The Heart of Money
Join financial counselor, Christ follower, and founder of the Center for Financial Discipleship, Courtney Markley as she takes on tough money questions and delivers actionable guidance. Courtney's gentle but straightforward approach creates a safe, nonjudgmental space for people to talk about their money challenges. After coaching for several years, Courtney understands that money stress is usually a symptom of a deeper problem. Her approach to money will expand your understanding of how to succeed financially. You will gain tools needed to improve your money mindset while becoming someone who can have deeper, Christ-centered money discussions. Join Courtney in her mission to change the way we talk about money, one conversation at a time.
The Heart of Money
Embracing Intentional Giving in the Age of Automation: A conversation with Rodney Ross
For many Christians, the act of giving seems more transactional than spiritual. In the age of automatic (online) payments, giving can simply feel like paying another bill.
Join me and Rodney Ross, generosity leader at Life Church, as we uncover the emotional journey behind each financial gift, transforming what often seems like mundane transactions into profound celebrations of faith.
Rodney, with his deep appreciation for the narratives that numbers can tell, invites us into a world where every contribution is recognized as a sacred footprint in someone's life story, showcasing the true richness of generosity and living life with Christ.
This episode promises to shift any discomfort around money talks into opportunities for connection and spiritual formation.
Links from episode:
Open.Life.Church
Go to: markleycoachinggroup.com to see available Bible studies, courses, or apply for 1-1 coaching.
I'm Courtney Markley, and this is the Heart of Money. Talking about money can be really hard and uncomfortable, but it doesn't need to be. The problem is, we're taught to think about money in terms that are too much like science, with rules and regulations, and not enough like psychology, with emotions and nuance. Join me on my mission to change the way we talk about money, one conversation at a time. Hello everyone, and welcome to the Heart of Money podcast. I am your host, courtney Markley, and joining me today. I have a special guest for you, rodney Ross. Welcome, rodney.
Speaker 2:Hey, courtney, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk with you today.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so excited. The treat is truly all mine. I can't wait for our audience to get to know you a bit better. So, Rodney, you and I met at the Christian Stewardship Network Forum just a few months ago. It seems like a lifetime ago that I got to soak up the sun in Florida for a hot second, before returning back to cloudy Columbus Ohio.
Speaker 2:It was a wonderful time.
Speaker 1:It was. It was so wonderful and you are, I would say, a pillar in that community. You're a great lighthouse for people and just a wealth of knowledge in the Christian stewardship space. So for those of you, this is probably your first time getting introduced to Rodney. Rodney gets to watch people be generous and giving to the Lord all day long, Isn't that right, Rodney?
Speaker 2:That's exactly right. Yes, it's pretty special. I feel like I have the best job in the world.
Speaker 1:And I tell you what. You guys will hear it really soon. But Rodney's personality and demeanor he's just the nicest guy. I feel like if you ever want a bear hug, come to Rodney. He's just the nicest guy. I feel like if you ever want a bear hug like, come to Rodney. He's that guy for you. He's just such a sweetheart and it shows just. You get to do something that's so fun. You have such a love and a passion for it and you work with Life Church, which is a growing, very booming church here in America. It's 45 different locations in 12 different states. Your kids, 45 different locations in 12 different states and you get to work with pastors and congregations every day in the generosity and giving space.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right. It is so special, so fun working with pastors as they get to lead people in the space. It's so fun getting to see just different locations that kind of all have their own personalities. It's really fun. It feels like the best job in the world.
Speaker 1:I love it. It's so interesting to hear you say that, because, as I'm thinking about wow 45 campuses and thinking about all the pastors and the teams and all the church members a lot of leaders that I talk to feel a bit stressed just having to work with one location or one church and you get to manage 45. And yet you say what a joy. I love doing this, and so I feel like you have certainly tapped into something here, and this joyful giving, this joyful generosity and being able to talk about this all day You've been able to tap into this in a really unique way, and so today we're going to be leaning into this conversation of how do we make giving something that, for a lot of people, feels very transactional. How do we make giving from transactional into more of a spiritual experience? I'm excited to dive in with you. Before we get there, though, I would love just to learn a little bit more about you. So I know that you are a husband and obviously a Christ follower. You're a dad and a very proud granddad.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, absolutely. We have a one-year-old granddaughter and it's been a joy both watching her, but also there's just something special about watching your child turn into a parent, and we've really been enjoying that too.
