The Truth About Drugs In Prison: Rock N' Recovery With Jay Bush

Today, I sit down with Jay Bush, host of Rock N' Recovery, to talk about a life marked by addiction, loss, and redemption. From his teenage years on a farm to two decades in and out of prison, Mr. Bush shares how substance abuse and self-hatred shaped his early life. His story takes a heart-stopping turn when he finds his wife after suicide and is forced to confront God in the depth of his pain. That moment became the turning point that set him free from addiction for good.

We discuss how faith and accountability kept Mr. Bush sober when every reason to use was still there. He opens up about what it means to pray for change and see God answer in unexpected ways — and how he learned that deliverance doesn’t come in our time, but in His. We also tackle the dark realities of drug culture in prison, how manipulation and hopelessness fuel the cycle, and what real reform could look like for incarcerated men and women trying to change their lives.

Mr. Bush shares how parenting from prison taught him to lead with patience, and how sobriety has allowed him to rebuild his relationship with his children. He explains the heart behind his show Rock N' Recovery — a movement to wear sobriety and healing proudly like a badge of honor, not a scar of shame. Together, we talk about what it means to live a “rock-solid” recovery through faith, community, and purpose.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rock-n-recovery/id1833797789

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*Couple O' Nukes LLC and Mr. Whiskey are not licensed medical entities, nor do they take responsibility for any advice or information put forth by guests. Take all advice at your own risk.

Transcript

 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of a couple of nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and I am here with Jay Bush, a friend of mine I'd like to say, and uh, I was on his show Rocking Recovery. We're gonna talk about that, but more importantly, Mr. Bush, it was your birthday yesterday at the time of this recording, happy birthday.

What did you get into? I did not do anything special. I went and had some crab legs, uh, lasting king crabs and some dungeon ness, and that was my birthday, which I was totally stoked about because it's like one of the very few times I've ever been able to enjoy my birthday clean and sober. Yeah. Wow. Well, congratulations on that as well as sometimes it's nice to just, uh, sit back and relax.

You know, I think sometimes we get wrapped up on we need to have a big chaotic day for our birthday. It's nice to just take a little, a little breather there. So, yeah, and like I mentioned, uh, you and I have met before and we're working together on some projects with other people and we've decided, uh, I think we're gonna make you the president of all future projects.

So I can say that I worked with President Bush on some projects in mind. Now, come on. When did I get this memo? I still haven't got that memo yet. I like where you're going. Elect Bush. So the thing is, uh, every great leader starts out by being voluntold that they're already the leader and they had no idea.

That's, that's usually how the best leadership happens. Kind of. That's just, you know, I've never thought about it that way, but that is so true. Yeah. Voluntold is a real word. It's, uh, I picked it up in the military. I was voluntold that I would be, uh. I would become very familiar with that word. So, uh, it's always great when, um, you know, some military leader will be like, who wants to volunteer to stay and work an extra two hours and everyone just looks at each other and, uh, they're like, all right, you, you and you, thanks for volunteering.

It's like, my hand was not raised. Um, and, and sometimes if they're gonna take, um, the whole division, what they'll say is, you there in a green? You're, you're coming with me and we're all wearing green. And they're like, yeah, all of you're coming, you with the, with the green uniform. But yeah. Oh, that's, that's a classic right there.

I know. When I was married I used to get voluntold a lot. Yeah. Well you a same thing as the military. You signed up for that. Uh, whether you knew it or not, you signed about a line. So it, uh, I love it. Yeah, being married can be like in the military, but that's an episode on its own. You know, you and I are not here to give relationship advice today.

Absolutely not. But we are here to talk about recovery and addiction, especially your personal journey with this. So I'd love for you to get into the origins of that, of, you know, looking back now, uh, what kind of caused you, what were the factors that lined up for you to be led into addiction and then how that battle went.

Well, first of all, let me thank you for having me on your show. I think what we do as, uh, podcasters is amazing. The people that we reach is amazing. And you're one of the people that I've looked up to. You and Pete are a couple of people I've looked up, uh, to for a long time. And my personal journey with addiction started probably when I was around 13.

It was really nothing traumatic in my life. I was raised on a farm. I had good family. I was very connected with my family. You know, there was nothing really outstandingly negative or traumatic about the way I was raised. Yes, I was passed around from house to house, but that was my own fault, you know, I really didn't know my dad, my, my father, I'll say my father, uh, blood father until I was around 10 years old.

'cause he was in prison. Uh, but the, the person I do call dad raised me. Right. You know, as far as I was concerned, we lived on a farm. We did all the farm stuff, you know, I knew cows, horses, tractors, and knew how to work on stuff, whatever. And, and then that was my dad's side of the family and my mom's side of the family.

We had a big, huge community. I mean, our family was so big. I couldn't date anybody in my hometown because I might be related to 'em, but that, none of that really leads to trauma. It's more. I felt like I didn't belong. Okay. So I got into addiction and drugs and alcohol, and I probably have done everything except for the, the fentanyl at one point in a time in my life or another.

And it was mainly to fit in. I didn't like myself. I didn't like, uh, the way, I didn't like myself. I didn't have friends. I was, yeah, I played football. I did all the, the right things, you know, and I even quit doing things while I was in high school and sports and right, and all that, but I still didn't feel like myself.

And then, you know, drugs came along and I would get on them and I liked how I felt on drugs. So I liked and methamphetamine became my drug of choice. I liked how it let made me feel, you know, it, it could let me be angry, it could let me, it intensified my anger. It, it made me a person that I really didn't like, but I thought I needed to be that person to fit in and long and that goes into, then I went to prison, you know, right outta high school.

I went to prison literally in 1999 is when I went to prison. I graduated in like 98 or something like that. I don't know, one of those years, one of those 1990 years. And, you know, then I did the next 20 years of my life in prison. Wow. You know, not all at one shot. It was off and on. Uh, the longest stretch was for seven years, but altogether all together, time in prison was a little over 20 years.

So, you know, and a lot of that, and I didn't stop using while I was in prison either. I. I kept using while I was in prison. In fact, it became more prevalent in prison. I became the person that's, Hey Jay, you wanna go do this? Absolutely, I'll go beat that person up. I'll stab that. I became a person that I did not like.

