EP 62 The BrewDog Approach to Non-Alcoholic Craft Beers with Jordan Shippee

Get excited because I'm diving into the refreshing world of non-alcoholic craft beers with BrewDog's Jordan Shippee! BrewDog began in Scotland back in 2007 and has expanded like crazy all over the world. Jordan, a BrewDog Sales Manager, is giving us a look into their strategy and how they’ve managed to stay so successful in a somewhat volatile market.  

We discuss the different methods to create alcohol-free beer, the importance of term definitions in marketing, and the consumer trends worth noting. Jordan shares awesome tips for encouraging local retailers to carry more non-alcoholic options. He also explains the AFNA certification process that has made BrewDog a true leader in the NA space. From his favorite NA beer picks to their exciting brewery and hotel experience in Columbus, OH, Jordan is serving up significant insights into the company. 

It’s all fun and no buzz over here, so grab your mocktail and tune in to hear more!

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Thanks to Giesen 0% Wines for being our exclusive non-alcoholic wine sponsor!

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Transcript

Deb: 0:01

Welcome up, friends and welcome to the Thriving Alcohol Free Podcast. I'm your host, deb, otherwise known as Mocktail Mom, a retired wine drinker that finally got sick and tired of spinning on life's broken record called Detox to Retox. Let this podcast be an encouragement to you. If alcohol is maybe a form of self-care for you or you find yourself dragging through the day waiting to pour another glass, I am excited to share with you the fun of discovering new things to drink when you aren't drinking and the joy of waking up each day without a hangover. It is an honor to serve as your sober, fun guide. So sit back and relax or keep doing whatever it is you're doing. This show is produced for you with love from the great state of Kentucky. Thanks so much for being here and big time cheers. Okay, hey, friends, it's Deb. Welcome back to Thriving Alcohol Free.

Deb: 0:52

I am so excited today because when I get asked about, a lot is about non-alcoholic beers. I get asked about non-alcoholic wines, not just Mocktails. But today we are diving into the world of non-alcoholic beers. I have a very special guest for you, Jordan Shippee from Brew Dog. He has a background in the craft beverage industry for over a decade. He's worked for several different esteemed breweries, such as Avery, Great Divide, harpoon, and now he is with Brew Dog. He is joining me from Denver, colorado, in the podcast Thriving Alcohol Free. Jordan, how are you Nice to see you today.

Jordan: 1:27

Doing great. Thank you for having me Very excited to get in touch with your audience here.

Deb: 1:32

I'm so happy to have you. It is really something I get asked about a lot non-alcoholic beers what can I drink when I'm not drinking? Just to be able to connect with you, because Brew Dog has been on the cutting edge of the non-alcoholic beer space beyond, way beyond, way before many, many other companies have hopped on. Brew Dog's been around since 2007. You guys started in Scotland, is that right?

Jordan: 1:59

Yep In Aberdeen, Scotland, and that's still where our headquarters is in Ellen, Scotland. I haven't been there personally, but we've got now several headquarters all over the world, including Berlin, Germany, Australia, and now in Columbus, Ohio for the last several years.

Deb: 2:15

Okay, I don't live too far from Columbus. I'm in Kentucky, so I'm just kind of down the road, so to speak. But then next time I get up there I have to get into Okay, you have the tap room, you have a hotel there Is that right? And the brewery in Columbus.

Jordan: 2:29

Yeah, that's kind of the main draw of our headquarters. There is the hotel faction of it, so it's kind of a boutique-sized hotel. But you can stay literally in the brewery. Your rooms open right up into our barrel-aging facility so you get a nice waft of fresh oak and sour beers in the morning and then in your room when you check in or when you book your room, they'll ask you if you'd like anything on tap in the kegarators in the room They'll fully stock a mini-fridge that's built into the wall of your shower for your shower beers.

