England Rugby’s Former MONSTER | Chris Robshaw Talks The Future of Rugby!

There are two types of people: those who like football and those who prefer watching men in short shorts wrestle each other, score points, and drink beer! Join me for an exclusive interview with Chris Robshaw, the former England rugby captain turned entrepreneur! Dive into Robshaw's journey from the rugby field to the boardroom as we explore his childhood, career highlights, and insights on leadership.

Discover the off-field antics of rugby life, including sponsorship deals and fan interactions, and learn valuable lessons on building a winning culture in business. Plus, gain Robshaw's expert perspective on the future of rugby and its biggest challenges.

Timestamps
0:00 - Intro
1:58 - Childhood - Back to the Beginning
5:18 - Death of Dad
7:23 - Dyslexia
11:38 - Rugby
16:05 - Leniency with Mistakes During a Game
17:50 - What are some Key moments?
19:47 - Did Nerves and Excitement Come Back on that England Game?
22:06 - Outside the Game - Sponsors, Fan Interaction
23:56 - What is the Role of a Captain?
29:17 - What set you apart as a younger captain?
31:49 - How long does Captaincy last?
33:12 - Towards the End of the Career
36:38 - The Honesty of Your Body's Capabilities as you Age
40:25 - Is there much Senior stuff you can do?
42:14 - Rugby Initiations
45:02 - What's the Money Been Like Over Your Career and Relationship with Money
48:44 - Life After Rugby
51:29 - Networking - Wine and Gallagher's
55:29 - Applicable and Transferrable Lessons from Rugby to Business
59:03 - Advice to a Newbie Business Owner on Building a Good Culture Amongst Staff
01:01:06 - Wokeness in Rugby
01:02:48 - Homosexuality in Modern Sport
01:04:58 - What Does the Future Hold?
01:07:14 - Quick View on England Rugby at the moment
01:09:32 - Conclusion

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hill sprints at nine o'clock in the morning, a lot of us being sick. The coach at the time just looked at me and just said never betray me again.

Speaker 2: 0:06

England rugby legend, Chris Robshaw. Thanks a lot for being here, Chris Pleasure yeah, let's get into it. Let's set the scene.

Speaker 1: 0:11

I was very dyslexic. I was very shy. Unfortunately, my father passed at the age of five.

Speaker 2: 0:20

Sport became that kind of happiness.

Speaker 1: 0:21

How old was that when you were all in class and you all had a book to read? I used to fear that coming around to me.

Speaker 2: 0:26

What were your feelings, what were your emotions walking onto the pitch on those big games?

Speaker 1: 0:28

I was terrible because I wasn't in the moment Was it a quick mindset shift? When you start training with these players a lot more you realise they're normal people.

Speaker 2: 0:35

Do you like the fame? Do you enjoy?

Speaker 1: 0:37

the fan interaction when you're winning. I remember fans literally coming up to us ripping the tickets up and throwing them. How dare you guys be out here drinking?

Speaker 2: 0:45

What was it that set you apart from the older ones, the more experienced ones?

Speaker 1: 0:49

Anything you want to get well in, you're going to have ups and downs and it's a rollercoaster. You keep turning up.

Speaker 2: 0:58

Hey, matt Haycox here, with a quick interruption, just to say I hope you're liking the show, but please, please, like, subscribe or comment. That's how we can bring you better guests, that's how we can make the show better each week. So please, please, that's all I ever ask of you. We never charge, we never ask anything else. Just please give us a few moments of your time, guys. Welcome to stripping off with matt haycox, where we strip off our guests metaphorically. Don worry to get to the bottom of their life, their story, their experiences and what we can learn from it. And today we've got none other than the England rugby legend, chris Robshaw. He's a captain, he's a champion and now he's a budding business mastermind. So plenty we can talk about, and thanks a lot for being here, chris.

Speaker 1: 1:43

Pleasure. Thank you very much for having me on board, and let's get into it.

Speaker 2: 1:47

I'm looking at my banana bread feeling very selfish and rude. But Chris actually did have a banana bread, but he wolfed it down so quickly, along with half of my chicken breakfast, that I've got it alone. Listen, there's so much we can talk about, so many angles we can go down, but I guess let's set the scene. Let's talk about your childhood and your beginnings that lead on to the rugby journey.

Speaker 1: 2:11

Yeah, let's go right back. Really, as a kid I was actually very dyslexic. I was very dyslexic, I was very shy. Unfortunately, my father passed at the age of five, when I was five, and for me sport became that kind of happiness. It became that escape from the classroom, it became a place where I gained confidence and structure and all that kind of stuff. And as I got a little bit older, I got a little bit bigger and, of course, a bit of size in rugby is always good, and I probably wasn't skillful enough to play tennis or football or something like that. So I went down more the rugby route tennis or football or something like that. So I went down more the rugby route. I loved it. My friends played um managed to get picked up by harlequins when I was 17 ish. Uh, used to go on my holidays is that like an apprentice type thing?

Speaker 1: 2:53

yeah, like the academy system. So, yeah, you're going your holidays. I remember we used to all stay in the army barracks so there'd be kind of 15 of us in this dorm room all sleeping there. Then we go to training. We had our, I remember when you got a first bit of like harlequin's kit and it was just amazing. You see it on the tv, you see the players wearing it, and then you have your initials on it and it was like wow, this is, this is what it's about had that been a team that you were, you were a supporter of as a kid?

Speaker 2: 3:18

was it? Was that, like you know, your team?

Speaker 1: 3:20

yeah, it was so I'm. I'm kind ofbased, kind of grew up that way. So Harlequins is that team and I actually had a Quinns top as a kid. I don't think it was one where I knew exactly what Harlequins was. But I think my mum thought you know what? It's a nice multicoloured top like four quarters, and you can go in the garden, you can rip it, you can make it messy and dirty and it's durable. So I used to just put it on the whole time every time I was out.

Speaker 1: 3:47

And then, yeah, I used to try and watch the Five Nations when it was out back in the day on the TV, because rugby also wasn't on TV much then. This would be kind of 30-odd years ago, whereas now with TNT, itv, bt and ITV as well, it's on all the time and it's brilliant to promote the game and stuff and there's different leagues we get to see. But back then it was kind of the big finals, the big five nations games, um, so it wasn't as visible. So, going into it I didn't really know what to do or what to expect. So I, like I said, I got picked up by 17, left school, 18, went into the academy system my first year, I remember I got my contract was four thousand my first year. I remember I got my contract was £4,000 a year and I thought I'd made it. It was £333 a month and it was brilliant. I was like you know what I'm earning playing rugby and it was absolutely incredible.

Speaker 1: 4:35

And then, unfortunately, I got injured a lot. Got injured a lot in my first couple of years. First year broke my foot twice. Second year broke my leg. The year after I did my knee ligaments and I was thinking you know what is this game for me? Is your body up to it? Because all of a sudden you were a big kid at school. You're now a young man, 18, 19, going up against men who are 15 years older. You develop stronger. And I remember speaking to my mum and saying you know what? I don't know if my body's up to it this and she gave me some typical motherly advice and said have you tried drinking more milk just to kind of dense up the bones? And um, and actually after that, not so much just the milk, but yeah, when I got to 21 I kind of um played ever since really let's just take a little pause there.

Speaker 2: 5:20

I just want to rewind to, obviously, a couple of key, key events in your childhood. Um, obviously you mentioned the passing of your father. I mean, did you have, uh, did you have brothers, sisters, and was that, um, was that a surprise? He died suddenly, did he?

Speaker 1: 5:34

yeah, he did, unfortunately so I was, my little brother was three, I was five, my older brother was seven, um unfortunately had a heart attack, um, and, as you can imagine, it's always a surprise of something like that and it was an extremely tough, tough situation for my mum to deal with and the whole family kind of rallied around my aunts and uncles.

Speaker 2: 5:56

Can you remember it?

Speaker 1: 5:57

Yes, I remember I was at like a kid's birthday party and just my dad never turned up and it was. Yeah, it was extremely tough, um, and of course a lot of that kind of timing for me was a bit of a blur um, but I think also at that kind of age you don't really understand stuff. So I was just, I was very angry, I was very pent up, I was frustrated with a lot of things, um, and I think also because I wasn't excelling in stuff like the classroom, which you were kind of forced to do and stuff. Yeah, it sometimes got a little bit harder for me.

