Inside the $50M Mission to Reduce Stillbirths | Sarah Stock | Wellcome leap

In this episode, I am  joined by Sarah Stock, Professor and Consultant in Maternal and Fetal Health, and one of the leading global voices in stillbirth and preterm birth research. Sarah’s work spans laboratory science, clinical trials, and large-scale international data-driven research focused on improving outcomes for mothers and babies worldwide.

Sarah earned her MD from Manchester University Medical School and her PhD in Reproductive Biology from the University of Edinburgh, later completing specialist and subspecialist Maternal and Fetal Medicine training across Edinburgh, Glasgow, London, and Australia.

Sarah currently serves as Program Director at Wellcome Leap, where she leads the $50M In Utero program  an ambitious initiative aiming to reduce stillbirth rates by 50% by building scalable technologies that can measure, monitor, and predict fetal development in real time.

Stillbirth affects more than 2 million families every year  roughly one baby every 16 seconds  yet it remains one of the most overlooked global health challenges. 

In this conversation, we explore why pregnancy care has remained largely unchanged for decades, how emerging technologies could transform maternal and fetal care, and where founders and innovators can create meaningful impact.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Sarah’s journey into maternal–fetal medicine and stillbirth research
• Why stillbirth continues to be a neglected global health crisis
• The vision behind Wellcome Leap’s In Utero program
• How the ARPA-style innovation model differs from traditional research funding
• Technologies needed to measure placental, maternal, and fetal health at scale
• Wearables, AI, biomarkers, and the future of pregnancy monitoring
• Challenges founders face in women’s health and maternal care
• How Wellcome Leap supports breakthrough innovation beyond funding alone
• The biggest market opportunities in women’s health over the next 3–5 years
• What success looks like for the future of maternal healthcare
• How founders and researchers can engage with the ecosystem

If you're a founder, investor, researcher, healthcare leader, or someone passionate about women’s health innovation, this episode offers an inside look at one of the biggest opportunities to reshape the future of healthcare.

This episode is brought to you in partnership with FemTech India a global women’s health ecosystem building and scaling startups to close the gender gap in emerging markets like India.

Disclaimer: The content shared in this episode is intended for general awareness and discussion purposes only. It should not be considered a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always consult a qualified healthcare provider for personal health decisions. 

©️TechThrive Ventures. All rights reserved.

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Sarah Stock - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-stock-92605449/

Wellcome Leap $50M Utero program - https://wellcomeleap.org/inutero/ 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Women's health is on the agenda and that's amazing. A lot of talking about the problems, but we need to get on and start building the solutions.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

My today's guest is Sarah Stock, professor and consultant in Maternal and Fetal Health. Sarah now is a program director at Welcome Leap, leading the 50 million in uterus program and ambitious effort to cut stillbirth rates in half by building scalable ways to measure and predict fetal development in real time. Two million still children die from stillbirth every year.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

That's more deaths than deaths from tuberculosis, malaria, and HIV combined. It's the fifth largest cause of death. If we counted them, it would be the fifth largest cause of global mortality. And in that low-income setting, it's the number one cause of mortality. I think there's a huge perception about how difficult pregnancy is, and it's a misperception.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Hi, welcome Sarah. How are you today?

SPEAKER_01 1:05

I'm good, thank you, Navni. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Very well, thank you. Please tell me a little more about your background.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Absolutely. So I'm based in Edinburgh in the UK, in Scotland. Uh, that's my home. Um, and I'm an obstetrician by training, so um uh obstetrics and gynecology doctor, and then I did maternal fetal medicine, so sort of the high-risk pregnancy care specialist training on top of that. But uh throughout my career um I've done research as well, uh, and that research has focused on the biggest causes of baby deaths, which is preterme birth and stillbirth. Um, and so I started um in laboratory doing sort of wet lab science work. Uh, I moved through some preclinical models in terms of looking at medicines effects and developing um new treatments, uh, and then interclinical trials and data-driven approaches, uh, all focused around um really better ways of saving babies' lives uh from these conditions that affect pregnant women. Um, but that's one part of my career, and the more recent part of my career is stepping away from academia and coming to work to for Welcome Leap. Um, and there I developed and direct the Neutro program, which is a $50 million global program uh aimed at reducing stillbirth.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

So, what led you to focus on stillbirth and modern fetal medicine and why?

