Shame, Trauma, & Control: Silencing The Inner Narcissist

Today, I sit down with Emma Lyons, a transformational guide helping people—especially women—break free from the toxic grip of shame and the control of the inner narcissist. We get into the roots of self-sabotage, how shame becomes embedded in our nervous system, and why it continues to limit our visibility, voice, and vitality throughout adulthood.

Ms. Lyons introduces us to a powerful concept she calls the “inner narcissist”—a shaming voice inside that mimics the behavior of real-life narcissists. We explore how this voice isn’t actually our own, but a reflection of trauma, dysfunctional families, and societal programming. I share stories from my own life about how shame shapes identity, especially when it’s been instilled from a young age by parents, teachers, and toxic systems.

We also break down the dangerous normalization of shame in parenting, hustle culture, and social media. Ms. Lyons speaks on how this trauma shows up in adulthood through burnout, fear of visibility, perfectionism, and relationships.

https://tinyurl.com/nottodaynarc

https://traumamatrix.substack.com/

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*Couple O' Nukes LLC and Mr. Whiskey are not licensed medical entities, nor do they take responsibility for any advice or information put forth by guests. Take all advice at your own risk.

Transcript

 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple of Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and at some point in our lives, all of us will deal with insecurities, with negative thoughts with self-criticism. It's almost inevitable we all go through at some point. But today I wanna focus particularly about the voice of shame that many women are living with, whether it's about their finances or their body image, or just their life or their business.

We're gonna get into all that today, as well as the inner narcissist control and what that means. We're here with Emma Loy, who helps people, specifically women break free from all these invisible. Things that are holding us back in life and how we can live more abundantly and thrive once we deal with them.

So Ms. Loon, so glad to have you here and could you please tell us a little bit about yourself? Thanks for having me, Mr. Whiskey. My name is Emma Lyons and uh, what I do is I work a lot with women, but not only women, and I help them to disconnect from the shame that's basically running so many people's lives.

I call it the inner narcissist. Because the voice that we have inside our head that's commonly referred to as, you know, the inner critic, and we're told by common wisdom that you need to sit down and have therapy with it and you know, have cucumber sandwiches and tea with it. And I've noticed that in my life.

I've done that and basically what happens, you just have a bottomless pit of shame. You keep basically reinforcing it. And I recognize that it's. Exactly like the voice of a narcissist, you know, because the narcissist shames you in exactly the same way and tells you it's doing it for your own good and then it's trying to protect you.

But every time you perform for it or you know, you react to it, you actually just provide it with more and more narcissistic supply. And that's exactly what happens with this voice inside your head when you sit with it. When you empathize with the shame, when you try to understand that that's important to do to a degree, but uh, then you just need to separate yourself from it because it is not you.

And I think that's the huge mistake that we have in, you know, Western culture. Particularly we have internalized this idea of shame and cons. It's considered to be normal and natural, even experts on shame like John Bradshaw and Brene Brown. They talk that. They say that shame is a little bit of shame, keeps you humble, it keeps you a good person.

And I believe that is completely false. Shame is what drives all the worst things that we do up to, up to, up to genocide. This is driven by shame that we project out at other people and it happens. We see this shame directed inwards in the form of what I call the inner narcissist. And then we project it outwards at other people and do this collectively.

So it leaves us in a double bind where like shame is something that we should feel, but that we can't, can never really release, if that makes sense.

So I'm all about releasing, getting out of the cage of shame when most therapy is about, you know, polishing the cage from inside, if that makes sense. Yeah. I think the difference between a critic and narcissist are important because like critical feedback, you can take something productive from that to a degree.

Narcissism, like you said, it's that control, it's that guilt. Yeah. And it's to some degree lying to yourself, you know, gaslighting yourself and Exactly. I think that's different than just criticism and feedback. It's so negative. So I think that's important, but. Let's backtrack to your discovery. You versus your own inner narcissist, how did that all you know, kind of come to be?

Well, I mean, I've been very much run by shame my whole life and really struggled with like depression all my life that was never really recognized. My parents never really recognized it. I just thought it was normal to have like suicidal ideation and very negative thoughts internalized. But, uh, I realized that that wasn't the case and I started investigating and doing lots of healing work and therapy on myself and going to therapy.

And what I found is that it didn't work. It was basically like doing. Doing feng shui and the furniture moving around the furniture when the house is on fire. I kept on, you know, it felt a little bit better, and then I would revert back because I was never really dealing with this underlying issue of shame.

