The Love You’re Missing Might Be Your Own! Betrayal Trauma And Intimacy Recovery

Today, I sit down with Gary Katz, a licensed clinical social worker and founder of the Center for Intimacy Recovery, to talk about the overlooked relationship that affects every other one: the relationship with yourself. Mr. Katz brings years of experience working with individuals and couples dealing with intimacy disorders, pornography addiction, betrayal trauma, and the deep psychological wounds that stem from a lack of self-worth. We explore how social media, cultural pressure, and unhealed trauma have made emotional and sexual connection even more difficult, and for some, impossible.

We break down the impact of growing up in homes where emotional support was missing and how that shapes our adult relationships, as well as how what we witness in our parents' relationship affects what we seek and normalize. Mr. Katz explains how many people, especially men, fall into a cycle of chasing validation — whether through work, sex, or status — only to find those “solutions” becoming their biggest problems. He also shares how betrayal trauma mirrors symptoms seen in combat veterans, with lasting effects on trust, self-esteem, and the ability to regulate emotions.

Throughout the episode, we unpack the danger of mistaking intimacy for validation and the importance of recognizing patterns, not red flags, in our dating lives. We talk about the societal stigma around being single, the fear of loneliness, and the desperate decisions people make to avoid feeling unwanted.

https://www.intimacyrecovery.com/

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*Couple O' Nukes LLC and Mr. Whiskey are not licensed medical entities, nor do they take responsibility for any advice or information put forth by guests. Take all advice at your own risk.

Transcript

 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey. And a few times before on the show we've touched the topics of sexual intimacy, the destruction of that through social media. I. And the way that pornographic content is accessible, the way it has changed over time, the way that relationships have changed through D, a lot of divorces, a lot of broken homes, a lot of marriages that have forcibly stayed together for finances or the children, and how that affects intimacy and relationships as well as.

Those children when they get into relationships. And then today, we're also gonna get into, most importantly, how does our self love and intimacy affect our relationship and ability to be intimate with others? And here to discuss all that with us is Mr. Gary Katz. Would you please go ahead and introduce yourself for us?

Sure. Thanks for having me here. I really appreciate it. Uh, yeah. My name is Gary Katz. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, uh, and the owner of a practice called the Center for Intimacy Recovery, which is based out of New York, but we're in seven states ranging from California, Florida, Texas. It's, um, around, around the country.

Um, and the focus of the practice is along the lines of what you talked about in some ways, which is helping people to. Have a more intimate relationship with themself. Uh, and by that I mean to know all the parts of ourselves and understand 'em instead of just, um, looking at the parts we like to see or we like to show other people, like maybe on an interview or on a podcast recording or on a date.

Um, and. Ignoring the parts that feel kind of ugly, like pettiness or things that we might feel shame or might cringe over. Because if I can't look at them myself, I'm never gonna show them to you. And so I have to first be able to have intimacy with myself before I can really have it with someone else.

And then we also spend time look, uh, looking at the ways that people develop strategies that help them to maybe be protective and avoid intimacy with other people. Yeah, for sure. And definitely want to focus in later on the self-love, not just for the intimate and sexual aspect, but in relationships in general.

I know I've been in some relationships where. My partner had trouble loving themselves, so they said they needed me to love them, not just for my love, but for their love as well. Correct. Trying to make up for that can be very difficult because at the end of the day, um, if they don't love themselves, doesn't matter how many compliments you give them.

Doesn't matter how much you try to reassure them, there's gonna be that hole. So we will talk about that. But I wanna take a step back and look at what got you into the field of work that you're in now and what your relationship with. Intimacy, self love and everything has been as far as influential to your work.

Yeah, I think, um, you know, I think like many people who go into the field that I'm in of mental health, um, our own personal work leads us to our professional work, right? Um, and so for me it's always been about trying to find intimacy and connection in my life, feeling disconnected from myself. From others, from God.

Um, and finding, trying to find ways desperately at times, um, and messily in a very messy way to try to find and feel better. Um, feeling alone, lonely, feeling less than feeling, even feeling, you know, feeling broken. Feeling that I remember one time doing a. Exercise called a psychodrama, which is a type of therapy where you have other people participate if anyone's listening, who doesn't know what it is.

And, um, in a, some kind of sculpted directed thing by a therapist. And during that, realizing that I really believed in deep down that in God's eyes, like I was one of the top five worst people in the history of the world. It was like Hitler Pole pot, Stalin. Gary Kat. Mm-hmm. And the first three guys were all murderers, mass murderers.