Speaker 2: 6:30

I mean, do you think it's something that, as a five-year-old, you truly understand at that time? I mean, obviously, I guess you know what death is, but it's presumably different to being 15 or 25 or something. Is it still old enough to to to fully I guess fully understand the, the upset, the heartbreak, or is it just a bit like dad's not around anymore?

Speaker 1: 6:49

yeah, I think it is more that, like, like you said, your dad's dad's not there anymore, unfortunately. A lot of people in your family are sad. You probably don't fully understand why they're that kind of sadness. Um, and now I've got a son myself and you kind of put the finger on the other foot and you think you know what. You want to try to be around so much because unfortunately, my father, like I said, passed. So you want to try to be as hands-on as possible and do all that kind of stuff and have those moments because everyone, like we were talking about before, everyone says it goes so quick. So, yeah, there's definitely a little bit of that which you're trying to make up for.

Speaker 2: 7:24

Let's just talk a little bit about the dyslexia. How old was that when you were diagnosed?

Speaker 1: 7:29

So I was probably 11-ish, 10, 11.

Speaker 2: 7:32

And had that been causing you a lot of problems up until that time? Because I guess you know I always say things like you know dyslexia and ADD, they were proper illnesses 30 years ago. Now everyone gets diagnosed with it just because they've had some shit grades, don't they? But back then I guess it was something that was less diagnosed and more serious.

Speaker 1: 7:51

Yeah, it was, and it was little things like reading spelling Even now, when I'm trying to say what two am I writing, or what there, is it there IE, or all that kind of stuff. And you're still kind of thinking about it. And I remember kind of now, even if I was presenting to the players in like a meeting as as kind of captain or something like that I would always get one of the young guys to come up and do the writing on the board for me and just be like, oh, that's, that's their kind of thing. Um, but one of the biggest things I used to struggle with is when you're all in a class and you all had a book to read. So you'd all have a book to read and you'd all kind of stand up and read your line and then you'd sit down and the next person would read your line or your chapter or something like that.

Speaker 1: 8:39

And for me I used to fear that coming around to me. And then I remember I went to a carol concert a couple of years ago and I was reading in between charles dance, olivia coleman, dawn french he's kind of world-class actors and actresses I've been oh my god, I'm so out of my depth. But I loved it. And if I could say to myself as a kid there, look where you're going to be in 30 odd years time because of all the little steps that that teachers have put into you and your parents and all that kind of stuff have made me stay in breaks times and have made me do extra work after class.

Speaker 1: 9:09

Because as a kid you don't see the benefit. You don't see the benefit. You're like, oh, I hate that teacher, they're making me work again and all that kind of stuff. But those little things really added up for me. So if anyone with dyslexia always asks me, I'm saying just stick with it, stick with it, keep on doing those little increments, because come 10, 15, 20 years' time, your development will be so much greater than you ever thought.

Speaker 2: 9:33

And is it really treatable and fixable or is it like I don't know? If you're colourblind, you're colourblind, you know. I know you can, like you say, train and get better, but do you ever cure it?

Speaker 1: 9:47

Good question, I'm not sure. Actually, I think also, you learn to deal with things and you learn to adapt with things. And I think with stuff like dyslexia, I think it's really helped me think differently, because certain ways of thinking don't apply to. And I always say look when you're, say look when you're, when you're in a group environment, when you're a team environment, team managing, whatever you're going to be. Captaincy, a lot of it is, uh, player management and it's understanding people and it's understanding how to get a message across to you. So I might get a message across to you in a certain way, but a next person won't understand the message how I've related it to you. So I have to think of something completely different to speak to them. And I think with stuff like dyslexia and other things, you get a little bit more creative with your approaches because you have to think a little bit more outside the box. And for me, I'm much more a hands-on learner. Um, so we would do kind of team tactics or stuff and it'll be written on like the tv screen or the whiteboard and half of us have no idea what's been happened, because half of us are physical learners, we want to be outside walking through it and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 10:50

And I think now in the schooling systems and they're helping children with stuff like that, they're thinking you know what? We went to look at a school the other day. They have tables on the floor because some kids prefer to learn sat on the floor, and stuff like that, which I I mean same as you as a kid. Your desk was all forward facing it, was all that. But also they know that the jobs now in the future are going to be like that. They're going to be working from home. They might be working from a kitchen sofa, or do you know what I mean? So they have to be able to kind of get their message across slightly differently and so they can understand.

Speaker 2: 11:30

I was hoping you were going to say a bit more. That's why I ate mine before.

Speaker 1: 11:36

Well, I didn't have any actually.

Speaker 2: 11:39

Let's go back to your rugby career then. So you said you've been playing since 21, 22, ever since. Talk me through that kind of debut moment. I guess you've had your injuries, you've had the academy, you've been on and off. Who was your first main team or first professional team when you went out onto a first team game?

Speaker 1: 12:01

Yeah, so with Harlequins, like I said, we unfortunately as a team got relegated in 20 oh sorry, 2007-ish 6-7. Yeah, unfortunately with that a lot of bigger names left and we probably didn't recruit as many because obviously it's not as attractive to go to a championship side.

Speaker 2: 12:25

And is that your first year? That's when you were.

Speaker 1: 12:27

Well, no, that was my second year but the year we got relegated we were kind of academy so we didn't really play. So then because of that it gave us an opportunity. It gave a lot of the younger players more of an opportunity, whereas if we'd stayed in the premiership we wouldn't have had that because we would have brought in more players or more players would have been around, bigger budgets, all that kind of stuff. So we had that opportunity to play.

Speaker 1: 12:50

So I think my debut was a team called Pert and Bees in Birmingham, which aren't around anymore, and I remember with our coach, dean Richards, an amazing England number eight, a legend of the game, coach, captain, won everything with Leicester but he would often play me for the lesser games and then play the more experienced players for the big games, and every time he would drop me he would say, look, we're going for experience.

Speaker 1: 13:17

And every week I'd be like, well, how do I get experience in it if I don't play? And we would literally just have this kind of chicken and egg situation. But he was great to me. He was a great supporter. He was one of those players or one of those coaches or DORs who would back you to the heels publicly and if anything happened, he would support you. But if you did something wrong behind closed doors he would let you know. And he was a big tough man and you didn't really want to cross him and man a few words, but no, he gave me my first opportunity and a lot of the young guys who came through the Harlequin system. He was a big partner.

Speaker 2: 13:52

What were your feelings? What were your emotions? How did it feel walking onto the pitch on those big games, having been a kid and always wanted to get there? Was there fear? Was?

Speaker 1: 14:03

there excitement. You know what? One of my games, so I my first one was probably a pre-season game actually, which they don't count as like a competitive game, and my first one there was in this harlequin side at the time with a guy called andrew mertens who was a new zealand all-black legend of the game, and if anyone's ever played joan lamey rugby, he's like the main person and stuff like the one of them, um, a previous South African captain called Andre Boss, who also mentored me which is amazing World Cup winner Will Greenwood, um, amongst many others. And I remember in that first half of that game I was looking around thinking, oh my god, I'm playing with x, y and z and I've just caught the ball for that and I terrible.

Speaker 1: 14:45

I was terrible because I wasn't in the moment. I was so worried about everyone else and all that kind of stuff. And after that moment and I actually didn't play for a while after that because I didn't play well I was so worried about this person, that person, and after that I was like I'm never going to do that again. I'm going to be in the moment, I'm going to face the team on the pitch, I'm going to focus on the players and I'm going to be good enough to be in the room and not worry about saying, oh, I'm with this person and that person, because that you don't play well. So you've got to be in the moment and you've got to enjoy it and don't get too kind of overcome by the atmosphere.

Speaker 2: 15:20

And how do? Was it a quick mindset shift or was it just practice doing more and more of it?

Speaker 1: 15:25

Yeah, I think doing more and more of it. I think when you start training with these players a lot more you realise they're normal people, they're good fun off the pitch, they can be intense, they work you hard and all this kind of stuff. But I think you get drawn into a name sometimes, don't you? You're like, oh, I've got to act differently around that person. And then people often say they meet someone. They're like oh, they were so nice and normal and it's like what do you expect? And that's kind of for me what it took. So, yeah, unfortunately I didn't play for probably about a month after that and I got an opportunity and I just said to myself look, you're in this now just go and play, do what you do. Well, and that was great.