Jordan: 2:59

No, no. So we like to have a good time out there, for sure. And then, of course, there's the brewery operations headquarters right there, built into the building as well. So there's a great tour you can take while you're there, and then a full restaurant and bar with shuffleboard and arcade games and you name it. So we like to make it a one-stop shop, since it's a little outside the downtown area of Columbus, so we love to have a little bit of a tour out there. We like to make sure that you've got no shortage of fun things to do while you're on campus.

Deb: 3:29

On campus. That is so cool, okay, so wait, so you could do. Could I do like a non-alcoholic like come into the hotel and have that in my shower, have that in the kegarator. What did you call it? A kegarator? What is it?

Jordan: 3:42

Yeah, there's a little kegarator in the room so that'll hold a little pony keg and so you can request a specific beer be put on tap when you make your reservation. And then we always have the mini fridge stock that's built into the wall of the bathroom shower and so you can request anything specifically you'd like in there, and that would include our non-alcoholic lineup really the whole lineup, I think there's already typically a few offerings that we put in there in every room. So, luckily, you know, if you are just visiting and wanted to stay sober throughout the trip, then that should be an option even in the room, the mini bar, as it were.

Deb: 4:18

This is a dream come true. Okay, I am so ex I have to get up there. I have to get there. Okay, I'm very excited to hear that. I did not know those details about the room and the shower. Very cool Bathroom. You've got to be able to drink in the bathroom. Yes, all right, so let's get into it. Can we talk about, like, the magic behind non-alcoholic beers and how this happens? Can you tell us a little bit about how they're made, how it's created?

Jordan: 4:42

Yeah, I think that's something that, as we see this boom in consumers, jump into the category that is less talked about. Some suppliers keep their cards pretty close to the chest on their methods, but it's relatively simple. There's several different ways to make it and there's several different methods that you can combine if you like. As far as our methods go, we use a biological method that involves basically an altered malt build, so we use malts that have different enzymes that are broken down during the fermentation process, and so they don't result in the end product of ethyl alcohol. That's one of the many methods to make it. There's also vacuum distillation and dilution, and there's several different ways you can modify the ingredients that you use in order to create a low alcohol or non-alcoholic product in the end. So it really depends, based on the brewery, what type of product first and foremost you're trying to produce, whether it's a fully non-alcoholic product or whether it's a low ABV, under 0.5% product, and that's an important distinction depending on where you are in the world.

Jordan: 5:50

Some countries use those interchangeably, like the US. Non-alcoholic and alcohol-free essentially means the same thing out here in the US, but abroad, where we have several bars and we talked a little bit about some of our bars in India. They require fully alcohol-free products and so that would be less than 0.05% alcohol. So that will sometimes dictate the type of method that you use to create your product, because some of them can't fully achieve that fully alcohol-free product. In the end, for our processes we stick to a recipe that results in a product less than 0.5% alcohol, so technically non-alcohol, and that's where most of our products fall, and again we use more of a biological method to achieve that. But there are some more mechanical methods that you can use with advanced technology that's come about over the last few years to really make sure that the product is fully alcohol-free, and that would fall into the same category as fruit, apple juice or listerine. So there's different distinctions again, depending on where you live and what the laws and what the legalities are and the definitions that that particular locality uses.

Deb: 7:06

It is interesting especially as the non-alcoholic space or the alcohol-free space or the whatever any space I'm gonna call it as it continues to grow Having those definitions and really knowing, like, okay, what does that mean? So, like, right, if you're here in the United States and you're picking up a non-alcoholic drink, it can be right under point what zero point five percent is considered non-alcoholic, but in India it wouldn't be correct.

Jordan: 7:29

Correct and in most places in Europe they have the alcohol-free distinction. So, okay, they have both, both products that fit those different definitions. However, that distinction is made more clear abroad than it is here. So there are places that will specifically designate alcohol-free products as opposed to non-alcoholic products, where you know technically, if you Drank a hundred of them you would feel the effects of the alcohol Versus something that's alcohol-free less than point zero, five percent. You know they obviously want to differentiate between those two different categories.