I realized later that my mother was a covert narcissist, and that was the reason why I had internalized. This, like most of this, where most of us are come from dysfunctional families, psychology, they talk about how, you know, 70% of families, particularly in the west, it might even be more, are dysfunctional.

And we end up playing roles that are basically out of shame. We, if you're, whether you're the scapegoat, you're the golden child, you're the invisible child, these are all roles that are really, really operating out of shame and they don't stay in your childhood. We take those roles into our adulthood and we keep playing them because we, we have internalized them so much.

So I believe that really reclaiming your power, you need to get released this shame that's not even yours. And I think that's the big mistake that people we've, we think this shame is ours and we think it's something that you need to internalize and integrate. No, this is shame from our families that's been passed down intergenerational trauma.

That a lot of us are still carrying, particularly if you were the scapegoat in your family. And we need to, we need to release it, recognize that it's not our, it's not us, and it's not ours. And that that shaming voice isn't, it's not you. It's not trying to help you. And that's, that's the, that's the trick.

I think for, for many years I was confused. I thought the voice inside my head that said, you're stupid. You're ugly. You're fat, you're no good. I thought it was trying to protect me from something because this is what I, what I'm being told, and I was confused. Is it my higher self? Is it something else? But it's really, really simple to know.

The difference is that voice shaming you. If it's shaming you, it doesn't have your, be your your best. It's not your higher self. It's not your, it's not really looking after you, if it's shaming you. It's looking out for itself. Just like the covert narcissist. It is. It pretends to be looking after you, like gives you a punch in the face and says, you can't be a singer.

You can't do that podcast, you can't do that thing. And I'm saying this for your own good. And that's a lie. That is, that is an outright lie. What? They're not doing it to help you. They're doing it to soothe their own anxiety. 'cause that would make them feel anxious. If you were running a podcast. They'd feel anxious.

So they're telling you you can't do it because. For their benefit. They want you to look after their feelings rather than any real sense of care. And I think we have confused this idea of care, of, of control and care. We have really conflated them. And when, when something's trying to control you, that's not love, that's not care, that's not concern, that's domination, that's control.

And that's something that you need to get yourself away from. Especially in the context of parenting guidance versus controlling two very different styles. I want to go to, I really like what you said about, uh, a people projecting their insecurities and worries onto you into shame. You know? 'cause I've experienced that a lot with people, uh, you know, belittling me from my age and I've had some guests who.

On my show who were much older and they were told they were too old to do things. And I think the idea of, you know, like, again, the criticism versus shame. So like if you're saying to yourself, you're, you're fat, you, you know, you're ugly rather than, how different is that from. I want to get healthier. I want to get in better shape.

Those are two similar statements, but with very different context and meanings. I want to go into, you've mentioned a lot of trauma in how we embody that and what it means later on in life, so. What role? I wanna have two discussions. The first one on the role of parenting and yeah, best practices for parenting to prevent the creation of shame and also social media.

We know so many people nowadays have a lot of screen time consumption, social media consumption, and I've had a lot of conversations on my show already about the comparison game, you know, and this internalization of shame. Through comparison of, I don't have those sports cars I'm seeing online, or I'm not as jacked as that guy, or as pretty as that girl who's been Photoshopped.

You know, I wanna talk about the role of social media, but it starts first with parenting. So what can you say to that degree? I, I very much so. We, our parents have been taught through shame, and that's the way they parent. We've all been taught to parent through shame. It happens unconsciously. We shame ourselves and we shame other people because that's kind of the malware that's been installed, particularly in Western cultures, but not exclusively in western cultures, in the empires in general.

This, uh, and shame is the way that we've been taught to, to. To, to even teachers in schools, they shame people in order to get them to stop doing what they're doing. And parents do that with their kids all the time, and they think it's normal because that's what we've been told. That's the model that's being exemplified everywhere.

Shame people and get them to stop what they're doing. But it's always toxic. You know, if you, if I, if the child behaves badly and you say, bad boy, bad girl, are you, you, you actually, instead of talking about the behavior. You shame them. It creates a wound and it might stop them from the behavior, but it is toxic for them.

But the thing is, it's so normalized in our culture that, so we don't, a lot of parents, they do it naturally. That's the way they've been parented. That's why I talk about it as a kind of malware. It's like, you know, fish and water. We don't realize that we're in it because it's everywhere. And, uh, you're talking about social media.