Speaker 1:Oh, I bet that is so, so special. I love that for you. And just tell us a little bit more about yourself, Ronnie. What does a normal day look like for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so most days look very different from each other. It just kind of depends. So, you know, some days involve a lot of content. You know where we're writing content. Maybe we're writing articles about generosity or, you know, creating some type of content. Other days are more around data. I'm kind of a data nerd and I really enjoy data because data tells a story and I love being curious and just digging into data and trying to see the story. And so often I found God is trying to show us something through data. He's trying to draw our attention to something, and so a lot of my days are filled with looking at data. And then what I really enjoy is connecting with people, and I get to connect with a lot of pastors again at all of our locations and really just help them understand data. Think about how they're inviting people to join us in ministry through their giving and just all of the ways that we're leading people in the area of generosity and that's so fun.
Speaker 1:I love it. Who would have thought the guy who loves to talk about giving also loves data? Right, but I love how you frame that. You know God's trying to tell us something or shine a light on something through the data, and so what is it that we're seeing and how can we really use it to our advantage to shine a light on the things that God's caring about?
Speaker 2:That's right. It really is surprising. I never dreamed I would enjoy data I didn't used to. I was intimidated by spreadsheets and just data in general. But God has other plans and often it's not what I expect. It's always better. And so God just drew me into something that I never dreamed I would enjoy, and really recognizing how data can impact people was kind of what flipped the switch for me. It was like, oh hey, this actually matters, and one of the sayings that we say often around here is you know, behind every number is a person, every person has a story and every story matters to God, and that helps me keep the big picture data when I'm looking at a lot of numbers. That helps me keep it connected to people and ultimately, connected to our mission to reach people for Christ.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I love that and I feel like we could unpack that for a really long time, and it's essentially what we're leaning into here. Right, how do we go from something that's so transactional, that data point, into something that's more spiritual and it's the story and it's the person and it's the heart that God cares about? I love that. So tell me real quick. You know this is for a lot of leaders this can be a challenging space for them to be in. Yes, but you've been here. You've been doing it now for a long time. So I'm just curious what keeps you here, what keeps you coming back and wanting to engage people in conversations about money which, quite frankly, most people don't enjoy having and am I allowed to say most people don't enjoy having? And am I allowed to say that Most people don't enjoy having it? Or they feel just a little uneasy approaching the subject? I know, with your personality, you make it very comfortable very quickly and you're very engaging and approachable. I'm just curious, in this kind of challenging environment, what gets you coming back?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really is a passion and it's something that God just raised up in me and my family. My family's always been generous. My grandparents modeled it, my parents modeled it and I just have a passion for it from just from my upbringing and getting to see it modeled so well. But I'm really passionate about it not being about the money. That's just something God has grown in me and I feel like just in my life experience. I kind of grew up in a church that was an amazing church, but we didn't talk about money. Well, it always came up when the leadership looked at the budget and saw we were behind budget. Then they had the pastor do a message about giving, which instantly made it about the money, and that just left a really bad taste in my mouth about that, and so my passion has always been helping us lead well in this space and make sure that, as we're talking about it, it's not about the money. It's about connecting people with the heart of God and putting Him first in every area of our lives, including with our finances.
Speaker 1:That's so great. It speaks directly to my heart too, and exactly what we're working on accomplishing with the Heart of Money podcast is helping people understand it's really not about the money at all. That's right, right. God doesn't really care about your money. He doesn't really need it, but that's right. He does care very much about your heart.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right. Yes, and you know you look at how often God talked about money through His Word in the Bible, and just so many times. It's an important topic and so we need to be able to talk about it. Well, and a lot of times we get in our own way, we make it a lot harder and a lot more complicated than it needs to be and we bring some of our own history, our own biases, our own perceptions into the mix. And when we do that, it can make those conversations awkward, and that's part of what brings that hesitancy.
Speaker 2:And just what I've found over the years is usually, when a conversation around generosity is feeling awkward, it's because of me, it's because I'm feeling awkward about it. And so you know, just the more we lean in, the more we recognize hey, it's not about the money, this isn't something I'm trying to get from people, this is something I want for them. That posture just really helps those conversations become more normal and natural, less awkward, and I think that as I talk with pastors, you can see when they get that and when they recognize hey, stepping into this conversation, you're already doing the same types of things. You know, as pastors and leaders, we're really just helping people identify their own next steps and encouraging them to take those next steps, and one of the next potential steps is in the area of generosity putting God first in our finances. And so, as people get that, it's oh okay. This isn't about a money conversation. This isn't fundraising. This is just helping people identify their own next step, coming alongside and encouraging them to take that, because we know when we take our next step toward a closer relationship with Christ, we're going to be blessed, and that's what we want for people.