Deb: 8:03

Yeah, yeah to me when I say not like an alcoholic, even though it's, you know, under point five percent, I'm not getting drunk on it, I'm not even getting a buzz, nothing, you know, it's like right, like if you're listerine or a banana probably has more alcohol Than a non-alcoholic beer. But it is interesting because there are some people who are, and what to each his own. You know, if somebody's not comfortable with that, then they need to have something that's an alcohol-free option definitely.

Jordan: 8:28

Absolutely, and and again.

Jordan: 8:29

You know, with the consumer habits being different in Europe and being a little bit more developed on that category, you have a lot of younger groups that are more accustomed to drinking within that category.

Jordan: 8:41

So folks that are under 18 and under 21 in whatever localities, have that as the legal drinking age. They sometimes will grow up drinking non-alcoholic beer at dinner with their parents who are drinking fully alcoholic wine or beer. So it's just kind of a different cultural dynamic than there is here in the US where obviously because of Prohibition, our our viewpoint on that has has been altered quite a bit over the last hundred years. So now that we're kind of coming back around to to that category and we're seeing so much innovation in there, I think you're gonna see more people try to understand the distinction, the differentiation between alcohol-free, non-alcoholic, and I also think you'll see a difference in, I would say, evolved viewpoints on drinking within that category over the next several years. We're already seeing some of it now with this major boom, but certainly over the next few decades I expect our perception of drinking non-alcoholic beer to be Vastly different than it has been over the last hundred.

Deb: 9:44

Totally agree. No, I totally agree, and I I've seen that just in the last three years of being living in alcohol-free lifestyle, I mean in in the very beginning, I think the majority of, like, the response that I get, you know, and I was drinking a non-alcoholic wine or something, was you know why. And I even thought the same thing like why, why am I buying this? You know what's the point, kind of where I think definitely like what you said, like the viewpoints are definitely evolving and People are realizing, like you know, maybe even just to have something in between their cocktails or in between their full-edited, you know beer, to have alcohol-free options or non-alcoholic options.

Jordan: 10:15

Certainly, and I think you'll see, you know the the occasions that people break those out and are changing as well. I mean, obviously I'm I'm in an industry where that's that it's more common place for people to enjoy a beer in a work setting. But you'll see people in a 9 am Meeting break out a non-alcoholic beer and and when you see that on a zoom meeting that can be a little jarring at first. But you know, essentially the viewpoints on that within the industry are changing a little bit as well and you know people are realizing they can pulse that into their normal drinking habits as well, just to be a little healthier or if they have to drive. You know there's several different occasions where people are becoming more I don't know if the word is really sober curious, but certainly non-alcoholic curious and we're seeing kind of this emerging subcategory of non-alcohol drinkers that are are regularly Mixing that in with their fully alcoholic beverages as well. So totally.

Deb: 11:07

I love that non-alcoholic. Curious, yeah, because maybe, maybe it isn't about sobriety or it's just about having those options. It's funny that you like opening up a can on a zoom. You know, at 9 am I actually picked up my daughter from an event in the evening and, I kid you not, I was drinking a hazy AF in the car, you know, and I thought, okay, if I got pulled over, like, well, it's not alcohol, yeah, it's, but it is. It's that feeling of like, oh my gosh, I feel like I'm doing something wrong, but you're, it's just a non-alcoholic beer taste.

Jordan: 11:32

Yeah, and you know some of that ties to the the taboo nature of alcohol consumption in general that we have in the us. That's a little bit less prevalent in in other countries, especially out in Europe where, where we started, you know that that extends to the non-alcoholic category too. There's kind of this taboo perception that there is alcohol in it but it's just low alcohol, when in reality you know, like we talked about, you would need a hundred of them really to feel any Effects of it. So I think it's going to become more normalized, like drinking a Diet Coke or something totally, totally especially Especially with the lower calorie intake that you'll see in most of these non-alcohol products, just as a healthier alternative for someone who likes the taste of beer, doesn't want the effects, you know, during the middle of a work day or or after a workout or something like that. You know it's it's a great alternative that I think is going to become more commonplace for sure.