Speaker 2: 16:06

How do the other players in the team treat someone when they have dropped a ball or failed a pass or whatever the appropriate rugby terms are, you know? I mean, ok, mishaps happen here and there, but if someone has a really shit game, like they say, you're distracted, you've got issues at home, you've got nerves, whatever it is, you know you're dropping balls left, right and centre. I mean, do you get a good kicking from the team when you get in the changing room?

Speaker 1: 16:32

I think it all depends on what it is. I think that no one wants to drop a ball Like you. Don't try to do something like that. You don't try and miss a tackle. But of course, if you're doing that a lot, you've got to work in it and then things have to be done.

Speaker 1: 16:47

However, there was a great example in a game who just happened saracens v harlequins. Unfortunately, saracens won really, really convincingly, but harlequins is pack scrum wise. It's so much more dominant than the saracens pack. So with that in the week saracens would have spoken about you know, we don't want to get into scrums, so we don't want to force passes and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: 17:08

Saracens came out of the block really aggressively. They started well, but one of their players forced an offload and the ball got dropped. So all week they would have said look, we don't want to force anything because we don't want to get scrums. So all of a sudden, within the first five minutes, so that's, that's not a mistake, that's almost like a false mistake, a false error. Um, then you'd go in and the player and say you know what that's. That's a stupid thing to do, because we've spoken all week, we're clear-minded at the moment, and now we've given them an opportunity to get back in the game. So I think if there's you're going against tactics, you're going against all that kind of stuff, you go off script, then yeah, you can go in on players. However, if you drop a ball because you I don't know you made a mistake, then that's a little bit different.

Speaker 2: 17:53

So, going back to the club you're playing for and your career, when do things move on? What are some key moments? When do you start to really find your feet?

Speaker 1: 18:01

Yeah, so since then I captained Harlequins at 23.

Speaker 2: 18:08

I captained England at 25. So I think your first England game was 2012.

Speaker 1: 18:14

Yeah, so it was no sorry, my debut was 2009. So when the Lions went away, so the Lions went away and with that a lot of the England players got called up to that. So the Lions just went Ireland, england, scotland and Wales kind of combined to go and play a Southern Hemisphere side. So a lot of the England players got called up to that, which meant a lot of players who hadn't played for England generally get an opportunity around there or they go play someone else. So we toured Argentina and I had that opportunity to go with England. I'd made my debut. Unfortunately we lost the game.

Speaker 1: 18:48

But so we toured Argentina and I had that opportunity to go with England. I'd made my debut. Unfortunately we lost the game. But then the Lions guys came back and unfortunately I didn't play. I was in and out of training squads but I didn't quite play or make it. So then my next opportunity with England to play, I was captain in England on my second appearance, which was, and in the tournament I'd never ever played in, which was. So it is pretty intimidating but it's great to be part of.

Speaker 2: 19:09

Is that rare in rugby and sport in general that on your second game in something you would be the captain?

Speaker 1: 19:15

Yeah, pretty rare, I think you often, Because you gain experience the more you do something, the older you get and the more experience you generally get. But we were a new group generally and the coach at the time. We wanted to put so the older you get, the more experience you generally get. But we were a new group generally and the coach at the time. We wanted to put a new mark on it and a lot of us had come into it for the first time the greats of English rugby, what they are now, the Owen Farrells, Benny Kares, all this kind of stuff, the Marlers they hadn't had much experience. A lot of them had zero caps. Myself, like I said, only had one. So we were starting from scratch and it was about putting a new identity on this side.

Speaker 2: 19:48

And how did it feel in that first England game? I mean, obviously you've been playing rugby for many years. At this point You've already been a successful captain of your home team. But do nerves come back? Does excitement come back? I assume it's every sportsman's dream to play for their country yeah, it is definitely nerves, definitely nerves.

Speaker 1: 20:09

And I remember that first kind of huddle. I'd spoken in huddles loads for England but it was different that first one as captain and I remember speaking in that first one and I probably said a load of rubbish. And then Andy, and Andy Farrell, who was our defence coach, who's now Ireland head coach, came up to me after and he was captain Great Britain at a young age, like 20 or something really successful. And he says, look now just go out there and be yourself, don't worry about all that kind of stuff, the hard bit's done and just kind of do what you did to put you in this position. So that was really useful. But then also our first game was away in Murrayfield in Scotland and we were kind of introducing down to Princess Anne and all the players and you're trying to remember their proper names, not their nicknames and stuff, because you don't call each other that. So you're trying to remember what was this guy's first name. So that was good.

Speaker 1: 20:58

But also what makes you probably more nervous and kind of, because you train on, like a Friday morning you have a captain's run, you do final preparation, all that kind of stuff. Then that afternoon you'll go back to the hotel. You'll might have a meeting, but it's mainly just recovery have some physio massage, eat well and try and relax until the game. So that kind of window can be quite long. But everyone means so well. So you get so many like messages of good luck and all that and then then you're like, oh, I just want to like Everyone's being so nice.

Speaker 1: 21:27

But it makes you feel more nervous because you see how important the game is and how kind of much it means to people. But then once you get to that game, I always say to people that's the best moment when you get to the stadium. That's it, because for those 100 minutes you get to do what you always loved and that's the best players in your country against the best players in their country. In the amazing stadiums. Fans everywhere cheering, supporting, because as soon as you're finished there'll be a camera in someone's face, there'll be recovery, they'll be on to the next game, they'll be seeing the sponsors. But those 100 minutes is what it's all about and that's why it's so special, do you?

Speaker 2: 22:07

enjoy the bit outside the 100 minutes? Do you like the fame? Do you enjoy the fan interaction? Do you like dealing with sponsors?

Speaker 1: 22:14

Yeah, I do, and don't get me wrong, when you're winning it's a lot more fun than when you're losing, especially those fan interactions, because people can come in in you a little bit. When you're, when you're not winning which is fine, you kind of understand it and you take the rock with a smooth a little bit. But of course, yeah, look, you get to do some pretty fun things on the back of of captaining your country or kind of playing for England and stuff like that and and it's great. But I remember also the bad things. We went to Wales a couple of years ago, 2013. Went down there in kind of hopes of a grand slam or winning a championship. Last game of the campaign, roof was closed, an amazing stadium and we got beat heavily. Got beat heavily, unfortunately, and we went back to the hotel bar Nothing crazy, we weren't going out.

Speaker 1: 23:05

But when you lose a game or when you make a mistake in a game, you're literally overplaying that thing and people say players don't care. Players care more than anyone else you can ever imagine. They'll be playing that moment over and ahead. They won't sleep, probably till four in the morning. They'll wake up at six, feel horrendous, their body will be aching um, and we went down to the hotel bar just pretty much the whole team end of the campaign had a couple of beers nothing, nothing, crazy. And I remember fans literally coming up to us ripping the tickets up and throwing them like how dare you guys be out here drinking? And we're like, mate, come on, like we get. We gave everything, it didn't work for us and we're gonna go to our room, sit there and sulk and not do anything. So to have a couple of beers like two or three beers will help you sleep a little bit, we hope. But it's that type of reaction which is tough when you lose.

Speaker 2: 23:57

Just talk to me a bit about captaincy in general, because I guess, as a non-sporty type person, I never really understand the kind of full role of a captain. You know like where does a captain, what does a captain do versus the manager, is it? I mean, is there actually, let's say, formal job and responsibilities, or is it just the figurehead of the team?

Speaker 1: 24:17

Yeah, there is a little bit. So, look, I would like I said I captained the Tyler Coons at 23 for about four years. I also captained Tyler Coons at 23 for about four years. I also captained them about 32 for a couple of years as well, before I left. And I think I also captained them in two very different ways, because when I was 23, I must admit, I was probably an insecure captain. I was captaining guys 10-15 years older than me. I thought you know what? I've got to put my mark on things. Everything is going to be stick orientated. It's got to be my idea, all that kind of stuff. Um, every punishment was fitness. You were late, it was fitness. You gave penalties ways, it was fitness and you're dishing out the punishment, yeah yeah, and because, again, you put your mark on it.