SPEAKER_01 2:45

I guess I mean a long time ago as a medical student, uh, I really was inspired by some of the doctors uh during my training to do obstetrics. Um, it's a fun specialty, actually. It's exciting, it's fast-paced, you work as a team. But very quickly it changed into becoming more to do with the women and how you could see a real tangible difference in working in obstetrics and gynecology from conditions that that affected their lives or the lives of their children. And then after that, it wasn't too long after that, that it actually changed again and became more about what we couldn't do and recognizing that there were these huge gaps in our knowledge and our ability to do things, particularly in pregnancy and particularly around stillbirth and preterm birth. We seem to have this sort of, I don't know, acceptance that it's just the way it was. And without a real understanding of how we could do better to prevent. So I got I got trained in bereavement care, but I didn't get trained in research in what was causing stillbirth or how we could prevent it. And I think that became a bit of a theme then throughout my career of going into research and really thinking about these conditions. These are what have been thought of as sort of mysteries when I uh you know, I in some ways of why women go into labor when they do, why preterm labour happens, how babies grow and develop, and why some babies die in the womb. And thinking first of all from the fundamental understanding you know, data that's needed to fill those gaps, and then trying to develop new solutions.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Why do you think stillbirth remains so under addressed despite affecting more than two million families each year? Is that data true?

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah, that's stages two. The numbers are crazy. So that's one baby dying from stillbirth every 16 seconds. Um, and let me put that in context. So if we think about the World Health Organization definition of stillbirth, that's the death of a baby in the womb after 28 weeks gestation. So that's the late stages in pregnancy when survival rates are very good. Um, and that's two million stillb children die from stillbirth every year. That's more deaths than deaths from tuberculosis, malaria, and HIV combined. It's the fifth largest cause of death. If we counted them, it would be the fifth largest cause of global mortality. And in that low-income setting, it's the number one cause of mortality. So these numbers are huge. So that makes it even more startling why we're not doing anything about it. And I think there's a few reasons. Stillbirths have been called by the World Health Organization a neglected tragedy. They're neglected because they're not counted often. Sometimes that's literally not counted. These child deaths aren't marked, but they're also not included in statistics. They're often underreported or not included in statistics on mortality. They don't appear in global mortality figures, for example. Um that means if we're not counting them, they don't appear in policy. They're not in things like the Sustainable Development Goals, and there's been chronic underinvestment in research. Um, and that leads us to have a toolkit for antenatal care, which is really last century. The mainstay of antenatal care, of you know, how we monitor through a pregnancy, still is a blood pressure cuff, a tape measure to measure the growing bump, and a urine dipstick. Um and so these things combined mean that stillbirths are kind of not in public consciousness, are ignored. Um, when they do happen, that's the stigma around them. People still find it difficult to talk about these child deaths. And then there's also really important misconceptions, and then one really key misconception is that these deaths are not preventable. If we think about those deaths after 28 su each gestation, only 7% are to babies who have a congenital, sorry, a birth abnormality, a structural abnormality, a chromosomal abnormality that could be considered life-limiting. 93% are to normally formed babies. And that means if we had better ways of predicting what was happening in the womb, detecting complications as they emerge, and being able to allow recognize and reduce that risk or deliver that baby in a timely way, these deaths would be potentially preventable. And I think that that just isn't recognized. There's still this conception, it's just nature's way, and that is just not true. Um, and so I think these things combined to mean that they have not been high on the agenda. I would say that that is starting to change, and I hope that continues to change, but it's still been difficult to talk about stillbirth, but we need to talk about these child deaths to enable us to get to the solutions to reduce them.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

You are part of your program director at Welcome Leap. Um, they are doing a lot of basically serving so many underrepresented sectors and really pushing the industry and you know forward. And uh I would love to know how do you get involved with Welcome Leap and what is the vision behind the UTO program?