I think I liked myself so less now that I was in more of a survival mode. So drugs in prison helped me survive to become a person I did not like. And getting out of that. So one of the many times I was in and out, I eventually had four kids. Uh, me and that person were never married, but I've still got four kids.

But I did get out and I did marry a different person. And little did I know that she struggled with her own addiction. And, uh, more than that she struggled with depression and, and, uh, just. July or June six 15th of last year, or six 15 2024 is we're in one of our, you know, drug craved probably coming down arguments.

I mean, we're getting along. The night before we got in an argument, I left the house to deescalate. I come back and I find her hanging in my closet, and that was my wife. I had to cut her outta my closet. I had to give her CPR. I had to call the, i, I, I couldn't call the paramedics. My neighbor actually heard me yelling and called the paramedics and the first responders, and they got there and I've already, I already had her out of the closet.

And I'm working on her, and I'm doing all the, the things I'm supposed to do, CPR and everything like that. And, you know, I really can't tell if she's breathing or not. The paramedics finally get there, the first responders get there. It didn't take them very long. It really quick. And they got her out and they were working on her outside.

And, uh, the cop's talking to me and he's like, Jay, you did everything right. You did everything you were supposed to do. You probably saved your wife's life. And by this time, the paramedics, she's breathing, you know, we got a pulse. You know, so I'm thinking that, yeah, I, okay, so she's gonna be there. Little did I know that she did too much damage to her arteries.

Uh, and she wasn't gonna make it. The blood was going into her brain, but it wouldn't come back out. And that's being said, that's the last day I used, that's the last day I've been high. That was my last day with drugs. And it happened for a reason. I understand this, it took me a long time to come to this understanding.

I had a really harsh talk with God. He is my savior. Uh, he is my higher power, Jesus Christ. But. At the time, yeah, I couldn't accept it and I didn't know what else to do. So literally I sat in my, I isolated myself to the front room in my kitchen of my house. 'cause I couldn't go to my room. 'cause every time I went back there, that's all I seen is my wife's figure hanging on her closet, right?

And I had drugs and I had all my tools to use in my bedroom. So that probably kept me sober, is not being able to go back to that room. And during that time I yelled at God, why this? Why that? If you're, I thought you said you'd never gimme too much, that I can't handle. Well this is too much. I cannot handle this.

And you're lying. And a bunch of other things that at the time I believed, at that time I believed, you know, and during that argument he, I had a phone call. Victim's advocacy is like, uh, you know, Mr. Bush, we're here for you too. I'm like, I'm not a victim though. I'm, I'm far from the victim in this yet. I was also, I didn't realize that, and it's still hard to accept me being a victim of somebody else committing suicide.

It really is hard to accept and, you know, it took me a long time and I still get the what if guilt, and I still get the what if shame some that, of course, I got to say goodbye to my, I got to say goodbye to my wife in the hospital. She was a organ donor. They kept her alive for seven days on a ventilator.

Uh, I got to do the honor walk with her. That was one of the best, that was one of the most emotional things I've ever gone through is when they, if nobody knows what an honor walk is. It's for organ donors when they're donating organs and they roll 'em into the operating room for the last time, they'll announce in the hospital, all available staff, uh, line up for honor walk, and they honor my wife's decision to give her organs to help somebody else.

And that I broke down there. I, I literally cried from one end to the next end of the hospital, this short walk, and got to walk him into the e emergency room for the last time. And, and, uh, then the nurse, the head nurse came out and she had a little vial, two little vials, uh, for last EKGs. So I've got two of her heartbeats.

I gave one to her sister. I've still got one. Uh, but uh, her last heartbeats I've got on paper and.

It's hard to go through all that and remain sober. It was harder to go through all that and not want to get high. You know, there's a difference between remaining sober and just not wanting to, you know, I remained because I didn't want to anymore, because now that addiction, my addiction took everything from me.

I mean, you know, say you lose everything. You do lose everything. Everything that I loved was gone, was gone. There was no reason for me to actually remain sober. Now, there's no reason for me to remain clean, none. It took my wife, it took everything I loved in the world. In the world. It was the key in the world from me.

Took it all. And what did I do? I stayed sober through it all. Throughout it all, I stayed sober. Throughout it all. I, I got clean. I created a place for other people like me to just connect. And that was the only reason I can remain that way is 'cause I was accountable to other people. Now I was, had to be accountable for myself.

I had to. And I feel my wife's presence a lot, you know, I know they say, oh, she's all around you. Oh, blah, blah. You know, all this really good stuff that we tell everybody. I tell people the same thing, but to actually have to live it and believe it and then to crack this life like that all the time, it gets, it gets old and it gets hard.

But not once have I thought about going back to drugs or alcohol as a source for me to cope. Because it did, it took everything that I loved in one swoop. And I don't know another way. To, you know, it happened for a reason. I couldn't have stopped it from happening. It is either gonna happen then or later if that's what God's will is.

It was gonna happen one way or another. And while I was in prison all the time, I pray for, you know, for God to take my addiction, for Jesus to say, uh, change me, to let my kids be happy, to make me a role model that my kids could look up to, that make me a person that my wife could look up to, make me the man that I'm supposed to be.

You know, all these things that we pray in prison, and I'm probably sure you probably prayed a lot of the same things. Being in the military in a bad situation, in the military, we pray for these things and then they don't happen. So what do we do? We go back to our addiction, we go back to whatever, whatever we're trying to pray from, we go right back to it.

Because it's not happening and the instant that we want it to. Right. Well, you know, it says in the Bible, it's not our time, it's his time. He'll answer 'em all. But in his time, he answered all of 'em in one time though for me, and the only way that would work for him to actually take my addiction and the only possible way that it would work, he took it.

And the only way I would listen, the only way that it would stick. And that was taking something that I cared about, something that I loved more than the addiction. And unfortunately it happened that way. But now my wife's not suffering. She's not suffering with depression, she's not suffering with any, any of her mental issues or her addiction.

