Modern Leadership In The Age Of AI: Recruiting, Bias, And The Human Element

Today, I'm interviewing the interviewer! I sit down with Desiree Goldey to unpack how leadership and workplace culture directly shape people’s lives. We explore why leadership can make or break a job experience, how recruiting carries real moral weight, and why the human element in hiring still matters—especially as artificial intelligence continues to reshape the workforce. Ms. Goldey shares insights from years in recruiting, marketing, and organizational development across multiple industries.

We dive into the realities of recruiting pressure, emotional labor, and the responsibility of making decisions that affect careers and families. Ms. Goldey explains why most recruiters never planned to enter the field, how incentives and KPIs influence hiring behavior, and why empathy, communication, and professionalism remain critical skills that AI cannot replicate. We also discuss interview dynamics, workplace bias, sexism in leadership spaces, and how subtle behaviors reveal far more than a résumé ever could.

This episode also examines the future of work, leadership development, and what it truly means to “do better” as a leader. Ms. Goldey breaks down why many leaders are promoted without training, how intentional leadership coaching can transform teams, and why non-linear career paths are not failures but strategic evolutions.

https://www.zrgpartners.com/our-team/desiree-goldey/

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*Couple O' Nukes LLC and Mr. Whiskey are not licensed medical entities, nor do they take responsibility for any advice or information put forth by guests. Take all advice at your own risk.

Transcript

  Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode, a couple of nooks. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey. And we love talking on the show about leadership, about the workplace. It because it's so important. We used to have a saying in the military that your chain of command can make or break your experience.

You know, you could be stationed in the most beautiful base in the world and have the worst leadership and you're getting out, or you could be in the worst place in the world. Newport News, Virginia. Uh, shout out and you could have the best leadership in the world and stay in and reenlist. You know, it really does make or break a job.

And that is the same in the civilian world. We've all had leaders that we liked, employers that we liked, and we've all had some that we, I. I did not like, you know, to put to some degree, uh, same with our coworkers. So it's important for us to be mindful because the world of leadership is ever evolving and changing as we move forward as a society, as individual businesses and companies change.

And so we are here today with a woman who specializes in leadership and workplace development. Ms. Desiree, Goldie. She is a part-time fashionista, according to her Instagram. You can check that out. And then she also does, like I said, a lot of leadership work and development, and we're gonna talk today about how she got into that and what we can implement.

So it is Desiree.  Wow. That was the best introduction I've had in a while. That was great. I love it. I love it so much. I am Desiree. Goldie. My real title is Director of Marketing and Culture Over at ZRG Partners, where we're a global talent advisory firm. I also own a consulting firm called Do Better Consulting, where we work with individuals to try to up their leadership game, and so that's a.

It's a big topic for me and, um, exciting topic as AI comes into play and the world of work starts to change. And I think that what we saw as leaders in 1950 is not what we're seeing as leaders today. And so I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.  For sure. And when I was researching your files, I can't remember where it was, but you said something that you're a firm believer that recruiting is the most difficult job after physical labor.

Is that correct? That is very correct. I believe that, first of all, most of us fell into recruiting. Uh, so it wasn't our life dream. We weren't little kids saying we wanted to be in talent.  No one says, I wanna be a recruiter when I grow up. Um, well, if they do, I wanna meet them. But, uh, we all kind of fall into it usually because we have a drive for people and process and, and.

Just in, you know, doing better for people's lives. And so that's how we usually end up here. And, uh, I do consider it one of the hardest things to do because there's so many multiple factors that come into play and you're responsible for people's lives. Um, and that, you know, we're not doctors, but you know, we are, we are getting right, we are changing people's lives every day.

So it's a, it's a great job to have.  So in the military, you're either a good recruiter or a good person. You can't be both. So how would you say, how would you say in a civilian world, how, how you balance, you know, uh, honesty and, and feeling that that build it, so to speak? Yeah, I think it's very difficult for those that own their own kind of talent firms.

I think it becomes easier to do this right. Um, because you can. You know, focus on your values and your morals and like you only take clients you wanna work with and, and things like that. But if you're a corporate recruiter or an agency, agency recruiter, you're held to KPIs and data and things you need to fill, roles you need to fill.