I've never murdered anybody, just for the record. Right, right. You know? Um, but yet, even as silly as that sounds, that was like this deep seated belief that I carried with me, and that then, because I believed that about myself, it then shaped how I acted. So, like earlier you mentioned you wanna get to the topic of like, when somebody feels like, I don't love myself enough, love me so I can feel better.

That's what I did too. It's like, oh, if this person can love me, then that tells me I'm okay. And you know, it's like if I can't fill up my own tank, someone else can't fill it up for me, as you know. So, um, but that's really what shaped me. So seeking it out, seeking it out through. Relationships, trying to find, be loved in that way.

Seeking out through substances, seeking out through religion, like all of them, seeking out through work and accomplishment and getting praised for like, they're all different ways of just wanting to feel better, um, as opposed to like something else, you know, an actual purpose for themself. Um, and so that led me first to.

Being involved in the world of education where I felt like I wanted to help kids feel better than I felt as a kid, help them to grow into adults and have a life where they felt good about themselves and connected to themselves. And I did that for about 20 years. Um, and combination of things ranging from.

After about 20 years, I couldn't teach middle school anymore. They're wonderful kids and stuff, but it was just getting to me and also realizing too, like. Because when I would teach, I would have to, my job was to teach the material of whatever topic I was teaching and cover the curriculum. So I was, that was really what I was there for.

And while the way I taught it and the way I cared for the kids would be helpful to them, I couldn't, I didn't really have the tools to address a lot of the things that they were coming in with. So I would see a student in my classroom who, whose face looked like I felt often when I was in school, they looked sad.

They looked. I could tell they were smart, but they couldn't really focus on learning 'cause they had so much going on inside emotionally. Yeah. And I, and other than caring for them, which should not be minimized, you know, I, or getting them resources, I didn't feel I had the ability to really help them. And so those two reasons, you know, middle school burnout and also, um.

Feeling like I wasn't really able to do the ex, the ideal, the direct work that I wanted to are some of the things that led me to doing a, a second career, which was going into getting, going back to school, getting a degree in social work, um, around in my early forties. And I actually thought I would go back and work with kids when I became a therapist.

And being a therapist for kids is very different than being a teacher for kids because mm-hmm. A lot of times kids become the identified problem in the family, like everyone else is like, oh, this kid's acting out. And they be, they, the finger gets pointed at them, um, when they're just part of a system. I.

Hmm. And so, uh, they're reacting to things around them many times and it's, and so if the family unit or the parents are not also willing to look at as it a systematic thing, then the kid, the fingers just get pointed at the kid, which then makes them even feel worse about themselves because, oh, I'm the problem.

They take that on sometimes. Um, and it was hard. I, I found it much harder as a therapist to work with the kids than, so I ended up working more with adults. And kind of led to the practice that I have now, which is really about helping adults have a more authentic connection with themselves and then with others.

Yeah, I think it's, uh, we've talked a little bit on the show about that when it comes to teaching and parenting. A lot of people are reactionary in the sense that they say, oh, my child's acting up. They're, they're, you know, ill behaved, uh, because they don't want to take accountability for their own actions at any point.

But also, more importantly, we talked about how it's so important to say. You know, to question why, you know, I talked about how, uh, that should be your first approach. The, a lot of people would like to discipline first, ask questions later instead of the ask questions first, discipline later. Mm. And my thing is, you know.

There's a reason behind most things and, and sometimes, you know what, A kid just acts up. That's true. But a lot of times if their behavior changes, especially when they've been a long-term good student or child at home, suddenly their, their behavior changes. It's, it should be an indication I. To you as a parent or a teacher say, Hey, what's going on?

Yeah, you know, there's obviously a reason for this, whether that's family trouble, whether that's academic troubles, but I think also I've discussed about if you do the discipline first questions later, a lot of children, are they gonna bottle up further? 'cause they, now they've got resentment towards you because you took away their Xbox, or you grounded them or whatever your disciplinary action was.

Same with teachers, if you, you know, counseled them, don't forget, I. I remember being a kid and everything comes off as a lecture, uh, even if it's, uh, kind, you know, counseling. So I think when you try to discipline or correct first, you end up making it even more difficult to find out why, which then I.

Perpetuates that cycle of, okay, they're not explaining why. So obviously they're just acting up. Yeah. And then next time it's gonna get worse and worse. So we talked a lot about how it's so important, and if you taught middle schoolers for decades, you probably understand that. And as, as a therapist as well, that, uh, creating their right environment for children is especially important, uh, when it comes to communication and comfort and safety and all of that.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when I was in high school, I was in a lot of pain. Things at home weren't good. I hated the school. I was like at a boarding school in Israel and I hated it. And I ran away for the, you know, and the reaction was I got in trouble. I. What's wrong with you? Why would you do that versus what's going on with you?