She's not suffering anymore. She's happy. She's genuinely at peace now. And for me to actually accept that was hard. Because, you know, it sounds bad to me. 'cause now I'm praying that my wife, that happened to my wife, right. I wasn't, I just wanted everything to be okay and it's okay now, you know, and so my addiction's gone.

I've not once craved a drug since that day, since, uh, June 15th of last year. I have not once craved the drug. I have not once craved even thought about using, again, not once. And that's not to say that I haven't, uh, been in like a moment, a bad situation says I feel like going to do this. But it wasn't a craving.

It was something that I used to do to cope with something. Right? It was, it was more like a, I can cope with it this way because I know how, you know, it wasn't a crave, it wasn't a big difference from a craving into just doing something that you're used to. Big difference. And so not once have I craved anything.

And that right there coming from an addict for 30 years to not crave something, to not need to use it, to not want to use it was crazy for me. I'm still early in my recovery. This is, uh, yesterday, well the 15th was the 16th month. I've been clean and sober without a relapse. So continuous sobriety. Uh, and I had to learn a lot of sitting with myself, you know, for, because really I didn't have anybody, you know, all these friends and everything else that I thought I had that were in my phone contact list.

Not one, one of 'em has stayed in contact. One of them and all these others don't know what's happening to 'em. Do I care? Absolutely. But am I glad that they stayed away? Absolutely. Because who knows, I could have been right back into it because they could have said, Hey Jay, you know, we got this right here.

You want to try it? You know, it'd help you. And I'd probably say, yeah. So I'm glad they stayed away, you know, because being alone has taught me a lot. Being by myself has taught me a lot. Taught me that I can do it by myself, that I can be alone if I need to be. And when I say alone, I mean with nobody here, like physically alone, not community-wise alone, but physically and mentally disconnected from everybody isolated, you know?

And I didn't go to a rehab, I didn't go to a recovery. I didn't do any steps. I did it through God. God got me sober, God, and he has kept me sober. He has kept me in sobriety because he, he's got plans for people. He does, he really does. I might not know the plan. Nobody else might know the plan, but he's got plans and I really truly believe that.

And I know that it sounds terrible to me even, but we have to go through what we've been through to do what we're gonna do to be the people that he wants us to be. 'cause without that experience, without living the life as an addict, because that's what I am, I'm a drug addict, you know, without living that life, I wouldn't be able to talk about it to anybody.

I wouldn't be able to help the next person if I need to, you know, if I'm there to do anything, it's to bring awareness to that we can change. It's the, to bring a message of hope, to bring a message of hope that we can do it. Life's not over. Even though we may think it, we, in our worst cases, we may want it to be, but life's not over.

Life is far from over. If you're an addict, life is not over. You can recover. It takes some time, it takes a lot of time. Find what makes you want to be sober, you know? And it's hard. It's really hard for me to live with that. Still guilt that she's not here. And I wish, you know, there's a couple things that I regret in life.

You know, one of them is not getting clean and sober faster. Yeah. And one of 'em is not being the dad my kids needed at the time. So those are the only two things I actually truly regret about life so far. And because if I was able to, if I wasn't an addict myself in addiction, I could have noticed. Things about my wife's addiction faster instead of just saying, ah, you know, it's okay 'cause I'm an addict too, so I don't need to notice these things.

You know? Or I could have been there for my kids when I needed to be. And you know, those are two things I have to live with and I have to make it, you know, a amends with in within myself. I have to forgive myself for those. Nobody else can do it. I just have to, and I'll get there. I'll get there, and I still, nobody's perfect.

I still work on it daily. So it's, it's having to live with those things and being able to work through the those things and not letting those things set you back. That's what the true test of character is, is not having setbacks, not having situations that are gonna set you back, but having those situations and not letting them set you back.

Right. Yeah, that's why I'm in recovery and that's why I got sober. That's my story. There's a lot to unpack there. A lot. I wanna touch upon that, that last part being resiliency, you know, having those setbacks and pushing through, uh, regardless of that as to achieving the end goal, if not more. But I wanna thank you for sharing your story.

'cause no doubt those memories hold a lot of weight to them still. Obviously you've been through a lot of work, especially with your faith, but I know that, uh, memories, I get asked this all the time, you know, like, Mr. Whiskey, when you talk about some of the things on your show that have happened to you or in your life, does it ever get any easier?

And I think it does, but being easier shouldn't be mistaken with not feeling, um, those memories or those experiences. It's, uh, you know, the, there's still a weight to them. The concept of, um, unanswered prayers is actually, I just, I have it in the link in the description below. Philip Anthony Mitchell did an amazing sermon on unanswered prayers, and I really appreciated his, uh, vulnerability and authenticity on stage when he is like, there are things I've been praying 10 years for, I'm gonna go deeper, 20 years for, I've been praying and still unanswered about, uh, sometimes it's people who are fighting chronic illness or, um, other situations.

And he did a great sermon about, uh, specifically focusing on John the Baptist. You know, he went to, he went to, to jail, to prison, and, uh, ultimately behead. And, um, he talked about from, from the human perspective, if we were John, we'd probably saying like, he, he even, he kind of questioned, he said, Jesus Christ, you know, I know I said you were Messiah, but I've been in jail and you haven't come to rescue, rescue me.

I'm kind of having second thoughts. And, um, a lot of us are in that position, so I, I agree a hundred percent. Even in my case, I, I pray against the, uh, the affirmity of a addiction in my father's life. I pray for God to change my father's heart. And, uh, it's hard because I, I wake up every day and my father is still abusing and using both drugs and alcohol, and it's like, God, I'm, I'm out here doing your work every day.

And I, I pray for this almost daily, but I know that he has to get rid of it in the right time and right season. And it's, uh, it can be very difficult to lean on that understanding, you know? Um, like you mentioned, you hear this stuff all the time. You say it all the time, but then to actually live it, you know, to have your faith in action compared to just preaching it to others or saying it, it's very different.

So I think that's, uh, I'm, I'm glad you touched upon that. That's, that's how a lot of people feel, uh, for, for their addiction, for homelessness, for chronic illnesses, for, for all of that. It's very hard. A lot of people are atheists because of all the evil in the world, but I'd love to, a man once said, if there's so much evil in the world.