And I think it becomes a little bit of a quandary about, you know, is this the right thing to do sometimes or am I just putting person in a seat because the hiring manager wants it or. Whatever. I still think most recruiters are genuinely good people, but you have to remember there's, you know, seven layers of people above them that are making, you know, wildly great decisions or bad decisions for their organizations and they kind of have to follow that.

They don't get to make all the determination  for sure. And there are definitely people who get, um, a little cash bonus dangled in front of them and some other incentives, whether that's promotion or what it may be. Now I do wanna pivot, you know, talking about recruiting and personal biases, and then you mentioned ai.

Do you believe that all recruiters will be replaced by ai? Is that kind of the direction we're seeing the industry shift, or do you think that AI can recruit based off of, you know, that the qualifications, all the hard skills. But it will never have that people person skill. Yeah. I think the world of AI is about evolving faster than we know, right?

Even then we think it is. Um, and I never believed that recruiters will be completely replaced. I do not believe that there has to be some human element to the world of recruiting, especially in that soft skills place. But. It is evolving to the point where it can take over a lot of the mundane tasks that live in recruiting and that for recruiters should be a wake up call to become more of a strategic person and less of just an order taker.

I always talk about the order taking. We're just like filling a role and moving on to the next one. I think it should be more of a strategic. Point of view that you bring to the table and really understanding the business. And sometimes a lot of recruiters don't understand the business. They just understand filling the role.

I do think it reduces the force in recruiting at it. Maybe not this year, uh, but maybe next year. I think that some people do, uh, they start to downsize some of the recruiting. Uh, talent teams because they just don't need that many people when AI is doing so much of the administrative piece of the job. 

Right. It's streamlining the process. So now instead of you getting a thousand, you know, resumes or applications, now you're getting five that have, because of that thousand AI has filtered down, these are the five ideal candidates. And now you go and interview those people or talk to them. So it can definitely streamline the process, but I think for the interview itself, hopefully we don't see that get replaced.

You know, it's interesting, I've done a lot of different interviews for different companies over the years and I've.  I've gotten this, you know, this sense of who's a good person and who's a bad person. You know, you, I pay attention to who actually follows up. You know, who you know makes you chase after them, and who chases after you, you know, how do they present themselves?

Interview. You know, who offers you water or, or something to eat? Who, you know, I've had some terrible interviews. I've had some just, I've had ones that were less than five minutes. It's just Okay. You want the job? Uh, yeah. It looks like you're a good fit. That's it. And I was like, no, I'm not doing this.

Because I said the other company did an hour long interview and it was thorough. You know, like, so. Right, right. The difference. But one of the best questions I was asked, only one out of all, out of all the interviews I've done, only one person has asked me this. They, they said, Mr. Whiskey, what can you tell me about you that's not on this resume?

And see that right there was that crucial part of,  you know, your resume could be copy, paste of everyone else that they're interviewing. So now. Uh, tell me more about you. And I don't know if the AI will ever be able to do that, because even if it was programed to ask that question, how is it, it is gonna analyze the key words, say, all right, Mr.

Whiskey's response contained, um, you know, these values of leadership or community and, you know, Ms. Desiree's contained, um, you know, these hobbies or free time. Now, how does the AI weigh those? Right. You know, the way that a person does. Right. So I think that's a very interesting, this goes into the question of bias of things, right?

Yeah. And AI scares me because of the bias of a, a robot, right? First of all, it's programs and. By human. So if I am program, I naturally bring my bias to the table to program that thing, to interpret something. And so the, that's where it gets a little tricky for me and a little scary for me with AI is because I think you could miss out on so much.

If you, if you're bringing bias into the situation for ai and it's, it's a lit, it's so tricky to me, and I don't think we're anywhere close to figuring it out. I know there's some great people out there doing work in this, such as Torin Ellis, who's doing some great work and figuring this all out. It's not me, but I do think that it can be a scary proposition, uh, to, to weigh my values through a robot.

Right. Right. It just seems like, it seems like it doesn't really make sense. Plus, I also think it naturally a human can. Read a body language in an interview, right. Or get pick up on cues that you have or see if you're nervous or, and, and use that and weigh that with our critical minds. Mm-hmm. Where AI and a robot's not gonna be able to do that through you talking to it.