Deb: 12:24

Definitely okay. So you talked a little bit about like the trends. So do you see in terms of just even like your own business I know obviously can't give numbers or whatever, but like is it a fast growing part of Brew Dog, the non-alcoholic space? Or what do you see in terms of like when you reach out to your customers, your customer base?

Jordan: 12:40

Well, it's interesting with with me being based in Colorado, in the Southwest out here these are all new markets for Brew Dog, so Most of most of the engagement that a lot of these customers have had with our brand has been through the non-out category first and foremost. So with us having such a diverse lineup within that category, you'll see most retailers out this way are looking for innovation in that space and we've luckily had a product line to be able to service that need. But we're also in in much more robust craft beer fully fully alcoholic craft beer markets. So there's a lot of local competition and so that's been a niche that we've been able to take advantage of in terms of launching and growing our brand out in these, these new spaces. So, yeah, I think it's one of the a few bright spots really in the craft beer industry right now.

Jordan: 13:31

There's been a lot of stagnation and decline in the craft beer industry as a whole. Right now A lot of suppliers and breweries are seeing a major slowdown in the consumption of fully alcoholic products, especially beer. Having a product lineup like that that services a new emerging category is of the utmost importance in an industry as volatile as the one we're seeing right now. We've been fortunate to already have that built into our brand image, but you're going to see for sure, throughout 2024 and beyond, so many more suppliers that have never dabbled in that category diving in. Finally, you're going to see a lot of innovation as a result.

Jordan: 14:13

But that's been one of the great things about BrewDog out west especially is that's something we've already. Really, that's typically what we launch a market with, first and foremost, out here, when we open up a new state distribution network, that's typically the first thing that we add to the portfolio with our distributors. We're seeing tons of growth, yeah, and again with an industry that's seeing very little growth. That category in particular is expected to grow exponentially over the next few years. It's already worth about $11 billion and I think the expectation at the end of this year is that it'll be worth over $25 billion.

Jordan: 14:50

So it is exploding in every regard, and that's not just non-alcoholic beer, of course, that's spirits and wine, and we're seeing so much innovation within all subcategories of the alcohol industry. So it's a great thing to see because it's been really a bright spot in an otherwise kind of dismal market for the last couple of years. Ever since COVID, we're seeing a lot of change in consumer habits.

Deb: 15:15

That's good. Yeah, that's really, yeah, well, yeah, covid. Covid was just about the final nail in the coffin for me, with my wine drinking. Literally, the last day of 2020 was my first day alcohol-free. Because it was just like I can't take it anymore. I was like, okay, it's two o'clock, let's pour the wine. I can't live like this anymore.

Jordan: 15:32

Well, you're of course, not alone in that.

Jordan: 15:34

I think, yeah, that was a massive recalibration for a lot of people.

Jordan: 15:39

It was going through a year of shutdowns and really just flipping everyone's normal health and wellness habits upside down for that long.

Jordan: 15:49

It brought a lot of people. It was sort of a come to Jesus moment for several people, and that's not just folks that wanted to go fully sober, like yourself, but for a lot of people that realized this is not a healthy way to live, to be drinking earlier on in the day and more and more throughout the day. And so now we're seeing, especially with the younger generations that are becoming legal enough to drink, there's almost this newfound built-in health and wellness component to the way people think about drinking alcohol, and so younger generations are way more promiscuous in their drinking habits when it comes to non-alcoholic products in general, and that health and wellness component is a big factor, and especially out here in Colorado or out west in California, it's no secret that that's a little bit more built into the lifestyle. So it serves us well when we distribute our products in those areas. But I think really nationwide and worldwide, ever since COVID, the consumer habits have changed so drastically that it's impossible to ignore at this point.