Speaker 2:We want that blessing in their lives, and I think most of us would say we've experienced joy from being able to be generous and being able to help others and just see God take our offering and use it in amazing ways. That raises joy in us, and boy, I want that joy for other people. I want people to experience that and get to live life to its fullest. God created us to be generous. We're created in His image and he is a generous God, and so when we act on how we were created, we're going to thrive. That's what we want for people. And so keeping that mindset and recognizing hey, this is all about serving others well, this is all about helping them experience some of the joy we've experienced, ultimately to draw into a closer relationship with God. There's no reason for the conversations to be awkward, they're just fun.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's right, and I need to just bring back what you mentioned a moment ago. If your money conversations are feeling awkward, it's probably because you're being awkward. That's right. It's a little something you got to flesh out there, right?
Speaker 2:That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes. And recognizing when we are bringing our own personal biases to a conversation, as we're trying to lead someone in a money conversation.
Speaker 2:That's right, and usually you know when I feel that if I take a moment and figure out, okay, why am I feeling awkward and I start chasing that, usually I can track it down to something like oh, I've shifted my mindset and I'm thinking more about the transactional I'm thinking about could this person write a big check, or something like that. I've gotten off focus, my posture is off or how I'm thinking about it is off. I've stopped thinking about the person and encouraging them to take a next step. Usually I'm able to track it to something that is like that, where I'm missing the mark.
Speaker 1:Very good. So it's a good reminder for our leaders who are listening, to really check your heart posture before engaging in any type of money conversation to say what is my goal here? Is my goal to get a check at the end? Is my goal to draw someone's heart closer to Christ? I'm going to show up a bit differently depending on which one of those I'm leaning into right.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And you know one of the things that is so helpful and it's not always easy to do because we like to take control but if we can let God own the outcome of the conversations, that really helps us stay in that right place and it helps those conversations stay comfortable and not awkward.
Speaker 2:If we're going in and say, god, I don't know what you're going to do with this conversation, but I'm going to be faithful in my part and I'm going to have the conversation and, god, I trust you're going to do the right thing here and you're going to move in this person's life. And this may just be a seed that's planted today that you know years from now somebody else waters and then you do something special with that. If I let God own the outcome, that's the best posture. And you know, if someone does take a step after this conversation and I let God own the outcome, then I'm not going to start being prideful or thinking that I'm doing something really good or really special. And if someone doesn't take any action based on the conversation, then I don't get discouraged or I don't take on that as a weight or doubt if I did what I was supposed to do when I let God own the outcome. Those things take care of themselves.
Speaker 1:That's so good to lean into a bit. And as you're talking, what started to come to mind was not only leaning into that when we are approaching someone about a giving conversation, but also as the giver, yes, when we are giving money and saying, all right, god, I'm going to let you own the outcome of this. It's not on me, right, the outcome's not on me, god, you're in control. But it's more am I responding in faithful obedience and letting God own the outcome? And, just like you said, we might see the fruit come immediately, or it might not happen even in our lifetime. We might not see what's happening as we're writing those checks, as we're giving our money faithfully, really, truly letting God own that outcome and say, all right, I'm not in control.
Speaker 1:That's part of why I think giving is so special. It's because it's this moment of surrender saying I'm not in control of this money. This is yours, lord, here you go. You are in control of this outcome, you are in control of where it's going to go. And so I think that's a piece that we can all lean into, no matter which side of the coin you're typically on, if you're the person who's giving the check or if you're the person who's having the money conversation with someone just letting God own the outcome, and what a beautiful picture I'm getting as both parties are coming to the conversation with that heart posture. All right, god, where are you leading me? To be obedient, how can I respond? And all right, the outcome is yours now.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is so good, Courtney. I really like how you made that personal. For us that's such a good word and you know, when we all come with that posture, then God's able to do what only he can do. We're not getting in His way, we're not messing things up. God's able to execute His perfect plan, whatever that plan is.
Speaker 1:The Heart of Money podcast will return after this brief message of God's dream for your life and your money, and I'm excited to share with you. We have so many tools and resources available for you at markleycoachinggroupcom. So whether you're looking for a Bible study to do with your small group, or you're looking for the flexibility of an online course, or maybe you want the personalized attention of a one-on-one coaching experience, check us out at markleycoachinggroupcom and experience how we draw people closer to Christ, one conversation at a time. So tell me more, as we're leaning into this. I hear I'm sure you do too.