Speaker 1: 24:53

So, but of course you need to have a good group of leadership groups around you and I think with captaincy as well, it can be a lonely place. You do need to have that support. Um, but then when I was 32 captain and captain and guys I know who were 18, it was very much a carrot, orientated and trying to get the best out of people and speak to people a little bit more and openly and say what's wrong and because also, people were different. People evolved rugby and moved forward. It wasn't the old kind of cliches of toughen up, stop being soft, all those kind of those crap things people say. It was more about how do you get more out of the individual.

Speaker 1: 25:29

But yeah, definitely in a captaincy role and a leadership role, it's got to be a 24-7 thing. I think if you're captain, you can't pick and choose your days and that's often the hard thing. That's why you need good people to support you. I think also, as a captain of a team, you need to be able to be in a player's camp, but you also need to be in a coach's camp and there's times when you have to support each other.

Speaker 2: 25:51

And as captain, do you work with the coach, with the manager and stuff, as in. You'll effectively come away from the rest of the team and take your playing hat off and put your captain hat on and say right coach, right manager. This is what we all need to be doing?

Speaker 1: 26:08

Yeah, definitely I would have sit downs with England or Quinns or whatever, with coaches and you would know, potentially, who was going to be dropped and who wasn't. I remember there was a stage where my roommate was being dropped but I couldn't tell him and it's that kind of thing and it's that kind of privacy you're told with. But other times you get the players point of view and they feel exhausted, they've been working too hard, they don't like this drill or they think the mindset, the approach coming down is wrong. And you have to go and speak to the coaches and you have to be very honest. And I remember when I was a young captain and probably when I first learned about the kind of trust you get from a coach and the kind of information you're privy to.

Speaker 1: 26:49

So we had played. I can't remember we had a short week, so that basically means we played Sunday, then we're playing Saturday, so we didn't have quite a full week to recover. And then we were told you know what we're in on Monday, we're going to be kind of recovery based walkthroughs, but we can't afford to miss a day and our coach at the time had said you know what he said to me privately. Look, we're going to be off, but I just don't want the players going on a night out, so I'm going to send a message out at half six in the morning. No one should have left their house yet, so when they wake up they'll see the message and they can go back to sleep or whatever.

Speaker 1: 27:22

So, me being us having a bit of a young side of me, being a bit of a naive captain, I, um we went out for a couple of beers and the guys we were all kind of like, oh let's, we should probably go home now and I let slip. You know what we're going to be off tomorrow. Don't worry, we'll get a message tomorrow. So we had a bit of a big night, um, as you do we. We went, went home, had our sleeps.

Speaker 2: 27:47

Unfortunately that message never came.

Speaker 1: 27:48

And we were on the hill doing hill sprints at nine o'clock in the morning and a lot of us being sick, and I remember the coach at the time just looked at me and just said never betray me again.

Speaker 2: 27:59

And why did it happen? Did he just change his mind or did he know that he'd gone out of the best?

Speaker 1: 28:03

Yeah, he'd found out and that for me was a big learning curve.

Speaker 1: 28:11

Um, and then since that moment I've never, if you're told stuff in certain camps, you, you have to do it and. But also the other side is and this, when it could be a lonely place leadership and captaincy and, like you're obviously a successful businessman, when you have to sit down with your mates and say you know what, that wasn't good enough, you've let us down. Why are you doing that kind of thing? Obviously with a bit more probably intent, and that can be really hard because, especially when I was young and trying to do that, you'd have to boot yourself up because you know they would go off to the other mates or the other boys and probably slag you off. But that became part of the role when you almost had to separate yourself from the squad a bit in terms of that, because you have to sometimes have those tough conversations, little things like.

Speaker 1: 28:52

I remember Captain England. I didn't really do much for the team room and then, when I wasn't captain, I remember going to play FIFA with some of the boys for the first time and thinking it's amazing I should have been doing this more often.

Speaker 2: 29:03

But sometimes you feel you have to remove yourself a bit do you get a pay rise as a captain, or is it just an honor?

Speaker 1: 29:10

uh, it's just an honor, um, I don't know, you might have been one of the higher earners of the team, but with England or anything like that, you don't.

Speaker 2: 29:18

And when you were the young captain, you said you were 23 and you had guys materially older than you. What was it that set you apart from the older ones, the more experienced ones, that made the coach, or whoever dishes it out, think that you should have been the captain of that team?

Speaker 1: 29:34

Yeah, it's an interesting question. Really, I think the biggest thing for leaders and things is you've got to be authentic to yourself. You've got to be authentic. Of course, you've got to learn from others and try and evolve and move forward, but the biggest thing that I think is what a leader can do, or what someone who wants to go far, because there is no smooth sailing. Anything you want to do well in, you're going to have ups and downs and it's a roller coaster. The biggest thing I think I did, and and what I see people do, is you keep turning up, you keep turning. It's no secret remedy, there's no thing, but good or bad days, yes, you can have a sulk, you can have a mope, you lick your wounds, but you still get back out there and and that's what's really important, that's what I felt I did. I would always, always turn up. I'd want to improve, I'd want to get better, um, and I was supported by other people, but for me, that was that was it.

Speaker 2: 30:25

I mean, how did you learn leadership? How did you learn captain simmy, particularly at 23? Okay, fine, you've, you've worked under some other captains, but I mean you're still it's still very, very young very inexperienced. Did you have support? Did you have mentors? Did you go home and read books on leadership?

Speaker 1: 30:43

Yeah, all of the above. Really, I love reading books, I love autobiographies, trying to pick people's brains, but I want to take it a step further, so I'd like to go and speak to. For me, I learned massively from people who'd been in the arena and done it and kind of really witnessed it and kind of seen and failed. You don't, like I said, everyone has failed somewhere and it's trying to think and more often than not they come back all in a similar way and I think for me it was going to see previous international captains. I saw Delaglio, tony Adams, footballer Strauss, alistair Cook, kevin Sinfield they're obviously a legend, all these type of guys and picking their brains.

Speaker 1: 31:22

And I remember I came back once and thought you know what I'm going to be this person, he's told me something, I'm going to try that. And I went into the rugby team room to present and the boys literally laughed me out of the room and the rugby environment can be pretty unforgiving. But then again I tried something else and it really resonated with the players. So I think you, you have to learn and you have to evolve, but you have to do it in your style, because you still have to be people who still have to buy into you. Um, so be authentic, I think, is the other thing. But if you don't evolve, then you're do people stay as a captain?

Speaker 2: 31:52

is it kind of like a? It's a one-year gig and it rotates? If you're a good captain, do you stay as captain until you're no longer with that team?

Speaker 1: 32:00

Yeah, it's kind of up to you. What was really hard? I captained England and Queens for a lot of the same period. So you would leave so say you would have a campaign with England, you would go home on a Sunday, play Saturday debrief on a Sunday, go home, put your England bag away, pack your Quinns bag. Monday morning you go to Quinns and then you're because you've been away a lot and you're captain the coach wants you to get up at the front and kind of take over now, whereas that emotionally and mentally, was so tough.

Speaker 1: 32:32

I remember again after that Wales game I was in the gym Monday morning after being beaten on a Saturday badly, a bit of abuse and stuff would come my way Doing weights. And I remember looking to one of the boys and going I don't know what I'm doing. I just went home. I said to the coach look, I've just got to go, I'm just not in the right headspace, I'm not in the right thing, and it was probably a little bit before people started taking mental health really seriously and I definitely suffered on the back of that stuff and I just needed a couple of days just to get myself kind of through it. But with captaincy, yeah, I did it for four years with Coons, four years with England and then another two come the end.

Speaker 2: 33:19

Let's just talk a bit further through your career then I guess you know past 2015 and in some of your later teams and what wound things down for you to end up quitting eventually.

Speaker 1: 33:25

Yeah. So when I was 34, I was at Quinns. I was in one of my last year, my last year, my contract and I was the oldest back row by eight years and I was starting to be caught. I knew I probably wasn't the player I once was and, like I said, I'd started for the club since I was 21 or something like that, and I didn't want to just, in a selfish way, kind of slip into the back and maybe it was a bit of an ego thing, maybe it was a pride thing, but I knew I wasn't quite ready to call it a day. So I thought, you know what? I didn't want to go to France or Japan, where it's different language.