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Yeah, absolutely. Um yeah, Welcome Leap's an amazing organization. So it's um a global ARPA for health, so that's an advanced research project agency. Um so it's run by the first female director of DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Project Project Agency, which came out of the United States. So, you know, if you don't know DARPA or the listeners don't know DARPA, the internet came from DARPA, RNA vaccines came from DARPA. It's a proven model of innovation. And Welcome Leap was started to see whether we could apply that model of innovation to health with the aim of bringing health breakthroughs in years, not decades. Um, now I didn't know any of this when I met Welcome Leap, and actually there's an official story of how I got involved, and the unofficial story is I think I was the token woman at a meeting and brought in at the last minute because they realized that they didn't have any women attending. But it was a meeting where the the current at that time the the chief operating officer of Welcome Leap was uh actually in Edinburgh and was there. I was brought along, but um, because I was the only woman and brought in last minute, I was in a bit of a bad mood. So I didn't do what I think I was meant to do is talk about all the solutions. I actually had a bit of a rant about the problems that we have in women's health generally and particularly in pregnancy research, raising some of these problems about how we don't really understand some of the fundamentals and how our tools aren't fit for purpose for um for for you know 20, well it was 2022 then um in terms of managing pregnancy. And he uh listened uh and came back and said wondered if there was something we could do in this area. So then I was uh that resulted in me stepping away from my job, coming to Work to Welcome Leap to develop the Inutero program. And we focused on stillbirth because it's a big problem, but it's also the tip of the iceberg. If we don't have the technologies that you can detect the most sick babies, how are we ever gonna get the technologies that allow us to improve child health? Of course, child health and adult health don't start at birth. What happens in pregnancy is absolutely fundamental for lifelong health. And we talk about improving that, but if we if we don't have the tools that allow us to detect even the sickest babies, how are we gonna get the tools that can improve health? Um, so we focused on stillbirth. We have an um had an ambitious goal, which is to be able to develop new technologies that can predict gestational development, so see what's happening in the womb with sufficient accuracy that we could reduce deaths by 50%. And then there's another part of that goal which is really important. It's to do that without increasing provider-initiated birth. When I say provider-initiated birth, I mean cesarean section, I mean induction of labour. And I'm sure you'll be aware, it's common knowledge that rates of cesarean births, rates of induction of labour have really gone up and up. And it's understandable because we do that to prevent stillbirth. We do that to be cautious to make sure the baby's safe. But of course, cesarean birth and induction of labour carries its own burden to women, to children, to health services. Um, and we do it because we don't have good ways of seeing which babies actually do need to be born and which can safely wait in the womb and for labour to start itself. So recognizing that there was a gap there and we needed different technologies to be bringing together signals from mother, baby, and the placenta uh to understand better what's going on in the womb and be able to reduce stillbirth by half the fundamental goal.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

How is the program um structurally different from traditional research or funding models?