Speaker 1:There's very few people, I would say, who have as many money conversations as I do, but you probably have even trumped me in this area, so you probably hear this just as much, if not more, than I do. But I hear so many people who say you know I give, but it doesn't feel like this intimate moment with Christ. I give, but it just feels like another bill that I'm paying. It doesn't feel like the spiritual connection that I'm getting with God. It feels very transactional. Yes, have you experienced people coming to you and sharing similar things with you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we really have, and I've actually experienced that personally. One of the things in the financial transaction world is financial transactions are easier than ever. You can do that almost without having to think about it, and a lot of places have automated or recurring or scheduled giving, and that's what I've done. My giving is set up on an automated basis and what I recognized was I wasn't taking a moment at all to make that a spiritual experience. It had become transactional and it was automatic and it would process and I'd get a receipt and I'd see the receipt go, okay, great.
Speaker 2:But it was kind of that out of sight, out of mind. I wasn't bringing any intentionality to that, and so what my wife and I recognize is we need to make that a spiritual moment. That's our responsibility, and so when we get that automated receipt now we're taking a moment as soon as we can get together and we're looking at that. We're saying God, please accept this offering, please bless it, please use it to accomplish your will, and we're making that spiritual moment even in an automated transaction world. And I think a lot of that responsibility is on us. I don't think we need to be dependent on a church or a pastor or other people to help us create that spiritual moment. I think that that can serve a role, but I think ultimately it's our responsibility to seek God in that.
Speaker 1:I love the intentionality behind what you and your wife are doing and just the cognizance of being aware Okay, we have this coming out, automatic payment. Now we're not paying attention to it as much. We know it's happening, we're glad it's happening, but again kind of out of sight, out of mind. Yes, it's happening, we're glad it's happening, but you know, again kind of out of sight, out of mind, just not being fully in tune with you know the actual actions that you're taking right, because it's happening kind of under the surface a bit.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:I love the intentionality and coming together with your wife and saying, all right, now we're going to sit down, we're going to pray about it. This is our prompt right, this is our reminder. I have a lot of people who have come and asked me, you know, should I give automatic payments to the church? Should I, you know, bring them a check? Should I bring them cash? You know what's going to be the thing that works, and I'm sure we have a lot of listeners wondering the same thing, and I think it's such a personal question I don't think there's one right way to do it. So the first thing I tell people is well, first you got to know yourself.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It is very convenient now that we can give automatically and it helps the folks who might be forgetful. I say very nicely yes.
Speaker 1:Who might say, if I wasn't giving automatically, it might not happen that often or frequently or be as much as I really intended to. So first of all, you know, just kind of know yourself, if you're kind of that forgetful person, maybe you need to keep it on automatic, but use the email confirmations or the reminders, like Rodney and his wife do to then. All right, here's my cue. I just got this in my inbox. We're going to come together and we're going to pray about it now.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Other times our stories we were similar. We had things on automatic payments and I just didn't feel the weight of it leaving our checking account. So we did stop and now we write a check and we bring that in because you know you can even think back. I don't know, I might be dating myself a little bit even, but I don't think it was that long ago, 10, 15 years ago. You know, we would all bring our checks to the bank, you know, and we would deposit them and then we'd get cash back and you know all of these different things. I still remember always having to go to the bank, waiting in line forever to cash my checks, because even ATMs wasn't a big thing back then.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:But you would feel the weight you had physical representation of okay, this is the amount of money I've earned based on the work that I've been doing, and now I want to make sure that I'm stewarding this really well. Well, now, money moves so quickly and it is all digital and it's out of sight, out of mind. So for me, making it again a physical thing that I could look at and touch and feel really helped move the needle to say okay, now this feels a bit more of a sacrifice. This feels like, okay, god, here's what I'm bringing you and I'm bringing it forefront of my mind. And it's almost a little painful to write that check, but in a good way again, right, like I'm just feeling the weight of the gift.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's so good. I love how you talk about that. One of our pastors has a great question that he uses and it's just as he's leading people in the area of generosity. He'll just ask the question hey, when was the last time you gave and felt it? And I think that's such a powerful question because it really engages the heart, it engages the feels and with that automated giving we're not necessarily connecting with those feels, it just happens and, like we've said, out of sight, out of mind, it's not connecting to the heart.