Um, and so I think there's these just naturally body language cues and soft skills that I think it may never really be the perfect model to do recruiting and talent. Right. And so I,  recruiters don't go away.  Lemme just say that. For sure. For sure. You know, it's interesting 'cause like when I was asked that question I said, well, you know, uh, in my free time and, and, and with my company, I like to do, you know, work in suicide prevention, awareness and uh, addiction, recovery for alcohol, pornography, drugs, whatever it may be.

I like to help individuals with self-improvement and.  How is an AI gonna weigh that? Is it gonna say, Hey, well Mr. Wish, that sounds like some really important stuff. I mean, does it, does an AI care about suicide prevention? What? What does it matter to it if someone takes your life or not? You know? So that, that kind of stuff too.

And I like, like you said, the nervousness or the confidence, you know? Right. That's definitely something, I mean, I've had tons of people come to interviews with me and just, they have the perfect resume. Right. But they just don't do interviewing well, but I've been doing this so long, I can say to myself, okay. 

Could, you know, gather your thoughts together about this person. They're the perfect resume. They were just a little nervous. And I try to coach them through that nervousness for the next interview and also recognize that that is how people sometimes show up. Or maybe they're having a bad day, maybe they woke up with a headache.

You know, all the things in ai. Yeah. Not going to be able to bring to the table. Right. Um, and so I think this, you know. I, I do think in not just talent all over ai, there's so many conversations happening about how this affects the world of work and talent is specifically high on that list. How does it affect hiring, um, in the world of work?

And I think it's gonna be interesting to see how it falls out in the next couple years.  Yeah, well, like you said, you know, I've got a buddy, he's got a great resume, but he's like, Mr. Whiskey, I just can't do the interview part. I just suck at talking, you know. He goes, I was telling him about my experience.

He goes, see if they had asked me that question like, what's not on your resume? He's like, I would've just sat there like a jerk. He goes, I don't know what I would've said. Um, and uh, a friend, she called me the other day with a story that blew my mind. They were interviewing people for her. The company she works at and the one candidate was cursing throughout his interview.

And, uh, for me, that, for me, that's unprofessional. You know, I know every place of work is different and everyone's different and it's 2025, but for me, I would never, I don't curse in general, but certainly not during an interview. You know? Absolutely not. Well, I've had all things happen to me over my career in recruiting.

I've seen people show up. I've seen hiring managers show up bad. I've seen like, there's just so many crazy stories. Any strange outfits. Have you had any of those experiences? Oh my gosh, they're the worst. Some people show up and or they look like they rolled out of bed. In the morning, and I'm like, what happened?

Did you not know you were meeting with me? Like I just, you know, I, I still think there's a, I don't care if it's a hoodie or whatever, that doesn't bother me. But when you show up and you look unkempt to me or like you just rolled out of bed or have a really bad hangover, I am little suspect on whether you really want the job.

So, yeah, I've seen some crazy things over time. I had a guy drink in an interview. Yeah. He was like drinking, uh. What was he? He told me it was like some kind of wine and I was like, what is happening right now? Just to settle the nerves, you know? Yeah.  That's what it was. He didn't have to tell me about it though. 

It was so bizarre. Yeah. I mean, have you had anything that someone said that was just like, you couldn't believe it, like it was like. Personally offensive to you? Or it just showed like a lack of consideration or awareness or anything like that? I've had, you know, I've had some very like borderline racist comments made to me, um, which are, which are a struggle for me of course.

And right. Um, and then I've had to some wackadoo comments, like, I only wanna work 20 hours, but I want a 40 hour work. Job week job, an hour week job. And I'm like, wait a minute, did you just tell me you're not gonna work hard? You know, like I've had those kind of comments happen to me. And I've also had, you know, I think what people don't think are weird questions, um, listen, I don't have a problem with you asking about benefits and.

And things like that. But when we get, we're in a first interview and they're asking me what do, how do I get more vacation than when is allotted to me? How, you know, like things that aren't really bad questions, but they alert me to things that are going on maybe in your personal life or your work ethic, that start to worry me, right?

And so I, I ask people to craft their questions before they go into an interview. Really carefully, right? I want you to interview the company just as much as they should be interviewing you, but I want you to be careful about how you ask those questions. Mm-hmm. Um, and be like that considerate and professional at all times, right?

