing that that spirit of Cain, or that heart of Cain still exists in most of us today, which essentially says this don't tell me what to do with my stuff, I earned it, I deserve it. And again you go back and say God, knowing that we're going to put our heart and trust in it, and this is what he wants for us is that the stuff doesn't become central. So the desire for us to share or to bring the offering people say well, that's Old Testament stuff. This precedes the law. So it's not under something if it precedes something, right. So it wasn't the law issue, it was a hard issue. Tithing just actually later put this concept, you know, in the law, if you will, but the desire of God's heart was always there before it. So it's a core principle that God wants for us and you see it right from the very beginning.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I love how you frame this in the curious nature that you take to this text, because I think when we're taught about giving and we're taught about generosity from this you know Christian viewpoint normally my mind goes to like sure, there's other people who need it more than me, right, like why wouldn't I give this money? You know, there's other people who I can bless through the abundance, right, and so why wouldn't I give, why wouldn't I do these things? But then when you start to frame it and say, well, you know, they were offering sacrifices, when those sacrifices, made out of technically been used quote unquote for anything, right, they weren't necessarily giving it to other people to feed it or doing these other things. And so it gets me to start to think okay, not only is God asked me, you know, to do this thing, but he's asking me to do this thing, to become generous and to give these things in this way, because it does something to me. Yes, and again, it comes more from that heart posture.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And you can see this also when we read in the scripture about the Macedonians and Paul's. You know the out of their extreme poverty. Now, if you and I put somebody in that context today, there's countries around the world and nations. We say, oh yeah, they're an extreme poverty. But it says out of their extreme poverty, their desire, their willingness to share or that which they had was so great that they said, oh God, we want to participate. And so you say, wait a minute, that wasn't because of abundance, right, it wasn't because, like well, hey, now I've got mine, I should help somebody else. It was the heart of God inside of them saying I want to participate in the things of God's kingdom, I want to be in alignment with him. I want the resources that's what I've been entrusted to be in alignment with the kingdom vision and purpose that they were given for.
Speaker 2:And that it's not just. You know, many times we look at our money. You know, in our life sometimes like hey, I'm going to work, work, work and get enough money and I'm going to save and I'm going to have this and I'm going to have this. It's like we just try to like figure I'm going to get enough money so I can work, work, work and then get through the weekend and die on Tuesday. I mean that literally, but like we're missing the purpose and that we're not here just for the goal to accumulate wealth, or even if we have to live in extreme poverty, the goal is why did God give it to me?
Speaker 2:And Andy Stanley and this quote he said years ago that we have to ask ourselves. The question is this why did God give me more than I need? And so even these Macedonians, if you say, out of that frame where they were asking God, why did you give us more than we need? It's like, well, we can be dead tomorrow. Why don't we use this to advance God's kingdom while we're here, right? And so when we start thinking through that framework and that positioning of our heart, okay, god, what am I here for? You know and again, please for listeners, I'm not a poverty gospel. I don't believe that the goal is to live with nothing and that that's what God desire for us. In no way. But I do know, being in this ministry for a number of years now, going through scriptures, that this is a fundamental core issue of the heart that has existed from the foundation, going back to Genesis four and that same heart issue problem the gain that was still in my heart and probably many of us as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, thank you so much. So let's talk about this more for the people who might be struggling with the heart issue. Again, it's not necessarily a lack of information. Most of us, you know, when I say yes, I'm talking about for those who identify as Christians and believers. For those of us who go to church, you know, we're taught these things. It's not necessarily a lack of information. Right, we're taught to tie, they're taught to give generously, whatever it is. But then there's a lack of follow through for a lot of us. To throw out some statistics so the average churchgoer they give two and a half percent of their income.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Right. And so, dollar for dollar, we actually give less today than they did during the Great Depression. Yeah, we're more affluent than ever and we give less than ever. Yes, and so alarm bells are going off. Something's happening, and it's not a lack of information, because we have a ton of information. Yes, so it's a heart issue. So can you speak to those out there who might be listening and recognize? They say, yeah, that's me, like I get that, I'm supposed to be giving and maybe I even have that desire, but then there's that lack of follow through, like something's not quite connecting those dots. Yeah, can you speak more to that person?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think again we got to go back and say what creates heart issues? And you say, well, what creates back issues? Well, something's out of alignment. You know, right, you know my hips are out of alignment, I got something else. So that pain is because I'm not in alignment. So my heart has pain, if you will, when it's not in right alignment with God's perfect design in his will for our life.