Speaker 1: 34:03

France is an extremely physical league. They're extremely big. My body was not as strong as it once was as well. So I thought, you know what, let's go and have a life experience. So I went over to San Diego. I played over there for 18 months, diego, I played over there for 18 months, which I mean I don't know if you've been to- San Diego, but it's beautiful.

Speaker 1: 34:21

I would, I would move back. Yeah, I would move back in a heartbeat. I loved it and for me, the ocean's a massive mental escape. Just being in the water is. There's something really calming for me about it. Um, so we do training instead of going in the wheelie being ice bath, we're going down the beach and sitting in there, sitting in the water for 20 minutes or something like that, and, um, yeah, played over there and it was a very different experience mentally. It allowed me to relax a bit and slowly unwind and almost separate myself from the rugby aspect, because I remember I, when I used to speak to people, I saw tony adams, the old arsenal winning, the footballer, legend of the game.

Speaker 1: 34:54

Of course, he had his battles as well and he was like what are you going to do next? And I said I do a bit of this, that and that, but I don't do anything properly. And he said, look, that's the issue. People always try when they finish careers, sport whatever try comparing it to running out in front of 80,000 people, in front of 10, 000 people at the street. You can't. Nothing you ever do is going to give you that buzz. So unfortunately, you have to say you know what that chapter of my life was amazing.

Speaker 1: 35:23

But it's over not to say that, whatever you do next, you can't get fulfillment, satisfaction, enjoyment, all those kind of things. But it is different. So when people say, oh, how do you replace it? You can't. And that is one of the actual, the toughest things. When people go, how do you? You can't.

Speaker 1: 35:40

And that's when I miss the game. I don't miss the game often. I don't miss rugby. I miss the occasion running out of twickenham, running out of stoop, all those kind of things, the big derby games, that's what you miss and even now that gets my my juices going. Um, but, like I said, you get fulfillment and satisfaction elsewhere. So, yeah, to go over to America where all of a sudden you're playing in front of 1,000 people instead of 15,000 people, is a much more relaxed environment. I was cruising around on an electric bike trying to surf. Yeah, it was really good. Our son was actually born over there. I'd always lived in kind of southwest London. So from going from southwest London, a kind of towny house where you're living on each other, to going over there where there's space and everyone's outdoor, and hiking mentally, for me it was really refreshing and it allowed me to come back to England in a really good kind of mental space.

Speaker 2: 36:32

And that was the last team you played for coming back to England. You came back to start a new, non-rugby life.

Speaker 1: 36:37

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:38

So just another question on finishing off. You said when you were at Quinns you were noticing you weren't the player you used to be. Your body wasn't what it once was. I mean, is it common to be that honest with yourself in sport? Because I would imagine that so many of the biggest sports guys, particularly someone who's captain of the country, captain of the team, comes with a massive ego and you almost think that you're invincible, you'll last forever. I'm still kicking everyone's ass. Do you think that honesty is a reasonably rare quality with people like you? I mean?

Speaker 1: 37:15

possibly.

Speaker 2: 37:15

I definitely know some people who don't have it the club kicking and screaming yeah, basically and say blame everyone else before you blame yourself and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 37:25

Yeah, I don't know. I've always been. I like to think I've always been pretty level-headed with stuff and for me, the club was brilliant to me and the support they've given me and, like I said, to support as a boy, a boy to captain and to win stuff with them, to celebrate, I mean, when I left, they honoured me with a bar. I've got a bar at a stoop, which is incredible with a kind of merchandise not merchandise with kind of old memorabilia and stuff like that and it's amazing and you want to be honest by them and look, I mean, if they came back to me now and said, you know what, can you, can we get a year out of you?

Speaker 1: 38:02

I don't know how long I would last. I would last about five minutes. If that, as long as the ball didn't come anywhere near me, I'd probably be all right. Um, but yeah, I think you, just knowing yourself and even training, now I feel like one of those old rocky movies trying to make you come back and you think you're okay, and then you see like a video of it or something you're like, oh no, I was.

Speaker 1: 38:22

Yeah, it's probably the right time is.

Speaker 2: 38:23

Is it nice to not have to train as hard as you did, or do you? Or do you still take? Uh, take your exercise as seriously as back then?

Speaker 1: 38:30

yeah, no, I definitely take, take it as seriously. Um, so I last year I did the lond Marathon again. I just needed something. I'd retired I was probably like most retired people who had been professional sports but enjoyed retired life a little bit too much. A little bit too many nice meals, too many extra drinks and stuff like that and it was. It was catching up on the waistline and so I signed up to the marathon.

Speaker 1: 38:54

For I need, I need to focus, I need it. It's hard for me, who and I think a lot of sports people find this. Actually, you've always trained with people. So when you go to the gym, I train with two other players. You have an S&C coach who helps you, tells you what to do, all that kind of stuff. So you go to the gym. Now you're on your own, there's not many people around. You're kind of thinking of your own stuff. To motivate yourself when you don't have a goal is, uh, is quite tough. So I have so much envy for people who manage to do that pre-work, post-work, uh, lunch times. So for me, yeah, it's definitely trying to manage that. So now I'm trying to sign up to little fitness games or something, just to look. I'm not gonna be a crossfit champion or anything like that. But at least being in it gives me a bit more of a focus to train a little bit harder and maybe eat a little bit better. Same we just had our banana bread.

Speaker 2: 39:43

But I still enjoy retirement. I still am retired and fried chicken katsu. Well, yeah, that was off camera.

Speaker 1: 39:50

But also like I miss the levels your body got to. That's what I miss and I know I won't be able to get anywhere near that now. I remember with England we would have there was a stage where we're doing wrestling at six in the morning and then doing three or four sessions a day and then doing it again in a sandpit at like six o'clock in the evening, and it's that type of thing which now my body would not be able to think. But you look back and you see videos of the weights you used to live and now I wouldn't even be able to squat with what I was kind of pushing with one arm and stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 40:26

It's the most senior stuff that you can do. I know a couple of the guys I know out in Dubai. They're playing the sevens over there and things. Is that something that you can get involved in?

Speaker 1: 40:33

Yeah, I've been asked to do stuff like that, but unfortunately in San Diego I just looked at my shoulder Last game as well last game, yeah, and I think. I was arm and an arm if I was ever going to play or do another year, and I think that was just that final was it always going to?

Speaker 2: 40:46

was it always going to be the last game?

Speaker 1: 40:48

yeah, it was in my head, but there's always that thought, like you said, can I do it again? And I think that for me was my body just saying you're done, you're done, I mean, if ever there solution. But yeah, a lot of um, I do get a lot asked to play a lot in these kind of vets games and legends games and all that kind of stuff. I've I've too many mates who have played in them and because you're competitive, you say, oh, you take it, but you don't, you don't, you're, you're, you're committed stuff.

Speaker 1: 41:14

And I know too many people who have ruptured biceps or dislocated shoulders. And you know, when you're doing it professionally and you have full-time physio and all that kind of stuff, it is a job really, although it doesn't feel like it, you have the equipment to get you through injuries. But when you're doing it for a bit of fun, I think yeah. So for me I haven't had to scratch that itch yet. I'm sure in maybe 10 years, 5, 10 years' time, when you want to catch up with all your mates and go, yeah, play in Dubai in the sun Ten years time you'll be looking like Stallone.

Speaker 1: 41:49

Well, yeah, I know, yeah.

Speaker 2: 41:51

Or yeah, the big guy hanging over his shorts, or something.

Speaker 1: 41:53

I'll be that guy. You'll be like.

Speaker 2: 41:56

I thought I recognised him.

Speaker 1: 41:58

But that's also one of my fears actually. I don't want to be that in a vain way, where someone looks at you and goes didn't that used to be Chris Robshaw or something? And then you again you've ballooned up and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 42:10

So in my head that's actually one of my big drivers to try and stay in shape well, we're going to move on in a second to talk about the second chapter of your life, I guess your life after rugby. But we can't finish talking about rugby without you telling me one or two initiation stories. I forget what the story is, but we had Haskell on the podcast. I was telling you just before we started and he told me some ridiculous story. I can't even remember it to say, but I'm sure people ended up naked in front of the team owner's wife or something like that. I don't know. Rings any bells? We're going to have to dig that one out and send it to you.