And you never, even if they stray from professionalism, you shouldn't.  Um, and that's a big deal. It reminds me of this one tale I heard while I in the military. You know, when you get to your ship or your commander's, different positions and, uh, some of them are positions that you can work for and have that, you know, doesn't come with your rank and and rate already.

And I remember this one guy, he got to the command and. They encourage you to ask questions. You know, find the person who's already doing the job and say, Hey, you know, how did you work your way up to this, you know, special PO position. Is there anything I can do, you know, x, y, z are, are there programs I can do?

How do I do? I have to put in extra hours. I remember this one guy showed up. They, they told me the story. He showed up and he said. They said, oh, are you a new guy? He goes, yeah, I'm the new guy. I'm actually the guy here to take your job. And it is like, that's, he was like, don't, don't ever show, especially in the military, you don't, someone who  can do that position in the military doesn't seem to good. 

Yeah. He goes, actually, I'm, I'm the new and better you. I, yeah. You can't be saying stuff like that. I mean, his confidence, I, I'll give you that, but it's, uh, yeah, it's, uh, again, it's like, yeah, let's not show our narciss. People don't wanna help you from day one. They don't wanna help you if you say, Hey. I really wanna also, you know, have that position.

I'm working towards that. Sure. You know, it's like you said, the way you word things and go about things. Yes. You have to be so mindful of how other people are gonna interpret them. I mean, it's the same with any relationship and communication. Absolutely. You have to understand that the way you present may not be the way it's coming off, you know, internally versus externally.

And then, uh, absolutely. I'd love to ask, I know it's, um. We've made a lot of progression in terms of women in the workplace. Yeah. But have you experienced sexism during the interviews, of course, or in recruiting process or at, at any time? Oh, absolutely. I mean, my favorite is, you know, I have done a lot of the executive level roles in the PLA in the past.

Uh, you know.  I've been called Girl during my interviews. I've been, you know, I've done, you know, I've had interviewed CEOs who were like, well, you know, I just don't, you know, I don't believe in women in leadership.  Uh, you know, women should be at home. I mean, like, just stop. People will say anything. And you know what's funny?

They may not say it on their next interview, but they will say it to a recruiter because they also undervalue the job of the recruiter. Um, and if you undervalue my job, which is to get you to the next step, to me, that's also a huge red flag. But. Women, and I don't think men always think about the things that they say and how they're perceived, um, to a woman in the workplace.

I mean, I'm in the workplace. You shouldn't say things like that to me. Yeah. Even if you believe them, you should keep them to yourself. Right. And, and I think we had, I felt like we were doing better at this, um, and we're getting better at this, but it is definitely still prevalent in.  The C-suite level of people, um, it's still a thing.

It's still, you know, keep the, the women out of the boardroom type of idea. And it's, it's just actually sad to see. But um, it's still very much there. And I think this changes too as we change generations. You know, I'm Gen X. And so, you know, I think the generations after me are getting better at this type of thing.

Um, you know, for us, the boomers and Gen Xers still are holding onto a lot of those old traditional kind of values still. And as we move through the generations, uh, we're, we're getting better at addressing some of these things upfront, which is great. Which is great. I'm excited for my children, right? They, they don't have to go through, um, some of the stuff that I had to go through, so that's exciting. 

Right. And you know what I, I do want to go back. We kind of skipped one part, which was you talked about no one grows up saying, I want to be a recruiter. So how did you end up being a recruiter in the first place? Oh my gosh. Long story. So I, um,  so I was in hospitality actually for a very long time. I managed bars and hotels and then went to foods, um, consumer foods.

Um, and I. Was tired of it, to be honest with you. It was a lot of late nights, a lot of factory work, a lot of just a lot of work in working to the wee hours of the night. And you know, after years of working a hundred hour work weeks, I was like, this is enough. Right? Um, and I was getting older and needed to pivot out of my career.

And I had worked with so many people over time in my time in hospitality, hired hundreds of people over time, that it seemed like a natural step for me to work with people in some fashion. And HR is not really my thing. I don't, I, the compliance and the benefits and all that stuff didn't appeal to me, but what did appeal to me is working with people to get them a job.