There has to be a, a balance of, of good. There has to be, there's absolute evil. There's absolute good. Uh, and that's a really easy analogy that I've always liked. And, um, you know, I, I like to also, like, if darkness is the absence of, of light and cold is the absence of heat, then evil is the absence of, of good, which means there has to be good.

Um, right. So I, I, I think, um, I'm gonna have that sermon in, in the description below as well as a song that I really like that is from, it was made by addicts talking about kind of like a song apologizing to all their friends who were addicts that they can no longer hang out with. And it, it is a very, um, touching heavy song about, you know, I want to answer your phone calls, I wanna go hang out with you again.

I wanna see what you're up to. But who I was when I was hanging out with you isn't who I am now and it's not who I want to be now. And I can't have you bringing any of that stuff back in my life, you know? Um, and they say like. We were on the same page then, but every chapter ends, you know, I'm moving on to the next chapter in my life.

So, um, yeah, and I, I think I've had a lot of very bone chilling, heavy hearted stories on this show, especially when it comes to suicide. But I think in your case, that's definitely one of the, that i, that, that false hope you had gotten, that you, you did say for her it's gonna be okay. That would be even worse than if they had just told you from the beginning, you know, she's passed away.

So that has to be so painful. And I think it's, I, I'll call it, so ironically beautiful, it's poetic almost that when you chose to stop using was when you, you kind of had no reason left to not use, like you mentioned, you know, like when you had the wife, you, you had the kids. It's like, you think now I should stop using, I should be here for my family.

And it was, now I have nothing left at that point. Some people will push through rock bottom and just. You know, either commit suicide themselves or just go deeper into addiction. So, so to have that be your, uh, wakening moment, it's just so powerful to me that when you had the least reason to is when you had the most discipline and, and, and, you know, realization.

But I want to kind of touch upon, there's a few different things. Um, one thing I want to address, I guess we'll start with it, which is the drug culture in prison. Um, I haven't been in Prisoned. Um, I'm not even gonna say yet 'cause I don't want to be. Hopefully it never happens. No, no. So I, I have yet to be in prison and hopefully never will be.

But you mentioned drug use while in prison. Um, different systems of, of doing favors or, or ask for other people in order to get stuff. And I, I think that's really interesting. I think it's something that we hear about a lot, but not a lot of us have experienced. So can you tell us a little bit about like Yeah.

Not, I guess how people were getting drugs in prison or like how that, that, that all of all works. First of all, drugs in prison are, they're re they're so easy to get in prison. It's easier to get 'em in prison than it is on the street. Wow. I mean, it's hard to believe that, but just, it's ironic. It's very ironic.

And some of the most widely used ones are some of the ones that are readily available like suboxone. I mean, when the, the black market trade for a strip of Suboxone is $200 a strip, you're gonna have people finding ways to bring that in. You know, and I hate to say it a lot of the times. It's the correctional guards that are bringing those stuff in.

Nine times outta 10. If there's a good quantity, a good supply of any illegal drugs, it is from through visitation or the prison guards themselves. Wow. Is that, is that bribery, is that related to bribery? How are the, it's, uh, manipulation so it's, uh, compromising them. So let's say, uh, I'm talking to, uh, a guard and he's chewing gum, you know, just chewing gum.

Hey, uh, lemme get a piece of that gum, he might say a thousand times. Or Lemme get a cup of coffee, hurry, think he can bring us some coffee, something really, really, really tiny. Mm-hmm. Just to open that door. And once that door gets opened, it's like, okay, how far can we push it? How far can we push it? We'll keep pushing and pushing and pushing.

Until now I've got something to hold over their head to say, Hey, if you don't do this on this certain day. You know, uh, I'm gonna tell everybody about this, you know, and that's acceptable. That's an acceptable form of, uh, what do you call it? Not bribery, but, uh, manipulation and just, or, and a lot of times you say it's kind of like, would you say it's blackmail?

Almost blackmail, yeah. And a lot of times it's the fe there's just as many females as males to bringing this stuff in. The females, in men's prisons are more easy to manipulate. I I, I, there's nothing against females in men's prisons. Right. But the females are more easily compromised than a male is in prison.

Hmm. And that's because you've got 500 guys hitting on the same chick, day in, day out, day in, day out. And if it's a chick that might not feel good about herself. And the guys will figure this out real quick. As a manipulator, you'll figure this stuff out. Who's more susceptible to it or not? Oh, I'm not gonna pick the, you know, the street five instead of the street two, you know?

Uh, but they're gonna pick the one with more issues that are more friendly, with people that are more open to communication and just slowly over time work on it. And once you have that door open, it's just, they will have them on their payroll basically to, so to speak, until they mess up. Wow. You know, until one or the other's busted, or, you know, something happens, you know?

Yeah. It's, it's interesting. I actually just watched a movie, it's called The Roof Man. It just came out, uh uh, maybe a week or two ago at the time of this recording, about. A man who escaped from, from, from prison and basically all with, uh, uh, Channing Cha, whatever his name is. Channing Tatum. Yeah, it was, it was really good.

It was based on a, a true story. The guy had, uh, robbed about 42, 40 something McDonald's and, um, burger Kings and other franchises going through their roof. And, uh, it was a sad story 'cause um, he was like, I think it was special forces or military, and, uh, he just couldn't adjust to the civilian world, couldn't get a job to provide for his family, and he just wanted the money to make his daughters happy and, and, and has his wife's respect.

Um, so it, it was sad. Um, but essentially, yeah, the, the way, um, I don't wanna spoil that too much, but basically his thing was like, if you are in prison and you keep your head low, but you do a good job, the guards kind of forget that you're in there for a reason, is what he said. They forget that you're in there for a reason.

They treat you just like a, a coworker, a person at some point. Mm-hmm. And then they, uh, they, they drop their guard at some point, so. To the degree of what you were talking about, it's like you had to go in there as a guard and just be silent. Don't, don't talk back to them. Just ignore it. But that's very hard to do, especially in the case you've got hundreds of people talking to you and, uh, especially if in in the case you mentioned a, a woman from insecurities and, um, I, I think it as most respectful way I can say this, I think certain personalities do that kind of job.