Speaker 2:And so what happens at least I can speak to my own journey was that I didn't understand, first of all, really the concept of God's ownership. Now, I may have heard it, you know, in church growing up, probably since I was five. I've been tithing since I was five, like so these things might have been there, but I wasn't always paying attention. So maybe I missed it, but I just don't remember anybody ever talking about it. And so then I can start to agree with it from a head standpoint. But then, as I started going in this journey and helping other people, I felt like God began to say this to me was then you talk about my ownership and it's easy to say that I own it on until I ask you for the keys, right, I mean, it's easy. All you have to. All yours, lord, all yours. Okay, now those keys right there for that vehicle, now give it away. It's like wait, what? Not that that's mine, yeah. So there's things that we can agree with, like, oh yeah, jesus of Lord. Yes, you know he's the owner. Yes, we should tie the boat until something else you know comes up against, something that's going to push me further than like, oh. So I think the ownership is big.
Speaker 2:I think one of the other main heart issues, at least in my own journey, is trust. You know, I can say that I trust him, and I said it's easy to say that we trust God until we're put in a place where we have to trust him. And the honest truth from my own journey is I am typically always trying to find and position and put myself in a place where I don't have to trust him. I want to have enough in my bank accounts and my savings or whatever. You know I don't have a retirement right now, but I mean all those things and it's not that I'm anti-retirement, it's just not where God's had us in our journey. Is it wrong to have them? No, but the problem is is when my heart is looking to find my hope and trust in something other than Jehovah, jireh, god, the provider and the majority of my life.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to position myself materially so that I don't have to come to him for my daily bread. I don't have to, and I think this is where James, when he gives us a warning, he says don't you know that? You know God has chosen to honor the poor and to humble the rich. I remember reading this years ago again quid it? I'm like God. Why did James write that? It doesn't make sense. Like I never meet, the poor people say I'm so honored, I have nothing. I don't see the rich people saying man, I'm so humbled, I have everything. So, like what was James seeing Lord? What was he when he was writing that? What was going on?
Speaker 2:I felt like he said well, let me ask you this question when you're poor and you have nowhere else to go, where do you go for what you need? Where do people go? They come to me. But when you have more than you need, where do you go? You go to yourself, in your own accounts, your own wealth, and so then that starts to become your security Right. And years ago I had a friend who's a financial advisor. I said the problem is you're trying to sell something that's not for sale. And he said what is it? I said securities.
Speaker 2:Securities Like you can't sell security. There's only one thing that is secure and I know we can say our salvation, but it's him. It's he is our essence and it's what he always wanted. And you can see this issue, you can go look at Deuteronomy 8, the whole context. That passage has got to think. This is what's going to happen. You're going to go from Egypt and I'm taking to the desert and I'm going to take you to this place.
Speaker 2:But here's the warning when you get there, don't let your heart, when you have nice homes, when you have all the stuff you need, don't let your heart shift from the provider to the provision. And so you see the same graph one time, like it's like this whole cyclical process that we just keep going to this thing over and over and over. Our heart moves from our trust in Jehovah Jireh, the provider, to the provision. And once our heart goes toward the provision and God would typically throughout history, he take them, strip them, they'd have nothing. And then now there's nothing, that's, oh God, please come back. And then he provide, you know, and then they'd get to that place where they had more than needed, like, ok, we don't need you anymore, god. And then, like, this whole cyclical pattern happens over and over and over throughout the scriptures.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so funny that you mentioned Deuteronomy 8. As you were talking earlier, I was thinking of this passage because I was actually just reading it before we got on the call today and I was like, oh, I'm going to read Deuteronomy 8. And then there you go. But it's true. Let me take a moment and read through some of the scripture here, because I think it's so applicable to this conversation here. Absolutely, Deuteronomy 8. So again, give us a little backstory if you wouldn't mind. Actually, you know what's going on right now in history. Where are the ancient Israelites and why is God talking to them in this specific manner?