Deb: 16:53

I love that. What you said promiscuous in their non-alcoholic drinking habits. That's the best way to put it right. It's a beautiful way to put it, but it's true. I think they're much more, way more, open to alcohol, free options, and it's just the health and wellness lifestyle. Yeah.

Jordan: 17:09

Yeah, and part of that, especially here in Colorado where you have several hundred craft breweries all over the state, really well recognized brands making great liquid the consumer here was maybe a little bit more receptive to those categories at the onset and so they were already used to being a promiscuous craft beer drinker and so they would go to a brewery and get a flight of beer and try five, six, seven things during their visit, or go to a tap room and try several different local beers that they had never had.

Jordan: 17:38

I think that translated well to the boom of non alcoholic products, because they already had this sort of built in mindset of I want to try something new, and so that's that's helped quite a bit. And then you add that, of course, to the the more health conscious, you know lifestyle that you see out here in place like Colorado, in the mountains, things like that. So that's that's been sort of an easy segue, I think, for a lot of people into the category. But we're seeing more and more of that in in plenty of places that don't have as robust a craft beer market as well and like.

Jordan: 18:11

Kentucky like Kentucky yeah seriously and and you know now that there's spirits and wine options on that side of things too it's not just doles, like it was for almost a hundred years that was really like the only major commercially accessible option, and so now, with hundreds of options and retailers that are finding it impossible to ignore these trends, you're going into a local liquor store that used to carry nothing in in the non out segment, and now they've got a full door of their cooler dedicated to it, and so I think it's a great thing. It's a great thing because it's really, you know, like we talked about making it a little bit less taboo, the idea of dabbling in non alcoholic consumption yep, I love it.

Deb: 18:54

Actually, the first day I was alcohol free so yeah, it was new. It was new year's eve and I went to total wine and I hadn't been a beer drinker before. I am more of a beer drinker now that I was when I was drinking alcohol as a wine drinker, but I'm blue dogs been a total wine since. The non-alcoholic has been right there. Next year, the old doles that was all I thought there was. I thought there was, that was all there. The only option certainly is not the case. Okay, as you guys know, I love Giesen zero percent wines. Their Sauvignon Blanc is my go to on a regular basis. But they recently launched a delicious sparkling brute zero percent which is quickly becoming a fan favorite. I am so proud proud to have Giesen as the exclusive non-alcoholic wine sponsor of the thriving alcohol free podcast.

Deb: 19:36

Giesen zero percent wines are created through the magic of advanced spinning cone technology to remove the alcohol from their full-edged wines. The award-winning winemaker Duncan Shuler and his team have done wonders in marbero, new zealand, by creating entire family of zero percent wines with all the flavor and deliciousness you expect from traditional quote full-edged wine. Their non-alcoholic wines maintain the aroma and the body to create a low calorie wine that never contains more than zero point five eighty v. Globally available, look look for Giesen zero percent wines wherever you shop for your non-alcoholic options. Their family of alcohol free wines include the most effervescent member of the family, the sparkling brute zero percent, which is absolutely delicious for any celebration.

Deb: 20:14

My personal favorite, although I do love them all, is the Sauvignon Blanc, coming in at only one hundred calories for the entire bottle. And, not to be missed, the other members of their zero percent family the re-sling, the premium red blend, the rose they, the pinot gris, the Giesen zero percent wines. There's a de-alcoholized wine for everyone and every occasion. Give Giesen a try and let me know how much you love it, and if you want to meet their winemaker, go back to episode thirty three of the podcast, where Duncan Shuler joined me to share about the Giesen story. Okay. So for people, though, who are in smaller markets here, at least here in the us, how can we encourage me, these smaller shops, to carry, like a non-alcoholic redog or you know, to bring in more? How can we encourage them to get their distributors to have more not non-alcoholic options? Like I know, total wine has like three shelves now.