I feel like it absolutely. I feel like absolutely. I don't wanna say there's not beautiful confident women joining the police force or correctional officer positions, but not a lot of young, beautiful women grow up saying, I want to be a correctionals officer. Right. Um, typically they have a, a story and a background to why they got there.

So That's, that's so interesting though that you, that they would be more common in, in prison than, than outside of it. And it's just, um, it's sad because some people purposely go to prison to sober up. Some people were like, just lock me up. It's the only way I can be sober. Forget rehab. Absolutely. I just need to go to do a hard time.

And to then be in an environment that you thought was free of drugs and then not that can be, uh, you know, obviously hindering to your, your plans. And how would you say, so you spent multiple times in different prisons or was it always kind of the same area? I, so there was, this was all in Colorado, so in my prison career, I think there was like 22 year prisons in Colorado.

I've been to 20 of them. Wow. You know, you start at the top, you go down to, you start at max, you know, medium or max security. And depending on your point, level, you'll be taken to the prison of whatever point level you're able to go to. And if you screw up, you go to a higher custody. If you do well, you'll go to a lower custody.

I normally was a screw up, so I was normally in higher custody. Uh, you know, and it's, you know. Uh, the lower custody prisons let you go outside the gates and work. And their biggest trade was tobacco now. Okay. Yeah. Like you could go out there and a lot of the cops chewed or smoked or whatever and they really didn't care.

As long as they didn't see it. It was like an unofficial, don't get caught. 'cause if you do, then I'm gonna have to write you up, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just don't let me see it. If I don't know about it, I can't fucking catch you. Just don't let me know about it. I know it's gonna happen. Just don't let me know.

Know the same, in the military they call it, uh, my roommate would call it. What is it? Um. Plausible deniability. Plausible. Yes. Yes. Those are the two words I was looking for. Plausible deniability. You know, that's what he, that's what, that's what my roommate would say all the time. You know, my one roommate, he was, as long as I don't see it, I can't say whether he did or not, you know?

Right. Exactly. And that's, that's a lot of the, and those were actually the, the cos, the correctional officers, the guards that had more respect because, you know, you knew exactly where they're coming from. They didn't overstep their authority. They didn't enforce their authority. They just let you decide whether you're gonna screw up or not.

You know? Yeah. Don't make me do my job because I will, you know? Right. And it was hands down, as long as they stayed that way across the board, there was no special treatment. Those are the, the ones that garnered respect because they're not using their authority to overreach in their authority. Yeah. You know, a hundred percent.

And so it was, it became a respect issue. Like let's say I tattooed, I did drugs, I sold drugs in prison and I did a lot of tattooing in prison. I fought a lot. Everything, I did all the bad guy stuff in prison, you know, and when it came to the respect level between me and certain other CO and certain guards, they would say, you know, Hey, don't get out on my shift.

You know, respect that. Done not gonna do nothing on your shift. And, and the, it went two ways because, you know, when they would have to tear my room part, do cell search, or tell your tear your room part, they were respectful about it. You know, if you don't give them shit, they're not giving you shit. If you make it easy for them to do their 12, eight to 12 hours a day, then they're gonna make it easy when you're on their shifts, you know?

Right. When they're on and they don't have to do things. If they don't have to do their job, they won't, you know, it's not that they're not doing their job, they won't go above. Uh, overreached their authority, right? Because there's a lot of people, unfortunately, who abuse their power in the military. We had some of the security guys, uh, got bullied as a kid clearly, and, uh, they were mm-hmm.

Taking it out. Some of them thought they were marine drill sergeants and were like, dude, you're on a Navy ship and you need to calm down. You're acting like, it's like it's our lunch break right now. What are you doing? And, um, the worst were the gate guards. So almost mm. Post after nine 11. Uh, 'cause I've talked to some pre nine 11 veterans and it wasn't as much, but now pretty much every entry point at a base is, is, is guarded, right?

And, uh, you gotta scan your id do this and that. And some of those gate guards go above and beyond. You know, they will just make your life hell instead of just scam my badge and let me on. And they, they think they're police officers and we always tell 'em, you're a glorified crossing guard. Get outta my way because I, I had a guy.

Every gate guard was cool with me in the sense that my tags had expired, but South Carolina sent me paperwork saying, we ran out of the material to make new tags. Your registration is renewed. Here's paperworks for if, if you get pulled over, you are awaiting the materials from South Carolina. You are good.

Every guard was cool with that. They read the papers. It it, it was a legal document from DMV and then that one guy, that one guy who said, you're not allowed on base. You have to park, you know, a mile away from your barracks room and walk through the ghetto to get here. I said, how am I supposed to do my job?

You're not gonna let me on base. And, um, it wasn't the base to go do work. Is the sad part. It was the base where I, I lived because if it was where I worked, then I could have called the higher ups. Then I could have had them be like, Hey, you're, you're blocking our people from coming in and doing nuclear operations.

You got knocked that off. Right? This was just to go back to my barracks room and they were like, you can go sleep on the ship if you need to. You can go park over there. This is ridiculous. But of course, it was always like, every gay card would was cool. And you just got that one guy who's like, no, I I'm gonna make your life healthier.

Your life's miserable. Yeah. You know, uh, they would do vehicle inspections. Sometimes, uh, sailors would get caught with a, a knife longer than the, the blade allowed on a military base. And the guard would be like, why do you have this? They're like, oh, I just, I forgot about it. I always keep it in the car.

I'm not bringing it onto the base, you know, to do anything malicious. I'm not bringing it to my room. And some, most of the guards would be like, okay, that's fine. If it's a, it's a blade, you keep in the car, whatever. Then you had that one guy, I'm confiscating this. You're never getting in the back. You know, uh, get the hell outta here.

Power trips. I knew a guy who became a correctional officer, quote. 'cause he enjoyed beating people and cursing people. Yes. And he goes, it makes me so proud to look a murderer in his eyes and tell 'em I'm gonna screw his mother, you know, sideways. And he can't do anything about it, and he wants to spit at me and get in my face.