Yeah, shame is everywhere. That's how people get other people. They shame them. You're fat, you're ugly. You don't have, you have an ugly nose. And the thing is, if you don't have the internal narcissist that agrees it won't affect you, you know, on some level. Because if, if I come up to you and say, Mr. Whiskey, I, I really hate your hot, your hottest.

Is so ugly. It's disgusting. You're, you're laughing at me now. But if you, you would, you could be sha someone could be shamed by that. If they have an inner narcissist in their head that says, yeah, my hat. I look so stupid in this hat. That's the only way you feel shame when you have the narcissist that agrees.

So that's why it's so important. We wanna get rid of this. We wanna exercise this narcissist because then we, the more we become immune to this inner narcissist, the more we immune immunize ourselves against. People on the outside shaming us, we'll just laugh them off. We'll say, okay, you're crazy. You know, that's, uh, that's about you.

That's not about me. Um, so the real problem is the narcissist that we've internalized in our own critical voice. And it's not normal, it's not natural. It's using shame. And shame is toxic, and we've gotta, we can cut it out. We do this individually by noticing when you're shaming yourself. That's the key.

Notice how normal it is. Like if you drop something, if you drop ablaze or drop something, notice how you might, you might shame yourself and say, oh my God, I'm so stupid. You know, for doing that. This is something that's so normal in our culture, but it is shaming. And then we go on to do that to other people.

When they make a mistake, we say, you're so stupid. So the the, the change happens when we start recognizing it in ourselves, recognizing it out there in culture, and actually stop doing it. And that becomes you when you recognize that this voice, it's not you, it's a narcissist inside your head. You can say, when the shaming voice comes up, you say, no, I'm not taking that on.

That's not mine. Good luck to you. And then all the people that are trying to shame you, you'll be just, you can just laugh at them and think they're okay. You're crazy. You're entitled to your opinion. It doesn't affect me. So this is the power of freeing ourselves, of this inner narcissist. Like that rippling effect of inward outward.

And I think going back to parenting, one of the issues is it's very hard for children to not just agree because, I mean, you're raised to think that your parents know everything, that they're the best in the world. Yeah. And so whatever they say is the truth. Exactly. You know? 'cause I, I've written about this in some books I'm featured in, it's like.

Some of the things that my parents said about me are people were like, why would you ever believe that? I said, because I was a kid. And they, that's what they told me. You know? Exactly. Now in life I understand it's, it's different. Right now I'm at a point where I am independent and individual and their opinions don't affect me, but there's still a lot of stuff just embedded from childhood that is hard to deal with, but I love the idea of.

Punishment versus discipline and how there are two different things, but can have the same result but with a different after effect. And I always put that forward is, you know, understanding the behavior. Right? I agree with you. It's always not about the behavior. It's all saying to you, could you are the problem, not why did you act this way?

Exactly like, oh, you acted this way because of something else in the system. It's not blaming any environmental or system factor. It's blaming them and then like you said, that. An easy way to see that is young women who were always told they were the problem as a kid. Now they're in a relationship and let's say there's a fight in a relationship and their partner is saying, you're the problem.

They're gonna say, I've always been the problem. You're right. I'm just always the problem. Right. So it translates into relationships. Or if that young woman goes and makes a mistake at work and the boss is, you know, blaming it on her, even though it was actually just because of the company stuff, you know?

So I think it's so important. Yeah. Like you said, it affects all parts of our life. Exactly. This is the scapegoat dynamic that I've been, that I was talking about in dysfunctional families. They will choose someone to be the scapegoat or the system. It's not always a conscious thing. It's like the system will look for someone to dump all that.

You basically like the landfill of all the family dysfunction, all the shame that nobody wants to look at. It gets dumped on maybe the, often it's the quiet, introverted, sensitive person and it all gets dumped on them. It's their problem. They're the crazy one. They're the one who is a big. Mis mistake.

They're constantly doing bad things or whatever, and they go into their, their adulthood carrying that trauma, and they become, they become the scapegoats in their, in their lives as well. Think about it like the scapegoat. Their life, your life is not supposed to work if you're a scapegoat. So scapegoats often are the ones that end up in therapy because their lives aren't working because the, the impact of their childhood.