Speaker 2: 42:46

Have you got any stories to?

Speaker 1: 42:47

share. Maybe that's four. Yeah, not on here With England. Actually, you have to sing a song. So you have to sing a song, amongst some other things which alcohol-related and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: 43:05

And we played my debut was over in Argentina and when you play in Argentina, france, italy the banquets they have after the game are amazing the food, the spreads, all that kind of stuff and they make a real feast of it, where it's as much of the day as the game is. And I'd had a lot of drinks, because my first day and you have a lot of drinks with players. And then I've just heard my name saying can Chris Robshaw come up and basically get his first cap? So you go up and the president presents your cap. He says a couple of words oh, great game, all that kind of stuff, well done. And, as I was sneaking off again, james Haskell. So James Haskell had spoken to the president and said on their debut, they have to sing on stage. They don't. We normally sing in the bus on the way back, so it's just a squad and then we're singing them. So I go on stage.

Speaker 1: 43:46

There's probably 500 people in this room, of which 97 probably only speak spanish. Uh, so I'm uh, I'm pretty intoxicated at the time and the president says oh, I hear you, you owe us a song and, like I said, I'm pretty drunk at the time and I think you know what. Yeah, I do owe you a song and I'm a terrible singer. I'm tone deaf my wife is definitely the singer of the family and I go okay, so I'm going to sing Build Me Up Buttercup. And I sing Build Me Up Buttercup and it is so bad and you can see, like obviously the England boys are laughing. All the Argentinians in the room have no idea what's happening because they're just Spanish speaking and I sing and then I kind of yeah, I think I've nailed that and, as I leave, I just thank you for your time, I've been brilliant and drop the mic and walk off. And it was yeah, it was a serious crash and burn moment.

Speaker 2: 44:37

All the rugby boys are cheering you presuming what? Everyone else is looking at. What the fuck? Yeah, what's just happened Now you've said that. I remember that Hask said he sung a song I don't know where it was, but it was Fucker Gently. You know the one I mean by Tenacious D and then he told us he had to sing that somewhere and then he actually gave us a little rendition on the podcast. Yeah, I'm not a singer.

Speaker 2: 45:00

I've had too many waters, don't worry, we won't subject you to that. Let's go life after rugby and I guess, just before we do again, let's set the scene on that. Let's just talk a little bit about money. You mentioned at the beginning that I think your first, your first contract was like £4,000 and you really felt like you'd made it. I mean, how's the money been over your career and how have you been in terms of your relationship with money? You know, do you appreciate your playing career is going to end? Are you a saver, a spender, an investor?

Speaker 1: 45:33

Yeah, look, it's an interesting one. I was lucky, I got paid well by Gwynns and with England you earn well and stuff. And I always say people are like oh, do rugby players earn as much as footballers? And no, they don't.

Speaker 2: 45:47

What's a top rugby player earning?

Speaker 1: 45:48

Yeah. So I say rugby guys probably earn what a footballer earns in a week and a year. So you'll have the big players who will earn probably 250 to kind of that 750-ish, and then the squad guys probably, yeah, between the 100 mark somewhere in that line, the academy a bit, obviously less.

Speaker 2: 46:06

Is that all from playing, or is that 250 to 750? Is that also an accumulation of sponsorships and off-pitch things as well, or is that what they'd actually get?

Speaker 1: 46:14

So that would probably be their club salaries, and then with England you would earn 20-odd thousand a game, depending on the thing. But then you might have some of the bigger players may have separate endorsements through boot deals or car sponsors or or bits like that, um, so all kind of varies. So yeah, like I said, you do earn, you do earn very well, but it's not enough to go and sit on the beach and retire for the rest of your life, even if you invest well.

Speaker 2: 46:39

Maybe we invest with you and there might be something about.

Speaker 1: 46:44

So yeah. So for me it was yeah, trying to, I was. I would always like to spend money on experiences, so I'd like to go on a nice holiday or something like that, but I wasn't a big spender in, I don't know, flashy clothes and all that kind of stuff. I wasn't too worried.

Speaker 2: 46:57

And had you been investing through your career?

Speaker 1: 46:59

Yeah, I had. I'd done the usual thing where stocks and shares, the kind of safety stuff. I'd done a bit of property. I've got a couple of coffee shops um where did that?

Speaker 2: 47:11

where did that come about?

Speaker 1: 47:12

again, it's more, I think, once you had the kind of the safety aspect of it. I mean stocks and shares quite boring really, aren't they? Uh, for me, I always like to invest in people. I think people and I think if people have and it doesn't always have to be the best idea, but I think you can often tell someone who's going to succeed. It might not be the first thing they succeed with, uh, but generally they're gonna make something happen. Um, and a group of friends we got together and kind of, yeah, wanted to, wanted to get involved and do something a little bit different. I had some money at the time and I thought why not give this a go? And that was good fun. Yeah, josie's, down in the Hampshire region I'm involved in a suit brand, an events company. But then on the other side, I've also had some bits which have caused me a lot of issues. Me and my wife, we stupidly invested in film which anyone, listen, don't do it.

Speaker 2: 48:01

Don't do it. Were you investing for the investment or were you investing for the tax break?

Speaker 1: 48:06

For the investment, right, yeah, for the investment. And again more, just a bit of fun, a bit of a gamble, and it really was a gamble. But then there's other things. Like I said, I've done some stuff recently in a Myomaster product, a recovery product, okay, and they the product, the recovery product, um, and they were just on dragon's den get an investment from gary neville and one of the others, I can't remember who, um, so again there's. I like to have a range. It's a bit of fun, isn't it like a lot of them. Of course you want to do well and succeed, um, but rather than just putting it all in stocks and shares, I want to see the product do well. Of course, um, but also I love seeing something out there and being oh yeah, that's well, or hearing someone talk about it in a good light.

Speaker 2: 48:46

So you've finished playing, you've got some investments, you've earned well, but not enough to retire. Did you know what you were going to do immediately after you finished? Or did you think well, I know I need to do something, but I've got a bit of time to find my feet, I don't need to rush into it. Yeah, I know I need to do something, but I've got a bit of time to find my feet.

Speaker 1: 49:04

I don't need to rush into it. Yeah, I didn't know. And everyone asks when you probably get to around the 30 mark in sport, everyone says so, what are you going to do next? And it used to drive me mad because I didn't know. And you would try and find I knew I didn't want to coach, I knew I didn't want it, didn't enjoy it.

Speaker 1: 49:28

Um, it's tough, it's stressful, it's a it's a big time commitment and for me, I loved playing the game. I love playing the game. I I did, of course, analysis and stuff, but I wasn't. You get some players who's so analysis driven and stuff and they watch every clip and all that kind of stuff and I did bits of that, but I wasn't too excited by that side of the game. Um, yeah, so I knew I didn't really want to go.

Speaker 1: 49:46

I'd given a lot of weekends, up time, commitments, all that kind of stuff for playing, because I love playing, but it's also to sacrifice your family after making all that kind of stuff. So I wanted to be around a bit. Um, so, yeah, I didn't want to go now and I've always been a bit business-minded with kind of investment bits and family little bits. But no, I didn't have a clear solution. I didn't have a clear solution and I actually met and I think you're just going to get out there and meet people and it's almost finding out what you don't enjoy as well, and that's kind of half the battle.

Speaker 2: 50:16

And I actually met someone at an airport.

Speaker 1: 50:18

I met someone at the airport. Someone came and said from gallagher insurance, and they had a similar conversation. They said, oh, so what are you going to do? And I said, well, I don't know. And they're like, well, why don't you come and try a couple of days a week with us, see if you enjoy it? Um, so I do, yeah, two days a week with gallagher. And then also I went, I went to a duo and met someone from phoenix, fine wine investment, um, and I do a day a week with them.