And then I just beat him. And I said, I don't know, dude. I they're people too. You know, people forget that, that, that everyone in prison, yes, they're there for a reason, but they're also human beings. Uh, to your degree. Why do you care if I smoke a cigarette? It's your tobacco. I'm a grown man. Yes. I made some poor decisions.

Uh, it's not your place to judge really. Uh, but yeah, it's, I've had a couple, uh, you know, formerly incarcerated persons on my show and we've talked big discussions about reform for prison because there's a lot of stuff that's outdated. Um, especially we're the guest I had on Great episode. No, Asher, check it out y'all if you want.

He's working with governors to try and get better mental health reforms and faith reforms in, in prison. He talked about prison was, uh, set up for failure because he said most people return because they got out. They had no money, no job. People didn't respect them, people didn't wanna hire no skills. No, they go back to stealing or, or to, to commit and crime back to, right.

So he wants it where you, you can maybe be put on parole at the end to work, a small job to build up some funds and get some skills or have a program within the prison. But also, I mean, he was talking about the mental health side of it and it was just terrible. And I think one of those things that has to be cautious, they were locking people up so they would.

Give you solitary confinement for extended periods, five or more years for mental ill patient people where they're gonna put 'em in a 24 hour, seven days a week management control unit because they have a mental breakdown or they have a mental issue that is, they're so, they're not proper for, you know, they're gonna get taken advantage of because lifestyle in prison people are, uh, assholes, but they would've got taken advantage or used in general population.

So they'll put 'em in a management control unit and say it's for safety reasons and that's just gonna deteriorate the person's mental health even more, you know, instead of having a prison or a facility that is for mentally ill patients, not just the, you know, state run hospital, but. Uh, because they need that reform and that structure in prison, 100% they use, they use solitary, the whole as a, uh, mental institution.

Right. And my thing is, and understand the concerns you have to be, you have to have a filter system because otherwise prisoners are going to to malinger to fake mental illness to get out of Yeah. Whatever they're at. So you have to have a very thorough system and process of filtering through Yeah.

Mental health checks. Um, so I understand the caution with that being abused, but I, I do think it's important. And what, what would you say, based on all the time you spent in prison, what is the biggest change you'd like to see happen?

That's a good question. I would say, uh, more rehabilitate for the ones that. Are going to get out. There needs to be less interaction with the people that are gonna be there for life. Mm. You know, so if you're around lifers all the time, you become, you become in this mindset that you're gonna become a lifer and you go out to the street thinking the same thing, you're gonna re-offend faster.

You know, you, there's custody levels and custody re issues for, you know, levels of, uh, confinement, uh, you your point system on purpose. But when you're housing people that are in there for five years with people that are in there for 20, 40 lifetime period time period, they're gonna learn prison from these lifers and then that's what they're gonna know.

And a hundred percent you, you are who you are around. Yeah. You become the people that you hang around. And if you're hang, if. A person's hanging around with lifers, convicted murderers, sex offenders, whatever else the case may be. Violent criminals you're gonna become and not being a violent criminal, just having a drug offense or whatever the case may be, and you're hanging around violent criminals, you're gonna become a violent criminal.

Right. People who don't care what happens to them because they're already stuck in for life. But you have stuff to get back to. Yes. So I agree a hundred percent. That's actually that and pre-release has to be more geared towards success. Not just if I can balance a checkbook because let's be real, I got Google, I don't need a balance damn checkbook no more.

You know? Yeah. That's really not a life skill, you know, finding a job, having the proper employment places. 'cause a lot of people will say they hire felons, yet they only hire certain types of felons. If you have a, a retail theft on your, your criminal history. You will no longer work in any retail establishment across the board.

Yeah. So there goes thousands of potential employment opportunities because of a, a pack of gum or, you know, whatever you stole from a store. Yes, yes. There's got to be accountability for that person. You did steal it, but now you're gonna punish him for the rest of his life for something that he probably did while he was high.

So there was an extenuating, certain circumstances to some crimes, like, you know, retail theft, retail crime. It should not discount you from every single job you can try to get from now on. Right. You know, because that's us. We're two different people. I've been in prison. You've not been in prison. Okay, great.

E everything else. Who cares when you go to fill out that application and have you had a felony? You get to mark the checkbox? No, I have to mark it. Yes. And explain it. You know, and I could be overqualified for the job. And where you're like, eh, just another job to me, you're gonna get the job before I will, because that ones little simple box that marks check mark.

Yeah. Well, and the thing is you talk about like follows you for the rest of the life and it's like, you already held me accountable. Like I served my time. Like what was the point of serving the time if it wasn't going to change anything essentially. If that makes sense. So yeah, I think and that, that goes into that hopelessness of, okay, well I'll just go back to crime.

If people are only ever gonna see me as a criminal, then I'm just gonna fulfill that. That's, I'm gonna bess a mentality a lot of people have. Yeah. Um, and unfortunately, so yeah. And I wanna talk about, uh, prison and parenting. You mentioned a couple kids there and, um, I'd love to know, obviously those relationships were restrained by that, but how were you able to parent from prison in between prison and then.

Post prison. And then most importantly, now with sobriety, how parenting has evolved and changed throughout that. Well, so while I was in prison, they have, they're, they've got certain programs, uh, you know, you can take your parenting classes, whatever else, but they've got certain programs to help you connect with your kids.

They've got family night, as in Colorado, they did, they have family night for visitation. That's just for, uh, inmates with, uh, convicts with, uh, kids and wives and whatever type of family, a free night that they can come connect outside of everybody else visiting. So it's more geared towards family. Um, they had the, this read a book program, so I got to once a month read a book to all my kids, and it was on tape or CD or recording.

So they would get the book for free and they'd get the recording for free. There was video visitation, there was phone visitation, a lot of phone calls. You know what? There has to be a lot of understanding and not anger on my part. I can be angry at myself. I can be angry at whatever my kid might be doing or not doing, but I can't show that anger in any way because really then they're going to equate dad being angry while he is on the phone with me.

Or mom's gonna be angry while she's on the phone with dad. Mm-hmm. You know, that becomes a, uh, you know, something that they don't look forward to. Yeah. Instead of looking forward to having to talk with dad and tell 'em how his day was, now it's, oh, you mean I gotta talk to dad? You know, he is just gonna get angry.