Really affects 'em that they actually have no choice but to seek alp and they can also end up with drug and drug and addiction problems because that they're looking for an escape from all of that. So alcohol and drugs and all of those things, all those addictions. The real symptom is shame. You can, they can all be traced back to this toxic shame and all shame is toxic.

In my view. There is no positive shame. That's like saying a little bit of poison is good for you. Mm-hmm. But if you look at indigenous cultures before, like Western culture came along they had this idea of restorative. You know, if somebody does something that's outside the norms, they're brought together. And like you said. Why did you do, why what? What made you do that? What's going on with you? Rather than shaming that person and exiling them and causing more toxicity and more shaming and that to develop into something, you know, culturally, which is what we have in Western cultures.

We have this culture that is built on shame and we're basically breathing shame everywhere we look on social media, we're taking it in and it is really toxic and you know, it's just, it's. Their, their shame does not serve any function. It's not a normal and natural emotion. It's an emotion that we've been, we've been told it's normalized in our culture, but that doesn't mean that it's normal.

You talked about. Healing and breaking through being about not talking with this inner narcissist, but cutting them off, you know, separating Yeah. From your life. How do we do that? Because it sounds really easy, but obviously it's not. Especially the longer you've lived with this inner narcissist and the more deeply it's embedded in you, it's gonna be more difficult.

So how do we go about that? That's a really good question. And first thing is to recognize that you have it. Because recognize that it's not you, so dissociating yourself from it because that's the, that's the fundamental problem. We say, I'm telling myself that I'm stupid. I'm telling myself that I'm bad.

No, first of all, it's not you. It's the narcissistic voice inside. It's the inner narcissist that you've internalized. It's not you, and that that's already very helpful because you can, you create some kind of distance and you don't have to believe everything that it says. Second, when it does speak to you or when it does shame you, sometimes it can be a voice that says you're stupid or you're fat, or you're ugly.

Recognize it. Or when it brings up a feeling of shame, you recognize that's not you. You don't, and you can just reject it. You just say, no, that's not mine. Goodbye. You know, and it's, it's, it's a practice, like you said, if you've been shaming yourself for 40, 50 years, obviously that voice, it's gonna take a little bit of work.

But recognizing it and then re re, you know, responding to it when it comes by not dancing to its tune, you know? 'cause the more you, the more you either react to it, you try to argue with it, you try to take it to therapy, you try to empathize it. You are, are listened to it. You know, it says you can't go up there and sing, you look like a fool.

If you listen to that voice, you're feeding it. And also, if you react to that voice, if you like rebel from that voice, you're also feeding it. So you've gotta kind of keep that inner line and just do what you're passionate about. So if the inner, whatever the inner voice is saying, you say, no, I'm passionate about doing this.

I'm gonna do it. Don't just react. For and against what that voice is telling you. Just the, the biggest, you know, the biggest thing that you can do to free yourself of this inner narcissist is to thrive, you know, is, is to thrive doing what you want to do. That is it. That is how you exercise this demon, and it is a demon.

It's something that's kind of leaching your energy. It's a parasite that's basically just sucking you dry. It doesn't serve you. It's not trying to protect you. It's not got your best interest at heart. Recognizing that is huge part in waking up and freeing yourself of that, because a huge part of why we we're, we're, we feel like we're stuck with this thing is because we believe that voice is us.

So recognizing that at a really deep level is step number one, and then live in, live your life and thrive and say no to that voice, which I recognize is not easy. It takes a bit of practice, but, uh, this is, this is where it starts. Do you feel like women have a more difficult time with this inner narcissist than men, or it's kind of both deal with it in different ways?

How does that work? You know, in the gender dynamics? That's a really good question, Mr. Whiskey. Yes, I do believe there is a difference because women, I'm not saying men don't experience shame and don't have an inner 'cause. You know, men end up in, men end up, you know, at addicts and with problems, mental health problems as well.

But, uh, women, we, there is, there is a lot of, kind of a legacy of shame that's been placed on women. And even, you know, you know, women, women are criticized, oh, you're too fat, you're ugly. Yeah, you don't have the right clothes, you're too fat. You have the cellulite. So there is a lot more shaming I think, of women, especially from the physical body perspective than men get.

And even women do that to each other. We, they pull it and shame down each other. Right. Shame each other in order to kind of build themselves up. And that's a perfect example of shame acting out. We've internalized the shame. We, we, we don't wanna process it. So we find some other woman or some other thing and we shame her.