SPEAKER_01 12:24

It's I'm gonna tell you a bit about about the model, and then I'm gonna tell you how it feels because I could read the words and I was like, okay, that sounds okay, it doesn't sound that different. And then actually, having gone through it, it's really quite different from what I was used to in a traditional academic setting. Um, so the Welcome Leap uh sort of ARPA-type model is really, as I say, focused on stacking the odds for success so that we can get breakthroughs quicker, doing things in parallel, so we can get health breakthroughs in years and not decades. Um I think there's sort of three key things about that model. The first of all is that the research is use-inspired research. It focuses around a problem that can be solved, and in our case, that's still birth. Um so it's not sort of a sort of hypothetical, it's not general uh sort of iterative research, it's a focused problem and focusing on that. Um, and it requires a really ambitious goal, and that goal's got to be measurable and time-limited. So, in UNTRO's case, 50% reduction in stillbirth. And the second thing that's really important is that is the networks. Um, so it's a global pro we're a global ARPA. Um, we bring in diverse networks, academia, multidisciplinary, industry, uh sometimes other not-for-profits. So um bringing in people from around the globe with different expertise, all working in concert towards that focused goal. Uh, and as a program director, one of your roles is to bring those people in and to be coordinating and sort of conducting the research efforts uh towards the common goal. And then the third thing is a word that's easy to say but actually hard to do, and that's the agility. And we have structures in place that allow us to move really quickly and iterate so that we can gain momentum. This isn't about speed for speed's sake. We need to be robust, but it's about being able to generate momentum and adapt to results coming in. We're not giving money, waiting for a long period of time, getting the results and seeing what happens. It's constant responsive to what's going on in the program, the developments that are going on, iterating so that we can get to where we need. So that's the kind of theory. What it felt like in a neutro program was um, I mean, I started in in May 2022. Within 100 days, we had assembled um, I think it that we started with 13 teams around the world. We went up to 18. That was more than 240 researchers across six continents. Um and when I say assembled them, they had they were contracted money in accounts and starting work in 100 days. Now, a traditional grant application process that I was used to would take about a year from the time of the call to application, and then another six months to actually uh think about getting money in accounts. So, you know, that that that's rapid. Um, there were starting work, you know, with money in accounts on day one. Um by year one, we had signals that we had could predict conditions for central conditions like fetal growth restriction, which is a cause of stillbirth in about 40% of cases, or associated with stillbirth in about 40% of cases. Um, so we had signals that we had new biomarkers with up to 80% accuracy for fetal growth restriction. Um by year two, we had um medical device-regulated studies for new fetal activity trackers with an aim of uh seeing how babies were moving objectively and whether changes in movements uh could um could be detected because we know that uh unfortunately around half of women who experienced a still birth will look back and say that they had a decrease in fetal movements in the week before their baby died. Um, and in year three, we had new technologies that were predicting oxygenation in the baby using clinical uh measures and ultrasound, so making that accessible even in potentially low resource settings. And then, you know, so by the end of programme, what we had is these bones of a new maternity care system, really, uh, addressing key areas which we think had potential to reduce stillbirth by half. We had um other work uh doing key infrastructure pieces, thinking about how we can digitally enable these technologies, how we can collect signals in between antenatal care visits and bring them together in structured risk prediction platforms. Um and when we put these data together and modelled out the potential effect, what was quite amazing was when we did the simulations, uh we found that we were actually getting a potential 47% reduction in stillbirth, which is way more than I had set the goal, but in my heart I thought, I think that's so ambitious, I'm so anxious that we'll get there. And actually, when we modeled these out, we got to 47% reduction in stillbirth and an 18% provider-initiated birth rate. Um, so really showing that you know, within what you can do in three years with people working at pace, is get the technologies with the potential to achieve our goal and transform maternity care.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

And I love that you said it's it's very global and diverse as well. And I know you also work with a lot of startups, right? And tell me more about what kind of technologies or startups are the most needed to help measure maternal and fetal health at scale.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Okay, I'm gonna start by saying honestly, there's so much scope here. So there's lots of opportunities. But the way we think about it is what's needed is first of all, we need a couple of things. Um, we need better risk stratification, so we need better ways of predicting which women are likely to develop conditions that we know lead to stillbirth. Things like fetal growth restriction, preeclampsia, gestational diabetes, these are pregnancy-specific conditions originating from the placenta that we know we can predict, and we can reduce the risk once we know that those women are going to develop them. There are some treatments we can give. We need better ways of doing that. But that's only going to get us to about half of stillbirths. Half of stillbirths are either due to acute, so unpredictable causes or unknown causes or rarer causes. For those, we need better monitoring at home, ways that you can pick up signals that there's a problem arising at home. That's really open to the digital, the wearables, the new sensor technologies are coming in there. How can we take signals that come arise between scheduled antenatal care visits and use them to help make decisions about care, where, when, how. The third piece that's needed is once we do recognize that the a baby might be vulnerable, is we need to have proper diagnostics when you come into hospital. And then sadly, what we have now, look, we have ultrasounds, we have ways of looking at the baby's heartbeat, but these are really not great, if I'm honest, in terms, or they could be so much better, because they often overestimate, so you often get false positives, and they can miss cases as well. They tend to be pick up late-stage problems. So we need ways of better maternal fetal placental assessment where we can really accurately identify the critical oxygen and nutrient deprivation so we can safely say this woman requires emergency birth, this woman can continue her pregnancy. So those are sort of three areas where I see, and I'm going to just call out, you know, another couple of factors within that. I strongly believe we fail in our maternity and antenatal care because access is so difficult. We've made it face-to-face in hospital with low sensitivity tests, so we just repeat it a lot. You can come into hospital six, eight, ten times for antenatal care. But that's that's not easy. It's not easy to scale. Um, we know that we failed to scale those models of antenatal care in many, many countries around the world. Even in the US, we have maternity healthcare deserts now with no maternity care in county. It's a difficult model to scale because it's based on face-to-face, high resource, um, you know, resource-intensive and difficult to access. So, what we need are technologies that can distribute this, can take it back to home, back to the hands of women, back to the community. Um, that's going to be really important technologies. And the second piece is we need ways of analysing data not in silos, not as point solutions, not as points in time, but bringing risk together so we can think of the dynamic changes across gestation, bringing together signals from mother, baby, and placenta. I've worked in obstetrics for too long. We've had fetal medicine specialists or placental biologists or maternal. Medicine. It's crazy. There's three things going on, and there's multiple feedback loops. We've got to be able to bring together the signals from all. And some of that complexity, you know, is made for now where we have such an explosion in bioinformatics, in data, in AI. There are real opportunities here to use that data.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