Why, why did you do that? Right. It wasn't curiosity. Of course you have to, you know, it was, I was in, I was in trouble. And so it's exactly what you're saying is like when the response becomes about discipline or you know, anger versus wanting to look at the underlying causes, then we're not gonna get to the underlying causes.

And the same is true parental parent child. The same is true in. In marriages or in relationships if we're responding with anger versus like our spouse or partner does something that upsets us and we're just being reactive and res with anger. We're not looking, we, we we're not looking at like, why did they do that?

What's going on for them? We're not gonna get to that. We're just gonna keep it on the surface of what they did. And that's often couples get stuck on, how could you do that? How could you do that? As opposed to like, what do you need? What do you need right now? Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think the, uh, two questions you, uh, pose, they're actually go back to what you said.

So you have the, why would you do that, or the what's going on, and then you have that pointing the finger at the child or looking at the environment. So those two questions completely change who the, uh, center of all that blame is. And I, I think that's important. Yeah. You know, like you said. And I wanna circle back to, you talked about being lonely, and I think that's something everyone can relate to.

Uh, even more so now than before, uh, you know, post COVID. And then also just with social media and the continuing division of the global world. Uh, you know, it's ironic as, as we all know, that we're now interconnected globally, yet we're also so far apart socially. Um, we could even branch into the how AI is declining social skills and, uh, critical thinking skills and all that as well.

Uh, AI chat pods and all that stuff. But what I want to focus on is kind of, it's interesting you mentioned the, the loading thing. 'cause I remember I. Um, I had gone on a date with a woman and then, you know, halfway through, she's like, by the way, I hope you don't mind. I have a boyfriend. I was like, uh, yeah, I kind of do mind.

Why didn't you start with that when I asked you out? I had asked her out I, on Valentine's Day on a date, and she was like, yeah, not well. I have a boyfriend, you know, uh, or not, yeah, but I have a boyfriend, or no, I have a boyfriend, so Right. Her excuse then mean I guard that. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, her excuse then was, well, he's moving in a month and I'm just setting up now for when he's gone, you know?

Uh, um, pre-ordering, you know. Yeah, right. Mr. Risky, I guess. And, um, what she said was. Honestly, he's just a placeholder title until I find the new person for when he moves, because I don't want that label of not of being single. And so I wanna talk a little bit about incorporation with loneliness. Uh, one of the things is the stigma around being single as being unvaluable, as being, um, maybe there's something wrong with you societally.

It's kind of like there's. You know, not respect for it if you're, if you choose to be a bachelor for life, I feel like there's a huge stigma around that. If you're widowed and don't get remarried, people are like, why haven't you remarried yet? If you're single in high school or you know, college, um, there's a whole stigma around you, you know?

Yeah. I think one of the pushes for. And one of the reasons why children are exposed to pornographic content as young as eight and nine years old, why children are having sex in middle school and high school. I think one of the pushes for that is this idea of, well, you're behind the game and, and, and you're not valuable if you haven't already had your first kiss by x, y, Z day.

If you, yeah, oh, you didn't lose your Virginia at prom, then it wasn't valuable prom. I think we put so many societal like standards and expectations on this stuff that now you have. In, in, in my case, uh, people who are in a relationship already, uh, are keeping the relationship just for show for pride.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. For societal, you know, um, meeting those standards. And then also, you know, getting ready to. Not be single. And that also drives one of the things we've talked about before, which is, and I'm sure you've worked a lot in it, um, rebounding, getting into relationships without being healed first, just to have that relationship, uh, status.

And I think, um, also, again, we place so much value. Of our value being into relationships. So when we get out of one, especially one that hurt us a lot, we see, hey, let's get into a new relationship because then I'll have value again, maybe more value, or someone who appreciates my value. Again, going back to that self-love.

So I know I said a whole lot there and I'm sure you can, uh, break down a lot of it for us. Yeah. Um, that would've sucked. Being told that by, on a date, you know, like 50, probably a lot more than 50% of the population. That's like deal breaker. But also the, the way that you shared that this woman described her current relationship and how she was engaging with you felt, it just feels so transactional, right?