Speaker 1: 50:38

A similar thing, like like each other's approach, got chatting and really getting into that kind of wine side as well, the tastings, I mean the trips down to Bordeaux and Chateaus. They're not bad, are they? I go to Tuscany in a couple of weeks as well. So, look, there's some great opportunities. And then me and my wife and this is what we're really passionate about set a foundation up called the Kerslake-Robshire Foundation to empower young lives through music and sport, and that for us is we'd always helped other charities and stuff and, as I said, rugby's been very good to me and music's very good to my wife, and we thought you know what? Unfortunately everyone's not so lucky and everyone doesn't have those opportunities. So let's get out there and try and help and to this point, so far, I think we've raised just over 200,000 for various causes around the country, sticking to our pillars of music and sport.

Speaker 2: 51:30

Amazing. Just going back to the wine and the Gallaghers, what is your role within those? Are you bringing in contacts? Are you being a face? What do you do?

Speaker 1: 51:40

Yeah, so a bit of both.

Speaker 2: 51:41

yeah, so a lot of business development kind of side of things. And and is that, is that um, new relationships, new business development for you? Or you, are you leaning in on your existing network? And I guess it's a kind of a leading question, because you know what one of the things I always talk about is, um, the uh, the success in my career that's come from my network and from my obsession with networking, and I've probably spent 50% of my working life still networking. You know, never with an immediate intent to close a deal, but always with the view to grow my network, you know.

Speaker 2: 52:18

Meet new people, meet great people, because you know great people lead to great experiences which may and I always a May in capital letters may lead to opportunities, may lead to business, but that's the side effect for me.

Speaker 2: 52:32

I like to meet great people and I've seen a bit in rugby because I guess any famous sports people, they've always got people around them who want to know them and there's a fine balance, I always find, because you can really take advantage of the fact that everybody wants to know you.

Speaker 2: 52:52

But then I normally find that most people don't, because they want to be arrogant, for want of a better word about the fame. It's like oh, I'm a football player, I earn a load of dough, I can't be arsed talking to these people and then when your career's finished, you learn very quickly that people actually don't want to talk to you anymore. And the time and maybe it doesn't matter so much in football if you've been earning mega, mega bucks. But in rugby I would imagine the fame and the money will dwindle pretty quickly and the time to take advantage of it is the time you probably don't want to take advantage of it. But I have seen some people do very well in building that network during the playing career to then parlay it into something else after the fact. So just, I guess, take that and run with it a bit.

Speaker 1: 53:36

Yeah, very much. So. Bit of rugby speed, that isn't it. Take it and run with it, Don't score that.

Speaker 2: 53:41

Don't drop the ball.

Speaker 1: 53:43

Oh perfect, yeah, wrong with it, don't drop the ball. Oh perfect, yeah. And exactly that. Yeah, they want to get into your, your network and all that kind of stuff. And and precisely that, there's times, as a player and I used to I was quite proactive with that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: 53:55

But you, you've got to get out there and meet people and there are so many players who will be having before you are personally having stuff like testimonial dinners or charity events. And, look, you're very lucky when you go and host these tables because you are, you're going to a room where you don't know anyone as well, so it can be quite an intimidating environment and you're hosting a table of 10 who you've never met before. But also, normally these are high net worth individuals, they're big corporations, all that kind of stuff. So you are, yeah, you are having an in with some people and it gives you that opportunity to to speak to them, to meet new people. And look, in all honesty, that's where, when I, when we do our charity dues, when we do the work I'm doing for the wine and the insurance, it's come through being out and about and meeting people and and actually the dues I didn't want to go is where I met the wine company I work for. So, again, it's just having that courage and you never know what's going to come from it.

Speaker 1: 54:45

And the big thing you said there is might happen, something might happen. It's not necessarily going to happen, but if you're not in a room initially, it's definitely not going to happen. So I think, yeah, just being a bit, you've got to be proactive, that's for sure. Because, like you said, when you're playing, or you're playing for England, every door would open for you. But when you stop playing and you stop playing club, those doors don't quite open as much and over time someone else is in that room. So you've got to get out there and you've got to be proactive. And also you've got to be interested in what you're going to. You've got to enjoy it. You've got to get that buzz out of it Because, like we said earlier, it's not in front of 80,000 people, but you still want to enjoy going to work. You still want to enjoy the people you're working with and the environment that's being created, the culture of it and all that kind of stuff is really important as well.

Speaker 2: 55:30

What lessons do you think you've learnt playing rugby that are applicable to business? I guess you know any parallels of sport and business.

Speaker 1: 55:40

Yeah, it's really interesting actually, I think, continuing to surround yourself with people who know more than yourself and kind of try to pick their brains and don't just learn from one industry Like a Seven Islands captain. I'd like to speak to people captains in particular who are in different sports, because there are a lot of parallels but there's also a lot of differences. So try and pick the brains of other leaders in their industry as well, because there's a couple of things which, if you just tweak something, might, might happen. Um, I do think in the corporate world things tend to be a little bit slower, whereas in sport everything's instant. If you make a mistake, you've got to rectify it there and then then, if you haven't, it's your mistake, mistake, mistake. Whereas I think in the corporate world, because there are so many ladders you've got to climb up and change, you've got to go through it can be a little bit slower. So trying to speed up that process is important.

Speaker 2: 56:39

Just on that.

Speaker 2: 56:40

Do you try and apply that to your own businesses?

Speaker 2: 56:43

For example, I've been doing a lot of interviews with people lately, for some reason, with senior positions, and some of the things that they've been telling me about why they want to leave their existing roles is because they don't feel like what they do is seen or makes a difference. They don't see. Or if they have an idea, it takes forever, if ever, to implement. And you know, one of the things I always try and sell them as a selling point is that while some of our businesses you know, I mean some of the businesses in our group are eight-figure businesses, you know they are, you know, not insubstantial and you know many others could run them in a corporate way.

Speaker 2: 57:21

But I always say, one of the benefits of coming to us is there is little to no hierarchy and if there's an idea that is good and is worth implementing, get on and get it implemented. Today, ok, there may be if it's to do with one of our investment businesses, there may be a regulatory concern that we might need to check something with a lawyer or check something with a regulatory body, but ultimately, if something's a good idea, you get it implemented. And if I mean, I guess in the businesses that you work in now some are your own, some are other people's I mean, do you try and bring that speed of execution to that?

Speaker 1: 57:56

Yeah, a little bit, and that's very much the same. We used to use in kind of the rugby world and probably one which I struggled with initially, and it was a saying from that boat that great kind of boat era of Redgrave and Cracknell and all that kind of stuff and it said if it makes a boat go faster, do it. It doesn't have to be your idea or my idea, whoever's idea it is, it doesn't matter. Is it going to make us go faster, then we do it. And that for me as a young captain, is something I struggle with. I thought it had to be my idea and I think some leaders not necessarily who I am, but I just think some leaders and when I was a young captain are it's got to be me, I'm the leader, I don't want to be giving your idea because you might get promoted above me, kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 58:39

And there is a little bit of that in various workplaces in all walks of life. Everyone's kind of looking out for themselves and I think when you really create a good culture that supports each other and wants people to do well, that's when you really flourish. So a lot of it is culture-driven and any environment where you have a good culture generally, success will probably happen in one form or another.

Speaker 2: 59:03

And how would you say you know one should create a good culture? Generally, success will probably happen in one form or another, and how would you say you know one should create a good culture? You know how do you think you've done that in, in, in the teams that you've captained. Or what would your advice be to a budding business owner who's struggling with growth and struggling with, you know, culture development?

Speaker 1: 59:18

yeah, I think. I think honesty, um, but I think there's one thing being honest, but you have to understand the people. Like if I we didn't know each other before today, but if I didn't know you at all and just said, look, that was completely terrible, you messed up, whatever you might react really poorly to that message. But if I had a quiet word with you and said you know what? Look, we need you to adjust this, because what you did the other day is really let this department down or whatever. And I think it's, it's almost, it's team management, it's people.

Speaker 1: 59:50

People management and stuff like that is so important these days because how do you get the person to improve? And, like I said, when I was young, it was all stick, stick, stick. But as you get older, as you evolve, you learn to deal with people a lot better and you learn personalities rather than just say you're an employer or a rugby player, whatever, I'm not going to treat you all the same. So that, for me, is a really valuable lesson. And also understanding young people, young people coming into the workplace. I'm very new to the work environment. It's very different, but I know in a sporting environment when I was last captain and last player and the young players were very different to the older players were when they were that.