What makes this area, especially for founders, building in women's health and maternal health challenging?

SPEAKER_01 22:33

I think there's a huge perception about how difficult pregnancy is, and it's a misperception. Look, we have to be safe, and at no point am I saying that we shouldn't be safe. But I think there's this absolute fear that pregnancy is too hard. Somehow women are more vulnerable in pregnancy. There's conservatism, and that's across the board, from fellow doctors, particularly those that don't work in women's health. You know, I'll speak to my cardiology friends, is like, oh, you couldn't possibly involve a pregnant woman in a research study. Of course you can. Pregnant women want to be involved in research studies.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

And tell me more about the program. Um, how does Welcome Leap think about supporting these breakthroughs companies beyond capital?

SPEAKER_01 23:25

So one of the biggest things I think is is the network. Um so uh Wellcome Leap have created a sort of global health breakthrough network. There's more than 180 institutions now signed up to this network. What does that mean? It means that um it means that it it changes barriers like contracting. So with the institutions under master agreements, it means that contracting can take. Well, our record for a contract with a team was actually, I think it was something like uh um 122 minutes to go from change to getting the contract signed. And academia, you know, contracts take forever. So we're reducing those sort of gaps because it means that we can say, okay, you've got an idea, we need to change this, we can contract now. So, you know, reducing those kind of barriers is really important. As a program director, I found I was often advocating for researchers within their institution to say, you can do things faster, that we can get this done. That doesn't need to be done always this way. Um, and networking between as cross-discipline and uh startups, industry, academia, allowing that that to happen much more uh effectively, coordinating that uh and helping with contracting um and uh you know makes a huge difference. There's so much of research time and development time that is actually just doing the the um well uh the hard but uh but you know, actually technical bits in the background not focusing on the research. So the administrative bits not actually focusing on on the innovation. So I think that's one of the things that I think is so different about Welcome Leap funding and how that's worked, and that uh you know what we do. We then go on and we're trying, you know, afterwards there is this period where we think about transition funding, which is about how we're we're going from the innovation, the the discovery, to getting it into the hands um, I'm gonna say of women and and uh clinicians, um, but of people that we we do work in women's health a lot, but we also work across a number of different health conditions. So it's the translation of the discoveries um to get them in the hands of the people that need them. And with with with that is funding, but also mentorship connections, de-risking the next investment, uh, using the networks that are there to help um help de-risk the next investment. We want things to be success successful and sustainable, but also allowing the right products to be built, not necessarily the one that's got the most commercial value in absolutely initially, but the one that's going to have the impact. And for us, that's thinking about where there's potential impact for access to make sure that underserved populations and the products work and uh you know, not just for those that can most afford them.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

No, that's super impressive. I love that access. I think that's one thing I'm super passionate about as well. That health is right now overall built for only, I would say, rich and wealthy people. There's a massive gap about healthcare literacy, right? Overall. So I think it's just so impressive that like programs like yours not just focused on one region, like they're quite diverse and they're like really going after problems and and also having right data and research, I think, could really transform a lot of things because the data is a missing piece in female health overall, right? Like across all categories, and we all know that it's it's just a massive gap.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. You know, there's a there's a data gap, but right from the outset, I think it's been important that we uh involving people across different settings because unless you do that from the outset and you're building for access from the outset, we're just gonna get it wrong. So I think I think that's one of the tenets that that's really strongly strongly held, is we've got to keep that in mind.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