Like Yeah. And self and self-serving. And obviously we all go into our relationships, what we get out of it. That's why, you know, when we pick a certain person, it's 'cause. Hopefully it feels good. It gives us what we need. That's our goal. So there's a self-serving element in all relationships, but it just felt, the way you're describing it, and I don't know, we're, I'm not judging her, but it, but I think that's part of the thing is like, are are we, are we, are we engaging a relationship?

'cause it like what? Just only what we get. Because if we do, then when we're in it, we're probably still gonna be focused like that. And we're not gonna be focused on what can we give. Mm. And relationships work better when we're focused on both of those things. If I'm only focused on what I'm getting, then each person's gonna be in the selfish stance and eventually be like, I'm not getting what I want, exactly what I want.

I'm done. And then, and the other thing you mentioned too about being single and the stigma and that Yeah. Is, it's definitely true. It reaches for some people, like a point of panic, right? Like, I'm never gonna find someone, and, um. Most people do statistically, although people are getting married less and in relationships less than ever before.

But still the statistics are that people find a per a relationship if they keep looking. But I think you're right. We have these things like that are like success mile markers, like being in a relationship or a marriage, having a career, certain amount of income. Then you know, those are like the big maybe children.

Those are like the big ones. That we feel like our stat, you know, kind of tell us and then tell the world that we're okay or we're doing well and you're a hundred percent right. And so like, what a shame that I'm worried, you know, if I'm, she's worried about, I don't wanna look single 'cause how it looks or what it means.

I would be curious with someone saying that to me as like. Maybe you're afraid to be single. 'cause it might be hard to be lonely. Right? Like, like if you have self value, I think the phrase you use like self love that's there, whether I'm in a relationship or not, whether I'm single or I'm partnered.

Exactly. So we all have worth, we all have, I think the same worth as every other. Human and soul, and uh, and that's independent of whether we're with someone or not, you know? And, um, but society, like most communities are very much set up to be geared towards couples and then families. And it can be really hard to be single in those communities because, you know, at a, maybe at a, a certain age range, like high school, even though the, I, yes, I totally understand the peer pressure you're talking about, but like high school, college.

Early twenties, like there's a higher percentage of singles than maybe thirties, forties, fifties on onward. Right? But after a certain point, communities are socially constructed that people interact often with. Couples go out with couples. Yeah. Uh, you know, let's say a couple in their thirties, you know, a single guy wants to go out with his friend, he's gotta do, like, what's my wife gonna do if I go out with you?

And so couples often go out with couples, families with small children, socialize often with families, with small children. So the person who's single does sometimes get marginalized and left behind. And that is tough. Like, and I, I've worked with clients in those positions. Um. Yeah. And so, but I would hope that every person, the way I always think about it is, um, I.

Like filling up a, a filling up your car with gas is like, I, I have to be able to fill up my tank and then someone else or other things can top it off. Like when you're filling up the gas and it clicks off because it's full and you can add a little more if you wanna pay, like round it up or something.

The love of another person or a job, or even like a car or something, a thing. Can add a little on top, but I've gotta fill up my tank of self-worth. 'cause none of those external things are ever gonna fill it up. They can add a little, but they're not gonna fill it up. And I, even if I get the relationship in order to fill it up, I'm still gonna probably be finding other ways to keep, I need that affirmation.

'cause it's like it doesn't stay it, like I take it in, it's gone. So yeah, that, I think that's, um, I think that was a great point. Yeah, I think it's, if I would describe it using, you know, the same analogy as you, if you have a, a crack or a hole, you know, in, in where your gas is stored, right? Someone can keep trying to fill it up, but it's gonna keep leaking out.

And when they leave, eventually you'll be empty. So. I agree. And one of the things that is really sad, it's something that I live through unfortunately, that I sincerely regret and, and maybe you have as well, which is because of that loneliness, because of the pressure and combined, um, you start lowering your standards, you get desperate and you are willing to get involved in relationships that aren't aligned with yourself, that are maybe situational, that are maybe with people that just you would never, you know, have dated before.

And then that leads to. Maybe toxic relationships failed relationships, which make you, you feel worse and even more lonely and even more desperate, and it becomes this vicious cycle. Um, so yeah, I've been through that and it's, uh, been very regrettable. Yeah. And I think that's human too. I. Like, I think what you and I so appreciate your honesty and vulnerability.

We all do that in different ways. There's a great line I love from a book. It's actually a book around sexual addiction talking about. Sexual behaviors that are problematic and it says like, what was the solution became a problem. Meaning we turn to these things and it could range at the level of like a, it could be sexual, it could be the ways we work, we, we show up in the world.