Jordan: 21:00

That keeps growing, so which is wonderful yeah, and it's sometimes tough with the smaller liquor stores, retailers, space is always a premium and especially with the growing full strength craft beer revolution, if you will, it's really tough playing tetris to find space for any new brands or suppliers in general.

Jordan: 21:19

But I think again, with the way the consumer trends are looking over the last four or five years especially, it's impossible to ignore. So I think going into any of your local stores and asking the proprietor at that store you know this is I shop here every week and this is what I'm looking for and do you have any idea how to get a hold of it? Obviously where we're not in every state as a supplier, but their options in every state. So you're gonna see more and more of that throughout this year and beyond. But I think just asking your retailer to bring something in, usually if they have a regular that's asking for something, it's a pretty easy sell for them and they have relationships with five, six, ten, twenty distributors, so they they usually should be able to find whatever product you're looking for. If it, if it's distributed in that state, it shouldn't be too difficult to bring it into any retailer.

Deb: 22:12

I would think that's great advice, okay, that's great advice, yeah, because for many of us, you know, we're in smaller cities and it's like you go in actually, one, actually kroger here, which is a big grocery store, and we just opened up a new wine, and they opened up a new wine and spirit shop and I went in and they only had one non alcoholic wine, one brand, and I was like what is going on here? You know, and I know they carry other ones in their other shops. So I did, I went and talked to the manager, you know, just like, hey, you know you'll be seeing me, nor, you know, regularly, but you know, can we carry a couple?

Jordan: 22:41

and I gave him a couple of you know other names or whatever, but yeah, it's a little bit of slower process with the larger chains like that, the, the cogs move a little slower in terms of bringing in new innovative pieces, but we are seeing major national and international chains coming around to that idea. They're asking for those products. So as a sales force you know atvBrewdog we're constantly pitching those to, to the large groups like rovers and safeways, and they're they're always looking to, you know respond to the trends, because those major chains are always numbers driven. So this is one of the few categories where it's it's impossible to ignore any longer and I think at the local level with the smaller retailers, it's going to be much quicker, much easier to be able to bring in new products that you're looking for.

Jordan: 23:25

So if you have something in mind, I always recommend going into the retailer and, just you know, striking up the conversation, because Typically it's pretty easy. But if there's a specific product, most, most supplier websites will have a product finder for you and so you can type in your zip code. They can tell you where to find it near you. Brew dog has that for both our full strength and our non-alcoholic Products. So I encourage people who are looking specifically for brew dog, non-alcohols or full strength to go to our website and you can type in your locality. It'll tell you some of the places that carry it nearby, but if they don't, as long as we do already distribute in that state, typically it's pretty easy to find a way into your local store.

Deb: 24:02

Okay, good, oh, that's, that's so good to know. Okay, I want to talk about a little bit about, like you mentioned, you know how you can ask for flights and stuff of you know, beers. So if somebody wanted to try brew dog, because I know like at Christmas you guys had this awesome box, what was it like? 12 beer, 12, 12, not out of your years.

Deb: 24:20

It was so cool and it was such a fun way to try. You know different, not out of beers. So is there a flight like that year round that people can try? Is that considered a flight, or a box like that, a multi-pack box?

Jordan: 24:31

Variety pack. Yeah, we don't. We don't do that year round with 12 different offerings.

Jordan: 24:36

Okay we do have the number one non-alcoholic mix pack in the country. It's just called the AF mix pack, and so you can typically find that in total wine I think most of the total wines we distribute to that's the best-selling item in our non-alcoholic portfolio and it's a great way to showcase the different styles that we that we brew in that category. So you know, we do obviously plenty of IPAs and we have a full lineup within our core portfolio of full-strength IPAs in different subcategories, and so we've mimicked that in our non-alcoholic portfolio as well. So there's essentially, if you're, if you're, familiar with any of our brand as a drinker whether it's our Elvis juice or a Hazy Jane, you know, or two big flagship beers you can find non-alcoholic versions of that, and so it's an easy segue for a lot of consumers who are again looking to Either paste themselves, pulse that into their, their normal drinking habits. It's a familiar you know familiar ground for a lot of folks because they're already Aware of the flavor profile from our full-strength lineup and they know well I've got a non-alcoholic counterpart to that that I can grab at any you know any local store as well. So both of those are part of our Non-alcoholic mix pack. And that's again a great way to just kind of dabble in a few different offerings just to see how wide-ranging the flavor profiles can get within that category.