Speaker 2:And that's what God wants. God doesn't need the financial transaction. He wants that spiritual transaction where we're engaging with Him, where our heart, our feelings, our emotions, all of us are engaged with Him. And I love that question. So one of the things that my wife and I also do is we've gotten comfortable with that automated giving because it just automatically comes out, but we look for opportunities to give above and beyond our regularly automated giving, and we try to do that in a way that we're going to feel it. We're giving something else up so that we can give our first and our best to God, and there's just a joy in the sacrificial giving that you have to experience. There's nothing like it.
Speaker 1:Man, I love that. So you guys have almost done like a hybrid option is what I'm hearing right? Yes, yes, I love how you use that Like, okay, we have our baseline giving that we've already predetermined, and then we'll give sacrificially, above and beyond and I want to capture this again in case people missed it A sacrificial giving means that you're giving something up in order to be able to give this gift. We're not giving out of convenience or out of abundance, but more so out of I don't know if lack is the right word, but essentially there's more of an exchange happening, right, because I gave this, we're going to sacrifice, not doing this right, that's right.
Speaker 1:Very good and I think that's something that a lot of people have missed out on, and I love hearing you say how you know everyone needs to experience this joy of sacrificial giving, and I think that's a piece that a lot of people have been missing that there are different levels of giving.
Speaker 1:Essentially, I can't remember who spelled this out for me it was years ago now, so forgive me, I would give you credit, but I don't remember where it came from a book or podcast or something but essentially they said you know, there's different levels to our giving. We can give less than our ability, we can give according to our ability or we can give more, meaning sacrificially. So I think a fun thing to do with people is say okay, where are you at on the giving scale? Just as your pastor said in a different way, when was the last time that you gave and you felt it more along that sacrificial giving? So help people unpack that a little bit more, cause I know that a lot of people come in with the mindset of well, I feel like I'm following the rules. Right, I'm following the rules and I'm doing this thing, so do I really need to be giving anymore? What's the benefit of that right. Help me unpack that a little bit. I know people are thinking it and wondering it, so let's just address it up front.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is such a good thing to process and as I hear that question that processing what I hear is that there's kind of a heart issue here. It's a very different thing to give because you have to versus giving because you want to, and God wants our heart and he wants us to be joyful givers. And giving because you have to doesn't particularly raise that joy. It doesn't bring joy alongside it. You're checking that box, You're doing what you're supposed to do. That doesn't raise joy. It doesn't connect with the heart in the same way. And so when we give, and we give sacrificially, that's what connects with that joy. That's where it's the God. I am so in love with you, I'm so passionate, I'm so thankful that you gave first that my natural response is I want to give to you and that's that joyful that we want for everyone to experience and I hope people experience that like I have. It's so cool.
Speaker 1:Oh man, tell me more. How would you say your life is different? And you said you've grown up in a generous family. This was modeled for you really well. So I don't know if you necessarily have a clear before and after, but just how has God grown you and your wife towards Him as you're experiencing this sacrificial giving?
Speaker 2:You know, I think one of the connections that I made at some point was just reading through Scripture and reading where Jesus is being questioned hey, what's the greatest commandments? And I just love how simple Jesus made it. You know we tend to complicate things a lot more than they need to be, but Jesus just said real simply hey, love God, love others. Really simple, those are the greatest commandments. And when I was reading that, I just connected to so many things, including generosity, and I recognized, you know, when I'm giving, what I'm saying, you know, is God. You're important, god, I love you, I care about you. Here is an offering to you as the fruit of that relationship, of that loving God well and then recognizing that when I do that, god actually uses that giving to reach and care for others so many times. And that just really connected to me and brought it down to a really simple level that I could understand and not being overcomplicated, and that was so helpful in thinking about just that generosity choice of hey, am I going to be a consumer, am I going to take my resources, am I going to spend them only on me, or am I going to be a person that actually cares about others, like Jesus modeled for me. And as I stepped into and as I stepped into that personally, rather than just doing it because that's what my family did as I stepped into that personally, I started experiencing that joy and just feeling the fruits of that type of lifestyle where it's not all about me, it's about others, and God just does something really cool in that space.