Speaker 2:Yes. So Moses is giving the instruction before he's done and, essentially, you know you're about to enter into a new season. We came from Egypt, we came through the desert. In early part of the drama he says I brought you to the desert to test your character. And you say what character trait was he testing them? He was testing. Are you going to trust me? And you say so. How do you deduct that?
Speaker 2:Well, because every day they didn't provide anything for themselves and their food came from God Sovereignly, came from the sky Right, and if they tried to collect more than they needed for that day, it would actually stink and rot, and I've done some study and research on this.
Speaker 2:It said, actually, that some believe that the odor, the rottenness of that manna would smell so bad the most putrid smell you could do, and it would be like everybody around you would know, and that the essence of it was that this is how mistrust, the aroma of mistrust, is before the nostrils of God, that I don't want you to try to store up more than you need.
Speaker 2:I want you to come to me for your daily bread. That it's hard of the father was right here in the early part, I said I will take care of you if you'll come to me, if you'll just put your hope and trust in me, and so he was trying to establish this as a baseline for these people. But this is what's going to happen, though I am going to take you to this next place and you will prosper, and what's probably going to happen in the prospering is your heart's going to move away from that goal of having that relationship that you know, that I trust. The only day that we see reprivate a morning, it was the day before the Sabbath, when he said, ok, that day you can collect two days, you know right, and it won't run and no problems with it. But I believe, courtney, he really was trying to establish this essence of the core part of our hearts, as I trust you.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, thank you for that set up. That's perfect. So I'm going to start reading. I encourage you guys read the whole chapter for the second time. I'm going to start in verse 10. When you have eaten and are satisfied, praise the Lord, your God, for the good land he has given you. Be careful that you do not forget the Lord, your God, failing to observe his commands, his laws and his decrees that I have given you this day. Otherwise, when you eat and are satisfied, when you build fine houses and settle down, and when your herds and flocks grow large and your silver and gold increase and all you have is multiplied, then your heart will become proud and you will forget the Lord, your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think that's that same thing can exist today.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely Absolutely. You know we're talking about. You know going to that daily for provision and trusting and him. And you know, if you continue to read on in the scripture and do it around me, a it's essentially saying you're going to get so caught up in your own wealth and all of this abundance that I've provided for you, and you're going to get it so twisted in your head that you're going to think that you, that you worked to get this, yeah, when really it's, everything good comes from me, right, comes from the Father, yeah, and it's interesting to go back to something you were saying earlier.
Speaker 1:As far as you know, he wants us to be dependent on him. He doesn't want us to try to fight and gain our own security. Yeah, you know, most people do that through money in one way, shape or form, right? Yeah, and, interestingly enough, when you talk to people about what their ideal retirement looks like or what their financial goals are, whatever it is that they're striving for in that moment, it's normally more safety, more security. Those are the two things that we're all aiming for, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, right.
Speaker 1:And it's not while I'm striving for daily dependence on the Lord. I think it's really really hard for middle-class folks to understand a really good grasp of what this looks like.
Speaker 2:Well, and that the propensity of our heart is not new. Right Again, cain's issue. Don't tell me what to do with my stuff. I want to have my hope and trust in it. Right, I mean, I don't think he would say consciously, but God, knowing this, is what's going to happen. And so Abel does it right and goes like, oh, good job. But so here we are. We're still doing the same thing. You know, you can look at Genesis there. You can look and do the around me aid. You can look throughout the book of Judges or the Kings. You know all the cyclical patterns.