Jordan: 25:57

And of course, that's that's not all that we do that that 12 non-alcoholic beers of Christmas that is a great way to showcase our innovation as well, because, you know, it's not just for offerings that we do year-round, we constantly are breaking out Seasonals, limited time offerings, things like that, most of which have only been available via e-commerce, through our website. But several states allow us to ship directly from the brewery. So if one of your states allows that, then you can always go to our website and just have it shipped out. And Because it's not a non-alcoholic product, there's there's less legal red tape for a lot of places to be able to Allow that to happen. So if you can't find it in your, your local neighborhood, then, specifically with the non-alcoholic products, just check out our website. You might be able to just get it shipped directly to your house.

Deb: 26:45

Awesome, that's awesome. Okay, do you have a favorite of the non-alcoholics? Do you have a favorite in the line of Jordan? What would you recommend? Where would you recommend people to start if you were putting a flight in front of them, where would you say to start?

Jordan: 26:59

Well, certainly with with our lineup, my favorite is the wake-up call. It's a Coffee stout, non-alcoholic that we do, and it's it's a seasonal. So this is actually our current non-alcohol seasonal. And it's funny because I, when I am drinking full-strength beers, stouts are typically not my, my go-to style, but for some reason it just hits the spot, especially first thing in the morning. That's why we call it the wake-up call. It's.

Deb: 27:22

I love that name.

Jordan: 27:23

Yeah, it's supposed to, supposed to sort of feel like a coffee and, and so I love that one. The flavor profiles on it on it is great. There's, you know, chocolate notes, there's coffee notes really easy drinking. Again, that's one of the more interesting ones that we do as a seasonal. But I really like the, the Guinness 00 that they came out with recently that I think they did an excellent job with that too. So there's there's so many great ones that are coming out now that tastes like real beer and Really give you that feeling. So it's almost no commitment to, you know, throw that into the lineup every now and again.

Deb: 27:58

Absolutely. Yeah, somebody. I've heard a lot of chatter about Blue Moon recently, of the not up there, not alcoholic. In the summer Corona hear a lot about Corona, not alcoholic. So it's fun. There's so many different ones to try, like you said, like so many different, and now the bigger players are coming into the market.

Jordan: 28:15

Everyone's coming in Everyone's coming in.

Deb: 28:17

Everybody's like, oh wow, the party's over here, the party's in this room. We better get in there. Yeah, yeah.

Jordan: 28:23

And it may be a little late to the game for some of these folks. But at the same time, strike while the iron's hot. The category is on fire. Right now. It's one of the only growing categories that we're seeing in the entire industry. So, yeah, a lot of suppliers are, and with the methods that are used to make them, often you don't need to alter your brewing equipment at all. So that's the other nice thing is, depending on the type of product you're looking to make, it may not require any significant investment in new technology and new equipment within your brew house. So it's quite easy just to alter recipes to be able to provide these products. So you're going to see a lot of suppliers start to experiment on that side of things this year.

Deb: 29:04

That is awesome. That is awesome. Okay, before we go. Okay, so you have an AFNA certification. Is that right? Do I have that right? Yes, before we go, can you tell everybody what an AFNA certification is? Because you're one of the first BrewDog's, one of the first certified right in the States.