Speaker 2:When I'm self-focused, when I'm thinking about me, suddenly my problems start getting bigger, and it's not that they're truly bigger, but that I perceive them to be bigger. I'm thinking about them more often, I'm putting more weight on them. I'm letting that distract me from the great things that are going on in my life. But when I'm others-focused, when I'm looking outward and thinking about others, suddenly my problems and my challenges and my circumstances all feel smaller. They just aren't as significant, and that's just a product of where we choose to focus. And so the act of giving is part of having that outward focus, that others focus. That brings so many blessings as well.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Focus that brings so many blessings as well. That's so good. So what I'm hearing you say, rodney, is that one of the ways that we can make giving, moving from this transactional to this spiritual experience, is really laying our life down, and our need for control, our need to be number one right, yes, because that's my natural inclination is like I'm gonna think about me and take care of me first. We're all wired this way. I don't think I'm the only one, but laying that down, surrendering that and say no, I received the love of jesus, I've received his grace and now I can make a decision yes to love people well, like he's loved me well, which means putting other people first, prioritizing their needs above my own.
Speaker 1:So in connecting some of these dots I'm just processing out loud as we're moving from transactional to spiritual giving, I think there is this big heart component in moving from the convenient to the sacrificial.
Speaker 2:Yes, I agree. I think that's just so important. There's just something really special. It's next level joy when you're giving sacrificially and God just blesses that.
Speaker 1:It's true, like you, and I know it's true, we've experienced it in our own lives, yes, and so I think all we can keep saying to other people is go out and try it, try it for yourself and see what happens. Again, we're not preaching, you know, any type of like prosperity gospel where you know God's just going to you know, magically, you know your bank account's going to grow like crazy. That's not what we're saying at all. But as we start to focus on God and the people that he loves the people around us, right, which is everyone Our problems tend to decrease. They feel smaller, right? Yeah, our problems tend to decrease. They feel smaller, right, and our love, the love for the people around us, the compassion that we have for the people around us, tends to grow and get bigger, and so that's when our giving starts to lead to the heart transformation, when again, we lay it down and we start to love and have compassion more for the people around us and be less self-focused yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2:You know, as were talking, something came to mind and really thinking about the key component of the transaction is the amount. And you know, if we're thinking about our giving in terms of a transaction, the natural tendency is to focus on the amount of the transaction and that really, in a lot of ways, misses the mark because it's not about the money, it's not about the dollar amount, it's about putting God first, it's about being generous, it's about that sacrificial giving and sometimes I think, especially if you're processing and considering giving to an organization like a church I'll just use Life Church as an example. Some people consider us a large church, lots of locations, lots of attenders. We look at ourselves as a micro church with a mega vision and when you look at us in terms of the need of how many people don't know Jesus yet, we are super, super small and we actually post our financials on our website and if someone were to look at our financials, they would see a lot of zeros and the tendency is to think, oh, wow, life Church doesn't need my money and so you know, I've got $20 that I'm considering giving, but Life Church doesn't need my $20. Well, that's actually right. God is providing all of the resources we need to accomplish what he wants us to accomplish. But you're thinking about that as a financial transaction between you and Life Church, and what we're really talking about is a spiritual transaction between you and God. And if you shift that mindset to hey, I'm not giving to Life Church, I'm giving to God, then suddenly that $20 matters immensely. That $20 is saying God, I trust you, god, I'm putting you first with this God, rather than spending this on myself and my wants and desires, I'm trusting you to use it how you see fit. That change in perception changes everything, and that's something that I think.
Speaker 2:I won't speak for every church, but I know I've been involved with churches that haven't done it well.
Speaker 2:A lot of times in my experience, the church has kind of unintentionally made themselves the hero of the story where, hey, look at what our church is doing, we're making all this difference, we're having this impact, and while that's not untrue, it kind of misses the role that I think God intends the church to play in these. And rather than being the hero, the church and pastors should really be the guide, and our role is to lead people and point people to God, and so it's not about making the church or the charity or the organization the hero. It's about making God the hero and helping people connect with God. And so I think, as we're talking about this, just even thinking about the language we're using, about how we're inspiring people to take a step into generosity, it really matters that we try to take the church out of that equation and really focus on it being a spiritual transaction between the person and God directly, and then recognize that God chooses to work through his church by entrusting the church with resources, but that's on God to entrust those resources.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I feel like we're tapping into something real good, rodney, I love where you're going here. First, to recap, when we are the giver, right, we're talking about the individual, everything that we've been talking about to this point. We're not saying give to the church, because we're saying God wants to partner with you in this way and he wants your heart. So don't think of it specifically as I'm giving to the church because they need my money Because, like you said, a lot of churches don't. Depending on the church, it might be like no, no, no, we need your money. We'll get into that in a second. But again, it's not because, yeah, the church needs my money, it's. God has invited me to respond with faithful obedience and this is about that intimate moment with Him. Again, the results are His, the results are up to Him. He yes, again, the results are his, the results are up to him. He's now in control. So, as the individual that's how we can think about this and then as the leader, whether it's a leader of a church or a nonprofit, as you said, notally, I don't think they're trying to be boastful or anything like that. I think they're trying to encourage people to give Right. But subconsciously, this is kind of the message that's coming through right. Right Is look at all the work that we're doing Now. If you want to give, then we can keep doing this work. Right, yes? Or on the flip side I've seen this too I'm sure you have too, rodney where instead of making the church the hero, then the giver becomes the hero. Look how generous you're being. Thank you so much. Because of you, all of this is happening and I've been studying recently in 2 Corinthians, chapters 8 and 9. I call these like. This is the hall of fame of any kind of generosity campaign.