It could be people pleasing, it could be, you know, being, getting, doing things perfectly, whatever. But they are solutions to something else. Right, and then it takes on its own life and then it becomes a problem. So a, you know, a young. Teenager, maybe they're feeling lonely, maybe they don't feel connected to their family, whatever it might be.

And they get, you know, they always have to have a girlfriend or always have to have a boyfriend because that gives them a feeling of unlovable, I'm worthy. So that's a solution to the feelings that they're having. But then if that becomes compulsive or becomes like they can't be alone or like you were saying with that girl, then it becomes its own problem.

Yeah. And so a lot of times these unmet, you know, these things that they're adaptive behaviors or attitudes become maladaptive. And so, like you described, right, like, I'm so nervous about this. I'm gonna lower my standards, I'm gonna, you know, like. What type of person am I looking for? Well, somebody who wants to be with me, that's all I need.

Not what are the characteristics? What are the values that I think appreciate about them and things like that. How do we interact, how do I feel when we interact? You know, are we helping each other? Are we like tearing each other down? So, yeah, when, when, when we have these unmet needs of like, I feel.

Judged or I feel alone, or I feel un not unlovable and we're trying to solve that problem, then we reach for things or lower our standards or do things that, to fill those needs, that creates all these other issues. Yeah, for sure. You know, like, and I think one of the biggest things too is like. If you're a person looking for a serious, committed relationship and you keep settling for situation ships or temporary relationships to fill that void 'cause you don't wanna wait.

Um, mm-hmm. And I know, uh, one of the saddest stories was, uh, my mom's best friend, she was a, a mistress for a guy who kept saying he would leave his wife and kids for her and. 10 years had gone by and, and she could still be waiting for, I know I don't talk to my mom, but I remember at some point I had reached nine, 10 years and she was still waiting for him to leave the wife and kids.

Um, and, and you know, so like the solution to her loneliness was she found a guy, but mm-hmm. He's married, so she's gonna wait. And now this is a problem because now she's been a mistress for 10 years, which correct. It is an insane amount of time. I mean, that's a whole decade. Um, and there are a lot of people out there in situations like that.

We talk about, um, you know, sometimes who you are as a person. You compromise on that, uh, to be in certain types of relationships again, just to have that interaction. And we've talked, uh, before on the show about, uh, pornographic addiction and, um, people who it became very transactional. Became a very, like, necessity thing.

But one of the highlights of, uh, episode was that the, in, in terms of solutions to problem, you know, he, he wanted, you know, sexual, you know, that kind of feeling and stuff. So it starts watching porn, but then it's not enough. So he needs more and more to the point that then it branches into adultery.

Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, so now. Porn was a solution to his loneliness and, and self-love and all that. And then it became an issue because it became an addiction, which then led to adultery, which then leads to a lot of trouble financially in, in the home with if you have kids, with your kids. So it's definitely a growing thing.

And then we've seen a lot of times with pornographic addiction, um, as you. In some cases, right? Everyone's case is different. But if you're one of those cases where you need something more and more new or exciting or, or bold or daring, um, we've seen it open a gateway to a lot of. Um, types of sexual, uh, activities that normally that person wouldn't be interested in.

And it can lead to sometimes questionable, uh, sexual desires and interests that begin to cross certain boundaries that you can't cross back over. So it becomes a, I really like how you said it's a, the solution becomes the problem. Yeah. That's definitely the case in a lot of ways. Yeah. And I also think that, that what's helpful with that approach is that.

Hopefully it helps reduce the shame, right? Like why did a person get into whatever they're doing because it was so helping them deal with something else. Yeah. You know, like I don't think that most men or women who develop some kind of addiction or dependency on pornography. Start out when they do it the first time, thinking that's where they wanna be.

Just like people, uh, don't think at their first cigarette, you know, uh, I wanna become addicted to cigarettes and get lung cancer, or something like that, right? Like, right, we're just gonna do this now. And so I think often what happens is, is that I. It's, you know, masturbation is a soothing experience. It's a pleasurable experience and it sometimes then people go back to what feels good, um, because it feels good.

But sometimes people go back to what feels good, more and more to deal with something else, and then it takes on its own life. But I think. Approaching all of it, whatever it is. Whether it's like we were talking about sex or pornography, or whether we're just talking about like, you know, like for example, another strategy which doesn't create as many problems until it does is let's say somebody who has to always excel and do really well.

And so that helps them feel about better about themselves. So they always have to get, you know, be the top of their class and get e you know, excellent grades. And then they have to get into the right college. They have to get into, they always have to look the right way and go to the right church and be part of the right community and do all these things.