Jordan: 29:21

We were Our sales team, was the first in the world to become certified in the aficionado program, which is essentially a comprehensive certification program similar to if you're familiar with this the Ciceroan program or the Somalia program. It's very similar in that regard. It was developed by Megan Anderson, who's formerly a Boston Beer Company director of beer education I believe I hope I'm getting that title right and it was developed alongside Keith Villa from Blue Moon. So he left to create Syria, the non-alcoholic brand out here in Colorado, and so they teamed up to create basically an educational certification program for the non-out category specifically, and so essentially it includes education on the history of non-alcoholic beer, the ingredients involved, the processes and the differentiations between the processes, as well as sensory training, market trends, safe handling practices. It's quite a bit of information, but I think there's a lot of demand for new education within that category.

Jordan: 30:30

It's all brand new for most people, consumers especially but a lot of retailers, as they build out those cooler doors and those aisles within their stores, are getting more questions about the products how are they made? What makes this better than that or different from that? And retailers are more interested in being able to answer those questions now, and so it's a great program that we as a Salesforce felt was a great leg up for us. There's a huge advantage within this category. We wanted to be leaders within the category, as we felt we have with the liquid itself for so many years.

Jordan: 31:03

This was a great way to showcase our investment in the category as well and our commitment to being leaders and experts for these retailers, for our distributor partners, for the consumers in general, and so we're seeing a lot of retailers at the national level become interested in the certification as well. So Total Wine, for instance, we've discussed with them on how to train their staff and their stores with this educational program, and I've done some educationals with some of my wholesalers just to give them the diluted version of what's going to be valuable to them within the marketplace, so that their reps can go out and speak confidently about the products as well, because several of our distributors carry not just our own non-alcoholic lineup but several other suppliers, and so they're getting questions just the same as I am, just the same as any retailer is, and so this program was several hours long. You take a test at the end, like you do with the Somalia and the Cicero and certifications, and once you pass, then you're considered AFNA certified.

Deb: 32:03

AFNA okay, AFNA, AFNA, AFNA. Yeah, I love it.

Jordan: 32:07

Yeah, so it's very comprehensive. It takes a lot of time to discuss the differentiations between AF and NA as well, but it's a great program that is just kind of getting off the ground now, and I think a lot of suppliers are seeing the value in something like this, and so several other suppliers are diving in to get certified over the course of this year as well.

Deb: 32:28

That is so awesome. That's awesome. It has been such a delight to have you on today. You are just a wealth of information. Thank you for sharing so much with our listeners. I really am so thankful for your time.

Jordan: 32:40

I'm more than happy to do it. I appreciate you sitting down with me and just talking about the importance that we place as a company on the educational component of this category. I think is just as important to get in front of the consumers directly, like this, and provide some of that information Because, again, it's all new for you, for me, for every consumer out there and most of the suppliers and distributors too. So it's great just to be able to get some of the information out and be able to provide some of these curious minds a little bit of context to what they're drinking and provide them some of the tools to be able to make the decisions out there at the retail level.

Deb: 33:16

That's awesome. That's awesome. Okay For the listeners. If you would like to follow Jordan, you can follow. Brewdog USA is on Instagram, brewdog USA, and then Jordan's Instagram handle is shipwrecked17. I'll put it in the show notes shipwrecked17. I'll put that in the show notes as well, so that we can follow along. But, Jordan, thank you. Thank you for your time and thanks to BrewDog for being a leader in the non-alcoholic beer space, really, really appreciate all that you guys are doing to support those of us who are looking for options.

Jordan: 33:45

Happy to do it in full steam ahead, so I'm looking forward to what the next few years hold for us.

Deb: 33:51

It's going to be crazy town Buckle up. We all have to buckle up.

Jordan: 33:54

Buckle up everybody.

Deb: 33:58

Big time cheers to you for tuning in to the Thriving Alcohol Free Podcast. I hope you will take something from today's episode and make one small change that will help you to thrive and have fun in life without alcohol. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social, send up a flare or leave a rating and a review. I am cheering for you as you discover the world of non-alcoholic drinks and as you journey towards authentic freedom. See you in the next episode.