And so I.  Ventured out and got my first job at a agency, a recruiting agency, and they gave me a chance and I excelled at it. And so, and I actually loved the work so much that I've stayed in it now, but it was, um, it was definitely not my dream job. Um, but it definitely has become, um, a great. Career in people and I, and I love it.

So yeah, totally fell into it. There's actually a great meme of a guy like rolling down the driveway and people, recruiters always put it, put it up, and that's kind of how you fall into recruiting. It's definitely not, you know, a, you know, a thing you're, you're saying on to your mom at four years old, what do you wanna be when you grow up?

You're not saying you wanna be a recruiter.  Right. And you know what, it is not all rainbow and sunshine because we mentioned earlier that you have people's careers in your hand. Yes. And so what I want to ask, which most people don't focus on is how do you, Ms. Desiree deal with the, the pressure and the guilt almost of having to turn people down?

Yeah. You've got three or five great candidates. They're all perfect for their job, and they all need this. This is their like life changing moment. Yeah. And you have to call them and say, I'm sorry. We selected someone else. I mean, how have you dealt with that kind of guilt in those conversations?

Sometimes they're bursting into tears. I mean, how do you Yeah, I've had a lot of crying in my career. Um, I will say that, and people, especially in this economy in the last three years,  it's devastating. They've been on the market for a year, sometimes two. Um, and they just, they're at their last dollars in their, in their account, and they're cry, you know?

And. Or they're super angry, um, at the decision. So you have to deal with all of it, all the emotion you have to deal with, and I think it does carry a huge weight for recruiters.  Um, because if, if I had my way, everybody would have a job and have a living wage and have all these, right, of course. Right? Like, I don't want anybody to lose a job.

Um, but I think there is management in the balance of things too. I think that finding the perfect person for that role, who's extremely happy, so you have that conversation happen and then you do have those decline, but that super happy one is, is so good that you can kind of ride that wave for a little bit.

But every once in a while you do get a little depressed about the fact that you. Have to decline so many people. I mean, if you're holding 20 to 30 job openings, just think about how many people you're declining in a week to two weeks.  Right? Ton of people. And it can feel like a, a lot of weight. Um, I do a lot of self meditation, de-stress things to make sure that my life has balance.

Um, but this can feel.  Really overwhelming, um, at times. And I think if you don't practice self-care as a recruiter, you will struggle with it. Um, unless you just, um, are, have no emotion  for other people and no empathy for other people, I think that you,  you definitely feel the weight of it.  Yeah, for sure.

And I think that's something we don't really think about. But outside of that, you know, you love recruiting and it sounds like it's taught you a lot about people, about how people interact and, you know, taught you a lot of skills that you can implement into your life socially as, as a parent, as a partner, as a part of the community.

You learn how to really talk with people, how to really read people. And I think that's a really interesting skill. I feel like it's one that I've learned from podcasting, you know, same kind of thing. Yeah, I'm sure. Um, but you know, every now and then there may be a time where you know someone I. Puts on a facade and, and, and gets one pass.

You, I mean, it's, it's inevitable if you're, like you said, interviewing hundreds of people, you got several job openings and, uh, I, I, I get that and it's, um, but it sounds like such a, a great line of work, but it's, it's not all you do, you know, you also talked about do better counseling and then, um, other stuff that you're doing nowadays.

So what kind of is the direction that you're trying to move your life in?  Yeah, so my career's been an interesting one, right? It's been very non-linear and I, you know, and sometimes I even speak, um, do some speaking engagements about non-linear paths and how they can still get to you where you wanna be.

Mine's been all over the place and I still feel like I'm in the right place right now. Um, you know, I am back in marketing where I ended my hospitality career as a. Director of sales and marketing and now I'm back in it again and it's still for a talent company. But I, you know, this is, I think, where I'm going to end my career in really bringing to life the messaging, uh, and storytelling.

'cause I enjoy storytelling, um, of people and products and services.  To the market. The do Better consulting piece of that, um, is because I love working with individuals, get them the, the next step in their life, in their career, in the workplace, because I do believe that leaders, um,  I. Most leaders are just kind of just, like I say, fall into recruiting.

They also kind of fall into leadership. Yes, they were probably really excellent at their job. Um, but they got put into a leadership role without any training. And so I believe that, you know, do better started because I started to talk to leaders and coach leaders, um, on how to be better at.  Creating, um, cohesive teams.