Speaker 2:The New Testament you know the Pharisees says that the Pharisees, who dearly love their money, scoff at Jesus when he talked about these things around money, right? So this is a big issue and if we don't get to the root of what the issue is, I don't trust him and that that mistrust in him. Like any of us as parents, years ago I got to say this one part. I know we got to get kind of wrapped up for today, but years ago I felt like the Lord was dealing with this with me and he said could you imagine when you're only your boys, if they came to you at breakfast time and they were crying and sobbing and say, daddy, you're not going to feed me, you're not going to care for me, and he'd you take him. Say, yes, I am, son, I love you. And you take him and you show him the cupboard and you got food, you got more than what you need for the day. And say, son, I love you, I will always take care of you, don't worry, go play.
Speaker 2:And he comes back at lunch and he cries and he's doing the same oh, daddy, you're not gonna feed me, you're not gonna. And then he comes back in at dinner, does the same thing. And every time I go play, go play. How long do you think it would take before you get frustrated? I'm like, shoot, I wouldn't make it to lunch. Would you knock it off? You know like I'm trustworthy, like right, but none of us like to be. Questions that were trustworthy.
Speaker 1:Yeah right.
Speaker 2:Nobody like you're not. I don't trust you, especially as a parent. For goodness sake, like if your children really like I don't trust you on a trust. But this is the way it is with you, with me, and it's been going on a long time, like over and over, and this is according to the scripture. He says that his mercies are new every morning. That I felt like said, I don't hold you in contempt for yesterday's hard attitude. I don't hold you in contempt even though you don't trust me and you keep coming back to your desire you want to right and recognize that I'm weak. I can't do this on my own. I don't have the strength inside of me to say, oh, I can do this. No, I can't. I need him every day to help me, to put my hope and trust. The problem is from the majority of us is we're not willing to submit and surrender ourselves to be in a place of needing to trust him. Yeah, like, like it sounds good, but I don't want to have to like. I got to trust you for my daily, but I have to trust you from our vision. And so this is again.
Speaker 2:This is one of those heart issues of wrestling, you know, especially in where we live in the world as Americans. If you're listening, you know if you're outside there, but you know like it's hard. I think everybody wrestles whether, no matter where you're from, but just like this poll that I got to have, I got to, you know, I'd be stupid if I didn't. I mean people would say you know, like what are you doing? You don't you know, can't be foolish. You got to, you know. So all these things are this wrestle point for us around this area of trust.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well. Thank you so much for taking time today and really pouring out your heart and sharing with us some of these things that God's been speaking to you about and working very deeply in your heart and your daily walk. And, if you could, can you pray us out? Can you pray for the person who's listening and they're recognizing? You know, maybe I'm not trusting God as deeply as I thought it was, or maybe I need to start taking that step of faith right. Yeah, coming with more open hands and surrendering more to him. Could you pray for that person right now?
Speaker 2:Well, father, we come before you knowing that we're broken, that we can't do this on our own strengths, that you are truly Jehovah, jire, not just the provider of all of our material needs, but the one who gives us insight, wisdom, discernment, strength to obey, to follow you. And so I pray for each of us today, that you give us the strength, the willingness, the courage to follow you, that your ways are better, your thoughts are higher, that you are a good, good Father, that your desire isn't to do anything but for the good of us. And so help us today just to take that step, whatever it is, that we can hear your voice and follow you. You've already proven yourself as faithful, as good, and so help us to live that out today by the power of your Holy Spirit. We love you. Thank you for this time together. Give you thanks in Jesus' name, amen.
Speaker 1:Amen. Thank you so much, dan, and thank you all for listening. I hope today's message has sunk in. Continue praying, continue going to God and asking for His grace and His help in this, because it's only by His good grace that we're able to accomplish anything, amen. So thank you all. Again, thank you for listening. If today's conversation has blessed you, share our podcast with a friend and if you have a money question, email me at Courtney at marglicoachinggroupcom. I'm Courtney Margley and this has been the Heart of Money.