'cause I. If they're doing it right, then they're right. And that can work. And it doesn't create a wave, or it doesn't hurt other people necessarily. In fact, it gets praised because they're, they're meeting the benchmarks of society, like, wow, you're doing great. And the praise feeds the behavior. So they say, oh, I feel good about myself.

I'm getting acknowledged. They do more and more. And then, you know, they're, they're in a relationship or they're married and they're at work all the time. Because that's where they're getting the validation from. And they're not workaholic developing their marriage or their relationship with their children, or even the relationship with themselves and they, or they burn out or they hit a wall or they lose their job and that identity is gone.

So it worked and it was even praised and they're making money and they're succeeding, and then it doesn't work for them at some point. Or there's a side. Impact. You know, it's like the commercials on television for various prescription medications that are there, are created to help you with something.

But they're like, side effects might include, you know, you die, your head falls off, your stomach drops out, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and nobody takes it for that, but it's an unintended possible consequence. And the same thing with all of these strategies that we do, where the, the other extreme, right, like somebody got hurt.

And maybe they avoid getting into relationships. Yeah. They isolate or, or they might even be prickly to people to keep them like a porcupine, you know, to keep them like this at at bay. And that keeps them safe. It keeps their hearts safe, which is what we're all trying to do. I think keep our tender, fragile hearts, not from hurting, but then eventually what that works against 'em.

'cause now they're lonely. Maybe they're depressed. Mm-hmm. They don't have connection and support in their lives. And let's say for men where it's much more worse than women, they have a higher rate of depression, suicide, substance abuse, alcoholism, all these things which often come from, you know, one of the primary things that are noticed is that they don't have good emotional support.

They don't have a strong sense of community or people you know, um, because they're either. Avoiding connection because connection might equal weakness, which masculinity is like, don't show like weakness, right? Right. If you really like a friend, maybe you're gay or you're weak or they're showing, it shows that like, you know, focus on other things and not on your feelings.

And so like there's all, we all have strategies. Some are more, some can have the potential to be destructive, some. Don't. Um, but they're all really, I think in the end really everyone's just trying to, like, wanting to feel okay and not, and, and finding a way to protect their heart. Yeah, I want to get into, uh, intimacy, betrayal, trauma and stuff like that in a minute here.

But what I will say, uh, first is, uh, with the whole prescription medication, uh, analogy there, uh, also, uh, even if there aren't side effects, uh, which usually there are, but a lot of times you might have those, there's also a guideline for how often you're supposed to take it and when you're supposed to take it.

Um, so I think with a lot of solutions, right, solutions, um. There's a, a balance to it, you know, especially with the example of work. You know, we talk a lot on my show about burnout, recovery and burnout prevention, and, uh. Yeah, you can have success. You have work, and you can also have a family and have a social life.

Uh, but there's a balance. But a lot of people, and a lot of people get addicted to medications too. So I think it's a perfect analogy. And then I love the solution problem because I. Uh, one of the things I do is I also work with men who are trying to limit or quit, uh, masturbation and slash or, uh, pornography.

And, um, a lot of times they go hand in hand. And the number two reasons I always hear why it happens. Number one is the, the loneliness, but number two, sometimes more than the first one. I'm bored or I, I was bored and, and it kind of just happened or I couldn't sleep and so I just decided, or it just ended up happening.

And um, so number one thing, uh, for people who are, are trying to quit is always, there's so many other things you can do when you have that feeling. Come on. I, I think when you're so, like again. The solution to your boredom was masturbation or watching porn, but then if it's every time you're bored now, which can be very often throughout the day, especially if you're lonely on top of it.

It becomes now suddenly you're watching porn every day or all the time not to feel good, but just so you're not bored, just so you're doing something. Mm. Mm-hmm. Um, and to me it's really sad when there's so many things you could be doing, um, when you're bored that are helping other serve other people as well as yourself from right.

Playing guitar to reading, to, to writing, to doing what we're doing. Um, so again, just that solution problem cycle. Yeah. But I definitely want to get into, uh, betrayal and intimacy. Betrayal. Um, we've mentioned there's a lot of divorce, cheating. There's a lot of broken, uh, relationships, toxic relationships, and I, I, I can relate a lot to that idea of being guarded, you know?

Um, because for a long time. I was, uh, I kept getting with the same type of women because I didn't want to judge and project and say, Hey, I've been in this exact situation before, so it's gonna turn out the same way because I don't feel like it's right to judge people. But I have learned, uh, boundary setting and that there are certain patterns and overlaps and, um, there are certain quote, I was always, the red flags don't exist kind of guy.