Um, and when I, as I was doing that work, I really found that leaders really didn't even know where to start. Um, and so that piece of my life is something that I picked my clients very, I. Carefully, it's an augmented, the work that I do in my full-time job and it's 'cause I just enjoy the results of what happens to teams and how performance changes and all of those things.

Um, and you know, that's exciting for me. So, you know, I don't ever think I'll lose either one of these things. Right. I think that the end of my career, Mr. Whiskey, I turned 50.  Last year and I really had to do some self-reflection about where my career was going. And I think right, I've gotten into a really good place and I would love to see, uh, until I retire.

Which hopefully is at 60 not, but hopefully it's at 60. Um, you know, 60, 65. I feel like I've lived a really great life with great experiences, but I wanna end my career here and then go on to some personal venture at the end. So. It's exciting to be me right now. I feel like I'm in a really good place. It's awesome.

For sure. And we're gonna have all your links and description below for people to contact you, whether that's about speaking, coaching, or podcast guesting, whatever it may be. But we we're all curious. I have to know. Ms. Desiree, do you have children, is the first question I do. I have two grown boys. They are old.

They're the second question. They probably older than you, Mr. Whiskey. The second question is, do they want to go into recruiting? Absolutely not.  I just,  I had, I had to know, you said no one grows up wanting to be a recruiter and I, if you were wishing your ears, like every time, you know, they weren't looking, you were like, be a recruiter.

It's, it's fine. No, no, no, no. Actually, you know what? It's funny, my, I had someone ask me if I ever thought about guiding my. Kids to this as a, uh, career path and you know, I honestly told.  My sons that I wouldn't actually love to see them in this role. First of all, my sons are very different. One is in the military, um, and the other one is super creative.

And I don't think either of them, their path is in that direction. But I also would, I want stability for them. And the recruiting and talent market is very volatile. And so, um, you know, you gotta, it is not for the faint of heart. Um, and of course as a mother, I want better for them. There's still a chance with the military son being, I know,  but it's a different type of recruiting.

I, no, he's an int inte. Don't even say it. He's an intelligence. So I'm like hoping he goes some other path, but let's hope for the best there. He could end up being the, the guy who programs the AI that replace your recruiters. Oh my God. No. He could be that guy.  He could be that guy. So, yeah. But yeah, no, I, you know, I, they definitely didn't say that when they, uh, were young either.

They didn't say, we wanna do what mommy does. That's. None of  that has ever happened.  Yeah. Well, you know what? It's, uh, I, I respect you as a parent, you know, not pushing onto your, your children. I, uh, I am a child who lived what my parents wanted, not what I wanted. So, uh, I turned out all right. You know, afterward, I kind of.

Because I pivoted and was like, actually, forget y'all. I'm doing what I want. But, um, I know there's a lot of people who don't have that, um, you know, beautiful opportunity to do so. So I, I appreciate you as a parent. Not,  you know, one, one of the, the things we had said when I was creating the show was, um, you know.

Living out our parents' dreams and, and needing to, how do we rebrand and pivot our life from there? 'cause it's already just taken up all that time. But yeah, no, I also believe everything happens for a reason. Everything lines up pretty, pretty well, so, yeah. But yeah, I including, you know, you getting sent my way to guest on, on the show.

I've loved our conversation. Thank you. I love your energy, your enthusiasm. And I, I can already tell that,  you know, I, I might, I might have to, you know. Change my name and, and look and, uh, try to.  Have you recruit me and then see, all right now, how's Ms. Desiree from the podcast guest in to when she's recruiting to reality, super serious.

She's like, you know, iron fist or, you know, is it the same you? No, I'm exactly the same way, which I, why I think I've been successful. So, um, you know, there's a lot of laughing and joking in my interviews, so, um, yeah, I, I love that to keep it. I'm the first step, so I like to keep it kind of casual, so I love it.

But this has been great.  Yes, ma'am. So thank you for your time and for what you do. Uh, like you said, and like we said, you've set up a lot of great careers for people and you're continuing to not only do that on the one-to-one level as a recruiter. But by helping leadership and, you know, businesses focus on workplaces that are inclusive, progressive, and, you know, creating an environment where more people can thrive, you know, you're helping contribute to that.

So I thank you for that. Thank you. I appreciate it. I.