She's fat, she's ugly. She, she has a face for radio or something, you know, we think we're being so funny. But we're actually just passing on that shame and it's so toxic. It hurts us, it hurts everyone that we're exposed to. So yes, I think women have a, a different kind of degree of shame. So maybe slightly deeper, maybe sidely internalized than men.

So, yeah, and I think a lot of women are also quite self-aware, so they might be more connected to the shame. Men might have it more. Dis, um, compartmentalizing. They might not even be aware that the shame is operating from them, but women will be more connected to it. They'll feel it more, they'll recognize it as shame, and they'll want to pass it on more, if that makes sense.

For sure. And I think, you know, on the men's side it's more, you know, rather than weight, it's more about height and then money and kind of like what you provide. But what I will say, a, a example that I remembered is I knew a woman who did exactly what you're talking about. She would keep only women who were much heavier than her or as her friends because she said, it makes me so much prettier.

Yeah. And I, when I heard that, I mean. I was, I was just mind blown. You know, like you purposefully keep certain looking women as your friends to make yourself pre, and this was a, a, a, a pretty woman and to begin with. Uh, but the idea of, like you said, that's, uh, like weaponizing shame almost in a, in a way.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. To, uh, bring herself up and push others down. And that's classic narcissistic tactic. You know, they, it's called triangulation, where they compare you to someone else. And, and we do, the inner narcissist does that exact same thing. If you check all the strategies that narcissists out there in the world, use the, the inner narcissist or the inner critic, it's, um, it does, uses exactly the same things.

It says, oh, look at her. She's so much prettier than you. You're an ugly fool. You know, it's, it, it's very, it can be very malignant. The voice. Right. And without that voice, you know, this is, this is the real underlying reason why people feel desperate and they feel like their life has no point. You know, because this inner narcissist tell them it's not about what happens out there in the world for people to fight, make that, that act, the final act, and, you know, become, get a check out of life.

This inner narcissist has to be telling them that, you know, it has to be saying, oh, you're no good. You might as well not be here. You know that, that without that doesn't matter what circumstances. You have people going on. You need that voice in order to take that step. I think a great example that you reminded me of is in relationships, uh, people who will compare you to their exes or say, my ex never did that, or My ex was better at X, Y, Z.

And that's again, weaponizing shame and using yes to, I like, like we said in the very beginning, control. It's, uh, you know exactly, exactly. To control and so Exactly. It's always about control. Shame is never. It's never really about helping people. It's already, it is always about control. If you look at the underlying motivation, it's, they might pretend, oh, I'm doing it for good cause, but no, I'm doing it to help you.

But no, they're doing it to, to control you. It's always about domination and feeling like we're in control because, because all of us are operating out of this sense of shame, conscious or unconscious. So we wanna find someone to control, to feel like we have some power again. So it's a very, it's a very messed up.

It's a very dysfunctional thing that really, it's kind of the currency of the world we live in. And it's really sad. It's really sad. We're all operating out of shame. And you can also see that in kind of collectives. You can see that in collective groups as well. You know, you have groups that, that weaponize the, the, all this unprocessed shame in the country, for example.

And they projected on immigrants. It's the immigrant's fault, and then they, they deal with get rid of the immigrants to try to get rid of their shame. Just like in families, they project the shame on the, on the, on the scapegoat and say, it's your fault. You're the stupid one. You're the mentally ill one.

We, we can see that playing out on bigger levels as well, so it's absolutely everywhere. For sure, and I think it's like you, we could call it self-sabotage as well, you know, because you're then putting limiting beliefs on yourself, and I think it happens a lot. So what are some things that people could be self-sabotaging themselves from that they don't even realize?

Like how does this affect women and their wealth, their visibility, and all of that? Well in, in every single way. This is, this is the reason why we have, like, I love the way you spoke about, you know, men, the difference between men and women and this idea of the hustle culture. This is how you have to be working hard.

You have to be pushing, you have to be working, you have to be providing. And for women particularly, we have that as well. This idea of the hustle culture, and this is why women end up burning out. Because, you know, we, we internalize to be good, to be good person, which you can never actually be because you inter you.

There's this idea of shame that we've all got, got that you're a bad person. So we're constantly trying to be good, and that means performing. That means working hard all the time. That means constant struggle. So this is why people end up burning out. In terms of visibility as well, if you're in a business like it's showing up can be a huge thing.