Speaker 1:Right, when Paul is talking to the Corinthian church and just recently I was reading it with fresh eyes you know, every now and then God will give me fresh eyes and some passages, and you know you start seeing things that you're like oh, I never thought about it like this before. Right, but as I was reading those two chapters in 2 Corinthians 8 and 9, I started seeing what Paul was doing and one of the things that stuck out to me. There was a few things that stuck out First. He's always talking about the heart of the giver. The only ROI that he's referring to is their righteousness. He says God wants you to give, to increase your righteousness, to increase your heart for the Lord and your heart for his people. That's one of the things.
Speaker 1:The other thing that I saw was he didn't really talk that much about what they're going to do with the money or how much money they need or anything like that. There was no like here's how many people we've saved and here's how many baptisms we did. There's none of that. There is there. It's all about hey, we want you to be faithful to the Lord, we want you to respond to Him in obedience. Here's the opportunity and as you're giving, his kingdom is going to be multiplied, and then your righteousness will also be multiplied. Your heart's going to be drawn closer to God's.
Speaker 1:So it was just interesting to see how Paul could have easily come in and been like well, look at this great work we're doing. We started out with zero churches. Now we're at this many churches. He could have spewed all kinds of numbers at these people to make it sound more impressive. He could have made the giver the champion and the hero. I didn't read in there any time where he says thank you to the giver. I read multiple times where he said I thank God for you.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm thanking God. God is the ultimate source. If God owns it all, then God is just transferring money from one account to the other, right? Yes, yes, and so just to think of it in a very simple, kind of silly example, you know, if my husband and I, we have all these joint bank accounts, right, if he transfers money from one account to the other, I don't say, well, thank you so much for your donation to my blah, blah, blah, it's all under one roof anyways. You know, that would be kind of silly for me to say. I might try it, though later, just to see his reaction.
Speaker 1:But that's the whole point is, you know, paul's not thanking the giver, he's thanking God. Thank you that we get to participate in this work with you. He ends chapter 9 of the Bible with thank you for this amazing gift. Right, thank you for this gift that we get to partner with you, lord, yes, so those are just a few things that I started to recognize. So for our leaders out there who specialize in giving conversations especially, go back, read 2 Corinthians, 8 and 9 and figure out what do you see, but also what don't you see, what language do you not see there, and potentially then re-examine how we're talking about money too. It's very interesting, isn't it? I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, rodney.
Speaker 2:What struck me is just how often it comes back to that core belief of do we really believe God owns it all?
Speaker 2:Because if we get there, if that's our foundational belief, usually all the other things fall into place. And you know, I think part of moving from transactional to relational is thinking about the stewardship component of that. And you know, if we believe that God owns it all, then that puts all of us, whether it's individually or as an organization, we're all stewarding God's resources, and how we do that is so important. And you know, I think part of what as organizations we want to do is we want to let people know hey, we're being a good steward of what you're giving through our organization, and we'll talk about all of the ways that we're stewarding that well.
Speaker 2:But sometimes we miss the spiritual component of that and it's the parable of the talents. If, as an organization, we're stewarding the resources that God's entrusting with us, well, if we're being good stewards, what does God do? Well, he entrusts us with more. I think that all goes back to the fact that he owns it all and that we don't have to worry about resourcing. If we're doing our part, then God's always going to be faithful and do His part.