I don't wanna make dad angry. I don't wanna hear dad mad. So there's gotta be a, some, a real big understanding that no matter what they're doing out there, you really don't have a say in it right now. Yeah, you really cannot control anything, your kids, your wives, anybody else is doing out there while in prison.

You cannot do that. You cannot be two places at once. You can't be the controlling the adult figure in prison. Now you're just a voice on a phone. Mm. And really that's way, the way you have to think about it is because once they equate this voice on the phone with dad, now is that voice gonna be happy and fun all the time?

Or is that voice gonna be mad and angry all the time? Which one would you want to talk to? Right. You know, and you gotta think of it in, in very simple terms. As you know, there's nothing I can do about it. There's some situations are out 100% outta our control. Now you can tell them, I used to do homework on the phone with my kids, you know, and dad, you know, I need to do homework.

Well, let's sit down, let's do homework then, you know. This, this is real easy. I can have this conversation on the phone all day long. Let's do homework. You know, you want me to read again? Absolutely. I'll read a book to you. You wanna tell me what happened in school? Absolutely. Tell me what happened in school.

You know, I'm not gonna, I, I couldn't get mad at 'em and I learned this late in prison. You know, unfortunately, I didn't learn it early enough that no matter what, I could not, I, there was no controlling the situation. None. And as much as I tried, and the more angry I got, the less I was able to talk to my kids, you know, because they didn't want to talk to me.

Mm-hmm. Because all they knew was the angry side. Now all they heard was the angry words. It's a whole lot harder to forget angry words than it is positive words. Yeah. You know? So. Uh, any parent or any person that's in prison and that has kids right now that could possibly listen to this, or the parent that's outside with the parent on the inside, just know that you have to be very, very understanding of the tonality of your voice and what you're saying.

You know? 'cause you can tell, you can correct 'em without being mad, without being in your voice and the tonality and your speech and your, however el how you sound. You can correct 'em without being angry at them. You know what I mean? For sure. It's a, it's a tough position to be, and you essentially it is, is your, you know, your parental power and you kind of just gotta wait for, for when you get out, which, you know.

Speaking of, so you're, you're sober now. You're out now. What age ranges are your children now? Are they kind of grown up or are they still kids? Yes. So 2009 is, is, so that's 16 down to 2000 thir. 14, 13. So I've got a 12 to 16-year-old. I've got four of 'em. All, all between the ages of 12 and 16. Yep. So a 12 or 1615.

13 and 12. Losing track. Yeah. No, yeah. Yeah. It, it's, I I know their names Tristan Mason, Avery Abel in order. Yeah. That's good. That's, that's also up for, you don't wanna forget your kids' names, you know. Oh, I know their middle names too. You know, don't ask me right now. 'cause I might have to use Brain Power, but Yeah.

No, but that's good. Um, I, I, to me that's beautiful because you, you still have time and, and a chance with them, you know? Yeah. If they had all. Grown up while you were out. It's a, a much harder relationship to build, I imagine. Right. So that's that's good. And, um, I think they're also close enough to that age, at least your older ones where they can kind of understand what you've been through and be proud of where you are now.

So that's, that's beautiful. And, um, how has your life shaped the way you approach parenting in terms of like, uh, maybe raising your kids to not repeat your mistakes? How has it affected your parenting mindset? You know, if they make my mistakes, mistakes, and I, I can't say good or bad things about it, they're mine.

I can give them advice. I can, you're gonna have to learn for yourself though. If I can make it easier to learn for you, then Absolutely. Here, here's the dangers of what I've done. You know, don't saying don't do it, but I'm gonna give you all the information. The good, the bad. Probably more bad than good because Right.

You know, I don't want you to glorify it, first of all, but if you tell 'em straight not to do it, they're gonna rebel 90% of the time and just do it anyway. Yeah. If you give 'em all the information to make up their own minds, kids are smart. They know. They know that this put dad in jail prison for a very long time and that we didn't get around, we weren't able to see 'em.

Do I really wanna do that? Probably not, you know? But don't over overly say no, no, no, no. Because guess what? Why are you keep saying no, I'm gonna go try it now, because I wanna see what you're saying No to all the time. Yeah. But if you give 'em all the right information at the right time, not too soon, not too young, you know, not too old, but give 'em the right information at the right time and let 'em make their own decisions and support them.

Even if it's the wrong decision, never not support their decision because they're individuals and they're gonna make their own decision. You know, it doesn't have to be the right one. It let's be real. No of none of us have made the right decision all the damn time, and we're probably not going to, not all the time, you know, but with the information, it helps us come to a better decision if we have all the information, all the information I can give, you know, to my kids, it's gonna help them in their decision making for sure.

And. I wanna move into, I mentioned in the very beginning, your, your podcasting now. Your podcasting. Oh shit. And here we go. Rock and recovery. Um, rock and recovery. Yeah. Yeah. Let's get into the, let's just get, start it with the name of it. Um, you know, 'cause uh, with the logo, uh, it's a skull with the headphones and the black background and the rock and recovery, it comes off very rock as in the music genre.

Was, was that the theme or is it rock? Like an actual rock? It's like rock your recovery. Like, don't be scared to be in recovery. Also be solid in it as a rock solid. As a rock in recovery. Yeah. You don't, there's no shame in it. We lived in shame for, if you've been a drug addict, you've lived in shame long enough.

Rock that shit. Like wear it out in the open, do it free, do it out loud, you know? Yeah. There's a little bit of music I love. Fucking rock and roll, you know, that's what I, that's my jam, so to speak. You know? Yet being a rock, being somebody dependable, like solid as a rock, you know, in recovery, that's amazing.

That's, you can do that and people will notice and see that, and then all of a sudden they'll gravitate towards what you have. You know, why is he doing so well in his recovery? Why is he being a rock in his recovery? The foundation of his recovery, you know, is a rock solid. I've got a rock solid recovery.

I'm gonna rock that recovery. So keep rocking. ROCK, little n Recovery, you know? Yeah. Just because you've gotta be, you've gotta start your foundation on something. And if you're foundation in recovery is solid as a rock with good recovery habits, good bones, you're gonna go far, you're gonna do well. Yeah.