And how do founders get so Welcome Leap run run, you know, what we do most is we do fixed-term funded programs. So usually three-year programs um funded to the tune of about 50 million uh US dollars. Um, and they are announced the best way to do it is go to the Welcome Leap website, sign up to the mailing list or LinkedIn, um, and you'll see the calls coming out. So we've got a commitment now of a quarter of a billion to women's health. Uh there are um we we have in UTRE, it was the first women's health program. We have programs in cardiovascular health in women, Alzheimer's in women, uh, heavy menstrual bleeding, um and and uh there will be programs in development in autoimmune disease in women and mental health and in women as well. So these are the sort of pipeline of programs coming up. That's the best way uh to be aware and to uh apply for funding from that. In terms of inutro, as we move into sort of a phase where we're we're looking um at more about the ecosystem, I think there may be other opportunities will be to think about how what we need to be addressing this change from from discovery to product to regulatory approval to access and reimbursement, uh uh and and and how we can do things in parallel. And I think there's real need here to think about, you know, we've talked about this model where we've got um we've got technologies that are needed to look across fragmented care pathways, to look across gestation. Yet when we come to regulation and access and reimbursement, what we're looking at is sort of traditional siloed one intervention um uh pathway. So we've we've got to think about how we're gonna change that. We did it well in COVID times, actually. We when we came together, we managed to change how we get from innovation to into the hands of women and people, humans, that needed them. Uh, but we, you know, we need to think about how we can learn from that so we can fast track this. So it's not 22 years from discovery of a biomarker from pre-eclampsia to finding we still don't have that access now. Um, what we need to be doing is saying, okay, how can we do these things in parallel so we're getting good, robust safety data, but data of clinical utility, data of cost effectiveness, and uh uh in a way that is designed around the users, women and and clinicians who need it, so it there will be uptake, and those things are you know, we're gonna need people who decision makers, leaders in the ecosystem to help us um with with that aspect of it.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Great amazing. And what does the success look like for you to program over the next three years? And where do you think startups get contributed?

SPEAKER_01 30:50

I mean, I think really what we're doing now is we've got to a stage where we think we've got potential. Uh we we when we model our technologies, there's potential for reduction in stillbirth. And what's important to say is that's not if they're done individually, it's if we bring them together. Um, and so that's the hard bit now, is us doing the translation not of single technologies but of multiple technologies in a package that works well, that can work in different settings. And that's what we're gonna try and do. So we're looking at um the opportunities for funding this, where we can work with partners and partner countries to uh do uh the the necessary further development, um, research and commercialization required uh for sustainable um to create a sustainable ecosystem uh where we've got change maternity care, all around demonstrating that when we do this, so it's really talking about doing this to scale up in a setting where we can demonstrate a reduction of stillbirth by half. Um our ambition is to have that scaled up across a national nation, at least one nation within 10 years. Uh so that's where we're going next. There's a huge amount of work to do. We're at the early stage where we're catalyzing um, you know, the investment needed uh and planning for that. But what we what I would like, I don't think I'd be sitting with you in 10 years' time, but what I would love to be looking back in 10 years' time and saying, actually, this does work, we can do it and we can get it into the hands of those that need it. Um, because there's you know, two million babies a year that need this.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

What's the one thing you if you have to change to Neybard women's health and what that would be?

SPEAKER_01 32:53

I think there's um you know, I I think there's been a critical change. The women's health is on the agenda, and that's amazing. Lots of people are talking about women's health, and there's a recognition of the problem, and that is amazing. But it I really want to see that catalyzed into action. Tangible action is what I think is needed. Uh, and everyone can contribute to that, but it's actually not I and I think I can be guilty of this myself. There's been a lot of admiring the problem, right? There's a lot of you see a lot of talking about the problems, but we need to get on and start building the solutions. Uh, and and you know, we um we just it's it's like we're waiting for something sometimes, I think, or somebody to say that's okay. Um actually, you know, we just need to start doing it.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Yeah, I totally agree on that. I think there's too much noise, but then we need to bring tangible actions and move the industry forward with some great innovations, and we can empower like the next generation, right? Absolutely. Great. Um, thank you so much, Sara. It was really nice to have you. Absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me, Navnit.