If you were invisible as a child. You know, when you showed up, you were attacked, you were abused. So we have this really deeply ingrained idea that I have to be invisible. And it's not just about mindset. It's not just about belief systems. And this is where a lot of, a lot of, uh, a lot of people go wrong.

They talk about just changing your belief systems. This is wired into your nervous system, which is deeper than just, you know, the banter is, I'm good enough. You know, your, your, your body is actually trying to protect you from being attacked. So this is why so many people struggle with visibility and showing up and actually following through on their things.

Because if they're wired with this belief that if I show up, if I do the thing, I'll be attacked, I'll be abused. I, I won't survive. So we stay small, we stay in spirals of self-sabotage, and we wonder why we're, because the shame is, it's all about keeping you small. So we stay small, we stay safe, and we never expand in our, into our potential.

And the the reason is the shame. Right. That fear of speaking up or trying new things. And I mean, a great example is a lot of students in middle school or high school, they won't raise their hand and answer a question because they're so afraid of getting it wrong. Because everyone in the classroom is gonna say, you're stupid.

You're an idiot. Exactly. You know, even the idea of. You know, the teachers will try to put forward for questions. There are no dumb questions, but there's a shame around people or scared to even ask questions, to the point that a lot of professors now and high school teachers and all that, they'll say if you're, if you're too embarrassed to ask a question in front of everyone.

Come find me at the end of the class and ask me privately. That right there highlights how much shame is in our culture. The fact that people have to go ask the questions privately to not be publicly shamed. I mean, I think that's a great example right there. And some other traits that I feel like get embodied that we've spoken about on my show, especially in terms of relationships, uh, from trauma, especially parenting, is, you know.

Along the lines of self-sabotage, even the people pleasing, the perfectionist, the, uh, the workaholic syndrome, all of those stemming from the shame of, I'm not good enough, or I need more, I need more. Or, um, you know, again, that fear of speaking up and, and being shamed. Yeah, it's all shame. You know, the rich person, the billionaire who wants more, you know, this is, this is man shame.

I need more. I need more. That's again, shame. That's operating that need for constant more because right, we have this emptiness inside and we feel we're constantly trying to fill it up from the outside, but you can never fill that void of shame while you have the unprocessed shame inside you. Money doesn't do it.

You have to address the root cause, and that means. That means recognizing the shame that means, like feeling it a little bit, recognizing that it's there, recognizing that you have this voice inside, this thing inside you that's sucking you dry, that's shaming you. And then exercising yourself of it, you know, releasing it, recognizing that it's not you.

And that I think is the difference between men and women. I think women were more in tune with this voice, with this entity. We feel it more. Whereas men, we have this kind of distance, this dissociation. But they're still operating from shame in a more indirect way in the performance. You've gotta make money in order to be good enough, you've gotta be a strong man.

You've gotta support your people, or you're useless, or you're no good, or you're not a real man. You know? These are all very shaming ideas and you can see all of them in the kind of masculine culture, particularly in Western societies. Right. And now we've mentioned some advice for breaking free from this and separating, but for those of us who maybe can't do it on our own or still have a lot more questions, you work with people one-on-one to help them live and thrive.

Correct. I do. Yes. So what I would suggest if this, uh, if this has, uh, if this conversation has inspired you or made you think or feel something in different way, what I would suggest is the next step. I have a free gift for you guys, and it's five signs. It's time to break up with your inner narcissist. So these are like five things to look out for, and it gives you some guidance as to what to do as well.

So that I, that I would say is your next step. Check that out. Um, five signs. It's time to break up with your Inner Narciss system. You can find it@tinyurl.com. Not today, narc, not today, narc. So you can find it there or you can follow me on social media. I am trauma matrix, trauma dot matrix on Instagram and TikTok, and also over on Substack Trauma Matrix.

So follow me, reach out to me. Don't stay alone in this because. Shame really thrives when you keep it to yourself. That's what shame wants. We wanna speak about it openly. We want to recognize it, uh, recognize it so we can release it and let go of it. For sure, and we're gonna have your website in description below so people can find you to work with you or get more information, like you said, those five signs.

Uh, I love that. Not today, narc. You know, I think that's good, but that's, that's where it starts, you know, one day at a time and you know, saying no. So I appreciate everything you've shared in today's conversation, and thank you for guesting on the show. Thank you so much for having me. I hope this has been useful for you and your listeners.