Speaker 1: 1:00:27

But that's just time and that's life, isn't it? Now life and people are working in different environments. People are working for pain, people are working from like I said about the schooling system, on the floor, on sofas, on a kitchen table, whatever it be, um, and you can almost educate yourself in that. So I always think that companies should, if they can, obviously budgets and all encourage people to further and develop themselves, because them going away and doing a course, it's going to come back and benefit you. They're going to bring ideas because they're going to be in a room with people from I don't know 15 different businesses. You're going to pick each other's brains. So why not? I think? Don't be scared of the change.

Speaker 2: 1:01:07

And you talk carrot and stick and listen, I am all for the carrot, the stick does need to be shown now and again, but I am all for carrot over stick. But I think there's also a fine balance. You know where too much particularly becomes woke as well in in today's world as that? Um, you know, have you seen that spill into rugby? I mean, has rugby got some, some wokeness in it?

Speaker 1: 1:01:31

um, look, I'm sure it does, but I think we've. The thing is sport. Sport is obviously a little bit different to a business point of view because you can, like I said, still punish people with fitness or keep them on the training pitch longer and all that kind of you can physically tire them out, which I can't imagine in an office or the offices I've been. We're not out there doing shuttles in the car park at lunchtime, you know maybe maybe, maybe that's what it's missing.

Speaker 2: 1:01:58

Maybe that's what maybe.

Speaker 1: 1:02:00

Okay, I'm going in on monday and I'm going to tell the business I'm involved.

Speaker 1: 1:02:03

okay, we're having a bleep test on monday in the car park shuttles between all the lines, um. So, look, it is different, and I know it is very different because you're like that and you spend so much time together. Um, and, of course, being a physical sport as well, you do need to form those bonds, because if you don't trust the people you work with and I always, always say, look, you don't have to like each other, but you have to trust and respect each other, because when you go onto that pitch on a weekend, you all have to be in the same wavelength, whether you like the person or not. Because, look, you're in a rugby environment of 40, 50 players. You're not all going to be best mates, you're not all in the same direction and same in the workplace. You've got to respect the people in their roles, but that respect is not just given out.

Speaker 2: 1:02:48

You've got to earn it every day. So just talk a little bit about homosexuality in modern sport as well. I mean, again, my horrendous sporting knowledge will not be able to name names, but over the last few years there's been a couple of reasonably high profile come outs in rugby. I mean, is that something?

Speaker 2: 1:03:12

you had personal experience of in terms of playing with these guys, and how has it reacted to and taken in the team, because I guess there's what the media writes about but we all know to take that with a pinch of salt at the best of times.

Speaker 1: 1:03:30

Yeah, look, I always say and I'm probably a bit biased, I was in rugby and stuff like that and still am now we always say with rugby we're a game for all shapes and sizes and a game for all regardless of anything. And I think with that we've had, of course, nigel Owens, the first openly gay rugby referee, and he's been brilliant with some of his one-liners and he's been such a big advocate for people feeling comfortable and from his experience I don't think he's ever felt threatened on the rugby pitch through anything to do with that or through homophobia. And I think we've in the rugby pitch through anything to do with that or through homophobia. And I think we're in the rugby environment, like the football now, like other sports, we have kind of a pride weekend at Harlequin's. They have a pride game, so they will kind of have the flags out, they'll have all the rainbow colours or through fireworks and stuff like that to help promote it and to help people feel more comfortable.

Speaker 1: 1:04:23

Because I remember I've spoken a bit and I've been on pride marches with rugby teams and stuff in London and I've had people reach out to me and say look, I'm Welsh and I hate you for your rugby, but I really respect you and you've given me confidence to be who I am and that, for me, has touched me. And that was such a little thing. And rugby is old school, bravado sport, all that kind of stuff, and I think with rugby we are and we like to think we are trying to make people feel comfortable with who they are.

Speaker 2: 1:05:00

Well, listen, it's been a great chat, it's been an exciting event for, know, I guess an exciting and eventful, you know, past, past 20, 25 years for you. Uh, looking ahead from now, you know what? What do you want the next kind of 5, 10, 15 years to hold?

Speaker 1: 1:05:15

yeah, interesting, um, and I'm probably at that stage now where before everyone was saying kind of, so what, what next? And now everyone says so when are you going to be in five years? You know, I still don't know, but I don't know if you ever know.

Speaker 2: 1:05:30

It's almost funny, you know, when you ask that question of someone like yourself, it kind of almost is that sports people are 20 years behind everybody else, because you know you'd normally be asking that of someone who's 22, 23, 24, finished uni. But it's almost like you've lost 20 years of your life doing a parallel activity and now you're starting from zero again.

Speaker 1: 1:05:52

And that's what I say to people. I say, look, when you finish university, you bounce around for a couple of years did this job, didn't like that job, did that Whereas we're doing it 15, 20 years later with mortgages, with kids, all that kind of stuff, and you're trying to find, look, I don't know. From a foundation point of view, I would like us to raise a million pounds in 10 years for various causes. That's my goal with that, which hopefully we'll get to From a personal business perspective, still working it out From a family point of view. Um, evan always says it goes very quickly, so don't rush it away and be there so quick and be there.

Speaker 1: 1:06:32

So and look, unfortunately my father passed and I want to. I want to be there as much as possible. Um, so, yeah, I'm trying to do that. Everyone says, is he going to play rugby? Uh, I'm not to do that. Everyone says, is he going to play rugby? I'm not sure. I want him to be sporty because I want to play sport with him, and then we'll see. But in terms of a work point of view, yeah, I speak to players actually a little bit further along than me, five, ten years ahead of me, and they say it probably takes them about seven years. They reckon to be happy and kind of fulfilled with where they are in terms of, yes, they've bounced around a bit and now they've got to list my career now. So hopefully we'll be touch base in five, ten years, I'll know.

Speaker 2: 1:07:15

Well, I have no fear that it'll be something exciting and it'll be something that you're very successful at, and I can't let you leave without giving us a quick view on, or your quick view on, england rugby at the moment. I think, contextually, they lost to France two or three weeks ago, didn't they? I mean, how are they doing? What can they do to do better? What have you got to look forward to?

Speaker 1: 1:07:34

Yeah, really interesting because they came third in the World Cup recently and everyone said they weren't playing a brilliant brand of rugby. They were a little bit slow getting into the previous Six Nations 2024 Six Nations, but the last two games were epic. They beat Ireland at Twickenham and I haven't seen Twickenham in that atmosphere in a long, long time. They scored amazing tries, they were electric, they were abrasive in defence and then went over to France, which people didn't really give them much hope, and they lost last kick of the game by a point and they played some brilliant rugby over there. So in honesty, I think England rugby is in a really good place. They go to Japan this summer and New Zealand, so that's going to be a tough tour going down there. I don't think England have won a series down there, but it's a good challenge for them. Young group hungry, and when you're young you have no fear. You have no fear and sometimes that's a bad thing, but they have no fear. So they're going to go there and really enjoy that.

Speaker 1: 1:08:31

The premiership is growing. It's fantastic. The games are brilliant. We're getting towards the knockout end of the season so it's kind of rittling down, but every game is sold out. The. The sun's coming out, so the ball's being thrown around a little bit more and I actually think now in this country, rugby is fine and it's taken a little bit of time finally recovering post-covid covid like all sports really knocked it, all businesses really knocked it, but I feel this season in particular has taken a massive step forward to getting back to where it was and stuff like the Netflix documentary so there's a Netflix show on rugby, which again was a massive help for the game. I'm sure you know everything that Drive to Survive did for that, and the tennis is down a full swing and all that kind of stuff. It's brilliant just to get more people looking at the game. And, yes, it might not all be correct or whatever, but it doesn't matter, does it? It's still TV and it's getting more people involved. So, look, I think rugby is, yeah, getting back on track awesome listen, chris.

Speaker 2: 1:09:34

It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much pleasure thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:09:36

Thanks, mate cheers man, thanks for listening to Stripping Off with Matt Haycox. I hope you've enjoyed listening to this week's episode, but please remember to subscribe or to follow and please, please, leave a review. If you can leave a review, that's how we move up the algorithm, that's how we get to the top of the charts and that's how I can keep bringing you bigger and better guests that you'll love each week. Have you got any suggestions for guests? Have you got any burning questions you want to ask?