And I, I have changed that mindset, but I think it's important to. Caution and avoidance are, are two different things and protection and, um, Outkast and, and isolation are different. So I'd love to get into your work with that kind of stuff. Yeah. Well it's interesting, um, this idea of betrayal trauma, and I think the way you're using it is where somebody in an, that we're in a intimate relationship with betrays us.

Um. And that's a term that really is only about 15 years old in this context of like romantic partners, right? Or spouses or whatever. Yeah. But it was really taken from a term that was created as a book called Betrayal Trauma, written by a woman, Jennifer Fray, uh, in the nineties, who was a trauma therapist up in Boston.

And she originated it from the betrayal of a parent to a child. So if a parent betrays their child by harming them in some form, and I I, when I say that, I wanna just be explicit. Like, I don't mean like, I don't know, they didn't show up to one of their baseball games. Right? Or that they, there's no parent, perfect parent, right?

In fact, I like the phrase like the good enough parent, but when they betray them in some way, um. Because of the depen, the, the nature of the relationship from parent to child, the impact on the child is so much greater than if. A friend and betrayed them, right? Right. Like a parent co regulates their, the nervous system with the child.

And the child is dependent in healthy ways on that parent's caregiving and to make the world a safe place. And so that's where the term came from. And as we've started to understand since then more and more about attachment and we see the connection between how our relationship with our. Parent child relationship shapes what we then look for and how we show up in our adult romantic relationship.

So if I have a securely attached relationship with my parent, then when I now date, I will probably feel secure when I'm in a romantic relationship. If I have an anxiously attached relationship with the parent, then that's what's, that's what love feels like. I'm gonna probably seek out someone subconsciously that that feels the similar.

Similarly to. So as we've understood attachment more and the similarity between those relationships from parent child to romantic partner, we've, they took the idea of betrayal trauma and they understand now like, oh, when a romantic partner who also co regulates us. Like if you're, you walk in the home, you've had a rough day, wherever you've been, and you tell your spouse or your partner like, oh, I had such a hard day.

And they're like, come here honey, lemme give you a hug. And your body just relaxes. Like, ugh. That's them regulating you. So our romantic partners are the people who are supposed to be the, we co-regulate our nervous systems with, and we, um, they help, they're like our safety net in the world. So when that person then betrays you, it impacts you greater than a, a friend or someone else did it.

And that's, and that's similar to as if a parent did it. So, um, yeah, it's devastating. Um, you know, there's different levels of it, right? Like, um, obviously like the way it's usually used is where one person in a relationship has some level of secretive. Sexual behaviors. Um, and they're keeping them secret from their partner.

Um, and they're harming their partner during that phase, even if the partner doesn't know about it. And then once the partner discu discovers it often, there's a lot of like damage control, denial, minimizing and gaslighting that goes in a lot of harm done to the partner then. Um, and so the field has really changed even since I've been in it.

I'd say the last 15 to 17 years, it's changed. And how we help those partners before. If a couple would come into my office or other therapist's office, um, that it would be like, well, let's look at what this side of the relationship's doing. Let's look at what this side of the relationship's doing. A lot of the folks would be on getting the person who did the betraying acts to change.

Um, but we didn't really understand all the different impacts of the betrayal. So it's not just that they don't trust their husband or their wife anymore or their partner, they also don't trust themselves. Because if they're, yeah, how did I miss this? What's wrong with me? Or even worse, oh, now I realize, I kind of knew I saw these things, right?

I walked in and I saw this thing that felt questionable. I saw this message on a, a text message. I saw them looking at something online. I saw them acting with someone a certain way, and I asked them, and they're like, oh, no, no. And I do not listen to my gut. So they feel they even betrayed themselves. It, there's a wound of like.

Why am I not enough? Why'd you choose someone else or a, or a, or a, um, an image of someone else? If it's electronic, not an actual person. Right? So there's a wound of like. If anyone has an I'm not enough wound, which who doesn't in some level, right? It hits that preexisting wound. It's so painful. So there's the feeling of like, why didn't you choose me in the rejection?

There's a feeling of like, a lot of times if they're, if they're not sure if they wanna stay in their relationship or not, they don't go and tell everybody because if they tell everybody, all their friends are gonna be like, or their family will be like, get rid of that person. Well, how are you there? And then they feel judged if they're not ready to do that.