Speaker 1:Amen to that. That's so good. All right, Ronnie, I feel like you gave us so many good little nuggets of wisdom today and I really, really appreciate it. So, as we're wrapping up, tell me what are some final thoughts, some final words of encouragement. We'll talk to two different people. Right, we have two specific audiences that come to the chair here, so the first person in the chair is the individual, the person listening, who's like man, yes, Rodney, like my giving has felt very transactional. You know, it doesn't feel like this moment of worship. It's not leading me any closer to Christ. What's the first step? What can I do today?
Speaker 2:You know just a couple of thoughts I love just processing through a couple of questions and one we mentioned earlier when was the last time I gave and felt it? That really helps identify am I giving in a sacrificial way? So I think that's a great question to process. One of the other things is a value statement for Life, church and it's we give up things we love for things we love even more. And so maybe just ask the question hey, is there something in my life that I could give up and instead give that because I love God more than whatever this other thing is? I think that takes it from a transactional to a spiritual.
Speaker 2:As you process those questions, and then I always think it's a good idea just to start with God and just say God, what are you prompting me to do? What are you asking of me? Would you give me wisdom and insight in this area and help me honor you with giving in the area of generosity and God? What are you calling me to do? And then just be receptive and listen. For his response. He is so good and so faithful to reply. I think those are probably three things that I would encourage anyone to walk through.
Speaker 1:Personally, I love those three questions. Those are so, so good. Thank you for that, I think. If we're leaning into all three of those, I think you're going to come out with a very different outcome than what you're currently experiencing.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Really do.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And so, finally, the second person in our chair, they're the Christian leader. They're the person who is talking to people and encouraging people like you are every day to be more generous. So that might be a pastor, that might be a nonprofit leader. Even we have a lot of financial advisors who listen in, who want to have more generosity conversations with their clients. Speak to those leaders. How can we start to talk about money in a way where we help people kind of break from the transactional to the spiritual? Now, of course, we could just go through those three questions that you just gave us, but give us one more healthy challenge, if you will.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I think we've covered a lot of them. Really, I think, as we step into those conversations, check our heart, check our posture and make sure that we truly believe that God owns it all and make sure that we're going to let Him own the outcome of the conversation. And as we do those two things, you know, I think that probably aligns us well to have the right conversation. The other thing that I often will tell pastors is keep it simple. It doesn't have to be a hard thing and often we overcomplicate the conversation and I think it can be simple.
Speaker 2:And so, just thinking of ourselves as that guide of hey, here's some things for you to consider. I'm not going to try to control the outcome, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I'm going to give you some things to wrestle with and to take to God. And as you decide what your next step is, I'm going to be all in as an encourager and I'm going to encourage you to take that step. So if somebody decides, you know what I think I'm going to give and I think I'm going to give this amount. That is great. I am so excited you've chosen to take that step. When are you going to do that and just kind of helping encourage them to take action on that decision.
Speaker 1:Beautiful, that's perfect. Thank you so much, rodney. I love how you frame that up for people. Again, we don't have to tell anyone what to do, right, but more let me ask you a few questions. Let me encourage you to really lean into Christ in this conversation and maybe consider these things and bring it to Him in prayer yes, right, and talk to Him about it, and then I'm going to be here to encourage you and be your cheerleader and help support you so that you can take that first step, because it can be scary for people. So I love how you frame that. Don't overcomplicate it, don't make it harder than it needs to be. Yes, I always remind people that having money conversations is truly the easiest way to start having gospel conversations. Yes, and that's something that most people in that space already feel very confident and competent in doing. So just do the thing that God created you to do and it's going to flow pretty naturally.
Speaker 2:So good.
Speaker 1:Very good. Thank you so much, Rodney, for joining us and thank you listeners. It was such a pleasure. I'm sure you enjoyed getting to know Rodney a bit and, as we're wrapping up, tell us if people want to engage more with you. You mentioned earlier that you do a lot of content writing. I believe you have a lot of free resources available through the church. Can you tell us how people could access those?
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. If we create resources, we give them away for free and anyone can use them. And you can access those by going to openlifechurch, and a lot of those resources are available. Whether it's kids curriculum, whether it's Bible studies or plans there's all kinds of content available for free to anyone there at openlifechurch.
Speaker 1:Perfect, all right. Thank you everyone. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you for sitting down with us and having a conversation about our hearts and our generosity. Have a great day. We'll see you next time. Thank you for listening. If today's conversation has blessed you, share our podcast with a friend and if you have a money question, email me at Courtney at MarkleyCoachingGroupcom. I'm Courtney Markley and this has been the Heart of Money.