It's interesting. Now you got me thinking about what I was thinking, like rock and roll. I was like, and the term rockstar, I was like, where did that originate from? I'm gonna have to research that later. Like, why did we start saying rock and roll? You're a rock star. Like I, I, I gotta go research that. Uh, rolling.

Uh, what is it? The Rolling Stones. Uh, rolling Rock gathers no moss. So don't be at still, you know? Yeah. So rock and roll. I don't know. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. It's something to ask. You know, another friend of ours, Ray, Ray Star. Yeah, there's a, uh, I just started thinking about it now, but yeah. So I know you, yeah.

So you mentioned the, the name of your podcast is kind of the origin behind it, and can you tell us a little bit more about the content on it as well? Absolutely. It's just spreading a message of hope, whether it be mental health struggles, whether it be recovering from life in general, whether it be a drug and alcohol addiction, being just bringing awareness to it and offering them hope.

Uh, a lot of people come on my podcast just to tell their stories and just tell, Hey, you know what? Here's my bottom, here's this. I hit the rock bottom and now I'm rising above. And I've got this story of hope because the more people out there that are sharing their hope at success, hope for another, uh, different type of life, their light.

The more somebody is gonna connect with that person, the more diverse your audience, the more diverse your guests, the more different stories of people being that hope, bringing that encouragement, bringing that message of it's not over, it's gonna connect somewhere. And that's what I have been led to do, you know, is just being that person that's gonna help somebody else.

And this is way I do it. Being a rockstar. Yeah, yeah. You know, I, it actually brings me back to what you said earlier that I wanted to touch upon, which is you mentioned like there there's more life, there's time to recover. And I want to add onto that by saying it's never too late. I've had people in my show who were addicted for over 30 years.

Most of their life. And so I never have, um, no hope because I've had people in their seventies quit addiction. Um, I've had people on the show quit all kinds of different addictions. I've covered so many different types of recovery that worked for different people, so it's never too late. Uh, one, it's a matter of do you want it or not?

And two, it's finding the recovery that works best for you. Absolutely. Everyone gets, you know, a tunnel vision on aa. That's a great program, obviously. Yeah. It's existed for a long time for a reason, right? Yep. Successful it might not be for you. And you gotta explore those other options, which is why J and I host these kinds of podcasts and have these discussions with people to highlight their recovery journeys as well as other methods.

But it's never too late. I shared recently when I was helping host a domestic violence awareness and sexual assault awareness conference for the book launch of Warriors of Hope. What I spoke about was, it's a Latin phrase, doom, Spiro Sparrow. It's, uh, famous, made famous by South Carolina. It's on their license plates and their merchandise, and it means in English while I breathe, I hope.

And of, of course, when I was in the military, we all thought I was cringe. We'd make fun of the time. Well, this guy is breathing and open. Um, but now that I work in this space, I have found a lot of beauty in it because while you're still breathing, as you said earlier, always the beginning, always as you're living there, there, that means there's going to be time and opportunities.

Um, life. People have described it on my show as a series of ebbs and flows, you know, or you could say a rollercoaster, a river, whatever you wanna say, it's up, down, all around. It's a sign of wave. It's oscillating, it's, uh, going like this and that, you know, but there's going to be those, those points where you can rebuild and recover.

And I, I think it's never too late to recover. I think sometimes the issue is we get so tunnel visioned on the recovery we want, and sometimes it's not the recovery we need. And sometimes we set bars too high or too perfectionist, and we actually hinder our own recovery, or we hinder ourself in a lot of things by being our own worst enemy.

I, I think that's the, the case in a lot of things. But yeah. With that being said, we're gonna have your podcast link in a description below for people to check out. You're also on social media, uh, under your name and your show. I definitely encourage people to check it out and then. What would you want your final message to be?

I think we've covered a lot of great things from, from prison life to parenting, to addiction. What would be, I guess, your piece of life advice that kind of is tied to everything together or even separate. It doesn't matter how you're living it, people look at you. People are always on the, the look, always noticing.

So just be the best you. It doesn't matter what you're doing in life. Do it the best. Hopefully it's the right thing and not out to hurt people. 'cause you know what you, everybody's heard that saying, hurt people. Hurt people. Mm-hmm. I have a better one. It's changed people change people and mm-hmm. It really is.

Whether it's change for the good or change for the bad change, people will change people and it's, so that's all it's about. I'm just trying to help promote that change. You can do it. I'm not gonna change you for you, you know, take the first steps and start changing your life. It's worth living. It doesn't get any easier.

It gets less hard. Let's just put it that way. It gets less hard. Amen. I agree a hundred percent. So, Mr. Bush, so great to have you here. Like I said, I, I've been looking forward to this 'cause we connected a little bit on your show and I was excited to focus in on your story and highlight you. So again, thank you so much for what you're doing in this space and for your time today.

I appreciate what you're doing and you know, all of us, there needs to be more because the more our message of hope and strength there is, eventually somebody will pick up on it, you know, and the more people that do it, I don't have to be the top podcast. And you don't have to be the top podcast. Who cares?

As long as that one person is getting the hope that they need, that's all that matters. That's all that matters. Keep, it's not about the numbers. Gotta keep up those numbers though. We gotta keep up those numbers. Yeah. It's not about the numbers, it's about who is listening. You know, it's about who is listening and, uh, I put that forward all the time, you know?

Yeah. You could reach a million people and the message doesn't, it goes in one ear and out the other, and you could reach one person who's suicidal and, and they decide not to take their life. And that's more important. So, um, for all the podcasters out there, for whatever you're doing, maybe it's a nonprofit, maybe it's a book, um, you know, it really is about the impact in, in its quality, not quantity.

Right. It is a, it's a measure of what does it actually do, not just how many people it reaches. But again, Mr. Bush, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Uh, you know, the birthday celebration, part two. Uh, yeah. Glad to, glad to share this time with you and we'll be working together in the future. No doubt.

So, until next time, absolutely. All right. You take it easy. Have a great day. Thank you for having me on your show. I think what you're doing is wonderful and I really do feel honored to be a guest on your show.