And so they sometimes end up protecting the very person that caused them the pain and being so isolated alone because they don't have support, because they're keeping it inside while they're figuring out what to do. Those are just a few, but there's a lot of different wounds that happen for a betrayed partner.

And so, um, every person. Speech is the person who has to decide should they stay in a relationship or not. Right? When someone comes to me, I wanna help them do what's best for them. I'm not gonna tell 'em they should or shouldn't stay. They have to figure out what's best and, and I'll help them to try to figure that out.

What's the, what they need or wanna do, and then to be true to that. But, um, it's a scary thing and it's a painful thing. And it often the average betrayed partner, like in my experience, their nervous system doesn't. Settle down for 18 to 24 months, they're hypervigilant like wow. I read a study year a a couple years ago outta Stanford University studying the symptoms PTSD symptoms of veterans who had been in combat in Afghanistan or Iraq, and they were the same symptoms I was seeing with betrayed partners that I work with hypervigilance.

Depression, anxiety, inability to sleep, you know, questioning self-worth, loss of desire to live. So they're, they're, they're very similar. In fact, I think they're even worse because, you know, the symptoms are, are more painful in no sense. Because if you're a, a guy, a person in the military and you're in a war zone and you're, you're dealing with horrific things.

There's an honesty about what you're dealing with. Like, you know, you're in a war zone. No one's saying to you, you're at actually at a peace conference and we're all, and while all this killing is going on, right? Right. But in a betrayed betrayal situation in relationship, there's often someone saying, there's nothing going on.

What are you talking about? What are you talking when your body is screaming? Know I'm in a war zone. I'm in a dangerous place. Mm-hmm. So that gaslighting and misdirecting. Often causes the PTSD symptoms to last longer and to be more severe. And it's painful. It's like one of the hardest. It's some of the, the clients that I we work with who've gone through betrayal have some of the worst trauma symptoms that I see.

And, you know, I just, you just have to work with them at the pace that is works for them and help them. Um, and it takes a while. For sure. And I know, um, you know, the betrayal trauma is just one of many things that you work with. So as we wrap up this episode, um, your website's gonna be in the description below, but I'd love for you to share a little bit about it.

I know there's a lot of different things that you cover, so kind of going over those so that people get what you're about. Yeah, sure. Um, yeah, so we, you know, like I said, we deal with intimacy. I'd say 50% of our practice or maybe even more, does deal with people who avoid deeper intimacy by secret sexual behaviors, you know, so we're working helping them with that and the people who are impacted by that, like the betrayed partners and, and family members like you discussed.

Um, and then we deal also with a lot of other sex. Like, I call it like classic sex therapy things of couples that come in and they're having trouble with their sexual relationship. There's a lot of therapists who are uncomfortable talking about sex, which is, you know, I think the world is uncomfortable about it and, um, helping people to talk about it with their spouse or their partner in a way that's healing and helpful and not shameful.

So that people can learn and often many people don't get an education in school or even from parents about how to talk about these things, so they're so uncomfortable with it. Um, and helping with that. And then, um. We have a lot of groups. We probably have like 13 to 15 groups at any time during per week for men or for women, and sometimes co-ed that either deal with like men working with intimacy or struggling with behaviors, um, and women dealing with the same, or with betrayal trauma too.

Um, and you know, I just think that wherever someone. We work with all people, you know, individual couples and groups, and also people from all backgrounds. So, um, across the spectrum and what is okay for them, let's say morally or religiously or not, and we work with people in the framework that they're in.

There's no agenda to try to change anybody, like, you know, like a, a a, a professional therapist should accept. Value work with the client and the value system that they're in. Mm-hmm. And be respectful of it and help them to have the most integrity, and I would say like integration of their value system and their lifestyle that helps them live the most authentic life they can.

Right. So, like I said, it is gonna be in the description below your website where they can find, uh. All of this in much greater detail. Um, like I said, we could record for hours if we went over everything you work in, uh, decades of, uh, expertise. But I wanna thank you for what you have shared today. I think we've had a great conversation and I think, um, you know, the reality of how impactful betrayal trauma is that that is shocking to say it's on the level of that, you know, combat zone ptsd, TSD, but like you said, with.

With the, uh, unexpected aspect of it. I think that's so important. And again, the focus on the, the self-love and value. I think one of the most important things is regardless of whether you're in a relationship or not, your value should stand. And I think that's why so many people put forward work on yourself first, and, and once you're, you're happy with yourself, then you'll attract.

And um, yeah. So Mr. Katz, thank you for the work that you do and for coming on and sharing some of your wisdom with us today. It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.